View Full Version : Buying on Golf Del Sur. Should I get a lawyer to oversea the purchase?
Hi all
We are about to pay a deposit on an apartment on Golf del sur. Tha estate agent is golf del sur property. Here is a copy of the mail he sent today and i was hoping somebody could help and advise me.....
After the conversation this afternoon, the procedure is as follows:
We need to receive a 10% deposit(7500 Euros), in order to go ahead with the paperwork in preparation for the Notary and to also take the property off the market. May I strees that the owner has requested this to be done as soon as possible. A Solicitor is not necessary, as the signing of the deeds is done in front of the Notary, who is the maximun level of authority here in Spain. The property search will already have been done by the Gestor we use(This ensures that there is nothing outstanding on the property). We will need your full name and address and copy of your passport to draw up the private sale contract. Please confirm your arrival date and length of stay. We shall be arranging for you to go for your NIE number. I attach the bank details that you will need. Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Kind regards.
What do we do?? solicitor or no solicitor??
Thanks Deb
Andy0210
27-01-2012, 22:56
Personally i would find a neutral solicitor to look everything over before you do anything, might cost you a few hundred euros for his time but it could save you thousands if there was any problems however i am no expert, i think this is a question for forum member C.I.M he is a Spanish Mortgage adviser here he may even be able to vouch for or against the estate agent if he has dealt with them.
Thanks Andy....how do i get intouch with him then?
Andy0210
27-01-2012, 23:19
He is normally on here most evenings or have a look here.
http://tenerifemortgagebroker.com/contact-us
Sundowner
27-01-2012, 23:26
Hi Deb,
As it is a Friday night C.I.M. might be having a scotch or 3. But I am sure he will be informed of your need to discuss and be in touch over the weekend.
Do not let anyone rush you into paying a deposit!
Best of luck with your potential purchase.
Santiago
27-01-2012, 23:28
Have your read your request and as Andy had signed off thought I would give you the information he suggested. CIM can be found on the forum and you could send him a private message. However, if your need for help is urgent, try him at the following email, phone or actual address: http://tenerifeestateagents.net/contact-us/. I do hope he will be able to help you, but I also agree with Andy that you should certainly have someone with a legal background in Tenerife to look over the paperwork before you sign anything.
Definitely an independent person to advise - no question about it. If it turns out that you could have done without - just be happy!
I think CIM usually recommends using a lawyer & no doubt delderek will be along recommending Janet soon too :)
However, your total purchase price is 75.000, and most lawyers seem to charge around 1.000 (and not do a lot for that either :()
What the agent says is correct - searches will have been done and there certainly is nothing like the usual conveyancing rigmarole there is in the UK (and Ireland).
Questions you should be asking yourself - are you getting a mortgage here (if yes, the bank should then be involved and checking things anyway) ... is the property more than 20 years old (will need recertification to get the electricity changed to your name), ask the agent now for minutes of the last community AGM to see what are the problems on the complex (lawyers don't often think of this)
It's a buyers market ... don't let anyone rush you into paying a deposit.
I wrote this post http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?12874-What-is-the-legal-process-of-selling-an-apartment-in-Tenerife&p=135957&viewfull=1#post135957 in response to someone wondering what the selling process is like - it might help you decide ... feel free to pm me with any questions
Would you buy a property in the uk without a lawyer dont think so the deposit seems high to me ours was 2000 euro as said dont let them rush you its a buyers market heres someone else who speaks better english than me and you can trust its GONZALEZ & BARCO ABOGADOS S.B
, San Miguel de Abona 38639 - Santa Cruz de Tenerife
(+34) 922736156 they not too far from golf del sur David
Would you buy a property in the uk without a lawyer dont think so the deposit seems high to me ours was 2000 euro as said dont let them rush you its a buyers market heres someone else who speaks better english than me and you can trust its GONZALEZ & BARCO ABOGADOS S.B
, San Miguel de Abona 38639 - Santa Cruz de Tenerife
(+34) 922736156 they not too far from golf del sur David
It's actually very difficult to buy a property in the UK without a lawyer - not so here as the system differs ... likewise, the authorities in the UK won't let you buy a property without a proper survey - here, no such thing really exists, which is a great pity :(
Thanks for the recommendations, nice to know I am a "trusted" person on here :)
I do run an estate agency here in Tenerife and that is my primary business right now although the mortgages are still going strong but mortgage business is mainly focused in mainland Spain rather than Tenerife via the websites I have there.
So far as purchasing, if you are ready to buy then you can either pay a reservation fee to take the property off the market (usually around 2,000€) or just pay a 10% deposit straight away. Whatever you do I would pay it to an independent third party who will ensure all of the terms and conditions of the contract are adhered to. If anything is amiss later then you have no problems getting your money back that way.
Personally I dont mind holding reservations if the buyer wants to take the property off the market immediately but has not yet sourced a lawyer/gestor but I do not hold client deposits.
There are plenty of good gestors and lawyers around who will represent you for 1,000€ - sometimes less. It is money well spent if you are new to property purchasing in Tenerife.
Looking at the email, if you want to be picky, the fact that you are signing at a notary really does not offer much protection. He will simply read out the contract and ask if you understand it. Agents will generally be looking at you and nodding at this point :)
I´m not sure why any checks would have been carried out on the property so far other than a Nota Simple being ordered. Estate Agents are unlikely to spend time "doing checks" without first having some commitment from a purchaser so these will need to be carried out to ensure community fees, IBI tax, basura, electricity, water etc are all up to date. If not the amount to pay these off will need to be retained from the money paid to the vendor of the property. Same if there is a mortgage or any embargoes against the property. However, there may have been a previous buyer who pulled out for some reason after all the checks were made??
Whilst not set in stone I generally ask for a reservation fee to be paid (this can also be paid to an independent third party) and then draw up a sales contract between buyer and seller. This contract should set out all of the terms and conditions of the sale. You can let the agent know how long you need to send the 10% deposit over, how long you need to complete etc. If you need a mortgage this should be one of the conditions of the sale going ahead so there is no risk of losing your deposit if you cannot get a mortgage or your mortgage offer is withdrawn or reduced.
I normally send an example contract to the buyers representative to ensure they are happy with it. Different lawyers and gestors ask for different things to be included. Once they are happy, then both parties will sign it and you will then pay the remainder of the deposit withing the dates agreed in the contract.
If a buyer turns up with a lawyer and the lawyer is switched on - great, less work for me! So your agent shouldn't have any problems with you finding your own representative. It is worth checking the last AGM minutes of the community and the community accounts before paying anything across as well. Quite a few communities are having issues with non-payers. There may also be derramas on the community (Extraordinary works being carried out such as painting of the complex, retiling swimming pools etc where a levy is charged to all owners.)
If deriving an income from the property via rentals is important to you then you need to be sure about the status of the complex. Lots of people have been and will continue to be caught out by the touristic letting laws and they are by no means straightforward!!! So if that is important then you also need to do your homework.
Janet ******** was mentioned in passing as someone who could represent you - I would agree with that, she is very good. If you want a Spanish gestor then Marcos Cabrera in Los Cristianos, Maria Gonzalez of MGM consulting, Candi Acevedo of CentroAdmin.com, and Gobind Daryanani of Gysecan.es are all ones I have dealt with so far this year on purchases. If you want any of their contact details drop me an email or a pm.
If you have any questions at all, ask on here. Plenty of experienced buyers and sellers on the forum who can offer you advice and its free! :)
Best of luck with your purchase.
There are plenty of good gestors and lawyers around who will represent you for 1,000€ - sometimes less. It is money well spent if you are new to property purchasing in Tenerife.
Looking at the email, if you want to be picky, the fact that you are signing at a notary really does not offer much protection. He will simply read out the contract and ask if you understand it. Agents will generally be looking at you and nodding at this point :)
I´m not sure why any checks would have been carried out on the property so far other than a Nota Simple being ordered. Estate Agents are unlikely to spend time "doing checks" without first having some commitment from a purchaser so these will need to be carried out to ensure community fees, IBI tax, basura, electricity, water etc are all up to date. If not the amount to pay these off will need to be retained from the money paid to the vendor of the property. Same if there is a mortgage or any embargoes against the property. However, there may have been a previous buyer who pulled out for some reason after all the checks were made??
CIM - no Notary will let the purchase go ahead without the original receipts for community fees and IBI ... so you are employing a lawyer just to check the electricty & water bills ??? It is normally part of the package for the agent to make the necessary name changes on the bills ... and help with NIE etc.
I'm not saying You Don't Need a Lawyer - just that their fees are expensive for what they actually do :(
Andy0210
28-01-2012, 02:12
Thanks for the recommendations, nice to know I am a "trusted" person on here :)
Course you are trusted, we have all know you ages and we know you have hardly ripped anyone off on the island! ;)
Only kidding, was happy to recommend you. :)
They will check if there are community fees and IBI outstanding, what those amounts are etc. It is often the case that owners dont even know what is outstanding and when they find out they have 6,000€ worth of IBI and fines for example, the sale can be turned upside down as they want to renegotiate the price or pull out completely and not sign the sales contract.
Many agents will have already taken money by this stage and have a client booking flights back for signing. They can simply "add" some additional costs to the fees to attempt to smooth over such problems or be talking a buyer into paying black money for other nefarious reasons using the old "it´s normal here...." Plus Valia can be inflated and charged to an unwitting buyer as can any other fees.
I would also have the electricity handled by someone other than the agent as once the agent is paid at notary there's nothing to stop them simply not bothering with these after sales services leaving the buyer high and dry and possibly cut off.... If it becomes complicated and the agent simply isnt capable or sorting it out, he already has your money....
Why anyone would trust an estate agent with their deposit is anyone's guess when you simply dont need to. Get independent advice on the whole process, if you are not sure about anything, you have an independent third party who can clarify and cut through the bull for you.
A lot of money can be riding on a completion for an agent which for me simply makes it too much of a conflict of interest for them to be too involved in conveyance and handling deposits. The three agents I would name off the top of my head to avoid all really push for buyers to do the legal work "in house" and "save on fees." Believe me, they are not doing buyers and sellers any favours when they do this.... Same with power of attorney - do not assign it to an agent if you need to use one.
You simply dont know if you are with a good agent or not regardless of recommendations from anyone on here or anywhere else. Get a good independent third party involved for peace of mind as one persons experience with an agent may not be the same as somebody elses.
Lawyers fees can be expensive so shop around. Gestors are generally cheaper.
So, CIM, what services do you actually provide as an Estate Agent to justify that 5% :)
If there is a mortgage involved, the Bank will already be using a Gestor ... and as I have already said, you cannot actually close a sale at a Notary without proof that Community Fees and IBI (rates) already having been paid.
Yes, I know I have more knowledge than the average buyer ... I have also come across incompetent lawyers, as well as agents, here too, and sat opposite them at the Notary watching their mistakes :(
Tom & Sharon
28-01-2012, 10:15
Course you are trusted, we have all know you ages and we know you have hardly ripped anyone off on the island! ;)
Only kidding, was happy to recommend you. :)
We used CIM when we purchased on Golf Del Sur a few years ago,and he was refreshingly up front and honest and he and
his delightful OH Maria have become firm friends so much so that we have become God-parents to their beautiful daughter Charlotte (Geeez, how did that happen :dontknow:) ;)
I would however not trust him with my whisky!!!! Oh my god i'm in the UK just now :doh:
Tom
So, CIM, what services do you actually provide as an Estate Agent to justify that 5% :)
If there is a mortgage involved, the Bank will already be using a Gestor ... and as I have already said, you cannot actually close a sale at a Notary without proof that Community Fees and IBI (rates) already having been paid.
Yes, I know I have more knowledge than the average buyer ... I have also come across incompetent lawyers, as well as agents, here too, and sat opposite them at the Notary watching their mistakes :(
There a thread about estate agents commission here Doreen:
Estate Agents Commission (http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?5632-What-are-the-current-Estate-Agents-commission-rates-in-Tenerife)
Please try ad stay on topic! This thread is about whether buyers should use a lawyer/gestor or trust the agent....
Why not add a poll and see what people think?
karinagal
28-01-2012, 11:41
I had a few 'hiccups' during the process of buying a property in Tenerife - mostly down to the estate agent (an allegedly 'prize winning' one....) stringing me along... I won't bore you with the details. Andy/CIM and others on this forum gave me excellent advice, all for free. Ended up I pulled out of that sale as the seller was dragging their heels. I bought another property with a different agent and as advised, employed the services of a lawyer. Because of the speed of the second purchase (it was ready to go through immediately) I didn't even have time for a deposit to be paid! The lawyer handled everything... There was one little niggle - the lawyer was a bit slow off the mark getting the utilities switched over to my name, if I'd left this to the agent's gestor it would have been done quicker..
I was very lucky - throughout the purchase, my contact at the agency was an absolute gem. She answered all my queries, listened to my ramblings and was always there to help. When I came over to finalise the sale and get the keys, she even took me shopping to buy furniture and anything else I needed. I'm now happy to call her my friend! It's refreshing to know that not all estate agents are sharks - I had a lucky escape with the first one..!
I would definitely recommend using a lawyer though.. Buying a property is generally one of the biggest financial commitments you will make and therefore it makes sense to ensure that you cover all bases, cross the right t's and dot the right i's..
Karina
atlantico
28-01-2012, 11:42
my penneth worth, from actual experience, additional to all comments above.
I've bought 3 properties, all without a Lawyer - so they are NOT essential, no.
The deposit ? No way, as CIM said, its a buyers market, offer a small (€1k) deposit for taking the property off the market, but even in these days thats not needed - will it sell in the meantime ? Doubt it. Estate Agents like to take this deposit as they then know that their fees will get paid, some sellers argue over fees after a sale, you know !
Make a list of all the things an Estate Agent or Lawyer should be doing, and YOU check its been done. ie
Bills paid up to date - community, electric, water, refuse, IBI (rates), even UK TV fees if its installed.
Taxes paid - especially the Land Tax called Plus Valia, Agents tend to forget this one and the buyer pays it, BUT its the sellers legal responsibility.
Use a bank for even a small mortgage, even if you don't need one ! They are responsible for protecting their investment too. Ask a bank representative to go to Notary with you, mine didn't charge.
Get a copy of the property valuation from Tax Office (Hacienda) - because purchase tax is based on their valuation, NOT what you paid for it ! ie. Valuation €100k, buying price €75k, you pay % tax on the €100k.
Again, as above, if the property is over 20 years old, or near to it, get seller to get a new electrical certificate, (Boletin) otherwise you may have to rewire. For a survey, get a good local builder to do a quick 'eye' over the place, they'll charge little if they think they may get the remedial works from you. Speak to member Scoregolfbob, tell him you know Atlantico, and he'll automatically know you don't want to spend much money ! lol
An apartment on a complex? Visit it regularly at different times of day/night, even rent and stay there, and speak to friendly owners, if there's a community problem, they'll tell you. Complexes look nice one minute, but bad/noisy neighbours can ruin your holiday home. Let members on here know which complex you're looking at for feedback.
If you want a third party to handle the changing of names on bills, and translation at Notary (required) speak to forum member Goldenmaniac, website here (http://www.diana-mcglone.com/), mention Atlantico, maybe I'll get commission ! lol
The only Estate Agent I can personally recommend near to the Golf is Guy (Gee), of Tenerife Homes (http://www.tenerifehome.com/), in Silencio. If I were to buy another property, I could rely on him to do everything, flawlessly, whilst me being in the UK. Again say Atlantico, and he'll know what to expect from him !
I'll edit and add more as I think of it
There a thread about estate agents commission here Doreen:
Estate Agents Commission (http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?5632-What-are-the-current-Estate-Agents-commission-rates-in-Tenerife)
Please try ad stay on topic! This thread is about whether buyers should use a lawyer/gestor or trust the agent....
Why not add a poll and see what people think?
But the topic is whether to use a lawyer and what services they (and only they) can provide that benefit the buyer ... you tell me they will check Community and IBI, almost suggesting that only they can do this properly, whereas I see that as a duty of the agent (and it is very easy and controlled by the Notary who will not go ahead with the sale unless done) ... the only issue I believe is whether you are happy for the agent to hold the deposit or some third party - all else can be handled by the agent ... and is it worth 1,000 euros for this peace of mind.
Its not, the agent could be bull****ting you about all the costs and the process from start to finish, whilst lining their own pockets. This happens - regularly. If you haven't bought a property here you are putting your trust in the estate agent. Not all of them are trustworthy (far from it) so getting someone independent to provide independent advice is a must.
If you are comfortable doing it yourself - great but most simple simply are not. Stick a poll up and see what the general consensus is.
Its not, the agent could be bull****ting you about all the costs and the process from start to finish, whilst lining their own pockets. This happens - regularly. If you haven't bought a property here you are putting your trust in the estate agent. Not all of them are trustworthy (far from it) so getting someone independent to provide independent advice is a must.
If you are comfortable doing it yourself - great but most simple simply are not. Stick a poll up and see what the general consensus is.
A more relevant poll would be - who used a lawyer buying a property and who didn't ... and who had any problems afterwards
I would be ticking Yes to having used a lawyer and not having used a lawyer ... and Yes to having had problems afterwards having used a lawyer and not having used a lawyer :)
Perhaps, but with the poll I suggested, I´d win hands down :)
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