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Tom & Sharon
18-03-2012, 13:05
As an offshoot of the "illegal lettings" thread, here is a question for prospective property investors.

The illegal lettings laws in Tenerife state that:-

- No short term holiday letting is allowed in residential accommodation. Long term lets (over 3 months) are allowed.

- In registered touristic accommodation, short term letting is allowed with 50% + 1 agreement, and a single exploitation agent.

In essence this means that if you buy residential accommodation as an investment, you can only let it out long term, and therefore not benefit from the lucrative short term holiday market, which people have done in the past. This is the basis on which much property has been sold in Tenerife. Long term letting has nowhere near the capital return of holiday lets, and also means that the property is not available for your own holiday use.

If you buy in registered touristic accommodation, then holiday lets are still illegal unless they are through the single exploitation agent. This can mean that the property you have invested in is not available for you to let out as you like, and the total rental money is not yours. The agent will offer you a return per night for the rental of your apartment, and figures as low as 9€ per night have been quoted on this forum. You may also be dictated to as to when you can holiday in your own apartment, for how long, and how many weeks per year.

As I stated on the illegal lettings thread, we have friends who owns a 9 bedroomed house in Snowdonia. This they rent out at between £2,500 and £4,200 per week depending on season. For weekend lets, they charge 75% of the weekly rent. It is full every weekend of the year, and every full week during the summer season, Easter, Christmas and New Year. This is a huge capital return, as a property that size can be purchased for around £300,000 in N Wales.

For us the choice would be UK or Tenerife as they are the 2 places we are always in and we could keep our eye on either, but for others it may be a different choice of location. We may consider buying an investment property somewhere next year, but with the laws as they stand in Tenerife, there's no way we would invest there. It will be UK for us.

So, if you were considering buying an investment property, where would it be? Tenerife or UK?

princessmonika
18-03-2012, 13:09
ireland rents are great

Angusjim
18-03-2012, 13:13
As an offshoot of the "illegal lettings" thread, here is a question for prospective property investors.

The illegal lettings laws in Tenerife state that:-

- No short term holiday letting is allowed in residential accommodation. Long term lets (over 3 months) are allowed.

- In registered touristic accommodation, short term letting is allowed with 50% + 1 agreement, and a single exploitation agent.

In essence this means that if you buy residential accommodation as an investment, you can only let it out long term, and therefore not benefit from the lucrative short term holiday market, which people have done in the past. This is the basis on which much property has been sold in Tenerife. Long term letting has nowhere near the capital return of holiday lets, and also means that the property is not available for your own holiday use.

If you buy in registered touristic accommodation, then holiday lets are still illegal unless they are through the single exploitation agent. This can mean that the property you have invested in is not available for you to let out as you like, and the total rental money is not yours. The agent will offer you a return per night for the rental of your apartment, and figures as low as 9€ per night have been quoted on this forum. You may also be dictated to as to when you can holiday in your own apartment, for how long, and how many weeks per year.

As I stated on the illegal lettings thread, we have friends who owns a 9 bedroomed house in Snowdonia. This they rent out at between £2,500 and £4,200 per week depending on season. For weekend lets, they charge 75% of the weekly rent. It is full every weekend of the year, and every full week during the summer season, Easter, Christmas and New Year. This is a huge capital return, as a property that size can be purchased for around £300,000 in N Wales.

For us the choice would be UK or Tenerife as they are the 2 places we are always in and we could keep our eye on either, but for others it may be a different choice of location. We may consider buying an investment property somewhere next year, but with the laws as they stand in Tenerife, there's no way we would invest there. It will be UK for us.

So, if you were considering buying an investment property, where would it be? Tenerife or UK?


Lifestyle - Tenerife
Investment - UK

jogger321
18-03-2012, 13:19
I invest in property in the UK both to live in and rent out

I rent property when I visit Tenerife. No hassle and fulfils all my needs.

Suej
18-03-2012, 13:29
I agree I have invested in the UK and would continue to do so if funds allowed.

golf birdie
18-03-2012, 13:43
depends on where you buy. If you bought a large house in La laguna it can bring in a high income due to the uni.

atlantico
18-03-2012, 13:49
the 'renting of residential property as holiday lets' is actually illegal in the UK too !!! But as it isn't a big problem, nothing is ever done about it - except a few London Councils banning it for the Olympics !

golf birdie
18-03-2012, 13:54
the 'renting of residential property as holiday lets' is actually illegal in the UK too !!! But as it isn't a big problem, nothing is ever done about it - except a few London Councils banning it for the Olympics !

how do you ban something thats illegal ?

atlantico
18-03-2012, 14:37
OK, not banning - enforcing !

golf birdie
18-03-2012, 14:43
OK, not banning - enforcing !

could you imagine the outcry if they did enforce it across the UK?

grouse
18-03-2012, 15:09
could you imagine the outcry if they did enforce it across the UK?

If the property in the UK is registered for holiday lets then different laws apply.

If it is not registered then the instant you let a property to someone in the UK and take payment, you create a Shorthold Assured Tenancy, no contract needs to be signed. This gives the tenant instant rights under the housing act.
This is fine if they move out when they are supposed to, but if they don't want to leave, it will take months to get them out. Happens every day in the UK.

Tom & Sharon
18-03-2012, 15:44
the 'renting of residential property as holiday lets' is actually illegal in the UK too !!! But as it isn't a big problem, nothing is ever done about it - except a few London Councils banning it for the Olympics !

Is it? Are you sure?

I can't find any reference to it. Can you post me a link to the law?

All I can find is the tax laws on it - http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4017930

grouse
18-03-2012, 15:59
Is it? Are you sure?

I can't find any reference to it. Can you post me a link to the law?

All I can find is the tax laws on it - http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4017930

It's not illegal but requires more hoops to jump through than residential letting. Change of use planning permission, compulsory PAT testing of electrical equipment, stricter fire precautions, council inspections.

northern1
18-03-2012, 16:11
As an offshoot of the "illegal lettings" thread, here is a question for prospective property investors.

The illegal lettings laws in Tenerife state that:-

- No short term holiday letting is allowed in residential accommodation. Long term lets (over 3 months) are allowed.

- In registered touristic accommodation, short term letting is allowed with 50% + 1 agreement, and a single exploitation agent.

In essence this means that if you buy residential accommodation as an investment, you can only let it out long term, and therefore...
-lots of text-
So, if you were considering buying an investment property, where would it be? Tenerife or UK?

Great post and it really is spot on for us.
We have been looking some time (since the economy collapsed in Spain) for a good value property to invest in on Tenerife, one we could stay in ourselves when we vacation. But the more we investigated the more we started thinking otherwise, it´s so difficult and the profit is too low if you do it legally.
So we decided to rent when we holiday and invest in property in Finland, the return on invested capital is worse than what we would get from holiday-letting (but not that bad) but the tennants are (for the most part) decent people. Only had two rotten apples for four years in our five apartments.

So to answer the question, I´d go for UK if I had any knowledge of the market there :)

atlantico
18-03-2012, 17:04
Is it? Are you sure?

I can't find any reference to it. Can you post me a link to the law?

All I can find is the tax laws on it - http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4017930

you'll need local authority planning permission,and most authorities have 'limitations' imposed as byelaws, each LA is different. ie Lake District is very different to different towns bylaws. Imagine trying to get holiday home permission for a terraced house in a Liverpool suburb. Now, the chances are that you'd want a holiday home on the coast or 'holiday' area, so it shouldn't be a problem. A bit like Tenerife - some areas are issued with permission, others aren't. Think of your nice housing estate in the UK - would you like it if a neighbour started holiday letting ? (same as they do here on your community?)

delderek
18-03-2012, 17:41
Investing in Tenerife at the moment,,you just gotta be joking. Property prices on a steep downward slope,,selling prices 20% at least below asking price, and still going down. 18 months to two years will be the time, then in ten or fifteen years you will treble your money

Peterrayner
18-03-2012, 18:53
Investing in Tenerife at the moment,,you just gotta be joking. Property prices on a steep downward slope,,selling prices 20% at least below asking price, and still going down. 18 months to two years will be the time, then in ten or fifteen years you will treble your money

Plenty still currently "investing" on our complex at this moment.

I can recall 4 purchases in the last month or so. My neighbours have just completed the sale of their 2 bed apartment last week and another 1 bed was completed the week before.

I think they are "lifestyle" investments at the moment and at about 10% below the original 2005 off plan purchase prices.

175K for a 2 bed about 2 months ago which was bought for 195K in 2005. The changes in the exchange rates since purchase means the UK based seller is covering the full original invesment in Sterling terms but is losing out on the purchase tax and furniture costs.

delderek
18-03-2012, 19:30
Plenty still currently "investing" on our complex at this moment.

I can recall 4 purchases in the last month or so. My neighbours have just completed the sale of their 2 bed apartment last week and another 1 bed was completed the week before.

I think they are "lifestyle" investments at the moment and at about 10% below the original 2005 off plan purchase prices.

175K for a 2 bed about 2 months ago which was bought for 195K in 2005. The changes in the exchange rates since purchase means the UK based seller is covering the full original invesment in Sterling terms but is losing out on the purchase tax and furniture costs.

I would suspect that was the asking price,(and selling prices are now 20% below asking price) less agents fees less plus valia, less 3% retention, and after 7 years, that is a terrible investment 195k in a bank would now be worth well over 260k.

atlantico
18-03-2012, 19:45
not really that bad if its going back as GBP.

€195k in 2005 at 1.45 rate = £135k

€165k in 2012 at 1.18 rate = £139k

OK, fees take away the little profit BUT the owner used or rented is out for 7 years !

kathml
18-03-2012, 20:05
the 'renting of residential property as holiday lets' is actually illegal in the UK too !!! But as it isn't a big problem, nothing is ever done about it - except a few London Councils banning it for the Olympics !

Please give the relevant laws regarding this as I believe you are wrong

Red Devil
18-03-2012, 20:18
Please give the relevant laws regarding this as I believe you are wrong

I think Atlantico is thinking of areas where some houses can only be sold to "locals" so as to ensure these people can afford to stay in their own area and not be forced out by 2nd home owners inflating the market. I know this does happen occasionally in the Lake District but this is quite clearly stated when a property comes onto the market for sale.

Peterrayner
18-03-2012, 20:25
I would suspect that was the asking price,(and selling prices are now 20% below asking price) less agents fees less plus valia, less 3% retention, and after 7 years, that is a terrible investment 195k in a bank would now be worth well over 260k.

No !! 175K was the actual sale price the asking price was 195K which was the original purchase cost in 2005.

The seller was happy with the 175K which with the 1.16 exchange rate at that time meant he recovered most of the original outlay when converted back to Sterling.

Yes of course he lost out on the add on costs such as purchase taxes etc but thats why I said its a "lifestyle investment".

Not sure I agree with your bank investment figures 30% return over the past 7 years seems over the top.

delderek
18-03-2012, 20:38
No !! 175K was the actual sale price the asking price was 195K which was the original purchase cost in 2005.

The seller was happy with the 175K which with the 1.16 exchange rate at that time meant he recovered most of the original outlay when converted back to Sterling.

Yes of course he lost out on the add on costs such as purchase taxes etc but thats why I said its a "lifestyle investment".

Not sure I agree with your bank investment figures 30% return over the past 7 years seems over the top.


4% compounded up, comes to more than that, I was allowing for income tax, so 30% is about right. If I reinvest in Tenerife it will not be sooner than the next 18 months, probably more like 2 years, in my opinion that will then be bottom of the market.

atlantico
18-03-2012, 20:49
Please give the relevant laws regarding this as I believe you are wrong

go ask your local authority, and see what they say. By-laws exist , but are not always adhered to, just like in Tenerife. If you 'just did it' , you'd probably get away with it, BUT if there were complaints from neighbouring residents the Local Authority can step in using their bye-laws. Just like they 'could' stop your local corner shop from opening more than 6 hours on a Sunday , but they don't (Tescos have to adhere to it) or put trading limitations on opening hours, ie. they did this with me, told me to close shop at 9pm and not 10pm, even though across the road a Blockbuster Video closed at 10pm and Dominoes Pizza at 12pm. There's always a 'back-up' bye-law to allow them to take action. Anyone who thinks they can buy a nice, new 3-bed semi in a quiet cul-de-sac and rent it out to foreign or UK holiday makers - think again !

Peterrayner
18-03-2012, 20:57
4% compounded up, comes to more than that, I was allowing for income tax, so 30% is about right. If I reinvest in Tenerife it will not be sooner than the next 18 months, probably more like 2 years, in my opinion that will then be bottom of the market.

I am no expert in bank interest payments but I suspect that in order to achieve anything like 4% returns over the past few years you would have had to tie up the initial investment over an extended period ???

Loaded
18-03-2012, 21:06
Worth pointing out that the OP quoted the worst possible example jn Tenerife based on a 1 bed with a greedy sole agent and compared the returns against a 9 bed house doing well....

Some sole agents pay around 25 per night

delderek
18-03-2012, 21:10
I am no expert in bank interest payments but I suspect that in order to achieve anything like 4% returns over the past few years you would have had to tie up the initial investment over an extended period ???

Nope, instant access online accounts, but reduced in the last few months down to 3.7%. 4.2% one year bonds.

Added after 5 minutes:


Please give the relevant laws regarding this as I believe you are wrong

Short term holiday letting is not allowed in my area, without prior permission from the local council. These are local by laws, and apply to much of E Kent. It is only allowed in Zoned areas.

Added after 3 minutes:

Many countries have Zoned areas, where Holiday letting is illegal. Florida is one of the most regulated in the world, with huge fines, for ignoring.

CIM
18-03-2012, 22:33
I ask all buyers who say they are looking for "pure investment" why they dont just get themselves a good, distressed BTL back home where they know the areas intimately. I think it beats relying on a salesman over her massaging the numbers or being less than honest about the letting agents policies. Tenerife is definitely more suited to lifestyle investment where you can have a great holiday home that can pay for itself when you´re not using it.

Investments that do work
Saying that, I sold a property in Tenerife recently which the owner rents out and after all costs is making around 8.2% per year (this is based on the price plus purchase costs) and it is fully legal and in compliance with the sole letting agent. This was a cash purchase so the return could have been higher as a leveraged investment with a mortgage.

What I am looking at personally
I am looking at purchasing residential property myself based on double digit returns from long lets. I have done the numbers and on paper they look very, very good. If I can get 70% of the projections (allowing for gaps between tenants) then I will still be achieving 10% (including purchase costs and full refurbishment.)

Why its so difficult finding something suitable
There are good investments but I think you really need to know where to look. Needles and haystacks spring to mind especially when there is so much garbage piled up on agents websites. It makes it difficult to dig out the real gems when you see 1,000+ (mostly overpriced and overrated) properties on these websites. Why they continue listing this stuff is beyond me (both the agents and the owners.)

Touristic property prices
Touristic property will fall in accordance with rental return (unless buyers are stupid and dont look into it correctly) but I dont think they´ll fall an awful lot overall. Residential in touristic/sought after zones will continue to fall somewhat but there will always continue to be demand for them.

Residential property prices
The real big drop offs are in residential which does not appeal to non-residents and investors - Palm Mar, Chayofa, El Galeon, Roque Del Conde, El Madronal, San Eugenio Alto, Torviscas Alto to name a few. Unless I was getting something incredibly cheap I certainly would not be thinking about investing in any of these places. Prices there are set to continue to drop. A large part of the market for such properties were residents living and working here, making good money and looking to buy high quality homes to live in. That sector of clients has been decimated by company closures, lay-offs, thousands of people simply giving up and leaving, massive numbers out of work and those still with a job are only declaring half their salaries so have zero chance of qualifying for a mortgage. I dont see that area of the market recovering for a long, long time and predict prices continuing to fall until they reach pre-boom levels. Unfortunately too many sellers just wont accept this and will hold on and on rather than getting out on the way down. These are the people who will realise the biggest losses.

The bottom of the market
This isnt the worst of it though, other places such as Las Chafiras, Adeje Town, Parque de la Reina, Guargacho, Costa del Silencio to some extent, Los Abrigos, Las Galletas, El Fraile, Callao Salvaje, Paya Paraiso, Cabo Blanco etc - I predict a complete collapse in terms of selling prices. There is virtually zero demand so regardless of what is listed, if people want to sell in these areas they are going to have to start taking real low ball offers. I actually valued one property at zero in Guargacho a couple of months ago (as did the other agent I was with) - completely worthless in this market.

Making something out of the hardest hit properties
So far as investment - buy to let in these areas could work if you can get something low enough and also the possibility of buying very, very low over the next few years, refurbing etc and then selling at a profit when the market stabilises or simply flipping something if you can pick it up really low in and in very poor condition.

Overall
To conclude, there are investment opportunities here - some very good ones but if you dont know the market and dont know what you are doing then you may well be better off sticking to what you do know and if that means the UK - then do that instead - especially if it is for pure investment. I´d rather invest here but thats mainly because I live here and am going over this stuff every day so I have a good idea of what is coming on the market, what is selling, how much for, what is viable as an investment and of course, what should be avoided.

kathml
19-03-2012, 00:09
go ask your local authority, and see what they say. By-laws exist , but are not always adhered to, just like in Tenerife. If you 'just did it' , you'd probably get away with it, BUT if there were complaints from neighbouring residents the Local Authority can step in using their bye-laws. Just like they 'could' stop your local corner shop from opening more than 6 hours on a Sunday , but they don't (Tescos have to adhere to it) or put trading limitations on opening hours, ie. they did this with me, told me to close shop at 9pm and not 10pm, even though across the road a Blockbuster Video closed at 10pm and Dominoes Pizza at 12pm. There's always a 'back-up' bye-law to allow them to take action. Anyone who thinks they can buy a nice, new 3-bed semi in a quiet cul-de-sac and rent it out to foreign or UK holiday makers - think again !

A s far as I know in scotland if you buy a house you can do what you like with it subject only to the laws concerning multi occupancy and for holiday lets council tax does not apply just business rates which because most properties are rated under 10 thousand pounds are exempt from paying rates

seanocelt
19-03-2012, 00:39
I ask all buyers who say they are looking for "pure investment" why they dont just get themselves a good, distressed BTL back home where they know the areas intimately. I think it beats relying on a salesman over her massaging the numbers or being less than honest about the letting agents policies. Tenerife is definitely more suited to lifestyle investment where you can have a great holiday home that can pay for itself when you´re not using it.

Investments that do work
Saying that, I sold a property in Tenerife recently which the owner rents out and after all costs is making around 8.2% per year (this is based on the price plus purchase costs) and it is fully legal and in compliance with the sole letting agent. This was a cash purchase so the return could have been higher as a leveraged investment with a mortgage.

What I am looking at personally
I am looking at purchasing residential property myself based on double digit returns from long lets. I have done the numbers and on paper they look very, very good. If I can get 70% of the projections (allowing for gaps between tenants) then I will still be achieving 10% (including purchase costs and full refurbishment.)

Why its so difficult finding something suitable
There are good investments but I think you really need to know where to look. Needles and haystacks spring to mind especially when there is so much garbage piled up on agents websites. It makes it difficult to dig out the real gems when you see 1,000+ (mostly overpriced and overrated) properties on these websites. Why they continue listing this stuff is beyond me (both the agents and the owners.)

Touristic property prices
Touristic property will fall in accordance with rental return (unless buyers are stupid and dont look into it correctly) but I dont think they´ll fall an awful lot overall. Residential in touristic/sought after zones will continue to fall somewhat but there will always continue to be demand for them.

Residential property prices
The real big drop offs are in residential which does not appeal to non-residents and investors - Palm Mar, Chayofa, El Galeon, Roque Del Conde, El Madronal, San Eugenio Alto, Torviscas Alto to name a few. Unless I was getting something incredibly cheap I certainly would not be thinking about investing in any of these places. Prices there are set to continue to drop. A large part of the market for such properties were residents living and working here, making good money and looking to buy high quality homes to live in. That sector of clients has been decimated by company closures, lay-offs, thousands of people simply giving up and leaving, massive numbers out of work and those still with a job are only declaring half their salaries so have zero chance of qualifying for a mortgage. I dont see that area of the market recovering for a long, long time and predict prices continuing to fall until they reach pre-boom levels. Unfortunately too many sellers just wont accept this and will hold on and on rather than getting out on the way down. These are the people who will realise the biggest losses.

The bottom of the market
This isnt the worst of it though, other places such as Las Chafiras, Adeje Town, Parque de la Reina, Guargacho, Costa del Silencio to some extent, Los Abrigos, Las Galletas, El Fraile, Callao Salvaje, Paya Paraiso, Cabo Blanco etc - I predict a complete collapse in terms of selling prices. There is virtually zero demand so regardless of what is listed, if people want to sell in these areas they are going to have to start taking real low ball offers. I actually valued one property at zero in Guargacho a couple of months ago (as did the other agent I was with) - completely worthless in this market.

Making something out of the hardest hit properties
So far as investment - buy to let in these areas could work if you can get something low enough and also the possibility of buying very, very low over the next few years, refurbing etc and then selling at a profit when the market stabilises or simply flipping something if you can pick it up really low in and in very poor condition.

Overall
To conclude, there are investment opportunities here - some very good ones but if you dont know the market and dont know what you are doing then you may well be better off sticking to what you do know and if that means the UK - then do that instead - especially if it is for pure investment. I´d rather invest here but thats mainly because I live here and am going over this stuff every day so I have a good idea of what is coming on the market, what is selling, how much for, what is viable as an investment and of course, what should be avoided.


Post of the year. By a million miles. Well presented, well thought out and up to date. I could qote Peter's post and reply, but i will not, waste of time. FACT; crap return on certain properties at current market value/laws on rental. CRAP. Risky too. And people knock a 4% return from a bank? Bet some wish they had took it, rather than come on here as experts on investment, end up spending all their profit paying lawyers to fight an unwinable fight! POST OF THE YEAR. Smell the coffee.

junglejim
19-03-2012, 07:59
go ask your local authority, and see what they say. By-laws exist , but are not always adhered to, just like in Tenerife. If you 'just did it' , you'd probably get away with it, BUT if there were complaints from neighbouring residents the Local Authority can step in using their bye-laws. Just like they 'could' stop your local corner shop from opening more than 6 hours on a Sunday , but they don't (Tescos have to adhere to it) or put trading limitations on opening hours, ie. they did this with me, told me to close shop at 9pm and not 10pm, even though across the road a Blockbuster Video closed at 10pm and Dominoes Pizza at 12pm. There's always a 'back-up' bye-law to allow them to take action. Anyone who thinks they can buy a nice, new 3-bed semi in a quiet cul-de-sac and rent it out to foreign or UK holiday makers - think again !
Slightly more relaxed in Scotland - extensive Sunday Trading ( 24 hr Tesco 7 days a week)- also easier to operate holiday homes ,town centre flats etc.
We seem to have a more proactive Tourist Board helping to improve the situation in Scotland ,

Balcony
19-03-2012, 09:57
Don't forget that 'investors' don't all want to rent out their property. Some are happy to buy and use it themselves! Maybe not so often, but maybe after retirement as a true second home for longer stays.

This problem with lettings became a big issue, pretty obviously, as so many apartments were built and the tax income to the government was negligable. It's not just lettings being illegal/legal it's also that tax is largely NOT paid on the income.

And of course this tax issue is not confined to property income. It extends to illegal residents (those who haven't registered as residents); illegal businesses - not registered, not insured, not paying tax and the lsit could go on.

offshore diver
19-03-2012, 18:09
with residential rents id say the uk is better for rental returns unless you purchased in the 1990 s in tenerife , then the returns now on that property would still be good in relation to the price paid , the only thing for non resident expats like myself owning a property in the uk you can be classed as a resident then get hit with income tax in the uk ,i believe there s a lot of new rules came out regarding non residence status ,as for prices dropping in places like roque del conde ,if you don t intend to sell for next 8 to 10 years then its not an issue when the spanish market turns round with the german school nearby i reckon the prices there will go up as nothing new can be built up there ,and the demand from spanish buyers will be high

CIM
20-03-2012, 00:14
with residential rents id say the uk is better for rental returns unless you purchased in the 1990 s in tenerife , then the returns now on that property would still be good in relation to the price paid , the only thing for non resident expats like myself owning a property in the uk you can be classed as a resident then get hit with income tax in the uk ,i believe there s a lot of new rules came out regarding non residence status ,as for prices dropping in places like roque del conde ,if you don t intend to sell for next 8 to 10 years then its not an issue when the spanish market turns round with the german school nearby i reckon the prices there will go up as nothing new can be built up there ,and the demand from spanish buyers will be high

Just got a nice two bedroom apartment up there for 100,000€... thats 60,000€ less than its peak price!