Knowing the Law

[karaokeking]

I frequent a bar in LAS AMERICAS, the new owner took over last Feb. He runs his own karaoke and has two bar staff. The other night he was having dinner at a restaraunt next door to his bar. He had his daughter with him and his grandaughter. This perticular night he only had one staff on as it's quite now. He has a partner who he isn't married to, she took the little girl and went into there bar, where she went behind the bar and got a coke for the little girl.

At that time there were four guys talking to the boy behind the bar, who has worked there for several years. They were asking him for his passport, which he didn't have with him at the time. Then the owner walked in and they started to question him, they mentioned about his girlfriend being behind the bar saying she was working there,which she wasn't. They asked her for her passport again she didn't have hers niether, she said she would go and get it from her apartment about six minutes away. They asked the owner and his girlfriend to sign something which was in Spanish, and because they didn't understand what it said where reluctant to sign. In the end they signed it. His girlfrind went to get her passport, in the meantime they said they couldnt wait and she would have to report to Santa Cruz on the 27th of this month.

He told them she was going back to the U/K before this, as she had an appointment with the doctor. They said she must go as it was the law. He has since seen a woman English solicitor, the same one that did all his paper work for the bar, and she informs him that he has to pay a fine of 3,000 EU for his girfriend who they say she was working behind the bar, and 10,000 EU for being obstructive. He hasn't been to court so he could have his say, and it makes you think if it's all worth it. So the money he made through the winter will go on his fine. I don't know how they can fine someone without him having his say. I don't think the Spanish want any foreigners here, but where would they be without the holidaymakers.

To me there is one rule for us and another for them. I feel sorry for the landlord as he said if he hadn't got so much tied up in the bar he would just walk away.

[casabonny]

It seems that he must have been reported to the work Insoectors or else they were in that area.What they did was correct , although they should have identified themselves before asking for passport etc ( maybe they did you havent said and as the story is second hand maybe they did).If the guy did not have all his staff on the correct work contracts then he would be fined although he could appeal if the fine is substancial.As for the other fine for being obstructive I think that is probably not for that but to do with the work/contracts illegal employment side of things.
Sadly no one is allowed to work for free here ( well not in the eyes of the law anyway) a wife cannot even " help out " in her husbands bar unless she is on a contract and being paid.They are not just targetting foreigners , I have Canarians friends with bars who have also been visited but of course there is then no language barriers.
I would suggest he gets a better lawyer !

[BobMac]

Seem's harsh but they are dealing with Spanish law not UK law. Ignorance of local law is not a defence if you are caught breaking it.

[murph]

I frequent a bar in LAS AMERICAS, the new owner took over last Feb. He runs his own karaoke and has two bar staff. The other night he was having dinner at a restaraunt next door to his bar. He had his daughter with him and his grandaughter. This perticular night he only had one staff on as it's quite now. He has a partner who he isn't married to, she took the little girl and went into there bar, where she went behind the bar and got a coke for the little girl.

At that time there were four guys talking to the boy behind the bar, who has worked there for several years. They were asking him for his passport, which he didn't have with him at the time. Then the owner walked in and they started to question him, they mentioned about his girlfriend being behind the bar saying she was working there,which she wasn't. They asked her for her passport again she didn't have hers niether, she said she would go and get it from her apartment about six minutes away. They asked the owner and his girlfriend to sign something which was in Spanish, and because they didn't understand what it said where reluctant to sign. In the end they signed it. His girlfrind went to get her passport, in the meantime they said they couldnt wait and she would have to report to Santa Cruz on the 27th of this month.

He told them she was going back to the U/K before this, as she had an appointment with the doctor. They said she must go as it was the law. He has since seen a woman English solicitor, the same one that did all his paper work for the bar, and she informs him that he has to pay a fine of 3,000 EU for his girfriend who they say she was working behind the bar, and 10,000 EU for being obstructive. He hasn't been to court so he could have his say, and it makes you think if it's all worth it. So the money he made through the winter will go on his fine. I don't know how they can fine someone without him having his say. I don't think the Spanish want any foreigners here, but where would they be without the holidaymakers.

To me there is one rule for us and another for them. I feel sorry for the landlord as he said if he hadn't got so much tied up in the bar he would just walk away.

I am not sure what the ''offence'' is here. Was everyone 'working on the side' and not paying tax, or had they just not been registered properly?

There must be loads of 'casual labour' on the island, especially at the busiest times.

Does it have to be continued breaking of the law, or can a bar owner be done on a 'walk-in'?

[9PLUS]

More information is needed.


One thing Spain is cracking down on illegals if that is anything to do with this incident.

[golf birdie]

More information is needed.


One thing Spain is cracking down on illegals if that is anything to do with this incident.

and not before time.

[seanocelt]

I know of this story, i was working in the area at the time. A few bars got a visit, i know of one fined, then this story emerged. Very strong line seems to have been taken, and no leeway on family helping it seems. (even though they were in fact not helping). This was about a month ago, the inspectors then looked at a bar in know in the centre of PDLA. This type of crackdown is not new, but right now its obvious to all, funding cuts will have to be compensated somehow.

[Balcony]

Could it be that the people did not, as I think is required at all times, to have proper ID on them i.e. a passport? We may never know!

[LosRoques]

Sounds like an employment contract inspection. Our payroll accountant has told us that a lot of businesses have been hit in a variety of areas and she deals with only a very few ex-pat businesses. In once instance every restaurant in a particular area was hit, many were fined, all are owned by Spanish nationals.

My advice to anyone who has a business - make sure anyone that might be working for you, even for a few hours, has a contract of some kind. There are a variety of very flexible contracts available now that don't tie employers down.

You usually have 10 days grace period to register a contract for a new employee; this gives you the chance to catch up with a sudden change in workin environment.

We have contracts for everyone, even for a couple of staff that sometimes work for us and sometimes don't - they're on variable hour contracts where we can adjust the hours from 0 to full time as we need them. It's more administrative work, but it's certainly cheaper than a fine....!

As always, never sign anything you don't understand. If you're running a business in Spain you really should be able to speak Spanish, or have someone always on hand that can.

What's happened to this business is a real shame and is probably the result of bad advice. What's unfortunate is that many accountants and lawyers still don't give good/clear advice to people starting businesses regarding employment contracts and too many people are still listening to "street advice" of "oh, you don't need contracts, don't worry about it". This mainly because of the ingrained corruption of the system that employees, employers and govermnent have put up with for so long. However, the economic situation has changed and the government now need all that tax, so inspections and audits are going to become more common.

To be fair the government has most definitely made it easier for businesses regarding contracts and employing people part-time. Problem is, people have been getting away with not paying tax by not having contracts for so long they're reluctant now to pay tax at all.

[karaokeking]

Thanks for your posts, but i will just state again. The landlord had all his paperwork in order. The barman has worked there for years and has his contract and everything else he might need, but he didn't have his passport with him at the time. Let's face it how many people carry there passport with them all the time. You have more chance being robbed and having that stolen than leaving it in your apartment.

His partner dosen't work ther and only occasionaly comes to the bar. All she did was go behind the bar to get a coke for the landlords grandaughter. Yes i suppose technicaly she shouldn't have gone behind the bar, and she didn't have her passport with her either, but surely they should have given her time to go and get it and not say they couldn't wait. I know you can't have illegals working for you but surely a caution, and a quite word would have been enough because i'm sure he wouldn't make the same mistake again. He had never had a bar in the U/K and never even worked behind a bar. So like a few others thought he was going to live the dream, and of course it's all been shatered now. Is it worth the hassle. Thanks.

This bar i'm talking about previously spent thousands, on sound proofing. When midnight comes they close the double glazing of the bar to the outside. When i walk home after 12-00 there is all sorts of noise coming out of other bars, so do we presume they are Spanish and that's O/K.

[9PLUS]

wow amazing how the inspectors came in the second she went behind the bar to get a drink for the landlords grandaughter.

[LosRoques]

It's still not clear what the fines are for though; it seems unlikely that the fine would be for not carrying ID as that's usually handled by the police.

Side note: everyone must always have a valid national identity document with them at all times. This is required by law, and if you don't have it with you the police can hold you until they feel you have properly identified yourself. I don't know if there are any fines associated with this. I always carry my passport with me. It's the law.

You usually have the right of appeal against any fines (we've successfully appealed against fines from the Agencia Tributaria regarding import documents), however, if you've already signed to say you accept the fine then you may not have much luck.

My advice in this case, based on the very limited information given: get a good Spanish lawyer, quickly.