View Full Version : What are your thoughts on Scottish Independence?
Sundowner
13-01-2012, 13:46
Afraid not sundowner, Russia didnt have a say when the baltic states did a runner[/QUOTE]
I like that analogy;)
And let's hope history does not repeat itself.........Russia grew into a strong rich country and the Baltic states went bust:raspberry2:
I think he would love us to go personally, but cant stomach the thought of losing a bit more of the dwindling empire under his watch.
I'm not sure he is. The Conservatives are a Unionist party... although he might personally be a bit exasperated with the Scottish for his own reasons. The Tories have very little representation in Scotland and none in Northern Ireland but they remain Unionists.
Excuse me???????? The term "Little England" is springing to mind!
Yup, I noticed this. The 26 county entity hasn't been called "Southern Ireland" since the 1920s. Though it makes logical sense to call it Southern Ireland rather than by the two jurisdictions on the island: Ireland and Northern Ireland, although those two names are the correct way to refer to both territories.
Just to clarify, those riots were planned by "Official Sinn Fein" and their ilk. They paid local yobbos/criminals to attack the "love Ulster" parade, which by the way, was orchestrated to entice such a repsonse. The ordinary people couldn't give 2 s**ts about who was marching where.
I would have thought Dubliners must have otherwise been a more than a bit bemused, watching a motley crew of unionists (and probably loyalist bands?) marching through Dublin. ;)
Scotland and England have been married for over 300 years, if there is to be a divorce surely both should have a say?
The only real way you could do that is if both entities had a border poll on the same date as each other, at the same time as to whether the UK should be broken up.
Also, that would leave you on very dodgy territory with regards to Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement if any border poll was called there.
seanocelt
13-01-2012, 15:22
Why dont we all just state our positions then; no matter where you live, or are from, given a vote on Scottish independance are you a yay or nae and why?
Heres mine. Nay. Why? Id rather put Jimmy Hill in charge of Scotland than Alex Salmond.
yes,scotland should be free to make its own destiny and england will be free of the burden.all citizens should be given the choice to pick there alegence and where they live,england or scotland whatever there choice may be
londonjimmy
13-01-2012, 15:52
Without wanting to cause any upset...anyone who thinks that Scotland has lived off the back of England is severely misleaded. If you took the time to understand everything surrounding how the treasury and Scotlands "subsidy" works then perhaps you may have a much more well informed opinion. All I have ever heard was the barnett formula is unfair....then you look at the real economics. All previous Scottish ministers should hang their heads in shame for what has happened the past 50 years.
Sundowner
13-01-2012, 16:01
I as an Englishman think that Scotland should stay as part of the U.K.
But I also want equal rights for the English and that means that we also have our own English Parliament.
londonjimmy
13-01-2012, 16:05
I as an Englishman think that Scotland should stay as part of the U.K.
But I also want equal rights for the English and that means that we also have our own English Parliament.
I agreed Sundowner - I think the way the world is now the union of those 4 countries is a good thing. It also insulates the countries from the dominant EURO countries.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/06/22160331/6
Added after 5 minutes:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2010/06/22160331/6the continuing distribution of a per capita amount to each devolved areas higher than that allocated to England still continues to attract calls for the formula to be renegotiated. Using figures for the financial year 2006/2007,[4] if a UK-wide per capita average were a notional 100%, identifiable per capita expenditure on services in England would be 97% and the Scottish amount 117%. Wales would be 111% and Northern Ireland 127%. This comprises all expenditure that can be identified as being to the benefit of a particular country. It does not, however, take account of non-identifiable expenditure, such as defence and debt interest, which are deemed to be for the benefit of the entire UK, regardless as to where the money is all actually spent.
In actual monetary figures, this would work out as (per person):[5]
England £7,121
Scotland £8,623
Wales £8,139
Northern Ireland £9,385
I'd like tonypub to explain what England's burden is. His/Her ?? attitude may explain why a lot of Irish, Scots and Welsh people are anti-English. I also agree totally with Sundowner "Let England have their own Assembly", which is really what Ireland, Scotland and Wales have, not Governments. When they were originally devolved they were designated as "Assemblies".
I'd like tonypub to explain what England's burden is. His/Her ?? attitude may explain why a lot of Irish, Scots and Welsh people are anti-English. I also agree totally with Sundowner "Let England have their own Assembly", which is really what Ireland, Scotland and Wales have, not Governments. When they were originally devolved they were designated as "Assemblies".its all above you
seanocelt
13-01-2012, 17:08
A few pages back i asked, is this an economics driven debate?Raised and educated as a Scot, the independance issue was always more about aspirations of making our own mistakes, decisions and destiny than about money. There was talk of pride, of needing to feel free. The Salmonds of this world, politicos of the SNP moved those goalposts for their own ends over the years, i feel anyway.
londonjimmy
13-01-2012, 17:21
Tonypub -
2 things
1 - "if a UK-wide per capita average were a notional 100%" - North Sea revenues go directly to Westminster bypassing the Scottish government...there is alot to be said for that. Based on that formula completely right that per capita costs should be AT LEAST 20% more than Englands......bear in mind our population compare to the English population. Who props up who?
2 - "It does not, however, take account of non-identifiable expenditure, such as defence and debt interest, which are deemed to be for the benefit of the entire UK, regardless as to where the money is all actually spent." The laughable part here is that we cannot make our own policies on National Defence.....wonder where that defence money goes.......
As a Scotsman who lives in England, can we please get a couple of very important points right on this thread
1) There is no Scottish Parliament - under the Devolution Bill the Scottish and Welsh bodies are actually called Assemblies. I believe that the SNP over the years since devolution have gradually introduced the idea that they are an official Parliament.
2) North Sea Oil does not and never has belonged to Scotland. It is a UK resource.
Having got that of my chest, in my humble opinion, independence for Scotland would be an unmitigated disaster. It would never be able to generate enough income to finance the grandiose plans that the SNP seem to have for it.
londonjimmy
13-01-2012, 18:16
@BOBMAC - I think you will find that the bulk of reserves are all in Scottish Waters. If the UK deosnt exist anymore then who does it belong to? In my humble opinion.....check your facts.
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 18:52
I agree with Sundowner on the English Parliament issue and dont understand why they dont. The anti Scottishness has been building since devolution, Bobmac points out the fact thats its an assembly, it is not a government, I dont think the majority of English realise that, not because they are stupid but because its off no interest to them most of the time. I also agree that people dont really understand what the forumla is, they just copy and paste the parts that suit their arguement. It is unfair and always has been (to various regions within england too) but no one has come up with another way. Can any English contributors tell us if they think English people should have their own assembly to deal with domestic issues, run by English representitives, for the good of their own people.
Personally i would vote for independance, at the right time, with the right leaders and policies. If that time doesnt arrive, then so be it. I have no hatred of the United Kingdom, but i have no flag waving allegiance to it either. Priority is what is best for Scotland, if we vote to go, and the English are happy..fair enough. If we vote to stay and the English are not happy...tough. Its Scotlands decision to make. If the English want independance , they can vote for it
londonjimmy
13-01-2012, 19:10
If the English want independance , they can vote for it
I like that point, as it is 'a union'.....if England wanted independence to break away from union, let them have a referendum.
The anti Scottishness has been building since devolution
I actually think that this is because English identity is actually very repressed in England whereas it is not in Scotland. To the English, the Scottish are allowed to be Scottish, the Welsh are allowed to be Welsh, the Northern Irish are just loopy (and bomb England occasionally to prove it!) but the English have never really been allowed to stress who they are (whether through English nationalism or overt British unionism) as it has so often been characterised by certain politically motivated sectors of the population as 'racist'. I believe that the bitterness was there before devolution and has been there for quite some time but has become more and more pronounced. I think many English people feel repressed about their identities.
An Englishman will see the Scots moaning constantly about Scotland this, Scotland that (to him) as though they are the centre of the universe. They are probably just proud of their country in ways that the English are not really allowed to be. That's probably the things that have sealed the nature of the division. And after the Assemblies were brought in obviously this difference was magnified and played up by the nationalists as much as they could, leaving many English feeling increasingly bitter about the deal that they were now paying for - that the other regions of the UK increasingly had more social benefits than the English had and that they were sometimes discriminated against. After ten years of this, a lot of English don't really care about unionism as it doesn't feel very equal to them.
Personally I'd like to scrap devolution and have genuine local democracies (at county council level, perhaps) with the big parliament at Westminster only looking after things nationally that cannot be decided locally.
I think an English parliament is a non-starter if you don't get rid of the UK parliament as, again, England is the dominant partner in the UK. Anyway, do the English really want yet another crop of self-satisfied politicians?
That's my take on it, anyway.
the Northern Irish are just loopy (and bomb England occasionally to prove it!)
As an Irishman, not the nicest comment I've ever seen!
As an Irishman, not the nicest comment I've ever seen!
True, but that's how a lot of us think especially for those of us who have never actually spent time there. (And I know that for your part a lot of Irish people don't necessarily like the English either.)
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 19:45
As an Irishman, not the nicest comment I've ever seen!
Agreed, Beefan, the English have committed genocide and ethnic cleansing within these islands....from time to time
Those days ( from our point of view ) are long gone. I wish I could say the same for the small minority of English. We should really start another thread about this because it detracts from the original topic.
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 19:46
True, but that's how a lot of us think especially for those of us who have never actually spent time there. (And I know that for your part a lot of Irish people don't necessarily like the English either.)
i wonder why that could be!!!!
Those days ( from our point of view ) are long gone.
Indeed - and Ireland is a nice place to visit and live, despite its present woes.
cainaries
13-01-2012, 19:50
I actually think that this is because English identity is actually very repressed in England whereas it is not in Scotland. To the English, the Scottish are allowed to be Scottish, the Welsh are allowed to be Welsh, the Northern Irish are just loopy (and bomb England occasionally to prove it!) but the English have never really been allowed to stress who they are (whether through English nationalism or overt British unionism) as it has so often been characterised by certain politically motivated sectors of the population as 'racist'. I believe that the bitterness was there before devolution and has been there for quite some time but has become more and more pronounced. I think many English people feel repressed about their identities.
An Englishman will see the Scots moaning constantly about Scotland this, Scotland that (to him) as though they are the centre of the universe. They are probably just proud of their country in ways that the English are not really allowed to be. That's probably the things that have sealed the nature of the division. And after the Assemblies were brought in obviously this difference was magnified and played up by the nationalists as much as they could, leaving many English feeling increasingly bitter about the deal that they were now paying for - that the other regions of the UK increasingly had more social benefits than the English had and that they were sometimes discriminated against. After ten years of this, a lot of English don't really care about unionism as it doesn't feel very equal to them.
Personally I'd like to scrap devolution and have genuine local democracies (at county council level, perhaps) with the big parliament at Westminster only looking after things nationally that cannot be decided locally.
I think an English parliament is a non-starter if you don't get rid of the UK parliament as, again, England is the dominant partner in the UK. Anyway, do the English really want yet another crop of self-satisfied politicians?
That's my take on it, anyway.
With apologies to dokgolf and I can understand why he doesn't like your comment and I don't agree that that is how the English see the Northern Irish, as an Englishwoman and from the south, I think you are right. Which is probably why some of the comments on here have really annoyed me.
Going back to tonypub's statistics about how much money per head is spent in each country, I would prefer that this is exactly the same throughout the UK and if an Assembly wishes to spend more then it can raise its own taxes in order to cover the extra costs. I am not too sure if I would vote for an English Assembly because that would just be another layer of inefficient government but I would like to see revisions to the Constitution so that Scottish MPs (or any other MPs come to that) can't vote on matters which don't concern them.
Having been reading today about the financial messes the Spanish autonomous regions have managed to get themselves into, I also would not support 'genuine local democracies' unless the financial regulations were extremely strict.
I am not too sure if I would vote for an English Assembly because that would just be another layer of inefficient government but I would like to see revisions to the Constitution so that Scottish MPs (or any other MPs come to that) can't vote on matters which don't concern them.
I do believe that Scottish MPs and ministers had some sort of special meetings inside the UK parliamentary system pre-devolution in order to discuss and work out matters intended for Scotland. Does anyone know about this?
Also, I generally agree with what you're saying but in some circumstances, the wishes of the MPs from different regions of the UK may have to be overruled. Would you want to leave Northern Ireland's affairs entirely in the hands of their local parties (whether in Westminster or elsewhere)? 1922-1972?
With apologies to dokgolf and I can understand why he doesn't like your comment and I don't agree that that is how the English see the Northern Irish, as an Englishwoman and from the south, I think you are right. Which is probably why some of the comments on here have really annoyed me.
Going back to tonypub's statistics about how much money per head is spent in each country, I would prefer that this is exactly the same throughout the UK and if an Assembly wishes to spend more then it can raise its own taxes in order to cover the extra costs. I am not too sure if I would vote for an English Assembly because that would just be another layer of inefficient government but I would like to see revisions to the Constitution so that Scottish MPs (or any other MPs come to that) can't vote on matters which don't concern them.
Having been reading today about the financial messes the Spanish autonomous regions have managed to get themselves into, I also would not support 'genuine local democracies' unless the financial regulations were extremely strict.
The Eurozone could learn a lot frothat comment Cainaries!:tiphat:
@BOBMAC - I think you will find that the bulk of reserves are all in Scottish Waters. If the UK deosnt exist anymore then who does it belong to? In my humble opinion.....check your facts.
You need to check your facts !!
Under International Law, unless they are within 12 miles of the Scottish coast, they are in International Waters , NOT Scottish Waters.
As far as I am aware, there are no oil rigs in the North Sea which are owned completely by any Scottish companies; they are all owned by either UK companies or International companies.
I would also point out that very little of the products from the North Sea fields actually come ashore in Scotland.
I do believe that Scottish MPs and ministers had some sort of special meetings inside the UK parliamentary system pre-devolution in order to discuss and work out matters intended for Scotland. Does anyone know about this?
Also, I generally agree with what you're saying but in some circumstances, the wishes of the MPs from different regions of the UK may have to be overruled. Would you want to leave Northern Ireland's affairs entirely in the hands of their local parties (whether in Westminster or elsewhere)? 1922-1972?
You mean in the hands of one party don't you? That's what caused the troubles in the first place>
You mean in the hands of one party don't you? That's what caused the troubles in the first place>
Not necessarily. More than one can play at that game (though, yes, I agree that the Unionists could have run NI a lot better to put it mildly). I meant that if community relations in NI should rapidly deteriorate even more than they already are with the largest parties there encouraging that mindset and doing nothing to prevent it and being at each other's throats even when people are dying again. I think the Assembly sort-of functions because it has the support of all parties and the UK (and Irish government in a consultation role) has the power to intervene if things go badly. (Like I say, I'm not from NI so my experience of NI politics is limited.)
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 20:07
I actually think that this is because English identity is actually very repressed in England whereas it is not in Scotland. To the English, the Scottish are allowed to be Scottish, the Welsh are allowed to be Welsh, the Northern Irish are just loopy (and bomb England occasionally to prove it!) but the English have never really been allowed to stress who they are (whether through English nationalism or overt British unionism) as it has so often been characterised by certain politically motivated sectors of the population as 'racist'. I believe that the bitterness was there before devolution and has been there for quite some time but has become more and more pronounced. I think many English people feel repressed about their identities.
An Englishman will see the Scots moaning constantly about Scotland this, Scotland that (to him) as though they are the centre of the universe. They are probably just proud of their country in ways that the English are not really allowed to be. That's probably the things that have sealed the nature of the division. And after the Assemblies were brought in obviously this difference was magnified and played up by the nationalists as much as they could, leaving many English feeling increasingly bitter about the deal that they were now paying for - that the other regions of the UK increasingly had more social benefits than the English had and that they were sometimes discriminated against. After ten years of this, a lot of English don't really care about unionism as it doesn't feel very equal to them.
Personally I'd like to scrap devolution and have genuine local democracies (at county council level, perhaps) with the big parliament at Westminster only looking after things nationally that cannot be decided locally.
I think an English parliament is a non-starter if you don't get rid of the UK parliament as, again, England is the dominant partner in the UK. Anyway, do the English really want yet another crop of self-satisfied politicians?
That's my take on it, anyway.
Now that IS something that annoys me about the English. I hear it all the time, we cant do this, we are not allowed to do that.....who says!!!!
A instance I have heard about...dont know if they are true....not allowed to fly the St george flag...bulls**t...who is going to jail you if everyone put a flag up on St georges day. It is up to the people to do these things, we all know politicians are PC daft, but normal people are entitled to show national pride. If you want to do something like hang your countries flag, do it. I dont think its fair to blame the other countries strong sense of identity. Years ago the BNP and their ilk, hijacked the union flag and the St Georges flag, but its time to take it back.
There are plenty of positive things about England, past and present (did I just say that haha) that you could shout from the rooftops, but there seems to be a hesitancy, in case someone is offended, as long as no one else is being negatively targetted with the show of national pride...buggar them, if they dont like it, dont look. Only the people can change their own perception of them selves. If they feel repressed, they should do something about it.
Added after 4 minutes:
I do believe that Scottish MPs and ministers had some sort of special meetings inside the UK parliamentary system pre-devolution in order to discuss and work out matters intended for Scotland. Does anyone know about this?
Also, I generally agree with what you're saying but in some circumstances, the wishes of the MPs from different regions of the UK may have to be overruled. Would you want to leave Northern Ireland's affairs entirely in the hands of their local parties (whether in Westminster or elsewhere)? 1922-1972?
Google West Lothian Question, Tam Dayell brought the subject up years before devolution
Bbut there seems to be a hesitancy, in case someone is offended, as long as no one else is being negatively targetted with the show of national pride...
The problem is that it's all tied in with mass immigration and a whole host of other things and we're not allowed to express an opinion on these either, as well as some people receiving harassment from councils and other people for flying their flags (though these seem to be admittedly rare).
And yes, our national flag is tied up with the BNP and other racists which suits the "global villagers" and the lefties as it keeps a sense of guilt that really shouldn't be there. Basically, in England it's considered OK only to see the flag when it serves the purposes of the Establishment (like the Royal Wedding) or other official sporting contests. Any other time it's seen as worse than mud.
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 20:14
You need to check your facts !!
Under International Law, unless they are within 12 miles of the Scottish coast, they are in International Waters , NOT Scottish Waters.
As far as I am aware, there are no oil rigs in the North Sea which are owned completely by any Scottish companies; they are all owned by either UK companies or International companies.
I would also point out that very little of the products from the North Sea fields actually come ashore in Scotland.
Your right Maggie sold off the family silver to the highest bidder, and yes most of it comes ashore in England.....again Maggies decision....I wonder why?
Added after 8 minutes:
The problem is that it's all tied in with mass immigration and a whole host of other things and we're not allowed to express an opinion on these either, as well as some people receiving harassment from councils and other people for flying their flags (though these seem to be admittedly rare).
And yes, our national flag is tied up with the BNP and other racists which suits the "global villagers" and the lefties as it keeps a sense of guilt that really shouldn't be there. Basically, in England it's considered OK only to see the flag when it serves the purposes of the Establishment (like the Royal Wedding) or other official sporting contests. Any other time it's seen as worse than mud.
We have immigration in Scotland, I know pakistanis, that call themselves Scottish pakistanis and were even persuaded to wear kilts at New Year. I know a Polish girl who says she is Scottish/Polish. And i always remember the laugh it got at X factor when a man who was clearly from an African state , because of his strong accent was asked by Cowell, where are you from. His answer.. Glasgow.
I know Salmond has been given flack because people like these are going to be given a vote on Independance. Why not, they have chosen Scotland as their home.
Again, its up to the English people to take back their flag. if a council are being morons then the people should march on the town hall when they are in a meeting and demand to know why its a problem... a bit of civil disobedience is whats needed.
Can beerfan please elaborate on his remark about the Northern Irish, I thinke he's confused. I am Scottish but find the remark to be very offensive.
cainaries
13-01-2012, 20:48
The problem is that it's all tied in with mass immigration and a whole host of other things and we're not allowed to express an opinion on these either, as well as some people receiving harassment from councils and other people for flying their flags (though these seem to be admittedly rare).
And yes, our national flag is tied up with the BNP and other racists which suits the "global villagers" and the lefties as it keeps a sense of guilt that really shouldn't be there. Basically, in England it's considered OK only to see the flag when it serves the purposes of the Establishment (like the Royal Wedding) or other official sporting contests. Any other time it's seen as worse than mud.
Did they fly the English flag at the Royal Wedding, beerfan?!? I'd have been very surprised but I'm not saying you're wrong.
I would like to say that the loudest cheer I ever heard at Twickenham had nothing to do with English rugby but greeted the announcement that Italy had beaten Scotland in a 6 Nations Match a few years ago.
Did they fly the English flag at the Royal Wedding, beerfan?!? I'd have been very surprised but I'm not saying you're wrong.
Sorry, displaying my unionist bias here! I was referring to the Union Jack, which I consider the flag of my country (which is the UK), not the English flag.
That said, my point works just as well regardless of what flag we are discussing. As an aside, the Union Jack is far more associated with the BNP mob than the English flag ever was.
Can beerfan please elaborate on his remark about the Northern Irish, I thinke he's confused. I am Scottish but find the remark to be very offensive.
I was referring to the demented tribalism, territory marking and general unhingedness of a minority of the people there on both sides of the divide. Most people there are normal enough but yes, to an outsider Northern Ireland (or rather, its loudest voices) do seem loopy.
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 21:08
Did they fly the English flag at the Royal Wedding, beerfan?!? I'd have been very surprised but I'm not saying you're wrong.
I would like to say that the loudest cheer I ever heard at Twickenham had nothing to do with English rugby but greeted the announcement that Italy had beaten Scotland in a 6 Nations Match a few years ago.
Biggest cheer i heard was when we were in a Spanish bar, with Spanish, Germans, French, Scots, Irish and Welsh watching Germany beat England 4 - 1, everybody was cheering , without exception :D
Your right Maggie sold off the family silver to the highest bidder, and yes most of it comes ashore in England.....again Maggies decision....I wonder why?
Surely this is something that leaders love to do. Sell our assets to the lowest bidder. Gordon B sold our gold when it was at it's lowest value. I wonder if Cash4gold would clear our national debt if it was sold today.
It would appear that a lot of people on here have gone off the subject of Scottish Independence.
Surely this is something that leaders love to do. Sell our assets to the lowest bidder. Gordon B sold our gold when it was at it's lowest value. I wonder if Cash4gold would clear our national debt if it was sold today.
I believe this Person is a Scot.?
If so. claiming OUR Money back would bankrupt You all, and have nothing to be Independent with...
A Scottish Prime Minister He was, and No-one turned a Hair, so Why should We English want rid.?
P.S. Beerfan doesn't speak for Me.. or I suspect, for many Others either.!!
caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 21:58
It would appear that a lot of people on here have gone off the subject of Scottish Independence.
a ken, everyone has given thoughts on independance, pity poor alex if the Scots at home have the same view as the Scots on here. But he will still have his third option to fall back on
Sundowner
13-01-2012, 22:07
There is some nonsense on here.
1st the four elements of the U.K. have a bit of banter between them......but who would not help a fellow U.K citizen if they were in trouble!?
2nd I know Northern Ireland very well and it's full of very nice people and has the same proportion of idiots as the rest of the U.K. But also has the same proportion of very nice people as well!!
3rd My Mother has told me she wants her ashes scattered on the Horseshoe Pass in Wales as she loves Wales and the Welsh so much! She has never met Monkey.........so she is entitled to her opinion:confused::D
4th Scotland has a rich history and some issues with England..........probable not as many as the Irish! Let's not forget that it was the Scots who wanted Union with England...........even back in the eighteenth century they knew the value of a pound :) So let them have their vote........for better or worse,richer or poorer:agree:
cainaries
14-01-2012, 01:09
Biggest cheer i heard was when we were in a Spanish bar, with Spanish, Germans, French, Scots, Irish and Welsh watching Germany beat England 4 - 1, everybody was cheering , without exception :D
Where I am the Germans are not at all popular with the locals - is this different in Tenerife or wherever you were?
caroletenerife
14-01-2012, 01:19
Where I am the Germans are not at all popular with the locals - is this different in Tenerife or wherever you were?
It was in a Spanish bar in San Eugenio, Tenerife, may be their not popular with the locals, I dont know. But they were obviously more popular than the English team that night
bonitatime
14-01-2012, 10:46
Or perhaps there were some Spanish speaking Germans. Europeans in a group often use Spanish as a common language.
Europeans in a group often use Spanish as a common language.
Wouldn't English be a much more likely candidate? More Europeans are likely to know English than Spanish, I would have thought.
the way the euros goin we will all be speaking german soon.
the way the euros goin we will all be speaking german soon.
Ich spreche kein Deutsch.
cainaries
14-01-2012, 16:57
Wouldn't English be a much more likely candidate? More Europeans are likely to know English than Spanish, I would have thought.
Depends where you are. We talk in Spanish to the Germans here as very few of them speak English (mainly retired Ossies here and they learnt Russian at school) - also, it seems politer to talk the local language. It does confuse the locals to hear a group of Extranjeros talking Spanish.
bonitatime
14-01-2012, 18:22
Wouldn't English be a much more likely candidate? More Europeans are likely to know English than Spanish, I would have thought.
But if there is one Spaniard in the group Spanish is used as a respect to where we are. Or at least this works with ys when we are out
I'm a bit puzzled here.
Is Someone suggesting the Scots and English politicians negotiate in German or Spanish..
Why not English...?
caroletenerife
14-01-2012, 19:50
I'm a bit puzzled here.
Is Someone suggesting the Scots and English politicians negotiate in German or Spanish..
Why not English...?
aafff topic, but the topic was getting boring anyway...nothing to do but wait and see how it pans out. I personally think it will a third option
willowlily
14-01-2012, 20:00
there is talk within the english politicians that the english should have a referendum whether we want the scots to stay in the uk, but as the british are still waiting for a referendum on the eu this is unlikly
caroletenerife
14-01-2012, 20:38
there is talk within the english politicians that the english should have a referendum whether we want the scots to stay in the uk, but as the british are still waiting for a referendum on the eu this is unlikly
They cant, Scotlands future is for the Scottish people to decide. English MP's are miffed (probably understandable) that the future of the Union and how it affects England will be decided by someone other than themselves. But then thats whats been happening to the Scots for 300 years.
bonitatime
14-01-2012, 22:22
They cant, Scotlands future is for the Scottish people to decide. English MP's are miffed (probably understandable) that the future of the Union and how it affects England will be decided by someone other than themselves. But then thats whats been happening to the Scots for 300 years.
But would this be a referendum where people are compelled to vote or just those who care. Like the last ones?
aafff topic, but the topic was getting boring anyway...nothing to do but wait and see how it pans out. I personally think it will a third option
a federal UK?
caroletenerife
14-01-2012, 23:05
But would this be a referendum where people are compelled to vote or just those who care. Like the last ones? Can they 'make ' people vote? all this started in the 70's. A referendum was held on devolution with 63% turn out and 52% voting for it. However a condition had been included which, was kept secret from the voters meant 40% of total electorate HAD to vote Yes, not JUST the majority of those who voted. Given only 63% voted...the yes vote was less than 40%, hence no devolution in the 1970's.
I dont think the London could get away with that tactic today. Voter apathy should not count as a no vote, as it did in the 1970's. Whether you can get people off their bums to vote would depend on how well the campaign is managed...text messaging your vote has been mentioned.
Added after 4 minutes:
a federal UK?
I havent read that much about this Devo max business. But dont the Channel Islands have that kind of relationship with Uk government
But dont the Channel Islands have that kind of relationship with Uk government
Well... sort of. The Channel Islands (comprised of the governmental units of Guernsey and Jersey) and the Isle of Man are considered 'Crown Dependencies', which means that they are not part of the UK or the EU (though they do have an agreement with the EU that allows for the free movement of goods but not people) but share a different governmental relationship with the UK than, say, 'Overseas Territories' would.
The Dependencies basically have their own internal government departments and enact their own laws but ultimate responsibility for the safety and security of the islands remains with the UK. They and have their own car registration plates, for instance. Their postal services have been privatised and are not the same as the ones in the UK but they are part of the UK's postcode system.
However, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands group do share similarities with the UK: they print their own banknotes and coins of the pound sterling which are interchangeable with UK-produced currency (although the Manx and Channel Islands versions are technically listed as separate currencies, they're not really); they watch the same TV as we do (the Channel Islands even have their own ITV1 region); they're considered to be British (but not EU) citizens; and all the Crown Dependencies form part of the UK's postcode and telephone numbering system with all mail and calls to the islands being charged at UK rates.
Added after 4 minutes:
there is talk within the english politicians that the english should have a referendum whether we want the scots to stay in the uk
I can't see this going down at all well with the Scottish.
A better way of doing it would be for England to have a referendum on the subject of England leaving the UK, effectively bringing the Union to an end. I really doubt it will happen though due to the endless complications it would bring all four countries.
but as the british are still waiting for a referendum on the eu this is unlikly
Indeed.
cainaries
15-01-2012, 00:35
I'm a bit puzzled here.
Is Someone suggesting the Scots and English politicians negotiate in German or Spanish..
Why not English...?
Whole thread was doing my head in Warbs, so when it strayed off into pastures new, I was only too happy to help it along!:D
caroletenerife
15-01-2012, 01:33
Well at least the politicians will be earning their wages on this one. Wee Eck and his mates will be burning the midnight oil trying to figure out how to get people on side, I know they will target the young vote, they have quite a lot of support there. Maybe its the romantic notion of being able to shout FREEDOM from your council flat windy.(actually thats not fair, i would say the young today are more politically aware than in bygone days) Would love to be a fly on the wall when Dave, Nick and Ed meet up for tea and biscuits to scupper the plans. They all worked together the last time to make sure it didn't happen.
There's an old Scottish Folk Song, written by Rabbie Burns, "A Parcel Of Rogues In A Nation". What a far-reaching knowledge "Oor Rabbie" must have had, he knew about Salmond and the SNP even then !!!! The biggest "Parcel Of Rogues" we've ever experienced !!!
Hopefully common sense will prevail, I don't want my grandchildren to suffer because of a meglamaniac like Alex Salmond !!!!
CaribeCelt
15-01-2012, 07:05
I thought Rab Burns wrote that song for the people who scuppered the right of the Scottish people to an Independent country?
Beautiful song,by the way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fBY1m-jnAFg
bonitatime
15-01-2012, 08:30
Can they 'make ' people vote? all this started in the 70's. A referendum was held on devolution with 63% turn out and 52% voting for it. However a condition had been included which, was kept secret from the voters meant 40% of total electorate HAD to vote Yes, not JUST the majority of those who voted. Given only 63% voted...the yes vote was less than 40%, hence no devolution in the 1970's.
It is for example obligatory in Austria to vote in the Presidential elections. That was more what I meant.
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 09:35
The SNP "Scottish Nutcase Party" have little or no chance of wining an independance vote in Scotland. I stay in Angus and we been SNP controlled for years and what a bunch of small minded clowns they are if you roll this model out nationwide god help us all. In the very very very very remote chance they win the vote I will be in Tenerife within the week and would give all my kids enough money to help them get out and have a future some where else. I love my country but the thought of Alex Salmond being in charge makes my blood run cold.
It is for example obligatory in Austria to vote in the Presidential elections. That was more what I meant.
No it isn't - it was completely abolished there in 2004.
There are ten different countries and one Swiss region that enforces compulsory voting:
Argentina (Compulsory for citizens between 18 and 70 years old, non-compulsory for those older than 70. However in primaries, citizens under 70 may refuse to vote, if they formally express their decision to the electoral authorities, at least 48 hours before the election. This is valid only for the subsequent primary, and needs to be repeated every time the voter wishes not to participate.)
Australia (Compulsory enrollment and voting for state and national elections for all eligible adults 18 and above. In some states local council elections are compulsory too.)
Brazil (Non-compulsory for citizens between 16 and 18 years old, those older than 70 and illiterate people.)
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Ecuador (Compulsory for citizens between 18 and 65 years old; non-compulsory for citizens aged 16–18, illiterate people, and those older than 65.)
Luxembourg (Only for the regionals and if signed up.)
Nauru
Peru (Compulsory for citizens between 18 and 70 years old, non-compulsory for those older than 70.)
Schaffhausen region of Switzerland
Singapore (Compulsory for citizens above 21 years old with effect from 1st January of the year of election.)
Uruguay
Many more countries have compulsory voting on their books but it's not enforced there - Belgium, Cyprus, Egypt, France, Greece and Mexico amongst others.
caroletenerife
15-01-2012, 12:26
The SNP "Scottish Nutcase Party" have little or no chance of wining an independance vote in Scotland. I stay in Angus and we been SNP controlled for years and what a bunch of small minded clowns they are if you roll this model out nationwide god help us all. In the very very very very remote chance they win the vote I will be in Tenerife within the week and would give all my kids enough money to help them get out and have a future some where else. I love my country but the thought of Alex Salmond being in charge makes my blood run cold.
Ditto Jim, I used to live in Arbroath, so I feel your pain. Where are you from? I was home at Christmas, the new office of the SNP are very swankie, in prime site right outside the Abbey. The rest of the high Street was empty apart from 'poundlands' and 99p shops. They proudly used to claim they had the lowest council tax in Scotland, but they also had the lowest spend on Childrens education. Its all gloss and no substance. It would be like the English voting for Independance will Boris Johnson at the helm.
It would be like the English voting for Independance will Boris Johnson at the helm.
Not if the people behind him really knew what they were doing. Also, Johnson isn't nearly as stupid as he makes out.
caroletenerife
15-01-2012, 12:40
Not if the people behind him really knew what they were doing. Also, Johnson isn't nearly as stupid as he makes out.
We would rather not have a puppet on stage, with the strings being pulled from behind. There is too much of that going on in the world as it is. Johnson might not be stupid, he still a tw*t. Today is the birthday of Dr Martin Luther King....oh for a leader like that, men of his substance dont exist in todays world. The last Scottish minister i had any real respect for was John Smith.
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 12:44
Ditto Jim, I used to live in Arbroath, so I feel your pain. Where are you from? I was home at Christmas, the new office of the SNP are very swankie, in prime site right outside the Abbey. The rest of the high Street was empty apart from 'poundlands' and 99p shops. They proudly used to claim they had the lowest council tax in Scotland, but they also had the lowest spend on Childrens education. Its all gloss and no substance. It would be like the English voting for Independance will Boris Johnson at the helm.
Originally from Brechin but I now live in Forfar. Cannot say too much about SNP in Arbroath as my brotherin law & sister in law were both in recent times SNP councillors :whistle:
Added after 5 minutes:
Think Billy Connolly had it about right about politicians in general www.youtube.com/watch?v=58OBTi18bsY
caroletenerife
15-01-2012, 13:21
haha, its not Alex King is it ?? To be fair, if you phoned him, he got on the case. I dont think small time politicians are the problem, its when the power goes to their head and the ego starts getting in the way. Im pretty sure Alex sees himself as Scotlands saviour, if he could go down and elbow the Bruce of the monument and sit on it himself....he would. I'd vote for Billy over this lot anyday x
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 13:30
haha, its not Alex King is it ?? To be fair, if you phoned him, he got on the case. I dont think small time politicians are the problem, its when the power goes to their head and the ego starts getting in the way. Im pretty sure Alex sees himself as Scotlands saviour, if he could go down and elbow the Bruce of the monument and sit on it himself....he would. I'd vote for Billy over this lot anyday x
No they are both from " ANGUS" :laugh::whistle:
caroletenerife
15-01-2012, 14:50
No they are both from " ANGUS" :laugh::whistle:
i would need to ask my daughter, i've not lived there for 4 years, were they any good :D.
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 14:54
i would need to ask my daughter, i've not lived there for 4 years, were they any good :D.
I am sorry cannot answer due to family reasons :D but have to go now I am away to Jumping Joey's in Arbroath with my grandson
caroletenerife
15-01-2012, 14:56
I am sorry cannot answer due to family reasons :D but have to go now I am away to Jumping Joey's in Arbroath with my grandson
enjoy, say hello to my grandaughter , she there today haha. Only place TO GO haha
Sundowner
15-01-2012, 21:43
We would rather not have a puppet on stage, with the strings being pulled from behind. There is too much of that going on in the world as it is. Johnson might not be stupid, he still a tw*t. Today is the birthday of Dr Martin Luther King....oh for a leader like that, men of his substance dont exist in todays world. The last Scottish minister i had any real respect for was John Smith.
I live in London and I voted for Boris............and think it is a bit rich for a Scot who say's that the Scots will decide their future because it's their concern and nobody else's to have the gall to pass judgement on a man who was voted in by the people of London!!!!
I_N_Cognito
16-01-2012, 03:05
We would rather not have a puppet on stage, with the strings being pulled from behind. There is too much of that going on in the world as it is. Johnson might not be stupid, he still a tw*t. Today is the birthday of Dr Martin Luther King....oh for a leader like that, men of his substance dont exist in todays world. The last Scottish minister i had any real respect for was John Smith.
Is this the same Martin Luther King that was supposedly ****** at J F Kennedys funeral and wanted to organise an orgy ?
If only Tommy had been around at the time...........
Or possibly Edwina, Major, Archer, Profumo, Prescot !, Blunkett !!!, etc, etc.
All upstanding pillars of society..............
Well suppose it makes a change from screwing the taxpaying voters.
Obviously a lot of contributors here have lost the plot as most of the forum, so far, has little to do with Scottish Independence. The only similarity is that Alex Salmond really has nothing to do with Scottish Independence. As I have said before, his priorities are :- 1) Alex Salmond's Ego 2) Alex Salmond's Ego 3) Alex Salmond's Ego > Infinity !!!!
Added after 11 minutes:
John Smith was a man I would have liked to have seen as a Labour Prime Minister although I am not a Labour Party Supporter. I am sure there would have been no messing about with expenses, scandals etc with him in charge. Unfortunately his untimely death destroyed that one. Donald Dewar the Father of the Scottish Parliament, in my opinion, was very much misguided although a very nice person. If the Labour Government hadn't changed the rules on the Devolution Vote we wouldn't have the mess we are now experiencing and "The Sun" & "Daily Record" have a lot to answer for.
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 05:09
I live in London and I voted for Boris............and think it is a bit rich for a Scot who say's that the Scots will decide their future because it's their concern and nobody else's to have the gall to pass judgement on a man who was voted in by the people of London!!!!
yeh, its not nice having people passing judgement and having a say on things that dont concern them ...is it
Scottish independance is surely a concern to everyone in the UK, even if its only because we wouldnt want our kindred spirits to potentially destroy themselves.
Scottish independance is surely a concern to everyone in the UK, even if its only because we wouldnt want our kindred spirits to potentially destroy themselves.
It's a concern, yes, definitely, but at the end of the day it's up to the Scottish what they want to do. The same would apply to the English if England decided to opt for independence - the other three countries shouldn't have a say on that either. See how it works? ;)
Also, I think the Scottish independence debate is being followed a lot on both sides of the Irish border, particularly in Northern Ireland.
The UK could survive without Northern Ireland (a slightly greater percentage of Catholics in Northern Ireland consider themselves more Unionist than the English according to one survey I saw a few months back!). I'm not sure it could survive without Scotland, if only because a major name and a flag change would be needed which would be more minor in NI's case. Also NI is seen as more peripheral to the UK than Scotland or Wales given that it's on a completely different island.
John Smith was a man I would have liked to have seen as a Labour Prime Minister although I am not a Labour Party Supporter. I am sure there would have been no messing about with expenses, scandals etc with him in charge.
The MP's have been feathering their own nests for decades. John Smith most likely took his fair share of cookies (pun intended).
Do you think that Alex wants his cake and eat it? I think he wants all the benefits and non of the burden. Anyway, we will see how it pans out. My feeling is that in-spite of all the negative Alex Salmon feelings from the Tenerife and Scottish Scots it will be a resounding YES vote come the day.
Anyone but England!
My feeling is that in-spite of all the negative Alex Salmon feelings from the Tenerife and Scottish Scots it will be a resounding YES vote come the day.
I really doubt it as there are most likely a fewer percentage of Scottish people that want independence for Scotland than there are Irish nationalists/republicans in NI. And NI has been part of the UK for nearly 100 years.
the good thing for the scots will be they will have holiday money(euros)all the time,so you will all have fond memories of tenerife and when you could afford to go there pre independence:crylaughing:
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 11:48
the good thing for the scots will be they will have holiday money(euros)all the time,so you will all have fond memories of tenerife and when you could afford to go there pre independence:crylaughing:
yesterdays poll showing the majority of English want Scotland to go will be a good enough reason for some Scots to vote no...to to annoy the English, and of course theres always the added bonus of keeping all that lovely free money to spend on the holidays on Tenerife:thanx:
A lot of the arguments here are based on the financial aspect of things. Of course, if it was purely a financial question, then the Scots would be mad as a bag of frogs to want out. However, these things are never about finances alone. The Scots are very patriotic and at every opportunity to be Anti-English, they jump on board.
It's not often you hear a Scot saying they are BRITISH. You do hear a lot of English saying they are BRITISH though.
Anyone but the English! This will be the call they march to. The financial argument will be a poor second to the patriotic one.
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 11:54
Why would they say ABE, that refers to football. As there wouldnt be any English Mp's running it doesnt relate to the issue
can the scotch please keep there football results whatever happens:lol:
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 12:02
can the scotch please keep there football results whatever happens:lol:
what are you trying to say, Arbroaths got a braw team, the wind at Gayfield takes most of the opposition out.. By the way, I have an official Man Utd top (large)in the shop, its got Rooneys name on it...5euros, if anybody wants it (dont worry it doesnt have his picture on it)
A lot of the arguments here are based on the financial aspect of things. Of course, if it was purely a financial question, then the Scots would be mad as a bag of frogs to want out. However, these things are never about finances alone. The Scots are very patriotic and at every opportunity to be Anti-English, they jump on board.
It's not often you hear a Scot saying they are BRITISH. You do hear a lot of English saying they are BRITISH though.
Anyone but the English! This will be the call they march to. The financial argument will be a poor second to the patriotic one.
On one point you are right, being Scottish is what we are, and being part of great Britain cannot be disputed, but in general we are not anti English, I think you may be mistaking the banter that comes from sporting events as a feeling of being anti British, this is just a perception that people who have generally never lived or worked among us have, walk into most bars in Scotland and you will find the Scottish folk to be warm and welcoming and if English folk are careful not to voice any narrow minded preconceived ideas, they may even buy you a dram or two, as you may find that Tony as a bar owner will also say is true.
Why would they say ABE, that refers to football.
Here's an interesting blog by an Englishman (from February 2010) about the "ABE" phenomenon in Scotland and the total lack of ill treatment he received at the hands of the Scottish (in years of living there, no-one ever abused him for being English, which, as he says, directly contrasts with the physical and verbal abuse he has been subjected to in England itself). See here (http://mtmg.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/anyone-but-england-english-football-fans-in-scotland/). And I agree with the Scottish about the England football kit often looking somewhat yobbish, especially when worn on holiday and not during a football match for instance.
Added after 2 minutes:
It's not often you hear a Scot saying they are BRITISH.
Go to a Glasgow Rangers football match or an Orange march. They're very noisy about being British there (although the latter in particular is itself very controversial on the West Coast).
Added after 3 minutes:
On one point you are right, being Scottish is what we are, and being part of great Britain cannot be disputed
The way I see my identity is that I am British first, although it's an English kind of British identity. Unionists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will feel similarly (or will reverse the order or may add "EU citizen" in as well) as will many people living in the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Saint Helena, Bermuda and so on.
the scotch are very generous indeed,you only have to look at their national football team:whistle:
The way I see my identity is that I am British first, although it's an English kind of British identity. Unionists in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will feel similarly (or will reverse the order or may add "EU citizen" in as well) as will many people living in the Isle of Man, Channel Islands, Gibraltar, Falkland Islands, Saint Helena, Bermuda and so on.
I have met many English people while working and living in many different countries throughout the world and the only time that I have been told or heard a English person saying that they are British is in a formal situation, among working colleagues (if it needed confirming) they would always refer to them selves as being English.
I have met many English people while working and living in many different countries throughout the world and the only time that I have been told or heard a English person saying that they are British is in a formal situation, among working colleagues (if it needed confirming) they would always refer to them selves as being English.
I must be the exception then. ;)
I must be the exception then. ;)
It would appear to be the case, unless we have worked, traveled and lived in different circles.:)
It would appear to be the case, unless we have worked, traveled and lived in different circles.:)
Us Brits, I'm a Brit, the Brits....blah blah. You here it all the time. From English Brits anyway :)
CaribeCelt
16-01-2012, 18:00
[QUOTE=beerfan;136479]I really doubt it as there are most likely a fewer percentage of Scottish people that want independence for Scotland than there are Irish nationalists/republicans in NI. And NI has been part of the UK for nearly 100 years
Your forgeting that most of the Nationalist community had no vote for nearly 40 years.
Also N.I was a different scenario than Scotland...N.I was a gerrymandered state for the Unionist people until very recently.
Also, the formation of N.I. caused a civil war. The union between England and Scotland was more ameciable (eventually)
N.I was a gerrymandered state for the Unionist people until very recently.
Until... when? I'd have said the mid-1970s when it was all swept away.
The main thing that strikes me about all this is that even after all the treatment the nationalist community of NI suffered between 1922-1972 (the Unionists should have listened to Carson's advice; that they didn't was to their detriment) that NI's Catholics generally seem fairly happy or at least ambivalent about the Union (i.e. there are a greater proportion of unionist Ulster Catholics than unionist English) that many Catholics see their future as being within the UK.
I'm going to start another thread on this later tonight. We're going off topic ( again) which isn't fair to the original poster or indeed the Scottish and English people who want their say on what is a very important matter.
I'm going to start another thread on this later tonight. We're going off topic ( again) which isn't fair to the original poster or indeed the Scottish and English people who want their say on what is a very important matter.
I am English, not an Ulster unionist, or Irish or whatever.
Frankly, the Scottish (and the Northern Irish and the Welsh and, last but not least, us English) should have their say. Frankly, they can have a border poll any time they like. Tomorrow or next week would suit me. If Salmond wants to wait until 2014 or whenever so he can make an absolute tube of himself, let him.
I know you're English Beerfan, its just you, me and a few others are constantly getting sidetracked onto Irish history ( I wouldn't mind hearing other people's opinions on Ireland ). I wasn't getting at you personally.
I know you're English Beerfan, its just you, me and a few others are constantly getting sidetracked onto Irish history ( I wouldn't mind hearing other people's opinions on Ireland ). I wasn't getting at you personally.
Do you frequent P.ie's NI section? Jesus Christ, it's like Groundhog Day on there. If you want to discuss that, try there too. I bet you get bored very quickly with the whole thing. The same morons making the same points and trying to wind each other up. ;)
CaribeCelt
16-01-2012, 19:04
Until... when? I'd have said the mid-1970s when it was all swept away.
The main thing that strikes me about all this is that even after all the treatment the nationalist community of NI suffered between 1922-1972 (the Unionists should have listened to Carson's advice; that they didn't was to their detriment) that NI's Catholics generally seem fairly happy or at least ambivalent about the Union (i.e. there are a greater proportion of unionist Ulster Catholics than unionist English) that many Catholics see their future as being within the UK.
Yeah the mid 70's is about right...Quite recent in historical terms.
I agree that there is a lot of ambivalence in certain areas of the North but on the Unionist "Catholic" issue,in my opinion,there are very few "Catholic's" who vote Unionist and the political mandate of the Nationalist parties prove that.
I agree that there is a lot of ambivalence in certain areas of the North but on the Unionist "Catholic" issue,in my opinion,there are very few "Catholic's" who vote Unionist and the political mandate of the Nationalist parties prove that.
But as I suspect we shall see in Scotland voting Nationalist does not necessarily mean that those Nationalist voters will then vote for independence (or a UI in the Northern Irish case).
As an Englishman who has taken a look at the NI parties I can understand Catholics not wanting to vote for any of the Unionist parties (I don't think I'd want to touch any of their local parties with a bargepole, frankly). A lot of Protestants don't vote Unionist either which is much like the situation in the rest of the UK in fact with many, many people here deciding not to bother voting. I vote for a protest party and if I didn't I simply wouldn't vote.
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 19:24
But as I suspect we shall see in Scotland voting Nationalist does not necessarily mean that those Nationalist voters will then vote for independence (or a UI in the Northern Irish case).
As an Englishman who has taken a look at the NI parties I can understand Catholics not wanting to vote for any of the Unionist parties (I don't think I'd want to touch any of their local parties with a bargepole, frankly). A lot of Protestants don't vote Unionist either which is much like the situation in the rest of the UK in fact with many, many people here deciding not to bother voting. I vote for a protest party and if I didn't I simply wouldn't vote.
I believe the Scots voted for Salmond and the SNP at the Assembly because they were not answerable to the big party's in London. Various Scottish Secretaries in the past have towed the party line, and not had Scotlands best interests at heart. The same people would not vote for the SNP to represent them at Westminster, because they would not have enough clout to make a difference. Its tactical voting, i have done it often myself.
i hope for our kids sake that after independence scotland gives us access to the best thing thats come out the country in recent years...................BALAMORY:devil2:
i hope for our kids sake that after independence scotland gives us access to the best thing thats come out the country in recent years...................BALAMORY:devil2:
Perhaps that's what the high-speed rail link is for? ;)
The same people would not vote for the SNP to represent them at Westminster, because they would not have enough clout to make a difference. Its tactical voting, i have done it often myself.
Voting at Westminster is largely an absolutely pointless exercise for most people in this country anyway - me included. I only vote to see if I can help to put another vote under my preferred party's name. Otherwise, you might as well throw your voting papers in the fire.
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 19:42
i hope for our kids sake that after independence scotland gives us access to the best thing thats come out the country in recent years...................BALAMORY:devil2:
Ive been there...it rained...but there is a pub, so all was not lost
The show itself hasn't actually been made in over six years (the Beeb cancelled it in 2005). ;)
The show itself hasn't actually been made in over six years (the Beeb cancelled it in 2005). ;)thats why your on here so much then;)
thats why your on here so much then;)
No, I'm more into Big Cook, Little Cook. ;)
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 19:57
Ive been there...it rained...but there is a pub, so all was not lost
and of course there is this.......ooooffft
2186
No, I'm more into Big Cook, Little Cook. ;) 2 os to many,lol:raspberry2:
Who is that caroletenerife?
Who is that caroletenerife?
Its one of her many admirers.;)
Its one of her many admirers.;)he wears a skirt:scared:
he wears a skirt:scared:
Women like wearing the trousers... so I'm told. ;)
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 20:09
Who is that caroletenerife?
Gerard Butler, and yes he is indeed a real Scotsman:D
Carol55, dont i just wish...if he was running for First Minister, I know i would be voting for:wow:
I know i would be voting for:wow:
Even if he put huge taxes on haggis and booze? ;)
caroletenerife
16-01-2012, 20:11
he wears a skirt:scared:
It was a fashion show in aid of Breast cancer, hence the pink shirt too. Only a REAL man could get away with an outfit like that and still look good enough to eat. i know its not asmacho as a morris dancing outfit, but it will do me :raspberry2:
Even if he put huge taxes on haggis and booze? ;)
he could put a tax anywhere he liked!!!!!
Re beerfan's comment:- I thought Salmond had already completed the "tube" process. The process he is scared to complete is the truth on his intentions for the referendum and his policies if he manages to bluff his way into a majority vote in favour of independence. Hopefully very few still believe his lies and have seen through all his smoke screens. The inhabitants of the four Countries comprising the United Kingdom should be given the opportunity to have their say. I dread what might happen because of Salmond's stupidity, the others might just want rid of us. Hopefully that won't be the case as that wouldn't be wise either.
Re beerfan's comment:- I thought Salmond had already completed the "tube" process.
Correct; he probably has. I haven't been keeping up with the news at all. Remember, I don't live in Scotland so I don't have to see his visage every time I turn on the tellybox. You poor *******s.
The process he is scared to complete is the truth on his intentions for the referendum and his policies if he manages to bluff his way into a majority vote in favour of independence.
Oh, yes, those small matters. It should be a walk in a park for a man with as big an ego as his.
I've never liked him. Alright, when I was 15 I might have done. But not now.
Hopefully very few still believe his lies and have seen through all his smoke screens.
No chance of a Salmond Youth coming to rescue this grinning lunatic then?
The inhabitants of the four Countries comprising the United Kingdom should be given the opportunity to have their say.
That can't happen because it would set a precedent for Ulster and that can't happen because of the GFA. Sorry.
I dread what might happen because of Salmond's stupidity, the others might just want rid of us.
A lot of 'us' down here (not me personally) have wanted rid of you for some time. I wouldn't take any notice, not that you seem to anyway. ;)
Hopefully that won't be the case as that wouldn't be wise either.
True.
The full significance of North Sea oil was not immediately apparent, and it still remains in large measure disguised from the Scottish public by the DTI...
An extract from the Top Secret Mc Crone Report that Westminster does not want you to read.
Yes the £250 billion pounds of Scottish oil revenue that has passed the Scottish people by, equates to us each forfeiting £1,628 per annum for the last 30 years totaling £48,000 and if we stay in the Union the Scot's could forfeit another £1.2 trillion.
Even if you live in Scotland and have Unionist view's you should take the Unionist challenge and read this Conservative commissioned Mc Crone's Report into Scotland's economy, which was classified top secret for 30 years .....
This report makes very interesting reading.
http://www.taxpayerscotland.com/news/StateofScotland_Debt_Jan2012.pdf
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 18:44
The full significance of North Sea oil was not immediately apparent, and it still remains in large measure disguised from the Scottish public by the DTI...
An extract from the Top Secret Mc Crone Report that Westminster does not want you to read.
Yes the £250 billion pounds of Scottish oil revenue that has passed the Scottish people by, equates to us each forfeiting £1,628 per annum for the last 30 years totaling £48,000 and if we stay in the Union the Scot's could forfeit another £1.2 trillion.
Even if you live in Scotland and have Unionist view's you should take the Unionist challenge and read this Conservative commissioned Mc Crone's Report into Scotland's economy, which was classified top secret for 30 years .....
I read that report when the SNP first disclosed it. It don't suppose it came as a surprise to many Scots that the two London based parties were in cahoots to stop it being made general knowledge. The referendum then was unfairly managed with rules favouring the Unionists, I think thats why Cameron got the universal two fingered salute when he tried to interfere this time. I am not a Unionist, couldn't care less if we are attached(other then physically) to England. Its Salmonds economics and his never ending assurance that everything is going to be just dandy that annoys me...people dont trust him enough.
If he was more honest and spoke in terms of the problems that would come up and that we would all need to make sacrifices, then people might decide to take a chance for the sake of being free. But he only tells half the story...do you honestly think the UK government is just going to wave the oil revenue and more importantly the possibility of new large fields goodbye. Who knows what Ed, Dave and (mr personality) Nick are cooking up, however, Labour and Libs are going to need to be very careful how far they crawl up Camerons backside.....they still need votes in Scotland, and voters are not as trusting of politicians as they used to be..Liberals got wiped out last time because they crawled in bed with the Tories
Added after 9 minutes:
This report makes very interesting reading.
http://www.taxpayerscotland.com/news/StateofScotland_Debt_Jan2012.pdf
Haha, trust no one.. there is going to be ALOT of lies flying about over the next 18 months, from both sides, that was probably typed up by Mrs Cameron last night
in the sound of a frail sheep" oh but the oil"
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 20:40
in the sound of a frail sheep" oh but the oil"
It is the subject Westminster have been mosted 'sheepish' about. Nae bl**dy wonder:D
the oil pays for the road from nowhere to nowhere with a big bridge in the middle for not many people to use,or the train to where not many people live;)
It is the subject Westminster have been mosted 'sheepish' about.
The oil isn't "Scotland's" - it's in the North Sea. Doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with Scotland.
with independence will come the russians,with no defences apart from a quick lift of the skirt the russians will take the oil:crylaughing:
The Russians will need to first break down the wall made from deep fried mars bars and traverse the ravine filled with IRN BRU and floating deep fried pizzas.
The Russians will need to first break down the wall made from deep fried mars bars and traverse the ravine filled with IRN BRU and floating deep fried pizzas.now your just tryin to wind the scotch up simon:lol:
now your just tryin to wind the scotch up simon:lol:To be fair, it don't take a lot :)
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 21:40
The oil isn't "Scotland's" - it's in the North Sea. Doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with Scotland.
Not according to the report the Uk government kept top secret for 30 years :fpull:. If you cant be bothered to read it all, try the conclusion. We would have had the strongest currency in Eurpope, apart from Norway. became a tax haven for the rich..and in the words of the report ' be in chronic surplus to an embarrassing degree'. Now how could we possibly have achieved that if the oil was not ours. :D
Added after 2 minutes:
now your just tryin to wind the scotch up simon:lol:
Simons patter is *****e, he would need to up the ante quite a lot before he could wind someone up. :D
Now how could we possibly have achieved that if the oil was not ours. :D
And as someone else said a few life sapping pages back .... if my Aunty had a pair of danglers, she would be my Uncle :bootyshake:
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 22:06
And as someone else said a few life sapping pages back .... if my Aunty had a pair of danglers, she would be my Uncle :bootyshake:
haha..See what I mean ...nae patter, he just said it himself SOMEONE else said:bootyshake:
Heres another wee gem quote 'Britain is counting so heavily on North sea oil to redress its balance of payments that it is easy to imagine England in dire straits without it' ...........:crylaughing: scroungers
haha..See what I mean ...nae patter, he just said it himself SOMEONE else said:bootyshake:
Heres another wee gem quote 'Britain is counting so heavily on North sea oil to redress its balance of payments that it is easy to imagine England in dire straits without it' ...........:crylaughing: scroungersstraight from balamory?
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 22:14
straight from balamory?
Probably, it was commissioned by Westminster and passed on to the opposition...then labelled top secret...but the truth comes out in the end
haha..See what I mean ...nae patter, he just said it himself SOMEONE else said:bootyshake:
Heres another wee gem quote 'Britain is counting so heavily on North sea oil to redress its balance of payments that it is easy to imagine England in dire straits without it' ...........:crylaughing: scroungersif this is what the scotch believe,youd think theyd want independence now,why wait till 2014 n lose even more wealth,dafties:crylaughing:
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 22:42
if this is what the scotch believe,youd think theyd want independence now,why wait till 2014 n lose even more wealth,dafties:crylaughing:
Keep up Tony.....that was in the 1970's before the Uk government had squandered our wealth. Hence why most Scots on here don't want Independance, why get a divorce from a bullying partner who has sold all your jewellery. Better to stay legally seperated, and keep getting monthly payments until some of its worth is repaid. :D
Keep up Tony.....that was in the 1970's before the Uk government had squandered our wealth. Hence why most Scots on here don't want Independance, why get a divorce from a bullying partner who has sold all your jewellery. Better to stay legally seperated, and keep getting monthly payments until some of its worth is repaid. :Doch aye,ya ken far ya piece is butterd
why get a divorce from a bullying partner who has sold all your jewellery. :D
You're right, that Gordon Brown sold us right down the river. Hocked all our gold for the price of wee dram.
You're right, that Gordon Brown sold us right down the river. Hocked all our gold for the price of wee dram.
As that nice Nigel Farrago reminded him in the European Parliament. Remember?
nice wee article here hen http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9018567/Independent-Scotland-would-have-270bn-debt-pile.html
Added after 4 minutes:
theres more http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/9008246/An-independent-Scotland-would-struggle-for-AAA-rating.html
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 23:11
och aye,ya ken far ya piece is butterd
good attempt i think i could decifer it.:c2: it should read 'ye ken fit side yer piece is buttered oan' who wants bread and butter, with our resources it should be caviar all the way...or even unlimited bucky and deep fried mars bars and pizza...whatever floats yer boat. But we need to make the best of a bad job...and utterly buttery is needs to be:)
You're right, that Gordon Brown sold us right down the river. Hocked all our gold for the price of wee dram.
He was the British Prime minister...nothing to do with the Scottish Parliament or the independance movement
Added after 3 minutes:
Whos he...oh is he that racist guy from UKIP
Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads in the world. Around 13 per cent of the population has red hair, with 40 per cent carrying the recessive gene.:crylaughing:
Whos he...oh is he that racist guy from UKIP
I'm not sure 'racist' is at all accurate with Farage. Perhaps you're thinking of Griffin.
caroletenerife
17-01-2012, 23:29
I'm not sure 'racist' is at all accurate with Farage. Perhaps you're thinking of Griffin.
Trying to look respectable..but just another tenticle off the same octopus. Just not as repulsive
Trying to look respectable..but just another tenticle off the same octopus. Just not as repulsive
What is racist about, well, anything Farage has said? Is disagreement with the idea of EU membership seen a racist pursuit now or something?
What is racist about, well, anything Farage has said? Is disagreement with the idea of EU membership seen a racist pursuit now or something?
Ignorance is bliss in some eyes :) Let them eat cake.
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 00:08
What is racist about, well, anything Farage has said? Is disagreement with the idea of EU membership seen a racist pursuit now or something?
Mabey I'm wrong and have the wrong UKIP party
'For any cash-strapped Moslems reading this...
I have a potential money-spinner for you. On the quiet, with no public announcement whatsoever, the Labour government in December 2007 formally recognised multiple wives, as long as the ceremony took place in a country where polygamy is legal... Islamic law allows a man up to four wives (‘‘harem’’) and according to new guidelines from the Department of Work and Pensions: 'Where there is a valid polygamous marriage the claimant and one spouse will be paid the couple rate... The amount payable for each additional spouse is presently £33.65''... Income support for the 'harem' may be paid into the husband's bank account. He may also be in line for extra housing benefit and council tax benefit, reflecting the larger property needed for his family... Moslem readers may also be interested to know that there is a possible loophole where the man can divorce his wife under British law, continue living with her as his spouse under Islamic law, and then marry a new wife here in Britain, with everybody still claiming benefit. Please remember that bigamy is supposed to be a criminal offence in this country...Chris Grayling, Tory shadow minister, called this ''completely unjustifiable'', adding: ''this sets a precedent that will lead to more demands for the culture of other countries to be reflected in UK law.'' ... Mr. Grayling is right. But when a government embraces the lunacy of multiculturalism, the above is inevitable. Why are we so surprised?
David Challice- UK Independence party
Please let me know where being anti-multicultural is racist again? By that measure, even David Cameron is a racist. You're wilfully confusing anti-multiculturalism - which has been widely discredited - with anti-multiracialism. Pointing out that something is indeed happening isn't racist, it's stating the truth.
UKIP are a civic nationalist party with a long history of having black and Asian members - including Muslims (one of the main UKIP candidates in East Lancashire, an area where there has been racial tensions in the past is a Muslim with a very integrationist outlook) standing for them.
If you want to attack UKIP, you'd be better off looking at some of the other members of the EFD as some of the parties in that group make me quite uneasy as they certainly are racist - the Slovak National Party being one of them. But, again, a lot of the European Parliament groupings have parties with rather batty ideas and it's not as easy as you'd think trying to keep a group running with the amount of MEPs sympathetic to Euroscepticism without letting in genuine nasties.
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 00:34
Please let me know where being anti-multicultural is racist again? By that measure, even David Cameron is a racist. You're wilfully confusing anti-multiculturalism - which has been widely discredited - with anti-multiracialism. Pointing out that something is indeed happening isn't racist, it's stating the truth.
UKIP are a civic nationalist party with a long history of having black and Asian members - including Muslims (one of the main UKIP candidates in East Lancashire, an area where there has been racial tensions in the past is a Muslim with a very integrationist outlook) standing for them.
I dont know if David Cameron is a racist, he once did describe UKIP as 'Fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists' so mabey we are both wrong. the language in that article speaks for itself as far as i'm concerned. The BNP fielded a Greek Armenian at an election to prove they are not racist
I dont know if David Cameron is a racist, he once did describe UKIP as 'Fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists' so mabey we are both wrong.
Only because I suspect that he was worried about the effect on their vote. I doubt I shall ever vote Conservative again - and I come from a very solidly Conservative-voting family. If UKIP weren't around I wouldn't vote. I would never vote BNP. Ever.
the language in that article speaks for itself as far as i'm concerned.
Do you believe that it is objectionable that Muslims may effectively go against the spirit of the law of our land?
The BNP fielded a Greek Armenian at an election to prove they are not racist
I bet they consider him 'white' though.
Best thing you can do is to look at the BNP's immigration policy - i.e. "'voluntary' repatriation of anyone who is not white European" and UKIP's, which genuinely wants to integrate present immigrants and bring our mass immigration policy under control. Massive difference. The BNP used to have a Sikh columnist in one of their rags too. They caught a lot of flak off their more openly racist chums for that little stunt. I've heard black people being involved with them too - which is more than a bit deranged as it's like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Basically, I can't think of a whole lot that UKIP and the BNP agree on apart from leaving the EU.
Added after 3 minutes:
I dont know if David Cameron is a racist
Both David Cameron and Angela Merkel have denounced multiculturalism.
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 00:51
Please let me know where being anti-multicultural is racist again? By that measure, even David Cameron is a racist. You're wilfully confusing anti-multiculturalism - which has been widely discredited - with anti-multiracialism. Pointing out that something is indeed happening isn't racist, it's stating the truth.
UKIP are a civic nationalist party with a long history of having black and Asian members - including Muslims (one of the main UKIP candidates in East Lancashire, an area where there has been racial tensions in the past is a Muslim with a very integrationist outlook) standing for them.
If you want to attack UKIP, you'd be better off looking at some of the other members of the EFD as some of the parties in that group make me quite uneasy as they certainly are racist - the Slovak National Party being one of them. But, again, a lot of the European Parliament groupings have parties with rather batty ideas and it's not as easy as you'd think trying to keep a group running with the amount of MEPs sympathetic to Euroscepticism without letting in genuine nasties.
Why are they dealing with these people anyway? If it wasnt for differents 'culture' coming to UK 'romans' for instance it there would be no roads :).
Why are they dealing with these people anyway?
UKIP (which co-chair the group along with the Northern League, an Italian regionalist political party that are all over the place politically) get a lot more privileges than if they just sit with the non-attached 'group' where the really obnoxious and racist parties like the BNP, the FPÖ, the Front National, the National Union Attack and the Greater Romania Party reside as they can't find anyone that will take them.
If it wasnt for differents 'culture' coming to UK 'romans' for instance it there would be no roads :).
I don't think that's the issue - they just don't really like the idea of what we're seeing now, which is ghettoisation and segregation. In Preston, for example, you have the South Asian areas and the white areas. In some parts of England it's a bit like being in Northern Ireland almost. Very segregated. It's the policy of telling people that they can keep their own cultures - no matter how backward they are to us! - and the fact that they never really have to integrate that really annoys them. But this is a Europe-wide phenomenon and there are parties across Europe that are opposed to this like the DF, PVV (Wilders is way too extreme for me though), SVP, PS and so on.
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 00:57
Only because I suspect that he was worried about the effect on their vote. I doubt I shall ever vote Conservative again - and I come from a very solidly Conservative-voting family. If UKIP weren't around I wouldn't vote. I would never vote BNP. Ever.
Do you believe that it is objectionable that Muslims may effectively go against the spirit of the law of our land?
I bet they consider him 'white' though.
Best thing you can do is to look at the BNP's immigration policy - i.e. "'voluntary' repatriation of anyone who is not white European" and UKIP's, which genuinely wants to integrate present immigrants and bring our mass immigration policy under control. Massive difference. The BNP used to have a Sikh columnist in one of their rags too. They caught a lot of flak off their more openly racist chums for that little stunt. I've heard black people being involved with them too - which is more than a bit deranged as it's like turkeys voting for Christmas.
Basically, I can't think of a whole lot that UKIP and the BNP agree on apart from leaving the EU.
Added after 3 minutes:
Both David Cameron and Angela Merkel have denounced multiculturalism.
If the radical muslims or anyone else goes against the spirit of the law, then its up to the 'law' to deal with it.
I have no desire to look any closer to the BNP than i have to, i wouldnt spit on them if they were on fire,
Couldn't care what Dave denounces either :)
If the radical muslims or anyone else goes against the spirit of the law, then its up to the 'law' to deal with it.
I can foresee a point if mass immigration continues where the law isn't able to deal effectively with them though. Our political class is largely to blame for this, not the Muslims.
I have no desire to look any closer to the BNP than i have to, i wouldnt spit on them if they were on fire
Likewise. :)
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 01:06
UKIP (which co-chair the group along with the Northern League, an Italian regionalist political party that are all over the place politically) get a lot more privileges than if they just sit with the non-attached 'group' where the really obnoxious and racist parties like the BNP, the FPÖ, the Front National, the National Union Attack and the Greater Romania Party reside as they can't find anyone else that will take them.
I don't think that's the issue - they just don't really like the idea of what we're seeing now, which is ghettoisation and segregation. In Preston, for example, you have the South Asian areas and the white areas. In some parts of England it's a bit like being in Northern Ireland almost. Very segregated. It's the policy of telling people that they can keep their own cultures - no matter how backward they are to us! - and the fact that they never really have to integrate that really annoys them. But this is a Europe-wide phenomenon and there are parties across Europe that are opposed to this like the DF, PVV (Wilders is way too extreme for me though), SVP, PS and so on.
The arguements that Uk is losing its identity is nothing new. in the 1900's it was claimed British imperialism was being manipulted and controlled by Jews. I dont see us being overrun by Jewish MP's. Building a moat and pulling up the drawbridge isnt the answer...Im off out with the dog, have a good night
in the 1900's it was claimed British imperialism was being manipulted and controlled by Jews.
Indeed. The old anti-Semitic "the Joos are taking over the world" is nothing new. I've spoken with Jews and others about this and I've come to the conclusion that anti-Semites are mainly jealous - aside from Israel, the Jews tend to keep to themselves and seem content being like that. I've wanted to go to Israel ever since because I'm like that. So many people seem to dislike Israel in Britain so I want to go. I was an extremely odd child.
I dont see us being overrun by Jewish MP's.
If we were, we wouldn't be in this financial mess!
(Ba-doom tish!) ;)
Building a moat and pulling up the drawbridge isnt the answer...
You won't have any disagreement with me whatsoever on that. I just don't like the idea that the door marked "UK" is open to nearly everyone who cares to knock.
I am much more often relaxed when I'm outside my own country. I'm a nationalist without any serious attachment to his people. It's a bizarre concept, don't you think? The attachment is there but it's abstract rather than real. I'd rather be travelling Europe than in the UK, frankly, though I'd rather that waited until it got warmer. Not everything is so black and white. I am almost certain that I would absolutely hate the south of Tenerife because it is so touristy, for example. I like being left alone. Again, odd child. ;)
Im off out with the dog, have a good night
And you too, caroletenerife. Look after yourself - if you live on the island, you're a lucky soul. ;)
And here endeth the debate on Scottish Independence and welcome to the party political debate on behalf of the UKIP!
If ever a thread has been hijacked, well this is one.:(
If ever a thread has been hijacked, well this is one.:(
Sorry - we've discussed a variety of subjects on here as well as Scottish independence - Irish history being one of the other major topics in the thread.
I do agree that this thread has been hijacked and I think we should return it to its original topic - independence of Scotland from the English. ;)
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 10:41
sorry Carol, was the only jock on defending us against the rabble sassanachs ;) back to business. Who would get the Queen, given her heritage? Her mother was from Scottish Nobility and the other half of the family from the Stuart Kings, with a few random European royals along the way.
sorry Carol, was the only jock on defending us against the rabble sassanachs ;) back to business. Who would get the Queen, given her heritage? Her mother was from Scottish Nobility and the other half of the family from the Stuart Kings, with a few random European royals along the way.the queen is on our pound,youve no currency so you can have herman van rumpoy n the euro:crylaughing:
Sundowner
18-01-2012, 12:07
I have a tip for Alex Salmond...........if he really wants to win the vote on Scottish independance........
let the English have a vote
Angusjim
18-01-2012, 14:04
I have a tip for Alex Salmond...........if he really wants to win the vote on Scottish independance........
let the English have a vote
Is that the whole of England or the part that thinks they already rule and subsidise everyone in the UK and that feel any one North of Watford Gap is a drain on their recources
http://www.lordtobyharris.org.uk/independence-for-london/
There are always idiots who think that the whole of England wants Scotland to leave Great Britain and all of Scotland wants the same. We are a United Kingdom. I used to encounter Morons in Pto de la Cruz, on holiday, who would be in the bars telling everyone within earshot "I'm English not F'*** British". Next day they'd be wandering around the streets wearing the bruises inflicted by some other idiot who had, according to them, "Caught them unawares". Maybe switching on the brain before the mouth would have been sensible!!! As Sundowner says "Anyone North of Watford Gap is a burden on the economy of Little England", according to a minor part of that Country. What they shoudn't forget is that the UK is a Nation to be proud of, not a Country, then perhaps we can all move forward and thrive as we have done for centuries.
British and Proud Of It despite all its faults. We must all stand together and stuff Mr Salmond !!!
There are always idiots who think that the whole of England wants Scotland to leave Great Britain and all of Scotland wants the same. We are a United Kingdom. I used to encounter Morons in Pto de la Cruz, on holiday, who would be in the bars telling everyone within earshot "I'm English not F'*** British". Next day they'd be wandering around the streets wearing the bruises inflicted by some other idiot who had, according to them, "Caught them unawares". Maybe switching on the brain before the mouth would have been sensible!!! As Sundowner says "Anyone North of Watford Gap is a burden on the economy of Little England", according to a minor part of that Country. What they shoudn't forget is that the UK is a Nation to be proud of, not a Country, then perhaps we can all move forward and thrive as we have done for centuries.
British and Proud Of It despite all its faults. We must all stand together and stuff Mr Salmond !!!if the english get involved in scotland its more fuel to the fire,its upto the scots to stop being appethetic,stop the pathetic protest votes that gave him the power in the first place,stand up,stand together or suffer the consequences of your apathy im afraid
Haha, trust no one.. there is going to be ALOT of lies flying about over the next 18 months, from both sides, that was probably typed up by Mrs Cameron last night
TaxpayerScotland are an totally independent organisation.
Extracted from the report
TaxpayerScotland is an independent grassroots campaign working on behalf of taxpayers in Scotland. We believe in limited government and lower taxes. We think it is observably true that the state wastes a lot of our tax money and also spends much of it inefficiently. We are an independent member of The Taxpayer’s Alliance. Our work involves pointing out these waste and inefficiences while advocating different
approaches that would offer better value for taxpayers. We are convinced that the evidence from the past sixty years shows that our public services could be improved, economic growth enhanced, and job prospects expanded with less state intervention and lower taxes.
We are not aligned with any political party and will not become so. We believe that the incentives that face politicians to “do something” are too often detrimental to the taxpayer interest – especially where they act with supposed discretion but without real knowledge. We seek to limit the ambitions of politicians, to reduce their role in our lives, and to limit their activities by reducing their ability to tax us highly.
Sundowner
18-01-2012, 15:17
[QUOTE=Fender1;137421]There are always idiots who think that the whole of England wants Scotland to leave Great Britain and all of Scotland wants the same. We are a United Kingdom. I used to encounter Morons in Pto de la Cruz, on holiday, who would be in the bars telling everyone within earshot "I'm English not F'*** British". Next day they'd be wandering around the streets wearing the bruises inflicted by some other idiot who had, according to them, "Caught them unawares". Maybe switching on the brain before the mouth would have been sensible!!! As Sundowner says "Anyone North of Watford Gap is a burden on the economy of Little England", according to a minor part of that Country. What they shoudn't forget is that the UK is a Nation to be proud of, not a Country, then perhaps we can all move forward and thrive as we have done for centuries.
Please get your facts right if you decide to have a go at someone!!! You can look a right idiot when the target of your bile points out that the quote you attribute to him was not his:fpull:
What I said was said in fun! And if you had followed the thread more closely, you would have seen that I am already on record as saying that I wanted Scotland to remain part of the U.K.
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 18:26
sundowner do you mean the English muscling in on someones issues...now theres a first:D
Added after 4 minutes:
the queen is on our pound,youve no currency so you can have herman van rumpoy n the euro:crylaughing:
or the pound could have Nicholas Sarkozy on it, he's bound to have at least as much English blood running through his veins as Wee Liz, or is a legitimate blood line something else you dont mind pinching:fpull:
TaxpayerScotland are an totally independent organisation.
Extracted from the report
TaxpayerScotland is an independent grassroots campaign working on behalf of taxpayers in Scotland. We believe in limited government and lower taxes. We think it is observably true that the state wastes a lot of our tax money and also spends much of it inefficiently. We are an independent member of The Taxpayer’s Alliance. Our work involves pointing out these waste and inefficiences while advocating different
approaches that would offer better value for taxpayers. We are convinced that the evidence from the past sixty years shows that our public services could be improved, economic growth enhanced, and job prospects expanded with less state intervention and lower taxes.
We are not aligned with any political party and will not become so. We believe that the incentives that face politicians to “do something” are too often detrimental to the taxpayer interest – especially where they act with supposed discretion but without real knowledge. We seek to limit the ambitions of politicians, to reduce their role in our lives, and to limit their activities by reducing their ability to tax us highly.
Trust no one;)
sundowner do you mean the English muscling in on someones issues...now theres a first:D
If you're referring to the British Empire I rather like the way you try to deflect the fact that Scotland (as part of the UK) had a big role to play in the Empire, with its administrators and expertise.
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 18:46
If you're referring to the British Empire I rather like the way you try to deflect the fact that Scotland (as part of the UK) had a big role to play in the Empire, with its administrators and expertise.
no I wasnt actually
:crylaughing:ex-pats scots to be re-branded as english because the snp dont want or value you?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480:crylaughing:
:crylaughing:ex-pats scots to be re-branded as english because the snp dont want or value you?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480:crylaughing:
Come on Tony, you know they won't like that :)
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 20:51
:crylaughing:ex-pats scots to be re-branded as english because the snp dont want or value you?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480:crylaughing:
Cant see where it says they would be re branded English, now that would be a fate worse than death. Im registered to vote so hey ho!! I see that the Lords are telling old Dave to butt out and stop being so arrogant, haha, old English habits die hard. Come to think of it, you could have Davey on your notes, hes 'royalty' even if he is from the illegitimate side of the family. :wow:
Cant see where it says they would be re branded English, now that would be a fate worse than death. Im registered to vote so hey ho!! I see that the Lords are telling old Dave to butt out and stop being so arrogant, haha, old English habits die hard. Come to think of it, you could have Davey on your notes, hes 'royalty' even if he is from the illegitimate side of the family. :wow:we dont give a fylin whos on the notes as long as its called sterling,thats a place in scotchland i do believe? it will come a time when we get our pensions,mine in sterling,yours in euros/scotches whatever so in the voice of harry enfield"ill be considerably richer than yow":crylaughing:
Added after 11 minutes:
we dont give a fylin whos on the notes as long as its called sterling,thats a place in scotchland i do believe? it will come a time when we get our pensions,mine in sterling,yours in euros/scotches whatever so in the voice of harry enfield"ill be considerably richer than yow":crylaughing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Kum8OUTuk
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 21:26
we dont give a fylin whos on the notes as long as its called sterling,thats a place in scotchland i do believe? it will come a time when we get our pensions,mine in sterling,yours in euros/scotches whatever so in the voice of harry enfield"ill be considerably richer than yow":crylaughing:
Well not really, all that free health care etc, etc, etc will leave me with loads of disposable income, why do you think we are hanging about:fpull:
Well not really, all that free health care etc, etc, etc will leave me with loads of disposable income, why do you think we are hanging about:fpull:free:dontknow:ya oil pays for that ya beauty, 2 more years of oil will about pay off your royal bankin debts:crylaughing:royal indeedy
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 21:37
free:dontknow:ya oil pays for that ya beauty, 2 more years of oil will about pay off your royal bankin debts:crylaughing:royal indeedy
That indeed is the beauty of it...its no oor problem, and in the personal smiley of Tonypub:crylaughing::crylaughing::crylaughing:
That indeed is the beauty of it...its no oor problem, and in the personal smiley of Tonypub:crylaughing::crylaughing::crylaughing:you may have the us dollar as your currency as your close to them in many ways http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564208/Scotland-is-second-in-the-world-for-obesity.html :crylaughing:
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 22:12
you may have the us dollar as your currency as your close to them in many ways http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1564208/Scotland-is-second-in-the-world-for-obesity.html :crylaughing:
Oh aye, plenty of fat people in Scotland, and yet strangely enough, there seems to be an abundance of slightly overweight folk on 'The biggest loser' who are mainly English. As for being close to Americans, they could come live next door....we could always have worse neighbours.....oh wait a minute we already do:raspberry2:
Oh aye, plenty of fat people in Scotland, and yet strangely enough, there seems to be an abundance of slightly overweight folk on 'The biggest loser' who are mainly English. As for being close to Americans, they could come live next door....we could always have worse neighbours.....oh wait a minute we already do:raspberry2:dinna worry hen,we will be re-planning hadrians wall to make it triple strenth to stop yas wreckin it again.cant wait to see your border control men in there wee skirts:crylaughing:
If Scotland does go independent, will all Scottish ex-pats need to get a Scottish passport, even if they already have a valid UK one ??
If it does happen and Scotland doesn't join the EU right away, will there need to be Border and Passport Controls put in place ??
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 22:41
dinna worry hen,we will be re-planning hadrians wall to make it triple strenth to stop yas wreckin it again.cant wait to see your border control men in there wee skirts:crylaughing:
You didnt build Hadrians wall, that was the romans when they invaded your little hamlet and taught you everything you know, they couldn't beat us though, the site of our 'men in skirts' coming to rip their heads off scared the s*** out of them and they ran away to dominate a much more docile, wimpy race :D
well its been great again,ty all.but being a englishman i have to go to work for my pennies,be a diffrent story if i lived over the border but hey ho its off to work i go:p......to be resumed:crylaughing:
well its been great again,ty all.but being a englishman i have to go to work for my pennies,be a diffrent story if i lived over the border but hey ho its off to work i go:p......to be resumed:crylaughing:aww,the romans had the second biggest empire in the world,england had the biggest.see ya 2morra
caroletenerife
18-01-2012, 22:48
If Scotland does go independent, will all Scottish ex-pats need to get a Scottish passport, even if they already have a valid UK one ??
If it does happen and Scotland doesn't join the EU right away, will there need to be Border and Passport Controls put in place ??
I doubt if any of that will need yo be put in place. Especially now its being broadcast that the English are 'telling' us what to do. When has that resulted in anything other than the Scots being defiant, just to annoy them.
Added after 8 minutes:
well its been great again,ty all.but being a englishman i have to go to work for my pennies,be a diffrent story if i lived over the border but hey ho its off to work i go:p......to be resumed:crylaughing:
aww,the romans had the second biggest empire in the world,england had the biggest.see ya 2morra
Ohh tony :liar:, your forgetting that was the 'British 'empire,us Scots, Welsh and Irish and yes admittidly the English, who we let tag along and look after the horses and clean the toilets , night night. Just as well your not in the Uk, its cold there. just as well they have all that lovely Scottish oil to keep them cosy in their beds:snore:
Oh aye, plenty of fat people in Scotland, and yet strangely enough, there seems to be an abundance of slightly overweight folk on 'The biggest loser' who are mainly English.
They probably picked them up from Wigan.
I doubt if any of that will need yo be put in place. Especially now its being broadcast that the English are 'telling' us what to do. When has that resulted in anything other than the Scots being defiant, just to annoy them.
I would actually sort of like the Scots to vote for independence (even as a dyed-in-the-wool Unionist) just so we can have a huge banner at the border saying "We told you so, Jimmy!"
caroletenerife
19-01-2012, 11:01
They probably picked them up from Wigan.
hmmm so pregudice against the northern English aswell. your going to end up billy no mates
I would actually sort of like the Scots to vote for independence (even as a dyed-in-the-wool Unionist) just so we can have a huge banner at the border saying "We told you so, Jimmy!"
Theres nae room for it, theres been a big notice there for the attention of the English for 30 years:lol:
hmmm so pregudice against the northern English aswell. your going to end up billy no mates
What, I'm prejudiced against my own kind? I am Northern English born and bred and don't live far from Wigan. :)
must be dole day north o the border,the scotch are very quiet:raspberry2:
Sundowner
19-01-2012, 22:48
must be dole day north o the border,the scotch are very quiet:raspberry2:
Nah, it's Haggis day.................if you had just eaten the heart,liver and lungs of a sheep.........you would also be quiet:whistle:
caroletenerife
19-01-2012, 23:52
must be dole day north o the border,the scotch are very quiet:raspberry2:
sorry if you have felt neglected, I wish i had time to sign on the dole. But its been a hectic day with more important things to deal with and I dont really have the time just now to pander to an attention seeking narcissist:lol: im sure you can think of something to say in order to laugh at your own joke in my absence. See you soon:fpull:
Nah, it's Haggis day.................if you had just eaten the heart,liver and lungs of a sheep.........you would also be quiet:whistle:
Nah, thats next wednesday :D
:laugh:Sorry Folks, but this thread has gone a little haywire :sorry: It's been closed for a while till we get down to sorting on-topic from off-topic posts :scared: We are gonna move all off-topics to the Dungeon :hello: Be warned, offenders will be sentenced to spending days eating,drinking,sunbathing and any other suitable punishments we can find :whistle: normal service will be resumed when the old man (Slodge) has recovered from tireditis or whatever he calls it ( personally i think he has spent too long in the sun and need some snow and cold weather to bring him round :whistle:)
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