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lord_cheeseman
29-05-2011, 19:55
On a previous forum it became apparent that the dream of Scotland becoming an independant state was stronger South of the border. When can we look forward to that dream becoming a reality?

dokgolf
24-06-2011, 14:17
The SNP as the majority party in the Scottish parliament have promised a referendum on independence within the lifetime of this government. Just wondering what peoples' thoughts are on the above. Is it a good thing and what way do you think it will go?

Added after 22 minutes:

didn't realise that a thread was started on this already. Strangely, it doesn't seem to concern many???????

Harmonicaman
24-06-2011, 18:47
The SNP as the majority party in the Scottish parliament have promised a referendum on independence within the lifetime of this government. Just wondering what peoples' thoughts are on the above. Is it a good thing and what way do you think it will go?

Added after 22 minutes:

didn't realise that a thread was started on this already. Strangely, it doesn't seem to concern many???????

I remember the provocative nature of the old thread...once bitten, twice etc etc.

dokgolf
24-06-2011, 21:31
I remember the provocative nature of the old thread...once bitten, twice etc etc.

Really? I suppose there isn't any middle ground on such a subject.

caroletenerife
24-06-2011, 21:45
There is middle ground, thats were the majority of scots are. Lord cheeseman stated 'the dream of independence', the English need to realise its the SNP's dream, not the majority. Most are happy to be in UK, but have a strong national identity. They voted SNP in the Scottish elections because they will represent the interests of Scotland in political form, they are not answerable to the bigger parties. So middle ground seems to be, purely Scottish matters vote SNP, for National and International matters at West Minster, i believe Labour will always get the majority vote in Scotland.

dokgolf
24-06-2011, 21:54
Do you know if any poll has been carried out to gauge people's opinions in Scotland?

caroletenerife
24-06-2011, 22:07
very likely, but no time just now, dog needs a pee:eek::eek: Traditionally SNP were only relevant in the North East of Scotland, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee etc voted Labour. Labour lost support last time...for obvious reasons (eeegits). They might go back to them...it all depends how Alex & co do this time round, to be fair to them, they have done not bad so far..will look it up when i get back

Harmonicaman
24-06-2011, 22:10
Do you know if any poll has been carried out to gauge people's opinions in Scotland?
Don't really know how indicative this is.
(http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2011/05/poll-finds-substantial-support-for-scottish-independence/#axzz1QEK70lNh)

caroletenerife
24-06-2011, 23:14
Don't really know how indicative this is.
(http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2011/05/poll-finds-substantial-support-for-scottish-independence/#axzz1QEK70lNh)

Given that poll was a week or so after the election, i would say it was accurate. Whether the Scottish would actually vote for independance would depend on the economic climate and how well the various parties argued their corner. The SNP know that their current success is largely thanks to the total failure of the others to give the people what they want i.e promise of free tuition fees etc, so its a case of wait and see if the other parties can pull themselves together and how they perform, and of course what they will promise the Scots for their vote.

lord_cheeseman
25-06-2011, 00:09
I think we established on the forum's previous incarnation that if a disolution of the UK was open to the entire UK to vote on; england would be going solo before you can say "see you jimmy" I wonder if a mod could add the poll once again.

AJP
25-06-2011, 00:23
I think we established on the forum's previous incarnation that if a disolution of the UK was open to the entire UK to vote on; england would be going solo before you can say "see you jimmy" I wonder if a mod could add the poll once again.

That may be so, but please don,t use some rather low forum numbers to use either way.And dont try to trivialise it by throwing in some Cough, Cough, Tribal "Russ abbott suppossed fuuny quote

caroletenerife
25-06-2011, 01:33
I think we established on the forum's previous incarnation that if a disolution of the UK was open to the entire UK to vote on; england would be going solo before you can say "see you jimmy" I wonder if a mod could add the poll once again.

Personally i have never said 'see you Jimmy'. The SNP are not calling for the disolution of the UK, only to have self determination. If the English people want to be independant, then it is for the English people to decide. Scots, Irish and the Welsh would have no right to a vote. When the Good Friday agreement was signed in Ireland, i'm pretty sure that no one in Manchester or Edinburgh had a vote. Same applies to Scotland, if or when they vote on the subject, it is for Scottish citizens alone to decide(which include amoungst other nationalities includes English born nationals who according to the 2001 census make up 8% of the Scottish population.

sundownersvince
25-06-2011, 01:48
Dont worry,,,,,the rest of the EU will bail you out when it goes belly up.

caroletenerife
25-06-2011, 09:38
Dont worry,,,,,the rest of the EU will bail you out when it goes belly up.

I know, haha, the Irish got massive handouts, but us Scots are a canny lot and would stash it under the bed for the inevitable rainy day, then come live in Tenerife and not pay any tax:)

dokgolf
25-06-2011, 11:43
Please leave the Irish "handout" for another thread. Its a source of considerable anger here that it was FORCED upon us.

Added after 3 minutes:

With regards to an independent Scottish state, there's no reason why it would fail, no more than any other country. From a purely "outside" view, would there be different political views between highland, lowland and border regions?

Angusjim
25-06-2011, 13:34
Please leave the Irish "handout" for another thread. Its a source of considerable anger here that it was FORCED upon us.

Added after 3 minutes:

With regards to an independent Scottish state, there's no reason why it would fail, no more than any other country. From a purely "outside" view, would there be different political views between highland, lowland and border regions?

ALEX SALMOND WHAT A TOSSER:fryingpan:

lord_cheeseman
25-06-2011, 16:47
Dont worry,,,,,the rest of the EU will bail you out when it goes belly up.

unfortunately their plans involve trying to keep the pound etc and using the UK credit rating to borrow shed loads of cash and at the same time reducing taxation to try and create the illusion that things are hunky dory (A bit like what Greece, Ireland et al (I don't like the term PIIGS) have done with the euro). I for one don't mind them giving it a shot, I just don't want any part in paying for it. If they go, they go completely or they shut their jibba jabba and tow the UK line.

There are other parties to vote for other than labour and the SNP (both of which are socialist scum). I for one vote for the party that is for reducing the influence of the government on my daily life and aims to spend my tax money improving infrastructure rather than creating over paid non jobs with chunky pensions for the masses paid for by funny money! I.e. the complete opposite of what the SNP and labour stand for!

Harmonicaman
25-06-2011, 17:07
I remember the provocative nature of the old thread...once bitten, twice etc etc.


unfortunately their plans involve trying to keep the pound etc and using the UK credit rating to borrow shed loads of cash and at the same time reducing taxation to try and create the illusion that things are hunky dory (A bit like what Greece, Ireland et al (I don't like the term PIIGS) have done with the euro). I for one don't mind them giving it a shot, I just don't want any part in paying for it. If they go, they go completely or they shut their jibba jabba and tow the UK line.

There are other parties to vote for other than labour and the SNP (both of which are socialist scum). I for one vote for the party that is for reducing the influence of the government on my daily life and aims to spend my tax money improving infrastructure rather than creating over paid non jobs with chunky pensions for the masses paid for by funny money! I.e. the complete opposite of what the SNP and labour stand for!

See........................:whistle:

caroletenerife
25-06-2011, 17:47
unfortunately their plans involve trying to keep the pound etc and using the UK credit rating to borrow shed loads of cash and at the same time reducing taxation to try and create the illusion that things are hunky dory (A bit like what Greece, Ireland et al (I don't like the term PIIGS) have done with the euro). I for one don't mind them giving it a shot, I just don't want any part in paying for it. If they go, they go completely or they shut their jibba jabba and tow the UK line.

There are other parties to vote for other than labour and the SNP (both of which are socialist scum). I for one vote for the party that is for reducing the influence of the government on my daily life and aims to spend my tax money improving infrastructure rather than creating over paid non jobs with chunky pensions for the masses paid for by funny money! I.e. the complete opposite of what the SNP and labour stand for!

If you mean the Tories, it will be a cold day in hell before they get a sniff of power in Scotland other than that i] dont know who you mean, it must be either, The Monster Raving Looneys or the BNP.


See........................:whistle:

I dont mind , it amuses me:D:D

Added after 29 minutes:


Please leave the Irish "handout" for another thread. Its a source of considerable anger here that it was FORCED upon us.

Added after 3 minutes:

With regards to an independent Scottish state, there's no reason why it would fail, no more than any other country. From a purely "outside" view, would there be different political views between highland, lowland and border regions?

http://www.alba.org.uk/maps/scottishmaps.html

This shows results approx ten years.
Sorry, didnt mean to open a can of Irish worms x It may seem like the SNP and Libs have alot of power due the green and yellow mass, but unforunatley for them NOONE lives there haha. The majority of the population is located in the central belt between Glasgow and Edinburgh, they traditionally vote labour, so Labour had more seats
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/8495468/Scottish-Election-2011-results-map.html
This is the latest election....ooops, where has the red gone. (their own fault and are being punished accordingly) The libs have vanished because they set up camp with the mortal enemy. The Tories only get the votes of the landed gentry in the south.
As for Cheesy's comment about jibba jabbering....in Scotland we 'blether':p

Harmonicaman
04-07-2011, 21:22
Here's the latest results of an ENGLISH poll. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13995097) Interesting...

MaxineC
04-07-2011, 21:32
Here's the latest results of an ENGLISH poll. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13995097) Interesting...



Were the 864 people they polled in England, Scots living there....? :whistle: :D

Ecky Thump
04-07-2011, 21:36
Lets have a poll asking only the English to vote whether they would like Scotland to be excluded from the UK and then those of us from North of the border could call all those from England who vote yes, racists.:D

pablo1
04-07-2011, 21:56
Lets have a poll asking only the English to vote whether they would like Scotland to be excluded from the UK and then those of us from North of the border could call all those from England who vote yes, racists.:D

I don't mind Scotland, it's the inhabitants that are a bit dodgy.... :-)

Hope you enjoyed the rest of your Hols ecky, was nice to meet you.

MaxineC
04-07-2011, 22:03
I don't mind Scotland, it's the inhabitants that are a bit dodgy.... :-)

Hope you enjoyed the rest of your Hols ecky, was nice to meet you.

:crylaughing: :crylaughing: :crylaughing:

Ecky Thump
04-07-2011, 22:14
I don't mind Scotland, it's the inhabitants that are a bit dodgy.... :-)

Hope you enjoyed the rest of your Hols ecky, was nice to meet you.

Like most folk throughout the world, people are just scared of hairy ar**d men wearing skirts, with a howling sheep's stomach under his arms, shouting "Another for Hector".:raspberry:

Malteser Monkey
04-07-2011, 22:26
naaaaa Ecky yees teet arsed f.....s jeest stay were yee is:ban::raspberry2::lol::lol::lol::lol:

pablo1
04-07-2011, 22:28
Like most folk throughout the world, people are just scared of hairy ar**d men wearing skirts, with a howling sheep's stomach under his arms, shouting "Another for Hector".:raspberry:

Scared?? That's a result in some of the places i've frequented in my time!! :-)

tracey
04-07-2011, 22:41
What would I know. I am from Berwick so one minute I am English and the next Scottish :raspberry:.
Got independent by moving to Spain!! lol

caroletenerife
04-07-2011, 22:47
What do you think this means
'If Scotland voted for separation, 45% said they would like a referendum in the rest of the UK'

Does it mean the other nations would like to vote on total dismantling of the union.

Or does it mean, they would like a referendum on whether they would allow Scotland to go.

Carol55
04-07-2011, 22:49
naaaaa Ecky yees teet arsed f.....s jeest stay were yee is:ban::raspberry2::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Ecky is that tight ar**d, that he can hold €5.55 all in coins between his cheeks.:eyebrows:

reggie
04-07-2011, 22:55
You know that adrians wall, they should move it, so it seperates england from scotland, then if they want to come down where its warmer, they could pay a toll, so thats not going to happen, and i cant imagine english want to go further up than wetherby,
:run:

caroletenerife
04-07-2011, 23:10
And the english could pay a toll to get their mitts on our water when it doesn't rain for a fortnight and they announce a drought:)

tracey
04-07-2011, 23:10
Now Reggie, do you want me to shout at you again?!?!?!? lol
Scotland is lovely BUT I am English from pretty Northumberland (until it moves back to Scotland)

caroletenerife
04-07-2011, 23:31
Now Reggie, do you want me to shout at you again?!?!?!? lol
Scotland is lovely BUT I am English from pretty Northumberland (until it moves back to Scotland)

Yeh be Scottish, everything is FRRREEEEEE:)

BobMac
06-07-2011, 10:11
Yeh be Scottish, everything is FRRREEEEEE:)

I'm Scottish and proud of it, but if they go independent, nothing will be free - they won't have the money to cover the cost of all the free services once the grant from Westminster stops.

reggie
06-07-2011, 10:17
Yeh be Scottish, everything is FRRREEEEEE:)

Bunch of free loaders, wait until you have to pay your way, and we dont need your water, its champagne all the way down here,
:raspberry2::raspberry::run:

Ecky Thump
06-07-2011, 10:39
Bunch of free loaders, wait until you have to pay your way, and we dont need your water, its champagne all the way down here,
:raspberry2::raspberry::run:

I think you are wise to stick with the Champagne as outside of Motherwell Sewage Plant there is a big sign that boldly shows....................


"Today Scotland's Sewage, Tomorrow England's Drinking Water!"

So you see Reggie, there is a little bit of Scotland in all of you south of the border.:raspberry:

caroletenerife
06-07-2011, 17:03
Bunch of free loaders, wait until you have to pay your way, and we dont need your water, its champagne all the way down here,
:raspberry2::raspberry::run:

why eat your own bread when someone else will pay for cake:raspberry2::raspberry2:

Added after 11 minutes:


I'm Scottish and proud of it, but if they go independent, nothing will be free - they won't have the money to cover the cost of all the free services once the grant from Westminster stops.

i know that and im not in favour of independance however, the Barnett formla was set up in the 70's by a Conservative government, an kept in place by consecutive Westminser governments, the English cant blame the Scottish for that

BobMac
06-07-2011, 20:15
If Scotland want's a vote on independence and that will lead to the break-up of the Uk if the result is a Yes vote, surely everyone in the UK is entitled too have a vote as the result has implications for the whole UK, not just Scotland.

A thought on this - if Scotland does get it's independence, what happens to Labour ?

Without all their Scottish MP's at Westminster, they will never be in a position to form a government again

tracey
06-07-2011, 21:08
Hey I am from ´Berwick. what would I know?!?! Scottish one day, English the next lol

caroletenerife
08-07-2011, 02:21
If Scotland want's a vote on independence and that will lead to the break-up of the Uk if the result is a Yes vote, surely everyone in the UK is entitled too have a vote as the result has implications for the whole UK, not just Scotland.

A thought on this - if Scotland does get it's independence, what happens to Labour ?

Without all their Scottish MP's at Westminster, they will never be in a position to form a government again

Not really, when the soviet union was breaking up, Russia would have dearly loved to stop it (with tanks and missiles ) but the world was watching. Russia had no say in it, the individual countries such as Ukraine decided to leave the Union.

I do not think Labour would ever get enough votes to form a government south of the border, thats why Labour needs Scotland and appeased the scots with disproportionate civil service jobs.

Shugstar63
10-01-2012, 01:39
Think that this thread needs serious thought given the recent events what with Cameron asking when Scotland will decide!

My thoughts ?

Salmon ? Held up Iceland and Ireland as blueprints for a new Scotland.....both bust!

Now he's scouting Scandanavia........though the Swedes have years of planning behind them.....so they have sorted their own economy.

As far as I can see the SNP policies seem to consist of council tax freezes,free prescriptions and an open door policy on immigration..................the worry is that these policies will have to be paid for at some point !!

I live in Scotland as we speak..............but should the country ever become independent....I have 2 options...................................Move to England or my preferred destination................T......e

beerfan
10-01-2012, 01:49
As far as I can see the SNP policies seem to consist of council tax freezes,free prescriptions and an open door policy on immigration..................the worry is that these policies will have to be paid for at some point !!

Indeed. 'Independence' won't happen, I'm sure of that.

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 02:43
Think that this thread needs serious thought given the recent events what with Cameron asking when Scotland will decide!

My thoughts ?

Salmon ? Held up Iceland and Ireland as blueprints for a new Scotland.....both bust!

Now he's scouting Scandanavia........though the Swedes have years of planning behind them.....so they have sorted their own economy.

As far as I can see the SNP policies seem to consist of council tax freezes,free prescriptions and an open door policy on immigration..................the worry is that these policies will have to be paid for at some point !!

I live in Scotland as we speak..............but should the country ever become independent....I have 2 options...................................Move to England or my preferred destination................T......e
I dont believe the Scots want Independence , and I'm pretty sure that Cameron statement tonight, telling them they need to decide will result in defiance. If there is one thing that riles the Scots is Tories telling them what to do. If there is a referendum, there will probably not be a straight yes or no option. There will be about 5 choices that will confuse everybody and the whole thing will be a joke.
If they did vote for Independence I would go back for the big party, then leg it again before it all hit the fan x

seanocelt
10-01-2012, 02:45
Born and spent 2/3rds of my life in Scotland. Whatever the Scottish people decide , the Scottish politicians will screw it up for them. Plus...............we cannae afford it.

beerfan
10-01-2012, 04:32
Born and spent 2/3rds of my life in Scotland. Whatever the Scottish people decide , the Scottish politicians will screw it up for them. Plus...............we cannae afford it.

I'm sure if circumstances were very different for the Scottish that they could make a very decent go of it... but not under the present circumstances.

Simon-M
10-01-2012, 09:37
I'm sure if circumstances were very different for the Scottish that they could make a very decent go of it... but not under the present circumstances.

Someone said the other day to a post of mine... if my aunt had bollxxxx, she would be my uncle. I think this statement works better here :)

tonypub
10-01-2012, 12:58
The basic facts are that Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average.

What about revenues? The same source shows Scottish total non-oil tax revenues coming in at £42.7bn in 2009-10, or £8,221 per head, which compares with total public expenditure attributable to Scotland of £59.2bn, or £11,370 per head.

Incidentally, these numbers include not just the so-called "identifiable" public spending that took place in Scotland, on schools, roads and the like, but also more amorphous parts of the budget like defense and debt interest.

On this basis, Scotland 'got' £16.5bn more in UK public spending in 2009-10 than it contributed to total UK revenues - or a 'subsidy' of around £3,150 per head.

Now it is customary - even south of the border - to point out that Scotland has greater spending needs than many other parts of the UK, because it has a higher unemployment rate, for example, and higher levels of expensive illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

So it's not necessarily a sign of great profligacy that the Scottish spend more per head. That is one reason why more than half of Scotland's public spending is allocated according to the dreaded "Barnett formula", which for sanity's sake I'm trying not to get into.

But Alex Salmond and his supporters have a more basic objection (phew), which is that the revenue figures for Scotland make no mention of North Sea oil. These are falling, but were still more than £6bn in 2009-10.

If you add in a proportion of those revenues, in line with Scotland's share of the UK population, it makes very little difference to the overall story. But if you say that more than 90% of the oil revenues are Scottish, as Mr Salmond would consider geographically appropriate, then you get Scotland 'putting in' £48.1bn in tax revenues in 2009-10, not £42.7bn.

Put it another way: Scotland provided 9.4% of total UK revenues and got 'only' 9.2% of UK public spending in return.

Now of course, the UK Treasury doesn't agree that the oil revenues belong to Scotland, and it almost certainly never will. In fact, as any Scottish Nationalist will happily tell you, it was the Treasury that helped to invent a new extra-territorial category of national output for North Sea oil, in the 1970s. Treasury statisticians will tell you it made sense to keep the oil sector separate from the broader UK economy. Mr Salmond will tell you it was a Whitehall plot to steal the oil from the Scots.

So there are two numbers to choose from, depending on whether you take a Whitehall view of oil, or the view from Holyrood.

On the Treasury view, the gap between spending and revenues in Scotland for 2009-10 was £3,150 per head. On the Scottish Nationalist view, the gap between spending and revenues was closer to £2,130.

Please, take your pick. All I ask is you bear in mind one other number - related to one other obvious, but very important fact. Namely, that Scotland is not the only part of the UK that is currently spending more than it raises in revenues.

If you apply the same kind calculation to the UK as a whole, the net 'subsidy' for the average person was well over £2,000 last year.

So Scotland and England do have that in common, after all.


The basic facts are that Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average.

What about revenues? The same source shows Scottish total non-oil tax revenues coming in at £42.7bn in 2009-10, or £8,221 per head, which compares with total public expenditure attributable to Scotland of £59.2bn, or £11,370 per head.

Incidentally, these numbers include not just the so-called "identifiable" public spending that took place in Scotland, on schools, roads and the like, but also more amorphous parts of the budget like defense and debt interest.

On this basis, Scotland 'got' £16.5bn more in UK public spending in 2009-10 than it contributed to total UK revenues - or a 'subsidy' of around £3,150 per head.

Now it is customary - even south of the border - to point out that Scotland has greater spending needs than many other parts of the UK, because it has a higher unemployment rate, for example, and higher levels of expensive illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

So it's not necessarily a sign of great profligacy that the Scottish spend more per head. That is one reason why more than half of Scotland's public spending is allocated according to the dreaded "Barnett formula", which for sanity's sake I'm trying not to get into.

But Alex Salmond and his supporters have a more basic objection (phew), which is that the revenue figures for Scotland make no mention of North Sea oil. These are falling, but were still more than £6bn in 2009-10.

If you add in a proportion of those revenues, in line with Scotland's share of the UK population, it makes very little difference to the overall story. But if you say that more than 90% of the oil revenues are Scottish, as Mr Salmond would consider geographically appropriate, then you get Scotland 'putting in' £48.1bn in tax revenues in 2009-10, not £42.7bn.

Put it another way: Scotland provided 9.4% of total UK revenues and got 'only' 9.2% of UK public spending in return.

Now of course, the UK Treasury doesn't agree that the oil revenues belong to Scotland, and it almost certainly never will. In fact, as any Scottish Nationalist will happily tell you, it was the Treasury that helped to invent a new extra-territorial category of national output for North Sea oil, in the 1970s. Treasury statisticians will tell you it made sense to keep the oil sector separate from the broader UK economy. Mr Salmond will tell you it was a Whitehall plot to steal the oil from the Scots.

So there are two numbers to choose from, depending on whether you take a Whitehall view of oil, or the view from Holyrood.

On the Treasury view, the gap between spending and revenues in Scotland for 2009-10 was £3,150 per head. On the Scottish Nationalist view, the gap between spending and revenues was closer to £2,130.

Please, take your pick. All I ask is you bear in mind one other number - related to one other obvious, but very important fact. Namely, that Scotland is not the only part of the UK that is currently spending more than it raises in revenues.

If you apply the same kind calculation to the UK as a whole, the net 'subsidy' for the average person was well over £2,000 last year.

So Scotland and England do have that in common, after all.pheww longest post i ever wrote:whistle:

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 14:05
Excellent post, rather you than me. The 'oil' question will always be argued over. It has always been a national pastime to focus on the past (bannockburn, william wallace, The clearances), the oil is no different. If the Scots had voted for Independance when it was first offered in the 70's the oil would have been ours, and I truly believe you would see a different Scotland today...but we bottled it. Today if the union was dissolved Scotland would be entitled to a percentage of everything, assets and liabilities. And as Tony says thats only 8.4%, even less since the Uk govt 'moved' the offshore territory line, that would give England a lot more offshore territory.

The Scottish wont vote to go, its too much of a headache untangling everything, welfare system, tax system, and not least the military. I think some Scots would just think 'I canny be ar*ed'. The chance for independance has come and gone, most of the oil revenue that could have built a solid economic base has been long spent. The SNP like to say there could be another big oil find in the future, but, would we handle it as well as the last one.
There is a notice in a pub in Arbroath (where oil jobs are THE only real quality employment) It states 'please god give us another oil strike and we promise not to p**s it against the wall this time:D

beerfan
10-01-2012, 15:20
The Scottish wont vote to go, its too much of a headache untangling everything, welfare system, tax system, and not least the military. I think some Scots would just think 'I canny be ar*ed'. The chance for independance has come and gone, most of the oil revenue that could have built a solid economic base has been long spent. The SNP like to say there could be another big oil find in the future, but, would we handle it as well as the last one.
There is a notice in a pub in Arbroath (where oil jobs are THE only real quality employment) It states 'please god give us another oil strike and we promise not to p**s it against the wall this time:D

Like I said, the problem is at the moment that the Scottish have a massive welfare state problem (even worse than much of England). One would think that for independence that they would need a very lean and small welfare state to begin with. That would be something else against their favour.

seanocelt
10-01-2012, 15:29
Please also factor in, if costs are the driving force in the arguement, that Scotland, and its islands ,have its small population spread out over 2/3rds of the UK 's land mass. A geographical nightmare to administrate financially due to terrain, climate and distances.

beerfan
10-01-2012, 16:23
Please also factor in, if costs are the driving force in the arguement, that Scotland, and its islands ,have its small population spread out over 2/3rds of the UK 's land mass. A geographical nightmare to administrate financially due to terrain, climate and distances.

Indeed. It's not as if Scotland is a small, densely populated country like, say, Malta might be.

You're wrong about Scotland having anywhere near 66% of the UK's landmass though - Scotland makes up 32% of the land area of the UK (England; Scotland; Wales; Northern Ireland).

seanocelt
10-01-2012, 17:25
ah a "third" not 2/3rds! Still, the scattered populated areas and Islands make it a big problem to cut costs and centralise much.

Tom & Sharon
10-01-2012, 17:59
The basic facts are that Scotland accounts for 8.4% of the UK population, 8.3% of the UK's total output and 8.3% of the UK's non-oil tax revenues - but 9.2% of total UK public spending.

Scottish Executive figures for 2009-10 show that spending per capita in Scotland was £11,370, versus £10,320 for the UK. In other words, spending in Scotland was £1,030 - or 10% higher - per head of population than the UK average.

What about revenues? The same source shows Scottish total non-oil tax revenues coming in at £42.7bn in 2009-10, or £8,221 per head, which compares with total public expenditure attributable to Scotland of £59.2bn, or £11,370 per head.

Incidentally, these numbers include not just the so-called "identifiable" public spending that took place in Scotland, on schools, roads and the like, but also more amorphous parts of the budget like defense and debt interest.

On this basis, Scotland 'got' £16.5bn more in UK public spending in 2009-10 than it contributed to total UK revenues - or a 'subsidy' of around £3,150 per head.

Now it is customary - even south of the border - to point out that Scotland has greater spending needs than many other parts of the UK, because it has a higher unemployment rate, for example, and higher levels of expensive illnesses like heart disease and cancer.

So it's not necessarily a sign of great profligacy that the Scottish spend more per head. That is one reason why more than half of Scotland's public spending is allocated according to the dreaded "Barnett formula", which for sanity's sake I'm trying not to get into.

But Alex Salmond and his supporters have a more basic objection (phew), which is that the revenue figures for Scotland make no mention of North Sea oil. These are falling, but were still more than £6bn in 2009-10.

If you add in a proportion of those revenues, in line with Scotland's share of the UK population, it makes very little difference to the overall story. But if you say that more than 90% of the oil revenues are Scottish, as Mr Salmond would consider geographically appropriate, then you get Scotland 'putting in' £48.1bn in tax revenues in 2009-10, not £42.7bn.

Put it another way: Scotland provided 9.4% of total UK revenues and got 'only' 9.2% of UK public spending in return.

Now of course, the UK Treasury doesn't agree that the oil revenues belong to Scotland, and it almost certainly never will. In fact, as any Scottish Nationalist will happily tell you, it was the Treasury that helped to invent a new extra-territorial category of national output for North Sea oil, in the 1970s. Treasury statisticians will tell you it made sense to keep the oil sector separate from the broader UK economy. Mr Salmond will tell you it was a Whitehall plot to steal the oil from the Scots.

So there are two numbers to choose from, depending on whether you take a Whitehall view of oil, or the view from Holyrood.

On the Treasury view, the gap between spending and revenues in Scotland for 2009-10 was £3,150 per head. On the Scottish Nationalist view, the gap between spending and revenues was closer to £2,130.

Please, take your pick. All I ask is you bear in mind one other number - related to one other obvious, but very important fact. Namely, that Scotland is not the only part of the UK that is currently spending more than it raises in revenues.

If you apply the same kind calculation to the UK as a whole, the net 'subsidy' for the average person was well over £2,000 last year.

So Scotland and England do have that in common, after all.

pheww longest post i ever wrote:whistle:

Not the old 'Oil' revenues debate,bit of a tangent this one but:-

Scotland's percentage of Oil production accounts for only 15% of total UK oil and gas revenues today!!!!

Even in its heyday it only ever accounted for only approximately 36% of total UK oil and gas revenues.

With the 'Interconnector' from Holland coming ashore at Bacton, Norfolk.
LNG (Liquified Natural Gas) coming ashore at Milford Haven,Wales (Schhoooossh,don't tell the Welsh :whistle:) the longest offshore pipeline in the Northern North Sea (Langeled ,Norway) coming ashore at Easington,Hull and more LNG coming ashore at National Grids terminal on the Isle of Grain in Kent,i think the English are more than self sufficient in Oil and Natural gas.
In fact, lets close the valves on the five main feeder pipelines down from Scotland at Cumbria and see who runs out of gas first? :bootyshake:

Anyway 65.7% of the time you can make up statistics and people will believe you!!

Just the ramblings of an old National Grid Gas Engineer (Ex)

Time for some more Vodka Caramel :vodkamachine:

Tom :tiphat:

Simon-M
10-01-2012, 18:17
If the Scots do get independence (please let it be true :)) then they will be out of the EU. If they want back in they will need to re-apply and that will most certainly mean joining the Euro.

Don't wish too hard .... it might just come true :) Is there a lamp post strong enough to hold the weight of Alex Salmond?

BobMac
10-01-2012, 18:22
On the oil question, how many of the oil producing companies are totally Scottish owned ??

I might be wrong, but I think they are all international companies.

If they do go independent, will they have to apply to join the EU and if they do join it, don't all new countries joining also have to join the Euro.

Now there's something to really cheer up the Scots.

I'm Scottish and I think it would be a total disaster if they go independent; they don't generate anywhere near enough income to actually finance all the SNP's grand ideas for free services for everyone.

And another question that will need to be addressed is if all non-Scottish people living in Scotland are being allowed to have a vote on this question, why are Scottish people who happen to live outside Scotland being denied a vote - apparently in the SNP's eyes they are traitors because they have left Scotland.

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 18:23
Does self sufficient not mean that you have no need of outside support, I must have failed at geography, i never realised Norway and Holland were part of English territory:D

Added after 7 minutes:


On the oil question, how many of the oil producing companies are totally Scottish owned ??

I might be wrong, but I think they are all international companies.

If they do go independent, will they have to apply to join the EU and if they do join it, don't all new countries joining also have to join the Euro.

Now there's something to really cheer up the Scots.

I'm Scottish and I think it would be a total disaster if they go independent; they don't generate anywhere near enough income to actually finance all the SNP's grand ideas for free services for everyone.

And another question that will need to be addressed is if all non-Scottish people living in Scotland are being allowed to have a vote on this question, why are Scottish people who happen to live outside Scotland being denied a vote - apparently in the SNP's eyes they are traitors because they have left Scotland.
I think your right about the oil fields being internationally owned, Maggie saw to that. its only the revenue that would bring in the money. Alex Salmond knows the Scottish would not vote for independance now, he wants to wait till at least 2014. Noone is going to vote for all the freebies to disappear, we not that daft. I didnt realise that ex pats couldnt vote, but then thats fair enough i suppose, I'm still registered to vote, so i will get my daughter to do it.

Tom & Sharon
10-01-2012, 18:43
Does self sufficient not mean that you have no need of outside support, I must have failed at geography, i never realised Norway and Holland were part of English territory:D

Indeed not, I'm just pointing out that any oil and gas coming ashore into the UK mainland does not ONLY come ashore in Scotland regardless of what Alex Salmond thinks .:D

In the 'North Sea Oil' boom days it was true to say that most offshore oil finds were geographically closest to Scotland and it was brought ashore at St Fergus as it is today.
Nowadays the NTS (National Transmission System, owned by National Grid) allows distribution of Natural Gas to all geographical corners of the UK mainland regardless of where it comes ashore (theoretically!!)

[QUOTE=BobMac;134636]On the oil question, how many of the oil producing companies are totally Scottish owned ??

None


Tom :tiphat:

BobMac
10-01-2012, 18:52
Does self sufficient not mean that you have no need of outside support, I must have failed at geography, i never realised Norway and Holland were part of English territory:D

Added after 7 minutes:


I think your right about the oil fields being internationally owned, Maggie saw to that. its only the revenue that would bring in the money. Alex Salmond knows the Scottish would not vote for independance now, he wants to wait till at least 2014. Noone is going to vote for all the freebies to disappear, we not that daft. I didnt realise that ex pats couldnt vote, but then thats fair enough i suppose, I'm still registered to vote, so i will get my daughter to do it.

According to an SNP spokesperson who was asked specifically if all Scots would have a vote on this, the answer was very specific that ONLY people who were actually resident in Scotland would have a vote, those who had chosen to move away from Scotland for whatever reason were in their eyes traitors to Scotland. So far no one from the SNP has actually contradicted that statement.

beerfan
10-01-2012, 18:57
ah a "third" not 2/3rds! Still, the scattered populated areas and Islands make it a big problem to cut costs and centralise much.

Agreed. Scotland is by far the most sparsely-populated part of the UK anyway. It has about the same population density as (the Republic of) Ireland but, as you say, only a small part of the country is really properly inhabited.


Scotland's percentage of Oil production accounts for only 15% of total UK oil and gas revenues today!!!!

Yes, I don't think this idea of Big Oily Fish has legs, do you? What a shame!



If the Scots do get independence (please let it be true :)) then they will be out of the EU. If they want back in they will need to re-apply and that will most certainly mean joining the Euro.

This is true. And, generally, the Scottish seem to be more pro-EU than the English.

As for the joining the eurozone: they don't have to join the moment they enter the EU but all new EU member states are contracted to join the euro at some point in the future. In fact, the only three EU countries that have exemptions are the UK, Denmark and Sweden.

Incidentally, a lot of those countries outside the EU but in mainland Europe are more than happy not being members - the Swiss have one of the highest living standards in Europe, the Icelanders are slowly recovering (they have technically applied to join the EU but many people there are extremely strongly against joining - see the likes of their Independence Party and Heimssın) and the Norwegians don't seem especially keen on joining although it is a very controversial subject in Norway.


Don't wish too hard .... it might just come true :) Is there a lamp post strong enough to hold the weight of Alex Salmond?

I'm sure there'd be a long queue and you'd be in line, behind most of the population of Scotland in that case, amigo. ;)


If they do go independent, will they have to apply to join the EU and if they do join it, don't all new countries joining also have to join the Euro.

As I said earlier, not immediately after but the general plan is that they do so as soon as possible. The Polish still haven't joined the euro, for instance, but the Maltese, the Cypriots and the Estonians have.


I didnt realise that ex pats couldnt vote, but then thats fair enough i suppose, I'm still registered to vote, so i will get my daughter to do it.

I'm sure that ultra-patriotic, SNP-voting Scot Sean Connery will be sending his postal vote from the Bahamas or wherever he lives these days. ;)


According to an SNP spokesperson who was asked specifically if all Scots would have a vote on this, the answer was very specific that ONLY people who were actually resident in Scotland would have a vote, those who had chosen to move away from Scotland for whatever reason were in their eyes traitors to Scotland.

So will they let non-Scots living in Scotland vote or not? What about the English minority in Scotland - do they get a voice? They do live there, after all.


So far no one from the SNP has actually contradicted that statement.

Charming!

tonypub
10-01-2012, 19:16
it seems mr salmond wants 16 and 17 year olds to vote:wow:

Carol55
10-01-2012, 20:15
it seems mr salmond wants 16 and 17 year olds to vote:wow:

I think that they should be allowed to vote, I feel this for a few reasons......

1/ 16 and 17 year old are far more knowledgeable about world affairs than a lot of people today.

2/ They are allowed to join the armed forces, with the chance that they could die for something that they have never been allowed to voice or vote a opinion on.

3/ They are far more mature than when the laws of voting were made.

3/ Some of them are far more able to make sound judgments than their parents (me included)!;)

tonypub
10-01-2012, 20:21
youll all be eating voles to survive in ten years:lol:

Carol55
10-01-2012, 20:23
youll all be eating voles to survive in ten years:lol:

And drinking the blood of a English Man.;)

tonypub
10-01-2012, 20:25
And drinking the blood of a English Man.;)im british:bootyshake:

Carol55
10-01-2012, 20:28
im british:bootyshake:

OK, you are a British Man, Liviing in Tenerife, but still born in ENGLAND.

Also I hope making Scots welcome in your pub.:cheeky:

tonypub
10-01-2012, 21:22
[QUOTE=

Also I hope making Scots welcome in your pub.:cheeky:[/QUOTE]of course,scots are the best drinkers thanks to the english social security payments:whistle:

warbey
10-01-2012, 21:40
Once upon a time We lived in GREAT Britain.

The Scots helped make it so, as did the Irish.
Whoever started this lot off should have been Beheaded for Treason.
United We stand, divided We f?><@{.

End of Story.

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 22:18
OK, you are a British Man, Liviing in Tenerife, but still born in ENGLAND.

Also I hope making Scots welcome in your pub.:cheeky:
I would deny it if I was English too, understandable really :lol:
I agree with you Carol on the voting, if you pay tax you should be entitled to have a say in how its spent...that is if they are lucky enough to have a job.

beerfan
10-01-2012, 22:54
Whoever started this lot off should have been Beheaded for Treason.

The Easter Rising let the genie out the bottle.

(ducks)


I agree with you Carol on the voting, if you pay tax you should be entitled to have a say in how its spent...that is if they are lucky enough to have a job.

One of the arguments against allowing non-tax paying people (and this includes people working for the State, as really their tax-paying is a bit of a fiction) is that the non-'productive' parts will simply vote time and again for their sector to be increased as they have an interest in doing so.

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 23:20
The Easter Rising let the genie out the bottle.

(ducks)



One of the arguments against allowing non-tax paying people (and this includes people working for the State, as really their tax-paying is a bit of a fiction) is that the non-'productive' parts will simply vote time and again for their sector to be increased as they have an interest in doing so.

Christ, with the unemployment figures going through the roof, no one will get a vote. It appears Big Alex has told 'Call me Dave' to eff off and mind his own business...hahahaha

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:22
And drinking the blood of a English Man.;)
I wonder why it is that is fine for Scots to be very unpleasant about the English but absolutely forbidden for anyone English to write what you've just written in reverse. You might think it's a joke but I find it offensive and I'm not joking. I've quite a mind to report you as a matter of fact,

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:31
I wonder why it is that is fine for Scots to be very unpleasant about the English but absolutely forbidden for anyone English to write what you've just written in reverse. You might think it's a joke but I find it offensive and I'm not joking. I've quite a mind to report you as a matter of fact,it was aimed at me and taken for the light hearted comment it was,but i do get your drift cainaries.nothing malicious here though.

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:36
it was aimed at me and taken for the light hearted comment it was,but i do get your drift cainaries.nothing malicious here though.

Thanks, tonypub, for pouring 'oil' on troubled waters. I still find it pretty offensive, frankly. And thanks for your informative posts with the statistics. I suspect 'eff off' Dave knows exactly what he is doing and he's not concerned about winning votes in Scotland.

Ecky Thump
10-01-2012, 23:36
I wonder why it is that is fine for Scots to be very unpleasant about the English but absolutely forbidden for anyone English to write what you've just written in reverse. You might think it's a joke but I find it offensive and I'm not joking. I've quite a mind to report you as a matter of fact,

If your post was not so stupid then maybe we would all laugh, and just for the record Carol is English, so please report away!

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:39
Thanks, tonypub, for pouring 'oil' on troubled waters. I still find it pretty offensive, frankly. And thanks for your informative posts with the statistics. I suspect 'eff off' Dave knows exactly what he is doing and he's not concerned about winning votes in Scotland.mr cameron and his party will be guaranteed the election victory every time if the labour party lose the sctch seats in parliment,so its win win for cam.

i dint really write that long post,lol.

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:41
If your post was not so stupid then maybe we would all laugh, and just for the record Carol is English, so please report away!
You have the advantage of knowing that she is English which I didn't. If she is English and supports Scottish independence then she and I are on the same side. Her posts don't read as though she's English. Would the fact that she is English mean that she couldn't be charged with being racist against the English??? No idea on that one.

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:42
You have the advantage of knowing her which I don't. If she is English and supports Scottish independence then she and I are on the same side. Her posts don't read as though she's English.i thought she was scotch?

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:44
i thought she was scotch?

A large one, please, tonypub, I need it.

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:44
did you know the first ever scotch egg was made in fortnum n masons in london

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 23:44
i thought she was scotch?

Whats Scotch???? i thought that was a drink

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:46
Whats Scotch???? i thought that was a drinkim english your scotch,lol

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 23:47
I have read through this thread, and if someone was ultra sensitive it has anti scottish sentiment on nine occasion...even one suggesting killing our beloved leader king Alex... no one has taken offence.. As for dave not interesting in getting votes in Scotland hahahahaha. thats a non starter and always has been since the 70's.

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:48
did you know the first ever scotch egg was made in fortnum n masons in london

I can't imagine Fortnums selling anything quite so ordinary as a Scotch Egg! Wonderful shop - I go and visit every time I go back - just to look, not to buy, not even a Scotch Egg. Maybe I'll ask for one next time.

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 23:48
im english your scotch,lol
No , Im Scottish

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:49
I have read through this thread, and if someone was ultra sensitive it has anti scottish sentiment on nine occasion...even one suggesting killing our beloved leader king Alex... no one has taken offence.. As for dave not interesting in getting votes in Scotland hahahahaha. thats a non starter and always has been since the 70's.

I expect Diane Abbott felt the same way .. everyone being ultra-sensitive.

Carol55
10-01-2012, 23:51
You have the advantage of knowing her which I don't. If she is English and supports Scottish independence then she and I are on the same side. Her posts don't read as though she's English.

The division between being Scottish and English at times is only a few centimetres and any differences are generally small, that is why we should as neighbors be able to share as Tony pointed out, humour, and if you take the time to read the posts or banter between Carol and Tony, that is what you will see, humour and no malice at all between them, or any aimed at any one else.:)

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:53
labour has 41 seats in scotland,tories have 1,dave and the tories win in the uk everytime without the SCOTCH as part of the union.dave dont need the scotch vote

caroletenerife
10-01-2012, 23:55
I expect Diane Abbott felt the same way .. everyone being ultra-sensitive.
Is she from Glasgow????:D

beerfan
10-01-2012, 23:55
As for dave not interesting in getting votes in Scotland hahahahaha. thats a non starter and always has been since the 70's.

Wasn't that actually because the Unionist Party in Scotland (which the English Conservatives had an electoral alliance with, much the same as was the case with the Ulster Unionists in Northern Ireland) being amalgamated into the UK Conservative Party? The UUP have been declining in NI ever since, by the way, and are now moribund.

cainaries
10-01-2012, 23:56
The division between being Scottish and English at times is only a few centimetres and any differences are generally small, that is why we should as neighbors be able to share as Tony pointed out, humour, and if you take the time to read the posts or banter between Carol and Tony, that is what you will see, humour and no malice at all between them, or any aimed at any one else.:)
I have read all the posts.
It may well be friendly banter between friends but on a public forum it does not necessarily read that way.

beerfan
10-01-2012, 23:57
everytime without the SCOTCH as part of the union.dave dont need the scotch vote

Using the term "Scotch" (unless it's meant in a friendly way) makes you look a bit of a tit IMO.

tonypub
10-01-2012, 23:58
theres a bar near the irish fiddler called scotch corner,it dont have a big whiskey flag up,it has a scotland flag up.for the scotch to feel at home in the scotch corner bar

Carol55
10-01-2012, 23:59
i thought she was scotch?

Just a well kept secret, especially kept from our son, a Scot through and through, who is trying to get the sale or export of Scottish Whisky to England banned, until I pointed out to him that without the income we in Scotland receive from its sale to the English, then the whole Scottish economy would collapse.;)

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:00
Using the term "Scotch" (unless it's meant in a friendly way) makes you look a bit of a tit IMO.oh dear???

beerfan
11-01-2012, 00:02
oh dear???

Have you, er, been on the, er, Scotch? Lower-taxed and all that? ;)

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:02
oh dear???
They've got you there, tonypub. A large Scotch (I'm still waiting) is the drink. They prefer to be called Scottish.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:02
labour has 41 seats in scotland,tories have 1,dave and the tories win in the uk everytime without the SCOTCH as part of the union.dave dont need the scotch vote
Yeh, but Labours b*m is twitching now, the massive shift to SNP in the last election was a shock , even to the SNP. Its Labour that need the scottish vote, if they are ever to get in at Westminster

beerfan
11-01-2012, 00:03
I can't imagine Fortnums selling anything quite so ordinary as a Scotch Egg! Wonderful shop - I go and visit every time I go back - just to look, not to buy, not even a Scotch Egg. Maybe I'll ask for one next time.

Have you had one with black pudding in?

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:03
They've got you there, tonypub. A large Scotch (I'm still waiting) is the drink. They prefer to be called Scottish.theres a bar near the irish fiddler called scotch corner,it dont have a big whiskey flag up,it has a scotland flag up.for the scotch to feel at home in the scotch corner bar ,i didnt call the bar scotch corner,they did

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:03
Yeh, but Labours b*m is twitching now, the massive shift to SNP in the last election was a shock , even to the SNP. Its Labour that need the scottish vote, if they are ever to get in at Westminster
Which might be why Dave is calling for the Referendum?!

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:05
Wasn't that actually because the Unionist Party in Scotland (which the English Conservatives had an electoral alliance with, much the same as was the case with the Ulster Unionists in Northern Ireland) being amalgamated into the UK Conservative Party? The UUP have been declining in NI ever since, by the way, and are now moribund.
Naw...t'was maggie that did it, before she got in power the tories had a resonable showing in Scotland. It will many moons before the Scots will trust any tory again

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:06
theres a bar near the irish fiddler called scotch corner,it dont have a big whiskey flag up,it has a scotland flag up.for the scotch to feel at home in the scotch corner bar ,i didnt call the bar scotch corner,they did

But it's in England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_Corner

Carol55
11-01-2012, 00:07
They've got you there, tonypub. A large Scotch (I'm still waiting) is the drink. They prefer to be called Scottish.

Errr No! British!:D

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:08
Have you had one with black pudding in?

Nooooo.... (this isn't a Diane Abbot joke is it?). I like black pudding .. especially here in the Canaries ... not very keen on Scotch eggs though.

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:08
http://www.pubutopia.com/pubs/G/Glasgow/The%20Scotch%20Corner/

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:08
Errr No! British!:D

As am I. End of. May be.

beerfan
11-01-2012, 00:09
Errr No! British!:D

That blue doesn't half look lovely on our flag. ;)

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:09
Which might be why Dave is calling for the Referendum?!
Totally...and Labour and wee ed knows it. But Labour think the Scots will come back to them, which they probably will in time. So Labour is confident in a NO vote, that will collapse the SNP support...I think Alex thinks this aswell, thats why he is putting off the referendum till 2014

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:09
http://www.pubutopia.com/pubs/G/Glasgow/The%20Scotch%20Corner/

There are probably quite a lot of them.


Totally...and Labour and wee ed knows it. But Labour think the Scots will come back to them, which they probably will in time. So Labour is confident in a NO vote, that will collapse the SNP support...I think Alex thinks this aswell, thats why he is putting off the referendum till 2014

Or why he would like to put off the Referendum til 2014 but may be he isn't going to get the option. We'll see.

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:11
http://www.pubutopia.com/pubs/G/Glasgow/The%20Scotch%20Corner/In The Oxford Companion To The English Language, OUP 1992, there is an entry on "Scotch", written by Professor A. J. Aitken, Honorary Professor, University of Edinburgh, formerly editor of "A Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue."

"SCOTCH: A late 16th century contraction of "Scottish", first in Early Modern English then in Older Scots. It ousted "Scottish" as the prevailing form in England. In Scotland, the native form "Scots" predominated until in the 18c Anglicizing vogue "Scotch" became fashionable in both countries.

In the early 19th c., however, some Scottish writers were expressing doubts about it as a supposed innovation and returning to the more traditional "Scottish" and "Scots", while others, such as J. A. H. Murray, editor of the OED, continued to use it.

By the early 20th c., disapproval of "Scotch" by educated Scots was so great that its use was regularly discountenanced by teachers, except for such entrenched phrases as Scotch broth, Scotch mist, Scotch terrier, Scotch tweed, Scotch whisky.

In England and North America, "Scotch" has remained the dominant form into the late 20c, although awareness of middle-class Scottish distaste for it has been spreading. The OED
Supplement, (1982) reported that in deference to Scottish sensibilities the English have been abandoning "Scotch" for "Scottish" and less frequently "Scots", and prefer "the Scots" to "the Scotch" as the name of the people.

Paradoxically, for working-class Scots the common form has long been "Scotch" (sometimes written "Scoatch") and the native form Scots is sometimes regarded as an Anglicized affectation."

Carol55
11-01-2012, 00:14
That blue doesn't half look lovely on our flag. ;)

:scotland:And we as Scots love to share the Tenerife flag that hangs proudly throughout the Island.:scotland:

cainaries
11-01-2012, 00:15
In The Oxford Companion To The English Language, OUP 1992, there is an entry on "Scotch", written by Professor A. J. Aitken, Honorary Professor, University of Edinburgh, formerly editor of "A Dictionary of the Older Scottish Tongue."

"SCOTCH: A late 16th century contraction of "Scottish", first in Early Modern English then in Older Scots. It ousted "Scottish" as the prevailing form in England. In Scotland, the native form "Scots" predominated until in the 18c Anglicizing vogue "Scotch" became fashionable in both countries.

In the early 19th c., however, some Scottish writers were expressing doubts about it as a supposed innovation and returning to the more traditional "Scottish" and "Scots", while others, such as J. A. H. Murray, editor of the OED, continued to use it.

By the early 20th c., disapproval of "Scotch" by educated Scots was so great that its use was regularly discountenanced by teachers, except for such entrenched phrases as Scotch broth, Scotch mist, Scotch terrier, Scotch tweed, Scotch whisky.

In England and North America, "Scotch" has remained the dominant form into the late 20c, although awareness of middle-class Scottish distaste for it has been spreading. The OED
Supplement, (1982) reported that in deference to Scottish sensibilities the English have been abandoning "Scotch" for "Scottish" and less frequently "Scots", and prefer "the Scots" to "the Scotch" as the name of the people.

Paradoxically, for working-class Scots the common form has long been "Scotch" (sometimes written "Scoatch") and the native form Scots is sometimes regarded as an Anglicized affectation."

You were right all along! I'm so sorry. I must have been told of the 'middle class Scottish distaste for it' by some Scottish middle class people I met somewhere. Or rather some Scotch middle class people! It's because I'm ultra-sensitive, I expect.

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:20
You were right all along! I'm so sorry. I must have been told of the 'middle class Scottish distaste for it' by some Scottish middle class people I met somewhere. Or rather some Scotch middle class people! It's because I'm ultra-sensitive, I expect.must be some snobs on here

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:26
Scots, Scottish or even Scotch. Sure most folk arent fussed, we are a very tolerant race...we need to be, look at the neighb:fpull:ours

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:31
Scots, Scottish or even Scotch. Sure most folk arent fussed, we are a very tolerant race...we need to be, look at the neighb:fpull:oursim not,3 of my former lady friends were scotch,different parts have different names for things.i.e.bap,barm,cob ,roll,bread cake etc etc.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:35
im not,3 of my former lady friends were scotch,different parts have different names for things.i.e.bap,barm,cob ,roll,bread cake etc etc.
thats they teuchters, confusing everybody messing with the language

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 00:38
im not,3 of my former lady friends were scotch,different parts have different names for things.i.e.bap,barm,cob ,roll,bread cake etc etc.

Tony, your getting yer self all fankled up, but your a stoater of a wee mon fer a Sasanach!:p

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:41
Tony, your getting yer self all fankled up, but your a stoater of a wee mon fer a Sasanach!:p
a ken fits he ganon aboot quins fur?

tonypub
11-01-2012, 00:43
i know why im goin on about girls for

hoots mon theres a moose loose aboot this hoose

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 00:54
i know why im goin on about girls for

hoots mon theres a moose loose aboot this hoose
Now he should be First Minister
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-xG3D8OMQk

Fender1
11-01-2012, 01:06
I have met Mr Salmond and he comes across as a blubbering fool with a one track mind "An Independanr Scotland". The United Kingdom is an Island consisting of England, Scotland & Wales in strictly alphabetical order. There is no other reason for this. That comment being for the benefit of those who look for hidden meanings. I am 100% Scottish. Mr Salmond has made no statements on what will happen with 1) Scottish Defence 2) Scottish Jobs if the Civil Service Offices are moved out of Scotland 3) How will the Countries assets be divided if there is a break up. 4) Is a Buffoon, such as Mr Salmond going to be Prime Minister, President or Dictator like Gaddaffi, Hussein or Hitler ??? He currently appears to be a mix of all three. Don't like the man, don't like what he stands for and his only visible policy seems to be "Let's spend money we don't have". Sorry, don't see a great future for his ideas !!!!

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 01:13
I have met Mr Salmond and he comes across as a blubbering fool with a one track mind "An Independanr Scotland". The United Kingdom is an Island consisting of England, Scotland & Wales in strictly alphabetical order. There is no other reason for this. That comment being for the benefit of those who look for hidden meanings. I am 100% Scottish. Mr Salmond has made no statements on what will happen with 1) Scottish Defence 2) Scottish Jobs if the Civil Service Offices are moved out of Scotland 3) How will the Countries assets be divided if there is a break up. 4) Is a Buffoon, such as Mr Salmond going to be Prime Minister, President or Dictator like Gaddaffi, Hussein or Hitler ??? He currently appears to be a mix of all three. Don't like the man, don't like what he stands for and his only visible policy seems to be "Let's spend money we don't have". Sorry, don't see a great future for his ideas !!!!

I have never met him, but i have heard him speak in public. He is very good at preaching to the converted, but like you say, is very good at dodging anything he doesn't want to discuss. Independance wont happen, this peak in popularity will wain. He retired and had to come back because HE IS THE SNP, there is no one else.

Fender1
11-01-2012, 01:22
I don't particularly agree that he is the SNP but he is the only one stupid enought to think he is. My wife, and I , told his door-to-door canvassers more or less what I stated here and their reply was "We Know", "We Humour Him"!!!

Leader ????? Stool Pigeon !!!!!

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 01:31
I don't particularly agree that he is the SNP but he is the only one stupid enought to think he is. My wife, and I , told his door-to-door canvassers more or less what I stated here and their reply was "We Know", "We Humour Him"!!!

Leader ????? Stool Pigeon !!!!!

haha....who else is there, Nicola sturgeon seems to be the only other high ish profile. thats what i meant about 'he is' the rest are very low profiile

beerfan
11-01-2012, 01:47
I have met Mr Salmond and he comes across as a blubbering fool with a one track mind "An Independanr Scotland". The United Kingdom is an Island consisting of England, Scotland & Wales in strictly alphabetical order.

I know it's pedantic but are you referring to the island of Great Britain (i.e. England, Scotland and Wales, although not all of Great Britain's territory is on the big island itself) or the United Kingdom (Great Britain + Northern Ireland) the sovereign state? Northern Ireland is in the UK as well you know. ;)


:scotland:And we as Scots love to share the Tenerife flag that hangs proudly throughout the Island.:scotland:

Yup, there's an, erm, enormous difference between the two!

Simon-M
11-01-2012, 09:09
theres a bar near the irish fiddler called scotch corner,it dont have a big whiskey flag up,it has a scotland flag up.for the scotch to feel at home in the scotch corner bar ,i didnt call the bar scotch corner,they did

Does that mean the Ibrox (Rangers) bar should have a flag with a geezer on a horse :) (I will get me coat)


It's because I'm ultra-sensitive, I expect.

Ahmen to that :)

tonypub
11-01-2012, 09:55
Does that mean the Ibrox (Rangers) bar should have a flag with a geezer on a horse :) (I will get me coat)



due to the standard of football they play up there maybe a donkey would be more appropriate

Medman
11-01-2012, 10:21
I'm a Scot but my nationality is British and that's how I like it. Our parents and grandparents fought together in two World Wars to defend a country and beliefs of Great Britain/UK. In my mind there is no place for either Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish Independence. There is more than enough unnecessary and unfounded bitterness and prejudice between the individual countries without this small minded minority pushing for independence. I'm not in the least politically minded as I feel the vast majority of politicians and councillors are only interested in themselves. So I suppose I am part of the problem, because like so many other "fence sitters" we don't voice our opinion or even bother to vote because we have no belief in the people supposedly representing us. This results in power hungry illiterates running the country. Rant over and out.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 10:35
Does that mean the Ibrox (Rangers) bar should have a flag with a geezer on a horse :) (I will get me coat)



Ahmen to that :)
The boys in blue would love that, who was he married to?????

dokgolf
11-01-2012, 10:41
I know it's pedantic but are you referring to the island of Great Britain (i.e. England, Scotland and Wales, although not all of Great Britain's territory is on the big island itself) or the United Kingdom (Great Britain + Northern Ireland) the sovereign state? Northern Ireland is in the UK as well you know. ;)



Yup, there's an, erm, enormous difference between the two!

True, but we live in hope!:lol:

tonypub
11-01-2012, 10:45
riles me when people say the scotch are tight.......the women certainly arnt:whistle:

Medman
11-01-2012, 11:01
riles me when people say the scotch are tight.......the women certainly arnt:whistle:

Point 1 - Scotch is a drink the people are Scots (do you have American blood in you Tony ?) :doh:

Point 2 - Scots women can't be tight coz we are big boys :D

tonypub
11-01-2012, 11:06
Point 1 - Scotch is a drink the people are Scots (do you have American blood in you Tony ?) :doh:

Point 2 - Scots women can't be tight coz we are big boys :Dcan i refer you back to post number 111.we know your big,weve seen under your skirts:D

Medman
11-01-2012, 11:11
can i refer you back to post number 111.we know your big,weve seen under your skirts:D

Ok, so Scotch is a pie as well as being a drink and a corner and PS I only wear a skirt on a hen night :D

tonypub
11-01-2012, 11:12
Ok, so Scotch is a pie as well as being a drink and a corner and PS I only wear a skirt on a hen night :Dwhat about a ken night?

Medman
11-01-2012, 11:17
what about a ken night?

We put the barbie on that night !

seanocelt
11-01-2012, 13:37
I'm a Scot but my nationality is British and that's how I like it. Our parents and grandparents fought together in two World Wars to defend a country and beliefs of Great Britain/UK. In my mind there is no place for either Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish Independence. There is more than enough unnecessary and unfounded bitterness and prejudice between the individual countries without this small minded minority pushing for independence. I'm not in the least politically minded as I feel the vast majority of politicians and councillors are only interested in themselves. So I suppose I am part of the problem, because like so many other "fence sitters" we don't voice our opinion or even bother to vote because we have no belief in the people supposedly representing us. This results in power hungry illiterates running the country. Rant over and out.

Damn good rant though. I agree with much of it, could add a lot more, but who would listen? Cameron is playing his wee political game, and most likely will win, in that Scotland cannot afford therefore will not vote for independence. But he will be villified just like Thatcher because of it, so his little victory will further strengthen the opposition in Scotland. He can handle that as his party always loses out there, but under current election rules, willl not matter or cost him much. He is an increasingly dangerous leader and if he gets a second term, especially outwith the coallition, it will be a grim future for the youth of the UK.

BoPeep
11-01-2012, 15:57
If Scotland goes independant do we

a Lose the union flag?
b Get all our money back that we gave the Royal Bank of Scotland?
c Do we go halves on building the 50 foot barbed wire fence between us?
d Do we share the oil or do Scotland give us all the research and development money back?
e Are the Scots prepared to come and collect all their thistles from my sheep field or do I have to pay rent for them?
f Can we then persuade our Government to charge Scottish uni undergrads as much as they charge ours?

This will produce some lively debate!!

BobMac
11-01-2012, 16:18
According to an SNP spokesperson who was asked specifically if all Scots would have a vote on this, the answer was very specific that ONLY people who were actually resident in Scotland would have a vote, those who had chosen to move away from Scotland for whatever reason were in their eyes traitors to Scotland. So far no one from the SNP has actually contradicted that statement.


So will they let non-Scots living in Scotland vote or not? What about the English minority in Scotland - do they get a voice? They do live there, after all.

The quote was specific in that only people actually resident in Scotland would be allowed to vote.

cainaries
11-01-2012, 16:23
If Scotland goes independant do we

a Lose the union flag?
b Get all our money back that we gave the Royal Bank of Scotland?
c Do we go halves on building the 50 foot barbed wire fence between us?
d Do we share the oil or do Scotland give us all the research and development money back?
e Are the Scots prepared to come and collect all their thistles from my sheep field or do I have to pay rent for them?
f Can we then persuade our Government to charge Scottish uni undergrads as much as they charge ours?

This will produce some lively debate!!

g. which currency will they use?
h. since Scotland will not be an EU member immediately, will people need work permits to work in each other's country? Will they have to have new passports?
i. Border controls at your 50 foot barbed wire fence?
j. should there be no inward investment until this is settled?
k. will there still be Scotch in England?

BobMac
11-01-2012, 16:26
labour has 41 seats in scotland,tories have 1,dave and the tories win in the uk everytime without the SCOTCH as part of the union.dave dont need the scotch vote

I would have thought that the prospect of losing 41 safe seats would be giving the Labour party serious cause for concern if Scotland does become independent. Without these MP's it's very difficult to see how Labour could ever actually achieve an overall majority at Westminster in future elections.

A Labour spokesman on BBC today actually raised a valid point on this issue - he pointed out that as this issue actually affects the WHOLE UK, surely the electorate of the whole UK should actually have a say on it, not just the Scottish voters.

Fender1
11-01-2012, 17:30
Re Seanocelt's Remarks

Please expand on what you mean by "an increasingly dangerous leader" and what has that to do with a blubbering, dogmatic character like Mr Salmond and his merry band, with no clear policies, creating an Independant Scotland with no "Forces", "Benefits System" and "Job Creation Structure" for starters.

BoPeep
11-01-2012, 18:11
I think that we ( NI, Wales and England) should also do a vote - 'Do we want to allow the Scottish to stay in the UK if they wish too' at the same time.

It is also surely correct that people should know the consequences of their vote, I cannot see it is correct to ask people to vote on something without giving all the information. This is a momentour decision that will affect all our lives for ever.

Is Alex Salmon seriously thinking of letting 16 year olds vote? 16 year olds are still at school, ask any sensible school teacher whether they would allow their class of 16 year olds make such a big decision, they cant drink or drive but they can make a decision on something as large and consequential as this, ridiculous! He really is clutching at straws!

seanocelt
11-01-2012, 18:14
I have no time for Salmond at all, so calm doon pal. No time for the SNP in general actually, they are just misfits who cant cut it with the major parties. I think Cameron is dangerous in that he reminds me of Thatcher, he will ensure the wealthy stay wealthy but opportunities for the young will diminish , in all of the UK. Plus, he is not respected internationally, important in a world in turmoil.
My point was and is, Cameron's timing and his way of courting his party faithfull, knowing he has nowt to lose North of the border, but can rattle sabers enough to make him look a stronger leader.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 19:13
g. which currency will they use?
h. since Scotland will not be an EU member immediately, will people need work permits to work in each other's country? Will they have to have new passports?
i. Border controls at your 50 foot barbed wire fence?
j. should there be no inward investment until this is settled?
k. will there still be Scotch in England?

a there will be NO union flag, our lion rampant is prettier anyway
b Its got the word royal in it, so no. but you can keep the family (except mabey Ann, who is ok)
c No need for a fence, we have tazers and polis on Irnbru to keep riff raff oot
d No we just keep it all
e we will exchange all the hardy thistles for all the woosy pansies
f Scots students get a loan to pay charges in England already. Foreign students get charged, thats fair enough (including your furure King who chose to study there)
g we will make one up, with nice pictures of mountains and the Monarch of the Glen on them
h slip someone a bottle a whiskey at the border..job done
i whats there to import from England?
j what inward investment...no change there then
k 2001 cenus had 408,000 English living in Scotland, and about 800,000 Scots in England (although most of them, probably got lost at Spaghetti junction, on their way home from a stag night). I suggest a hostage exchange scheme. To even the numbers you could buy on get one free


Seems Alex got his way in the end, with dave towing the line, and pretending hes happy about it

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 19:36
g. which currency will they use?
h. since Scotland will not be an EU member immediately, will people need work permits to work in each other's country? Will they have to have new passports?
i. Border controls at your 50 foot barbed wire fence?
j. should there be no inward investment until this is settled?
k. will there still be Scotch in England?

I think that we as a Nation could afford to do all the above as long as the English agree to pay royalties on the use of these things...

1. The pneumatic tyre. 2. The M.R.I Scanner. 3.The pedal cycle. 3.The overhead valve engine. 4.Tarmacadam roads. 5. The telephone. 6.Penicillin. 7.The flushing toilet. 8.The refrigerator. 9. The television. 10.The electric clock.
Plus many more innovations either invented or devised by the Scots. Oh just in-case we forget...The Bank of England!:D

Simon-M
11-01-2012, 19:45
I think that we as a Nation could afford to do all the above as long as the English agree to pay royalties on the use of these things...

1. The pneumatic tyre. 2. The M.R.I Scanner. 3.The pedal cycle. 3.The overhead valve engine. 4.Tarmacadam roads. 5. The telephone. 6.Penicillin. 7.The flushing toilet. 8.The refrigerator. 9. The television. 10.The electric clock.
Plus many more innovations either invented or devised by the Scots. Oh just in-case we forget...The Bank of England!:D

Let's do a reciprocal then....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries I think we have you well trumped!

Oh.. and the ENGLISH started the bank of Scotland :)

Fender1
11-01-2012, 19:47
I only wanted a fuller answer, so thanks for that !!!

I will, now further comment !!!


Margaret Thatcher in power 1) Gave people the Right to Buy their Council House if they so desired .

2) Tested the Poll Tax in Scotland, which we all hated her for, Labour
increased our Poll Tax to 3 times the amount.

3) Kept the Financial Sector in check, Brown & Blair opened the flood
gates for them to rip us all off.

4) Ensured that Immigration was controlled, Blair opened the floodgates
for allcomers to the UK.

Alex Salmond goes on about Bannockburn whereas the British(English,Irish,Welsh and Scottish) have stood together Worlwide to protect World Security as one Army and one Nation.

Scotland's Oil is not Scotland's Oil, it is in the Sea and belongs to the island known as Great Britain, when it was found we didn't have to listen to Mr Salmond's Crap!!! Mel Gibson is, or was, not William Wallace. The answer to another two of Salmond's Fairytale dreams.

I refer to my first post and would add:-

1) This man never gives straight answers to any question he is asked.
2) He lacks credibility as a Politician.
3) He is spending money he doesn't have(Same as Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain
have done), and who with any intelligence wants to get into that situation.
4) The strong vote that gave the SNP power was a protest not a vote of
confidence in that party.

No doubt, over a period of time, I will add more. Just give me time !!!

BoPeep
11-01-2012, 19:48
Maybe Ecky Thump ought to have a rethink! Wikipedia has 75 pages of Scottish inventions and 116 English ones!!

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 20:02
Let's do a reciprocal then....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries I think we have you well trumped!

Oh.. and the ENGLISH started the bank of Scotland :)


I'm glad you didn't quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica as you will find the very first edition is attributed to a Scot.:neener:

The Bank of Scotland you are welcome to, along with all its debts.:cheeky:

Added after 2 minutes:


Maybe Ecky Thump ought to have a rethink! Wikipedia has 75 pages of Scottish inventions and 116 English ones!!

But, most of the English one are useless for royalties.;)

tonypub
11-01-2012, 20:11
we (english)invented trousers,but the men up there still wear skirts:crazy:

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 20:13
I'm glad you didn't quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica as you will find the very first edition is attributed to a Scot.:neener:

The Bank of Scotland you are welcome to, along with all its debts.:cheeky:

Added after 2 minutes:




But, most of the English one are useless for royalties.;)

Lets no forget the populations sizes of both countries, so proportionately that makes us winners at the inventing game....yehh go Scotland :respect:


we (english)invented trousers,but the men up there still wear skirts:crazy:
Thats because they need lots of room up there xx

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 20:17
we (english)invented trousers,but the men up there still wear skirts:crazy:

Thats so we stay safe from the sexual advances of the English men, who we all know have a preference for each other.:whistle:

Simon-M
11-01-2012, 20:39
Thats so we stay safe from the sexual advances of the English men, who we all know have a preference for each other.:whistle:

Anglophobic AND Homophobic. That's nearly a full set.

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 20:42
Anglophobic AND Homophobic. That's nearly a full set.

Along with a sense of humour!;)

seanocelt
11-01-2012, 20:45
I only wanted a fuller answer, so thanks for that !!!

I will, now further comment !!!


Margaret Thatcher in power 1) Gave people the Right to Buy their Council House if they so desired .

2) Tested the Poll Tax in Scotland, which we all hated her for, Labour
increased our Poll Tax to 3 times the amount.

3) Kept the Financial Sector in check, Brown & Blair opened the flood
gates for them to rip us all off.

4) Ensured that Immigration was controlled, Blair opened the floodgates
for allcomers to the UK.

Alex Salmond goes on about Bannockburn whereas the British(English,Irish,Welsh and Scottish) have stood together Worlwide to protect World Security as one Army and one Nation.

Scotland's Oil is not Scotland's Oil, it is in the Sea and belongs to the island known as Great Britain, when it was found we didn't have to listen to Mr Salmond's Crap!!! Mel Gibson is, or was, not William Wallace. The answer to another two of Salmond's Fairytale dreams.

I refer to my first post and would add:-

1) This man never gives straight answers to any question he is asked.
2) He lacks credibility as a Politician.
3) He is spending money he doesn't have(Same as Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain
have done), and who with any intelligence wants to get into that situation.
4) The strong vote that gave the SNP power was a protest not a vote of
confidence in that party.

No doubt, over a period of time, I will add more. Just give me time !!!

Canae argue wi oany o that.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 20:53
Anglophobic AND Homophobic. That's nearly a full set.
Is that the same as Scotophobia?

beerfan
11-01-2012, 21:04
Along with a sense of humour!;)

True, but humour can be used to deliver bigotry too. Imagine the response here if someone started telling "****" jokes for instance.


A Labour spokesman on BBC today actually raised a valid point on this issue - he pointed out that as this issue actually affects the WHOLE UK, surely the electorate of the whole UK should actually have a say on it, not just the Scottish voters.

Not really. It's Scotland's choice alone what she decides to do - same as it would be England's if she decided to leave the Union, or Northern Ireland's if they decided to have a border poll up there.

Added after 10 minutes:


g. which currency will they use?

They might decide to do what the Irish Free State/Ireland did where their punt was at par with the pound sterling (until 1979). Have a Scottish pound at par with the rump UK one until they join the yo-yo.


h. since Scotland will not be an EU member immediately, will people need work permits to work in each other's country?

Depends if Scotland joins the EEA immediately after becoming independent or not. Depends on the mood of people but I would suspect that the answer would be 'no'. Consider what happened after Ireland's independence for instance - Irish people were still considered British up until around 1949.


Will they have to have new passports?

Yes, eventually. Like I said, I'm sure the Scottish would get similar (if not more) privileges than the Irish did.


i. Border controls at your 50 foot barbed wire fence?

Are there land border controls between Ireland and the United Kingdom?

And so on.


k. will there still be Scotch in England?

Traders don't generally care what the colour of the money is, as long as they can spend it. I'm sure the Scottish will be more than happy to sell their distilled bog-water to the English after 'independence'.

I think the Scots should be more worried about the continued availability of Buckfast, personally. ;)

BobMac
11-01-2012, 21:20
Not really. It's Scotland's choice alone what she decides to do - same as it would be England's if she decided to leave the Union, or Northern Ireland's if they decided to have a border poll up there.

Are there land border controls between Ireland and the United Kingdom?

And so on.

I beg to differ with you on that - Scotland is part of the UK, any decision on their position within the UK has got to be decided by the UK as a whole, not just Scotland.

As Ireland and the UK are both EU states there are minimal border controls between them.

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 21:22
True, but humour can be used to deliver bigotry too. Imagine the response here if someone started telling "****" jokes for instance.
.

That is something that I am not, given the fact that my wife is English as are many of my friends also some from other countries, including some that I met while working and living in Asia and Africa.

If you feel that any of my posts show bigotry and have offended you, then please send me a PM and I will explain the intended humour to you, as it would appear from your post that have missed it.

Simon-M
11-01-2012, 21:22
Along with a sense of humour!;)


I don't think that defense works North or South of the border :)

beerfan
11-01-2012, 21:24
I beg to differ with you on that - Scotland is part of the UK, any decision on their position within the UK has got to be decided by the UK as a whole, not just Scotland.

Hardly democratic though is it?

Can you imagine the outrage of the Scots if the rest of the UK heavily voted against Scottish independence and Scotland had a very high majority in favour?

But neither Ireland nor the UK are in Schengen, which applies to most of the EU (and I think is the arrangement you're referring to). We have the Common Travel Area instead. The same agreement would be given to Scotland, I imagine.


That is something that I am not,

Not saying you are, friend, but that it can be used that way.

Simon-M
11-01-2012, 21:26
Is that the same as Scotophobia?

No, Anglophobia is anti English Sentiment. Scotophobia is Anti Scottish sentiment :) Homophobia is however Homophobia in both England and Scotland :)

warbey
11-01-2012, 21:30
Thats so we stay safe from the sexual advances of the English men, who we all know have a preference for each other.:whistle:

As I was saying, We NEED Each other Ecky.. Ya braw wee laddie....:mad:


Then its Devolution for Wales. ( We who have all the Drinking water.)

beerfan
11-01-2012, 21:30
Homophobia is however Homophobia in both England and Scotland :)

So the Scottish can be afraid of their houses too? Didn't know that! ;)

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 21:33
Hardly democratic though is it?

Can you imagine the outrage of the Scots if the rest of the UK heavily voted against Scottish independence and Scotland had a very high majority in favour?

But neither Ireland nor the UK are in Schengen, which applies to most of the EU (and I think is the arrangement you're referring to). We have the Common Travel Area instead. The same agreement would be given to Scotland, I imagine.

Not saying you are, friend, but that it can be used that way.

I hope your use of the words "Haggis Munchers" is not disguised bigotry towards the Scottish people.:nono:

Simon-M
11-01-2012, 21:36
So the Scottish can be afraid of their houses too? Didn't know that! ;)

Also, someone with no sense of humour is called Humourless as opposed to humerus which is your elbow .. otherwise known as The Spanish Archer.

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 21:37
As I was saying, We NEED Each other Ecky.. Ya braw wee laddie....:mad:


Then its Devolution for Wales. ( We who have all the Drinking water.)

Thats the one thing that I am sure of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England should not be divided into individual packages and I have never shown this in any serious form or manner.

warbey
11-01-2012, 21:43
:agree::hug:
Thats the one thing that I am sure of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England should not be divided into individual packages and I have never shown this in any serious form or manner.

cainaries
11-01-2012, 21:53
Hardly democratic though is it?

Can you imagine the outrage of the Scots if the rest of the UK heavily voted against Scottish independence and Scotland had a very high majority in favour?

But neither Ireland nor the UK are in Schengen, which applies to most of the EU (and I think is the arrangement you're referring to). We have the Common Travel Area instead. The same agreement would be given to Scotland, I imagine.



Not saying you are, friend, but that it can be used that way.

Personally, I don't think there is much likelihood of the vote you envisage: i.e. that the Scots vote for independence whereas everyone else votes against it.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 21:59
Thats the one thing that I am sure of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England should not be divided into individual packages and I have never shown this in any serious form or manner.
As far as I can see, no one has. Mabey the hope was a fiercely independance in waiting nationalist would come online, so they could take a whack at them but they are few and far between, most Scots are happy to take the dosh from Westminster, and as i have said previously in this post, the formula used to calculate said dosh was implemented by the UK government...so blame them. The fact that the Scots dont care what the English think and joke about it...is what really wrangles....hence the threat of a red card. Canny do anything about dour folk

warbey
11-01-2012, 22:00
Personally, I don't think there is much likelihood of the vote you envisage: i.e. that the Scots vote for independence whereas everyone else votes against it.

The Public have a lot more sense than some Politicians, (and others) give them credit for..

beerfan
11-01-2012, 22:17
Thats the one thing that I am sure of Scotland, Ireland, Wales and England should not be divided into individual packages and I have never shown this in any serious form or manner.

Most of Ireland left in 1922.

Added after 2 minutes:


Personally, I don't think there is much likelihood of the vote you envisage: i.e. that the Scots vote for independence whereas everyone else votes against it.

I don't think that will happen either. But it is technically possible. In that situation, where would people go from there? Would the Scots just think "oh well then, we'd best pack the declaration of independence away for another day" or would they begin to get violent?

I get the impression that many English don't care that much about unionism and it's more a passion of the Scottish and Ulster's unionists.

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 22:55
From the Declaration 1320
as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

2012
Indeed tuck that declaration away. THAT freedom in 2012 means having the freedom to spend English money as we see fit, whether it be on wine, women/men and song or indeed a bottle of bucky and an ipod, long may it continue :D

dokgolf
11-01-2012, 22:59
True, but humour can be used to deliver bigotry too. Imagine the response here if someone started telling "****" jokes for instance.



Not really. It's Scotland's choice alone what she decides to do - same as it would be England's if she decided to leave the Union, or Northern Ireland's if they decided to have a border poll up there.

Added after 10 minutes:



They might decide to do what the Irish Free State/Ireland did where their punt was at par with the pound sterling (until 1979). Have a Scottish pound at par with the rump UK one until they join the yo-yo.



Depends if Scotland joins the EEA immediately after becoming independent or not. Depends on the mood of people but I would suspect that the answer would be 'no'. Consider what happened after Ireland's independence for instance - Irish people were still considered British up until around 1949. ;)

Only by the British. We were "neutral" during WW2 ( albeit with a huge bias toward Allied forces ). Even Churchill promised to give us back the 6 counties in return for use of our Atlantic ports. He wasn't however, prepared to put it in writing.

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 23:16
From the Declaration 1320
as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.

2012
Indeed tuck that declaration away. THAT freedom in 2012 means having the freedom to spend English money as we see fit, whether it be on wine, women/men and song or indeed a bottle of bucky and an ipod, long may it continue :D

The one thing that we as Scots will not part with is our ability to enjoy life to the full and smile at any adversity.;)

As Benjamin Disraeli said..............

In Prosperity our friends know us, in Adversity, we know our friends.

beerfan
11-01-2012, 23:16
Only by the British.

True, but for a long time Irish people living in the UK (we'll put the Ulster issue aside) had far more rights than the citizens of many other countries.


We were "neutral" during WW2 ( albeit with a huge bias toward Allied forces ).

I can understand why Ireland was neutral during the war. Still stuck in Britain's craw though many brave Irishmen went to fight with Britain instead. :)


Even Churchill promised to give us back the 6 counties in return for use of our Atlantic ports. He wasn't however, prepared to put it in writing.

I don't think he would ever seriously have countenanced surrendering Northern Ireland.


THAT freedom in 2012 means having the freedom to spend English money as we see fit, whether it be on wine, women/men and song or indeed a bottle of bucky and an ipod, long may it continue :D

Just you try spending 'Scottish' or indeed 'Northern Irish' (never mind 'Manx', 'Guernsey' or 'Jersey') notes of the British pound sterling in England though. ;)

As an Englishman I'm not averse to sprinkling a bit of Buckie on my ice cream on occasion. Gives it a wonderfully powerful kick. :)

Why are you all looking at me like I've just farted? ;)

9PLUS
11-01-2012, 23:23
More time should be spent on bonding and making a greater United Kingdom


And away with all this you and us shyte



cheers

x

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 23:29
True, but for a long time Irish people living in the UK (we'll put the Ulster issue aside) had far more rights than the citizens of many other countries.



I can understand why Ireland was neutral during the war. Still stuck in Britain's craw though many brave Irishmen went to fight with Britain instead. :)





I don't think he would ever seriously have countenanced surrendering Northern Ireland.



Just you try spending 'Scottish' or indeed 'Northern Irish' (never mind 'Manx', 'Guernsey' or 'Jersey') notes of the British pound sterling in England though. ;)

As an Englishman I'm not averse to sprinkling a bit of Buckie on my ice cream on occasion. Gives it a wonderfully powerful kick. :)

Why are you all looking at me like I've just farted? ;)

I spend scottish money in England all the time, if i think there is going to be a problem I open whatever i have bought and if its food start eating it, they change their tune then. In Scotland we accepted Ulster banknotes no problem...we are not arrogant or indeed ignorant enough to refuse a perfectly good 'legal tender' (see, Michael macIntyre's Scottish money sketch...funny and true).
I have never tasted Buckfast, the smell is enough to put you off.

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 23:36
[QUOTE=beerfan;135150]
Just you try spending 'Scottish' or indeed 'Northern Irish' (never mind 'Manx', 'Guernsey' or 'Jersey') notes of the British pound sterling in England though. ;)
QUOTE]

I have rarely encountered spending Scottish bank notes in England or in many other parts of the world, indeed in one particular money exchange in Puerto de la Cruz you can get a extra cent to the pound on Scottish notes as opposed to English notes, I think as I remember its about two hundred metres from the Monopol Hotel.:)

caroletenerife
11-01-2012, 23:39
[QUOTE=beerfan;135150]
Just you try spending 'Scottish' or indeed 'Northern Irish' (never mind 'Manx', 'Guernsey' or 'Jersey') notes of the British pound sterling in England though. ;)
QUOTE]

I have rarely encountered spending Scottish bank notes in England or in many other parts of the world, indeed in one particular money exchange in Puerto de la Cruz you can get a extra cent to the pound on Scottish notes as opposed to English notes, I think as I remember its about two hundred metres from the Monopol Hotel.:)
Thats cos we have prettier pictures on our notes

Ecky Thump
11-01-2012, 23:45
[QUOTE=beerfan;135150]
Just you try spending 'Scottish' or indeed 'Northern Irish' (never mind 'Manx', 'Guernsey' or 'Jersey') notes of the British pound sterling in England though. ;)
QUOTE]

I have rarely encountered spending Scottish bank notes in England or in many other parts of the world, indeed in one particular money exchange in Puerto de la Cruz you can get a extra cent to the pound on Scottish notes as opposed to English notes, I think as I remember its about two hundred metres from the Monopol Hotel.:)

I think that was a Freudian slip on my part, it should read.......

I have rarely encountered problems spending Scottish notes in England.

Maybe as a Scott, I dont like spending my money!:D

Fender1
12-01-2012, 00:09
As the populace of most Countries in the World have been drinking "Distilled Scottish Bog-Water" for many years, perhaps this could be the reason so many Anti-Scottish" contributors on here talk so much Sh***. I would also say
there is more Buckfast(English Monks Crap to help them forget about women) in Spain than there is in Scotland.

beerfan
12-01-2012, 00:53
I think it depends where you are in England. An Ulster or Scottish banknote in Blackpool is fairly common for instance and in the major supermarket chains there is, again, no problem with any UK banknote (though they hesitate for a second). It's mainly smaller traders like newsagents I've found that have a problem with it. I've had pubs reject Ulster banknotes (probably doesn't help that there are four different issuing banks in the "Praavince").

Added after 2 minutes:


As the populace of most Countries in the World have been drinking "Distilled Scottish Bog-Water" for many years, perhaps this could be the reason so many Anti-Scottish" contributors on here talk so much Sh***.

I just personally dislike Scotch whisky. Bleurgh. I like other parts of Scottish cuisine though. :)


I would also say there is more Buckfast(English Monks Crap to help them forget about women) in Spain than there is in Scotland.

I'm more than happy to agree with you on Buckfast. It is crap... but I like it. Not enough caffeine in it though (that's fighting words, really).

Perhaps I've never managed to find a whisky that I could tolerate... or perhaps I'm just not cut out for spirits. Don't worry, I don't like wine however.

BrewDog or Williams beers, though... those are something else. ;)

Fender1
12-01-2012, 01:03
I have found that some shopkeepers in Blackpool charge extra if you pay with Scottish notes. Do you also know that the Bank of England charges Scottish Banks a fee for providing them with Bank of England notes. Despite this, I still wouldn't encourage Salmond's ravings, the break-up of the Union or any more powers being devolved to the "Scottish Assembly" ie. "The Official Title". This changed to "Scottish Government" when Salmond's Ego took over. If the breakaway does take place will he become Queen Alex ????

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 01:40
I have found that some shopkeepers in Blackpool charge extra if you pay with Scottish notes. Do you also know that the Bank of England charges Scottish Banks a fee for providing them with Bank of England notes. Despite this, I still wouldn't encourage Salmond's ravings, the break-up of the Union or any more powers being devolved to the "Scottish Assembly" ie. "The Official Title". This changed to "Scottish Government" when Salmond's Ego took over. If the breakaway does take place will he become Queen Alex ????

I agree his ego is indeed massive. I saw him tonight trying to look all presidential, haha. He has however stopped using the word that annoyed me most about the SNP 'tartan'. Tartan tax. tartan tories etc. It used to really rile me, i used to think, shut up you numpty, your making a show of yourself. i used to live 100 yards from where the declaration was signed and up there , the SNP have no competition. But what the English dont seem to realise is that the vast majority of Scots live in the central belt,(Glasgow through to Edinburgh) they have no real desire for independance. But, as is always the case the TV cameras and newspapers need headlines and to portray the Scottish as this rebelious lot that are going to 'fight for freedom' serves them well...and the English believe it.

Added after 12 minutes:


As the populace of most Countries in the World have been drinking "Distilled Scottish Bog-Water" for many years, perhaps this could be the reason so many Anti-Scottish" contributors on here talk so much Sh***. I would also say
there is more Buckfast(English Monks Crap to help them forget about women) in Spain than there is in Scotland.
Dont worry about the anti Scottish contributors..we are not about to join in with the throwing the dummy out of the pram brigade, best to just laugh it off.

dokgolf
12-01-2012, 11:51
I don't think he would ever seriously have countenanced surrendering Northern Ireland.





De Valera didn't believe him either, one of the reasons he refused the offer! ( Sorry for going off topic).

Do Scottish people feel they are equals in the Union? From an outsiders point of view, I would always have thought that the English were the dominant partners. (I've no real basis for this, just the overall general impression I get)

Fender1
12-01-2012, 12:27
Re Caroletenerife Posting about prettier pictures on Scottish Notes ------- Wait until Salmond has his picture on them !!!!! They'll have to make the notes 3 times the size to get all of him in !!!!

dokgolf
12-01-2012, 12:31
Is it because he eats deep fried Mars bars?

Ecky Thump
12-01-2012, 12:35
Re Caroletenerife Posting about prettier pictures on Scottish Notes ------- Wait until Salmond has his picture on them !!!!! They'll have to make the notes 3 times the size to get all of him in !!!!

If they ever put a picture of Salmond on a bank note, then it would be devalued immediately!

Fender1
12-01-2012, 12:41
I never get upset by the Anti-Scottish types. I experienced this in Blackpool when I was about 14. I was called a Scottish B****** by some boozed-up idiots who were a few years older. These characters who do the "Anti" thing on their Fellow Countrymen(British) are purely the Scum of the Earth.

Added after 9 minutes:

Is your name Scott or can you just not spell ????? By the way it's a fact that the Scottish People are actually less mean than the English and, on nights out with English Friends, I have found that they regularly avoid buying a round.

Davie Thistle
12-01-2012, 12:59
DEFINATLEY!!

IN 1974!!!!

we are too late now,
the country is empty!
running on fumes as they say!
this day and age? I'm not so sure.

Medman
12-01-2012, 14:46
Re Caroletenerife Posting about prettier pictures on Scottish Notes ------- Wait until Salmond has his picture on them !!!!! They'll have to make the notes 3 times the size to get all of him in !!!!

And that's just his ego !

Ecky Thump
12-01-2012, 17:55
I never get upset by the Anti-Scottish types. I experienced this in Blackpool when I was about 14. I was called a Scottish B****** by some boozed-up idiots who were a few years older. These characters who do the "Anti" thing on their Fellow Countrymen(British) are purely the Scum of the Earth.

Added after 9 minutes:

Is your name Scott or can you just not spell ????? By the way it's a fact that the Scottish People are actually less mean than the English and, on nights out with English Friends, I have found that they regularly avoid buying a round.

Just like you, I am not infallible and readily admit my mistakes, do you?:)

I think its a great rumor that Scots are mean, then when we go out with folk, they wont be disappointed if I don't buy them a drink.;)

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 17:57
Ok lets imagine its 2014. Independance has arrived and after Alex's first new law of making us all wear tartan on a Tuesday, speak Gaelic, and making the unemployed sell'lucky white heather' to the tourists at Loch Ness. We have to select a National Anthem.
Do we stick to the official Scotland the Brave (i only know the Billy Connolly version), remain singing Flower of Scotland at every drunken opportunity, or do we go for something else? Answers on a postcard x

Simon-M
12-01-2012, 18:15
Answers on a postcard x

We all live in a yellow submarine. (One the English left behind at Faslane).

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 18:59
We all live in a yellow submarine. (One the English left behind at Faslane).
No, we would make you take your ciech with you

Simon-M
12-01-2012, 19:12
No, we would make you take your ciech with you

We will only take back the ones that are not leaking :)

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 19:19
We will only take back the ones that are not leaking :)
No matter, the spent water would be piped south for when they greet about a drought....on average about once a fortnight.

seanocelt
12-01-2012, 19:44
Ok lets imagine its 2014. Independance has arrived and after Alex's first new law of making us all wear tartan on a Tuesday, speak Gaelic, and making the unemployed sell'lucky white heather' to the tourists at Loch Ness. We have to select a National Anthem.
Do we stick to the official Scotland the Brave (i only know the Billy Connolly version), remain singing Flower of Scotland at every drunken opportunity, or do we go for something else? Answers on a postcard x

At my gigs i always tease the crowd with " what should the national anthem?" I do a bit of "Flower of Scotland", a bit of "Scotland the Brave" and say.........."naw, ts should be this. Then belt out "ye cannae shove yer granny aff a bus".

Simon-M
12-01-2012, 19:47
No matter, the spent water would be piped south for when they greet about a drought....on average about once a fortnight.

I'm not talking about leaking water :)

Ecky Thump
12-01-2012, 20:00
I'm not talking about leaking water :)

You should, because on a Motherwell sewage works there hangs a sign that reads....

Today Scotland's Sewage, Tomorrow England's Drinking Water!

warbey
12-01-2012, 20:10
You should, because on a Motherwell sewage works there hangs a sign that reads....

Today Scotland's Sewage, Tomorrow England's Drinking Water!

All settled then Ecky.....It's YOUR ROUND.l..............:cheeky::cheeky::cheeky:

Ecky Thump
12-01-2012, 20:14
All settled then Ecky.....It's YOUR ROUND.l..............:cheeky::cheeky::cheeky:

Maybe Wales and Scotland could share a flag, with a Thistle and a Leek on it.;)

Carol55
12-01-2012, 20:19
Today Scotland's Sewage, Tomorrow England's Drinking Water!


:crylaughing::crylaughing::crylaughing:

tonypub
12-01-2012, 20:23
i wonder if facebook will have a language option of scottish once there free from the union. i think its unfair that there language will still be english.its such a shame there isnt a scotch language

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 20:27
At my gigs i always tease the crowd with " what should the national anthem?" I do a bit of "Flower of Scotland", a bit of "Scotland the Brave" and say.........."naw, ts should be this. Then belt out "ye cannae shove yer granny aff a bus".
well no me, cos im the mammy's mammy xxx A good substitute perhaps. Ye canny fling pieces oot a 20 storey flat, or indeed Bonnie wee Jeanie Magraw

Carol55
12-01-2012, 20:27
i wonder if facebook will have a language option of scottish once there free from the union. i think its unfair that there language will still be english.

Maybe we will adopt The Doric as our national language.;)

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 20:28
i wonder if facebook will have a language option of scottish once there free from the union. i think its unfair that there language will still be english.its such a shame there isnt a scotch language
there is..two infact.

tonypub
12-01-2012, 20:29
Maybe we will adopt The Doric as our national language.;)come on then,write some doris

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 20:29
Maybe we will adopt The Doric as our national language.;)
oh aye i forgot about Doric, that will be three then

tonypub
12-01-2012, 20:31
but you all choose to communicate in english:spin:

Carol55
12-01-2012, 20:36
come on then,write some doris

Lets go fera bosie ana wee bleeter.:devil2:

Added after 3 minutes:


but you all choose to communicate in english:spin:

Well, I am English, so I have the best of both worlds, living amongst Scots and living with one.;)

warbey
12-01-2012, 20:47
A Scots Brother-in-law and an Irish Sister-in-Law is Me.

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 20:48
but you all choose to communicate in english:spin:

That because it became illegal to speak our own language (punishable by death) during the genocide, ethnic cleansing eras


A Scots Brother-in-law and an Irish Sister-in-Law is Me.

you got the best three there then, lucky you x

Simon-M
12-01-2012, 20:52
That because it became illegal to speak our own language (punishable by death) during the genocide, ethnic cleansing eras




That's another crap job we can put down to Westminster then :)

Carol55
12-01-2012, 20:55
That's another crap job we can put down to Westminster then :)

Maybe it was "crap" sent down from Motherwell that caused it.

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 20:57
That's another crap job we can put down to Westminster then :)

ooooft. It was royalty that did it, library cards are free, from, strangely enough libraries

dokgolf
12-01-2012, 21:15
Do Scottish people feel they are equal within the union? I have always got the impression that England was the dominant partner ( from an outsiders point of view ).

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 21:31
Do Scottish people feel they are equal within the union? I have always got the impression that England was the dominant partner ( from an outsiders point of view ).
England will always be dominant because the power lies in London. Who is in government at Westminster will dictate how 'equal' other parts of the union, or indeed various regions in England are treated

dokgolf
12-01-2012, 21:39
If Scotland is not being treated as an equal, what's the point in remaining within the union?

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 22:26
If Scotland is not being treated as an equal, what's the point in remaining within the union?
Just wrote half a book , but lost internet connection and lost it. And i canny be ar**d writing it all again
In brief..see 1980's and thatcher
why do we stay....not right time economically and Mr Salmond is not the man to take us there..whether there ever will be a right time...who knows

cainaries
12-01-2012, 23:01
If Scotland is not being treated as an equal, what's the point in remaining within the union?
Possibly because they get more money out of the system than they put in (please see Tonypub's post number 48 which I'm not going to quote as you should be keeping up!). So you could also argue that they are more than equal.

dokgolf
12-01-2012, 23:11
Possibly because they get more money out of the system than they put in (please see Tonypub's post number 48 which I'm not going to quote as you should be keeping up!). So you could also argue that they are more than equal.
Shouldn't that mean that England should be glad if they left?

cainaries
12-01-2012, 23:19
Shouldn't that mean that England should be glad if they left?

To quote from 'The House of Cards' all those years ago: you might think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

tonypub
12-01-2012, 23:26
wonder what will happen to all the land we bought for plantin trees

caroletenerife
12-01-2012, 23:33
Possibly because they get more money out of the system than they put in (please see Tonypub's post number 48 which I'm not going to quote as you should be keeping up!). So you could also argue that they are more than equal.
Currently indeed they do, as do Wales and Northern Ireland. however this 'system' does not take into account oil and gas revenue, which does and always has gone straight to the Treasury. So may be the Scots are just clawing back some of money that they have kindly shared with their neighbour for over the last 30 odd years, who is lacking in the natural resource department.

EileenD
12-01-2012, 23:55
As a Scot now retired and living in Tenerife I suppose it wouldn't make a lot of difference to me as long as they keep sending me the pension but personally think it would be a bad move for Scotland. You only have to look at Southern Ireland to see what a mistake it could be. SNP's always point to Scotland's oil resources but they may run out by 2050 and I think the prospect of having to join the Euro Zone and convert to the Euro will put a lot of folk off when it comes to a vote. I think the compromise of having the Scottish Parliament works well though. Interesting subject for debate which will run and run and it may be that the rest of the UK might be in favour LOL!

caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 00:14
As a Scot now retired and living in Tenerife I suppose it wouldn't make a lot of difference to me as long as they keep sending me the pension but personally think it would be a bad move for Scotland. You only have to look at Southern Ireland to see what a mistake it could be. SNP's always point to Scotland's oil resources but they may run out by 2050 and I think the prospect of having to join the Euro Zone and convert to the Euro will put a lot of folk off when it comes to a vote. I think the compromise of having the Scottish Parliament works well though. Interesting subject for debate which will run and run and it may be that the rest of the UK might be in favour LOL!
I agree with all you say Linda, as does all the Scottish posters on here. It seems to be the English contingent that want to argue the point. lol. We need a teuchter nationalist to come to satisfy their lust for an argybargy

Added after 2 minutes:


I agree with all you say Linda, as does all the Scottish posters on here. It seems to be the English contingent that want to argue the point. lol. We need a teuchter nationalist to come to satisfy their lust for an argybargy
sorry Eileen, called you linda...who is on another forum altogether, shouldnt try to talk to two people at the same time, sorry xx

AL JAY
13-01-2012, 00:30
Douglas Alexander just put a great point to Nicola Sturgeon on question time,She wants to delay it for 2 years!!!

He said " Its like a doctor finding a cure for a patient but saying but im not going to prescribe it for 2 years! Do it NOW!!!

Nicola Sturgeon garbled on to the amusement of the audience. I am English but ive been to St Enoch Sq and stayed in Dumbarton rd :D :bootyshake::tiphat::whistle:


*legs it back over the border* :wave:

caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 00:41
Douglas Alexander just put a great point to Nicola Sturgeon on question time,She wants to delay it for 2 years!!!

He said " Its like a doctor finding a cure for a patient but saying but im not going to prescribe it for 2 years! Do it NOW!!!

Nicola Sturgeon garbled on to the amusement of the audience. I am English but ive been to St Enoch Sq and stayed in Dumbarton rd :D :bootyshake::tiphat::whistle:


*legs it back over the border* :wave:
well Al, if you have survived St Enoch Sq..then you deserve to live. Only saw from the middle of the debate, thought Paddy made most sense, typical LIb, having a go at both of them haha

AL JAY
13-01-2012, 00:50
well Al, if you have survived St Enoch Sq..then you deserve to live. Only saw from the middle of the debate, thought Paddy made most sense, typical LIb, having a go at both of them haha

Thank God for that ... *Swigs wee dram* xx

caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 00:54
Thank God for that ... *Swigs wee dram* xx
Might set the dug on ye though:tongue:

AL JAY
13-01-2012, 01:06
Might set the dug on ye though:tongue:

Eeeek :raspberry: :wink2:

beerfan
13-01-2012, 01:58
He said " Its like a doctor finding a cure for a patient but saying but im not going to prescribe it for 2 years! Do it NOW!!!

The Ess Enn Pee are looking more and more ludicrous with this farrago by the day. They should either pee or get off the pot.

Added after 5 minutes:


Do Scottish people feel they are equal within the union? I have always got the impression that England was the dominant partner ( from an outsiders point of view ).

It's difficult to see how you could prevent that really considering that England makes up 83.8% of the UK's population.

caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 02:07
The Ess Enn Pee are looking more and more ludicrous with this farrago by the day. They should either pee or get off the pot.

Added after 5 minutes:



It's difficult to see how you could prevent that really considering that England makes up 83.8% of the UK's population.

It was always the SNP's intention to hold the referendum to coincide with the anniversary, seems he has had his way

Fender1
13-01-2012, 02:09
Just Pee Off would be more satisfactory !!!! Salmond couldn't hack it when he was an MP at Westminster so came back to the Scottish Assembly. Having done this he continued to claim his Westminster salary as well as the Scottish Parliament one. At the time he said one of them was being donated to the "Futures Fund", for whose future was never explained --- same as his policies for his wonderful vision of Scotland's broken away future. A-Z of Music "The Partys Over" ----- Lonnie Donegan.

seanocelt
13-01-2012, 07:08
[QUOTE=beerfan;135582]The Ess Enn Pee are looking more and more ludicrous with this farrago by the day. They should either pee or get off the pot.

Added after 5 minutes:




Your reply to Dokgolf qualifies in a few words, what an entire novel could not portray. The population % might just depict how far you can see. Its been the same numbers for a long time, are ye blind man? We dinae care what the numbers are. We will vote against independance probably. But , My God, you could sway a few of us to say "to hell with it." Such annoying arrogance.
In answer to your question Dokgolf.....naw, we dont feel equal, never have.

Beerfan,............... you hijack many threads , you are great at the "quote" thing, but, could you cross the border and quote THAT? Alba Go Bragh, even though i doubt we will vote for independance and i think it would be a mistake. But ye dinae half mak us fancy it.

beerfan
13-01-2012, 09:55
Your reply to Dokgolf qualifies in a few words, what an entire novel could not portray. The population % might just depict how far you can see. Its been the same numbers for a long time, are ye blind man? We dinae care what the numbers are.

You might think it's arrogant but it's obvious really that the greatest part of a country will be the one that is considered dominant as they have all the political and financial power (and really, it's not even England that is considered dominant in terms of financial and political power so much as the South East). They don't call it the "Celtic fringe" for nothing I'm afraid.

If the three other regions of the UK were more evenly matched then it would make things more equal and the Celtic parts of the UK would feel much less unequal.. The South East is really subsidising the much of the rest of the country more or less (I'm not from there). I'm sure it's largely the same in other countries too in that they might be de jure equal but the smaller regions that are considered some distance away from the main population centres never feeling truly equal on a real-life basis. I suspect that modern-day Germany is very much like that?

Oh, and if you want to do the multiple comment thing? See those speechmarks next to the reply with quote button? Click those whenever you want to reply to more than one person. It doesn't work if you want to reply to people across different forum pages though. If you want to do that, you'll have to cut and paste the quotes from different pages into one long box. :)

dokgolf
13-01-2012, 11:02
As a Scot now retired and living in Tenerife I suppose it wouldn't make a lot of difference to me as long as they keep sending me the pension but personally think it would be a bad move for Scotland. You only have to look at Southern Ireland to see what a mistake it could be. SNP's always point to Scotland's oil resources but they may run out by 2050 and I think the prospect of having to join the Euro Zone and convert to the Euro will put a lot of folk off when it comes to a vote. I think the compromise of having the Scottish Parliament works well though. Interesting subject for debate which will run and run and it may be that the rest of the UK might be in favour LOL!

Excuse me???????? The term "Little England" is springing to mind!

caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 11:06
Yes sean, very arrogant, but then so was Cameron, thinking he could didctate when another country should decide such a thing. I think he would love us to go personally, but cant stomach the thought of losing a bit more of the dwindling empire under his watch. He back peddled on it quick enough though, haha. The SNP should front some decent candidates such as Billy Connolly and Rab C Nesbitt. Free haggis and a signed photo of Nessie for all those who get off their ar** to vote, at least we could have a laugh

Added after 2 minutes:


Excuse me???????? The term "Little England" is springing to mind!

They might be skint, but I cant remember seeing the Irish smashing shop windows and burning their own neighbourhoods in the name of greed

Simon-M
13-01-2012, 11:29
They might be skint, but I cant remember seeing the Irish smashing shop windows and burning their own neighbourhoods in the name of greed

That's right... the Irish are without sin :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Dublin_riots

Foot Locker lost a few pairs of sneekers.

Oh...but is was foreigners :) (and one or 2 locals).

dokgolf
13-01-2012, 11:38
Just to clarify, those riots were planned by "Official Sinn Fein" and their ilk. They paid local yobbos/criminals to attack the "love Ulster" parade, which by the way, was orchestrated to entice such a repsonse. The ordinary people couldn't give 2 s**ts about who was marching where. Your remark "Oh...but is was foreigners (and one or 2 locals)." is crass to say the least.

Sundowner
13-01-2012, 11:41
Scotland and England have been married for over 300 years, if there is to be a divorce surely both should have a say?

Simon-M
13-01-2012, 11:43
Just to clarify, those riots were planned by "Official Sinn Fein" and their ilk. They paid local yobbos/criminals to attack the "love Ulster" parade, which by the way, was orchestrated to entice such a repsonse. The ordinary people couldn't give 2 s**ts about who was marching where. Your remark "Oh...but is was foreigners (and one or 2 locals)." is crass to say the least.

Crass my ass... read the WIKI page. It's quoted there!

I will help you seeing as you couldn't be arsed....

"Among those arrested for looting this shop were a number of foreign nationals as well as locals — indicating that in the latter stages of the riot, much of the disturbances were opportunistic — inspired by vandalism or desire for theft rather than politically motivated."

Ecky Thump
13-01-2012, 11:51
Just to clarify, those riots were planned by "Official Sinn Fein" and their ilk. They paid local yobbos/criminals to attack the "love Ulster" parade, which by the way, was orchestrated to entice such a repsonse. The ordinary people couldn't give 2 s**ts about who was marching where. Your remark "Oh...but is was foreigners (and one or 2 locals)." is crass to say the least.

I was in Dublin at the time of the riots and as you say that the "Yobs" did appear to be brought in or paid for the occasion, what appeared remarkable to me was that the Guardia managed to keep the majority of the damage restricted to a comparatively small area when it is compared to the London riots that were wide spread.

As for your reply to Simon-M being "crass", if there were to be a poll for "One Liner" posts with no real substance, then he would be a outright winner.

Added after 15 minutes:


I was in Dublin at the time of the riots and as you say that the "Yobs" did appear to be brought in or paid for the occasion, what appeared remarkable to me was that the Guarda managed to keep the majority of the damage restricted to a comparatively small area when it is compared to the London riots that were wide spread.

As for your reply to Simon-M being "crass", if there were to be a poll for "One Liner" posts with no real substance, then he would be a outright winner.
........................................

caroletenerife
13-01-2012, 12:07
I was in Dublin at the time of the riots and as you say that the "Yobs" did appear to be brought in or paid for the occasion, what appeared remarkable to me was that the Guardia managed to keep the majority of the damage restricted to a comparatively small area when it is compared to the London riots that were wide spread.

As for your reply to Simon-M being "crass", if there were to be a poll for "One Liner" posts with no real substance, then he would be a outright winner.

Simons patter is rotten, a bit of humour wouldnt go a miss xx


Scotland and England have been married for over 300 years, if there is to be a divorce surely both should have a say?
Afraid not sundowner, Russia didnt have a say when the baltic states did a runner

dokgolf
13-01-2012, 12:13
The riots in Dublin that day were pre planned. News buletins from the day before were warning against travelling into the city centre. The cops ( one of whom was my friend ) knew exactly what was going to happen and who the prepetrators were going to be. The "looting" ( of which very little actually took place ) was done and agin pre planned by local criminals using the ongoing riot as "cover". The reason why the riot was contained to such a small area was because the gardai (police) knew exactly what was going to happen. It was ridiculous that the parade was allowed to go ahead in the first place. Can you imagine if a "love the Republic" parade was given the go-ahead in Belfast? My final comment on this, and sorry for going off topic again, is , just because something is written in Wikipedia doesn't mean is necessarily true and if one could be arsed to do one's research, one would discover this for oneself.

Simon-M
13-01-2012, 13:22
My final comment on this, and sorry for going off topic again, is , just because something is written in Wikipedia doesn't mean is necessarily true and if one could be arsed to do one's research, one would discover this for oneself.

So it's a lie then? Also, I doubt this is your last comment on this matter but feel free to prove me wrong :)


Simons patter is rotten, a bit of humour wouldnt go a miss xx
My patter was in great shape the last time I looked. There are however other bits dropping off at an alarming rate.


As for your reply to Simon-M being "crass", if there were to be a poll for "One Liner" posts with no real substance, then he would be a outright winner.

Apology accepted!

Now, where were we......