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View Full Version : Tax Tax on services. Pay it or save it? A poll.



Greg
23-07-2012, 18:04
There has been lots of opposing opinions on this forum regarding business' being registered and paying tax etc. I can understand that anyone wishing to employ the services of an unknown company would like to know that the company is well established, has a good reputation and having insurance against negligence etc. So, my question is this: if a company that is known to you has carried out work to the standard you are happy with and offered you a 10% discount to avoid paying taxes would you take the discount or prefer to pay the extra 10% in order to help the economy? To be more specific if a company who you knew and were happy with carried out work for you and presented you with a bill for 1500€ but would reduce it to 1350€ if you preferred not to pay any tax would you save the money or take the moral high ground and stump up the full amount?
It's an anonymous poll by the way :)

garlicbread
23-07-2012, 18:41
One reason the economy in Spain is on its ar$e is because of the size of the black economy. If you want good social services then someone (the taxpayer) has to pay for 'em. If someone is happy to be a thief and evade tax then I , for one wouldn't do business with them.

I've voted but you haven't Greg !!

Greg
23-07-2012, 19:01
garlic bread, it's my poll and I'm sitting on the fence. Personally I'm torn between the two which is why I started the poll. Personally I have paid many thousands into the system here including hundreds of thousands in employees social security payments. I'm not going to taint this poll (yet) with my opinions. I am just interested in other peoples views on the subject. I am not trying to make it about myself, just an honest poll about peoples thoughts and preferences.

Sundowner
23-07-2012, 20:23
The options are too narrow! Most of us pay tax but also most of us don't mind a bargain! I have yet to meet someone who has not in one way or another avoided tax on something........have you ever brought something from a Lookie Lookie man? So being a tax payer who is not averse to a deal.......I will abstain........

Greg
23-07-2012, 20:32
Sorry but it is a specific question with a yes or no answer " if a company who you knew and were happy with carried out work for you and presented you with a bill for 1500€ but would reduce it to 1350€ if you preferred not to pay any tax would you save the money or take the moral high ground and stump up the full amount?"

slodgedad
23-07-2012, 22:30
The very same question should have been asked in the UK years ago.

Everyone thinks it's the government that pays for things when all they do is redistribute the money they collect.

Suddenly people are beginning to realize this.

It's not until Joe Public finally realize that the hangers on are the reason the honest tax payers pay so much, things will never change.

Unfortunately the UK spawned a generation of 'non realizers', and are suffering the consequences.

Spain, on the other hand, have spawned a generation where tax paying is something to be avoided at all costs, yet still expect social services.

TenerifeTeddy
23-07-2012, 22:45
Maybe it is different for builders but in my line of work I am exempt charging IGIC on materials but have to do so on services ie labour charges.
Working on that premise at 7% IGIC I don´t see where you can make a saving of €150 on a €1500 invoice, because even if it was all declared the IGIC would only be €105.
The workman would presumably want to declare the cost of his materials, to reduce his tax bill anyway. So unless it is totally on the black i don't see how that would work.

Greg
23-07-2012, 22:49
an interesting point here is that as of 22:46 105 people have viewed this thread and not voted in the poll. I wonder why? Anyone reading this thread must be interested enough to want to know the poll results but won't vote! Strange!

slodgedad
23-07-2012, 22:52
Maybe it is different for builders but in my line of work I am exempt charging IGIC on materials but have to do so on services ie labour charges.
Working on that premise at 7% IGIC I don´t see where you can make a saving of €150 on a €1500 invoice, because even if it was all declared the IGIC would only be €105.
The workman would presumably want to declare the cost of his materials, to reduce his tax bill anyway. So unless it is totally on the black i don't see how that would work.

Sorry, Steph but is a bit naive.

The 'black' economy works all down the line.

If they're on the 'black' then nothing is declared and most 'bits' are bought off the 'back of a lorry'

Greg
23-07-2012, 22:54
Tenerife Teddy, it isn't just IGIC it's the numbers on your tax return, the admin in handling the paperwork, the possible credit card charges etc. Dunno about you but I pay alot more than IGIC!!

Also it wasn't supposed to be a right/wrong, good/bad debate. Just a harmless poll. Don't read too much into it people, just tick a box:twak:
PLEASE.

TenerifeTeddy
24-07-2012, 08:33
Sorry, Steph but is a bit naive.

The 'black' economy works all down the line.

If they're on the 'black' then nothing is declared and most 'bits' are bought off the 'back of a lorry'

Exactly so, the point is it isn't possible to make that kind of saving without the whole thing being on the black in the first place. Which means that the question is disingenuous in the first place.

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an interesting point here is that as of 22:46 105 people have viewed this thread and not voted in the poll. I wonder why? Anyone reading this thread must be interested enough to want to know the poll results but won't vote! Strange!

I can understand why. It is dificult to take the moral high ground, and then admit that you would take the reduction anyway:devil2:

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Tenerife Teddy, it isn't just IGIC it's the numbers on your tax return, the admin in handling the paperwork, the possible credit card charges etc. Dunno about you but I pay alot more than IGIC!!

Also it wasn't supposed to be a right/wrong, good/bad debate. Just a harmless poll. Don't read too much into it people, just tick a box:twak:
PLEASE.

Sorry, I'm a techie by trade and tend to be a bit exact at times :)
I understand where you are coming from, and perhaps this is a better example.

In 2000 in the UK we had a large house extension built, the cost was 30K. The builder said if we paid him 5K in cash he would invoice 25K and we would save 15% VAT on 5K - 750, and he of course would pocket 5K tax free.

golf birdie
24-07-2012, 10:31
saw a report yesterday where the super rich have hidden away 21 trillion dollars. That’s a sum equal to the gross domestic products of the United States and Japan added together.

When you read things like this your 1k seems like small fish. When the goverments start treating these people as crimimals and tracking down that money that is the day the world becomes a better place.

CIM
24-07-2012, 10:49
Unfortunately a lot of these people work for / are best pals with the Government.
One rule for one and another for the rest of us mere mortals. Occasionally the press will get a hold of something and there will be a sacrificial lamb but for the most part the establishment seem quite happy to maintain the status quo when it comes to taxing (or rather NOT taxing) the wealthy.

Jimmy Carrs recent outing was a good example. He stuffed a couple of million into fully legal tax mitigation scheme on the advice of his accountant. The press hammered him for it, David Cameron waded in saying how naughty it was even it wasn't illegal.... The same David Cameron whose father established an offshore investment company targeting wealthy clients looking for sophisticated ways of investing their money and - not having to pay any tax on it.... Hypocrites!

golf birdie
24-07-2012, 10:51
Unfortunately a lot of these people work for / are best pals with the Government.
One rule for one and another for the rest of us mere mortals. Occasionally the press will get a hold of something and there will be a sacrificial lamb but for the most part the establishment seem quite happy to maintain the status quo when it comes to taxing (or rather NOT taxing) the wealthy.

Jimmy Carrs recent outing was a good example. He stuffed a couple of million into fully legal tax mitigation scheme on the advice of his accountant. The press hammered him for it, David Cameron waded in saying how naughty it was even it wasn't illegal.... The same David Cameron whose father established an offshore investment company targeting wealthy clients looking for sophisticated ways of investing their money and - not having to pay any tax on it.... Hypocrites!

Philip Green, no more needs to be said.

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and for those who can't understand how much 1 trillion is, 1 trillion seconds is 31,688 years. Benefit cheats are hunted down whilst this goes on:confused:

garlicbread
24-07-2012, 12:17
I think this just about sums it all up

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/tradesmens-earnings-only-untaxed-until-they-get-to-the-pub-2012072435498

ribuck
24-07-2012, 13:57
When economies get into trouble and the government becomes more and more inefficient, it's often only the black market that keeps things from collapsing completely. The guy who is working in the black market is at least keeping the economy moving.

On the other hand, if someone goes out of business due to taxes being too high and regulation being too burdensome, then draws social security, that person is not helping the economy. He is increasing the burden on everyone else, while the black market guy is supporting other people's jobs whenever he spends his money.

KirstyJay
24-07-2012, 14:50
garlic bread, it's my poll and I'm sitting on the fence. Personally I'm torn between the two which is why I started the poll. Personally I have paid many thousands into the system here including hundreds of thousands in employees social security payments. I'm not going to taint this poll (yet) with my opinions. I am just interested in other peoples views on the subject. I am not trying to make it about myself, just an honest poll about peoples thoughts and preferences.
I'm inclined to sit on the fence too... I would say that I would prefer to be a business and do business that pays all their tax, as GB said, we all have to put into the system... however at the moment, if the government want to take MY hard earned money and use the tax hikes to bailout banks, then they can go forth and multiply.

It all depends what the government propose to do with my 'tax' whether or not I vote yes or no in this poll, and as there's no option for 'I don't know' or 'I just want to see the results' I'm going to abstain from voting :)


Maybe it is different for builders but in my line of work I am exempt charging IGIC on materials but have to do so on services ie labour charges.In January you'll have to charge IGIC on everything.


an interesting point here is that as of 22:46 105 people have viewed this thread and not voted in the poll. I wonder why? Anyone reading this thread must be interested enough to want to know the poll results but won't vote! Strange!As previous people have pointed out, it's not quite as black and white as a yes or no response :)

slodgedad
24-07-2012, 18:49
None of us can take the moral high ground, for example;

You're skint, no income, no chance of social assistance, someone offers you 30 quid to do a job.

Do you take it? Of course you do.

Even though it's wrong, you have to feed the kids.

Greg
24-07-2012, 19:42
"As previous people have pointed out, it's not quite as black and white as a yes or no response"
Er yes it is! There is a guy in your home who has completed a job to your satisfaction. He hands you his bill but offers to reduce it by 10% if you do not wish to pay tax on the transaction. Do you take him up on the offer? Decline his offer and pay the full amount so you can feel good about helping the economy? He isn't going to wait on your doorstep while you check to see what the government are going to do with your money. Do you take the offer or not? It is a real life every day situation that is happening in all walks of life from lawyers (Yep lawyers) to electricians. What would you do. (he may even charge you by the hour while you dither over your answer!)

TOTO 99
24-07-2012, 20:07
If Governments ever learn to lead by example they would probably find that the people would follow.

Until that time I wouldn't blame anyone for taking the best deal for themselves.

It comes back into the economy in other ways anyway. Save a few quid, more to spend on other things. Either way it generally gets spent and a fair bit of it filters back into the system.

Handy Sevy
24-07-2012, 20:35
As other people have mentioned above you should have a "maybe" option in your poll. I think everyone would choose to support the economy if he/she can afford it. If you are hardly keeping you head above the water, if you are broke a few days before the end of the month, then yes, you would probably want to save as much as you can. It's a question of survival sometimes. Don't forget you support the economy everytime you buy something in the supermarket, everytime you receive your legal salary or pension, everytime you get your rent from the UK. So once again - yes or no DEPENDS on your financial situation.
This is why I have not voted. I would like to pay for all my taxes, but sometimes I just can't afford it.
So you are the only one why can answer your question.

Greg
24-07-2012, 21:05
As other people have mentioned above you should have a "maybe" option in your poll. I think everyone would choose to support the economy if he/she can afford it. If you are hardly keeping you head above the water, if you are broke a few days before the end of the month, then yes, you would probably want to save as much as you can. It's a question of survival sometimes. Don't forget you support the economy everytime you buy something in the supermarket, everytime you receive your legal salary or pension, everytime you get your rent from the UK. So once again - yes or no DEPENDS on your financial situation.
This is why I have not voted. I would like to pay for all my taxes, but sometimes I just can't afford it.
So you are the only one why can answer your question.

So what do you say to the guy who has just fixed your car? Do you want to take the discount or not? This is not about morals, it is about what you would do in a real life situation talking to a workman with a bill in his hand.
Take the discount or not. Why is everyone so evasive about ticking a box?

Handy Sevy
24-07-2012, 21:21
So what do you say to the guy who has just fixed your car? Do you want to take the discount or not? This is not about morals, it is about what you would do in a real life situation talking to a workman with a bill in his hand.
Take the discount or not. Why is everyone so evasive about ticking a box?

Allright. I will answer differently then. If the guy had just fixed my new Porsche, I will not take the discount. If he has fixed my 20 year old Ford Fiesta which will probably be mine until one of us dies, then yes I will take the discount.
Even do when I think about what I just wrote, the guys with the Porsches probably never pay taxes....

Greg
24-07-2012, 21:31
You missed the c out or Porsche! :)

Handy Sevy
24-07-2012, 21:38
Yes we do :)

1:0 for you! :doh:

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You missed the c out or Porsche! :)

Fixed... Thanx.

carpenter
24-07-2012, 22:10
I wrote a big spiel but then I couldn't be bothered to start another argument. So I just voted

Greg
24-07-2012, 22:14
Thanks Carpenter, it seems very strange to me that so many people view this thread without voting.

lcbandit
18-08-2012, 01:25
i voted to take the cut at the end of the day if you paid the full wack how do you know that person paid the tax anyway?? cash in hand transactions you can put down what you want on your tax return

Cas
18-08-2012, 18:39
Well Greg, I found this post interesting and I voted.

In my UK business I don't get any cash jobs because my customers are mainly local authorities. Plus I pay all my taxes etc when they are due. Also, I've been working since I was 16 and always paid into the UK system. I do believe in supporting the country and paying taxes but I also feel many government systems are very unfair. Plus I've paid taxes since being in Tenerife.

With this in mind and thinking about all the money I have paid in tax I now would take the cheapest option offered to me.

tonym
18-08-2012, 20:30
I remember a conversation back in the uk, I dont remember whether or not I was the seller or buyer but I asked the guy if that particular transaction would be declared because it was obviously cash, and the government would want their share, his reply was " they´d only waste it".

atlantico
19-08-2012, 19:04
here's an invoice for £1500, oh and here's one for £1350 - which one do you want to pay ? come on, EVERYONE selects the lower bill and turns a blind eye. Not ONE SINGLE PERSON would opt to pay the higher amount. Why? They're doing nothing wrong ! It's the company thats doing it all wrong. Pay the lower bill, and its the company that gets done, not the customer