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phillip
11-11-2012, 13:27
Has anyone come up with a view yet on the new touristic law that is at the consultation stage in Parliament? It is in spanish on janets website and after many readings I am still totally confused by many aspects of it! I am seeing the Abagado next week and I hope he can throw some light on it.

9PLUS
11-11-2012, 14:32
Grab a coffee and some popcorn - http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23-The-Tenerife-illegal-lettings-thread

x

Fivepence
11-11-2012, 14:34
Grab a coffee and some popcorn - http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23-The-Tenerife-illegal-lettings-thread

x

Ha Ha..............:whistle:

AL JAY
11-11-2012, 15:08
Even a top Philidelphia lawyer could not make head nor tail of that,at the end of the day its all about Brown envelopes and is stopping 1000s of regular visitors coming to the island also more and more businessses will suffer that relied for 30 years or more on tourists that happily stayed on well run quiet complexes like Parque Santiago 1 & 2. Yet at the same time want you to stay at some ****hole like Laguna park 2 or Playa Azul complex! No thanks we will go elsewhere! :wink2:


ps In 35 years of coming to Tenerife i have never ever needed the help of a sole agent! Its crazy and its totally unworkable!

Thank God for Spanish Aunties & Uncles :raspberry::D

nelson
11-11-2012, 22:00
to anyone unaware of the background to the new laws, yes it would all seem just plain crazy. The reality is the canarian govt have embarked on a policy to stop the private renters and now to try to resurect more sole agent complex,s because this is what the hotel lobby has demanded. The canarian govt is a democratic organisation duty bound by the constitution to act in the interests of the canarian population. If doing what the hotels demand could be shown to be in the wide interest of the canarian people and economy, then no one could critise their actions or motives. The reality is that the crackdown and now this new draft legislation could never have passed a duty of care process , as carried out by independant anylists. The huge private renting industry could never have been stopped without serious harm to the canarian economy, it was/is too large to be damaged, the sensible action required in 2008 was to regulate it and legalise it. The dire mess of the canarian economy today is in part due to the crackdown reducing visitor numbers from uk tourists. Tourismo we hear are going all out to attract more uk tourists, you could not Imake it up. But behind the farce questions will soon be starting to be asked. The govt have acted like Idi Amin or Robert Mugabwe, but unlike those two they are part of a modern democratic state. Spain may still be in transition from dictatorship but the constitution demands that the govt act in the interests of the whole people. None of what they have done can be justified in economic terms and be shown to be in the wide interest of the whole population. It will not be long before outside parties have to take a look at what is going on as regards tourism in the canaries, Madrid govt/IMF/Euro bank. The govt is going to have to start explaining why it favoured the protectionist policy, and how it thought that that would ever be economically beneficial.
It will be interesting to see what they say, it will be their day of reckoning.The worse the canarian unemployment becomes, the sooner this day will arrive.

Santiago
11-11-2012, 22:14
Even a top Philidelphia lawyer could not make head nor tail of that,at the end of the day its all about Brown envelopes and is stopping 1000s of regular visitors coming to the island also more and more businessses will suffer that relied for 30 years or more on tourists that happily stayed on well run quiet complexes like Parque Santiago 1 & 2. Yet at the same time want you to stay at some ****hole like Laguna park 2 or Playa Azul complex! No thanks we will go elsewhere! :wink2:

ps In 35 years of coming to Tenerife i have never ever needed the help of a sole agent! Its crazy and its totally unworkable!

Thank God for Spanish Aunties & Uncles :raspberry::D

Cousins too! ..... :cheeky: And it's 38 years for us!

Harmonicaman
11-11-2012, 22:22
Tia Maria!

angiebabes
12-11-2012, 01:01
Tio sam!

BobMac
12-11-2012, 18:24
to anyone unaware of the background to the new laws, yes it would all seem just plain crazy. The reality is the canarian govt have embarked on a policy to stop the private renters and now to try to resurect more sole agent complex,s because this is what the hotel lobby has demanded. The canarian govt is a democratic organisation duty bound by the constitution to act in the interests of the canarian population. If doing what the hotels demand could be shown to be in the wide interest of the canarian people and economy, then no one could critise their actions or motives. The reality is that the crackdown and now this new draft legislation could never have passed a duty of care process , as carried out by independant anylists. The huge private renting industry could never have been stopped without serious harm to the canarian economy, it was/is too large to be damaged, the sensible action required in 2008 was to regulate it and legalise it. The dire mess of the canarian economy today is in part due to the crackdown reducing visitor numbers from uk tourists. Tourismo we hear are going all out to attract more uk tourists, you could not Imake it up. But behind the farce questions will soon be starting to be asked. The govt have acted like Idi Amin or Robert Mugabwe, but unlike those two they are part of a modern democratic state. Spain may still be in transition from dictatorship but the constitution demands that the govt act in the interests of the whole people. None of what they have done can be justified in economic terms and be shown to be in the wide interest of the whole population. It will not be long before outside parties have to take a look at what is going on as regards tourism in the canaries, Madrid govt/IMF/Euro bank. The govt is going to have to start explaining why it favoured the protectionist policy, and how it thought that that would ever be economically beneficial.
It will be interesting to see what they say, it will be their day of reckoning.The worse the canarian unemployment becomes, the sooner this day will arrive.

I agree that the clampdown is a total ass BUT it isn't the only cause of the problems; the decision by the Spanish government to slash the amount they give the Canaries plus the state of the whole Spanish economy is having more impact than the clampdown on the illegal letting.

The position of tourism is also being crippled by astronomic hikes in air fares every time you get near peak holiday times.

9PLUS
12-11-2012, 23:30
By the way philip, Angryman nelson was one of those that got caught.

x

timmylish
13-11-2012, 03:34
to anyone unaware of the background to the new laws, yes it would all seem just plain crazy. The reality is the canarian govt have embarked on a policy to stop the private renters and now to try to resurect more sole agent complex,s because this is what the hotel lobby has demanded. The canarian govt is a democratic organisation duty bound by the constitution to act in the interests of the canarian population. If doing what the hotels demand could be shown to be in the wide interest of the canarian people and economy, then no one could critise their actions or motives. The reality is that the crackdown and now this new draft legislation could never have passed a duty of care process , as carried out by independant anylists. The huge private renting industry could never have been stopped without serious harm to the canarian economy, it was/is too large to be damaged, the sensible action required in 2008 was to regulate it and legalise it. The dire mess of the canarian economy today is in part due to the crackdown reducing visitor numbers from uk tourists. Tourismo we hear are going all out to attract more uk tourists, you could not Imake it up. But behind the farce questions will soon be starting to be asked. The govt have acted like Idi Amin or Robert Mugabwe, but unlike those two they are part of a modern democratic state. Spain may still be in transition from dictatorship but the constitution demands that the govt act in the interests of the whole people. None of what they have done can be justified in economic terms and be shown to be in the wide interest of the whole population. It will not be long before outside parties have to take a look at what is going on as regards tourism in the canaries, Madrid govt/IMF/Euro bank. The govt is going to have to start explaining why it favoured the protectionist policy, and how it thought that that would ever be economically beneficial.
It will be interesting to see what they say, it will be their day of reckoning.The worse the canarian unemployment becomes, the sooner this day will arrive.


Perhaps if ex-pat UK residents in the Canaries registered to vote then the other side of this debate might get presented to the local population which, in turn, might have the proposals looked at more carefully.

junglejim
13-11-2012, 06:03
The problem is Timmy exPats registering to vote only allows voting in local elections not the National ones for Mp's in Cabildo where these decisions are taken.
Having said that , we had great support from local Verde Party a few years ago when the Adeje Council tried to turn the Park adjacent to Atlantis & Flamingo into a car park (to help Mayor Fraga's Son's Car Hire Firm as it turned out).
They put us in touch with some councillors who listened to our case and evidence and the decision was reversed !

Foz
15-11-2012, 13:42
Has anyone come up with a view yet on the new touristic law that is at the consultation stage in Parliament? It is in spanish on janets website and after many readings I am still totally confused by many aspects of it! I am seeing the Abagado next week and I hope he can throw some light on it.

Having gone through Janet's site ... I think what Phillip might be asking about is the new law coming into effect in January, where there seems to be a lot of confusion over whether all owners on tourist sites will be forced to place their property with the sole agent. On the complex where I own, we have a legal (!!!!!!!!!!) sole agent operating, but many owners reside in their property permanently or are retired and split their time between their "home" country and Tenerife. On our complex, the sole agent specifies that any owner who places their apartment with him will only get to use their own apartment for four weeks of the year. Obviously a lot of owners leave their possessions in their apartment and travel only with hand luggage. They have renovated their apartment to their own high standards and do not want others to use them when they are not using them themselves.

I spoke to a lawyer who said that the government would not be able to insist on 100% of owners on touristic sites placing their property with the sole agent ..... but have heard that other lawyers have read the proposed law differently and they believe that is exactly what the government has in mind.

Does anyone know anything concrete?

Muppet
15-11-2012, 13:47
There won't be anything concrete since, as has been observed, the proposed law is in the consultation stage at the moment

Foz
15-11-2012, 13:52
There won't be anything concrete since, as has been observed, the proposed law is in the consultation stage at the moment

Thanks Muppet x But does anyone know for sure what exactly they are proposing on this issue?

nelson
15-11-2012, 22:48
its like they have said, if you are living in a touristic out you go. Your apartment is going to be forceabley put to its original authorised use , tourist use. The simple logic here is , the tremendous growth in private renting of residential complex;s would not have come about in the first place if people had not bought up the touristic apartments and started to live in them full time or in the case of swallows half the year. rather than accept the status quo and continue to allow the whole tourist footfall to stay as they have been doing, in residential or touristic, with residents and tourists happily staying in both, this insane corrupt regime are doing a Mugabe/ idi Amin/ Joseph stalin type policy, and expecting to throw out the residents overnight from the touristics. All this to then install a sole agent to run the complex with basic furnishings.

None of this extreme nonsense was ever needed, the canaries had a fantastic private letting industry in 2008. this industry had worked well for many decades and grown from strenghth to strength. All this needs investigation from Judges in Madrid, the type that chased Pinochet, spaniards with a desire for transition from dictatorship to democracy.

This policy is totaly irational, economically disasterous, and wholly unecesary. Madrid fair minded Patriots, please wake up and find out why the canarian govt is doing this. What are their motives? Is any of this within the constitution ?

seanocelt
16-11-2012, 02:19
Sorry but, after disagreeing with you on our (the Forum)'s original thread (to which this should be added), i have reason to disagree again, as, if you reserarch, many interested Spanish and other parties, have interpreted the proposal as not stating "out you go" at all. "Political suicide" one lawyer said. Would you not consider hiring an interpreter, to lower your blood pressure? Im serious.

Muppet
16-11-2012, 02:43
Sorry but, after disagreeing with you on our (the Forum)'s original thread (to which this should be added), i have reason to disagree again, as, if you reserarch, many interested Spanish and other parties, have interpreted the proposal as not stating "out you go" at all. "Political suicide" one lawyer said. Would you not consider hiring an interpreter, to lower your blood pressure? Im serious.

Spot on.

There are paragraphs and paragraphs of words currently being discussed in Parliament. Even those who wrote it appear to disagree with each other on what all the words mean and say, let alone those like you who are trying to read it in Google translate.

The reality Nelson is that pretty much everything you wrote above is pure speculation, gossip, hearsay, mis-interperated and a touch of rumour thrown in for spice.

Nothing is set in stone yet, nor by the looks of it, will be for some time. You can live on complaining about the dictatorship style Government which you believe is in charge here and look for support for you breaking the law and being fined in the vain hope it will all go away and you will not be 30 grand out of pocket. One thing for certain is that that attitude will win little favour amongst citizens of the Country - their country.

What is certain however is that there is a very firm objective on the part of the Government here which is to regain control of the tourist industry for what they believe is in the long term interests of the country. Given you are neither Canarian, nor for that matter Spanish and therefore do not have a say in the running of this country, the chances of getting your way are, it seems, limited to the point of non-existent.

Sad perhaps, but oh so very true.

seanocelt
16-11-2012, 10:53
I hope you dont feel bullied here Nelson. Its just that you keep repeating "footfall" implications etc, it isnt relevant at the moment, we will all have to sit it out for now. Im hoping for your sake the fine is less(than that 30k quoted above).

nelson
16-11-2012, 13:41
dont feel bullied at all Seancelt, we are just all of us debating. Our fine was 21,500 euro, after first appeal its down to 15,000 euro and our case is now going to court.

The draft law is about getting residents out of touristics and tourists back in. A canarian lawyer has said that this is actually what the draft law says. The lawyer you quote is saying that to act like that would be political suicide, you are misquoting him. He is not saying that the law is not going to be about evicting the residents, what he is saying is that for a govt to decide to actually do such a drastic dictatorial measure would be political suicide.

He is taliking like the poor jews in europe in the nazi era, many not able to believe the rumours about the trains taking them to death camps , it was all too fantastical to be true, or so they tried to convince themselves. The problem with the enforced evictions being political suicide is , as you and others point out, the foreign residents dont have any political votes.

seanocelt
16-11-2012, 13:43
"Just when i thought i was out.........they pull me back in"

junglejim
16-11-2012, 14:16
Seano Corleone? I have a stone in my shoe!

Godwin's Law strikes again !

Foz
16-11-2012, 21:59
So ... if this "new" law is just in "proposal" stage .... do we have a rough date as to when the powers that be will come to an agreement on the wording and we will all know where we stand?

nelson
18-11-2012, 20:31
So ... if this "new" law is just in "proposal" stage .... do we have a rough date as to when the powers that be will come to an agreement on the wording and we will all know where we stand?

the wording is quite clear if you can read spanish. many of the comenters waiting for a clear understanding of the draft wording actually mean a clear and accurate english translation of it. This is because they can not believe how dictatorial and IDi Amin/ Robert Mugabwe like the draft law actually is, what with eviction of residents and enforced sole agents and upgrading. They are hoping that when they get the clear english translation that none of this extreme nonsense actually exists. This includes Alotca, who have sat around waiting for the draft to appear for months, happily not trying to widen the campaign or inform the canarian population. Now after waiting around for this draft , they are so unbelieving of its severe proposals they are hoping that when fully translated their is some less onerous reality to it.

fonica
18-11-2012, 23:49
its like they have said, if you are living in a touristic out you go. Your apartment is going to be forceabley put to its original authorised use , tourist use. The simple logic here is , the tremendous growth in private renting of residential complex;s would not have come about in the first place if people had not bought up the touristic apartments and started to live in them full time or in the case of swallows half the year. rather than accept the status quo and continue to allow the whole tourist footfall to stay as they have been doing, in residential or touristic, with residents and tourists happily staying in both, this insane corrupt regime are doing a Mugabe/ idi Amin/ Joseph stalin type policy, and expecting to throw out the residents overnight from the touristics. All this to then install a sole agent to run the complex with basic furnishings.

None of this extreme nonsense was ever needed, the canaries had a fantastic private letting industry in 2008. this industry had worked well for many decades and grown from strenghth to strength. All this needs investigation from Judges in Madrid, the type that chased Pinochet, spaniards with a desire for transition from dictatorship to democracy.

This policy is totaly irational, economically disasterous, and wholly unecesary. Madrid fair minded Patriots, please wake up and find out why the canarian govt is doing this. What are their motives? Is any of this within the constitution ?

What the goverment does will be within the constitution but your scaremongering isn't! I must say I have rarely seen the south of the island this busy in November.Just come back from Los Cris where the good restaurants and bars were packed.Last night San Eugenio was buzzing.The island will be fine without illegal apartment renting although we do need the private villas. The new laws regarding tourist complexes is still on the table and open to discussion so lets worry about that when it appears before parliament. It will not be putting residential owners out on the street so sit tight and watch this space!!!!!

- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -


dont feel bullied at all Seancelt, we are just all of us debating. Our fine was 21,500 euro, after first appeal its down to 15,000 euro and our case is now going to court.

The draft law is about getting residents out of touristics and tourists back in. A canarian lawyer has said that this is actually what the draft law says. The lawyer you quote is saying that to act like that would be political suicide, you are misquoting him. He is not saying that the law is not going to be about evicting the residents, what he is saying is that for a govt to decide to actually do such a drastic dictatorial measure would be political suicide. Please don't compare any of this to what happened in the war.That was a

He is taliking like the poor jews in europe in the nazi era, many not able to believe the rumours about the trains taking them to death camps , it was all too fantastical to be true, or so they tried to convince themselves. The problem with the enforced evictions being political suicide is , as you and others point out, the foreign residents dont have any political votes.

Please don't make comparisons with what an elected goverment is doing compared with the Holocaust.The rumours are coming from people like you who wish to reverse the law which was made in the interests of tourism and not illegal renting.

lapalma
19-11-2012, 00:08
Fonica, where abouts were you in the south of Tenerife when you said Los Cristianos was busy as well as San Euginio being buzzing ? I do know that this was not the case............

Please bear in mind that I fully respect any one who has property on Tenerife and they wish to rent their properties out to make some cash.Whether they pay taxes or not,that is none of my business,long may they do so.

Sadly,whilst this post on this forum has been getting larger by the day,the Spanish unemployed have been coming in thousands from Barcelona to London on a daily basis to seek work !! And tons of work as well.

I think its about time everyone who has legitimate property on Tenerife to either sell or rent out to people like me,I dont care wether you pay taxes or not.I have cash to spend,do you want it ?

By the way Nelson,well done,keep the pot boiling and you shall be a winner.

BoPeep
19-11-2012, 00:35
We went down to Los Christianos this lunchtime and the prom was very busy as Fonica said.

Loaded
19-11-2012, 09:14
Footfall..... Insane...... Hotel groups......Portuguese model...... Dictatorship......economy.... ..Franco...... And..... Sleep

Foz
19-11-2012, 10:12
Sorry to keep harping back to my first point .... but (!!) I think this query over whether owners on tourist sites will be forced to place their properties in the hands of the sole agent is pretty scary. There are many owners on our complex who do not rent out and never have done. They are incredulous that there is a possibility that they will be forced out of their home/home from home. As I have said previously, the lawyer I spoke to advised that the wording did not suggest that. I went back to the community with this great news only to have many owners say that they had heard the opposite from other lawyers???????

Personally I find it all very hard to believe. I can understand the govt want residents in residential complexes and holiday makers in tourist complexes. Maybe that means that any owner renting out their property would have to stick to that rule? Or that any new owners on tourist sites would have to place their property with the sole agent. But how the govt can evict an owner from his/her own property to force it being placed with the sole agent ..... this I just can't comprehend.

Muppet
19-11-2012, 10:46
Despite the panic attacks and bad dreams Nelson obviously suffers from, the reality is that the proposals being discussed at the moment are just as described ..... D R A F T.

Until a final draft is put before Parliament everything that is being said is pure speculation and open to interpretations which suit those providing their opinions.

I would equally confirm that in the last few weeks the resorts have been H E A V I N G, despite "footfall" having fallen through the floor, the lack of taxis and all those closed bars and restaurants.

mmmmmm

seanocelt
19-11-2012, 13:09
Busy start to winter season and its very welcome, some of us are astonished at it. F O O T F A L L is indeed heavy. Also UP is the return to illegal letting, and i can prove it, not speculation, FACT. I do hope these threads get merged soon.

nelson
19-11-2012, 22:51
Busy start to winter season and its very welcome, some of us are astonished at it. F O O T F A L L is indeed heavy. Also UP is the return to illegal letting, and i can prove it, not speculation, FACT. I do hope these threads get merged soon.

you all have to rememember the winter season is the strongest, and of course many illegal renters are still renting. A great many of them never ever used internet ads, they were content with winter repeat bookings. Things may be very different come summer 2013, but of course if the govt stamped out all private renting , the economy would collapse overnight.

bonitatime
20-11-2012, 09:45
The Canaries have only ever had summer business in good times, looking back over the last 30 years when ever times were bad summer business was dire so I am not sure I can acept your comments for next summer

seanocelt
20-11-2012, 13:11
Overnight? Really? Wow!

fonica
20-11-2012, 13:24
Fonica, where abouts were you in the south of Tenerife when you said Los Cristianos was busy as well as San Euginio being buzzing ? I do know that this was not the case............

Please bear in mind that I fully respect any one who has property on Tenerife and they wish to rent their properties out to make some cash.Whether they pay taxes or not,that is none of my business,long may they do so.

Sadly,whilst this post on this forum has been getting larger by the day,the Spanish unemployed have been coming in thousands from Barcelona to London on a daily basis to seek work !! And tons of work as well.

I think its about time everyone who has legitimate property on Tenerife to either sell or rent out to people like me,I dont care wether you pay taxes or not.I have cash to spend,do you want it ?

By the way Nelson,well done,keep the pot boiling and you shall be a winner.

Are you suggesting that Los Cristianos and San Eugenio were not busy over the weekend because I can assure you they were.After 30 years on the island I have seen all the ups and downs.Tenerife looks great at the moment,the good bars and restaurants are busy (the rubbish ones deserve to close and good riddance to them). There is always a lull in November and early December but it isn't as obvious this year.Don't listen to too much of the negative stuff on here about tourism,it's doing OK,not as well as some years in the past but considering the state of the rest of Europe we are doing fine. People who have been renting out (short term)their properties on residential complexes will be fined and will continue to be fined ,you may consider this unfair but maybe you don't live in an apartment with holiday makers next door who want to have fun while you have to go to work.Not fair on them or on the residents.

primrose
20-11-2012, 13:40
Are you suggesting that Los Cristianos and San Eugenio were not busy over the weekend because I can assure you they were.After 30 years on the island I have seen all the ups and downs.Tenerife looks great at the moment,the good bars and restaurants are busy (the rubbish ones deserve to close and good riddance to them). There is always a lull in November and early December but it isn't as obvious this year.Don't listen to too much of the negative stuff on here about tourism,it's doing OK,not as well as some years in the past but considering the state of the rest of Europe we are doing fine. People who have been renting out (short term)their properties on residential complexes will be fined and will continue to be fined ,you may consider this unfair but maybe you don't live in an apartment with holiday makers next door who want to have fun while you have to go to work.Not fair on them or on the residents.

In 7 years living here I have never seen Los Cristianos as busy as it is at the moment.I went to El Kilo on Friday and when I walked down to the Harbour it was so busy that a lot of Bars had no empty tables and as soon as one table emptied it was taken straight away, anybody that says it's quiet must be walking round with their eyes closed.

junglejim
20-11-2012, 14:32
From what I´ve seen in the San Eugenio area most bars have been getting good turns , Kandi lounge on a Sunday afternoon is well packed for their "Soul Session" , St Eugene´s ,Irish Rover all getting good crowds .
Most people in our complex are repeat clients and this year´s regular swallows have started to arrive .
The one guy who still does internet advertising for his 30 odd apartments is solidly booked through next year (and is fighting a fine !).

phillip
21-11-2012, 12:43
Sorry to keep harping back to my first point .... but (!!) I think this query over whether owners on tourist sites will be forced to place their properties in the hands of the sole agent is pretty scary. There are many owners on our complex who do not rent out and never have done. They are incredulous that there is a possibility that they will be forced out of their home/home from home. As I have said previously, the lawyer I spoke to advised that the wording did not suggest that. I went back to the community with this great news only to have many owners say that they had heard the opposite from other lawyers???????

Personally I find it all very hard to believe. I can understand the govt want residents in residential complexes and holiday makers in tourist complexes. Maybe that means that any owner renting out their property would have to stick to that rule? Or that any new owners on tourist sites would have to place their property with the sole agent. But how the govt can evict an owner from his/her own property to force it being placed with the sole agent ..... this I just can't comprehend.

Our complex is Touristic and has about 200 Hotel Apartments and 200 owners of which many reside there with some having bought off plan in 1987. My Canarian Lawyer has said that there is no chance of the Government forcing someone to rent or indeed say 'out you go' to residents. His words to me were that we had bought a freehold apartment that we owned and it would be against our constitutional rights to attempt to change this (unless there were unpaid fines etc) - he also cited the situation in Santa Cruz where demonstrations had taken place against banks who were trying to evict people from their homes for defaulting on mortgages. He did comment on the hysteria that is flying around at the moment on this subject and said this was not helpful but understood that it was difficult to interpret the intention and content of the draft proposal.
No doubt there will be many differing legal opinions on this until there is a definitive translation and interpretation on the final draft of the law but I do think that some people who are in the pro-holiday renting on residential sites (which will never happen) are not being helpful by scaremongering fellow ex-pats into thinking they are about to be thrown out of their own apartments on Touristic Complexes.

nelson
21-11-2012, 13:27
Our complex is Touristic and has about 200 Hotel Apartments and 200 owners of which many reside there with some having bought off plan in 1987. My Canarian Lawyer has said that there is no chance of the Government forcing someone to rent or indeed say 'out you go' to residents. His words to me were that we had bought a freehold apartment that we owned and it would be against our constitutional rights to attempt to change this (unless there were unpaid fines etc) - he also cited the situation in Santa Cruz where demonstrations had taken place against banks who were trying to evict people from their homes for defaulting on mortgages. He did comment on the hysteria that is flying around at the moment on this subject and said this was not helpful but understood that it was difficult to interpret the intention and content of the draft proposal.
No doubt there will be many differing legal opinions on this until there is a definitive translation and interpretation on the final draft of the law but I do think that some people who are in the pro-holiday renting on residential sites (which will never happen) are not being helpful by scaremongering fellow ex-pats into thinking they are about to be thrown out of their own apartments on Touristic Complexes.

Philip, again you are misquoting your lawyer. He is quite correct to say that you can not be deprived of your freehold apartment that you bought. However the new law is going to make it the case that you must not actually live in it as a full time resident. All this new law is going to demand is that you rather than living in the apartment , must move out and rent it out to tourists under a monopoly sole agent. Nobody is going to have their property taken away from them, just the use of it will be altered back to what was originally intended , tourist use full time.

Everyone will continue to own their properties, just not be able to live in them.

phillip
21-11-2012, 13:50
Philip, again you are misquoting your lawyer. He is quite correct to say that you can not be deprived of your freehold apartment that you bought. However the new law is going to make it the case that you must not actually live in it as a full time resident. All this new law is going to demand is that you rather than living in the apartment , must move out and rent it out to tourists under a monopoly sole agent. Nobody is going to have their property taken away from them, just the use of it will be altered back to what was originally intended , tourist use full time.

Everyone will continue to own their properties, just not be able to live in them.

I am sorry but we will have to disagree on this. I have always taken my advice from my legally qualified Abogado who is conversant with Spanish Law and its interpretation - when in England I take similar advice from a legally qualified Solicitor or Laywer, despite having good knowledge of the system myself.
I am going to wait and see what the outcome is of the final draft law before jumping to conclusions that are not based on definitive facts and I will deal with whatever happens then. In the meantime I think I will make this my last comment on this subject as it seems to be going the same way as the illegal lettings thread!

fonica
22-11-2012, 14:29
Philip, again you are misquoting your lawyer. He is quite correct to say that you can not be deprived of your freehold apartment that you bought. However the new law is going to make it the case that you must not actually live in it as a full time resident. All this new law is going to demand is that you rather than living in the apartment , must move out and rent it out to tourists under a monopoly sole agent. Nobody is going to have their property taken away from them, just the use of it will be altered back to what was originally intended , tourist use full time.

Everyone will continue to own their properties, just not be able to live in them.
I would be amused by your ever more ridiculous remarks if I wasn't concerned that they may frighten some of our less well informed members. There isn't any law saying this or anything else regarding touristic complexes.There is a piece of draft legislation up for consultation and even that doesn't say that owners cannot live in their own apartments on tourist complexes.It may be that they are not allowed to let out long term thus avoiding the use of exploitation company on the complex but it will not evict owners any more than there will be laws allowing residential properties to be used for touristic short term rentals.Please Nelson do not use scare tactics and make statemants as if they may have come from someone who is well informed until you ARE well informed.

- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -


I am sorry but we will have to disagree on this. I have always taken my advice from my legally qualified Abogado who is conversant with Spanish Law and its interpretation - when in England I take similar advice from a legally qualified Solicitor or Laywer, despite having good knowledge of the system myself.
I am going to wait and see what the outcome is of the final draft law before jumping to conclusions that are not based on definitive facts and I will deal with whatever happens then. In the meantime I think I will make this my last comment on this subject as it seems to be going the same way as the illegal lettings thread!

Well from now on you can save yourself a fortune and ask Nelson,she will Google translate all draft legislation and let you know what the future will hold!!!!!

Fivepence
22-11-2012, 16:14
I don't live our even own on the Island and certainly don't pretend to know about property rental laws, so I apologise if anyone finds my input unnecessary.

However, don't be too hard on Nelson because I think what he is posting is driven by what he would like the situation to be.
Whether he is right or not, I don't know.

I think he is very worried about his future on the Island and the large fine hanging over his head, which is understanding.............who wouldn't be?
I agree he could be scaring some people but I think he is just finding it hard at the moment.
I really hope he doesn't have to pay a massive fine and I wish him good luck.

fonica
22-11-2012, 16:56
I don't live our even own on the Island and certainly don't pretend to know about property rental laws, so I apologise if anyone finds my input unnecessary.

However, don't be too hard on Nelson because I think what he is posting is driven by what he would like the situation to be.
Whether he is right or not, I don't know.

I think he is very worried about his future on the Island and the large fine hanging over his head, which is understanding.............who wouldn't be?
I agree he could be scaring some people but I think he is just finding it hard at the moment.
I really hope he doesn't have to pay a massive fine and I wish him good luck.

Whilst I can see why you would feel sorry for Mrs.Nelson,she did buy on a residential complex with the intention of renting her property to tourists and she admits to being fully informed about the letting laws at the time she bought.The fines are high if the property owner had been paying taxes on their rental profits (many owners did this).However for people renting and not paying taxes then the fines are too low.Many of these people were renting out at 400/500 GBP per week and employing local illegal "taxis" to pick up their clients from the airport and unregistered cleaners to clean.These people didn't make any financial contribution to the local economy and worse they took work from the local people who would have paid tax and social security. I splke to an elderly lady yesterday who has owned and lived on a tourist complex for many years and she was very scared by the rumours.She will not be alone as there are many pensioners living on these complexes.Nelson can continue to rage against her own problems but best leave what she doesn't understand to the professionals.The lawyers are awaiting the final draft of this legislation before offering advice.

Muppet
22-11-2012, 16:57
The only thing Nelson is finding hard is understanding ... or listening.

TOTO 99
22-11-2012, 17:04
Whilst Nelson's post can be annoying to some people, he always manages to do it without making unnecessary personal remarks against fellow posters.......:respect:

BobMac
22-11-2012, 17:53
The only thing Nelson is finding hard is understanding ... or listening.

If it can't be twisted round to back up her view on what should be happening, she totally ignores it; she's also quite good at managing to interpret what's being said to back up her views, even to the point of saying that you have said things that aren't actually there.

nelson
22-11-2012, 18:15
Whilst Nelson's post can be annoying to some people, he always manages to do it without making unnecessary personal remarks against fellow posters.......:respect:

I would never get nasty and personal with posting on here. It takes all sorts to make a world , and the psycology of some of the posters on here is very interesting. I think it shows through on so many of the pages the way many of my opponents end up being personal and nasty. Sometimes in a humourous way, other times just plain rude. As I think everyone realises , they bother me not one iota at all either way, and I would consider myself much less a man If I ever sank to their level and began being rude and personal.

My own take on the rude and personal postings is that they do that because they are losing the debate.

AL JAY
22-11-2012, 18:40
If it can't be twisted round to back up her view on what should be happening, she totally ignores it; she's also quite good at managing to interpret what's being said to back up her views, even to the point of saying that you have said things that aren't actually there.

Bob i think Nelson is a he,Why would you assume he's a she :wow::fpull:

BobMac
22-11-2012, 19:11
Bob i think Nelson is a he,Why would you assume he's a she :wow::fpull:

Maybe Nelson can enlighten us ?

Some people refer to Nelson as she, some as he. I don't know why but I've always assumedNelson was female.

AL JAY
22-11-2012, 19:41
Maybe Nelson can enlighten us ?

Some people refer to Nelson as she, some as he. I don't know why but I've always assumedNelson was female.

I think a quick glance at his avatar will confirm he is male :wink:

nelson
22-11-2012, 22:18
Maybe Nelson can enlighten us ?

Some people refer to Nelson as she, some as he. I don't know why but I've always assumedNelson was female.

refering to me as a she was started by 9plus many pages ago on the illegal letting thread. Other friends of 9 plus took up the joke for a few posts then got bored with it. You my friend Bobmac, have persisted with the joke longer than the originators, who you often concur with on issues. Even now, despite my many posts on several threads where my anecdotes might refer to my wife etc, you feign ignorance of my gender, as if to make us all think that you actually thought I was female, rather than the fact that you have carried the joke way beyond its lifespan and therefore may be guilty of just being rude and personal.

Having said that , who am I to judge, it would be a poor world if we were all the same, and if you come on here you have to accept you are going to interact with all sorts of people. As I say, the psycology of posters can be amusing.

CIM
22-11-2012, 22:27
Rightly or wrongly Nelson has stuck to his guns across these threads and provides a valid viewpoint (which should be respected as much as anyone elses) from those who own apartments that they are now not allowed to let out (due to a poorly written and only very recently implemented law that few seem able to interpret to any reliable degree of accuracy.)

I read all of the comments and replies and have to say from a neutral standpoint that some of the posts directed at Nelson come across as borderline harassment and seem to be tinged with an air of "meanness" that is certainly not warranted.

The topic at hand is not black and white as much as a few on here would like it to be. So it stands to reason that there will be all sorts of differing opinions. Please try to remember that that is what they are - opinions on a very controversial subject.

Try and be nice to each other...!

Loaded
22-11-2012, 23:02
For the record I genuinely thought Nelson was a woman -- sorry about that!

Loaded
22-11-2012, 23:06
Rightly or wrongly Nelson has stuck to his guns across these threads and provides a valid viewpoint (which should be respected as much as anyone elses) from those who own apartments that they are now not allowed to let out (due to a poorly written and only very recently implemented law that few seem able to interpret to any reliable degree of accuracy.)

I read all of the comments and replies and have to say from a neutral standpoint that some of the posts directed at Nelson come across as borderline harassment and seem to be tinged with an air of "meanness" that is certainly not warranted.

The topic at hand is not black and white as much as a few on here would like it to be. So it stands to reason that there will be all sorts of differing opinions. Please try to remember that that is what they are - opinions on a very controversial subject.

Try and be nice to each other...!

That said Andy I think we all know what the law is about by now and the only reason anyone gets confused is the continual "friends and family" references that can be found nowhere in the law, along with the "well, who's to say what a tourist is" or "when does a short let become a long let".... All of which are covered in the law if anyone bothered to read it.

For those who can't be bothered to read it or don't want to accept it, there will always be confusion because they are intent on confusing and convincing themselves into thinking they aren't doing anything wrong.

Loaded
22-11-2012, 23:07
From my point of view it's like continually been told that a white wall isn't white ....

jago26
12-04-2013, 21:23
Just seen this thread from last year. This month I have found lots of places to rent short term from desperate landlords. Because I work abroad for 2 months at a time my plan was to rent only when I am here for 1-2 months at a time like I do around the world. It seems that legally I am blocked from doing this but thankfully everyone has been ignoring it? I'm sure I can find a way around it if this was to become a problem but I'd like to know what the situation is because if I have to rent a place for a year and have it unoccupied for most of the year I have to reconsider my options.

sunspot
13-04-2013, 02:59
refering to me as a she was started by 9plus many pages ago on the illegal letting thread. Other friends of 9 plus took up the joke for a few posts then got bored with it. You my friend Bobmac, have persisted with the joke longer than the originators, who you often concur with on issues. Even now, despite my many posts on several threads where my anecdotes might refer to my wife etc, you feign ignorance of my gender, as if to make us all think that you actually thought I was female, rather than the fact that you have carried the joke way beyond its lifespan and therefore may be guilty of just being rude and personal.

Having said that , who am I to judge, it would be a poor world if we were all the same, and if you come on here you have to accept you are going to interact with all sorts of people. As I say, the psycology of posters can be amusing.

All i can say is i love you Nelson, you take all thats thrown at you and take it like a men, all you say is what i want to hear, i am holding my breath that sanity will overcome this crazy senario that Tenerife is facing at the moment,"if it aint broke dont try and fix it" what a bloody mess this all is, surely there was an easier way to implement a law, fines , which in my mind were excessive,borderline immoral, tell owners whats needed to be done to make thier letting legal, tell agents what was needed to legalise thier business, not hit them with outragous fines then let the lawyers plug away at reducing these fines, which they all did, my 66,000 fine was reduced to 39,000 and then to jack ****, because my husband passed away, after months of worry about the situation, i have a licence outside my home , which cost 5 and a bit euro. which entitals me , or maybe my late husband to advertise property to rent, whoopy doo, theres no property to advertise, not untill this god forsaken law is sorted, i cannot believe the tourist board fined us this amount and within a month gave my husband the piece of paper he needed to do things legally, utter tosh, i personally think Rita emma Hermandez callero needs to step back and call an halt on what shes doing,let owners and agents catch up with her proposals, act on them , then go in like a bull in a gate, if nessersary, my spelling is crap but i know what im saying xxx

9PLUS
13-04-2013, 08:29
You were the lady i had those commercial boxes off 5+/- years ago yeah? Sorry to hear about that i was unaware.


xx

Peterrayner
13-04-2013, 09:57
Just seen this thread from last year. This month I have found lots of places to rent short term from desperate landlords. Because I work abroad for 2 months at a time my plan was to rent only when I am here for 1-2 months at a time like I do around the world. It seems that legally I am blocked from doing this but thankfully everyone has been ignoring it? I'm sure I can find a way around it if this was to become a problem but I'd like to know what the situation is because if I have to rent a place for a year and have it unoccupied for most of the year I have to reconsider my options.

My information is that you can legally rent a residential apartment for 1 or 2 months providing

a) you have a NIE number

b) you have a legal rental contact with the agent or owner under the Codigo Civil ie a Vivenda de Temporada (short term letting contract.)

c) it will be your permanent residence during your stay.

many Spanish and South Americans rent local apartments on this basis, particuarly during the August summer break or whilst working on short term contracts.

- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -


My information is that you can legally rent a residential apartment for 1 or 2 months providing

a) you have a NIE number

b) you have a legal rental contact with the agent or owner under the Codigo Civil ie a Vivenda de Temporada (short term letting contract.)

c) it will be your permanent residence during your stay.

many Spanish and South Americans rent local apartments on this basis, particuarly during the August summer break or whilst working on short term contracts.

This article by JA explains it better


When renting, you should be aware that there are two types of rental contracts here: short- and long-term, and the length of a rental contract will vary depending on which it is. Long-term contracts (contrato de arrendamiento de vivienda) are, properly speaking, the only formally-understood residential lets, and are for a minimum of one year. The tenant is protected by law to a very high degree, including having the right to renew the contract for up to a further four years, with rent increases at no more than the rate of inflation.

Owners often do not enjoy the prospect of such a highly legally-protected tenant, however, and so short term contracts (contrato de arrendamiento por temporada) are common, running normally for three or six months. Note, though, that these contracts are expressly for a specific purpose, e.g. temporary work placement, study, etc., and not for habitual residence: indeed, the tenant’s primary and habitual residence must be detailed on the contract. Note, too, that although these contracts can technically run for a period even as short as one day, anything under three months will be deemed as touristic by the Government, and this is not something that can be effected on a residential complex, nor privately by an owner on a touristic one. Given these provisos, the contracts are perfectly legal, though the Courts can change a short term contract to a long term one if the tenant can show that the property has become his or her habitual home. This is to protect tenants from landlords who give repeated short-term contracts in an attempt to avoid passing on the legal protections that long-term contracts bestow.

To be fully legal, contracts must be in Spanish, signed by landlord and tenant, and contain ID numbers (NIE for foreigners) of both. In theory, rental contracts should be signed before a notary and recorded at the Spanish Land Registry (Registro de la Propiedad), but the reality is often much more informal. Along with the contract you should get an inventory of items in the property, and the condition they are in. Check these thoroughly, because if there is any discrepancy, it is likely to involve a deduction from your deposit when you leave. If there are any marks or damages, particularly if these are not specified in the inventory, take photographs, and resolve the issue as early as possible rather than waiting until you vacate.