View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Tom & Sharon
23-12-2011, 10:21
Yes indeed, the Arab spring, polish activists , the passing of king Jong il and the fall of communism are all comparable to the plight of Nelson and the owners on sur y sol and el mirador.
I'm surprised you didnt mention sister rosa Lee parks, Ann Frank and the children of darfur in your monologue too.
Felt a bit braveheart at the end too
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::bowdown::bowd own:
For those of you who have said that there are no laws like this in the UK, I've just been watching BBC TV and there was an interesting article on Rip-Off Britain about holiday homes in the UK.
Apparently there are 2 classifications of holiday homes in the UK which are licensed by the local authorities - residential and non-residential.
These actually cause a slightly different version of this problem with illegal letting; people have been sold properties on non-residential sites as residential homes and then discovered that you CAN'T live permanently in a non-residential property - you can only live in it for a fixed number of months, usually 8 or 10.
I bet Franco got the blame for the situation - no? oh well.
But this really does focus attention on the crux of the issue. Almost every country in the world has laws of some kind or another controlling their touristic offers. If you don't like them and don't agree with them, or they don't suit your particular circumstances then you don't invest your life savings in them and most certainly you do take sound advice.
Again, this is not to say that the Canarian version of laws governing the touristic offer is right or wrong, but anyone thinking the Canarians are alone in their wish to control letting and that they will get the law here changed significantly is not facing reality.
Nelson? ...
I like this ad on holiday lettings he oobviously doesnt give a duck bout illegal letting:eyebrows:
You are contacting
Donald Duck
Landline +34 0 Number removed
Mobile n/a
Languages spoken
English
Just a thought would you rent from someone calling themself Donald Duck David
Peterrayner
23-12-2011, 12:16
Spanish mobile number
but its still taking a big risk ???
carolethatch
23-12-2011, 12:57
Peter, you know this person.
moonlighter
23-12-2011, 13:01
And it's not necessarily a 'he' :whistle:
Peterrayner
23-12-2011, 13:39
And it's not necessarily a 'he' :whistle:
def not a "he"
Peter, you know this person.
... with two apartments in a well know Residential complex ... am I mistaken that this person has already been fined ???
jogger321
23-12-2011, 14:21
... with two apartments in a well know Residential complex ... am I mistaken that this person has already been fined ???
It's a typo in the ad. When I phoned the mobile number given somebody answered the phone called Daisy Duck.
This is turning into a mickey mouse thread
Have just read the front page of the "Tenerife Weeky.
Looks like the lawyers are going to do very well out of this. One inparticular has had a web site for many years advising owners of the legallities relating to renting apartments in Tenerife and states the level of fines imposed to those that do not abide by them, now he is going to defend those that previously ignored his advice. Guess he will be having a great Christmas. :spin:
will this have any effect on tourists who rent these apartments in residental complex's,
and how do you know if the apartment is legal to rent or not.
yes it will. Owners of apartments on Residential complexes are not allowed to let to tourists.
And owners on tourist complexes are allowed to let provided they are registered with the sole agent who should have 50%+1 of the properties. Those who are not with the sole agent must either sign up or sell or stop letting.
will this have any effect on tourists who rent these apartments in residental complex's,
and how do you know if the apartment is legal to rent or not.
Legally the tourist is not affected, it is a problem for the owner. On a practical note, I would not advise paying a large booking fee for a stay that is say, 12 months, away for fear the owner may be forced by circumstances to stop letting or to sell on.
Ask the owner if he is registered with the Tourist Board - only apartments in Touristic complexes can be so registered. We have published links here before to the lists of complexes in Arona and Adeje that are Touristic - if you have somewhere in mind, you can always ask us again about this rather than have to plough through all the 200 plus pages of this thread :)
Those who are not with the sole agent must either sign up or sell or stop letting.
Think I may treat myself to couple of apartments next year!
jogger321
23-12-2011, 17:36
Think I may treat myself to couple of apartments next year!
I think you may be proven correct..If indeed there are large numbers renting to holiday makers on residential sites relying on rental income to pay the mortgage and this ceases then I guess the alternative is to sell up which potentially could cause a big drop in prices.
I've just been reading about a case in the Uk where a motorist was stopped by the police because of "erratic driving" ... he was doing 35 in a 30 limit, he was breathalised and found to be over the limit, he was driving without insurance on a provisional licence. He got fined 4,500 pounds. Compare that to someone letting their holiday home on a touristic site, having paid all their income tax but not through the sole agent, incurring a fine of 18,000€ !!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it me or are these fines totally unrelated to the extent of the crime??? Surely for a crime warranting such a large fine should result in a prison term!!! I find the entire thing baffling!! Given the fact that the law was not imposed for the last 15 years or so, would it not have been more correct to issue a warning of wrong doing resulting in a fine if the warning were not headed? I know people argue that the villainous apartment owners knew they were doing wrong .... but a lot "believed" they were not. If you took a short cut across a farmers land every day for 15 years and he never said a word ... then one morning he called the police and you were charged with trespassing .... how would you feel???
is it not enough warning to announce that inspectors re going to go around ?
Then a lot of people on here continued to warn everyone.
a few said nothing will happen.
things happened
people wondered why there was no warning.......
To be honest ... I don't think so no!! Had the inspectors sent a letter to every community administrator to warn that the law was going to be imposed as of a date in say 6 months time ... then the community administrator could have forwarded the letter on to all owners and anyone not complying with the law after that date could incur a fine. Just seems a more "correct" way of doing things, given the fact that the law had laid dormant for so long. I appreciate this is not how things are done out here, but the fact is that there are still many owners blissfully unaware of the extent of the risk they are taking ... and in some cases they are unaware that they are taking any risk at all!!
I know you are in a position where you have always run your agency correctly and all this must be unbelievably frustrating for you .... but many owners would have happily signed up with the sole agent on their complex had they understood the implications of not doing so.
I've been telling people on here for 15 years about this law and I only finally got through to one owner last week by literally printing off 20 fines, giving her yet another covering letter, and enclosing a letter from a local lawyer backing it up, AND proving her current management agent had been putting clients in without her knowledge .
After all that she was still skeptical but has agreed to sign up
yes it will. Owners of apartments on Residential complexes are not allowed to let to tourists.
And owners on tourist complexes are allowed to let provided they are registered with the sole agent who should have 50%+1 of the properties. Those who are not with the sole agent must either sign up or sell or stop letting.
Loaded,
What if someone had a apartment on your complex and wanted to do a long let (6 or 12 months) how would they pay you for that or can't they do a long let?
I've been telling people on here for 15 years about this law and I only finally got through to one owner last week by literally printing off 20 fines, giving her yet another covering letter, and enclosing a letter from a local lawyer backing it up, AND proving her current management agent had been putting clients in without her knowledge .
After all that she was still skeptical but has agreed to sign up
The agent who held the exploitation licence on our complex never said anything to anyone .... even at the AGMs!!!!!!!!!
Loaded,
What if someone had a apartment on your complex and wanted to do a long let (6 or 12 months) how would they pay you for that or can't they do a long let?
They can do what they want on long lets
Added after 14 minutes:
The agent who held the exploitation licence on our complex never said anything to anyone .... even at the AGMs!!!!!!!!!
Yeah to be honest ive not said things to some owners because I know they know and they'll pull the old "family and friends" excuse out even though it's not.
It can be very painful getting through
They can do what they want on long lets
So if they rent out long let you don't get a percentage of the booking plus how do they go on about cleaning the apartment?
So if they rent out long let you don't get a percentage of the booking plus how do they go on about cleaning the apartment?
Long term rental and the tenant cleans :) And no, no cut for Loaded ...
So if they rent out long let you don't get a percentage of the booking plus how do they go on about cleaning the apartment?
If it's a long let the tenants either do their own cleaning or employ their own cleaner.
So if they rent out long let you don't get a percentage of the booking plus how do they go on about cleaning the apartment?
If someone is living in an apartment it's nothing to do with us cos we're only holders of the tourist license.
If indeed there are large numbers renting to holiday makers on residential sites relying on rental income to pay the mortgage and this ceases then I guess the alternative is to sell up which potentially could cause a big drop in prices.
I know a lot of people that bought on a residential complex to not be surrounded by holidaymakers.
I've just been reading about a case in the Uk where a motorist was stopped by the police because of "erratic driving" ... he was doing 35 in a 30 limit, he was breathalised and found to be over the limit, he was driving without insurance on a provisional licence. He got fined 4,500 pounds. Compare that to someone letting their holiday home on a touristic site, having paid all their income tax but not through the sole agent, incurring a fine of 18,000€ !!!!!!!!!!!!! Is it me or are these fines totally unrelated to the extent of the crime???
The owners illegally letting their property are making a lot more money. In a residential complex the rent for short term letting is 3 to 4 times higher that legally renting out the property. Keeping this in mind the fine is, in many occasions, less then a year extra income. Is that really disproportionate?
Had the inspectors sent a letter to every community administrator to warn that the law was going to be imposed as of a date in say 6 months time ... then the community administrator could have forwarded the letter on to all owners and anyone not complying with the law after that date could incur a fine. Just seems a more "correct" way of doing things, given the fact that the law had laid dormant for so long. I appreciate this is not how things are done out here, but the fact is that there are still many owners blissfully unaware of the extent of the risk they are taking ... and in some cases they are unaware that they are taking any risk at all!!
.
We have informed all our communities from day 1 and in many cases we were requested by the community owners to report illegal letting. The profit is so much higher that I have never seen that a letter stopped his business because the administrator warned him.
Santiago
23-12-2011, 23:12
Don't think I'll bother having a holiday if I have to do all that...quote; Spring an Arab, polish an activist and fight KIng Kong.
Sod it. I'm going to Cornwall..
You're welcome here any time!
I bet Franco got the blame for the situation - no? oh well.
But this really does focus attention on the crux of the issue. Almost every country in the world has laws of some kind or another controlling their touristic offers. If you don't like them and don't agree with them, or they don't suit your particular circumstances then you don't invest your life savings in them and most certainly you do take sound advice.
Again, this is not to say that the Canarian version of laws governing the touristic offer is right or wrong, but anyone thinking the Canarians are alone in their wish to control letting and that they will get the law here changed significantly is not facing reality.
Nelson? ...
just to clarify the same thing I have said in earlier posts, obviously these threads go on and you do end up going round in circles.
There is clearly a need for sensible regulation. The portugese model is the one to copy. It needs to be legal for a single property/apartment/villa owner to rent out their property to tourists.
There is no need for single agents to be involved with 50 plus 1 % or any other %.
Regulation of fire safety, health and safety, cleanliness , thats fine. 24 hour receptions, well no, not esential for self catering guests.
If the canary government is reading, and we know they need the dinero, why not charge 400 euro per apartment per year to permit tourist letting?
I do not advocate a free for all, just can not understand why you can justify 50 plus 1 as sensible or necesary.
junglejim
23-12-2011, 23:50
just to clarify the same thing I have said in earlier posts, obviously these threads go on and you do end up going round in circles.
There is clearly a need for sensible regulation. The portugese model is the one to copy. It needs to be legal for a single property/apartment/villa owner to rent out their property to tourists.
There is no need for single agents to be involved with 50 plus 1 % or any other %.
Regulation of fire safety, health and safety, cleanliness , thats fine. 24 hour receptions, well no, not esential for self catering guests.
If the canary government is reading, and we know they need the dinero, why not charge 400 euro per apartment per year to permit tourist letting?
I do not advocate a free for all, just can not understand why you can justify 50 plus 1 as sensible or necesary.
Have you been reading Don Quixote ?
Have you been reading Don Quixote ?
of course if somebody wants to engage an agent to let their property, well yes, thats fine also, thats their free choice if they dont want all the hassle of property letting.
But what is not needed ,and in my opinion will not be around much longer, is the monopoly single agent system, with the hotel style requirement for 24 hour reception.
nelson hows your fine situation going have you appealed yet?
nelson hows your fine situation going have to appealed yet?
got appeal in with our tenerife lawyer, all thanks to my friend in tenerife who saw our fine on bolutin. we had to be quick to get power of attorney sorted in uk and down to tenerife in time. Just a waiting game now for appeal, the first ones have a 20% reduction, so worth lawyers charges. Thats just the first stage ,next one is court challenge, as you know the moviemento is growing, all will come right in the end.
Do you think the courts will quash the fines ?
Do you think the courts will quash the fines ?
its difficult to say really as regards the spanish courts. As many other posters have pointed out, comparing with uk experience, all this is just alice in wonderland stuff from start to finish. We have the unfair law that has been dormant for 15 years, then the big crackdown. Huge out of proportion fines, with no warning or request for compliance.
No brit can begin to understand why the canary law works like that at all, I have expalined a bit of cultural historical difference on here before to try to point to explanations for this.
Regardless of the canary /spanish courts rulings it will ultimatley be decided in europe, so if other countries do not have 50 plus 1 , I can not see this incredible mess not being sorted favourable at that point.
The other factor may be canarian opposition, as restuarants,shops,taxis etc realise that they need all these guests for their daily bread, that appears to be happening down there now.
At the end of the day , the canarys need the clients,all of them ,and apartments give more trade to restaurants and taxis.
I agree with you Nelson reguarding the 50+ 1 rule being the achiles heel.It is so open to abuse,what if ,in a small apartment block,the sole letting agent,either themselves or their family own enough of the apts to influence the voting,could this happen??
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 09:27
Have you been reading Don Quixote ?
Did he play for Celtic JJ ??
The Sole agents is the way to go in Touristic complexes
The 50% + 1 is a fair way to determine a majority
Whats the alternative?
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 09:52
Have you been reading Don Quixote ?
Did he play for Celtic JJ ??
Added after 18 minutes:
is it not enough warning to announce that inspectors re going to go around ?
Then a lot of people on here continued to warn everyone.
a few said nothing will happen.
things happened
people wondered why there was no warning.......
I think the thing that gets me most is the fact government made no attempt to enforce the law in 15 years and knowingly allowed the law to be broken whilst raking in millions & millions of euros on property sales etc. I for one will have to review if we can get apartments in Tenerife that fulfill our requirements and as I have stated before most of the Touristic apartments available are just not for me I have done the Butlins type thing in the past but not anymore. Don't supose they will concern themselves too much about loosing a baldy heided wee Scotsman but then again I don't really care whether I spend my money here or elsewhere, this year at new year week between flights & accomodation etc etc I will spend around 8500 euros money I will not spend again in Tenerife if I cannot find the type of accommodation I want I will not be alone. Only time will tell if it is a good or bad thing for Tenerife.
Added after 2 minutes:
The Sole agents is the way to go in Touristic complexes
The 50% + 1 is a fair way to determine a majority
Whats the alternative?
Go down the Portugese type route or invite the big holiday companies back to run them
just to clarify the same thing I have said in earlier posts, obviously these threads go on and you do end up going round in circles.
There is clearly a need for sensible regulation. The portugese model is the one to copy. It needs to be legal for a single property/apartment/villa owner to rent out their property to tourists.
There is no need for single agents to be involved with 50 plus 1 % or any other %.
Regulation of fire safety, health and safety, cleanliness , thats fine. 24 hour receptions, well no, not esential for self catering guests.
If the canary government is reading, and we know they need the dinero, why not charge 400 euro per apartment per year to permit tourist letting?
I do not advocate a free for all, just can not understand why you can justify 50 plus 1 as sensible or necesary.
Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not the sole agency part of the legislation specifically that was legally challenged in Europe and the 50+1 ruling came about as the result?
In any event, why now might a court change it's view on it's previous ruling. The duties of the court were then, and still would be now, to rule on whether the rights of individuals were being breached with respect to international law and treaties and rule accordingly, which has already happened.
The court would not rule, indeed cannot rule (or care less) about the potential business sense of any law maker wishing to impliment any rule. It would view that as a decision it needs to make for itself, whether for better or worse, provided the law itself is legal.
If this ever gets back to the Court and arguments are put forward for the inclusion or exclusion of certain types property, then it is not beyond possibility that the Court may recommend relatively minor modification to the law (inclusion of Villas for example), but given the Court has already ruled on the principle of the law - that of the right for the Canarian Government to self-govern its touristic offer, it is unlikely in the extreme much will change and the reality will be that the Canarian Government will be allowed to (legally) continue with governing its touristic offer in accordance with the law as at present.
As to looking toward Portugal or for that matter any other country which governs its own touristic offer(s), through its own laws, the principle of the above must stand. This is that provided the rights of individuals as determined by international laws and understandings are not intruded upon, then how an individual Government governs is for it to decide.
I will spend around 8500 euros money I will not spend again in Tenerife if I cannot find the type of accommodation I want I will not be alone.
€8'500.00 in one week! half way towards someone's fine :laugh:
Added after 3 minutes:
Go down the Portugese type route or invite the big holiday companies back to run them
Many people have mentioned Portugal - best idea is to buy in Portugal if you are happier with their laws!
A Scotsman spending 8500 ????
Pull the other one!
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 10:23
€8'500.00 in one week! half way towards someone's fine :laugh:
My wifes birthday treat is to have all her little cheribs with her for her birthday in the sun it don't come cheap. But at least some of the money is going to a good property owner in the form of DRI :wink:
jogger321
24-12-2011, 10:28
I agree with you Nelson reguarding the 50+ 1 rule being the achiles heel.It is so open to abuse,what if ,in a small apartment block,the sole letting agent,either themselves or their family own enough of the apts to influence the voting,could this happen??
You'd have to be absolutely loaded to own enough apts in a touristic complex to influence the voting
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 10:28
A Scotsman spending 8500 ????
Pull the other one!
I must admit it was not an easy decision :crying2: :spin: :scotland:
Added after 6 minutes:
€8'500.00 in one week! half way towards someone's fine :laugh:
Added after 3 minutes:
Many people have mentioned Portugal - best idea is to buy in Portugal if you are happier with their laws!
The question was asked " what's the alternative" I simply gave an answer ???
Here's a wacky theory:
Let's say this law gets quashed and all owners can then let their apartments no matter what type of complex they are on.
Previously these owners advertised on holiday lettings etc and managed around 25-35 weeks per year.....
If they were legal they could then enlist the help of companies to fill the remaining weeks... These companies would essentially be tour operators for "private accommodation".
No doubt some people with the spare capital would buy a selection of these properties as they'd be going for a lot less than traditional legal accommodation.
These properties would go from being rented half the time to ALL THE TIME.
This would definitely create unfair competition for the apartment complexes like Paloma beach, cristian sur , Tenerife sur, royal palm, oasis mango, castle harbor , apartments reveron etc (that's just Los Cristianos).
Complexes like el mirador would become at least half holiday apartments full all year round at the expense of the aforementioned .
Residents might as well have not bothered buying on these complexes and would be forced to sell due to the change in nature of the complexes .
You can see Why this law wont be taken out easily
golf birdie
24-12-2011, 11:00
I must admit it was not an easy decision :crying2: :spin: :scotland:
Added after 6 minutes:
The question was asked " what's the alternative" I simply gave an answer ???
Jim, when will you get it into your head, Tenerife does not need your kind or your kinds money :wink: They will turn the Island into a nanny state where everything is done for, no need to think for yourself, no need to leave your hotel, they will even bring Teide to you rather than run the risk of you having an accident driving to it or losing your car key whilst there.
The Sole agents is to put a stop to all you dodgy owners and to move it from the uncontrolled mess it is now and take it to the next level.
There are a lot of people claiming that the €18,000 fines are excessive.
At €18,000, the size of the fine is roughly in the middle of a possible range of €1,500 to €30,000 as laid down by the law we are debating on this thread.
With a maximum of €30,000, €18,000 can hardly be looked on as an excessive amount, especially as many of the people fined admit that they were actually aware of the law when they bought the properties.
golf birdie
24-12-2011, 11:46
There are a lot of people claiming that the €18,000 fines are excessive.
At €18,000, the size of the fine is roughly in the middle of a possible range of €1,500 to €30,000 as laid down by the law we are debating on this thread.
With a maximum of €30,000, €18,000 can hardly be looked on as an excessive amount, especially as many of the people fined admit that they were actually of the law when they bought the properties.
and for dropping litter in the UK;
The average fine is around £100 plus any costs the court awards. However, a person convicted of this offence could be liable to a maximum fine of £2,500 (a level 4 offence on the standard scale).
plus the average worker in Tenerife earns about 12,000 euro per year so this would equate to 18 months wages which IMO is excessive.
seanocelt
24-12-2011, 12:04
You'd have to be absolutely loaded to own enough apts in a touristic complex to influence the voting
Main contributor to the thread is indeed....."loaded"!!
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 12:09
There are a lot of people claiming that the €18,000 fines are excessive.
At €18,000, the size of the fine is roughly in the middle of a possible range of €1,500 to €30,000 as laid down by the law we are debating on this thread.
With a maximum of €30,000, €18,000 can hardly be looked on as an excessive amount, especially as many of the people fined admit that they were actually of the law when they bought the properties.
Thats right better off drink driving in Tenerife 600euro fine and perhaps loose your licence. The level of fines are a joke and the whole situation would never have happened if they had enforced the law from the start this is purley about raising money for an other corrupt bankrupt government shame on them. I noticed Doreen said in a post that this affected Canarians as well as "foreigners" would be interesting to know the split on that figure
Tom & Sharon
24-12-2011, 12:10
and for dropping litter in the UK;
The average fine is around £100 plus any costs the court awards. However, a person convicted of this offence could be liable to a maximum fine of £2,500 (a level 4 offence on the standard scale).
plus the average worker in Tenerife earns about 12,000 euro per year so this would equate to 18 months wages which IMO is excessive.
It's not average Tenerife workers who are being fined though is it? It's the Brits with second homes, sitting happily in the UK on UK salaries, and raking in extra hundreds of pounds of undeclared income every week by illegally letting them.
golf birdie
24-12-2011, 12:11
It's not average Tenerife workers who are being fined though is it? It's the Brits with second homes, sitting happily in the UK on UK salaries, and raking in extra hundreds of pounds of undeclared income every week by illegally letting them.
so its an anti British law ???? I thought laws and fines were based on being fair for everyone:confused:
My wifes birthday treat is to have all her little cheribs with her for her birthday in the sun it don't come cheap. But at least some of the money is going to a good property owner in the form of DRI :wink:
Now there is a rip off.
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 12:16
Now there is a rip off.
But a legal rip off :wink:
Tom & Sharon
24-12-2011, 12:17
so its an anti British law ???? I thought laws and fines were based on being fair for everyone:confused:
I didn't say it's an anti British law, just that you can't say that the fines excessive based on Canarian wages. It isn't relevant.
golf birdie
24-12-2011, 12:23
I didn't say it's an anti British law, just that you can't say that the fines excessive based on Canarian wages. It isn't relevant.
so Tenerife fines should be set on UK wages :confused:
No.
The fines were set, presumably, on the average income generated from letting, which is quite easy to see on the appropriate web sites - circa 300 per week per room minimum. But it doesnt matter what the level of fines are, now or in the future - if you were/are breaking the letting laws the consequences were/are well documented.
If you have been generating those levels of income from an illegal activity for 18 months or so, then you are now about quits - whatever nationality you are.
Tom & Sharon
24-12-2011, 12:41
so Tenerife fines should be set on UK wages :confused:
I don't think they're set on anyone's wages.
Surely they are a reflection of the deemed amount of illegal income that has been derived over the past 16 years.
golf birdie
24-12-2011, 12:44
I don't think they're set on anyone's wages.
Surely they are a reflection of the deemed amount of illegal income that has been derived over the past 16 years.
wonder if anyone in winter gardens has had a fine.
Tom & Sharon
24-12-2011, 12:48
wonder if anyone in winter gardens has had a fine.
If I were an inspector, that would be my first call on The Golf, closely followed by El Nautico...............................
It's not average Tenerife workers who are being fined though is it? It's the Brits with second homes, sitting happily in the UK on UK salaries, and raking in extra hundreds of pounds of undeclared income every week by illegally letting them.
so its an anti British law ???? I thought laws and fines were based on being fair for everyone:confused:
But it's not an anti-British law. According to Doreen and JA (from the TTF) it is being applied to all nationalities who are breaking the law.
sunchaser
24-12-2011, 13:14
I Dunno,brits eh when we are in the uk we moan about foreigners coming to the uk changing everything,then we go abroad and do the exact same thing,why cant you just accept the laws of the land you are in,especially as you knew you were breaking the law for the past 15 years,the people that say they were unaware of the law are just being ignorant pretending they did not realise,they just kept going for as long as they could without being caught,just pay up guys and stop giving the rest of us from the uk a bad name.
What interests me is where matters go when they have exhausted the easy pickings from the internet- where the outcome seems pretty much cut and dried. Will this placate the Hotels or will they drill down further into the notorious ''friends and family'' strata, where the waters will certainly be much muddier, and guilt (or innocence) will be much more difficult (and costly) to prove.
We have an apartment that we use in the winter, and allow close friends and family to use totally free May to September. I know that many people on our (Residential) complex who let believe we do, in fact take payment. The question is if push came to shove would the authorities?
Angusjim
24-12-2011, 13:28
I Dunno,brits eh when we are in the uk we moan about foreigners coming to the uk changing everything,then we go abroad and do the exact same thing,why cant you just accept the laws of the land you are in,especially as you knew you were breaking the law for the past 15 years,the people that say they were unaware of the law are just being ignorant pretending they did not realise,they just kept going for as long as they could without being caught,just pay up guys and stop giving the rest of us from the uk a bad name.
Since you seem to have all the answers why did they not enforce the law from day one would have saved a lot of hassle now ?
Since you seem to have all the answers why did they not enforce the law from day one would have saved a lot of hassle now ?
After reading countless posts it seems to me the only real hassle is to people who have been getting away with breaking the law for up to 15 years.
Since you seem to have all the answers why did they not enforce the law from day one would have saved a lot of hassle now ?
Doesn't matter. They are now. Get used to it, there are thousands more to come, and moreover, now that they know who you are there will be second and even third sets of fines issued if those who are continuing don't heed the warnings and stop. Next lot will be even higher.
I Dunno,brits eh when we are in the uk we moan about foreigners coming to the uk changing everything,then we go abroad and do the exact same thing,why cant you just accept the laws of the land you are in,especially as you knew you were breaking the law for the past 15 years,the people that say they were unaware of the law are just being ignorant pretending they did not realise,they just kept going for as long as they could without being caught,just pay up guys and stop giving the rest of us from the uk a bad name.
END OF THREAD!!!!
Lol
Since you seem to have all the answers why did they not enforce the law from day one would have saved a lot of hassle now ?
After reading countless posts it seems to me the only real hassle is to people who have been getting away with breaking the law for up to 15 years.
Doesn't matter. They are now. Get used to it, there are thousands more to come, and moreover, now that they know who you are there will be second and even third sets of fines issued if those who are continuing don't heed the warnings and stop. Next lot will be even higher.
That is exactly the point. It doesn't matter that they have not done anything about enforcing this law for 16 years, the only thing that is actually relevant is that they have decided to start enforcing it now.
As long as you are letting your property out legally as defined by the law, you are safe.
If you aren't, the penalties are clearly defined in the law.
A 15 year old Law that never sunk in so here's a few 1000 fines to prove we weren't kidding you along
Lots of Love, The Canarian Government
xxx
Can someone please put on what the LAW actually is and how to actually let your property legally, I think this will help many.
Happy Christmas to you all.
Yes Suzanne:
If you own on a residential complex you can't let to tourists
If you own on a complex with a touristic license you can only let via the onsite sole agent who must have 50%+1 of the properties registered.
If you own a villa you can't let to tourists at all
More here http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/the-1995-letting-law-in-tenerife-and-the-canaries.asp
Wow to think that used to take 100 pages to argue out
I still cannot understand why I cannot..................
boredinscotland
24-12-2011, 18:50
And don't be surprised when all the fines are finished with a Mr Inland Revenue gets in touch and asks for some of your income that no doubt people have 'forgot' about to mention,,,this may just be the beginning, where is the end?????
I still cannot understand why I cannot..................
There will always be one who can't!:laugh:
And surely friends and family paying a nominal fee to pay my mortgage and bills is ok?
Added after 43 minutes:
Anyway, I hope everyone has a great Xmas, hope the ones fined manage to get a happy ending , all the ones who I've bickered with - have a great Xmas too, I love you really.
Merry Xmas forummers!
sunchaser
24-12-2011, 20:32
Since you seem to have all the answers why did they not enforce the law from day one would have saved a lot of hassle now ?
Ok that may well be,but the point is the law was and is there, and most if not all buyers knew this,so to start winging now after all those years,when people thought they were getting one over on the government,how does the saying go...dont push your luck.
Tom & Sharon
24-12-2011, 20:32
And don't be surprised when all the fines are finished with a Mr Inland Revenue gets in touch and asks for some of your income that no doubt people have 'forgot' about to mention,,,this may just be the beginning, where is the end?????
Oh what a tangled web we weave,When first we practise to deceive! ;)
R.I.P hughsyb
cheers for all
x
R.I.P hughsyb
cheers for all
x
There's still no proof of any owners getting fines.....
Still hundreds advertising.....
In 12 months only 7000 "sent" fines....
The clampdown continues!
50% plus one rule. Can't understand why some are objecting to this rule. 50% plus one means majority. Simply put democracy, highest number of votes win, get over it.
Looking at it from the Canarian Governments point of view, (pushed by the Hotels no doubt), they want a level playing field. Hotels have 24 hr receptions, and lifeguards on duty, plus varios other regulations. Thats why they want Touristic Licensed Apartments to adhere to similar standards. Just think, across Los Cristianos and Playas de las Americas, there must be at least 30 complexes which could obtain a Touristic License, examples, Sol Y Sur, Port Royal. To run the complex as a Touristic enterprize, you need 24 hr reception, plus lifeguards & cleaners. Each complex could be providing full time employment for approx 5 or 6 staff, who would all be paying tax. Over the 30 or so complexes would equate to around 150 - 200 people off the dole and paying tax, great for the Canarian economy.
Theres been lots of boo-hooing on the forum saying we have been doing no harm renting illegally. But you have been doing lots of harm by undercutting legally let, registered, checked apartments. You wouldn't stand for this if someone was undercutting your job of work in this fashion in the UK.
I'd guess many of the illegally let apartments have not declared their rent incomes to the Tax officials in Canary Islands or the UK, causing real harm to the economies.
Some people have griped that its restrictive practice to not allow tourists to rent on Residential complexes. And the Canaries are backward because of this law. In Florida they have clear separate zones for Residential and Touristic. On some UK caravan sites, the owners cannot rent willy nilly. Some more exclusive parks are only for owners and immediate family. If you break this rule, your caravan can be towed away. Rules are rules, you sign up for them when you buy your property, be it caravan, villa in Florida, or apartment in Tenerife. Always read the smallprint, and don't trust somebodies say so.
I cannot understand how British People who when they purchase their houses in the UK use a solictor and have a full search on their proposed new property, but when they get on the plane and step off into the sun, half of them leave their brain on the plane, like a brain drain, and believe any old pony fed to them.
If I had purchased on a residential complex and found I was being disturbed by Tourists, I'd be raising denuncias like mad.
To everyone who reckons this will ruin the economy in Tenerife, I'd say your wrong. From September to say April Tenerife is so convenient for the sun at around 3.5hrs flight from the UK. All the other places where you'd find the sun, México/Florida are so far away. 10 hours flight or whatever it is. Or pop to Australia for a week, I don't think so.
I agree with you Nelson reguarding the 50+ 1 rule being the achiles heel.It is so open to abuse,what if ,in a small apartment block,the sole letting agent,either themselves or their family own enough of the apts to influence the voting,could this happen??
yes of course 50 plus 1 is just not needed at all. If a complex is touristic it could run just fine with many agents or many individual private renters. The funny thing is on this thread you get all the british 50 plus 1 agents , argueing to keep the law as it is, and hoping it will not be scrapped. It seems to me that the law was first brought in to protect the spannish hotels at their request, from what they saw as a threat from apartment rentals.
The 50 plus 1 guys on here have played the game and jumped through the protectionist hoops , but in my opinion the law was not actually put there to help them at all rather to mess up apartment renting and help the hotel industry.
It makes sense that communities should vote a majority to allow tourist lettings, but 50 plus 1 single agent stuff is just not necesary.
Added after 8 minutes:
50% plus one rule. Can't understand why some are objecting to this rule. 50% plus one means majority. Simply put democracy, highest number of votes win, get over it.
Looking at it from the Canarian Governments point of view, (pushed by the Hotels no doubt), they want a level playing field. Hotels have 24 hr receptions, and lifeguards on duty, plus varios other regulations. Thats why they want Touristic Licensed Apartments to adhere to similar standards. Just think, across Los Cristianos and Playas de las Americas, there must be at least 30 complexes which could obtain a Touristic License, examples, Sol Y Sur, Port Royal. To run the complex as a Touristic enterprize, you need 24 hr reception, plus lifeguards & cleaners. Each complex could be providing full time employment for approx 5 or 6 staff, who would all be paying tax. Over the 30 or so complexes would equate to around 150 - 200 people off the dole and paying tax, great for the Canarian economy.
Theres been lots of boo-hooing on the forum saying we have been doing no harm renting illegally. But you have been doing lots of harm by undercutting legally let, registered, checked apartments. You wouldn't stand for this if someone was undercutting your job of work in this fashion in the UK.
I'd guess many of the illegally let apartments have not declared their rent incomes to the Tax officials in Canary Islands or the UK, causing real harm to the economies.
Some people have griped that its restrictive practice to not allow tourists to rent on Residential complexes. And the Canaries are backward because of this law. In Florida they have clear separate zones for Residential and Touristic. On some UK caravan sites, the owners cannot rent willy nilly. Some more exclusive parks are only for owners and immediate family. If you break this rule, your caravan can be towed away. Rules are rules, you sign up for them when you buy your property, be it caravan, villa in Florida, or apartment in Tenerife. Always read the smallprint, and don't trust somebodies say so.
I cannot understand how British People who when they purchase their houses in the UK use a solictor and have a full search on their proposed new property, but when they get on the plane and step off into the sun, half of them leave their brain on the plane, like a brain drain, and believe any old pony fed to them.
If I had purchased on a residential complex and found I was being disturbed by Tourists, I'd be raising denuncias like mad.
To everyone who reckons this will ruin the economy in Tenerife, I'd say your wrong. From September to say April Tenerife is so convenient for the sun at around 3.5hrs flight from the UK. All the other places where you'd find the sun, México/Florida are so far away. 10 hours flight or whatever it is. Or pop to Australia for a week, I don't think so.
yes, but after the vote to be touristic it would not need a single monopoly letting agent. Yes lifeguards would be an addition at some complex's, but 24 hour reception need not be a part of self catering holidys, thats a clear example of the hotels objecting to the competition from a different type of holiday accomodation choice. A very silly worry over losing business to self catering, so burdening them with a cost that is only relevant to themselves.
as regards cleaners, all private renters have to employ cleaners, they may manage several apartments all over the place, but they are earning wages, so no lost employment as it stands due to that, for the canarian economy.
I never got an answer about the soul letting agents monopoly.Reguarding multiple ownerships.Anyway all the best everyone
Can I just repost this in case it got missed :
Here's a wacky theory:
Let's say this law gets quashed and all owners can then let their apartments no matter what type of complex they are on.
Previously these owners advertised on holiday lettings etc and managed around 25-35 weeks per year.....
If they were legal they could then enlist the help of companies to fill the remaining weeks... These companies would essentially be tour operators for "private accommodation".
No doubt some people with the spare capital would buy a selection of these properties as they'd be going for a lot less than traditional legal accommodation.
These properties would go from being rented half the time to ALL THE TIME.
This would definitely create unfair competition for the apartment complexes like Paloma beach, cristian sur , Tenerife sur, royal palm, oasis mango, castle harbor , apartments reveron etc (that's just Los Cristianos).
Complexes like el mirador would become at least half holiday apartments full all year round at the expense of the aforementioned .
Residents might as well have not bothered buying on these complexes and would be forced to sell due to the change in nature of the complexes .
You can see Why this law wont be taken out easily
My final final comment (this side of Christmas anyway!).
Nelson. As has been mentioned a million times or more already. The 50+1 rule was a modification to the letting laws which was imposed on the Canarian Government by the courts as a result of the legal challenge to the letting laws when they were introduced.
YOU seem to be planning to take an argument against the court's decision back to the very court that imposed it. I'd say that if your argument in court is that the same court got it wrong I am so very glad I won't have your legal costs - even if they were shared between several hundred people they will still be multiple times higher than the fine currently sitting on your doorstep, and the next few that will arrive if you continue letting.
I do not envy or fancy your chances one little bit.
Merry Christmas and a potentially less prosperous New Year
Good luck
xx
yes of course 50 plus 1 is just not needed at all. If a complex is touristic it could run just fine with many agents or many individual private renters. .
Nelson, this was how the system worked pre 1995. Anyone could register a minimum of 2 apartments on a complex designated touristic. That is I could have a couple, you could have 3, Loaded could have 3, Bill could have 4 etc etc etc. Problem was that when the authorities had a complaint, or a tourist had a problem, they where pushed from one agent to another before the situation could be resolved. Therefore a simple solution: One office, one licensed agent and one person responsible to answer to the authorities and the clients. The 50% + 1 rule applies for the complex to be designated touristic, a democratic decission made by the owners of the complex. If more than half do not wish to rent out then the complex loses its licence to operate.
Merry Christmas.
Ecky Thump
25-12-2011, 10:33
Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to you all, now for one day of the year forget about illegal lettings,
"Its Christmas Day":)
Happy Christmas and a Prosperous New Year to you all, now for one day of the year forget about illegal lettings,
"Its Christmas Day":)
I've just forwarded your message to the inspectors...lol..:laugh:
Ecky Thump
25-12-2011, 10:55
I've just forwarded your message to the inspectors...lol..:laugh:
I would think that even they will take a day off and celebrate with their families with a nice glass of vino collapso in their hand.:cheeky:
I would think that even they will take a day off and celebrate with their families with a nice glass of vino collapso in their hand.:cheeky:
Or purring over their Brown envelopes :whistle:
Can I just repost this in case it got missed :
Here's a wacky theory:
Let's say this law gets quashed and all owners can then let their apartments no matter what type of complex they are on.
Previously these owners advertised on holiday lettings etc and managed around 25-35 weeks per year.....
If they were legal they could then enlist the help of companies to fill the remaining weeks... These companies would essentially be tour operators for "private accommodation".
No doubt some people with the spare capital would buy a selection of these properties as they'd be going for a lot less than traditional legal accommodation.
These properties would go from being rented half the time to ALL THE TIME.
This would definitely create unfair competition for the apartment complexes like Paloma beach, cristian sur , Tenerife sur, royal palm, oasis mango, castle harbor , apartments reveron etc (that's just Los Cristianos).
Complexes like el mirador would become at least half holiday apartments full all year round at the expense of the aforementioned .
Residents might as well have not bothered buying on these complexes and would be forced to sell due to the change in nature of the complexes .
You can see Why this law wont be taken out easily
the thing all the 50 plus 1 agents should do is like coperal Jones " dont Panic". There is a big market out there for tourists wanting to come to the canaries and stay in self catering apartments. Just because there are all the illegal beds does not mean that you yourselves will end up short of customers. The world can not stand still in terms of what the canary government wants to think is the right quota of holiday beds. Its just like all central government planning , they get it wrong. Without the new complex's that have come along these past 16 years the tourist economy in the south woukd have stagnated. Growth has come inspite of the canary governments moratorium due to the growth in the illegal beds.
It reminds of the massive growth in ethnic take away business,s in our village and town these past 20 years. 20 years ago we had 2 chinese take outs, no home delivery option. An indian take out set up and the chinese got a petetion to get it stopped. They failed, this is england , no anti competitive laws. Now we have dozens of take outs and kebabs, all deliveryibg if you want. Thing is the original chinese is booming, the market has expanded imensley in those 20 years for take outs.
there is enough trade for all, and the islands need it all.
junglejim
26-12-2011, 15:35
the thing all the 50 plus 1 agents should do is like coperal Jones " dont Panic". There is a big market out there for tourists wanting to come to the canaries and stay in self catering apartments. Just because there are all the illegal beds does not mean that you yourselves will end up short of customers. The world can not stand still in terms of what the canary government wants to think is the right quota of holiday beds. Its just like all central government planning , they get it wrong. Without the new complex's that have come along these past 16 years the tourist economy in the south woukd have stagnated. Growth has come inspite of the canary governments moratorium due to the growth in the illegal beds.
It reminds of the massive growth in ethnic take away business,s in our village and town these past 20 years. 20 years ago we had 2 chinese take outs, no home delivery option. An indian take out set up and the chinese got a petetion to get it stopped. They failed, this is england , no anti competitive laws. Now we have dozens of take outs and kebabs, all deliveryibg if you want. Thing is the original chinese is booming, the market has expanded imensley in those 20 years for take outs.
there is enough trade for all, and the islands need it all.
WRT the number of takeaways , tied in with the number of tanning salons etc.... have you ever heard of money laundering ?
I take your point but lets not kid ourselves that the UK don't have any anti competion laws........
All industries both here and uk are protected in some way from unfair competition, examples:
here and UK you can't do unlicensed taxi runs, if there were people ferrying everyone around all day every day for cheaper than a taxi it would soon get stopped. Thats not anti competition, it's just protecting an industry.
Here and the Uk you can't purchase a crate of beer and sell the cans to passers by or people in pubs, it's not anti competition, it's protecting supermarkets and pubs.
What you're basically calling for is the legalisation of either of the above, and if the private letting law is changed then there won't be a lot of call for apartment complexes.
Why not?
As you've already realised, the tourist board have made apartment complexes more hotel like with fire regs, lots of staff, reception etc....... if private letting is legalised then people will either be wanting hotels for something a little bit special, or they'll get a private rental for a short break on the cheap - this will completely alienate the current apartment set up and they will become obcelite.
It's much the same as taxis;
At the moment you can hire a taxi, or if you want something special, you can hire a limo with driver. If they opened up private unlicensed taxi's that any random person could charge a fare for driving someone around then Taxi would become pointless.
Yeah yeah but what would Gaddafi, Mr Bean, Hitler and President Bush say about that?
I take your point but lets not kid ourselves that the UK don't have any anti competion laws........
All industries both here and uk are protected in some way from unfair competition, examples:
here and UK you can't do unlicensed taxi runs, if there were people ferrying everyone around all day every day for cheaper than a taxi it would soon get stopped. Thats not anti competition, it's just protecting an industry.
Here and the Uk you can't purchase a crate of beer and sell the cans to passers by or people in pubs, it's not anti competition, it's protecting supermarkets and pubs.
What you're basically calling for is the legalisation of either of the above, and if the private letting law is changed then there won't be a lot of call for apartment complexes.
Why not?
As you've already realised, the tourist board have made apartment complexes more hotel like with fire regs, lots of staff, reception etc....... if private letting is legalised then people will either be wanting hotels for something a little bit special, or they'll get a private rental for a short break on the cheap - this will completely alienate the current apartment set up and they will become obcelite.
It's much the same as taxis;
At the moment you can hire a taxi, or if you want something special, you can hire a limo with driver. If they opened up private unlicensed taxi's that any random person could charge a fare for driving someone around then Taxi would become pointless.
of coutse, competition needs to be fair, no cowboy competitors. I am assuming that the indian take out was fully up with hygene regs etc.
The 50 plus 1 camp likes to portray the private renters as tax dodging cowboys, cutting corners.
We have argued that one times many before. I have made the point that small private renters tend to price just to cover their costs, cleaning, community fees, utility bills and of course mortgage outgoings. If they can recover that they are normally happy, they are not in in for profit. They dont run receptions, and I think that receptions are unnecesary for self catering accomodation, you dont get them right around the world if you rent a property.
The lifeguard requirement may be the one unfair cost that private renters are not paying ,as compares with 50 pls 1 complex,s. Beyond that you have a situation where small private renters charge less than 50 plus 1 guys because essentially they are not pricing any profit on the rent, just subsistance.
Having said that there is always going to be a strong hotel sector on the islands and lettings for agents. The private rented sector is just part of the whole tourist offering,as it has been for many years, it is not ever going to take over everything, but rather will be an option for customers. There is enough trade for everyone.
yes but what about the owners of property in apartment complexes with licences? We've got mortgages too.
Thee owners bought their places f the same reasons as you bought yours and after they've paid their mortgage, elex, water, rates and community - then 24% tax.... there's not a lot of profit either.
If you want to make some money work for it or buy an apartment in a residential complex and rent to tourists
But...The free house in the end wasn't that free
x
yes but what about the owners of property in apartment complexes with licences? We've got mortgages too.
Thee owners bought their places f the same reasons as you bought yours and after they've paid their mortgage, elex, water, rates and community - then 24% tax.... there's not a lot of profit either.
comes back to my story about the chinese take out guy wanting to stop the first indian take out 20 years ago. He was panicing about nothing, the market increased for them all.
The original hotel lobby in 1995 were just like the chinese take out guy, worried that private apartments were going to take all their customers. The reality is that the market grew, that recesion ended, and for many years until the current crissis the law was ignored, as the canaries benefited from hotel guests and apartment guests.
The market is not fixed, there are large untapped markets for self catering accomodation , especially in winter. The scandanavian and russian markets are just starting to emerge for the canaries.
We are not all scrammbling for the same finite number of customers. Many of the internet ad customers are hooked up for the first time to the canaries from these ads, they are searching and choosing their holiday from all the other possible destinations on the site.
what is set to end as a result of this mess is the single agent monoploly. Agents will continue, many private owners do not want the hassle of renting themselves. If a complex is touristic then as long as it is full of tourists it makes no difference if there is one agent or nothing but private individuals renting out.
we talk about the portugese example , where they have moved to allow individual private letting. They must have accepted the change after earlier being against it. That is what we will see in the canaries also.
Have you told the Government yet?
Loaded's follows the Law of the Land.
Fisherman
26-12-2011, 19:28
Fyundimentaly,-- there are two very different markets----some people don't want large hotel complexes, -- and some people would like a few holiday rentals---
Simply. why not let the free market sort itself out--
As was said earlier, there is room for all---
If the hotels look after their guests, and offer value for money---they might well come back---to the same hotel !!
Now that I must cut back my holiday lettings there will be less people coming to Tenerife-- less money spent in the supermarkets, cafes, restaurantes, car hire and shops in general,is this really going to help the Tenerife ( Spanish ) eonomy ???
Yes we can upgrade the tourist industry , and good it would be to do it-----but I think this is not the way to do it !!
There's always the legal tourist apartment...
bonitatime
26-12-2011, 20:35
Fyundimentaly,-- there are two very different markets----some people don't want large hotel complexes, -- and some people would like a few holiday rentals---
Simply. why not let the free market sort itself out--
As was said earlier, there is room for all---
If the hotels look after their guests, and offer value for money---they might well come back---to the same hotel !!
Now that I must cut back my holiday lettings there will be less people coming to Tenerife-- less money spent in the supermarkets, cafes, restaurantes, car hire and shops in general,is this really going to help the Tenerife ( Spanish ) eonomy ???
Yes we can upgrade the tourist industry , and good it would be to do it-----but I think this is not the way to do it !!
But you don't get to make that decision, duly elected local governmet does.
I notice theres still no answer to the sole letting agents owning enough apts to influence the voting on said complexes,a pivotal agument used by those in favour of this law,So moving this debate along...Loaded as someone who,as the sole,sole letting agent on here who contributes to this debate, can you tell us how far your influence over your clients is,for example(and I,ll use an member of our forum only as an example). Can you tell your clients who they must use to maintain their apts,ie, say for electrical repairs you use 9 plus,stating the fact that you know the standard of workmanship you will get, rather than the owners getting their own work men in.does your power as sole letting agent give you the right to veto them.
jogger321
27-12-2011, 01:28
You'd have to be absolutely loaded to own enough apts in a touristic complex to influence the voting
Yawn... yawn
Angusjim
27-12-2011, 08:41
A 15 year old Law that never sunk in so here's a few 1000 fines to prove we weren't kidding you along#
Or maybe we are a bankrupt corrupt government who have knowingly allowed people to to ignore this law but we have been given a bung from the large hotel groups to enforce it so its win win for us.
#
Or maybe we are a bankrupt corrupt government who have knowingly allowed people to to ignore this law but we have been given a bung from the large hotel groups to enforce it so its win win for us.
But the fact of the matter is the Law said do not rent to tourists if you haven't required the correct permissions
Don't forget before these 17 inspectors came along there was already a team of inspectors working on it to see what to scale of things were
Don't drive faster than 120 on the autopista, they put up signs and speed cameras but you don't get a police escort for every car on the road
Don't do it means just that...
Angusjim
27-12-2011, 10:15
But the fact of the matter is the Law said do not rent to tourists if you haven't required the correct permissions
Don't forget before these 17 inspectors came along there was already a team of inspectors working on it to see what to scale of things were
Don't drive faster than 120 on the autopista, they put up signs and speed cameras but you don't get a police escort for every car on the road
Don't do it means just that...
But the speed limits are put in BIG red signs warning you about the speed limits of the road you are driving on and when you are learning to drive you are specifically told that there are speed restrictions on roads and they also have ongoing campaigns warning about speeding and you are correct they also have ongoing enforcement of the speeding laws everyday unlike illegal letting that just appears to happen every 15 years or when the government needs cash. And lets not even mention the levels of fines for the two " crimes ". What exactly did the government do to warn people about this law, did they ensure that as part of a legal requirement on property sales a purchaser had to be specifically told about this as part of the paperwork, they could have made adminstrators of complexes ensure that this was a must have item on all AGM's, there are many many things things they could have done but the chose not to WHY ?
jogger321
27-12-2011, 10:29
But the speed limits are put in BIG red signs warning you about the speed limits of the road you are driving on and when you are learning to drive you are specifically told that there are speed restrictions on roads and they also have ongoing campaigns warning about speeding and you are correct they also have ongoing enforcement of the speeding laws everyday unlike illegal letting that just appears to happen every 15 years or when the government needs cash. And lets not even mention the levels of fines for the two " crimes ". What exactly did the government do to warn people about this law, did they ensure that as part of a legal requirement on property sales a purchaser had to be specifically told about this as part of the paperwork, they could have made adminstrators of complexes ensure that this was a must have item on all AGM's, there are many many things things they could have done but the chose not to WHY ?
As you will be aware in some shops they place in prominant positions large signs advising visitors to the premises that shoplifting is illegal and that they always prosecute but personally i've never seen the need for them myself.
I knew at 6 years old what the speed limit was anyway
Maybe some Brits and the like need a BIG red sign.
You've got to be either plain stupid or know exactly what you are doing to think you can purchase a property, rent it out and keep the cash for yourself
Plain stupid.
Are we all forgetting that when this law was introduced they actually gave everyone 2 years to comply and sort themselves out?
Angusjim
27-12-2011, 12:00
I knew at 6 years old what the speed limit was anyway
Maybe some Brits and the like need a BIG red sign.
You've got to be either plain stupid or know exactly what you are doing to think you can purchase a property, rent it out and keep the cash for yourself
Plain stupid.
So you started off being a child genius then became a Sparky lol
You and others seem to think that all people ( incl legitimate businesses ) who have been fined have broken tax laws they MAY have broken the touristic law but how do you know they have not paid their taxes etc. If you break legislation with regarding electrical regulations does that mean you did not pay your tax as well ??
But the speed limits are put in BIG red signs warning you about the speed limits of the road you are driving on and when you are learning to drive you are specifically told that there are speed restrictions on roads and they also have ongoing campaigns warning about speeding and you are correct they also have ongoing enforcement of the speeding laws everyday unlike illegal letting that just appears to happen every 15 years or when the government needs cash. And lets not even mention the levels of fines for the two " crimes ". What exactly did the government do to warn people about this law, did they ensure that as part of a legal requirement on property sales a purchaser had to be specifically told about this as part of the paperwork, they could have made adminstrators of complexes ensure that this was a must have item on all AGM's, there are many many things things they could have done but the chose not to WHY ?
The president and administrators on Dinastia put up signs 2 years ago on the complex stating short term letting was not permitted, the president on El Mirador wrote to each owner advising short term letting was illegal, the local press had front page headlines reference the additional inpspectors acting on illegal letting etc etc etc.
How many times as a child were you told not to do something but you still did it?
Guess people don't listen!
it's not in Administrators interest to impose the law on it's owners in a community. If they did on a complex where a substancial amount are letting guess what happens at next AGM? Administrators are voted out!
Angusjim
27-12-2011, 12:13
The president and administrators on Dinastia put up signs 2 years ago on the complex stating short term letting was not permitted, the president on El Mirador wrote to each owner advising short term letting was illegal, the local press had front page headlines reference the additional inpspectors acting on illegal letting etc etc etc.
How many times as a child were you told not to do something but you still did it?
Guess people don't listen!
Well in those cases if people were clearly told it was illegal then they deserve all they get but that does not excuse the governments lack of action to make the law absolutely clear to all this they could have done this very easily and just think you and Loaded would have coined it in a lot sooner. Unfotunatley the building industry and property sales would also have went into decline a lot sooner.
Added after 3 minutes:
it's not in Administrators interest to impose the law on it's owners in a community. If they did on a complex where a substancial amount are letting guess what happens at next AGM? Administrators are voted out!
It would have been in their interest to do this if it was law that ALL administrators had to do it
It would have been in their interest to do this if it was law that ALL administrators had to do it
yes but how far do you want to go in treating everyone like a child? Are grown adults who knew the law not capable of deciding for themselves that they should follow it? Do they need administrators hitting them over the heads to do as they're told aswell?
Angusjim
27-12-2011, 12:27
yes but how far do you want to go in treating everyone like a child? Are grown adults who knew the law not capable of deciding for themselves that they should follow it? Do they need administrators hitting them over the heads to do as they're told aswell?
Don't think it a case of treating people like children, but if the government really made this law to ensure better regulation of the industry to benefit the tourists just seems to me they did not make much of an effort in the past 15 years to carry this out and its only now when they need cash that have decided the time is right.
golf birdie
27-12-2011, 12:34
yes but how far do you want to go in treating everyone like a child? ?
Exactly :wink:
Added after 6 minutes:
it's not in Administrators interest to impose the law on it's owners in a community. If they did on a complex where a substancial amount are letting guess what happens at next AGM? Administrators are voted out!
I am led to believe if they knew it was widespead on one of their complexes and did nothing to warn people to stop they too could be fined.
junglejim
27-12-2011, 13:06
Exactly :wink:
Added after 6 minutes:
I am led to believe if they knew it was widespead on one of their complexes and did nothing to warn people to stop they too could be fined.
I always thought in Law of Horizontal Properties -one of the President's duty was to prevent illegal activity on the community complex?Article 7.2?
Unfortunately on ours he is the prime mover!
yes but in reality, once you've sent a letter how much more effort are you going to put into it? The presidents job is a thankless task anyway, you'd just get more ***** for trying to stop people doing it
of coutse, competition needs to be fair, no cowboy competitors. I am assuming that the indian take out was fully up with hygene regs etc.
The 50 plus 1 camp likes to portray the private renters as tax dodging cowboys, cutting corners.
We have argued that one times many before. I have made the point that small private renters tend to price just to cover their costs, cleaning, community fees, utility bills and of course mortgage outgoings. If they can recover that they are normally happy, they are not in in for profit. They dont run receptions, and I think that receptions are unnecesary for self catering accomodation, you dont get them right around the world if you rent a property.
Nelson.
You are surely on a wind up.
Let's cut to the chase and be honest.
Generally speaking your arguments are based on private letters not having to pay for certain basic requirements such as receptions, which would include night time security, Life-Guards at the pools during their opening hours and meeting a given level of overall standards.
There is also the issue that the majority of private letters put their earnings directly in their back pockets (often outside this country) so as to avoid paying tax.
All of which is the law of the land in which you own property, yet you argue for a change in the law because, essentially, if private letters had to fund these basic requirements from earnings they would not be able to fund their mortgage(s) as well.
Hey - in a word or two - "Tough Turnips"
I really do not see you gaining much support for your argument at Government level, especially in Europe where capitalist competition might be welcome but on level playing fields.
For example, if Europe can rule about the precise shape and size of a banana which, if it does not conform cannot be sold, why should private letters be treated any differently?
golf birdie
27-12-2011, 13:26
yes but in reality, once you've sent a letter how much more effort are you going to put into it? The presidents job is a thankless task anyway, you'd just get more ***** for trying to stop people doing it
I think every year at the AGM it should be made clear that its against the law to rent on their complex and should also be written it the minutes. Not difficult is it:confused:
hmmmm not that easy.
On Paloma Beach, my mum has been the president for 15 years or more. No one else ever puts themsleves forward for election and it is widely accepted that she has done a good job.
If she said every year at an AGM that everyone had to sign up to the sole agent or stop letting, and if they didn't she was going to denounce them .... everyone would cry "conflict of interest!" as she's related to the sole agents.
I'm sure there are similar cases on other complexes
Peterrayner
27-12-2011, 15:33
hmmmm not that easy.
On Paloma Beach, my mum has been the president for 15 years or more. No one else ever puts themsleves forward for election and it is widely accepted that she has done a good job.
If she said every year at an AGM that everyone had to sign up to the sole agent or stop letting, and if they didn't she was going to denounce them .... everyone would cry "conflict of interest!" as she's related to the sole agents.
I'm sure there are similar cases on other complexes
FIFTEEN YEARS as Presidenta is remarkable.... much respect to your Mum.
Please Please Please Please
Can everyone just accept the following.
It is illegal to advertise and short let residential property,
If a Touristic complex can't get its act together to appoint a sole agent it is nobody's fault other than the owners as a whole, but without an appointed sole agent it is illegal to advertise short let touristic property.
It doesn't matter whether you think the law is an ass - it is the law.
It doesn't matter that the 1995 law has only recently been enforced in a significant way - it is the law and is there to be enforced at the discretion of those who made it.
If you bought your property any time after 1995 with a view to letting it so as to use the income to pay the mortgage and did not know the law, or were "advised" to ignore it, then take that up with your advisor (if he, she or it still exists).
If you have been fined then appeal immediately, chances are it may save you a few euros in the legal fees to do so/vs the token reduction in your fine.
Whatever happens pull all adverts immediately - continue to advertise and short let and you are bound to be fined a second time in due course, and don't believe there will be much/if any changes to the law any time soon.
Have fun
xx
You have forgot about the "Family & Friends" Loophole :whistle: *phones uncle Pepe*
Peterrayner
27-12-2011, 17:08
You have forgot about the "Family & Friends" Loophole :whistle: *phones uncle Pepe*
Its not a loophole ??? Family and Friends dont receive touristic services or come via advertising and dont pay a weekly rent. :)
Its not a loophole ??? Family and Friends dont receive touristic services or come via advertising and dont pay a weekly rent. :)
Im on you're side in this Peter, I was just using my wooden spoon to wind a few up!
Are we all forgetting that when this law was introduced they actually gave everyone 2 years to comply and sort themselves out?
In my mind ... therein lies a huge part of the problem. Over the past 20 years I have owned properties on 4 different complexes and not once have I heard this situation discussed at an AGM!! I believe that the idea of the "community" is that everyone works together for the good of all ..(idealistic I know .. but surely that is the basic idea!!). If owners are not made aware of the fact that they are breaking the law by those very people elected to (amongst other things) advise them of anything that may effect their property, then they will continue to copy their neighbours and holiday let. I personally believed (wrongly) that the only gripe where holiday lets were concerned was the fact that many were not paying income tax on their earnings .... but some of you on here forget that many have been!! It is hard to believe you are carrying out an illegal activity when your president has never mentioned it, nor the community administrator, nor your accountant ... nor the tax office!!! The tax office have been thankfully receiving tax on my ill gotten gains for many years now and have never pointed out that actually I shouldn't be renting out my apartments in the first place!!!! Anyway ... the point is .. I know for a fact that many owners would happily operate legally if they are just made aware of how to do so. Most of the owners on the complex I am referring to are not even aware that we have a sole agent .... they believe the reception is funded by the community fees for everyone to make use of. I have spoken to my community president and administrator and they have agreed to translate a letter into all languages necessary explaining the situation and giving each owner the details of how to sign up with the agent holding the exploitation licence. Once everyone has had the letter and confirmed their wish to either sign with him or not (as the case may be) then no one can argue that they are oblivious to the law ..... or complain if they are hauled over the coals for not complying. It just amazes me that this was never done before!!!!!!!!!!! Would have saved an awful lot of people some pretty hefty fines!
Which complex are you on Foz?
@Peter thinking about it my mums been president for 17 years! Since 1994 i think!
I must be mental too cos I'm now vice president!
In my mind ... therein lies a huge part of the problem. Over the past 20 years I have owned properties on 4 different complexes and not once have I heard this situation discussed at an AGM!! I believe that the idea of the "community" is that everyone works together for the good of all ..(idealistic I know .. but surely that is the basic idea!!). If owners are not made aware of the fact that they are breaking the law by those very people elected to (amongst other things) advise them of anything that may effect their property, then they will continue to copy their neighbours and holiday let. I personally believed (wrongly) that the only gripe where holiday lets were concerned was the fact that many were not paying income tax on their earnings .... but some of you on here forget that many have been!! It is hard to believe you are carrying out an illegal activity when your president has never mentioned it, nor the community administrator, nor your accountant ... nor the tax office!!! The tax office have been thankfully receiving tax on my ill gotten gains for many years now and have never pointed out that actually I shouldn't be renting out my apartments in the first place!!!! Anyway ... the point is .. I know for a fact that many owners would happily operate legally if they are just made aware of how to do so. Most of the owners on the complex I am referring to are not even aware that we have a sole agent .... they believe the reception is funded by the community fees for everyone to make use of. I have spoken to my community president and administrator and they have agreed to translate a letter into all languages necessary explaining the situation and giving each owner the details of how to sign up with the agent holding the exploitation licence. Once everyone has had the letter and confirmed their wish to either sign with him or not (as the case may be) then no one can argue that they are oblivious to the law ..... or complain if they are hauled over the coals for not complying. It just amazes me that this was never done before!!!!!!!!!!! Would have saved an awful lot of people some pretty hefty fines!
Fox Ignorance is no excuse in Law in Spain
If you want information go and seek it. If you dont know where to ask go see a Lawyer, Gestor or SAC
sunchaser
27-12-2011, 20:58
But the speed limits are put in BIG red signs warning you about the speed limits of the road you are driving on and when you are learning to drive you are specifically told that there are speed restrictions on roads and they also have ongoing campaigns warning about speeding and you are correct they also have ongoing enforcement of the speeding laws everyday unlike illegal letting that just appears to happen every 15 years or when the government needs cash. And lets not even mention the levels of fines for the two " crimes ". What exactly did the government do to warn people about this law, did they ensure that as part of a legal requirement on property sales a purchaser had to be specifically told about this as part of the paperwork, they could have made adminstrators of complexes ensure that this was a must have item on all AGM's, there are many many things things they could have done but the chose not to WHY ?
Maybe the canarian government assumed the people buying apartments in spain were intelligent adults not children,and that they would be able to read and understand any paperwork put before them,not that they needed to be told every five minutes no letting,come on
Added after 3 minutes:
So you started off being a child genius then became a Sparky lol
You and others seem to think that all people ( incl legitimate businesses ) who have been fined have broken tax laws they MAY have broken the touristic law but how do you know they have not paid their taxes etc. If you break legislation with regarding electrical regulations does that mean you did not pay your tax as well ??
i did not think you could pay your tax if you were renting illegally
You can pay tax because the tax dep don't have anyway of separating short term rental declarations from long term rentals
Fox Ignorance is no excuse in Law in Spain
If you want information go and seek it. If you dont know where to ask go see a Lawyer, Gestor or SAC
Hi 9Plus .. as I mentioned ... my Gestor (or accountant as I referred to him in my post) was fully aware of what I was doing as he prepared my annual tax return! He even advised me of the info I needed to have on receipts so that I could claim expenses etc. My point is simply that if community representatives alerted people to to the fact that in order to holiday let on a tourist complex, it could only be done via the sole agent ... then it would save a lot of confusion. On our community they are happy to mention plenty of other things you are not allowed to do ... so why omit that little gem of info?
Added after 4 minutes:
Maybe the canarian government assumed the people buying apartments in spain were intelligent adults not children,and that they would be able to read and understand any paperwork put before them,not that they needed to be told every five minutes no letting,come on
Added after 3 minutes:
i did not think you could pay your tax if you were renting illegally
You certainly can!! I have paid income tax on my holiday let income since I began letting ... and have only recently learnt that although I was letting through an agent it wasn't the agent that held the exploitation licence so therefore my lets are classed as illegal!
Added after 7 minutes:
You can pay tax because the tax dep don't have anyway of separating short term rental declarations from long term rentals
Is that right? because each year when my gestor fills out my tax return I have to show proof of how many days each month my apartment has been let as you can only claim expenses for the time it is let. Eg you can claim the interest paid on your mortgage ... but if you pay say 600€ in a 31 day month but your apartment was only let out for 20 days you would divide 600 by 31, multiply it by 20 to give the amount you could claim against your tax. As the amount of rent received and the individual expenses claimed each month vary dramatically it's blindingly obvious you are not long letting.
Yes but read doreens report from lawyers meeting about this aspect. The tax declarations don't get cross referenced
Fox i guess it could be a conflict of interests.
Talking about conflicts of interest,any chance of an answer to the couple of questions I asked on this thread reguarding the role the sole letting agent has in multiple ownership on some complexes,and the power to veto owners rights to use their own tradesmen...please
Talking about conflicts of interest,any chance of an answer to the couple of questions I asked on this thread reguarding the role the sole letting agent has in multiple ownership on some complexes,and the power to veto owners rights to use their own tradesmen...please
They wouldn't have the right to tell the owner who they are to use but if it was an emergency they would possibly call there own tradesperson if that was the agreement with them.
Weird question.
Of course an owner can use their own tradesmen when doing things like new bathrooms, retiles , kitchens etc .
However if something needs doing fast like replacing a water heater or fixing a leak we use our own guys to make sure the jobs done with minimum disruption to the client
Added after 5 minutes:
I can't think of any time when we've "vetoed" an owner on a choice of tradesman
Yes but read doreens report from lawyers meeting about this aspect. The tax declarations don't get cross referenced
Thanks ... will try to find that.
Thanks ... will try to find that.
Here you go Foz just copied this Doreens report for you
The meeting, with some 20 or so very involved or interested parties, was called to clarify the situation to date and discuss strategy for the future. What follows below is an update to the present situation, themes for further defence against the punitive and ferocious fines that are being levied, and ideas for strategies to lobby the Government to amend the 1995 law.
First, I can confirm that the first responses to appeals were received yesterday; this is just the start of the replies so those who are still waiting a response will no doubt receive theirs shortly. The fine has been reduced on first appeal by €3,000; from €18,000 to €15,000. As part of the defence, the lawyers had presented the Terms&Conditions of the websites which were provided by Turismo as evidence of illegal touristic offer; these Terms&Cs said that the websites were not responsible for the content or able to confirm that personal details were correct. Turismo’s response was that this defence was inadmissible because they did not accept websites as evidence ...
This first appeal-response stage is still open, so it is not yet time to appeal to the Courts. The lawyers are still arguing with Turismo and there is a further 15 days in which to submit additional argument to see if the fine can be reduced again. Whatever the result of this process over the next couple of weeks, it will then be time to take appeals to the Courts. As I understand it, the lawyers will now need Power of Attorney from their clients to continue with this stage, so anyone who is implicated needs to confirm what their lawyer specifically needs. Power of Attorney does not require clients to travel to Tenerife: it can be arranged through Embassies in Britain and Ireland.
Before moving on to themes for defence and future strategy to lobby for legal changes, I want to clarify the following points that have come up several times previously as questions from concerned owners:
• This is not a time-limited operation. It is a “Plan Especial” and is not envisaged as being confined to 2011 alone.
• It is not just foreigners who have been fined: there are Spanish, and specifically Canarian, victims too.
• The fine size of €18,000, from a possible range of €1,500 to €30,000, is based on the Government’s opinion that illegal letting is “competencia desleal”, i.e. unfair competition.
• It is unlikely in the extreme, to the point almost of impossibility, that there will be any co-ordination between the Canarian Regional Government’s Tourism Department and the National Government’s Revenue Department. This would not help Turismo even if there were such co-operation because the Hacienda does not know the nature of the income declared as taxable.
Turning now to themes for defence against these fines, the lawyers intend to pursue three main avenues. It is important not to give away too much at present, but the themes will be political, economic and procedural. There is still plenty of scope for legal argument, though the Government’s own intractability is suggested by the puny reduction of the fine by just €3,000. There is still some way to go, however, before the final stage of appeal to the Courts is reached.
Turning finally to the wider issue of strategies to lobby the Government to amend the 1995 law, there is to be a public meeting (as presently planned, anyway) in the last fortnight of January. A local lobby is being organized by some concerned individuals in Santiago del Teide and they hope to bus in representatives from Canarian businesses (taxis, restaurants, etc). It is also hoped that even the southern Mayors (particularly of Arona, Adeje and Santiago del Teide) might attend now that they are beginning to realize the effects this enforcement will almost certainly have on local tourism.
One argument will be that the Government is itself damaging the economy and acting in an unfairly competitive way in terms of all-inclusive hotels. Another claim will be that even within the constraints of the existing law, the Government does not have the right to insist on the type of tourism the islands offer – that there is an implicit right for, say, groups of naturists, gay tourists, “eco” tourists, to holiday in a way that is not offered either by touristic apartments or hotels, of whatever star category.
To end, the lawyers had clear advice for owners who feel they have no choice but to continue to advertise while this lobbying is going on. That advice is firstly to remove any suggestion from adverts of a touristic offer: not just “holidays”, but “touristic services”, including cleaning, safe storage boxes, airport transfers etc. Secondly, for those with clearly touristic adverts, to write to the administrators of any websites hosting their adverts and say that you do not agree with what is reproduced in your name and that all your letting conforms to the Urban Letting Law – i.e. that you are only offering residential lets. It will be essential to keep a copy, and to send the original by registered mail for proof of delivery: here, there is also the facility of Burofaxes which prove what was actually in the letter sent.
I’m sorry this has been such an essay but both TF and TTF believe that this is such an important issue, and the information we supply in this respect is so vital, that people must be fully and accurately informed. Please note that this is copywritten material and may not be reproduced in full or in part without written permission from the author.
PS Thanks to Janet ******** for drafting this post - we have agreed to do joint posts in future on any important matters relating to the above
Foz - it was made clear at the meeting that there is no exchange of information between Hacienda and Tourism. Rental income is just returned as such - no breakdown as to long or short term ... and there certainly is no one going through the returns thinking ... Aha, that must be Illegal :)
It was also stated that a perception of Tourism is that Illegal Renters are not paying their taxes and are Unfair Competition to the Hotel Sector
Weird question.
Of course an owner can use their own tradesmen when doing things like new bathrooms, retiles , kitchens etc .
However if something needs doing fast like replacing a water heater or fixing a leak we use our own guys to make sure the jobs done with minimum disruption to the client
Added after 5 minutes:
I can't think of any time when we've "vetoed" an owner on a choice of tradesman
Thanks for the reply,now onto the other question,would the 50+1 rule be more democratic if an owner, with more than one apartment on a complex,be only allowed one vote
jogger321
28-12-2011, 13:27
Thanks for the reply,now onto the other question,would the 50+1 rule be more democratic if an owner, with more than one apartment on a complex,be only allowed one vote
Depends on what method of counting the votes you regard as being the most democratic
If you believe in a proportional representation system then if an owner in one complex owns 25% of the apartments and by definition then has a 25% interest in the complex then they should have a quarter of the total votes.
If you don't think this is the most democratic system and open to abuse then the other approach would be one man one vote. Personally if I owned a large number of apartments in one complex I'd want the PR system
In The Sun
28-12-2011, 13:28
I always thought in Law of Horizontal Properties -one of the President's duty was to prevent illegal activity on the community complex?Article 7.2?
Unfortunately on ours he is the prime mover!
How can I get a copy of the Law of Horizontal Properties? Our president doesn't think the illegal letting has anything to do with him
junglejim
28-12-2011, 13:34
Weird question.
Of course an owner can use their own tradesmen when doing things like new bathrooms, retiles , kitchens etc .
However if something needs doing fast like replacing a water heater or fixing a leak we use our own guys to make sure the jobs done with minimum disruption to the client
Added after 5 minutes:
I can't think of any time when we've "vetoed" an owner on a choice of tradesman
The Panorama which is mixed Hotel/ private apartments veto's workmen unless they can provide appropriate documentation , Vat number etc - happened to my mate .
Most small jobs are done on our complex by Technicos after hours , larger reconstruction by outsiders but monitored by head Technico ( especially when retiling to ensure proper membrane sealing !)
Peterrayner
28-12-2011, 14:23
How can I get a copy of the Law of Horizontal Properties? Our president doesn't think the illegal letting has anything to do with him
English Version here
http://www.hestria.es/LPHE.pdf
The Panorama which is mixed Hotel/ private apartments veto's workmen unless they can provide appropriate documentation , Vat number etc - happened to my mate .
Most small jobs are done on our complex by Technicos after hours , larger reconstruction by outsiders but monitored by head Technico ( especially when retiling to ensure proper membrane sealing !)
Which is both fair enough and understandable and undoubtedly a requirement of the comunidad.
Imagine you own 75% of a complex but are 1 owner, and you rent out your 75% along with another 10% making 85% but 11 owners.
Then the remaining 15% make
Up 15 owners and by that way of voting the 15 owners who dont let decide it's residential !
I would be very ****** off!!
Foz - it was made clear at the meeting that there is no exchange of information between Hacienda and Tourism. Rental income is just returned as such - no breakdown as to long or short term ... and there certainly is no one going through the returns thinking ... Aha, that must be Illegal :)
It was also stated that a perception of Tourism is that Illegal Renters are not paying their taxes and are Unfair Competition to the Hotel Sector
I know I probably sound a tad pedantic ... but this kinda proves my point that a lot of us have been letting out our places believing we are operating legally ...paying our taxes etc, feeling that if we were operating illegally surely at the very least the tax authorities or our gestors would mention it to us!! It just strikes me that a lot of people on here feel that anyone who receives an 18,000€ fine though the post deserves what they get ..... I'm just saying there are many of us who would have acted legally had we known and who are horrified to discover we are not legal and are desperatly trying to get legal.
Maybe if everyone who reads this forum requests that the issue should be highlighted at their AGM then surprise fines will be a thing of the past.
Foz you're right and your campaign on your complex should be applauded, I hope you achieve your goals.
there are many others who would rather not go to as much effort as you and pretend they were oblivious to the law - they will be arguing their case for years
Foz - it was made clear at the meeting that there is no exchange of information between Hacienda and Tourism. Rental income is just returned as such - no breakdown as to long or short term ... and there certainly is no one going through the returns thinking ... Aha, that must be Illegal :)
It was also stated that a perception of Tourism is that Illegal Renters are not paying their taxes and are Unfair Competition to the Hotel Sector
and there you have it. illegal renters are seen as unfair competition to the hotels sector. That is the heart of the matter, that is the only reason anybody is being fined and the dormant law is being enforced.
I may have said this already on one or two posts, but still , he we have it more or less from the horses mouth, tourismo has said it to the campaign group/ lawyers.
It was just the same in 1995, the law was brought in when the hotels were struggling, then forgotton when the hotels picked up, and then the canaries had there cake and ate it, full hotels and full apartments.
The hotels clearly have too much sway with the canary government. Yes the hotel industry is very important for the canary economy , but so are the apartments. The apartment guests support resturants ,taxis,supermarkets a bit more than hotel guests. Both types of guests support water parks, car hire, island attractions. The canaries need all these guests, both types. No sensible un biased economist could make a case for supporting the hotels sector at the cost of destroying the apartment sector. If the canary government has done that then they are wrong. They owe it to the canary people, all the canary people, to manage their economy in the best interest of all their people, not just a one sector. In truth since 1995 the apartment sector is much larger today and supporting more locl business,s.
What the canary government should do is allow individual renting , like portugal, and charge each apartment owner each year for a licence. Maybe 400 euro per apartment per year would be reasonable and help the canary government revenues.
Dearie me have you been asleep for a week and posting on autopilot?
Doreen posted that info a while ago and even then it's been generally accepted that the law is due to pressure from the hotel and apartment industry.....
.......The hotels clearly have too much sway with the canary government. Yes the hotel industry is very important for the canary economy , but so are the apartments. ........
Isn't that the point of sending in the inspectors. The apartment owners are important but would carry more weight if their income is accounted for and taxes paid locally i.e. in tenerife, to help the local economy.
and there you have it. illegal renters are seen as unfair competition to the hotels sector. That is the heart of the matter, that is the only reason anybody is being fined and the dormant law is being enforced.
I may have said this already on one or two posts, but still , he we have it more or less from the horses mouth, tourismo has said it to the campaign group/ lawyers.
It was just the same in 1995, the law was brought in when the hotels were struggling, then forgotton when the hotels picked up, and then the canaries had there cake and ate it, full hotels and full apartments.
The hotels clearly have too much sway with the canary government. Yes the hotel industry is very important for the canary economy , but so are the apartments. The apartment guests support resturants ,taxis,supermarkets a bit more than hotel guests. Both types of guests support water parks, car hire, island attractions. The canaries need all these guests, both types. No sensible un biased economist could make a case for supporting the hotels sector at the cost of destroying the apartment sector. If the canary government has done that then they are wrong. They owe it to the canary people, all the canary people, to manage their economy in the best interest of all their people, not just a one sector. In truth since 1995 the apartment sector is much larger today and supporting more locl business,s.
What the canary government should do is allow individual renting , like portugal, and charge each apartment owner each year for a licence. Maybe 400 euro per apartment per year would be reasonable and help the canary government revenues.
Was Turismo in that meeting Doreen attended?
illegal renters are seen as unfair competition to the hotels sector
Correction "illegal renters are seen as unfair competition to the hotels sector and other forms of Legal accommodation"
Has nothing to do with holiday renting on residental sites however it's still unfair competition amongst other stuff.
If indeed it has anything to do with the Hotels and other forms of Legal accommodation, Your argument would be true if you were renting legally but you're not,
so if the Hotels and other forms of Legal accommodation have ANYTHING to do with it i can understand their side more than i can yours
I can imagine the Hotels and other forms of Legal accommodation saying to the Government "you introduced a Law 15 years ago and have only fined a handfull for blantantly breaking it or haven't enforced the Law if you want to see it like that"
Instead of "we just rent out cause the Law is a joke and will never be enforced because, Europe, courts, Hilter, Gadafi, Protectionist, Franco, Mr Bean etc etc "
What the canary government should do is allow individual renting
I agree with this point that Villas, Rustic houses and other stand-alone properties providing they are up to the relevant spec for security and safety.
Food for Thought for the owners joining the litigation team, if you're on a residential complex that's never had a licence (dinastia, el mirador, Parque tropical etc) then not only do
You need to get rid of the article 38 from the 1995 law but there's the small matter of a moratorium to negotiate too.
Peterrayner
29-12-2011, 12:28
Food for Thought for the owners joining the litigation team, if you're on a residential complex that's never had a licence (dinastia, el mirador, Parque tropical etc) then not only do
You need to get rid of the article 38 from the 1995 law but there's the small matter of a moratorium to negotiate too.
I believe the major stumbling block on the complexes you mentioned would be their internal statutes that would require an absolute majority, ie 100% in favour, at a community meeting before such a change could take place.
And that too!
Wow I hope the lawyers have thought all these things through otherwise they're just taking peoples money with no hope of an outcome.
And that too!
Wow I hope the lawyers have thought all these things through otherwise they're just taking peoples money with no hope of an outcome.
I reckon they are taking people's money to reduce/eliminate their fines :)
And thats something they should all do, but owners on residential sites could be wasting their money trying to do more than this.
And thats something they should all do, but owners on residential sites could be wasting their money trying to do more than this.
I am unaware of any fees being asked for anything else other than disputing fines :)
In The Sun
29-12-2011, 13:16
Hi Loaded
Thanks for your help in the past
What is and were can I find article 38 in the 1995 law? is there anything you can point me to?
Hi Loaded
Thanks for your help in the past
What is and were can I find article 38 in the 1995 law? is there anything you can point me to?
Your welcome :
http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/what-is-next-for-property-owners-who-let.asp
Take a Peak at that article
I am unaware of any fees being asked for anything else other than disputing fines :)
Fair play to them then :)
welshman
29-12-2011, 20:45
Merry Christmas everyone still the same old postings, I,m out in Tenerife at present never seen it so quiet in 14 years listening to one of the market traders in Adeje today say the Hotel,s with all inclusive are finishing the Island. Just wait until they stop the letting as well. It will be like desert Island. Just on another note is it illegal to offer canarian people a discount on accomidation whilst still charging full price to tourist. This is not under counter stuff they advertise on their web discount for locals. They make up the laws out her to look after themselves.
Resident discounts?
Most of the Hotels are still 100% full
It's not a discount to Canarians as such, it is a residents discount for all who live and work here. It's very common in hotels and at attractions and is not illegal
Everywhere i know is fully booked!
delderek
29-12-2011, 20:52
Merry Christmas everyone still the same old postings, I,m out in Tenerife at present never seen it so quiet in 14 years listening to one of the market traders in Adeje today say the Hotel,s with all inclusive are finishing the Island. Just wait until they stop the letting as well. It will be like desert Island. Just on another note is it illegal to offer canarian people a discount on accomidation whilst still charging full price to tourist. This is not under counter stuff they advertise on their web discount for locals. They make up the laws out her to look after themselves.
Where in the World does this not happen? All countries put their own first! (but can't admit it of course)
And the official figures, which of course EXclude illegal letting, are up about 15% on last year, which was up on the year before.
............. next??
golf birdie
29-12-2011, 20:56
Everywhere i know is fully booked!
as far as I can see so are most of the illegal complexes as well which begs the question, where will they go next xmas if its totally wiped out
as far as I can see so are most of the illegal complexes as well which begs the question, where will they go next xmas if its totally wiped out
There are a lot of lf illegal complexes
That will soon have to "sort their *****" out and get the 50%+1 they need - sooner or later this will happen
golf birdie
29-12-2011, 21:11
There are a lot of lf illegal complexes
That will soon have to "sort their *****" out and get the 50%+1 they need - sooner or later this will happen
as far as I know Dinastia, Mirador, Los diamantes 1 & 3, The heights, Margarita and many others can never sort their ****** out. Looking back it would of just been easier to have built them as tourist apartments. Middle of prime tourist land stand huge resident complexes. You never had to be a smart man to see what would happen :)
Maybe they were built as residential to accommodate all the workers and residents in the area but no one thought that Brits on so many complexes would shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their conplexes tourist status
golf birdie
29-12-2011, 21:18
you and I both know, Dinastia and Mirador would of been built for tourists if the law had of allowed it.
The real issue though is there is plenty of space for all.
Why cant residents live near the coast even if there are tourist complexes near by?
But, residential complexes are for people to live in without the disturbances caused by tourists
and
Tourist complexes are for people to come on holiday, enjoy the sun and party but safe in the knowledge that there is a point of contact for emergencies and security (receptions), and qualified staff on duty to fish people out of the pool when they get in trouble (lifeguards)
It was all laid out in law and relatively "simples" until owners on residential AND tourist complexes saw an opportunity to line their pockets, assisted of course by a reasonable chunk of mis-selling.
you and I both know, Dinastia and Mirador would of been built for tourists if the law had of allowed it.
Possibly yes but that's not the point, you were saying where will the tourists go next year and it's my prediction than floundering "dormant-tourist" complexes will re-register and once again flourish as they should .
Blimey anyone would think it was Center Parcs, the gated tourist community only
x
golf birdie
29-12-2011, 21:31
most Spanish people I know would rather live in hell than Los cristianos or Las Americas. If you list all the places for residents in these two places the number of apartments is huge and would never be full unless they sold them for peanuts:)
Added after 2 minutes:
Possibly yes but that's not the point, you were saying where will the tourists go next year and it's my prediction than floundering "dormant-tourist" complexes will re-register and once again flourish as they should .
how many of these places are empty at the moment ?
Back in the day the whole of the island was designated into areas, Touristic, residential, parks, walkways etc etc
The south grew into one mass of mix, get over it and abide by the Law until there's some kind of change....
How many are empty? None. How many are not as full as they could be? A lot , if not all.
golf birdie
29-12-2011, 21:41
I was looking for 2 couples for two weeks starting tomorrow, could not find a thing, legal or not. This is before the full effect takes place, IMO which will be next year. Theres going to be a lot of disapointed people not able to holiday where they want to.
How do you look for illegal accommodation?
Not really as the apartments will be that cheap they'll just buy one
Merry Christmas everyone still the same old postings, I,m out in Tenerife at present never seen it so quiet in 14 years listening to one of the market traders in Adeje today say the Hotel,s with all inclusive are finishing the Island. Just wait until they stop the letting as well. It will be like desert Island. Just on another note is it illegal to offer canarian people a discount on accomidation whilst still charging full price to tourist. This is not under counter stuff they advertise on their web discount for locals. They make up the laws out her to look after themselves.
hope you are enjoying your holidays. would be interesting to hear how busy the restuarant trade is at present in resort. We know the hotels are doing a lot of AI , the restuarants and bars depend upon apartment guests, that means legal 50 plus 1 complex,s, dormant touristic and residential.
IMO its the summer thats going to see the problem become more apparent, in winter apartments get repeat bookings , so family and friends will continue under the radar. However summer bookings ca only be generated by internet ads and these have largely been pulled now. The customers looking on the internet ads will chose another destination ,not canaries, they have the rest of europe to search from. This recent new way of chosing a self catering holiday should be a shop window for the canaries, it has been for many years.
The canary economy needs every bed full if possible, hotel and apartment.
I was reading your post thinking "Nelsons talking sense here" and then you said people will go to other countries if they can't find a private rental in Tenerife. Are you for real?
If someone can't find a randomly owned apartment in a random town in a random canary island - then they will swap countries altogether instead of booking one of the hundreds of quality alternatives available in the place they already know and love?
I don't think so!
I was reading your post thinking "Nelsons talking sense here" and then you said people will go to other countries if they can't find a private rental in Tenerife. Are you for real?
If someone can't find a randomly owned apartment in a random town in a random canary island - then they will swap countries altogether instead of booking one of the hundreds of quality alternatives available in the place they already know and love?
I don't think so!
people searching on internet sites for private apartments may not be searching canaries alone, special late deal offers are multi national. Clearly you can not expect to loose all the canary ads from the internet sites without losing a lot of customers, especially in summer.
We have had many first time guests, never been to canaries before, those internet sites are the modern new way for many people booking self catering accomodation.
The canaries taking a luddite mentality to these ads will harm the canary economy IMO.
Yes I'm pretty sure most people search for accommodation by:
Private rental available in any country anywhere in the world
As Opposed to:
Place they wanna go, accommodation available
Yes I'm pretty sure most people search for accommodation by:
Private rental available in any country anywhere in the world
As Opposed to:
Place they wanna go, accommodation available
thing is we have to be careful not to generalise here. yes there are repeat customers who love the canaries, I am one , thats how we began. This type is the mainstay of winter trade, even in winter though there are one timers and first timers. In summer there are more first timers and one timers.
At the end of the day the canary economy needs maximum occupancy, and that means hotels, 50 plus 1 complex.s, dormant touristic and residential in tourist zones. To attack any of these is going to be damaging to the canary economy.
The answer is legal letting , like portugal, with IMO an annual payment to the canary government for a permit to let.
The answer is not to legalise private letting on residential complexes, the answer is to help bring the dormant tourist complexes come within the existing law so as to ensure quality standards are maintained and let owners get on with letting legally.
Residential complexes are just that, places where people live, the law prohibiting letting to tourists should be (and I'm certain will be) upheld and enforced. That is not to say that if there were full agreement of all owners on an existing residential complex there shouldn't be a provision for a change of status, although in reality this will never work since you'll never get all owners to agree and costs of necessary provisions will be too great.
Added after 2 minutes:
But maybe one day the island will run out of legal touristic accomodation.
For the moment though, with official tourist numbers rising considerably it will take a long time before there is any noticable impact on visitors
The answer is not to legalise private letting on residential complexes, the answer is to help bring the dormant tourist complexes come within the existing law so as to ensure quality standards are maintained and let owners get on with letting legally.
Residential complexes are just that, places where people live, the law prohibiting letting to tourists should be (and I'm certain will be) upheld and enforced. That is not to say that if there were full agreement of all owners on an existing residential complex there shouldn't be a provision for a change of status, although in reality this will never work since you'll never get all owners to agree and costs of necessary provisions will be too great.
Added after 2 minutes:
But maybe one day the island will run out of legal touristic accomodation.
For the moment though, with official tourist numbers rising considerably it will take a long time before there is any noticable impact on visitors
the thing is the current increase is for the most part hotel AI. This does not help the restuarants/bars quite so much. With the current crackdown that is the concern, the effect on the resorts of less apartment visitors. Surely they can not all be accomodated in dormant touristic or present legal complex,s. There has to be less visitors if you ban el mirador / dinasta. Just look how el mirador has brought trade to its bars / restuarants , booming throughout this crissis. All thanks to internet ads.
Its will hurt the canary economy if they are stopped.
Step 1 - fill legal accommodation.
Step 2 - lift moratorium and build new accommodation
Step 1 - fill legal accommodation.
Step 2 - lift moratorium and build new accommodation
you are missing the point. As it stands we have a lot of full beds in legal and illegal acomodation. Up to now mostly full in all sectors. Whats going to happen is that if hundreds of thousands of illegal beds are stammped out at a stroke, then the canary economy will suffer imensley.
Current legal operators may see this as a benefit to themselves, but beyond their personal gain we are looking at great harm to the wider canarian economy and community.
Legalise I say, take an annual fee , but lets fill the resorts and bring prosperity to the whole canarian economy. Move with the times, portugal did this, let the canary government follow their example to the benefit of the canary people.
Why not legalize by getting the 50%+1 on your complex?
Here,s the BIG problem,that some on here either,don,t get or aren,t ars*d about.Take a look at those that post on here,its either those who illegaly let,or those,who will profit from the new law,thus benefiting from the new law.Tenerife cannot afford to say goodbye to those thousands of so called illegal renters that will undoubtly rent elsewhere. And heres the joke...quote loaded "why not legalize by getting the 50%+1on your complex" maybe theres someone on
their complex who has a sizeable enough majority to influence the 50%+1 rule.As if that really could happen hey..........
Why not legalize by getting the 50%+1 on your complex?
of course for us that is going to happen, we are dormant touristic. But we were fine without 50 plus 1. I remember walking up to eat at rosas cantina when el mirador was nearly finished. wondering if the bars /restuarants would get going or do any good if they did. What I dont want to see is a ghost town developing around me, not going to help us keep customers if the place starts to slip.
50 plus 1 will give us a breather, but the canary economy needs everyone elses customers and I dont look forward to the whole town slipping down in neglect. That will benefit no one.
Santiago
30-12-2011, 00:30
Here,s the BIG problem,that some on here either,don,t get or aren,t ars*d about.Take a look at those that post on here,its either those who illegaly let,or those,who will profit from the new law,thus benefiting from the new law.Tenerife cannot afford to say goodbye to those thousands of so called illegal renters that will undoubtly rent elsewhere. And heres the joke...quote loaded "why not legalize by getting the 50%+1on your complex" maybe theres someone on
their complex who has a sizeable enough majority to influence the 50%+1 rule.As if that really could happen hey..........
For those who think that we, the renters, will not go elsewhere if unable to have our usual apartment - look at this, and it's only and extra hour and a half away: http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/Cape_Verde/CV25.htm
I could easily book with one of the tour operators, (if they haven't gone bankrupt), but cannot guarantee a good view and all the amenities I am used to. I could also book direct with the legal tourist apartments, and have tried to do so in the past, but they will also not guarantee me the position I require. The cost of the holiday is not an issue, at least not with me, so I don't rent privately to get a cheap holiday, I do it because I want the enjoyment of my particular requirements when I do have my holiday. (And, NO, Tom and Sharon, I do not stay in residential complexes!).
You may think that because I have been holidaying in Tenerife for nearly forty years that I won't change. But should I not be able to rent a good apartment with fabulous view and amenities then maybe the time has come for a change!
I know it has all been said before, but we can only hope that someone in authority will take another look at the law and arrive at a solution which will meet with the approval of the majority.
Why is it that you dont you get the principle of the law, which is found elsewhere in the world.
Residential is where people live, not where people own to earn money from tourists. The two reasons for this are
1 - The fact that humans have a legal right to live in relative peace and tranquility - when your neighbours are changing every week and don't have any regard for your rights because they are on their "jollies" you can see why such a situation will never sit comfortably, and never be legalised.
2 - The tourist industry is the largest industry in the islands by far. They have every right to protect the image of the industry through controls over quality as does any other industry in any other country in the world, and this right has even been reviewed and approved in the European Courts of Justice. Part of the protection and control of the tourist industry is to minimise complaints about standards of accomodation and safety procedures afforded to tourists.
The courts will never go back on their decisions to protect the rights of people to live in peace and quiet and allow tourists onto residential complexes, they or a sensible campaign might succeed in minor alterations to the 50+1 rules - but strict control over standards will remain.
I think you may find that your location as on a little rock just off africa will arrive sooner than you think
Brits don't like change do they
golf birdie
30-12-2011, 10:44
Brits don't like change do they
no they don't:wink: My family rent on an illegal complex, same apartment 3 times a year (10 weeks in total). They don't do it to save money as I could get them other apartments (some legal) for a 1/3 less. They do it because its everything they want, location, comfort and sad but true, british TV. I once had other family members book to stay at Gran Arona at the same time they were over and when I took them there to meet up they all said if this was the only option they would never holiday here. My sister thought it was like a prison camp. The plain fact is they do not want to stay in hotels or out of the way 2nd rate tourist complexes.
Added after 2 minutes:
How do you look for illegal accommodation?
if you need the answer for that I think you should go to spec savers:laugh: I am asked so often if I know of apartments for rent, at least once a week.
Brits don't like change do they
Thats about the size of it. I have a huge amount of sympathy for those who are caught up in this on the one hand, but non at all on the other.
The real blame lies with those who, for 14 or 15 years have knowingly mis-sold property to primarily Brits. Their (our) culture is one of property ownership and as a result of many of us having huge amounts of equity in our UK property many saw releasing that equity and using it to buy more property. Sadly though, there were many unscrupulous "geezers" who saw an opportunity and started to promote buying holiday homes in Spain and the Canaries. Mortgages were freely available and the root cause of the problem was the advice many were given about the law here - primarily that it exists but dont worry about it.
When I was looking for a "pad" I was given just such advice by well respected agents and thankfully ignored it. One of the developments I was being pushed toward (with some force at the time) is now one of those regularly featured in the boletin and therein lies my sympathy - having experienced the levels of persuasion it is easy to understand and appreciate.
Bottom line though is, as I said above, any relaxation of the law governing private letting will never be extended to those owning apartments in residential complexes - there are too many human rights issues involved and too many current owners who, if they have any form of proof of mis-selling who will seek compensation from the agents involved.
Bummer for those involved - definately, sympathy - not much I'm afraid. Pretty much everyone tangled up in this now knew exactly what they were doing.
golf birdie
30-12-2011, 11:06
Thats about the size of it. I have a huge amount of sympathy for those who are caught up in this on the one hand, but non at all on the other.
The real blame lies with those who, for 14 or 15 years have knowingly mis-sold property to primarily Brits..
I put a lot of blame at the door of the local goverment who passed this law and then proceeded to stop the building of tourist complexes. Any fool could see what would happen.
Tom & Sharon
30-12-2011, 11:19
We have just found out this week that our complex (residential as if you didn't know!) has had an inspection, as a consequence of the denuncia issued earlier in the year.
Updates to follow.......................................
jogger321
30-12-2011, 12:11
Thats about the size of it. I have a huge amount of sympathy for those who are caught up in this on the one hand, but non at all on the other.
The real blame lies with those who, for 14 or 15 years have knowingly mis-sold property to primarily Brits. Their (our) culture is one of property ownership and as a result of many of us having huge amounts of equity in our UK property many saw releasing that equity and using it to buy more property. Sadly though, there were many unscrupulous "geezers" who saw an opportunity and started to promote buying holiday homes in Spain and the Canaries. Mortgages were freely available and the root cause of the problem was the advice many were given about the law here - primarily that it exists but dont worry about it.
When I was looking for a "pad" I was given just such advice by well respected agents and thankfully ignored it. One of the developments I was being pushed toward (with some force at the time) is now one of those regularly featured in the boletin and therein lies my sympathy - having experienced the levels of persuasion it is easy to understand and appreciate.
Bottom line though is, as I said above, any relaxation of the law governing private letting will never be extended to those owning apartments in residential complexes - there are too many human rights issues involved and too many current owners who, if they have any form of proof of mis-selling who will seek compensation from the agents involved.
Bummer for those involved - definately, sympathy - not much I'm afraid. Pretty much everyone tangled up in this now knew exactly what they were doing.
I'm with you on this one Muppet. Around circa 2005/2006 I spent a few weeks in Southern Tenerife looking at property. In particular there were those two high profile residential complexes often mentioned on here around the oasis sur being heavily pushed.
I remember having a particularly unpleasant experience in a high profile estate agents when I told them they were completely wrong and deliberately giving false information in relation to the legality of holiday lettings on these two complexes. In fact if I remember I was asked to leave there offices! (they had other punters who could hear our conversation)
Yes sorry for the naieve purchasers who somehow managed to buy who really should not have and got ripped off ...but like you I think most people knew exactly what they were doing.
They were and are investments anyway and as we all know all investments carry a degree of risk..
welshman
30-12-2011, 13:17
If everything is full people are not spending money our they are in All inclusive Hotels. ??? This is one of the busiest time of the year and after 14 years coming for christmas I find it quiet. With regards to discounts to locals I,m sure if you were treated the same way as tourist in UK you would have gripe. I,m staying on private complex residential just talking to residence that supposedly classed as residents. They still go home every few months to have medical treatment claim their incapacity benifit etc these are not residence these are tourists but dictating who can own our let. They want the safety of both countries without commiting. :whistle::whistle:
We have just found out this week that our complex (residential as if you didn't know!) has had an inspection, as a consequence of the denuncia issued earlier in the year.
Updates to follow.......................................
Which one are you on ??
Tom & Sharon
30-12-2011, 13:37
Which one are you on ??
Pm sent.................
Added after 15 minutes:
If everything is full people are not spending money our they are in All inclusive Hotels. ??? This is one of the busiest time of the year and after 14 years coming for christmas I find it quiet. With regards to discounts to locals I,m sure if you were treated the same way as tourist in UK you would have gripe. I,m staying on private complex residential just talking to residence that supposedly classed as residents. They still go home every few months to have medical treatment claim their incapacity benifit etc these are not residence these are tourists but dictating who can own our let. They want the safety of both countries without commiting. :whistle::whistle:
It is totally irrelevant how much time an owner spends in their own residential apartment. It is theirs, they bought it to use as they wish. There are quite a few people who bought in our complex, none of which claim, in your words "incapacity benefit etc". They are hard working people who live and work in the UK, and I should imagine pay quite substantial income tax there. They bought a holiday home in the sun, to use at their will, and specifically on a residential complex, so that whilst they are here they are not surrounded by tourists.
They are not simply "tourists", they have purchased a second home in the sun. They are owners, pay their community fees and are entitled to decide how the community is run just as much as someone who is in residence 52 weeks of the year.
There are only 3 people who feel they should be able to rent out whilst they are not here, the remainder want to keep our lovely complex to the owners who have paid for it, care about it, and place the interests of the community as paramount.
It is totally irrelevant how much time an owner spends in their own residential apartment. It is theirs, they bought it to use as they wish. There are quite a few people who bought in our complex, none of which claim, in your words "incapacity benefit etc". They are hard working people who live and work in the UK, and I should imagine pay quite substantial income tax there. They bought a holiday home in the sun, to use at their will, and specifically on a residential complex, so that whilst they are here they are not surrounded by tourists.
They are not simply "tourists", they have purchased a second home in the sun. They are owners, pay their community fees and are entitled to decide how the community is run just as much as someone who is in residence 52 weeks of the year.
There are only 3 people who feel they should be able to rent out whilst they are not here, the remainder want to keep our lovely complex to the owners who have paid for it, care about it, and place the interests of the community as paramount.
Just to back up what Sharon is saying, I went round to there place last week. Tom is back from the UK for a month or so. As it was a nice day, he decided he´d spend it floating around the pool on his big inflatable crocodile with an 8 pack of beer. If tourists were all over the place they would ruin these magical moments.
Later in the day he returned to their apartment to tend to the lawn and reposition his collection of garden gnomes which he is so fond of :)
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 14:26
We choose the places we stay in because they are quiet - don't want to be near any rowdy English coming home loud and drunk enjoying themselves - thank you!!! Unfortunately the ones that are quiet are the illegal ones. If we can't stay anywhere quiet in the future then we will definitely go elsewhere, but I'm sure the island will survive without my money!!
golf birdie
30-12-2011, 14:53
We choose the places we stay in because they are quiet - don't want to be near any rowdy English coming home loud and drunk enjoying themselves - thank you!!! Unfortunately the ones that are quiet are the illegal ones. If we can't stay anywhere quiet in the future then we will definitely go elsewhere, but I'm sure the island will survive without my money!!
that sums up many 1000's of holiday makers who spend a lot of cash here. They don't want to be overrun with kids and drunken idiots.
Why don't you find a legal touristic site without kids!
H10 Big Sur is now adults only, and I know Paloma Beach and Royal Palm have a same sex filter to keep out groups of 18-30's. So the type of accommodation you want is catered for in different places.
golf birdie
30-12-2011, 15:21
H10 Big Sur is now adults only, and I know Paloma Beach and Royal Palm have a same sex filter to keep out groups of 18-30's. So the type of accommodation you want is catered for in different places.
the drunken idiots I see are way past 30:laugh:
Santiago
30-12-2011, 15:23
It is totally irrelevant how much time an owner spends in their own residential apartment. It is theirs, they bought it to use as they wish. There are quite a few people who bought in our complex, none of which claim, in your words "incapacity benefit etc". They are hard working people who live and work in the UK, and I should imagine pay quite substantial income tax there. They bought a holiday home in the sun, to use at their will, and specifically on a residential complex, so that whilst they are here they are not surrounded by tourists.
They are not simply "tourists", they have purchased a second home in the sun. They are owners, pay their community fees and are entitled to decide how the community is run just as much as someone who is in residence 52 weeks of the year.
There are only 3 people who feel they should be able to rent out whilst they are not here, the remainder want to keep our lovely complex to the owners who have paid for it, care about it, and place the interests of the community as paramount.
But surely, if you don't live in it then you are not a resident. If you bought it to stay in, for however many weeks of the year, then you are a visitor to the island. In fact it sounds as if several of the owners where you stay are doing the same thing. Surely if you are a resident then you reside in your apartment permanently, or at least for a considerable amount of time during each year. Thus a second home owner is not a resident but a person who owns a home for their holidays, etc.
jogger321
30-12-2011, 15:24
We choose the places we stay in because they are quiet - don't want to be near any rowdy English coming home loud and drunk enjoying themselves - thank you!!! Unfortunately the ones that are quiet are the illegal ones. If we can't stay anywhere quiet in the future then we will definitely go elsewhere, but I'm sure the island will survive without my money!!
If you are after the weather, I've heard Cleethorpes is very nice this time of year.:wave:
the drunken idiots I see are way past 30:laugh:
I guess when you go to a party you spend most of the evening in the kitchen!
Let me know where you are going on New Years Eve and i'll go somewhere else.
Both Egypt and Greeces forums are crap
You guys will not go somewhere else you will carry on coming to Tenerife as you've always done
or i will find you...
x
that sums up many 1000's of holiday makers who spend a lot of cash here. They don't want to be overrun with kids and drunken idiots.
And this is exactly why the major tour operators are evolving their offers to tourists. Some, like First Choice have now moved to offering nothing other than All Inclusives - not to everybody's tastes but like Heinz beans you get exactly what it says on the tin.
Others have moved and continue to move toward Adults only holiday experiences - therefore no kids and therefore similar to the above tins of beans.
I think the importance of the illegal private letting industry to the local economy is being over-played a fair bit in this discussion. Consider that the best part of 3 million brit tourists will have travelled to Tenerife alone legally this year and that is some 15% up on the year before. At the moment certainly the relative strength of the legal market and its recent recovery is significant and it will be argued that the reason for the recent growth will be the continuing improvement in the standard of accomodation vs expectations of the tourist.
Any (residential complex) private letters arguing that they should be allowed to contine because, in the main, their offer is superior to what is available legally and quite obviously growing in popularity, have one hell of a battle on their hands
golf birdie
30-12-2011, 15:49
I guess when you go to a party you spend most of the evening in the kitchen!
Let me know where you are going on New Years Eve and i'll go somewhere else.
oh dear, will my life be worth living:(
But surely, if you don't live in it then you are not a resident. If you bought it to stay in, for however many weeks of the year, then you are a visitor to the island. In fact it sounds as if several of the owners where you stay are doing the same thing. Surely if you are a resident then you reside in your apartment permanently, or at least for a considerable amount of time during each year. Thus a second home owner is not a resident but a person who owns a home for their holidays, etc.
The individual "residential" status of an apartment owner is totally irrelevant. So what if it is empty a lot of the time as long as the Cominidad fees are paid then why not. The point is that when an owner does choose to live there he/she has the right not to be disturbed be tourists in the exact same way as those who do live there year round.
The real issue (once again) is that residential complexes and/or apartments within them are not subject to the standards required of them by law, which is the root of the 1995 law.
the drunken idiots I see are way past 30:laugh:
You should probably cut dow non your drinking then :laugh:
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 17:46
H10 Big Sur is now adults only, and I know Paloma Beach and Royal Palm have a same sex filter to keep out groups of 18-30's. So the type of accommodation you want is catered for in different places.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I just don't want stay with other tourists - if I want to keep bumping into English people then I may as well stay at home - mind you went to York the other month and they were mostly foreigners!!
I've found a fabulous place to stay, you can hear a pin drop at night and no noise whatsoever in the day - most days the pool is empty - just perfect for us. We can go into the hustle and bustle of Los Cris or Americas and then come back knowing peace and quiet await - pure bliss!! It will be very disappointing if we can't keep going there. :(
PS - I can't stand parties so wouldn't even be in the kitchen!!! ;)
Sounds like you need to buy somewhere Goforgold!
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 17:50
The individual "residential" status of an apartment owner is totally irrelevant. So what if it is empty a lot of the time as long as the Cominidad fees are paid then why not. The point is that when an owner does choose to live there he/she has the right not to be disturbed be tourists in the exact same way as those who do live there year round.
The real issue (once again) is that residential complexes and/or apartments within them are not subject to the standards required of them by law, which is the root of the 1995 law.
I totally agree with you the owners should not be disturbed by tourists - that's why I like the illegal ones!! :)
Added after 2 minutes:
Sounds like you need to buy somewhere Goforgold!
Totally Off Topic now!! If I had the 300,000 euros to buy one on that complex I would. Hoping to do long term renting there one day, so I don't want any holiday makers staying waking me up dragging their suitcases along or I will be the first to complain!! ;)
I'm not trying to be rude, but I just don't want stay with other tourists - if I want to keep bumping into English people then I may as well stay at home - mind you went to York the other month and they were mostly foreigners!!
I've found a fabulous place to stay, you can hear a pin drop at night and no noise whatsoever in the day - most days the pool is empty - just perfect for us. We can go into the hustle and bustle of Los Cris or Americas and then come back knowing peace and quiet await - pure bliss!! It will be very disappointing if we can't keep going there. :(
PS - I can't stand parties so wouldn't even be in the kitchen!!! ;)
erm .........................
Sounds like you need to buy somewhere Goforgold!
.... as far away from the south and west coast as possible too !!
xx
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 18:13
erm .........................
.... as far away from the south and west coast as possible too !!
xx
................................:nono::nono:
delderek
30-12-2011, 20:01
I'm not trying to be rude, but I just don't want stay with other tourists - if I want to keep bumping into English people then I may as well stay at home - mind you went to York the other month and they were mostly foreigners!!
I've found a fabulous place to stay, you can hear a pin drop at night and no noise whatsoever in the day - most days the pool is empty - just perfect for us. We can go into the hustle and bustle of Los Cris or Americas and then come back knowing peace and quiet await - pure bliss!! It will be very disappointing if we can't keep going there. :(
PS - I can't stand parties so wouldn't even be in the kitchen!!! ;)
Hustle and Bustle of Los Cris!!, Ever tried Royal Palm, yes, you can hear a pin drop, and yes the pools are mostly empty and yes the apartments are large with large terraces, and surprise surprise it is a legal touristic complex, and 10 mins walk into town. So please do not generalise, you don't have to be in the sticks, to get peace and quiet.
H10 Big Sur is now adults only, and I know Paloma Beach and Royal Palm have a same sex filter to keep out groups of 18-30's. So the type of accommodation you want is catered for in different places.
Is that legal? The same sex part? Can complexes discriminate against gay/lesbian holiday makers like that?
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 20:25
Hustle and Bustle of Los Cris!!, Ever tried Royal Palm, yes, you can hear a pin drop, and yes the pools are mostly empty and yes the apartments are large with large terraces, and surprise surprise it is a legal touristic complex, and 10 mins walk into town. So please do not generalise, you don't have to be in the sticks, to get peace and quiet.
There is no need to be so patronising!!!!
Yes I do know Royal Palm very well - I used to live there and so yes I do know it is very quiet. I have also had many holidays in Port Royal (yes I know illegal, before you say anything), also extremely quiet, but I don't want to stay in Los Cris up a steep hill anymore. I wasn't generalising - I was talking about what I want myself from a holiday taking into account my needs and what is available on a touristic complex!!
The only touristic apartments I would entertain would be Paloma Beach.
Tom & Sharon
30-12-2011, 20:29
;)
Just to back up what Sharon is saying, I went round to there place last week. Tom is back from the UK for a month or so. As it was a nice day, he decided he´d spend it floating around the pool on his big inflatable crocodile with an 8 pack of beer. If tourists were all over the place they would ruin these magical moments.
Later in the day he returned to their apartment to tend to the lawn and reposition his collection of garden gnomes which he is so fond of :)
That's you crossed off our "family & friends" list!
We choose the places we stay in because they are quiet - don't want to be near any rowdy English coming home loud and drunk enjoying themselves - thank you!!! Unfortunately the ones that are quiet are the illegal ones. If we can't stay anywhere quiet in the future then we will definitely go elsewhere, but I'm sure the island will survive without my money!!
And we chose the place we bought for exactly the same reason!
that sums up many 1000's of holiday makers who spend a lot of cash here. They don't want to be overrun with kids and drunken idiots.
But owners/residents who spent tens/hundreds of thousands of pounds buying somewhere do?
But surely, if you don't live in it then you are not a resident. If you bought it to stay in, for however many weeks of the year, then you are a visitor to the island. In fact it sounds as if several of the owners where you stay are doing the same thing. Surely if you are a resident then you reside in your apartment permanently, or at least for a considerable amount of time during each year. Thus a second home owner is not a resident but a person who owns a home for their holidays, etc.
Legally if you spend more than 3 months of the year here, you have to be a resident. So, legally you are a resident who lives in a residential complex. How many more times?
The individual "residential" status of an apartment owner is totally irrelevant. So what if it is empty a lot of the time as long as the Cominidad fees are paid then why not. The point is that when an owner does choose to live there he/she has the right not to be disturbed be tourists in the exact same way as those who do live there year round.
The real issue (once again) is that residential complexes and/or apartments within them are not subject to the standards required of them by law, which is the root of the 1995 law.
Exactly!
I'm not trying to be rude, but I just don't want stay with other tourists - if I want to keep bumping into English people then I may as well stay at home - mind you went to York the other month and they were mostly foreigners!!
I've found a fabulous place to stay, you can hear a pin drop at night and no noise whatsoever in the day - most days the pool is empty - just perfect for us. We can go into the hustle and bustle of Los Cris or Americas and then come back knowing peace and quiet await - pure bliss!! It will be very disappointing if we can't keep going there. :(
PS - I can't stand parties so wouldn't even be in the kitchen!!! ;)
And we found a fabulous place to buy and live for exactly the same reason.
I totally agree with you the owners should not be disturbed by tourists - that's why I like the illegal ones!! :)
Added after 2 minutes:
Totally Off Topic now!! If I had the 300,000 euros to buy one on that complex I would. Hoping to do long term renting there one day, so I don't want any holiday makers staying waking me up dragging their suitcases along or I will be the first to complain!! ;)
You're not really helping your own argument are you? You may be a quiet tourist, but you are the exception rather than the rule.
Read our signature and get saving! ;)
Is that legal? The same sex part? Can complexes discriminate against gay/lesbian holiday makers like that?
At paloma beach We don't discriminate against gays or lesbians , they are very welcome - infact until recently we advertised on reservasgay.com .
What we do discriminate against is people who are wanting an 18-30 style getaway where they can get ******, take drugs and bring the opposite sex back for a good time. Whenever we get an enquiry that sounds like that we politely suggest they'd have more fun in las Americas.
Is that PC? I don't know but we try and look after the properties we rent and keep the standards up
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 20:42
Sharon/Tom - and you're not very good at seeing when posts are tongue in cheek either !! ;) - I do actually agree with you!!! :)
Added after 2 minutes:
At paloma beach We don't discriminate against gays or lesbians , they are very welcome - infact until recently we advertised on reservasgay.com .
What we do discriminate against is people who are wanting an 18-30 style getaway where they can get ******, take drugs and bring the opposite sex back for a good time. Whenever we get an enquiry that sounds like that we politely suggest they'd have more fun in las Americas.
Is that PC? I don't know but we try and look after the properties we rent and keep the standards up
Paloma it getting more tempting by the minute !! :)
What? Full of gays and no drugs?
At paloma beach We don't discriminate against gays or lesbians , they are very welcome - infact until recently we advertised on reservasgay.com .
What we do discriminate against is people who are wanting an 18-30 style getaway where they can get ******, take drugs and bring the opposite sex back for a good time. Whenever we get an enquiry that sounds like that we politely suggest they'd have more fun in las Americas.
Is that PC? I don't know but we try and look after the properties we rent and keep the standards up
Quite right xxx thought you were heading for uproar from the gay community for a minute xx
I have gay friends and family so that would be me getting lynched I think !!!
Goforgold
30-12-2011, 21:10
What? Full of gays and no drugs?
.......................:ashamed:
Is that legal? The same sex part? Can complexes discriminate against gay/lesbian holiday makers like that?
Same sex groups - not couples. We try to avoid groups of lads/girls having stag/hen parties.
Dave-Durham
31-12-2011, 13:25
I've not read the full thread so apologies in advance, but the one thing I get from what I have read is that *residents* don't want holidaymakers in their complexes, am I correct.
P.S. Recently had another excellent week in Los Cristianos on the same complex that I've been using two or three times a year for years now, hasta pronto.
moonlighter
31-12-2011, 13:35
I've not read the full thread so apologies in advance, but the one thing I get from what I have read is that *residents* don't want holidaymakers in their complexes, am I correct.
P.S. Recently had another excellent week in Los Cristianos on the same complex that I've been using two or three times a year for years now, hasta pronto.
You are not necessarily correct no. We own on a residential complex and visit when we can, so I would class ourselves as holidaymakers. We don't want noisy holidaymakers thank you but we also don't want noisy residents and in our experience most of the noise problems come from the full time residents themselves.
golf birdie
31-12-2011, 13:40
You are not necessarily correct no. We own on a residential complex and visit when we can, so I would class ourselves as holidaymakers. We don't want noisy holidaymakers thank you but we also don't want noisy residents and in our experience most of the noise problems come from the full time residents themselves.
most problems are from log lets IMO.
Added after 4 minutes:
I've not read the full thread so apologies in advance, but the one thing I get from what I have read is that *residents* don't want holidaymakers in their complexes, am I correct.
P.S. Recently had another excellent week in Los Cristianos on the same complex that I've been using two or three times a year for years now, hasta pronto.
I live on a residential which is used by holiday makers and have no problem with it at all.
Dave-Durham
31-12-2011, 14:14
that sums up many 1000's of holiday makers who spend a lot of cash here. I don't want to be overrun with kids and drunken idiots.
This is my number one priority, and the complex I use fulfils my requirements, thank you.
This is my number one priority, and the complex I use fulfils my requirements, thank you.
Let's hope it is a legal one and you can continue to return frequently then.
Dave-Durham
31-12-2011, 14:27
Let's hope it is a legal one and you can continue to return frequently then.
This is partly the conundrum I'm in, I have absolutely no idea what is legal and what is not?
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