View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Goforgold
31-12-2011, 17:01
Which complex?
Don't tell 'im Dave-Durham - everyone will be trying to stay there!!! :) - you can tell me though ;)
This is partly the conundrum I'm in, I have absolutely no idea what is legal and what is not? Keep it to yourself you don,t know who,s reading this.................or who might report back to those in high places.....lol
This is partly the conundrum I'm in, I have absolutely no idea what is legal and what is not?
Ask the owner :)
Wow I didn't think we'd got this paranoid !
Asking the owner is a waste of time for 2 reasons:
1. I have had owners on PB ringing me to check they are legal after receiving a letter from Marcus Cabrera - these owners have been owners for over 15 years.....
2. Some owners on tourist complexes think they're legal because the complex has a licence but they arent with the sole agent so they aren't legal....
Wow I didn't think we'd got this paranoid !
Asking the owner is a waste of time for 2 reasons:
1. I have had owners on PB ringing me to check they are legal after receiving a letter from Marcus Cabrera - these owners have been owners for over 15 years.....
2. Some owners on tourist complexes think they're legal because the complex has a licence but they arent with the sole agent so they aren't legal....Forget paranoia for now even though we,ve disagreed over the year i,d like to wish you and yours all the best for the new year
Happy new year to you too AJP, it's only banter eh????
Have a great 2012!!!!
Happy new year to you too AJP, it's only banter eh????
Have a great 2012!!!! I thought about this the other night but when your invisible, posting on a forum when no one knows what your realy like,your personality doesn,t come out like you want it to.out of all the people that post on here,even though we,ve argued I reckon you,d be one of those that would be good to go out for a pint with,........so I,m here with my missus and two kids posting a forum 2000 miles away ...........happy days
I thought about this the other night but when your invisible, posting on a forum when no one knows what your realy like,your personality doesn,t come out like you want it to.out of all the people that post on here,even though we,ve argued I reckon you,d be one of those that would be good to go out for a pint with,........so I,m here with my missus and two kids posting a forum 2000 miles away ...........happy days
Ha ha yeah defo, yeah i think I used to be before my 2 kids came along ! Now I'm a boring old fart who's posting replys on forums at 8.20 on new years day because the kids are up!
welshman
05-01-2012, 10:27
Happy New Year everyone still out in the sun back home on Sunday. Just a quick one I was listening to the radio in the car on the 1st Jan . They were going back over the last years events. They mentioned that 7000 fines have been sent? in this thread todate only few have been recorded. Which is correct. Its always been said that there are many thousand fines awaiting serving after present cases have run their coarse. does anyone know? If this quantity had already been issued many people that I have spoken to still are un aware of whats going on.
It's been reported in Spanish press that 7000 fines have been issued, there's more than that now though.
That is correct, as of the last count Tourismo say it is in excess of 7.500 so far been issued - remember though it is all islands not just Tenerife
Peterrayner
05-01-2012, 10:50
It's been reported in Spanish press that 7000 fines have been issued, there's more than that now though.
That is correct, as of the last count Tourismo say it is in excess of 7.500 so far been issued - remember though it is all islands not just Tenerife
do you have a source for that info ?
Janet (whose name may not be mentioned on here) and Doreen following their meeting with the lawyers - posted here sometime ago too.
Does anyone know how a "pension" license differs from a touristic? Is there anyway these could be approved or do they also come under the current moratorium? Thinking of a few properties I know which would benefit from this sort of license a they are perfect as B&B´s.
Does anyone know how a "pension" license differs from a touristic? Is there anyway these could be approved or do they also come under the current moratorium? Thinking of a few properties I know which would benefit from this sort of license a they are perfect as B&B´s.
All I could find so far -
http://www.mesadelturismo.com/common/mt/unidad/material/hoteles/h_canarias.php3
do you have a source for that info ?
Yes: http://www.infonortedigital.com/portada/component/content/article/11-turismo/8250-el-gobierno-de-canarias-actua-sobre-7000-unidades-alojativas-en-ocho-meses Here it says 7000 fines
and since that article is from September we've all seen the fines in the Boletins since then so it's more than 7000
welshman
05-01-2012, 17:53
Would all 7000 show up in boltings, been through most of the since May when the first fines were imposed it does not add up to anyway near the number Is there another list ??
Peterrayner
05-01-2012, 18:09
I am not certain it means 7000 fines ??
se han efectuado actuaciones sobre unas 7.000 unidades alojativas en toda Canarias.
This tranlsates as.... proceedings have been conducted on about 7,000 units located throughout the Canary Islands.
I am reading that has investigations, wouldnt it be sanciones for fines ?
El total de unidades remitidas a las Secciones de Sanciones para iniciar expedientes sancionadores al explotarse turísticamente sin la preceptiva documentación turística asciende a 959.
The total number of units that are subject to disciplinary sanctions for the tourist exploitation without the mandatory tourist documentation amounts to 959.
Added after 5 minutes:
Would all 7000 show up in boltings, been through most of the since May when the first fines were imposed it does not add up to anyway near the number Is there another list ??
No not all fines will show on the Boletins. Only those where the registered notifications cannot be delivered and signed for on receipt or are returned as undelivered or not collected from the post office.
sunchaser
05-01-2012, 18:50
hope you are enjoying your holidays. would be interesting to hear how busy the restuarant trade is at present in resort. We know the hotels are doing a lot of AI , the restuarants and bars depend upon apartment guests, that means legal 50 plus 1 complex,s, dormant touristic and residential.
IMO its the summer thats going to see the problem become more apparent, in winter apartments get repeat bookings , so family and friends will continue under the radar. However summer bookings ca only be generated by internet ads and these have largely been pulled now. The customers looking on the internet ads will chose another destination ,not canaries, they have the rest of europe to search from. This recent new way of chosing a self catering holiday should be a shop window for the canaries, it has been for many years.
The canary economy needs every bed full if possible, hotel and apartment.
This is just not in the canary islands i think this will be all over europe,...The Mallorquin (Mallorca) Tourist Minister is imposing 35,000 euro fines on owners caught holiday letting - if they do not have a licence. Licences are never granted for apartments unless they are in a hotel apartment complex, and fincas licenses stopped being given out years ago.
Added after 11 minutes:
This is just not in the canary islands i think this will be all over europe,...The Mallorquin (Mallorca) Tourist Minister is imposing 35,000 euro fines on owners caught holiday letting - if they do not have a licence. Licences are never granted for apartments unless they are in a hotel apartment complex, and fincas licenses stopped being given out years ago.
UK to hunt down overseas property owners who don’t declare their assets
Thursday, 24 November 2011
Image
British people who own properties overseas which they have not yet disclosed to the UK taxman should put their affairs in order now, according to a tax specialist.
The warning from tax expert Peter Howarth follows the launch of a new investigations team by HM Revenue & Customs to track down people who own land and property abroad by data mining publicly available records.
Howarth, who advises many expats and overseas property owners, says this latest development is one of a number of trends conspiring to catch out those who have undisclosed assets.
‘At one time it would be easy to buy a home overseas and no one would be any the wiser. Nowadays there is increasing transparency as land registry records and other public information is readily available on the internet,’ he said.
‘At the same time we are seeing greater international collaboration between tax authorities. The treaties in place between the UK and most other European countries mean that HMRC can follow up lines of enquiry through its counterparts overseas,’ he explained.
‘What is even more worrying is that, under the terms of a European treaty, tax due in the UK becomes collectable in other countries in many cases. So for example, in Spain, where the tax rules can be draconian, the authorities have the right to empty your Spanish bank account without a court order and even seize your house,’ he added.
Howarth believes that, despite the show of strength from HMRC, it will take a considerable time to track down offenders. Nevertheless, the long term trends mean it will be increasingly difficult to hide overseas assets.
This is just not in the canary islands i think this will be all over europe,...The Mallorquin (Mallorca) Tourist Minister is imposing 35,000 euro fines on owners caught holiday letting - if they do not have a licence. Licences are never granted for apartments unless they are in a hotel apartment complex, and fincas licenses stopped being given out years ago.
UK to hunt down overseas property owners who don’t declare their assets
Thursday, 24 November 2011
Image
British people who own properties overseas which they have not yet disclosed to the UK taxman should put their affairs in order now, according to a tax specialist.
The warning from tax expert Peter Howarth follows the launch of a new investigations team by HM Revenue & Customs to track down people who own land and property abroad by data mining publicly available records.
Howarth, who advises many expats and overseas property owners, says this latest development is one of a number of trends conspiring to catch out those who have undisclosed assets.
‘At one time it would be easy to buy a home overseas and no one would be any the wiser. Nowadays there is increasing transparency as land registry records and other public information is readily available on the internet,’ he said.
‘At the same time we are seeing greater international collaboration between tax authorities. The treaties in place between the UK and most other European countries mean that HMRC can follow up lines of enquiry through its counterparts overseas,’ he explained.
‘What is even more worrying is that, under the terms of a European treaty, tax due in the UK becomes collectable in other countries in many cases. So for example, in Spain, where the tax rules can be draconian, the authorities have the right to empty your Spanish bank account without a court order and even seize your house,’ he added.
Howarth believes that, despite the show of strength from HMRC, it will take a considerable time to track down offenders. Nevertheless, the long term trends mean it will be increasingly difficult to hide overseas assets.
Our revenue (Ireland) cracked down on foreign assets ( accounts or property ) about 6/7 years ago. They pulled in billions in penalties and taxes. This, in a small country like Ireland, would obviously lead to many multiples in the UK. Easy money for the treasury, can't see them looking a gift horse in the mouth!
Tom & Sharon
06-01-2012, 11:05
How can I find out if El Nautico Suites on Golf del Sur is officially residential/touristic?
We have a friend who owns on there, and they seem to be being given conflicting information to me!
1. is there an onsite agent?
If no. not legally touristic.
If Yes, ask agent to produce proof that they hold the license.
2. IS there a plaque outside the building or at Reception with the numbe of keys or stars?
Tom & Sharon
06-01-2012, 11:31
1. is there an onsite agent?
If no. not legally touristic.
If Yes, ask agent to produce proof that they hold the license.
2. IS there a plaque outside the building or at Reception with the numbe of keys or stars?
They don't live here, and don't know what this is all about. It's the first they've heard of it from me, and obviously believe what they are being told on site rather than what we are telling them.
Apparently they have had letters from the administrators saying that they hold a tourist licence, and giving the name of the official agent.
What is making me suspicious is that there is no lifeguard on the pool. It is fenced in, and they have been told that it either has to be fenced in or have a lifeguard, but that's not true is it?
I will find out about the keys/stars.
Is there no official list where I can look it up on-line?
Peterrayner
06-01-2012, 11:32
How can I find out if El Nautico Suites on Golf del Sur is officially residential/touristic?
according to this it has a 4* rating and all the touristic facilities. Contact details available so you could ring them direct.
El Nautico Suites
Calle San Miguel s/n
38620
Golf del Sur
Tenerife Sur
Telephone: +34 922 738 210
Fax: +34 922 738 491
Email: consultas@nauticosuites.com
The 4 star El Nautico Suites complex has an enviable front line location overlooking the Atlantic Ocean in the popular resort of Golf del Sur on the south coast of Tenerife. The hotel is approximately 8km south of the Reina Sofia International Airport, and a few steps from the commercial centre of the resort where you will find a small selection of bars, restaurants and shops.
Built in 2002 the modern low rise El Nautico Suites complex has a total of 66 guest rooms, offering a choice of both one and two bedroom self catering apartments, which are built over 4 floors, and set amidst spacious sub-tropical gardens and sun terraces, around a large central pool area overlooking the sea.
All guest rooms at the hotel are either air conditioned or centrally heated according to the season, and most are now privately owned and individually furnished to a high standard, typically being equipped with a modern "en suite" bathroom with shower and Jacuzzi, along with a separate kitchen with a full size oven and hob, microwave oven, fridge/freezer, dishwasher, electric kettle and toaster, a combined lounge/dining room with sofa beds, direct dial telephone, satellite television, safety deposit box available for rental, and either a balcony or terrace, most of which have exterior views over the pool and garden area towards the sea. In addition to the above features, a daily maid service is also provided, undertaking a change of towels as required and change of bed linen twice a week.
Guest facilities on offer include a 24 hour reception area with currency exchange services, and both luggage and courtesy rooms for late departures, along with an air conditioned buffet style restaurant and snack bar, offering a choice of traditional Spanish, international and vegetarian menus, as well as a games room, public internet terminals, laundry and medical services and both lounge and pool bars.
delderek
06-01-2012, 11:38
They don't live here, and don't know what this is all about. It's the first they've heard of it from me, and obviously believe what they are being told on site rather than what we are telling them.
Apparently they have had letters from the administrators saying that they hold a tourist licence, and giving the name of the official agent.
What is making me suspicious is that there is no lifeguard on the pool. It is fenced in, and they have been told that it either has to be fenced in or have a lifeguard, but that's not true is it?
I will find out about the keys/stars.
Is there no official list where I can look it up on-line?
I believe that is correct, it either has to be fenced, or if not it must have a lifeguard. This was explained at out AGM a few years ago.
And from Peters description above, appears to have a Hotel licence as it has 4*. Apartments are rated with "Keys", which I believe the maximum is three. (but open to correction)
It can be either fenced or have a lifeguard.
Apartments now have stars instead of keys.
Tom & Sharon
06-01-2012, 12:54
Thanks guys.
according to this it has a 4* rating and all the touristic facilities. Contact details available so you could ring them direct.
That has apparently changed.
It was taken over last year and is no longer being run as an Aparthotel, it is now being run as luxury rental apartments.
Full details are here (http://www.golf-del-sur.com/hotels-rental-accommodation/el-nautico) on the Golf Del Sur website
delderek
06-01-2012, 18:03
It can be either fenced or have a lifeguard.
Apartments now have stars instead of keys.
When did this change Loaded, and are three keys or stars the max for normal self catering complexes?
stars are in now and will be changed completely in october 2013. There are also no more aparthotels. Aparthotels had to chose between being hotels or apartments which could explain the change.
That has apparently changed.
It was taken over last year and is no longer being run as an Aparthotel, it is now being run as luxury rental apartments.
Full details are here (http://www.golf-del-sur.com/hotels-rental-accommodation/el-nautico) on the Golf Del Sur website
That website also states Winter Gardens is "perfect for those wishing for a relaxing holiday" - doesn't mention the illegal part...
Yes Andy but that sentence isn't saying the people are staying at wintergardens, just that those staying nearby can enjoy it!!!! Lol
Angusjim
08-01-2012, 12:09
If my company were to buy an apartment on a residential complex as an "investment" and then allowed shareholders / directors / clients / employees to use it completely free of charge would it be classed as "illegal renting".
Is it illegal for touristic complexes to have Sky tv installed on the complex as I noted at Susetbay they have noted in the welcome book that there is no Sky TV as it is illegal to install it in the complex ?
Is it illegal for touristic complexes to have Sky tv installed on the complex as I noted at Susetbay they have noted in the welcome book that there is no Sky TV as it is illegal to install it in the complex ?
Could it be that it was thought to be illegal until a pub landlady took them to court in Europe and won.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045029/Pub-landlady-Karen-Murphy-wins-EU-fight-screen-Premier-League-football.html
Re TV
The legality of TV is another Tenerife grey area. It is not illegal to receive any TV broadcast from any country in the world for yourself. For example, If you install a Sat Dish and using it can receive BBC/ITV etc., then that is your good fortune.
It is however illegal for you to redistribute your signal to your neighbours and charge them for doing so.
It is also illegal to take out a subscription to any of Sky's paid-for services outside of the UK even if you use a UK address for the subscription.
It is not unusual for an hotel and some complexes to receive free-to-air channels via their own dishes and redistribute it to rooms and this would not necessarily be an issue for the broadcasters, however, if those channels were being received from the "illegal" services here, such as those from Gomera or Guaza then since the source is illegal the redistribution is more illegal than if the channels were being received via dish on the building.
Any rebroadcasting of any paid for service, such as Sky Sports, Sky 1, Atlantic etc.... is illegal full stop and Sky themselves would be mightilly unhappy!
If my company were to buy an apartment on a residential complex as an "investment" and then allowed shareholders / directors / clients / employees to use it completely free of charge would it be classed as "illegal renting".
It's not illegal renting so long as yjr company is not providing accommdotion to the public for a price:
"Tourist activities are are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price."
So for sake of argument lets say that your shareholders haven't paid for their shares in the company. next we as is the accommodation offered liberally and of a temporary form without the person changing their permanent address:
"It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence (source 9)."
Well, in your case it is not been offered liberally, only to those people within your company but they will not be of permanent residence and therefore they are using the accommodation as tourist accommodation.
The law also defines a tourist in Article 15:
"A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
So bottom line is, nice try but no.
A happy New Year to all my Tenerife friends!!
So the year is over and our inspectors have had such a busy year. Let's look at their progress.
Now bear in mind, their primary objective for 2011 was to stop all holiday letting in residential properties in the Canaries.
Latest figures show an increase since 20/11/11 of 227 properties in the Canaries being advertised on the 3 main rental websites, just 7 weeks ago. Overall, this is an increase of 960 properties over the year, although some of these will be for properties advertised on other websites. And this on only 3 websites - hundreds more.
Now some of the owners of residential properties have been fined, so we believe. Has anyone actually paid anything? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer is no - except in fees to a Tenerife lawyer. Incidently, lawyers in Lanzarote are still advertising their own properties on these websites, even stating they are lawyers in their profiles!
So, a year's hard work has achieved a substantial overall INCREASE in residential property tourism in the Canaries - borne out by the large increase in official visitor numbers to the islands over the year. Some properties have been taken off the market by a few owners, but plenty more are replacing them.
As I've said before, a great bit of flag flying by the tourism authorities but in reality, achieving what they set out to achieve - no reduction in tourism. Who was it said they were stupid? No wonder the media don't want to know. There is no story.
The clampdown continues.
Santiago
10-01-2012, 15:23
As I've said before, a great bit of flag flying by the tourism authorities but in reality, achieving what they set out to achieve - no reduction in tourism. Who was it said they were stupid? No wonder the media don't want to know. There is no story.
The clampdown continues.
Yes, indeed, they are really very clever. In order to increase tourism, they have publicised the situation and allowed a lot more residential owners to consider letting as it would appear that no one will do anything about it. A win/win situation for both sides don't you think?
delderek
10-01-2012, 19:45
A happy New Year to all my Tenerife friends!!
So the year is over and our inspectors have had such a busy year. Let's look at their progress.
Now bear in mind, their primary objective for 2011 was to stop all holiday letting in residential properties in the Canaries.
Latest figures show an increase since 20/11/11 of 227 properties in the Canaries being advertised on the 3 main rental websites, just 7 weeks ago. Overall, this is an increase of 960 properties over the year, although some of these will be for properties advertised on other websites. And this on only 3 websites - hundreds more.
Now some of the owners of residential properties have been fined, so we believe. Has anyone actually paid anything? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer is no - except in fees to a Tenerife lawyer. Incidently, lawyers in Lanzarote are still advertising their own properties on these websites, even stating they are lawyers in their profiles!
So, a year's hard work has achieved a substantial overall INCREASE in residential property tourism in the Canaries - borne out by the large increase in official visitor numbers to the islands over the year. Some properties have been taken off the market by a few owners, but plenty more are replacing them.
As I've said before, a great bit of flag flying by the tourism authorities but in reality, achieving what they set out to achieve - no reduction in tourism. Who was it said they were stupid? No wonder the media don't want to know. There is no story.
The clampdown continues.
Don't think so, it's a revenue raising exercise, and 7000 fines at average 18000 euros, is a nice income.
Even a blind man knows the sun is shining
or that he is wee-ing into the wind
A happy New Year to all my Tenerife friends!!
So the year is over and our inspectors have had such a busy year. Let's look at their progress.
Now bear in mind, their primary objective for 2011 was to stop all holiday letting in residential properties in the Canaries.
Latest figures show an increase since 20/11/11 of 227 properties in the Canaries being advertised on the 3 main rental websites, just 7 weeks ago. Overall, this is an increase of 960 properties over the year, although some of these will be for properties advertised on other websites. And this on only 3 websites - hundreds more.
Now some of the owners of residential properties have been fined, so we believe. Has anyone actually paid anything? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the answer is no - except in fees to a Tenerife lawyer. Incidently, lawyers in Lanzarote are still advertising their own properties on these websites, even stating they are lawyers in their profiles!
So, a year's hard work has achieved a substantial overall INCREASE in residential property tourism in the Canaries - borne out by the large increase in official visitor numbers to the islands over the year. Some properties have been taken off the market by a few owners, but plenty more are replacing them.
As I've said before, a great bit of flag flying by the tourism authorities but in reality, achieving what they set out to achieve - no reduction in tourism. Who was it said they were stupid? No wonder the media don't want to know. There is no story.
The clampdown continues.
Happy new year hughsyb!
The delusion continues!
Hughsby ... it was stated by Turismo that it was a plan to identify all illegal beds ... and it is not just a one year plan :(
Considering the amount of potential owners that the inspectors could see its highly unlikely that they ever conceived that it would be completed by the end of the year...and there are plenty of property owners who are still trying to sell up because they still see it as a risk.
seanocelt
14-01-2012, 11:17
I just got an email from a lady i rented from 3 years ago. She has pulled her ad from the internet , and is asking if i have anyone looking to rent to contact her via email. She also states how worried she, and many on her complex are, loans to pay etc.
I think Hughsby's figures are skewed too, repeat ads from the same renters etc. Depsite the rise in numbers he says are advertised, when i do searches for Los Cristianos, there is much less availability, so a bumper year or ads have gone!
It's nice to have Hughsby back though - innit!! ??
Hughsby ... it was stated by Turismo that it was a plan to identify all illegal beds ... and it is not just a one year plan :(
You're wasting your breath Doreen
He only sees and hears what he wants to see and hear.
He ignores everything that doesn't match his views.
There will be no fines -7000 fines later he still says there will be none, nobody has paid anything yet being a classic example.
In fairness he always said a few owners will be fined, but even so 7000 is more than a few!
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 13:38
It's not illegal renting so long as yjr company is not providing accommdotion to the public for a price:
"Tourist activities are are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price."
So for sake of argument lets say that your shareholders haven't paid for their shares in the company. next we as is the accommodation offered liberally and of a temporary form without the person changing their permanent address:
"It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence (source 9)."
Well, in your case it is not been offered liberally, only to those people within your company but they will not be of permanent residence and therefore they are using the accommodation as tourist accommodation.
The law also defines a tourist in Article 15:
"A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
So bottom line is, nice try but no.
So back to the drawing board then !! but one thing about a company owning an apartment I assume all shareholders and their families would be entitled to use the apartment without any problem as and when they wanted
So back to the drawing board then !! but one thing about a company owning an apartment I assume all shareholders and their families would be entitled to use the apartment without any problem as and when they wanted
I found something else about this: Although my initial argument seems to make it impossible there's also a law specifically for this kind of thing; Decreto 272/1997 which is here: http://www.gobcan.es/libroazul/pdf/29541.pdf - ALOJAMIENTOS EN RÉGIMEN DE USO A TIEMPO COMPARTIDO (accommodation in a regime of shared time):
Artículo 2. A los efectos de este Reglamento, se entiende por servicio de alojamientos turísticos en régimen de uso a tiempo compartido, la actividad turística alojativa que, por cualquiera de los medios permitidos por el ordenamiento jurídico, faculte la utilización sucesiva de un mismo alojamiento por personas que lo comparten por períodos de tiempo iguales o superiores a una semana.
Artículo 3. Los usuarios de la actividad descrita en este Reglamento tendrán la consideración de “usuario turístico” o “turista” a los efectos previstos en la Ley 7/1995, de 6 de abril, de Ordena -ción del Turismo de Canarias (1).
(google ) Translated means:
Item 2. For the purposes of this regulation, the term tourist accommodation service under a time-share use, tourism accommodation that, by any means permitted by law, authorizing the use of successive one accommodation for people is shared by time period equal to or greater than one week.
Item 3. Users of the activity described in this Regulation shall be considered "user tour" or "tourist" for the purposes provided in Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, order-tion of the Turismo de Canarias (1).
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 14:03
I found something else about this: Although my initial argument seems to make it impossible there's also a law specifically for this kind of thing; Decreto 272/1997 which is here: http://www.gobcan.es/libroazul/pdf/29541.pdf - ALOJAMIENTOS EN RÉGIMEN DE USO A TIEMPO COMPARTIDO (accommodation in a regime of shared time):
Artículo 2. A los efectos de este Reglamento, se entiende por servicio de alojamientos turísticos en régimen de uso a tiempo compartido, la actividad turística alojativa que, por cualquiera de los medios permitidos por el ordenamiento jurídico, faculte la utilización sucesiva de un mismo alojamiento por personas que lo comparten por períodos de tiempo iguales o superiores a una semana.
Artículo 3. Los usuarios de la actividad descrita en este Reglamento tendrán la consideración de “usuario turístico” o “turista” a los efectos previstos en la Ley 7/1995, de 6 de abril, de Ordena -ción del Turismo de Canarias (1).
(google ) Translated means:
Item 2. For the purposes of this regulation, the term tourist accommodation service under a time-share use, tourism accommodation that, by any means permitted by law, authorizing the use of successive one accommodation for people is shared by time period equal to or greater than one week.
Item 3. Users of the activity described in this Regulation shall be considered "user tour" or "tourist" for the purposes provided in Law 7 / 1995 of April 6, order-tion of the Turismo de Canarias (1).
Loaded you will have to bear with me on this, am I getting this correct that they would treat this as basically being time share by another name and therfore is not permitted
Angusjim
15-01-2012, 14:46
yes indeedy
So here's another batch of people who are now illegal in Tenerife families and / or friends who have clubbed together and bought a part share in an apartment. What will they be fined for ?? :spin:
Hughsby ... it was stated by Turismo that it was a plan to identify all illegal beds ... and it is not just a one year plan :(
If this was a plan to identify illegal beds, they could have done it on their very first morning – Google Tenerife villas and apartments, Lanzarote villas and apartments etc.
If this was a plan to identify ALL illegal beds – that’s impossible.
You're wasting your breath Doreen
He only sees and hears what he wants to see and hear.
He ignores everything that doesn't match his views.
There will be no fines -7000 fines later he still says there will be none, nobody has paid anything yet being a classic example.
On the contrary, I have only stated fact.
As has been pointed out, I stated many months ago that fines would be issued - fact.
None of these fines have been paid - fact.
The number of illegal beds has INCREASED in the past year - fact.
Despite people stating on here, quite correctly, that implementation of the law would have catastrophic consequences for the economy of the islands, tourism has grown by 15-20% in the past year - fact.
Despite the implementation of the law having catastrophic consequences for the economy of the islands, the media don't want to know - fact.
If anyone would like to dispute these facts, please do so.
yes indeedy
Are you sure, Loaded ... that 1997 decree seems to be solely about Time Sharing - go on to Art.4 and it specifies that such accommodation must consist of at least 10 units etc.
I cannot see how people who have jointly or severally bought an apartment can fall foul of the Inspectorate ... as long as there is no one charging for it's use, bar the normal running costs.
Ok:
Holiday Lettings screen grab from Oct 2010 before the clamp down: http://web.archive.org/web/20101012075116/http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/tenerife/ = 939 properties advertised in Tenerife.
Holiday Lettings today: http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/tenerife/ = 780 properties
So your "fact" that the adverts have increased does not seem to be true
Sorry, I thought this was a Canary Islands law and a Canary Islands clampdown?
Are you sure, Loaded ... that 1997 decree seems to be solely about Time Sharing - go on to Art.4 and it specifies that such accommodation must consist of at least 10 units etc.
I cannot see how people who have jointly or severally bought an apartment can fall foul of the Inspectorate ... as long as there is no one charging for it's use, bar the normal running costs.
Article 4 does say that there must be at least 10 units, so I would say my previous argument applies.
Article 4 does say that there must be at least 10 units, so I would say my previous argument applies.
That's 10 units where the ownership is shared, which is not what AngusJim has in mind :)
Sorry, I thought this was a Canary Islands law and a Canary Islands clampdown?
Ok:
In the canary islands advertised on holiday lettings (only site I can get the way back when machine to crawl)
Oct 2010 = 1955
Nov 2010 = 2001
Dec 2010 = 2026
Clamp down begins Jan 2011
April 2011 = 2042 properties
Jan 2012 = 1974 properties
These are the only available snap shots between oct 2010 and present day.
I think what this shows is that people continued to advertise and sign up to HL several months into 2011. Obviously something has happened between April 2011 and present day because 78 properties accross the islands have pulled there ads.
It's important to remember that awareness of these laws is still only just filtering through to some owners which you can tell by the amount of new posters who come on here having only just researched it.
Whats also interesting is the following stats for Tenerife ONLY:
Oct 2010 = 935 properties
nov 2010 = 934
Dec 2010 = 944
clamp down begins
april 2011 = 926
Today 780
If we compare the 6 islands advertised from then to now too it's interesting:
Oct 2010
Fuerteventura: 313
GC 113
La Gomera 19
Las Palmas 6
Lanzarote: 569
Tenerife: 935
Total: 1955
Nov 2010 similar scores alround an increase to 2026
then now:
Fuerte: 351
GC 139
La Gomera 10
Las Palmas: 5
Lanzarote: 689
Teneirfe : 780
Lanazarate seems to be the worst offender for new ads where Tenerife seems to be the island who has pulled more ads. Could this be due to the TENERIFE FORUM creating awareness among the brits?
That's 10 units where the ownership is shared, which is not what AngusJim has in mind :)
I mean my arguement previous to the posting of timeshare laws.
Ok:
Lanazarate seems to be the worst offender for new ads where Tenerife seems to be the island who has pulled more ads. Could this be due to the TENERIFE FORUM creating awareness among the brits?
This has been discussed widely on other island forums, but quite rightly no one's taking any notice there despite posters on here saying they are now targeting villas in Lanzarote.
From my own files......
Holiday Rentals February 2011 - Tenerife 1230 properties
Holiday Rentals January 2012- Tenerife 1331 properties
Whats that? You want a graph? ok
2172
@Hughsby
You say the media have ignored the "clampdown" and fines - this is just not so on the islands - it's been widely reported in the English free press and radio and to an extent in the Spanish press too - not sure about their radio.
The reality would seem to be though that the UK press are significantly less interested, perhaps because the effect of the clampdown in terms of the reduction of available "illegal" beds is not that interesting? The majority of tourists looking for self catering holidays have no specific knowledge of whether an apartment is legal or illegal - they just want to come here, so they go on the net and book. There are some, but it is a relatively small number in the scheme of things, who want to return year after year to the apartment they are familiar with who have now found it is no longer available - these people, and the owners of the apartments concerned are being the most vocal at the moment certainly.
@Hughsby
You say the media have ignored the "clampdown" and fines - this is just not so on the islands - it's been widely reported in the English free press and radio and to an extent in the Spanish press too - not sure about their radio.
Nonsense. Nothing at all in the Lanzarote or Fuerteventura media, Spanish and British.
If this was just a big issue as is being made out on here, the British press and TV would have picked up on it long ago. Do you think thousands of people losing their holidays isn't a massive story?
Not to mention the thousands of job losses in the islands, and Ryanair pulling out.
but Ryan air aren't pulling out, you said yourself tourism is up
But that's because the authorities are just tinkering around! Do you really think they can pull the plug on Ryanair's main market and expect them to keep bases and carry on flying here?
The Goldfish in the Bowl
Goes round round round
round round round
round round round
The Goldfish in the Bowl
Goes round round round
All day Long
cheers
xx
On the contrary my friend. It's you who needs to get out of your own goldfish bowl and see what is happening on other Canarian islands apart from your own to get a better understanding of the situation.
what situation? nothings happening remember?
Tom & Sharon
15-01-2012, 17:04
On the contrary my friend. It's you who needs to get out of your own goldfish bowl and see what is happening on other Canarian islands apart from your own to get a better understanding of the situation.
But you keep telling us there is nothing happening on the other islands.;)
Glad you're back,its a pleasure to read the drivel typed on your keyboard whilst your head is in the sand,keep it up it revives this thread :fpull:
what situation? nothings happening remember?
Naughty! You're puting words in my mouth. A few owners/companies have been fined in Tenerife. I've always said some fines will be issued.
yeah but there's a differnece between a few/some and several hundred / several thousand
But you keep telling us there is nothing happening on the other islands.;)
Glad you're back,its a pleasure to read the drivel typed on your keyboard whilst your head is in the sand,keep it up it revives this thread :fpull:
I wasn't referring to any implementation of the law. I was referring to the way other islands have developed over the past 10/15 years in comparison to Tenerife, and how their tourist economy is now so reliant on people staying in residential properties.
By the way, I notice you've taken off your banner saying you are looking forward to a summer without any pesky holidaymaking kids with crocodiles. Given up? How did the denuncia go?
The Tenerifeforum Sweatshop
Pick & Mix
Self service
x
7000 plus some ?
So 7000+ owners/companies have received fines? So I assume 7000+ properties have been withdrawn from the rental market in Tenerife by the appropriate owners/companies, plus all the others I'm being told which have been withdrawn by owners scared of receiving fines? Resulting in thousands and thousands of cancelled holidays as a result.
Right .:rolleyes:
Tom & Sharon
15-01-2012, 17:39
I wasn't referring to any implementation of the law. I was referring to the way other islands have developed over the past 10/15 years in comparison to Tenerife, and how their tourist economy is now so reliant on people staying in residential properties.
By the way, I notice you've taken off your banner saying you are looking forward to a summer without any pesky holidaymaking kids with crocodiles. Given up? How did the denuncia go?
No the 'signatures' still below,our AGM is on Tuesday so we will see if the THREE remaining owners who are still ILLEGALLY commercially renting out their apartments attend?
Incidentally our community is a new community as it's only three years old,and we are trying to 'nip in the bud' the ILLEGAL commercial renting for the sake of the residents on a residential community,we are not trying to wipe out a practice that has existed for many many years,although we would if we had to!!
The denuncia served by a private individual on another owner on our community has been served and our complex has been inspected by the authorities,and we believe the owner has been informed of their fine,It may be discussed at the AGM,we will keep the forum informed of the outcome.
Keep posting,you brighten up our day ;)
Right where's Nelson :dontknow::dontknow:
So 7000+ owners/companies have received fines? So I assume 7000+ properties have been withdrawn from the rental market in Tenerife by the appropriate owners/companies, plus all the others I'm being told which have been withdrawn by owners scared of receiving fines? Resulting in thousands and thousands of cancelled holidays as a result.
Right .:rolleyes:
IT's not just Tenerife it's the whole of the islands remember (lol)!
and who said they were all advertising?
Putting words in his mouth...........................pfft
IT's not just Tenerife it's the whole of the islands remember (lol)!
and who said they were all advertising?
There are no reports of anyone being fined on Lanzarote or Tenerife, and Lanzarote especially being a much smaller island, any news travels very fast. I was there for 2 weeks over Christmas talking to many owners and agents. And my lawyer, who rents out her villa!
what? no reports of anyone in Tenerife being fined????????????????????????????????????????????? ????
please Hughsyb: watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lRIQGU2RRk
Sorry, that should read Fuerteventura of course. My edit button doesn't work.
still watch the video, we need Bull***** man on you regardless.
I just keep reporting facts, but no one can provide any evidence to dispute them. :tiphat:
apart from your figures? You keep saying more are advertising now than before the inspectors came in.
What you've said is true.............. and false....... depending on from when you take the reading, if you read it from OCt 2010 compared to now then you're right but if you take it from dec 10 to now you're wrong and I'm right - both readings are from before the inspection clampdown.
Be very careful when using stats. If you take stats and use them to illustrate your own biased point of view - and then get caught out like today - then that will make people not trust you and not believe your "facts".
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Added after 2 minutes:
and just because you say "FACT" after every claim doesn't make it fact. And the way you speak of your claims in the way you do, ie: "I'm just reporting facts" then you slip into bull**** man mode.
Watch me, I can do it too; and it's a well known fact that everyone knows that the statistics show that this is what will happen - fact.
it's how bad lawyers try and get points across.
Added after 4 minutes:
"no one can provide any evidence to dispute them (your facts)"
But I already have, see my stats comparing dec 2010 to jan 2012 on HL showing less adverts in Canaries now than before the clampdown
and then get caught out like today
Sorry, but where exactly have I been caught out?
Sorry, but where exactly have I been caught out?
You spout "facts" such as "more are advertising in canaries than before the law" and you take figures that suit that claim. I've found figures that contradict that claim so you're just using stats are showing you're viewpoint and not the true overview.
2177 here's all the stats from oct 2010 to now from Holiday lettings, you just chose the months that suited you so your "facts" could be posted.
You spout "facts" such as "more are advertising in canaries than before the law" and you take figures that suit that claim. I've found figures that contradict that claim so you're just using stats are showing you're viewpoint and not the true overview.
I have always from the very start a year ago, provided figures for the Canaries taken from the 3 main websites. In February 2011, there were 6973 properties being advertised in the Canaries. Now there are 7753.
Where are your figures for the Canaries for the 3 main websites which have caught me out? Taking 1 website and one area of the Canaries on it's own and claiming it to be representative and "catching me out" is not on.
I've taken my figures from the only place that other people can check their accuracy. I don't trust your counting because I don't trust you. My figures are from the way back machine and anyone can verify my figures - they can't verify yours.
I've taken my figures from the only place that other people can check their accuracy. I don't trust your counting because I don't trust you. My figures are from the way back machine and anyone can verify my figures - they can't verify yours.
Trust me or not - doesn't really bother me. But if you think I'd risk posting made up figures every few weeks over the past year, which can be quickly checked with 2 or 3 clicks of a mouse, more fool you.
Jimmyhow
15-01-2012, 19:59
Somewhere somebody has got their maths wrong.
The peak total for the holiday rental sites across all the islands that I have seen quoted is approx. 7,700 yet 7000 fines have been issued? Doesn’t seem right although the inspectors will have other sources of info i.e. local agents and the like.
These inspectors must be good to achieve 91% success rate from the websites particularly as a lot of owners don’t include names, addresses etc. and only put mobile phone numbers on. Surely they will have to match the website details to the info supllied by the administrators.
Did the original notification of the closed meeting on Janet ********’s web site not say that 7,000 fines were pending – not had been issued?
On our complex there must be over 60 apartments advertising but to date only 12 fines have been issued (20%) and these only relate to offences that occurred in October 2010. I do know from conversations with other owners that because their letters were not collected from the post office they were sent to their UK addresses as well as being posted on the bulletins.
The inspectors visited again in May/June but none of the fines relate to this period so these must still be pending.
Yes I think it was 7000 investigated but much less fines issued, I'm on my phone so someone else can check .
Worth pointing out that they weren't just using online ads as proof
Somewhere somebody has got their maths wrong.
The peak total for the holiday rental sites across all the islands that I have seen quoted is approx. 7,700 yet 7000 fines have been issued?
Jimmyhow, the figure of 7,700 is just from the 3 largest rental websites. There are hundreds more websites with thousands more properties. I believe the authorities estimate is 400,000 illegal beds.
I've taken my figures from the only place that other people can check their accuracy. I don't trust your counting because I don't trust you. My figures are from the way back machine and anyone can verify my figures - they can't verify yours.
I would also take into account that the figures are actually inflated by the same properties being on several websites, I personally know one property which appears on at least 4 different websites which leads me to believe that the figures for the number of properties being advertised is actually lower than the figures which are being argued over.
yes I think it's safe to say most owners advertise on more than one site - even more reason to take figures from one website
I would also take into account that the figures are actually inflated by the same properties being on several websites, I personally know one property which appears on at least 4 different websites which leads me to believe that the figures for the number of properties being advertised is actually lower than the figures which are being argued over.
MrB, you really need to pay attention. I said on post 2538........
"Overall, this is an increase of 960 properties over the year, although some of these will be for properties advertised on other websites"
yes I think it's safe to say most owners advertise on more than one site - even more reason to take figures from one website.
What strange logic? Most people would say the larger the sample the more representative, not the other way round. ???
Not when a lot of owners advertise on all 3 of the big ones plus a load of smaller ones, you're just counting the same advertisers 3 or 4 or 5 times
For what its worth, I suspect the next thing we will possibly see is multiple fines.
Hughsby has asked a few times whether any fines have been paid - I suspect the answer is no. Those who have appealed will be going on the the second appeal and so on. The fines that have been confirmed in the BOC however have been confirmed just by their appearance. Of course that doesn't mean any cash will change hands, the fines will end attached to the property which can arguably remain there for many years.
The way forward to raise actual funds will probably be to re-fine those confirmed in the BOC if they are still on web sites, and possibly even fine again, to the point where the property can be totally embargoed and sold by the Inspectorate.
This situation has the potential of getting quite nasty, and of course then the (UK) media will start shouting loudly.
willowlily
16-01-2012, 20:47
For what its worth, I suspect the next thing we will possibly see is multiple fines.
Hughsby has asked a few times whether any fines have been paid - I suspect the answer is no. Those who have appealed will be going on the the second appeal and so on. The fines that have been confirmed in the BOC however have been confirmed just by their appearance. Of course that doesn't mean any cash will change hands, the fines will end attached to the property which can arguably remain there for many years.
The way forward to raise actual funds will probably be to re-fine those confirmed in the BOC if they are still on web sites, and possibly even fine again, to the point where the property can be totally embargoed and sold by the Inspectorate.
This situation has the potential of getting quite nasty, and of course then the (UK) media will start shouting loudly.
the uk media are always shouting about devastated people who have bought properties abroad without considering all legal aspects, most people in the uk will have no sympathy because buyer beware is really common sense.
if you mean the media scare will make the british public think twice about
coming to tenerife thats another story but i suspect tenerife is so popular with the uk population they will find a way around these problems
the uk media are always shouting about devastated people who have bought properties abroad without considering all legal aspects, most people in the uk will have no sympathy because buyer beware is really common sense.
if you mean the media scare will make the british public think twice about
coming to tenerife thats another story but i suspect tenerife is so popular with the uk population they will find a way around these problems
Yes a Tourist Complex :yum:
Not when a lot of owners advertise on all 3 of the big ones plus a load of smaller ones, you're just counting the same advertisers 3 or 4 or 5 times
Again showing complete ignorance of what is happening elsewhere in the Canaries.
This is the TENERIFE FORUM - or maybe that has escaped your notice - could explain why most of the posts on this issue are TENERIFE biased
Just a thought
For what its worth, I suspect the next thing we will possibly see is multiple fines.
The way forward to raise actual funds will probably be to re-fine those confirmed in the BOC if they are still on web sites, and possibly even fine again, to the point where the property can be totally embargoed and sold by the Inspectorate.
Classic! A cracking start to Muppet's Fairytales of 2012! :c2:
Added after 2 minutes:
This is the TENERIFE FORUM - or maybe that has escaped your notice - could explain why most of the posts on this issue are TENERIFE biased
Just a thought
And it's a Canarian law which applies to all islands, which is why you can't apply the law differently.
Classic! A cracking start to Muppet's Fairytales of 2012! :c2:
Added after 2 minutes:
And it's a Canarian law which applies to all islands, which is why you can't apply the law differently.
Go away .....
Again showing complete ignorance of what is happening elsewhere in the Canaries.
Sorry but where in my comment that you quoted did I say anything that was Tenerife only?
Because you are taking one website and claiming it to represent what is happening in the Canaries. If you knew what was happening on other islands, you would realise that website isn't typical.
Tourism figures are up.
These figures are collected monthly from legally registered hotels & apartments - not the illegal one's. Shows that more visitors are staying where they are supposed too!
For what its worth, I suspect the next thing we will possibly see is multiple fines.
Hughsby has asked a few times whether any fines have been paid - I suspect the answer is no. Those who have appealed will be going on the the second appeal and so on. The fines that have been confirmed in the BOC however have been confirmed just by their appearance. Of course that doesn't mean any cash will change hands, the fines will end attached to the property which can arguably remain there for many years.
The way forward to raise actual funds will probably be to re-fine those confirmed in the BOC if they are still on web sites, and possibly even fine again, to the point where the property can be totally embargoed and sold by the Inspectorate.
This situation has the potential of getting quite nasty, and of course then the (UK) media will start shouting loudly.
Would surely depress the property market even more??
Tourism figures are up.
These figures are collected monthly from legally registered hotels & apartments - not the illegal one's. Shows that more visitors are staying where they are supposed too!
OK, explain this then.
There has been a significant increase in the amount of air travel in the Canary Islands with the Gran Canaria airport beating its records with 10.5 million passengers (an increase of 11.1%) during the 2011 period and positioning itself in 5th place in Spain, according to figures release by AENA. The airport of Fuerteventura saw a rise of 18.6% handling 4.9 million passengers as did Tenerife Souths Reina Sofia airport, with 8.6 million passengers (17.6% increase). Lanzarote also saw its air passenger numbers increase by 12.3%.
Canariesnews 12/1/12
Occupancy levels in Lanzarote hotels and apartments reached an average of 77% throughout 2011, according to the island hoteliers association Asolan. This translates as an increase of 7.73% in comparison with figures for 2010.
Lanzarote Guidebook 11/1/12
These are Lanzarote occupancy figures but I believe Tenerife's are much the same if someone can dig them out.
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
The figures are for tourists in touristic accommodation, all I was stating is that legal accommodation is up. Posible the rest of the people arriving at the airport are owners!!
The clampdown continues and next year the tourist figures will be higher as more legal accommodation will be occupied and more private owners hide from the authorities.
all I was stating is that legal accommodation is up.
Yes legal accommodation is up, but the figures show illegal accommodation is up by much more.
Yes legal accommodation is up, but the figures show illegal accommodation is up by much more.
And the percentage increase in fines are massive for 2011 :c2::c2::c2::c2:
Yes legal accommodation is up, but the figures show illegal accommodation is up by much more.
Er - sorry ?? where exactly are the official figures for illegal accomodation - talk about fairy tales. Of course the airport figures are higher than the legal letting / hotel figures - people live here,go home to see family at Christmas, or family come here to see them - none more so than Mainlanders and Canarians too.
Bottom line is that gradually you will see a decline in illegal apartments being advertised on the net, people will still come - for the time being at least and nobody will die
Added after 11 minutes:
Would surely depress the property market even more??
That may well be, but the attachment of fines/debts to property with the ultimate possibility of embargo is the way it works here, and in many other European countries.
If you consider that the primary reason for the implimentation of the law now is due to a serious cash-flow issue at Canaries HQ, they only way to realise the fine money owed in actual cash would be to pursue to the bitter end. It's pretty clear the Government won't back down - they've reduced the fines a little to those who have appealed against them in the first instance so as to be seen to be being fair and considerate in the courts as and when that day arrives, but until the see any actual cash, rather than a big list of ceditors HQs position in terms of money to spend is not improved.
How do they realise the fines? Simple, issue multiple fines for re-offenders until the debt owed is greater than the value of the property to which it is attached.
Logical way forward I fear, particularly in the case of those who are not appealing because they didnt receive notification of the fines and have now been published in the BOC
Hi, I am sorry but have been looking at this site for a while now, and suddenly I have recieved a voucher from the Correos stating I have a letter waiting for me, unfortunately it was dated at the begining of October so wont be there now, I have been informed it may be a fine as i appear to fall into the category, my question is, Is there antwhere i can find a list of properties that have recieved fines.I know its speculative but i wasnt expecting a letter at that time
Cheers
Er - sorry ?? where exactly are the official figures for illegal accomodation - talk about fairy tales. Of course the airport figures are higher than the legal letting / hotel figures - people live here,go home to see family at Christmas, or family come here to see them - none more so than Mainlanders and Canarians too.
I think you need a few lessons on simple maths my friend.
We are talking percentages here, comparing one year to another. So the figures for 2010 included residents flying home, family coming here, business people etc., just the same as the figures for 2011 do. If the legal accommodation has increased by say 10% over the year, and visitor numbers are say 17% up, then to maintain the 17% figure, illegal letting (and the tiny number of residents/family etc in comparison included in that) must have risen by far more than 17%.
How do they realise the fines? Simple, issue multiple fines for re-offenders until the debt owed is greater than the value of the property to which it is attached.
Do you ever sit down and think through these made up scenarios? Who are the biggest losers if such an action was taken? Not the owners who have handed back keys long ago, but the banks. So the authorities are going to sell on properties resulting in a loss of billions of euros by the banks? :duh:
golf birdie
17-01-2012, 18:28
Do you ever sit down and think through these made up scenarios? Who are the biggest losers if such an action was taken? Not the owners who have handed back keys long ago, but the banks. So the authorities are going to sell on properties resulting in a loss of billions of euros by the banks? :duh:
the 1st call on any property with a loan against it is to the people who issued the loan, plus even the banks don't want most properties back as the costs involved can be huge. So even if the goverment went down this road, it would be a long one and the costs would be huge.
Jimmyhow
17-01-2012, 18:51
Hi, I am sorry but have been looking at this site for a while now, and suddenly I have recieved a voucher from the Correos stating I have a letter waiting for me, unfortunately it was dated at the begining of October so wont be there now, I have been informed it may be a fine as i appear to fall into the category, my question is, Is there antwhere i can find a list of properties that have recieved fines.I know its speculative but i wasnt expecting a letter at that time
Cheers
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2011/224/
Hi Badger
Think you need to put your NIE no. into Google search engine
to see if you have been fined.
Then search the boletins around that date using the above link. If you search "archivo" at the top of the page and then search fines relating to "tourismo" in each daily boletin.
Peterrayner
17-01-2012, 19:11
How do they realise the fines? Simple, issue multiple fines for re-offenders until the debt owed is greater than the value of the property to which it is attached.
Logical way forward I fear, particularly in the case of those who are not appealing because they didnt receive notification of the fines and have now been published in the BOC
I am not sure your logic is well founded. My understanding is that fines notified to date have been based mainly on website advertising with published availability/bookings so providing the owners remove any such public advertising then mulitples fines should not apply.
The evidence stated here is that many such adverts have already been removed.
I understand also that those listed on the Boletins are still entitled to lodge appeals within 15 days of the date of the listing.
welshman
17-01-2012, 19:25
Any further information regarding meeting this month?
If the hotels are that full perhaps they will back off illegal letters. :whistle::whistle:
I am not sure your logic is well founded. My understanding is that fines notified to date have been based mainly on website advertising with published availability/bookings so providing the owners remove any such public advertising then mulitples fines should not apply.
The evidence stated here is that many such adverts have already been removed.
I understand also that those listed on the Boletins are still entitled to lodge appeals within 15 days of the date of the listing.
Clearly the owner would have to continue to break the law in order to receive subsequent fines - as always once in the firing line they know who you are.
I don't think Hughsby would agree properties have been removed from websites - he has just spent several pages telling us the numbers are increasing.
As for the Boletin - unless those concerned have been here or other places it seems very very few people know about it, let alone where to find it. Suggest their 15 days are well expired
Anyway
Over and out
Peterrayner
17-01-2012, 19:34
Hi, I am sorry but have been looking at this site for a while now, and suddenly I have recieved a voucher from the Correos stating I have a letter waiting for me, unfortunately it was dated at the begining of October so wont be there now, I have been informed it may be a fine as i appear to fall into the category, my question is, Is there antwhere i can find a list of properties that have recieved fines.I know its speculative but i wasnt expecting a letter at that time
Cheers
You can check here
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/
change the top search box to 2011 then put your full NIE number in the second box without any hyphens using all letters and numbers and if you have been listed in the Boletins it should show up. Repeat this for 2012.
I don't think Hughsby would agree properties have been removed from websites - he has just spent several pages telling us the numbers are increasing.
You need to pay attention again. I stated in post 2538........
"Some properties have been taken off the market by a few owners."
Peterrayner
17-01-2012, 19:48
You need to pay attention again. I stated in post 2538........
"Some properties have been taken off the market by a few owners."
I can only speak for Tenerife based advertising and of that only for the Oasis del Sur Entity of Los Cristianos where I would estmate that some 90% of previous internet ads on the most popular well known websites have been removed over the past 12 months.
In the context of 400,000 illegal beds, the number of properties withdrawn is a few.
And are some still renting out? I bet they are!
I think what you'll find is that areas where there have been inspections will result in decrease in advertisers, for example look on holiday lettings how many there are in oasis del sur now compared to dec 2010.
Yet there are still illegal renters advertising on paloma beach because the inspection team havent really been round after their initial enquiry
Peterrayner
17-01-2012, 20:25
The figure of 400,000 beds IMO includes residential and touristic sites. It is clearly possible to be illegally renting on both types of complex. So this estimate must include both types.
400,000 is the number of estimated BEDS. Not the total of owners or properties. Some properties will be 1 bed but many others others will be multiples beds some as high as 6 or 8 beds per property.
7500 "investigations" to date would also represent only a relatively small number of individual complexes.
Ours for example is over 200 apartments and they must have "investigated" them all to establish which are in breech of the law.
So taking 100 apartments as an average size complex this represents a total of only 70 complexes and even if this is only for Tenerife that must be a small percentage of the total number available.
Jimmyhow
18-01-2012, 13:46
I’ve just been checking back through the BOC boletins and noticed that no fines have been issued by tourismo for illegal letting since 14th December which, if my memory serves me right, is the day before the previously arranged consultation meeting which did not take place. Is this just coincidence?
Secondly, all of the fines relate to offences which occurred in or prior to April 2011 which would suggest there are still numerous fines pending presumably awaiting the outcome of the meeting at the end of January – if this is still on?
I don't think it will have anything to do with the timing of either meeting - I wouldn't read anything into it
Angusjim
18-01-2012, 14:12
That's 10 units where the ownership is shared, which is not what AngusJim has in mind :)
So if myself and 2 or 3 friends decided to buy an apartment on a residential complex and each use it personally and give FOC to family for their use is this is illegal ? Is there anyone on the Forum that already has this arrangement ?
Technically it's still illegal because the people who don't own it are still not changing their address to stay there so as such they are "tourists".
Would any action be taken? Doubtful
Peterrayner
18-01-2012, 14:51
I’ve just been checking back through the BOC boletins and noticed that no fines have been issued by tourismo for illegal letting since 14th December which, if my memory serves me right, is the day before the previously arranged consultation meeting which did not take place. Is this just coincidence?
Secondly, all of the fines relate to offences which occurred in or prior to April 2011 which would suggest there are still numerous fines pending presumably awaiting the outcome of the meeting at the end of January – if this is still on?
The problem with your assumptions are that they are based soley on the listing of fines in the Boletins.
These represent only the fines issued where the notifications could not be served directly locally or either to a UK address or any other home address via a registered delivery.
The boletin listings will therefore only represent a small fraction of the total fines issued to date.
I also am slightly puzzled that the Boletin listings seemed to have ceased since 14th December 2011 which could mean they are now awaiting the outcome of the outstanding appeals for the fines already issued.
Added after 12 minutes:
So if myself and 2 or 3 friends decided to buy an apartment on a residential complex and each use it personally and give FOC to family for their use is this is illegal ? Is there anyone on the Forum that already has this arrangement ?
This is the opinion of a local lawyer Jose Escobado taken from his website
. What is the definition of a tourist?
Article 15 of the law defines a tourist as anyone who uses tourist establishments or goods or who receives or contracts the services offered by this type of company as a client.
Therefore, if we consider a tourist to be someone who travels for pleasure to a tourist destination and who stays in an establishment where they receive certain services (accommodation, food, excursions, etc.) for a short holiday period, we must logically exclude those people who stay in our apartment without paying either because they are family or friends.
And logic seems logical if you ignore the other part of the law where it says about a tourist being someone staying in accommodation of a temporary form without changing their address - add that into the equation and the logic is contradicted .
However I doubt any action would be taken against genuine friends and family
Peterrayner
18-01-2012, 15:41
And logic seems logical if you ignore the other part of the law where it says about a tourist being someone staying in accommodation of a temporary form without changing their address - add that into the equation and the logic is contradicted .
However I doubt any action would be taken against genuine friends and family
my understanding is that you would need to be in contradiction with all the several elements to be classed as a "tourist"
a) using a touristic company for touristic services
b) paying for the tourisitic services provided
c) retaining a permannet home address
and they can prove they are genuine family and friends.
finally and most importantly IMHO that the accommodation has not been openly offered to the public (advertised) at a commercial rental.
Angusjim
18-01-2012, 15:41
In the context of 400,000 illegal beds, the number of properties withdrawn is a few.
And are some still renting out? I bet they are!
Hughsyb whilst you say nothing much is happening and probably never will can I ask would you buy a so called "illegal apartment" with a view to doing holiday lets and advertise it for rent in say Owners Direct and feel there was no chance of being caught and fined.
my understanding is that you would need to be in contradiction with all the several elements to be classed as a "tourist"
a) using a touristic company for touristic services
b) paying for the tourisitic services provided
c) retaining a permannet home address
and they can prove they are genuine family and friends.
finally and most importantly IMHO that the accommodation has not been openly offered to the public (advertised) at a commercial rental.
I understand it to be any of the above
Peterrayner
18-01-2012, 16:03
I understand it to be any of the above
I have learnt in the past to accept your knowledgle on these matters but it does seem strange that as a property owner I cannot "legally" invite my son or daughter, brothers or sisters to use the apartment.
The logic also would seem to state that neither can I invite my very close friends to accompany me for a holiday as they are deemed to be "tourists" also by virtue of not giving up a permanent address.
I think the most important phrase in José Escobedo's opinion is "without paying" :)
Hughsyb whilst you say nothing much is happening and probably never will can I ask would you buy a so called "illegal apartment" with a view to doing holiday lets and advertise it for rent in say Owners Direct and feel there was no chance of being caught and fined.
I currently holiday let a residential property in the Canaries, have done so for many years, and fully expect to carry on doing so for many years to come. Like many other people, I have just had my most successful year to date, and am already well booked for 2012, again as are many other people with residential properties.
A clampdown to the extent which is being talked about on here would already result in many thousands of holidays in 2012 being cancelled, with the resultant backlash from that in the UK media adding to the devastation of the Canaries tourist industry, and as has been said, Ryanair pulling out.
Hughsyb is the property yours or someone else's?
Do you pay tax on your earnings from the rental of your residential property? I don't think this will all blow over, I don't share your optimism. From the Canarian Governments point of view, if they can get more complex's to go turistic, this will create full time employment, and those people will be paying tax. Unemployment should fall, and the Government will be happier. I seem to remember reading in one of the Tenerife newspapers, that one of the Government Ministers had a previous job with a large hotel group, so when you have people like that in power, you can't expect them to turn a blind eye. With hugh unemployment, the govenement are endeavouring to create work wherever they can. There has been massive amounts of black market money or cash in hand washing around in Tenerife for years, with ilegal lets/people doing the cleaning/the pick ups from airports etc. The government will want to legislate all of it, so they can tax it and monitor it. With 24% youth unemployment you can't blame them.
If every ilegal let apartment paid tax, this would bring massive revenue to the Government.
Peterrayner
18-01-2012, 20:50
Do you pay tax on your earnings from the rental of your residential property? I don't think this will all blow over, I don't share your optimism. From the Canarian Governments point of view, if they can get more complex's to go turistic, this will create full time employment, and those people will be paying tax. Unemployment should fall, and the Government will be happier. I seem to remember reading in one of the Tenerife newspapers, that one of the Government Ministers had a previous job with a large hotel group, so when you have people like that in power, you can't expect them to turn a blind eye. With hugh unemployment, the govenement are endeavouring to create work wherever they can. There has been massive amounts of black market money or cash in hand washing around in Tenerife for years, with ilegal lets/people doing the cleaning/the pick ups from airports etc. The government will want to legislate all of it, so they can tax it and monitor it. With 24% youth unemployment you can't blame them. If every ilegal let apartment paid tax, this would bring massive revenue to the Government.
The problem with this argument is the Torismo are not currently issuing touristic licences nor is it easy or straight forward to change a residential designation to a tourisitc one.
There is some latitude for "lapsed" touristic complexes to reinstate their licence but again this si far from straight forward.
So I dont see this situation improving local employment prospects indeed it may well damage them further
nor is it likely to improve the tax income apart from where owners on touristic sites will be forced to register and declare the income from rentals but even then income tax revenues dont go into the local coffers but to cewntral goverment on the mainland
but monies raised by local fines do :wink:
Hughsyb is the property yours or someone else's?
Mine.
(Post is too short so adding this.)
Just had a thought on this issue
Has anyone thought of challenging this law under that ubiquitous piece of EU legislation - the Human Rights Act ??
It strikes me that a case could be made under the HR act that the Canarian Government have passed a law which prevents you as an owner from exercising your basic human right to do what you want with your own property.
I think this clampdown certainly pushes owners into a corner and there's a clammer to all club together and get 50%+1 on the complexes that can - I've had several contacting me but no success stories yet
I thought that this issue had already gone as high as it can go in the EEC and was accepted by the Court?
I thought that this issue had already gone as high as it can go in the EEC and was accepted by the Court?
I don't think the Human Rights Laws were around that long ago.
I don't think the Human Rights Laws were around that long ago.
How would that go Bobmac?
Its my human right to rent out to anyone a feel like even if that includes to Tourists, even if that means the complex where i own falls outside of the basic human rights of the Tourist being able to stop on a complex with the minimum legal safety and hygiene regulations etc etc etc?
Nothing bores me more than a human rights debate....
The last argument of the desperate
human rights issues are really just another part of fair competition and europe wide harmonisation on this issue. As I have said many times before if one person can rent out a self catering apartment in Ireland, Italy, france , Uk or anywhere else , without 50 plus 1 , then there is no sane reason why this should be illegal in the canaries.
Further more it restricts consumer freedom of choice to book such accomodation in the canaries, when they are free to do it throughout europe.
We have heard silly arguments on here to try to make a case for the 50 plus 1 law being a reasonable and good thing but these arguments never stand up to reasonable debate.
the letting laws came in to protect the hotels from what they saw as unfair competition in 1995, then because trade was good after that they were ignored as the canaries got full hotels and full apartments. Only with the crisis of 2008 did all this lot kick in again for the same reason.
The solution now is for the canary government to charge an anual permit for individual renters, maybe 400 euro per year. Get the revenue the right way, not big fines, and get their economy going full speed hotels and apartments.
How would that go Bobmac?
Its my human right to rent out to anyone a feel like even if that includes to Tourists, even if that means the complex where i own falls outside of the basic human rights of the Tourist being able to stop on a complex with the minimum legal safety and hygiene regulations etc etc etc?
I can certainly see at least one person on this thread trying it and that would ensure that this debate would rage on for years and make the lawyers very rich.
You can just hear it, can't you.
Someone who rents out illegally claiming that it infringes their HR not being allowed to rent out their property,
Win the judgement
Someone who doesn't rent out illegally claiming that it infringes their HR that people are renting out their property illegally.
and on and on and ...
Added after 3 minutes:
human rights issues are really just another part of fair competition and europe wide harmonisation on this issue. As I have said many times before if one person can rent out a self catering apartment in Ireland, Italy, france , Uk or anywhere else , without 50 plus 1 , then there is no sane reason why this should be illegal in the canaries.
Further more it restricts consumer freedom of choice to book such accomodation in the canaries, when they are free to do it throughout europe.
We have heard silly arguments on here to try to make a case for the 50 plus 1 law being a reasonable and good thing but these arguments never stand up to reasonable debate.
the letting laws came in to protect the hotels from what they saw as unfair competition in 1995, then because trade was good after that they were ignored as the canaries got full hotels and full apartments. Only with the crisis of 2008 did all this lot kick in again for the same reason.
The solution now is for the canary government to charge an anual permit for individual renters, maybe 400 euro per year. Get the revenue the right way, not big fines, and get their economy going full speed hotels and apartments.
Sorry Nelson but there is one very good reason why you can't do it in the Canaries, the Canarian Government passed a law in 1995 which made it illegal, end of the matter.
It doesn't matter a sod what happens anywhere else in the world, in the Canaries it is ILLEGAL
This has been challenged all the way to the EU and they ruled in favour of the Canarian Government.
we will all have to see what happens. I am always amazed when people say the law was challenged and up held . The case back then was some big agency against another I think, from what I have seen on here. Quite why a single property owner can not just rent out completely baffles me to the point I feel like the boy who shouts that the emporer has no clothes on . I can not see at all why this normal europe wide practice should not just carry on in the canaries like everywhere else ? where of course it is perfectly legal and normal. It seems as odd as laws in arab countries banning women from driving. Then when some one says that the eu upheld the daft law , well it seems to me just like the un ruling that arab women should not be allowed to drive and the law , though unlike the rest of the world, is a sensible one.
We have heard silly arguments on here to try to make a case for the 50 plus 1 law being a reasonable and good thing but these arguments never stand up to reasonable debate.
Majority.............
the problem with your way of thinking nelson is you keep confusing yourself with how other countries do things
Majority.............
the problem with your way of thinking nelson is you keep confusing yourself with how other countries do thinks
well yes, I can not help comparing what is the norm throughout the rest of europe, it is this unique canary approach , the severe crackdown after years of dormancy, that strikes as ridiculous when compared with europe wide standards of governnance and law enforcement.
this approach is more like something IDi Amin might do rather than a modern free democracy.
we will all have to see what happens. I am always amazed when people say the law was challenged and up held . The case back then was some big agency against another I think, from what I have seen on here. Quite why a single property owner can not just rent out completely baffles me to the point I feel like the boy who shouts that the emporer has no clothes on . I can not see at all why this normal europe wide practice should not just carry on in the canaries like everywhere else ? where of course it is perfectly legal and normal. It seems as odd as laws in arab countries banning women from driving. Then when some one says that the eu upheld the daft law , well it seems to me just like the un ruling that arab women should not be allowed to drive and the law , though unlike the rest of the world, is a sensible one.
IT's BLOODY ILLEGAL
Why can't you accept that whatever you might think of this law and I do agree with you that it is stupid, it is a Canarian law passed by the Canarian Government and applies to all appropriate properties in the Canaries.
If you've been caught by it you have my sympathy but unless you bought before it was passed, you should have been aware of it when you bought your property, if you weren't, you didn't do your homework very well.
Hitler would have done things differently
IT's BLOODY ILLEGAL
Why can't you accept that whatever you might think of this law and I do agree with you that it is stupid, it is a Canarian law passed by the Canarian Government and applies to all appropriate properties in the Canaries.
If you've been caught by it you have my sympathy but unless you bought before it was passed, you should have been aware of it when you bought your property, if you weren't, you didn't do your homework very well.
we have been over this one many times before, and the answer is in my example of arab bans on women drivers. Some countries laws are wrong . They can be put there in a dictotorial manner for bad reasons. Maybe to protect a narrow vested interest and the majority suffer. Bad laws cann be kicked out by democratic protest , this is how the whole world has improved for generations.
This is what people are campaigning for with the canary letting laws. The islands economy would be stronger with the apartments continuing letting, the laws need to be changed, it is in the interest of the majority of canarians.
I was going to keep out of this, but with the human rights issues being raised I cant resist.
You may argue that it is your human right to rent your residential apartment out if you wish.
By the same token, those who live on your complex have a human right to live in their home peacfully and without sufference.
If the law of the land says that tourists can infest a touristic complex, designed specifically with them in mind, and with all the facilities considered to be necessary, but that same law also states that letting to tourists on residential complexes with NONE of the necessary safety provisions available given people reside there, then a court would doubtless wet itself laughing at such claims from the poor hard-done by individual who has been caught breaking the law.
I'd say pretty simples - tourists infringement of the human rights of Mr and Mrs Resident to lead a quiet life far outweigh those who are now whinging about having been fined, (or risking a fine) and have (in the main) been pocketing a few hundred Euros a week to pay their mortgages on their illegal buy to let investments.
If you start arguing human rights it is the protection of the rights of Mr & Mrs Resident that will win every time and, perhaps not intentionally, but such protection is afforded to them in the effects of the 1995 law.
I was going to keep out of this, but with the human rights issues being raised I cant resist.
You may argue that it is your human right to rent your residential apartment out if you wish.
By the same token, those who live on your complex have a human right to live in their home peacfully and without sufference.
If the law of the land says that tourists can infest a touristic complex, designed specifically with them in mind, and with all the facilities considered to be necessary, but that same law also states that letting to tourists on residential complexes with NONE of the necessary safety provisions available given people reside there, then a court would doubtless wet itself laughing at such claims from the poor hard-done by individual who has been caught breaking the law.
I'd say pretty simples - tourists infringement of the human rights of Mr and Mrs Resident to lead a quiet life far outweigh those who are now whinging about having been fined, (or risking a fine) and have (in the main) been pocketing a few hundred Euros a week to pay their mortgages on their illegal buy to let investments.
If you start arguing human rights it is the protection of the rights of Mr & Mrs Resident that will win every time and, perhaps not intentionally, but such protection is afforded to them in the effects of the 1995 law.
one point about the arguments for and against letting on residential sites is that the canary government has the last laugh both ways. When the hotels are not struggling in good times they turn a blind eye , they want maximum guests on their islands, not a thought for mr and mrs residential, then if it suits them when the hotels are quiet they hammer the residential renters with big fines.
They do seem to do what suits them when it suits them.
If you are going to rent to tourists on residential site remember don't advertise it on the internet
just a thought
It's this type of anti establishment behaviour that got sister rosa parks thrown off a bus. A Troublemaker Nelson, that's what you are !!!
An interesting report in La Provincia two weeks ago - Las Palmas based Hotelier organisation asking for more inspections of Illegal Beds
The industry blames the lack of jobs to illegal beds
Employers require the Canarian Government Finance further inspection to combat unfair competition
Friar said that "for many people entering the airport, but then there are two paths: the legal, which is what creates jobs and leads to hotels and apartments regulated, and illegal complexes and a huge number of apartments that have left the regulated and tourist operations have gotten into illegality. " "They leave the key under the doormat, a person who has registered with the Social Security cleans the room before the tourists arrive and so is dispatching thousands of tourists who buy through the Internet," reported Friar .
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.laprovincia.es/economia/2012/01/05/sector-achaca-falta-empleo-camas-ilegales/428152.html&ei=DHQXT6S2IY6XiAfMruX2Aw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEl%2Bsector%2Bachaca%2Bla%2Bfalta%2Bd e%2Bempleo%2Ba%2Blas%2Bcamas%2Bilegales%26hl%3Den% 26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dph2%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns
[QUOTE=Hughsyb;137512]I currently holiday let a residential property in the Canaries, have done so for many years, and fully expect to carry on doing so for many years to come. Like many other people, I have just had my most successful year to date, and am already well booked for 2012, again as are many other people with residential properties.
QUOTE]
Have you received a notification yet or does your bottom twitch every time you receice a registered letter?
I currently holiday let a residential property in the Canaries, have done so for many years, and fully expect to carry on doing so for many years to come. Like many other people, I have just had my most successful year to date, and am already well booked for 2012, again as are many other people with residential properties.
I hope you have set aside 18K€ as a fall back position.
one point about the arguments for and against letting on residential sites is that the canary government has the last laugh both ways. When the hotels are not struggling in good times they turn a blind eye , they want maximum guests on their islands, not a thought for mr and mrs residential, then if it suits them when the hotels are quiet they hammer the residential renters with big fines.
They do seem to do what suits them when it suits them.
A good point perhaps. but the Government is not beraking the law in choosing when/how it might impliment it - that is their decision to make, much in the same way as you willingly made a concious decision to break the law and are now suffering the consequences.
Since you love analagies, you may thing that the speed limit on the Tf 1 is too low at 120 and decide to drive at 140 every time you use it, your reasoning being that some German motorways have open speed limits and cars can easily and comfortably go at those speeds safely. Having travelled on the motorway here at 140 day after day, you receive the dreaded letter from Traffico with your fine - What is your argument, how do you defend your actions, tell them that you think you should have been allowed to go that fast because your car is capable and if you were in Germany you would be allowed to drive that fast??
Don't think so
Added after 2 minutes:
PS One day perhaps they will fix the edit button !! Sorry about the speeeeling above !!
Hi All .... can anyone answer this one ...... on the complex where I own the sole agent actually owns 31.5% of the apartments. Also a large number of the owners don't want to rent out at all .... some would prefer if the complex lost it's tourist status and became purely residential. Of those apartments willing to rent out but not liking the terms offered by the sole agent (basically because they want to use their holiday home for a few months of the year themselves .... whereas the agents terms state they can only use them for four weeks a year ... and then only in May or October) there are not enough to make up the 50%+1 needed to oust the agent. Any suggestions?
Hi All .... can anyone answer this one ...... on the complex where I own the sole agent actually owns 31.5% of the apartments. Also a large number of the owners don't want to rent out at all .... some would prefer if the complex lost it's tourist status and became purely residential. Of those apartments willing to rent out but not liking the terms offered by the sole agent (basically because they want to use their holiday home for a few months of the year themselves .... whereas the agents terms state they can only use them for four weeks a year ... and then only in May or October) there are not enough to make up the 50%+1 needed to oust the agent. Any suggestions?
This is a common complaint about the management agents, they offer little return and inflexible or inadequate personal weeks......
What I would say is if they own 31% of the complex you're fighting a losing battle - either stick with them or sell up and let someone else buy on there as demand for buy to let investment properties is going to go up because of this clampdown. Why not sell up, get a good price for it, and then buy on a residential complex - everybody's happy.
I hope you have set aside 18K€ as a fall back position.
Why????
I don't know of anyone paying an 18K€ fine, do you?
Tom & Sharon
19-01-2012, 15:04
2197
Why????
I don't know of anyone paying an 18K€ fine, do you?
Keep it up!!!!! :D ;)
Jimmyhow
19-01-2012, 15:15
Why????
I don't know of anyone paying an 18K€ fine, do you?
Exactly, if the 1995 law is so watertight and has gone to the EU to be challenged as far back as 2004 and the Canarian Govt. won why have no fines ever been paid?
Additionally, why have no more fines been issued since 14th December presumably awaiting the outcome of the next stages of the appeals process for the original fines and why do the Tourism authorities keep changing the nature of the fines i.e. no complaints book etc.
All seems a little strange to me.
Exactly, if the 1995 law is so watertight and has gone to the EU to be challenged as far back as 2004 and the Canarian Govt. won why have no fines ever been paid?
Additionally, why have no more fines been issued since 14th December presumably awaiting the outcome of the next stages of the appeals process for the original fines and why do the Tourism authorities keep changing the nature of the fines i.e. no complaints book etc.
All seems a little strange to me.
Before this current crackdown, there were fines issued ... and presumably paid - I bought a PB apartment from one such stricken owner acting as an agent for himself & others rather than through the onsite official agent.
I don't particularly find it strange that there have been no reports in the Boletin since 14th December.
Jimmyhow
19-01-2012, 16:06
Don’t get me wrong I can’t see the tourist board expending all this money on inspectors etc. without getting a satisfactory outcome in terms of payback. All I am saying is that clearly they do not seem over confident that they can make the fines stick otherwise they would just press ahead with the remaining 7000 odd cases they have pending.
Only time will tell but the longer it goes on it gives the lawyers more time to explore various defence strategies and other groups i.e. taxi drivers, restaurant/bar owners etc. time to build up a lobby group to have the law amended.
we have been over this one many times before, and the answer is in my example of arab bans on women drivers. Some countries laws are wrong . They can be put there in a dictotorial manner for bad reasons. Maybe to protect a narrow vested interest and the majority suffer. Bad laws cann be kicked out by democratic protest , this is how the whole world has improved for generations.
This is what people are campaigning for with the canary letting laws. The islands economy would be stronger with the apartments continuing letting, the laws need to be changed, it is in the interest of the majority of canarians.
Be that as it may, it still doesn't change the one important basic fact, the Canarian government passed a law in 1995 and have now decided to enforce it
It is still BLOODY illegal to let out a residential property to tourists
You can argue all you want about how stupid it is but that wont change the fact that it is illegal.
You can campaign all you want as well but unless you have taken up Spanish nationality, you can't vote in the Canaries so the Canarian Government doesn't really need to bother too much about your opinions.
How is the lobby group coming along by the way?
Added after 2 minutes:
the backlash continues
How is the lobby group coming along by the way?
Added after 2 minutes:
the backlash continues
Apparently Hilter nor Franco amongst others haven't replied as yet
cheers
no I am not saying go against all laws that you dont agree with. Just in my opinion there are at times unjust laws that people have to oppose. change can then come. Clearly there are many laws that are sound and we all live better lives because we have them. But also it can be that some laws are way out of line with the democratic norm.
That in my opinion is the case with the canaries letting law. Its just a blatent piece of protectionism for the hotels, they have got it into law at their lobbying because they think that they are losing business to apartments when times are lean.
All around europe there are small apartment renters who can rent out legally so why should the canaries prevent this? They dont try to stop it when the hotels are busy, just cry foul when they are quiet, every recesion every 15 years or so.
In my opinion that is by normal competitive and democratic standards wrong and out of step with modern europe.
Just imagine if it was like that in the uk, say with caravans on the east coast. Imagine if the east coast hotels tried to stop the caRAVANS LETTING AS IF THEY WERE UNFAIR COMPETITION to the hotels. Sounds mad , but that is how I see the letting laws in the canaries.
no I am not saying go against all laws that you dont agree with. Just in my opinion there are at times unjust laws that people have to oppose. change can then come. Clearly there are many laws that are sound and we all live better lives because we have them. But also it can be that some laws are way out of line with the democratic norm.
That in my opinion is the case with the canaries letting law. Its just a blatent piece of protectionism for the hotels, they have got it into law at their lobbying because they think that they are losing business to apartments when times are lean.
All around europe there are small apartment renters who can rent out legally so why should the canaries prevent this? They dont try to stop it when the hotels are busy, just cry foul when they are quiet, every recesion every 15 years or so.
In my opinion that is by normal competitive and democratic standards wrong and out of step with modern europe.
Just imagine if it was like that in the uk, say with caravans on the east coast. Imagine if the east coast hotels tried to stop the caRAVANS LETTING AS IF THEY WERE UNFAIR COMPETITION to the hotels. Sounds mad , but that is how I see the letting laws in the canaries.
Nelson
You need to grow up mate.
The Canarian government passed this law in 1995 and by your own admission you were fully aware of it when you bought your property. It's a bit late in the day to start complaining about it now.
Whatever your views on this law are, it doesn't change anything. The Canarian Government have passed a law covering the Canaries which make letting properties illegal on residential complexes and only allowed under specific conditions on Tourist complexes.
The fact that there are no comparable laws anywhere else in the world doesn't matter - Canarian law is what applies in the Canaries and if you can't accept that you shouldn't have bought a property there until you had checked the full consequences of this law.
Are you aware by any chance of the reverse version of this law in the UK where people have purchased Park Home style properties as residential only to find that the site they are on is classed as a tourist site and they can't actually live in them all year round, they are only allowed to occupy them for up to 11 months.
yes that is a site rule , also there can be planning authority issues.
but at the end of the day many caravans get rented out legally by their owners, the hotels up and down the east coast have not managed to get a law stopping this yet in the uk. I do not think that they have even thought about trying to do this.
Its a cosy canary law , brought in by hotels that are too influential in the government.
yes that is a site rule , also there can be planning authority issues.
but at the end of the day many caravans get rented out legally by their owners, the hotels up and down the east coast have not managed to get a law stopping this yet in the uk. I do not think that they have even thought about trying to do this.
Its a cosy canary law , brought in by hotels that are too influential in the government.
Your property is in the Canaries not in the UK so comes under Canarian Law not UK law. It therefore doesn't matter whether the UK would have been stupid enough to pass a law like this or not; the Canarian Government did for whatever reason, it doesn't really matter why or who influenced it, they passed this law in 1995 and they are highly unlikely to change it because people like you who have been caught breaking it are creating a fuss about it being unfair - especially as you can't vote for or against them in an election.
Does anyone know of complexes where two or more agents have merged to work separately, but under an "umbrella company" to hold the exploitation licence?
Peterrayner
19-01-2012, 21:29
Does anyone know of complexes where two or more agents have merged to work separately, but under an "umbrella company" to hold the exploitation licence?
IIRC Christian Sur Los Cristianis
Peter was just going to say that we have Hotels Gestion who mainly deal with the holiday companies and another 2 onsite who do most of the private ones works very well for example if you rent my apartment you go to reception pick up keys apartment registered with them but they dont rent or clean it ten south do but they have been there before 1995. David
brought in by hotels that are too influential in the government.
Can you show me where it says the law was introduced by the hotels - no thought not!
I think maybe what he means is that Ricardo Fernandez as former head of Ashotel, is the force behind this "new" clampdown on the illegal letting and the inference may be that he has a vested interest in it
Peterrayner
20-01-2012, 10:50
Lawyer has confirmed 7,400 fines issued.
It is important that appeals are lodged through a legal representative and in his opinion this can be done as soon as you are notified "legally"
Anyone who has any concerns even if they have missed the 15 day deadline should contact a lawyer I would strongly recommend they speak to Jose Escobado asap. He is handling approx 20 cases for owners on our complex and soem have had a recent meeting to discuss the position with him direct in the past 2 weeks.
http://escobedo.net/
Before the 1995 Law complexes "were" designated as Residential and Touristic right?
Jimmyhow
20-01-2012, 11:34
Hi Peter
Sorry to keep banging on about this but did Escobedo actually say 7400 fines have been issued?
Janet ********’s website says approx 7000 fines were in “various stages of the process” following her meeting with the lawyers. I still think the majority of fines will be issued once the appeals process has been tested further – but I could be wrong.
Either way - fines are on the way...
Probably working on Nelson's second by now
sunchaser
20-01-2012, 14:25
Either way - fines are on the way...
Probably working on Nelson's second by now
The Lawyers must be rubbing their hands in glee
Peterrayner
20-01-2012, 14:34
Hi Peter
Sorry to keep banging on about this but did Escobedo actually say 7400 fines have been issued?
Janet ********’s website says approx 7000 fines were in “various stages of the process” following her meeting with the lawyers. I still think the majority of fines will be issued once the appeals process has been tested further – but I could be wrong.
Having spoken directly today to one owner at the meeting it was 7400 fines had been "issued" which would be the total for the whole Canaries at a typical level of 18,000E.
The "process" which I think is refered to previously seems to be an initial appeal which is then reviewed at Director level by the Tourismo.
The lawyers view was that some appeals lodged in June 2011 are now reaching completion of the first stage of the review level and will almost certainly be refered now back to a 2nd review.
When any will actually be presented to court he coudnt say yet with any certainty.
I understand that on our complex this involves 7 of the total of around 20 fines. Given that this first batch is likely to take a total of about 12 months to complete this review of these appeals, the whole process involving some 7400 fines may take some considerable time yet.
Given that this first batch is likely to take a total of about 12 months to complete this review of these appeals, the whole process involving some 7400 fines may take some considerable time yet.
Well there's a shock.
The clampdown continues!
Not for Hughsyb, as he wears his cloak of invisibility.
2199
You can get them on Amazon
The clampdown continues!
..................whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries continue to holiday rent successfully
..................whilst all the restaurants, bars, cafes, supermarkets, hire car/transfer companies, management companies, airport workers, tourist attractions, Michael O'Leary, etc. etc. etc. continue to have their best year since 2004
..................whilst the lawyers boost their bank balances
..................whilst the tourism authorities continue to pat themselves on the back for attracting 15/17% more tourists to the islands, and are washing their hair on the night of any meetings when the might just be put on the spot and have to admit they're not really serious about shutting down 400,000 illegal beds in the Canaries.
Yes, it's happy days for all!
Well, apart from a few on here who are just too bonkers to enjoy it!
I'm enjoying it don't worry.
I'm enjoying it don't worry.
Me too
Where does Hughsby get 95%+ of residential propertie renting out?
His tune will change on receipt of his Certificado one day soon
Given that Hughsyb has admitted on here that he lets out his property on a residential site and given the fuss he's creating about this law at the moment, can you even begin to imagine what he'll be like if he actually get's fines ??
Me too
Where does Hughsby get 95%+ of residential propertie renting out?
didn't you know it's a FACT!
didn't you know it's a FACT!
It must be, he quoted it which makes it a fact; don't even bother asking him to supply a source for it, he probably got it from somebody in the pub.
didn't you know it's a FACT!
It must be, he quoted it which makes it a fact; don't even bother asking him to supply a source for it, he probably got it from somebody in the pub.
So if it's a fact it must be a fact but only due to the fact that Hughsby's knows it is a fact and therefore the fact is it is a fact!
Do you seriously think that HughesyB would have such a cavalier attitude if he really was the owner of an illegal property?
It's a wind up...:twak:
Do you seriously think that HughesyB would have such a cavalier attitude if he really was the owner of an illegal property?
It's a wind up...:twak:
So when someone disagrees with the consensus, it's a windup? I have demonstrated with many facts and figures over the past months that I have a far wider perspective of the subject throughout the Canaries than you have.
Where does Hughsby get 95%+ of residential propertie renting out?
I previously asked you......................
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
But didn't get an answer. If you were to answer it, you might not ask the new question.
So when someone disagrees with the consensus, it's a windup? I have demonstrated with many facts and figures over the past months that I have a far wider perspective of the subject throughout the Canaries than you have.
I previously asked you......................
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
But didn't get an answer. If you were to answer it, you might not ask the new question.
Is it a fact that you have a wider perspective?
And how does that make 95%+ of residential properties illegally rent out?
I previously asked you......................
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
But didn't get an answer. If you were to answer it, you might not ask the new question.
Lot's of cruises now start on Tenerife and the passengers fly into TFS then transfer to the docks to board the ship. An average size cruise liner will take between 2 and 3 thousand passengers and none of them would show up as staying anywhere on Tenerife although thay had been counted through the airport .
Even without them, you can't ASSUME that the discrepancy is caused purely by people renting illegally.
what about residents flying back to UK or mainland spain more often for holidays?
golf birdie
20-01-2012, 18:17
what about residents flying back to UK or mainland spain more often for holidays?
less UK residents went back this year than last. Don't have facts and figures, but I do have ways of knowing:)
Lot's of cruises now start on Tenerife and the passengers fly into TFS then transfer to the docks to board the ship. An average size cruise liner will take between 2 and 3 thousand passengers and none of them would show up as staying anywhere on Tenerife although thay had been counted through the airport .
A tiny fraction in the overall figures.
I don't have figures for Tenerife, but Lanzarote attracted 1,714,497 visitors during 2011. Tenerife will be much higher than that, plus the other islands as well. So a few thousand a week going on cruise ships is nothing.
Similarly, for residents going home for extra holidays, the calculator would need a few more zeros to work out the percentage.
A tiny fraction in the overall figures.
I don't have figures for Tenerife, but Lanzarote attracted 1,714,497 visitors during 2011. Tenerife will be much higher than that, plus the other islands as well. So a few thousand a week going on cruise ships is nothing.
Similarly, for residents going home for extra holidays, the calculator would need a few more zeros to work out the percentage.
A tiny fraction ??
If you assume one cruise a month, that gives approx 30,000 people a year, if the number of visitors through the airports is 2,000,000, that's 1.5%, and there's more than one cruise a month.
bonitatime
20-01-2012, 21:36
Cruise ships tend to turn around weekly so a lot more
Tom & Sharon
20-01-2012, 22:11
..................whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries continue to holiday rent successfully :rofl:
Total B******S, where do you get these figures from?????????
Our complex has 50 apartments (residential), of which THREE continue to commercially rent out illegally,so by my mathematics that's 6%
Yes, our complex is by Tenerife standards a small complex.
I could name quite a few complexes (residential) that have a majority of owners renting out,but on the other hand i could also name quite a few complexes (residential) that have ZERO % commercial renting.
Get real!!!! :duh:
its a mad world. while everyone on this thread is arguing about the rights and wrongs of this issue, just on the forum right now, see weather in may thread, people are saying how good the resort is and recommending to others to book in el mirador etc on various internet sites.
Seems to sum up the entire debate though, just let people make their free choice, its good for the canary economy.
A tiny fraction ??
If you assume one cruise a month, that gives approx 30,000 people a year, if the number of visitors through the airports is 2,000,000, that's 1.5%, and there's more than one cruise a month.
Oh dear! Mathematician required again please.
If Lanzarote attracted 1,714,497 visitors during 2011 and Tenerife is much higher than that, plus the other islands as well, how on earth do you get only 2,000,000?
..................whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries continue to holiday rent successfully :rofl:
Total B******S, where do you get these figures from?????????
Our complex has 50 apartments (residential), of which THREE continue to commercially rent out illegally,so by my mathematics that's 6%
Yes, our complex is by Tenerife standards a small complex.
I could name quite a few complexes (residential) that have a majority of owners renting out,but on the other hand i could also name quite a few complexes (residential) that have ZERO % commercial renting.
Get real!!!! :duh:
I won't even try to get you to understand the maths of this one. Suffice to say I said CONTINUE to rent out successfully, so your figures are meaningless in that context. Percentages are worked out over a period using the same parameters as were used before. People who weren't renting out at the start of the period and still aren't don't come into the equation.
well everything is still in air and the road may be long before anyone knows as to what the cost might be.
The canary government should permit the small renters, maybe 400 euro per year, that would be useful cash for them.
The current crackdown is just mad , and as i say the inocent people on the waether in may thread seem to make the point. They are chosing to come to the island and stay where they think best for them, and eat drink in restuarants that they enjoy and book on internat sites.
That is there free choice, just on part of the canary tourist offering, so why should the canary government object to that?
well everything is still in air and the road may be long before anyone knows as to what the cost might be.
The canary government should permit the small renters, maybe 400 euro per year, that would be useful cash for them.
The current crackdown is just mad , and as i say the inocent people on the waether in may thread seem to make the point. They are chosing to come to the island and stay where they think best for them, and eat drink in restuarants that they enjoy and book on internat sites.
That is there free choice, just on part of the canary tourist offering, so why should the canary government object to that?
Why would they settle for €400.00 when they can get €18'000.00.
Peterrayner
21-01-2012, 09:10
[QUOTE=Oasis;138515]Why would they settle for €400.00 when they can get €18'000.00.[/QUOTE
It might be worth considering
the licence revenue could be a fairly immediate return at little cost and would be a repeat annual income
the fine revenue could it seem take years to achieve and the costs would be high.
I dont think this is JUST a money gathering initiative, Hotels, apartments etc need to flourish or the islands economy is damaged.
I know that people in the "illegal" apartments still spend money but so do people who stay in legal accommodation.
At least by ensuring visitors use the intended methods of accommodation , jobs and the hotel industry are safe while the outer world still benefit from these visitors
well everything is still in air and the road may be long before anyone knows as to what the cost might be.
The canary government should permit the small renters, maybe 400 euro per year, that would be useful cash for them.
The current crackdown is just mad , and as i say the inocent people on the waether in may thread seem to make the point. They are chosing to come to the island and stay where they think best for them, and eat drink in restuarants that they enjoy and book on internat sites.
That is there free choice, just on part of the canary tourist offering, so why should the canary government object to that?
Because......
a) They want to
b) It is their country and they have the right to make their own laws
c) Just because.....
d) They can, and have
Incidentally, nothing is "in the air" as you suggest, the law was made 16 years ago, it has been illegal to do what you have been doing for longer than you bought your buy-to-illegally-let places. Neither ignorance of the law, or I'm going to break it because it doesn't suit me is a defense - you shouldn't have been doing, you did do it, and now you must pay the price for your crime.
Please don't argue that it is OK for you to have been breaking the law for so long because it hadn't been implimented - that's no excuse either. Law is Law and thats the way it is - innit
I dont think this is JUST a money gathering initiative, Hotels, apartments etc need to flourish or the islands economy is damaged.
I know that people in the "illegal" apartments still spend money but so do people who stay in legal accommodation.
At least by ensuring visitors use the intended methods of accommodation , jobs and the hotel industry are safe while the outer world still benefit from these visitors
the canary islands economy needs all the accomodation full to prosper. hotels, apartments,villas. Over many years this has included the thousands of small private renters who are now being attacked. The clampdown is just the hotels in this crissis wanting to think that all the apartment clients are in fact their missing customers. When times are good and there is full hotels the canary government has turned a blind eye to the small renters as they were bringing more guests to the islands.
The canary /spanish governments are bankrupt, soon the furo will collaspse, June at the very latest. The government needs cash so tax the renters each year and get them legal that way and contributing to the government.
The only thing is that the powerful hotel lobby has to accept the reality of different types of tourist/ holiday style.
the canary islands economy needs all the accomodation full to prosper. hotels, apartments,villas. Over many years this has included the thousands of small private renters who are now being attacked. The clampdown is just the hotels in this crissis wanting to think that all the apartment clients are in fact their missing customers. When times are good and there is full hotels the canary government has turned a blind eye to the small renters as they were bringing more guests to the islands.
The canary /spanish governments are bankrupt, soon the furo will collaspse, June at the very latest. The government needs cash so tax the renters each year and get them legal that way and contributing to the government.
The only thing is that the powerful hotel lobby has to accept the reality of different types of tourist/ holiday style.
Only in your rather blinkered and biased opinion. The hotels here are full, the tourist industry is booming and they want to ensure that standards are maintained by dealing with the Jack-The-Lad geezers who are trying to get a share of the action without having to provide basic levels of safety, whose insurances are null and void because it is an illegal activity and I'm sure a fair proportion of the driving force behind the implimentation of the law is that they are trying to prevent a recurrance of the Time-Share scams thorough which the reputation of the Canary Islands was severely damaged.
Private and uncontrolled letting is the modern day equivilent of Time Share and they dont want it, and who can blame them.
the canary islands economy needs all the accomodation full to prosper. hotels, apartments,villas. Over many years this has included the thousands of small private renters who are now being attacked. The clampdown is just the hotels in this crissis wanting to think that all the apartment clients are in fact their missing customers. When times are good and there is full hotels the canary government has turned a blind eye to the small renters as they were bringing more guests to the islands.
The canary /spanish governments are bankrupt, soon the furo will collaspse, June at the very latest. The government needs cash so tax the renters each year and get them legal that way and contributing to the government.
The only thing is that the powerful hotel lobby has to accept the reality of different types of tourist/ holiday style.
While I'm sure you've noticed that most people on this thread actually agree with your view that this law is a total ass, it doesn't matter that it is a total ass - IT IS CANARIAN LAW and they have started to enforce it. The fact that they didn't enforce it before now is totally irrelevant, the Canarian Government is responsible for running the Canaries, not a bunch of Ex-Pats who think they know better than them how they should be running the Canaries, and they are now enforcing it so whether you like it or not, you will have to learn to live with consequences of breaking that law. Sorry for being a bit blunt about it but you knew the law was there and took a risk by ignoring it, now you've been caught.
the canary islands economy needs all the accomodation full to prosper. hotels, apartments,villas. Over many years this has included the thousands of small private renters who are now being attacked. The clampdown is just the hotels in this crissis wanting to think that all the apartment clients are in fact their missing customers. When times are good and there is full hotels the canary government has turned a blind eye to the small renters as they were bringing more guests to the islands.
The canary /spanish governments are bankrupt, soon the furo will collaspse, June at the very latest. The government needs cash so tax the renters each year and get them legal that way and contributing to the government.
The only thing is that the powerful hotel lobby has to accept the reality of different types of tourist/ holiday style.
Nelson, it's not that I don't sympathise, but whilst your plan could make economical sense as far as raising a fast buck is concerned, it seems to completely pass you by as to how long it would take just to put it into action. You make it sound as if they can sit round a table, accept your plan and then put it in the newspaper the next day and start collecting the cash! You'd have to wait a long time to get a government law changed. The money would come in handy but it almost certainly would be stitching up the residents who bought residential to avoid this happening. They did nothing wrong. You did.
In reality it would seem that your "spanish business" has been caught operating illegally and is facing fines and almost certain closure. I don't wish it on you but it hardly puts you in a position to be dishing out financial advice to the spanish government....
Nelson, it's not that I don't sympathise, but whilst your plan could make economical sense as far as raising a fast buck is concerned, it seems to completely pass you by as to how long it would take just to put it into action. You make it sound as if they can sit round a table, accept your plan and then put it in the newspaper the next day and start collecting the cash! You'd have to wait a long time to get a government law changed. The money would come in handy but it almost certainly would be stitching up the residents who bought residential to avoid this happening. They did nothing wrong. You did.
In reality it would seem that your "spanish business" has been caught operating illegally and is facing fines and almost certain closure. I don't wish it on you but it hardly puts you in a position to be dishing out financial advice to the spanish government....
Well put - seems a little more polite than the comment I was thinking of making...............
Nelson - you are a ciminal, you have broken the laws of this country - you should be deported, your assets siezed and you should never set foot on this soil again, save you cause more problems.
oops
xx
Peterrayner
21-01-2012, 16:08
Well put - seems a little more polite than the comment I was thinking of making...............
Nelson - you are a ciminal, you have broken the laws of this country - you should be deported, your assets siezed and you should never set foot on this soil again, save you cause more problems.
oops
xx
Thats a bit strong but I guess its in line with your pst views.
NOBODY has yet been convicted of any crime so to call anyone a criminal with regards to this issue is OTT and out of order IMHO.
In effect the notifications are summons only at this stage
It is far from clear at this stage that the Tourismo have themselves acted fully legally or correctly with regard to their actions to date.
It was said in jest -
That said - you should look at these fines as if they were speeding fines - they are not summons unless overturned by Turismo or the courts, they are fines and are lodged against the individuals concerned. The only hope of avoiding them is that they are withdrawn
Thats a bit strong but I guess its in line with your pst views.
NOBODY has yet been convicted of any crime so to call anyone a criminal with regards to this issue is OTT and out of order IMHO.
In effect the notifications are summons only at this stage
It is far from clear at this stage that the Tourismo have themselves acted fully legally or correctly with regard to their actions to date.
I think the point Muppet was making is that Nelson knew when he bought his property on a residential complex, he was made aware that this law was there, chose to ignore it, got caught and fined and is now trying to justify this by arguing that the law is in the wrong not himself.
Peterrayner
21-01-2012, 17:48
It was said in jest -
That said - you should look at these fines as if they were speeding fines - they are not summons unless overturned by Turismo or the courts, they are fines and are lodged against the individuals concerned. The only hope of avoiding them is that they are withdrawn
Speeding fines is a good analogy.
Having recieved notification of the fine you can cop the fine and the points and be on your way...
or you can appeal and elect to go to court and plead your case and you would be entitled to see the evidence against you I would assume.
That evidence could be photographic and or speed camera but you are entitled to see that all equipment is verified as certified, tested and correct.
These Illegal letting fines are notifications which have been sent to residential owners but to date no case that has been appealed has yet been presented to a court so no one as yet been found guilty of any offence within this current action.
As I said previously anyone in receipt of a notification should contact Jose Escobado.
I think the point Muppet was making is that Nelson knew when he bought his property on a residential complex, he was made aware that this law was there, chose to ignore it, got caught and fined and is now trying to justify this by arguing that the law is in the wrong not himself.
hallalula. I think bobmac is only ever winding me up with his constant haranging about law breaking. Clearly I have argued the point many times that any where in the world , not just spain, it can be the case that laws can actually be found to be wrong and may need to be changed by democratic consent.
Yes there are many sound laws all around the world, we all only live free lives by the protection of the law. But it can also be that there can be bad laws which may eventually be changed.
In my opinion the current mess is as a result of an unfair law put in place in 1995. Then ignored for 16 years and only brought out due to the hotels panicking in 2008 due to the crisiss.
obviously to brand me a law breaker in the context of such a law and to say I should not argue for the law to be changed at all , but to just accept this situation, well that is just plain daft.
Of course the decesion on canary law should not be down to ex pats, but there are many canarians who will suffer due to this unfair crackdown and in my opinion their views must be heard. We know that the southern mayors are getting involved, there are shops, restuarants and bars, taxis and many other canary business,s that are also concerned.
As for a legal permitting scheme for small renters taking time, well this crackdown must have started with hotel protests in late 2008, then inspectors in mid 2010 and the first fines summer 2011. For a government crackdown quite a rapid timetable. To move now to a scheme for permitting the small renters would not take that much sorting. The inspectors have a database of illegals to start with,many not yet fined, so to start registration and set up payments would not take much time now, they are 90% there.
Apologies for a rushed respose earlier....
Doreen and others will correct if I am wrong, but those who have received fines have received fines - they are not a summons to appear before a court for their actions which might result in a possible fine, they are pre-determined fines for breaking the law - they are real and as it stands at present, the money is owed to the government.
Of course Spanish law provides the right of appeal but the onus is on you to proove you dont deserve to be fined at all as you have not broken the law, or that the fine is excessive in relation to the crime.
There is an assumption, rather like a speeding fine, that if you have received notification of a fine there is sufficient evidence to suggest you are guilty - speed camera evidence in the case of speeding fine, or in this case evidence to show your advert on a website, linked to your escitura to show the property is yours, or in recent wording, the lack of a complaints book, signage and so on.
But, subject to correction, the fine is a very real fine until such time as it is retracted or has already happened, been reduced, by the court
Peterrayner
21-01-2012, 18:23
Apologies for a rushed respose earlier....
Doreen and others will correct if I am wrong, but those who have received fines have received fines - they are not a summons to appear before a court for their actions which might result in a possible fine, they are pre-determined fines for breaking the law - they are real and as it stands at present, the money is owed to the government.
Of course Spanish law provides the right of appeal but the onus is on you to proove you dont deserve to be fined at all as you have not broken the law, or that the fine is excessive in relation to the crime.
There is an assumption, rather like a speeding fine, that if you have received notification of a fine there is sufficient evidence to suggest you are guilty - speed camera evidence in the case of speeding fine, or in this case evidence to show your advert on a website, linked to your escitura to show the property is yours, or in recent wording, the lack of a complaints book, signage and so on.
But, subject to correction, the fine is a very real fine until such time as it is retracted or has already happened, been reduced, by the court
Apologies for labouring the point but with respect of residential private owners (excluding 3rd oarty agencies etc) the reductions mentioned have been offered by the Director of Tourismo in a first respose to the appeals.
My information is that these reductions have been rejected by the owners and the ball is therefore clearly back with the Tourismo for further consideration.
They can offer further reduction(s) or decide then to put the appeals before the court where ALL the evidence can be tested.
AFAIAA no such decisions have yet been taken or notified to any owners.
Apologies for labouring the point but with respect of residential private owners (excluding 3rd oarty agencies etc) the reductions mentioned have been offered by the Director of Tourismo in a first respose to the appeals.
My information is that these reductions have been rejected by the owners and the ball is therefore clearly back with the Tourismo for further consideration.
They can offer further reduction(s) or decide then to put the appeals before the court where ALL the evidence can be tested.
AFAIAA no such decisions have yet been taken or notified to any owners.
our fine has been reduced to 15,000 euro on first appeal. thats down from 22,000 euro original fine, so well worth the lawyers fees so far.
As a basic point of law the fines are very high as compares with what is normally put on business.s that have not got the complaint forms. The illegal renters are seen in a worse light, the presumtion being that they are outlaws whereas a legal business without the same forms are not nearly as bad.There was a case on the bolutin and posted on here a while back,of a bar being fined 1500 euro for not having the complaint forms.
All a bit baffling to a UK citizen , but as everyone says , this is the canarire/spain , and they do things diferently.
Tom & Sharon
21-01-2012, 18:39
..................whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries continue to holiday rent successfully :rofl:
Total B******S, where do you get these figures from?????????
Our complex has 50 apartments (residential), of which THREE continue to commercially rent out illegally,so by my mathematics that's 6%
Yes, our complex is by Tenerife standards a small complex.
I could name quite a few complexes (residential) that have a majority of owners renting out,but on the other hand i could also name quite a few complexes (residential) that have ZERO % commercial renting.
Get real!!!! :duh:
Oh dear! Mathematician required again please.
If Lanzarote attracted 1,714,497 visitors during 2011 and Tenerife is much higher than that, plus the other islands as well, how on earth do you get only 2,000,000?
I won't even try to get you to understand the maths of this one. Suffice to say I said CONTINUE to rent out successfully, so your figures are meaningless in that context. Percentages are worked out over a period using the same parameters as were used before. People who weren't renting out at the start of the period and still aren't don't come into the equation.
Therefore your 'FACT' that .................. whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries continue to holiday rent successfully :rofl:
should have read '................... whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries who did so before the crackdown continue to commercially ILLEGALLY rent successfully
Which IMHO is still complete and utter tosh :rofl:
I Sir,have the benifit of my scientific calculator,whilst you appear to flick the beads on your abacus whilst typing your 'FACTS'
Remember, 68.7% of the time people will believe whatever statistics are thrust before them ;)
Apologies for labouring the point but with respect of residential private owners (excluding 3rd oarty agencies etc) the reductions mentioned have been offered by the Director of Tourismo in a first respose to the appeals.
My information is that these reductions have been rejected by the owners and the ball is therefore clearly back with the Tourismo for further consideration.
They can offer further reduction(s) or decide then to put the appeals before the court where ALL the evidence can be tested.
AFAIAA no such decisions have yet been taken or notified to any owners.
Peter - what I am trying to say is that if you have received a fine that is what it is. It will remain a fine until you have exhausted all opportunities to have it either reduced or retracted. Point being is that the law has been assumed to have been broken as a result of whatever evidence is available, it is YOU that has to fight for your position. In other words the assumption under Spanish law is that you are guilty until you proove your innocence.
It's not like being summoned to court for an alleged crime and the prosecuters having to prove their case against you in front of Judge and Jury and if found guilty the court then sets the level of punishment befitting of the crime.
Peterrayner
21-01-2012, 20:01
I received a "notification" of a speeding fine in 2005 and took the option to appeal and my lawyer demanded sight of all the evidence.
Turned out the testing certification of the speed gun was 3 weeks out of date hence case dismissed... :)
Lets await the outcome of the appeals process for these notifications. The letters received state they are a notification of a fine and the reciepients having the options of
a) to pay the fine without further court proceedings
b to appeal the fines.
Personally I wouldnt be surprised if these cases in respect of private residential owners never come before a court.
golf birdie
21-01-2012, 20:10
Personally I wouldnt be surprised if these cases in respect of private residential owners never come before a court.
nor would I.
Therefore your 'FACT' that .................. whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries continue to holiday rent successfully :rofl:
should have read '................... whilst 95+% of residential property owners in the Canaries who did so before the crackdown continue to commercially ILLEGALLY rent successfully
Which IMHO is still complete and utter tosh :rofl:
I Sir,have the benifit of my scientific calculator,whilst you appear to flick the beads on your abacus whilst typing your 'FACTS'
Remember, 68.7% of the time people will believe whatever statistics are thrust before them ;)
I see. So you have intimate knowledge of the situation regarding residential holiday letting in Lanzarote and other islands do you? Even a few hundred properties in Tenerife being withdrawn by owners is a tiny percentage compared to the thousands and thousands of residential properties in the Canaries. They are increasing in number. And if you don't believe me, check out the rental websites.
I'll ask you the question then......
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
Frankly I don't think your maths is up to it.
Tom & Sharon
21-01-2012, 21:50
I see. So you have intimate knowledge of the situation regarding residential holiday letting in Lanzarote and other islands do you? Even a few hundred properties in Tenerife being withdrawn by owners is a tiny percentage compared to the thousands and thousands of residential properties in the Canaries. They are increasing in number. And if you don't believe me, check out the rental websites.
I'll ask you the question then......
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
No danger of bars,restaurants,hotels,taxi companies,bus companies,Ryanair pulling out,supermarkets,furniture stores,clothes stores,small shops etc etc going bust then,as the doom and gloom merchants would have us believe if ILLEGAL commercial short term renting in RESiDENTIAL complexes is eradicated if your FACTS are correct then!!!! ;)
Frankly I don't think your maths is up to it.
You know nothing of my knowledge of residential holiday letting in the Canary Islands,you presume as usual. :nono:
You're flicking those beads again !!!
Deja Vu, :zzz:
Have you no new 'FACTS' for us :D
So if passenger levels are up 17.6% but occupancy in legal hotels and apartments only up 7 to 10%, where are the rest of all the extra people staying - in tents?
Are they all in your apartment ?
Sundowner
21-01-2012, 23:24
A few observations from the sidelines........This law dates from 1995 and the Canaries government obviously thought it was necessary at the time and maybe because of the impact this law would have they gave a "period of grace" to allow people time to comply without suffering finacial hardship.I knew about it when I brought my apartment 6 years ago and took it into account when choosing my property.
I never question the laws of an other country.........they have their own citizens who democratically elect them,if you think they are wrong and have the right to vote, register to vote and exercise your democratic right.It is not a defence that you object to the way a country is run just because you made a mistake when you brought your property!!! Is anyone questioning the Germans or Dutch or whoever about there laws?
No because you did not buy there and even if you did you would be obliged to follow their laws!!!
So man up and take it on the chin............
So Nelson - 22,000 down to 15,000 on appeal. Thats very good, any further info on this? Any reasons for
The reduction given???
So Nelson - 22,000 down to 15,000 on appeal. Thats very good, any further info on this? Any reasons for
The reduction given???
11 o clock on a Saturday night.......................................can you tell whose got kids or not:lol::lol:..............................Just going back to the original post.for this forum its May 2011,,but if I,m right on the old one its Nov 2010.has any owner actualy paid any money over to the powers that be.
Tenerife Villas
22-01-2012, 01:53
Speeding fines is a good analogy.
Having recieved notification of the fine you can cop the fine and the points and be on your way...
or you can appeal and elect to go to court and plead your case and you would be entitled to see the evidence against you I would assume.
That evidence could be photographic and or speed camera but you are entitled to see that all equipment is verified as certified, tested and correct.
These Illegal letting fines are notifications which have been sent to residential owners but to date no case that has been appealed has yet been presented to a court so no one as yet been found guilty of any offence within this current action.
As I said previously anyone in receipt of a notification should contact Jose Escobado.
are they not sanctions not fines until tested in court and how do james villas carry on do they know something we do'nt
Peterrayner
22-01-2012, 07:34
A few observations from the sidelines........This law dates from 1995 and the Canaries government obviously thought it was necessary at the time and maybe because of the impact this law would have they gave a "period of grace" to allow people time to comply without suffering finacial hardship.I knew about it when I brought my apartment 6 years ago and took it into account when choosing my property.
I never question the laws of an other country.........they have their own citizens who democratically elect them,if you think they are wrong and have the right to vote, register to vote and exercise your democratic right.It is not a defence that you object to the way a country is run just because you made a mistake when you brought your property!!! Is anyone questioning the Germans or Dutch or whoever about there laws?
No because you did not buy there and even if you did you would be obliged to follow their laws!!!
So man up and take it on the chin............
I would strongly recommend that they APPEAL
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