View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Thanks. And a link to Jet2 and Monarch already saying they will reduce flights as a result?
http://www.preferente.com/transportes/noticias-de-aerolineas/jet2-y-monarch-pendientes-de-las-bonificaciones-aereas-para-mantener-sus-vuelos-a-canarias-185538.html
You know H, Google is a wonderful resource :)
http://www.preferente.com/transportes/noticias-de-aerolineas/jet2-y-monarch-pendientes-de-las-bonificaciones-aereas-para-mantener-sus-vuelos-a-canarias-185538.html
You know H, Google is a wonderful resource :)
Yes it is a wonderful resource D.
So are the translation websites you can access on the internet, which gives...............
"The city Hall of Tenerife has indicated that the airlines Jet2 and Monarch have transferred its intention to reduce flights to the Islands Canaries in the event that itself they be not deferred the bonus of the air rates as intends the Department of Indutria, Energy and Tourism."
If you look around the Canarian news websites, they have news items on this subject which all say that airlines like Jet2, Monarch, and Ryanair are all threatening to reduce flights if the subsidies are removed, but no decision has yet been taken.
Of course Muppet who posted this may have exclusive information on the subject. We'll wait for that.
Yes it is a wonderful resource D.
So are the translation websites you can access on the internet, which gives...............
"The city Hall of Tenerife has indicated that the airlines Jet2 and Monarch have transferred its intention to reduce flights to the Islands Canaries in the event that itself they be not deferred the bonus of the air rates as intends the Department of Indutria, Energy and Tourism."
If you look around the Canarian news websites, they have news items on this subject which all say that airlines like Jet2, Monarch, and Ryanair are all threatening to reduce flights if the subsidies are removed, but no decision has yet been taken.
Of course Muppet who posted this may have exclusive information on the subject. We'll wait for that.
Local Canarian papers like this http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2012/02/02/aerolineas-britanicas-reduciran-vuelos-isla/394484.html&ei=9tsrT9v8OYyh-Qan3_ivDg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CHkQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmonarch%2Breduciran%2Bvuelos%2Bcanari as%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DbHz%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns
The Government has announced it plans to remove the subsidies - a special exemption will have to be made for the Canaries for this not to happen :(
Local Canarian papers like this http://translate.google.es/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2012/02/02/aerolineas-britanicas-reduciran-vuelos-isla/394484.html&ei=9tsrT9v8OYyh-Qan3_ivDg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CHkQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmonarch%2Breduciran%2Bvuelos%2Bcanari as%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DbHz%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns
The Government has announced it plans to remove the subsidies - a special exemption will have to be made for the Canaries for this not to happen :(
Sorry but I don't see anything there that says a final decision has been taken.
willowlily
03-02-2012, 15:00
How many un employed on Island :crazy: What are these people doing iand in the present climate:crazy::crazy::crazy: Like our goverment we did not support our manufacturing Industry and relied on the banks to make money. Look what happened the countries broke. What else have the canaries got other than tourists?? Bananas!!!! any oil any where been found??
only in the thai massage parlours
Tenerife Villas
03-02-2012, 21:54
good to see that the camarin tourist minister slagging off the spanish government for dropping the airport subsides saying they are destroying tourism in the canaries. I'd say he is making a good job of that himself .
jogger321
04-02-2012, 01:24
Nice to see the most famous "Award Winning" Estate Agents in Tenerife continuing in their long tradition of marketing to the uninitiated.. Presumably somebody on here will agree with them that yes its a place that owners who don't live in it can visit it for a holiday!..and of course if they choose not to they can always rent it out on a long term basis,therefore it has good rental potential rolleyes2:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-32704789.html
Nice to see the most famous "Award Winning" Estate Agents in Tenerife continuing in their long tradition of marketing to the uninitiated.. Presumably somebody on here will agree with them that yes its a place that owners who don't live in it can visit it for a holiday!..and of course if they choose not to they can always rent it out on a long term basis,therefore it has good rental potential rolleyes2:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-32704789.html
Just how the innocent get caught out!
Bit over priced for a one bed?
bonitatime
04-02-2012, 23:30
The whole thing has turned out to be a storm in a teacup
Jet2 and Monarch have apparently said reductions are not in their plans and central government have asked for a apology for misleading the public
It could be that the apartment with the highest Sqm wins the day or maybe the number of registered residents in each apartment..Great question to bug you on a Sunday :)
Peterrayner
05-02-2012, 10:44
It could be that the apartment with the highest Sqm wins the day or maybe the number of registered residents in each apartment..Great question to bug you on a Sunday :)
Question ??? What Question ???
Tom & Sharon
05-02-2012, 12:04
How many un employed on Island :crazy: What are these people doing iand in the present climate:crazy::crazy::crazy: Like our goverment we did not support our manufacturing Industry and relied on the banks to make money. Look what happened the countries broke. What else have the canaries got other than tourists?? Bananas!!!! any oil any where been found??
Well actually yes,just off the coast off Lanzarote and Fuerteventura,the base for the oil company is in Gran Canaria ;)
The Australian company Tangiers Petroleum is looking for partners with a view to starting offshore drilling for oil in Moroccan waters. Some people estimate the potential of the offshore Tarfaya Block to be at least one billion barrels. The Spanish Repsol YPF (Tangiers-Larache blocks) and Kosmos Energy recently concluded two agreements on offshore oil extraction from the Cap Boujdour Block. The Spanish authorities are said to have plans to start drilling for oil in Spanish national waters.
These waters are located near the Canary Islands. It is well known that this area is volcanically active, with a high risk of earthquakes. Leaks from oil wells would be disastrous, not only for the marine environment (which possesses high landscape value) but just as much for coastal areas in Morocco and the Canaries where tourism is important.
You did ask!!!
Tom :tiphat:
Ecky Thump
05-02-2012, 12:07
[/B]
Well actually yes,just off the coast off lanzarote and fuerteventura,the base for the oil company is in Gran Canaria ;)
The Australian company Tangiers Petroleum is looking for partners with a view to starting offshore drilling for oil in Moroccan waters. Some people estimate the potential of the offshore Tarfaya Block to be at least one billion barrels. The Spanish Repsol YPF (Tangiers-Larache blocks) and Kosmos Energy recently concluded two agreements on offshore oil extraction from the Cap Boujdour Block. The Spanish authorities are said to have plans to start drilling for oil in Spanish national waters.
These waters are located near the Canary Islands. It is well known that this area is volcanically active, with a high risk of earthquakes. Leaks from oil wells would be disastrous, not only for the marine environment (which possesses high landscape value) but just as much for coastal areas in Morocco and the Canaries where tourism is important.
You did ask!!!
Tom :tiphat:
So the short reply, would be Banana Picking and not Oil Drilling.:laugh:
Tom & Sharon
05-02-2012, 12:13
So the short reply, would be Banana Picking and not Oil Drilling.:laugh:
Don't forget Aloe vera and tomatoes :whistle: :laugh:
Ecky Thump
05-02-2012, 12:23
Don't forget Aloe vera and tomatoes :whistle: :laugh:
How could I forget those lovely tomatoes, I take a packet of seeds home every year and surprisingly they grow to perfection here in Scotland.:yum:
cainaries
05-02-2012, 12:35
How about avocados and papayas? (Just asking)
Santiago
05-02-2012, 15:22
How about the three crops a year as opposed to one over here?
I had an interesting conversation with my bank manager on Friday. He was trying to entice me to invest in a new complex they are promoting in Playa Paraiso. I asked if I could rent out to holiday makers, to which he replied that it would be a very popular complex for holiday makers as it was close to the beach! So I asked if a tourist licence was held there ... he replied that that was the best thing about it! Having no sole agent to tell you who to rent to meant I, as the owner, would have far more control over the rentals!! I pointed out that this was surely illegal, to which he replied that he thought not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Luckily for me I was not taken in ... but imagine if I was as uninformed as my bank manager???!! Surely these are the type of people who should be advising their customers correctly! I understand a lot of unscrupulous estate agents just say what they think you want to hear ... but you'd imagine you would be able to trust a bank manager's advice!
:fpull::jumping::crylaughing::twak: TRUST THE ADVICE OF BANKERS ???????????? Where on Earth have you been for the last four years...?
Don't tell me, on the beach....!
It's about time you pulled your head out of the sand :)
:fpull::jumping::crylaughing::twak: TRUST THE ADVICE OF BANKERS ???????????? Where on Earth have you been for the last four years...?
Don't tell me, on the beach....!
It's about time you pulled your head out of the sand :)
Good point!!! Forget I said anything xxx
Next time your bank manager advises you to buy advise him that you have to work out your ROI on the following factors as a potential landlord..
1. How much rental can you achieve PA from a residential tenant
2. Assume that 25% per year is going to be vacant
3. Assume that your tenant, if being part or 100% subsidised by HB or Tenerife equalivent (you don't spell it like that :) ), is more than likely over the next 12 months going to get that benefit cut to assist in Spanish austerity measures and you expect that to be in the region of 5-10%
Then ask him to give you a yield of 5% on a property investment, if he can do that he has given you the true value of property in Tenerife at the moment.
Peterrayner
06-02-2012, 01:25
Interesting notification on the Bolitins this morning
Club Mancha Apartments described on nthe website as an exclusive gay resort
http://www.clubmancha.com/
fined 48,000E for operating without a touristic licence.
Inspection April 2010. ???
Added after 3 minutes:
sorry no edit button !!!
Club Mancha is Gran Canaria Playa del Ingles.
Interesting notification on the Bolitins this morning
Club Mancha Apartments described on nthe website as an exclusive gay resort
http://www.clubmancha.com/
fined 48,000E for operating without a touristic licence.
Inspection April 2010. ???
Added after 3 minutes:
sorry no edit button !!!
Club Mancha is Gran Canaria Playa del Ingles.
The web site has only UK contact numbers, so for those of you who think it safe to be UK based and renting property in the Canaries - think again rolleyes2:
Club la mancha - gay resort..... Mancha means "stain"...... Ugh *shudders*
I saw an advert for First Choice on the TV last night and it said they were only fully inclusive this year. Thomas Cook is also advertising that they are only fully inclusive so that only leaves Thomsons ( of the largest groups) and they have cancelled all their Villas for this summer.
Doesnt give people much choice does it?
I had an interesting conversation with my bank manager on Friday. He was trying to entice me to invest in a new complex they are promoting in Playa Paraiso. I asked if I could rent out to holiday makers, to which he replied that it would be a very popular complex for holiday makers as it was close to the beach! So I asked if a tourist licence was held there ... he replied that that was the best thing about it! Having no sole agent to tell you who to rent to meant I, as the owner, would have far more control over the rentals!! I pointed out that this was surely illegal, to which he replied that he thought not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Luckily for me I was not taken in ... but imagine if I was as uninformed as my bank manager???!! Surely these are the type of people who should be advising their customers correctly! I understand a lot of unscrupulous estate agents just say what they think you want to hear ... but you'd imagine you would be able to trust a bank manager's advice!
This manager should be reported both to the banks head office and the tourist authority. There is no way that this sort of "advice" should go unoticed given the level of "illegality" the canarians are now attaching to holiday lets. The complex building project deserves to fail if it depends on holiday lets, as do most of the residental complex´s if they cant be sold for those purposes.
Peterrayner
06-02-2012, 12:36
The web site has only UK contact numbers, so for those of you who think it safe to be UK based and renting property in the Canaries - think again rolleyes2:
Only UK contact details and an individual is sanctioned rather than the company ??? so maybe thats why its taken nearly 2 years to bring this to a notification via the Boletin.
golf birdie
06-02-2012, 12:38
This manager should be reported both to the banks head office and the tourist authority. There is no way that this sort of "advice" should go unoticed given the level of "illegality" the canarians are now attaching to holiday lets. The complex building project deserves to fail if it depends on holiday lets, as do most of the residental complex´s if they cant be sold for those purposes.
Playa paraiso and Palm mar are prime examples of why they lost the plot with the residental laws. How did they ever think they would fill them??
Playa paraiso and Palm mar are prime examples of why they lost the plot with the residental laws. How did they ever think they would fill them??
Palm Mar is an interesting case - it was "sold" to me as a Residential area, where it was forbidden to have any hotels etc... and a few months ago, one individual was telling me his lawyers had assured him that his holiday letting business in Palm Mar was perfectly legal and he was running no risk (he both owns the properties & lets them out)
golf birdie
06-02-2012, 12:51
Palm Mar is an interesting case - it was "sold" to me as a Residential area, where it was forbidden to have any hotels etc... and a few months ago, one individual was telling me his lawyers had assured him that his holiday letting business in Palm Mar was perfectly legal and he was running no risk (he both owns the properties & lets them out)
he may just be in for a nasty shock.
This manager should be reported both to the banks head office and the tourist authority. There is no way that this sort of "advice" should go unoticed given the level of "illegality" the canarians are now attaching to holiday lets. The complex building project deserves to fail if it depends on holiday lets, as do most of the residental complex´s if they cant be sold for those purposes.
It constantly amazes me the number of Canarian residents, many educated in positions of authority, who are either completely oblivious of these laws, or choose to ignore them. I have spoken to many who simply do not believe me when I tell them of the level of fines being imposed.
hopefully more canarians will become aware of the crackdown and become vocal in oposing it. So many canary interest groups are affected by this. The building industry is clearly going to struggle, selling propertires with tourist letting potential gives them a chance to work and market developments, but without this market it leaves them in a right no hope scenario.
As we all know much of the residential development in the south has been driven by purchasers funding their mortgages by tourist letting. For the canary government to attack this is going to be very damaging to their economy.
bonitatime
06-02-2012, 17:07
Doreen, Foz do you really think canarians have bought apartments and are letting them out short term enmass?
Doreen, Foz do you really think canarians have bought apartments and are letting them out short term enmass?
No not necessarily ..... but those Canarians working as Bank Managers, Gestors, etc etc should be aware of what affects their clients don't you think?
Doreen, Foz do you really think canarians have bought apartments and are letting them out short term enmass?
I wouldn't think there is as high a proportion as British owners - I remember reading some statistics that British tourists were the largest share of the apartment rental market.
Interesting pm's today with someone saying some Russian buyers in a well known Residential complex are continuing to advertise in their home market and not expecting to be caught: it would be interesting to know how widely the Inspectors trawled the internet.
And I totally agree with Foz that any professional should be up to date on these laws.
bonitatime
06-02-2012, 19:48
I am sure a bank manager selling mortgages should know about this but Nelson keeps talking about how it affects the locals and I am not 100% convinced it really does.
Taxi drivers for example are already struggling really badly. Clients won't even take shared transport they go by Titsa.
For the majority of the islands population the south is somewhere for a day at the beach or a cheap holiday in an Aparthotel or some family members apartment ( real frrieds and family) and doesn't reach their conciousness otherwise.
I am sure a bank manager selling mortgages should know about this but Nelson keeps talking about how it affects the locals and I am not 100% convinced it really does.
Taxi drivers for example are already struggling really badly. Clients won't even take shared transport they go by Titsa.
For the majority of the islands population the south is somewhere for a day at the beach or a cheap holiday in an Aparthotel or some family members apartment ( real frrieds and family) and doesn't reach their conciousness otherwise.
In the area where I own, La Caleta, there are many restaurants and bars (owned and run by Canarians) who are reliant on the tourist trade. Prior to this law being applied there were about nine residential complexes where many owners holiday let their apartments. There is actually only one complex (apart from the hotels obviously) that holds a tourist licence. Luckily I own on that complex, but know many who have stopped letting their residential places and though tourists will travel from other areas to eat in the restaurants, there will be very few staying locally .... and that must effect the takings in these places. Certainly the bars and small shops will be hit quite dramatically.
I am sure a bank manager selling mortgages should know about this but Nelson keeps talking about how it affects the locals and I am not 100% convinced it really does.
Taxi drivers for example are already struggling really badly. Clients won't even take shared transport they go by Titsa.
For the majority of the islands population the south is somewhere for a day at the beach or a cheap holiday in an Aparthotel or some family members apartment ( real frrieds and family) and doesn't reach their conciousness otherwise.
I tend to agree - somewhere like Oasis del Sur which has been mentioned before as likely to be badly hurt, the bars employ mainly British (and probably most without contracts) and buy from British suppliers.
It will be interesting to hear from Foz if La Caleta sees a downturn.
It will be interesting to hear from Foz if La Caleta sees a downturn.
We will be using the seafood restaurant 'La Caleta' overlooking the sea as it is one of our favourite places to eat when we visit.
Unfortunately since reading this thread I have discovered that we have always stayed in a residential apartment so this year will be our last visit. We are already looking at Andalucia for next year.
We travel as a group of 8 friends (4 couples) who use 4 apartments in different parts of Adeje but meet up every year.
I think that anyone who says that the enforcement of this law will have no effect needs their head looked at...........
seanocelt
07-02-2012, 02:26
We will be using the seafood restaurant 'La Caleta' overlooking the sea as it is one of our favourite places to eat when we visit.
Unfortunately since reading this thread I have discovered that we have always stayed in a residential apartment so this year will be our last visit. We are already looking at Andalucia for next year.
We travel as a group of 8 friends (4 couples) who use 4 apartments in different parts of Adeje but meet up every year.
I think that anyone who says that the enforcement of this law will have no effect needs their head looked at...........
Good point! But they will have to have their heads pried from the sand to get them looked at.
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 03:54
Another interesting Boletin this morning ref 651.
Seems to be the first of many of the appeals lodged against the first fines, this one is on El Mirador.
golf birdie
07-02-2012, 10:41
I think that anyone who says that the enforcement of this law will have no effect needs their head looked at...........
having had two nights out on the Mirador strip over the past 4 nights, its dead. I have never seen the place so quiet, I have seen it busier in May and June. Don't know if this is a knock on effect of whats going on but I have to feel for those who run business there.
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 10:45
having had two nights out on the Mirador strip over the past 4 nights, its dead. I have never seen the place so quiet, I have seen it busier in May and June. Don't know if this is a knock on effect of whats going on but I have to feel for those who run business there.
No its usually quiet around the area after Xmas and gets busy again starting next week and then half term and then Easter then it goes quiet again in early May till the spring half term and then the long summer hols.
golf birdie
07-02-2012, 11:20
No its usually quiet around the area after Xmas and gets busy again starting next week and then half term and then Easter then it goes quiet again in early May till the spring half term and then the long summer hols.
Yes its usually quiet, and I have seen it quiet but this is worse than I have ever seen. I know a lot of people who work the area and they all are saying the same. Take last night with a couple of bars closed as they do on Mondays, you'd expect a few bodies in the other places but there were very few.
Hate to be daft but I cant find anything on Boletin 651, my Spanish is rubbish! Can you point me to the page so I know for the future where to look?
Thanks :shy:
Hate to be daft but I cant find anything on Boletin 651, my Spanish is rubbish! Can you point me to the page so I know for the future where to look?
Thanks :shy:
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/026/ ... as Peter said, it's no. 651 ... someone who had advertised on ownersdirect ... his grounds of appeal and the reply and lowering of the fines to a total of 15k from 18k :)
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/026/ ... as Peter said, it's no. 651 ... someone who had advertised on ownersdirect ... his grounds of appeal and the reply and lowering of the fines to a total of 15k from 18k :)
Sorry to seem a bit thick but has this fine now been reduced or is it just his attempt to get it reduced?
Sorry to seem a bit thick but has this fine now been reduced or is it just his attempt to get it reduced?
It has been reduced to 15k with 15 days to reply ... the appeal on behalf of the El Mirador owner was asking for fine no greater than 1.500 euros (whilst denying any wrongdoing, saying a proportional fine should be no more than 100 for a minor offence and max 1.500 for a grave/serious offence - so total here would be 3.100 with that logic)
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 13:20
Sorry to seem a bit thick but has this fine now been reduced or is it just his attempt to get it reduced?
both :)
The text sets out his "defence" against the fine and their reasons for not accepting them although they have offered a reduction for 18,000 down to 15,000 euros.
Santiago
07-02-2012, 14:51
Just a small thought: Does the law on the residential letting cover sub-letting as well? If an apartment owner lets his/her apartment for, say, 6 months to a person who then goes on to sub-let on a single or bi-weekly basis, is this covered by the law? If not, then I could long lease an apartment and then sub-let to others for one or two weeks at a time without involving the owner at all. Perhaps some one who knows all the details of the law could comment?
Just a small thought: Does the law on the residential letting cover sub-letting as well? If an apartment owner lets his/her apartment for, say, 6 months to a person who then goes on to sub-let on a single or bi-weekly basis, is this covered by the law? If not, then I could long lease an apartment and then sub-let to others for one or two weeks at a time without involving the owner at all. Perhaps some one who knows all the details of the law could comment?
Not an option ... someone (you in this case) would be exploiting a residential apartment and offering touristic services ... and not producing Libros de Reclamación.
Another option that has been mooted is to give each holidaymaker a 3 month contract, which they end after a week or two ... problem with that would be they would have a right to actually stay the 3 months and you could not evict them :)
both :)
The text sets out his "defence" against the fine and their reasons for not accepting them although they have offered a reduction for 18,000 down to 15,000 euros.
This would be an interesting one to watch wouldn't it?
Both sides have put their cards on the table. The powers have made a reduction but he's still left with a large fine. They obviously have no intention of dropping it further and have explained why so what should he do? If he pays, the floodgates will be open. Should he wait for his day in court which, allowing for solicitors etc, might leave him worse off? It's a hard decision to make. :confused:
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 17:20
If I am reading this notification correctly they have again stipulated he has 15 days to lodge a further appeal against this reduced fine
so this could go on for quite a while yet I am thinking.
atlantico
07-02-2012, 17:42
to clarify, for anyone wanting to search for any fines issued against themselves while residing in UK etc, got to this website and type in your NIE ? Would that be correct ?
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/busqueda.html
to clarify, for anyone wanting to search for any fines issued against themselves while residing in UK etc, got to this website and type in your NIE ? Would that be correct ?
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/busqueda.html
Remember that this is a recorded data slot and your search information will be investigated afterwards
I am sure a bank manager selling mortgages should know about this but Nelson keeps talking about how it affects the locals and I am not 100% convinced it really does.
Taxi drivers for example are already struggling really badly. Clients won't even take shared transport they go by Titsa.
For the majority of the islands population the south is somewhere for a day at the beach or a cheap holiday in an Aparthotel or some family members apartment ( real frrieds and family) and doesn't reach their conciousness otherwise.
just to clarify, when I say that this will affect many canarians, I am talking about jobs and the economy. There m,ay be many renting canarians , but the majority are foreigners like us who have bought the dream home in the sun.
What I see happening if the letting is attacked, is a severe downturn in the tourist sector as the apartment letting reduces. The impact of this will start in the direct front line tourist business's in resort, restuarants,bars,shops,supermarkets and taxis. Then you look to the supply industries that feed these. It becomes a downward spiral for the economy, even the canary utility companies will suffer, empty apartments do not use electricity and water.
Senor Escobedo has stated that the apartments add up to 30 hotels worth of visitors. If the canary government wants to stop that level of business at a time like this it is going to make a major negative impact on the canary economy. That is what I am meaning when I say a great many canarians are going to be affected by this crackdown.
to clarify, for anyone wanting to search for any fines issued against themselves while residing in UK etc, got to this website and type in your NIE ? Would that be correct ?
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/busqueda.html
You would be better just putting your NIE into google and seeing what comes up ... that link has 2012 as a search term, so you would have to input 2011 and do a second search
just to clarify, when I say that this will affect many canarians, I am talking about jobs and the economy. There m,ay be many renting canarians , but the majority are foreigners like us who have bought the dream home in the sun.
What I see happening if the letting is attacked, is a severe downturn in the tourist sector as the apartment letting reduces. The impact of this will start in the direct front line tourist business's in resort, restuarants,bars,shops,supermarkets and taxis. Then you look to the supply industries that feed these. It becomes a downward spiral for the economy, even the canary utility companies will suffer, empty apartments do not use electricity and water.
Senor Escobedo has stated that the apartments add up to 30 hotels worth of visitors. If the canary government wants to stop that level of business at a time like this it is going to make a major negative impact on the canary economy. That is what I am meaning when I say a great many canarians are going to be affected by this crackdown.
The problem with these doomsday prophecies is that no one has any real figures - how many rent out illegally, for how many weeks a year, how many actually pay taxes etc etc ... I am sure the 30 hotels would have been put as an upper limit to make a case more dramatic.
The problem with these doomsday prophecies is that no one has any real figures - how many rent out illegally, for how many weeks a year, how many actually pay taxes etc etc ... I am sure the 30 hotels would have been put as an upper limit to make a case more dramatic.
The full extent of illegal letting is not that hard to work out. The current 7000 fines are only a small proportion of the overall numbers involved. On our complex I estimate around 60 out of 80 apartments. El mirador could be a good number also. There are a great many private renters throughout the canaries. In my opinion the 30 hotel estimate is not an exageration.
Opinions Vs Facts
Is there a difference?
bonitatime
07-02-2012, 18:40
I have to say the opinion of the lawyer who is leading the resistance would not be my first port of call for accurate information.
Opinions Vs Facts
Is there a difference?
it would be great to know the exact figure, there were many thousands on the internet ads before the crackdown. It is a massive amount and far too many tourist beds to attack, unless you have an Idi Amin/Robert Mugabwe mentality.
unless you have an Idi Amin/Robert Mugabwe mentality.
I'm sure it won't be the end of the world. You're sure it will be the end of the world. How do we sort this one out?
Dear Nelson, if 60 out of 80 apartments are letting ilegally, so over 50%, good case to go turistic, why don't you plus the 60 other owners get together & apply for the turistic license, as I think you said before, your complex used to be turistic?. Apoint your own sole letting agency run by your own co-operative. You'd have to comply with all the rules and regulations, i.e. life guard, office on site, but why not, I'm sure the Canarian Turistic Board would look upon this favourably. Added bonus maybe of getting your fines reduced.
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 20:37
I'm sure it won't be the end of the world. You're sure it will be the end of the world. How do we sort this one out?
As with most things of this sort...we wait. :)
Has anyone read the appeal for that owner on el mirador? I only scanned quickly buy his defence seems to be that he'd only just put the advert up and had not taken any bookings.... Cough cough bull sh-I-t cough
Has anyone read the appeal for that owner on el mirador? I only scanned quickly buy his defence seems to be that he'd only just put the advert up and had not taken any bookings.... Cough cough bull sh-I-t cough
If Canarian law works anything like UK law then ignorance will not be accepted as a defense.
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 20:46
Has anyone read the appeal for that owner on el mirador? I only scanned quickly buy his defence seems to be that he'd only just put the advert up and had not taken any bookings.... Cough cough bull sh-I-t cough
I have read it and translated best I can which leads me to conclude its a a DIY appeal. Also the fact that the original notification was only postedon the Boletin in November 2011 so this is a fast response from thr Tourismo. Whereas appeals posted by the lawyers in May June 2001 have still not been responded to.
Interesting that they specifically refer to Owners Direct website and the stating of weekly rental rates as justification for the sanctions.
If Canarian law works anything like UK law then ignorance will not be accepted as a defense.
If he states that no bookings took place then wouldnt the onus be on the prosecution to "prove" otherwise. ???
I have read it and translated best I can which leads me to conclude its a a DIY appeal. Also the fact that the original notification was only postedon the Boletin in November 2011 so this is a fast response from thr Tourismo. Whereas appeals posted by the lawyers in May June 2001 have still not been responded to.
Interesting that they specifically refer to Owners Direct website and the stating of weekly rental rates as justification for the sanctions.
I don't think anyone would do a DIY appeal - I speak fluent Spanish and know a fair bit about the laws and I don't think I'd even try it.
More likely just a terrible lawyer
Has anyone read the appeal for that owner on el mirador? I only scanned quickly buy his defence seems to be that he'd only just put the advert up and had not taken any bookings.... Cough cough bull sh-I-t cough
Not quite - he contends that the mere fact that, according to the Authorities, his apartment appeared for one day on an internet site does not mean he was touristically exploiting the apartment .. and in fact the two times that the apartment was occupied, it was family & friends and no "economic benefit whatsoever" was obtained ..... :whistle:
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 20:50
Ignorance is certainly noexcuse but it is oftern accepted in mitigation.
He has stated that he removed the advert immediately he became aware it was in fact illegal.
Ignorance is certainly noexcuse but it is oftern accepted in mitigation.
He has stated that he removed the advert immediately he became aware it was in fact illegal.
Is that why they lowered the fine?
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 20:53
Not quite - he contends that the mere fact that, according to the Authorities, his apartment appeared for one day on an internet site does not mean he was touristically exploiting the apartment .. and in fact the two times that the apartment was occupied, it was family & friends and no "economic benefit whatsoever" was obtained ..... :whistle:
Again wouldnt a court require the prosecution to prove this wasnt true ??? or is the Napolionic Code different ??
Added after 2 minutes:
Is that why they lowered the fine?
I think he also argued the fine wasnt proportionate to the offence and the Tourismo whilst rejecting this did offer a small reduction in this respect.
just to clarify, when I say that this will affect many canarians, I am talking about jobs and the economy. There m,ay be many renting canarians , but the majority are foreigners like us who have bought the dream home in the sun.
What I see happening if the letting is attacked, is a severe downturn in the tourist sector as the apartment letting reduces. The impact of this will start in the direct front line tourist business's in resort, restuarants,bars,shops,supermarkets and taxis. Then you look to the supply industries that feed these. It becomes a downward spiral for the economy, even the canary utility companies will suffer, empty apartments do not use electricity and water.
Senor Escobedo has stated that the apartments add up to 30 hotels worth of visitors. If the canary government wants to stop that level of business at a time like this it is going to make a major negative impact on the canary economy. That is what I am meaning when I say a great many canarians are going to be affected by this crackdown.
As has been said before though, I personally think you are being a bit dramatic. There has been no downturn yet in tourism despite the inspection team being put in place over a year ago - in fact a very significant increase in tourism.
I would also suggest that a significant number of the bars and restaurants that you believe will fail are not canarian run, they are foreign owned and operated, perhaps with Canarian landlords, who normally just put the rent up between failures anyway.
As to the loss of revenue to water and electric utility companies, that really is wishful thinking in terms of the impact of this on them.
But, at the end of the day it must not be forgotten that this is their country and their Parliament makes the rules. If we foreigners want to live here we have to abide by them, no matter how daft they may seem to be to us.
Worse still, they said don't do it 15 years ago - so why all the fuss now>!!
Peterrayner
07-02-2012, 21:17
Worse still, they said don't do it 15 years ago - so why all the fuss now>!!
IMO because when they drafted this law 16 years ago the presumption and intention was clearly directed atr sites with tourisitc designation. Residential sites in those days werent the norm at last not in the major tourist areas of Los Cris and PDLA.
It has only been in the past 4-5 years that the Residential sites have outgrown the Touristic and coupled with the huge growth in the same period of the internet the infractions against hte law has been unavoidable for the politicians and their previous inaction has been impossible to defend.
Hence we have the curent investigations which have been soemeaht of a knee jerk reation and again I stress INO ill thought out.
As has been said before though, I personally think you are being a bit dramatic. There has been no downturn yet in tourism despite the inspection team being put in place over a year ago - in fact a very significant increase in tourism.
I would also suggest that a significant number of the bars and restaurants that you believe will fail are not canarian run, they are foreign owned and operated, perhaps with Canarian landlords, who normally just put the rent up between failures anyway.
As to the loss of revenue to water and electric utility companies, that really is wishful thinking in terms of the impact of this on them.
But, at the end of the day it must not be forgotten that this is their country and their Parliament makes the rules. If we foreigners want to live here we have to abide by them, no matter how daft they may seem to be to us.
Worse still, they said don't do it 15 years ago - so why all the fuss now>!!
I have posted today following golf birdies reports of unusually quiet times around el mirador bars currently. Others thought him wrong but he says business people are saying things are very slow. The increase in official recorded tourism you mention has occured, the hotels are benefiting unexpectadly from the arab uprising and Egypt factor. The hotel sector is favouring AI deals though, so the resturants are batting against this as well.
In my opinion the crackdown will show itself more this spring/summer, as apartments now off the internet will send no guests. At the moment existing winter bookings will be being honoured, most will be repeat family and friends, but in the weeks just ahead all the pulled internet ads will leave no guests for many apartments. Next winter we know many customers are saying that their normal apartment is not letting so there is trouble ahead there too.
You sole letting guys on here are in denial about the impact this crackdown will have on the canary economy. I think that you are trying to argue a bit back to front. If the illegal renting stopping is not going to have a massive impact on the canary economy, then it must be so insignificant in numbers, so why attack it at all? You can not have it both ways, if the illegal letting is actually so big a thing in numbers in that it is a serious threat to the legal market, then to stop it must surely mean a huge impact on the canary economy?
I honestly dont think a lot of you realise the effect this law has on All of you.Not just those that rent out their apts legally or not.The damage to the property market in the Canaries will be awful,more so on those properties that are so called "residential".Take some time out to read Loaded,s property blog(its on his profile),this well written(if slightly subjective) piece tells a lot about the 1995 lettings law.Now the so called "friends and family " get out clause is dealt with in this piece. Quote from Loaded,s blog:
You will often hear mention of "friends & family" being allowed to stay and many owners come up with ideas along the lines of; "if I've spoke to them on the phone then they're my friends, so since they're my friends they can stay in my apartment." - however there is no mention in the laws about friends and family being allowed. Indeed the only thing close to this being mentioned is in article 31 of the 7/1995 law where it states the definition of tourist accommodation and tourist activity:
This is obviously referring to people who may wish to buy for the purpose of letting it out,thus warning them of not using the Friends and family as an escape clause.but what effect do you think this law is having on those potential buyers out there who DONT want to let out their property.Let me give you an example
.Im just about to retire,my mortgage has finished,I want to spend half my time in the UK and half in a holiday home somewhere in the world,I have a daughter and two grandchildren who, I want them to be able to use the home in their holidays,whether I,m there or not.I have no intention of letting my home out for commercial purposes. After reading this Blog and learning about the rules on letting to friends and family, would I be confident that Tenerife is the place for me?,would I be able to say for sure that I wouldn,t be breaking the law.
The answer must be no.
If I owned property on a residential complex,I would be seriously worried about the future,would you risk buying at this time.Everything might be fine at the moment but who knows when you may need to sell up and return home,illness,loss of income,missing family.Who will be prepared to buy your property whilst these ambiguous laws exist?.What is needed, is clarity.So that both the letting and buying market know where they stand
Sundowner
08-02-2012, 00:31
Over 300 pages of posts and all that has been resolved is that there is a clear distinction between people who brought to be on a residential complex and those who paid less in the hope of making money to buy illeglally to let holiday lettings on residential complexes!
As always in life there will be winners and losers......I feel some sympathy for those who were miss sold there property.....but that should be another thread.........( I was told lies about my purchase.com)
The truth is that this law was known too most when it was introduced in 1995 and if you gambled it would not be enforced you lost!!! The laws in France,Italy,Greece and Portugal or anywhere else do not matter!!!! Obey the law of the land that you live in or invested in!!!!
There are more "losers" than just the apartment owners. There are lots of holidaymakers who won't be able to stay where they want to.
At a ratio of possibly 80 persons per apartment across the year that's a lot of people.
It will take a while to show up in the numbers as this year is well booked up. A lot of those bookings will be illegal ones being honoured. Once they've been driven from the market I would assume the drop will show up with the local businesses.
I would ask any business orientated person on here, "would you buy a bar on the Mirador strip?" Who would be confident enough to invest because they don't believe the economy will be affected by the letting laws?
delderek
08-02-2012, 10:20
All this talk about the EL Mirador strip, dont forget the 2000 or so legal apartments/Hotel rooms/Time share places. Anyone one would think the whole of Oasis Del Sur was shut.
All this talk about the EL Mirador strip, dont forget the 2000 or so legal apartments/Hotel rooms/Time share places. Anyone one would think the whole of Oasis Del Sur was shut.
I used it as an example because apart from anything else it's an area I'm familiar with. It isn't meant to cause offence and I apologise if that's how it comes across. This isn't something I'm wishing on anyone. I have concerns for the future and stand by my question, who would buy a bar there? I wish none of this was happening but it evidently is.
@AJP : thanks for the nice comments about my blog. You're right that a genuine person wanting to allow friends and family may be put off by my comments, that's really not my intention as I believe people who genuinely use their apartments for friends and family will not have to worry - what does grind my gears are people who rent out to all and sundry and then claim it's just to their friends and family - it insults the intelligence of a lot of people on here and jeopardises the legality / safety of those who genuinely do let to friends and family.
What I do not understand here is the issue that many on here, Nelson in particular, have very strong views on the damage they feel this law is doing/going to have on the Canarian economy.
The reality though, as has been said over and over is that, it is their country, they have the right to make whatever laws they wish, and in this particular case where their decisions were challenged, have had their decisions rubber stamped by Europe at the highest level. Bottom line is therefore that there is precious little chance of anything much changing on the back of a (perhaps significant) number of Johnny Foreigner's being adversly effected.
The only way the Cabildo would consider any change is if they were to see a significant downturn in the primary business of the Islands - tourism.
That said, at the same time as pushing ahead with this clampdown the Cabildo have also sat back and allowed the majority of the major tour companies to change to offering AI deals only. The irony is of course that it is more likely to be the case that the rapidly increasing AI holiday market will have a far larger effect on the bars and restaurants, and see the official tourist numbers continue to rise for the forseeable future.
We may not understand the Cabildo's logic behind their decisions, we may strongly disagree with their logic, but at the end of the day these are their decisions which they are entitled to make and have the sanction of Europe to continue with. The Cabildo have shyed away from two meetings and have made token gestures by reducing some of the appealed fines from 18 to 15k. Anyone who see's the courts as being sympathetic to the extent that the fines will be reduced to 1.5k and/or the law will be revoked on order of the courts would seem to have a long painful and expensive journey ahead I fear.
I was in mongolian BBQ for my partners birthday on feb 1.
Every table was in use and the wait for the BBQ was about 15-20 mins.
We then went to Taylors lounge for a drink after but there were NO tables free inside or out!
Ended up in shambles which was also rammed so had one drink and left with kids.
So yes it's dead
Senor Escobedo has stated that the apartments add up to 30 hotels worth of visitors.
... I am sure the 30 hotels would have been put as an upper limit to make a case more dramatic.
it would be great to know the exact figure
The clandestine apartment business is calculated by Ashotel to be about 15,000 beds .... so that would be about 30 fair sized hotels. I'd say about a million people a year.
With an illegal undeclared black market economy of that size, we can't be surprised if something is done about it. In fact .... what took them so long?
It is tough if you make your money within this black market economy, and tougher if you don't, but depend on it.
The tourism on this island will not suffer .... but watch out for quite a large demographic change. Time to adapt.
Moratorium has been in place for years preventing new tourist accommodation from being built.
During and before that time "illegal accommodation" has flourished.
Is anyone else thinking : stop the illegal beds and create a higher demand for existing accommodation then remove the moratorium so new tourist accommodation can be built again?
That would stimulate the economy big time
seanocelt
08-02-2012, 13:17
And......timeshare was the stimulant in the early days of expansion.
I often wonder if after a couple of years of "clamping down", all will go quiet again ..... as has been the case with many "unusual" laws that the govt have brought in over the years! (I remember a good few years back, when a law came in saying all bars on complexes had to be closed and empty of anyone other than staff by 11.45pm! I had a bar at the time and the police came and checked every night for about three months, then a few times a week for about two months and then never again!! Now I rent the bar out and it is often open till 3am, and providing nobody complains about noise etc, everyone seems happy with that!) Having said all that I wouldn't want to risk renting out an illegal bed myself ... but so many folk have every intention of continuing even with the fines being so evident, if things quieten down I can imagine many people will just carry on as they were before.
Peterrayner
08-02-2012, 14:27
I would ask any business orientated person on here, "would you buy a bar on the Mirador strip?" Who would be confident enough to invest because they don't believe the economy will be affected by the letting laws?
no but they might sell one :wink:
The agent holding the exploitation licence on our complex offers a set amount of money to our owners for the rental of their apartment for the year. The owner is only allowed the use of their own apartment for four weeks, to be taken in May/June, September/October. One of the owners has spoken to her Gestoria who has told her that the agent can not legally do this? Any thoughts?
bonitatime
08-02-2012, 15:24
Is there not a system by which you could get a new agent or is Yours one of the complexes which the agent owns lots of apartments
Is there not a system by which you could get a new agent or is Yours one of the complexes which the agent owns lots of apartments
The agent owns 77 apartments on a complex of 244.
Red Devil
08-02-2012, 18:51
I honestly dont think a lot of you realise the effect this law has on All of you.Not just those that rent out their apts legally or not.The damage to the property market in the Canaries will be awful,more so on those properties that are so called "residential".Take some time out to read Loaded,s property blog(its on his profile),this well written(if slightly subjective) piece tells a lot about the 1995 lettings law.Now the so called "friends and family " get out clause is dealt with in this piece. Quote from Loaded,s blog:
You will often hear mention of "friends & family" being allowed to stay and many owners come up with ideas along the lines of; "if I've spoke to them on the phone then they're my friends, so since they're my friends they can stay in my apartment." - however there is no mention in the laws about friends and family being allowed. Indeed the only thing close to this being mentioned is in article 31 of the 7/1995 law where it states the definition of tourist accommodation and tourist activity:
This is obviously referring to people who may wish to buy for the purpose of letting it out,thus warning them of not using the Friends and family as an escape clause.but what effect do you think this law is having on those potential buyers out there who DONT want to let out their property.Let me give you an example
.Im just about to retire,my mortgage has finished,I want to spend half my time in the UK and half in a holiday home somewhere in the world,I have a daughter and two grandchildren who, I want them to be able to use the home in their holidays,whether I,m there or not.I have no intention of letting my home out for commercial purposes. After reading this Blog and learning about the rules on letting to friends and family, would I be confident that Tenerife is the place for me?,would I be able to say for sure that I wouldn,t be breaking the law.
The answer must be no.
If I owned property on a residential complex,I would be seriously worried about the future,would you risk buying at this time.Everything might be fine at the moment but who knows when you may need to sell up and return home,illness,loss of income,missing family.Who will be prepared to buy your property whilst these ambiguous laws exist?.What is needed, is clarity.So that both the letting and buying market know where they stand
AJP you are 100% right, clarity has been needed for all these years BUT, if your dream is to spend longer periods in Tenerife then don't let this lettings problem stop you in any way.
If you intend using it for yourself, relatives or friends (who are not considered tourists as in payment being made) you will have absolutely no problem, you are not breaking any law and you are entitled to use your own apartment in this way free of hindrance.
As for buying and your worries for the future, who knows in the property market anywhere? However I just cannot see long term how you could fail in Tenerife - the climate, short flight time, stable economy ( well, the euro so of a sort) plus people wanting to holiday/live there from all of Northern Europe.
We own on a residential complex, I am convinced our property isnt going to plummet in price as it is very well established with a lot of full time residents.
If you do have worries though you could long term rent for 6 months a year. Dont let it stop you achieving what you really want to do.
We bought 13 years ago and have gradually stayed in Tenerife for longer and longer periods, now here for 5 months.
We smile when we see the TV pictures showing the weather in UK and read all the doom and gloom as we feel truly lucky that whilst we still have our health we are fortunate enough to come to this beautiful island every winter.
Every day we walk on the beach/ eat very cheaply at many nice bars/restaurants/catch the bus and explore somewhere different or simply chat with all the other similar people here all doing exactly the same as us. At night we can stay in or go out, the choice is ours. Back at home we would have to start de-icing the car before setting off anywhere.
Life is good, make the most of it - what would you be doing at home over the winter?
Please, just go for it while you can.
.
Is anyone else thinking : stop the illegal beds and create a higher demand for existing accommodation then remove the moratorium so new tourist accommodation can be built again?
Said that already, El Mojon, fit a whole load of tourists there
delderek
08-02-2012, 20:08
Said that already, El Mojon, fit a whole load of tourists there
If I was a cynical person, I would say that this is the point of the whole excercise. Making a case for the moratorium to be ended, and get permission granted for new TOURIST complexes to be built. Due to a lack of tourist accomodation.:whistle:
If I was a cynical person, I would say that this is the point of the whole excercise. Making a case for the moratorium to be ended, and get permission granted for new TOURIST complexes to be built. Due to a lack of tourist accomodation.:whistle:
High Five...
Said that already, El Mojon, fit a whole load of tourists there
Yep, the tourists should love it up there near the motorway, plenty of space to party and just a short taxi ride away from anything.
Keeps the taxi drivers busy though, but wait a minute, who´s going to invest in property here, some very hard selling required, does anybody actually believe that the displaced tourists will stay this distance away from the coast ?
delderek
08-02-2012, 20:43
It's probably no further than the top bits of oasis del sur,,,and not so high up.
Other undeveloped land in front of las Americas golf behind hyper trebol In los cristianos. Plus edge of Los
Cristianos above oasis mango...
Added after 2 minutes:
And around Paloma beach between Parque tropical and the coast
El Mojon as in the other side of the Los Cristianos roundabout towards the Autopista (Where the roads, plots & Infrastructure have been prepared since about 5-6 years ago)
It'll have ALL the establishments of a modern day exclusive tourist arrangment.
Is anyone else thinking : stop the illegal beds and create a higher demand for existing accommodation then remove the moratorium so new tourist accommodation can be built again?
So...........
Stop all the illegal beds which will create ghettos of thousands of repossessed, boarded up properties throughout the Canaries.
And then.....................
Build thousands more and try to sell them in the biggest housing depression ever known in the Canaries.
Have you been reading "Muppet's Book of Canarian Fairytales"? :)
Ghettos indeed.............................pfft
Red Devil
08-02-2012, 22:28
Moratorium has been in place for years preventing new tourist accommodation from being built.
During and before that time "illegal accommodation" has flourished.
Is anyone else thinking : stop the illegal beds and create a higher demand for existing accommodation then remove the moratorium so new tourist accommodation can be built again?
That would stimulate the economy big time
Hey ... I have an idea! How about using the existing flourishing "illegal" accommodation already there in the tourist areas and re-name them as "tourist". Saves an awful lot of effort (and a few years)
Then everyone can pay their taxes and stimulate the economy:lol:
yes we all know this crackdown is barking mad but all this talk of building acres of brand new tourist accomodation to replace the existing illegal stuff is just double insane.
Lets face it the hotel lobby who have got the law in in 1995 and have asked for the crackdown in 2008, and also it is them that have lobbied for the moratorium, well frankly they are not going to agree to any new tourist development. It is their protectionist standpoint that runs the whole show. The groiwth of illegal letting in the canaries is as a result of the moratorium, without the illegal apartments tourism would have stagnated for 15 years, numbers limited to what existed at the start of the moratarium. Remember sole letting guys, to the hotel lobby you are as much the enemy as the illegal apartments, they are not on your side.
All this talk of new build tourist complex's makes me think about the empty touristic places that exist now and have closed down. Look at Atlantida, very large place , struggled for years, then closed. That place could easily be sold off to private renters and the whole place be full once more. What could not happen is that someone could re run it as a self catering hotel, that business model is not viable, but the model of small private internet renter certainly is.
If not broke dont fix it, the canarires had a very strong small renting sector before the crack down, what is needed is reform on the portugese model, legal letting with registration of apartments and an annual permit fee paid to the government.
Remember in all this talk of trying to legalize residential complexes, that many people have bought on a residential complex to be just this, and do not want all the noise into the early hours of the morning, that we get at present with our neighbours illegally letting.
Remember in all this talk of trying to legalize residential complexes, that many people have bought on a residential complex to be just this, and do not want all the noise into the early hours of the morning, that we get at present with our neighbours illegally letting.
Residential complexes will not be changed to touristic and nor is anyone lobbying for this.
Ghettos indeed.............................pfft
If all "illegal" rental is stopped, some complexes could become like ghost towns. We have yet to see the full impact these sanctions are having, as the rentals already booked diminish. On our complex we have a number of late and non paying owners who were struggling with fees even before these fines hit, what now for them if they cant subsidise their outgoings and have the full cost of the "2nd home".
The last thing on their mind will be community fees, without which the complex cannot function.
There are new "luxury" apartment blocks built in the uk only5 or 6 yeary ago, which are now very close to being "ghettos". They were never fully occupied, the investors unable to fill them due to the downturn then cannot pay their fees and because of such the whole place becomes untidy and creates a situation where they cannot be resold or even let because of the state of the communal areas.
Coming to a place near you !
Buy to rent really was a mass brain wash for hundreds and thousands of people
I blame all those money, get rich quick, it's alright here, Lifestyle, borrow some money its freeish type of TV programs.
If you heard it enough times you'd start to believe that it's OK to take on a €250,000 second home whilst you haven't a pot to pee in.
Theres a lot of maybes, coulds, IMHOs, it'll be like this, doomsday, hotel lobbys said this said that, we all know this's in this thread, just like there was when the no smoking in bars and public places came into force.
Now look! if you want a fag you simply go on the terrace or outside and smoke one.
Mark you're not seriously suggesting that people will Eventually just get on with it are you?????
jogger321
10-02-2012, 01:08
Sorry for the slight off topic but I was watching some old VHS video's of some overseas property programmes that I recorded a few years ago. I never really looked at them before but having just watched them it seems there is something called "buying off plan" where basically you sit on your **** put a deposit a property that hasn't been built yet, sell it on before additional payments become due before its fully built and watch the cash roll in. There was a woman on one of these programmes that told the well known presenter Tracy Sunshine that although she knew nothing about property she had given up her job to sit on her **** all day and become a property developer specialising in off plan developments and was making more money per month than she did a year in her previous job in investing in off plan developements. She added that she had been so successful that she was now going to diversify into holiday lettings..
I was wondering are there any "off plan" opportunities still available in Tenerife?
Peterrayner
10-02-2012, 05:03
sniff sniff is that the faintest whiiff ???
Mark you're not seriously suggesting that people will Eventually just get on with it are you?????
That's exactly what will happen.
I was wondering are there any "off plan" opportunities still available in Tenerife?
Thousands. You might never see a finished property though. I see BIG developments that were supposed to be finished this year with maybe 2 builders on them. Progress seems to be VERY slow. Some sites have nobody on at all and have not had for a long time. Buying off-plane here is a Russian Roulette gamble.
Peterrayner
10-02-2012, 12:14
That's exactly what will happen.
and what dosnt kill you makes you stronger. :)
golf birdie
10-02-2012, 12:22
Thousands. You might never see a finished property though. I see BIG developments that were supposed to be finished this year with maybe 2 builders on them. Progress seems to be VERY slow. Some sites have nobody on at all and have not had for a long time. Buying off-plane here is a Russian Roulette gamble.
which is why I can't see a rush of devolopers or investors risking their cash to build any new places. You only need to take a flight to the south of Spain to see the problems that over devoloping has caused. A friend of mine brought off plan there (against my advice), 50k down on a 220,000 apartment. Its now un-sellable and he is trying to walk away from it.
which is why I can't see a rush of devolopers or investors risking their cash to build any new places. You only need to take a flight to the south of Spain to see the problems that over devoloping has caused. A friend of mine brought off plan there (against my advice), 50k down on a 220,000 apartment. Its now un-sellable and he is trying to walk away from it.
At El Mojon where theres enough space to put more than 30 Hotels and/or other forms of Legal tourist accommodation, theres already some of Spains biggest construction and investment companys making enquiries
golf birdie
10-02-2012, 13:25
I think you live in another world from me.
I think you live in another world from me.
Why?.............
golf birdie
10-02-2012, 13:51
Why?.............
I'll let you know in 5 years:whistle:
I'll let you know in 5 years:whistle:
Yet more personnal opinions.
Create some work those new tourist beds will.
It's all personal opinion, and it's not a crime to have one. It's a forum!
golf birdie
10-02-2012, 14:26
Yet more personnal opinions.
Create some work those new tourist beds will.
if they fill Tenerife with hotels it will be a disaster. If they build Tourist apartments that are affordable for the swallows who spend vast amounts of time here it may work. Please let me know when the first block is laid.
They are working on it. Swallows can **** off to the residential accommodation.
They have already started. The whole urbanisation & infrastructure was finish 5-6 years ago
golf birdie
10-02-2012, 15:01
They are working on it. Swallows can **** off to the residential accommodation.
They have already started. The whole urbanisation & infrastructure was finish 5-6 years ago
I thought it was illegal ! As for the land where you are now talking about was that not ear marked as a commercial area?
Illegal comes down to whether the swallows are short term or long term
And so does the choice of accomodation for them.
The land goes from the los Cristianos roundabout to the Autopista i mentioned that the other day in a reply to you.
The land will be an extention to the existing urbanisation, which will be a percentage for commerical, touristic, residential, ocio, parks
One of the most common ways to create new urbanisations is to finish the infrastructure and sit on it for 5 years, then and only then are the roads classed as old to start building.
Not to be confused with Oh My God they put the roads in havent laid a block so its a non starter
golf birdie
10-02-2012, 15:23
Illegal comes down to whether the swallows are short term or long term
with 6 months being the minimum for a legal let I'd say 99% would fall short. Price these tourist out of the market and there is no market.
3 months you can cut contract
Would most swallows be here for a minimum of 3 months?
3 months you can cut contract
Would most swallows be here for a minimum of 3 months?
Not many due to limitations on both home and travel insurance
we get them all wanting 3 months. Every day it's the same conversation with them: do you do long stays? 3 months; january february and march. we want morning sun, do you do a discount for long stays? yaaaaaaaaawnnnnnnnnnnnn
we get them all wanting 3 months. Every day it's the same conversation with them: do you do long stays? 3 months; january february and march. we want morning sun, do you do a discount for long stays? yaaaaaaaaawnnnnnnnnnnnn
I don't understand why you would ridicule people who phone you up for apartments. It is ,after all, what you do for a living. Who else are they supposed to call if they wish to stay there? Some of those people may well be on here and you're yawning at them. Please give us lesser mortals a break.....
Not many due to limitations on both home and travel insurance
I guess a tourist classification should be someone who stays for less than 2 months, but that would be a loophole and complicate other parts of laws
I don't understand why you would ridicule people who phone you up for apartments. It is ,after all, what you do for a living. Who else are they supposed to call if they wish to stay there? Some of those people may well be on here and you're yawning at them. Please give us lesser mortals a break.....
After they have seen Loaded they come to us. Same questions and expect 3 month for between 500.00 - 600.00 per month - hence the yawn!
After they have seen Loaded they come to us. Same questions and expect 3 month for between €500.00 - €600.00 per month - hence the yawn!
Ah, I see. Sorry, my mistake. I think I'll give it a go with my business. I'll let you know how I get on....
Peterrayner
10-02-2012, 18:11
After they have seen Loaded they come to us. Same questions and expect 3 month for between €500.00 - €600.00 per month - hence the yawn!
3 months @ 600e a month send them to me then. :)
They aren't your friends nor your family Peterrrrr
Lol!
Perhaps a little disrespectful of me It's just that on the first cloudy day they all decide that today's the day to wonder around everywhere looking for "next year" and practically tyre kick their way around Los cristianos.
They're under the misapprehension That Jan feb and march are quiet months and seem almost offended that we offer no discount to them.
Some of the ones that do come write lists of things they feel should be in the apartments such as rolling pins, pastry shapers, other random kitchen items not normally contemplated....
Others demand second sets of tables and chairs are purchased for their stay even if there's no space for them.....
If a Tv channel is down then the end of the world is upon us - "I only booked because you had x or y channel last year"......
We've had complaints that the maids have "stolen" their tea towels during a linen change....
Others want to know the exact time linen changes will take place.....
Let's just say we don't encourage them.
Added after 3 minutes:
Not yet........
I guess a tourist classification should be someone who stays for less than 2 months, but that would be a loophole and complicate other parts of laws
8/9 weeks would work for a lot of people esp in winter and they are not normally rowdy tourists
delderek
10-02-2012, 20:57
Lol!
Perhaps a little disrespectful of me It's just that on the first cloudy day they all decide that today's the day to wonder around everywhere looking for "next year" and practically tyre kick their way around Los cristianos.
They're under the misapprehension That Jan feb and march are quiet months and seem almost offended that we offer no discount to them.
Some of the ones that do come write lists of things they feel should be in the apartments such as rolling pins, pastry shapers, other random kitchen items not normally contemplated....
Others demand second sets of tables and chairs are purchased for their stay even if there's no space for them.....
If a Tv channel is down then the end of the world is upon us - "I only booked because you had x or y channel last year"......
We've had complaints that the maids have "stolen" their tea towels during a linen change....
Others want to know the exact time linen changes will take place.....
Let's just say we don't encourage them.
Added after 3 minutes:
Not yet........
Not taking sides here, but do you not think, that this is why the "Residential" apartments are so popular with tourists, they get most of what they want, for a reasonable price, and would get a discount for a longer stay.
As most don't pay tax and other stuff?
Peterrayner
10-02-2012, 22:21
They aren't your friends nor your family Peterrrrr
3 months = legal residential long let on a Contrato Arrendamiento de Vivienda. will take 600 euros a month all inclusive all day long thanks
3 months = legal residential long let on a Contrato Arrendamiento de Vivienda. will take 600 euros a month all inclusive all day long thanks
**** Yeah...
On the bandwagon
They aren't your friends nor your family Peterrrrr
Only takes a drink and a chat, the possibilities are endless
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 07:15
**** Yeah...
On the bandwagon
**** pfft. :wink:
Not taking sides here, but do you not think, that this is why the "Residential" apartments are so popular with tourists, they get most of what they want, for a reasonable price, and would get a discount for a longer stay.
of course that is the situation. The demanding clients loaded is exaserperated by and mocking are obviously used to residential private let apartments. The obscure kitchen utensil demands are what you get in private apartments.
what loaded has to remember is that the reason private apartments do long lets cheaper is that private apartments are not burdened with wholly unescesary extra overheads like 24 hour reception and 3 times per week cleaning. So if people want to spend a long break stay in an apartment it makes sense to chose a self catering no frills option. That should be what the canary government are happy to see, diversity of options for clients. Some may want full on hotel comforts but others will be happy to budget for the no frills long stay choice. The other factor which gives the client a cheap deal on a private let is the owners desire just to cover costs and not to make a commercial profit. Most small letting owners charge to get back mortgages,community fees etc. I know none who can make any profit except those that have no mortgage. This also gives the long stay client a better deal..
Before anyone says small renters pay no tax, we are all campaigning for legal letting on the portugese model and lobbying for a system of annual permit payment for registered private renters.
There is enough business for everyone , hotels, apartments and cheaper long lets with less frills. That is all good for the canary economy and has been for many years.
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 09:40
Only takes a drink and a chat, the possibilities are endless
didnt we do that :wink:
of course that is the situation. The demanding clients loaded is exaserperated by and mocking are obviously used to residential private let apartments. The obscure kitchen utensil demands are what you get in private apartments.
what loaded has to remember is that the reason private apartments do long lets cheaper is that private apartments are not burdened with wholly unescesary extra overheads like 24 hour reception and 3 times per week cleaning. So if people want to spend a long break stay in an apartment it makes sense to chose a self catering no frills option. That should be what the canary government are happy to see, diversity of options for clients. Some may want full on hotel comforts but others will be happy to budget for the no frills long stay choice. The other factor which gives the client a cheap deal on a private let is the owners desire just to cover costs and not to make a commercial profit. Most small letting owners charge to get back mortgages,community fees etc. I know none who can make any profit except those that have no mortgage. This also gives the long stay client a better deal..
Before anyone says small renters pay no tax, we are all campaigning for legal letting on the portugese model and lobbying for a system of annual permit payment for registered private renters.
There is enough business for everyone , hotels, apartments and cheaper long lets with less frills. That is all good for the canary economy and has been for many years.
Where is this ALL of us campaign?
The minute you recieved €0.01 centimo or more towards your mortgage that is profit.
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 09:56
Where is this ALL of us campaign?
The minute you recieved €0.01 centimo or more towards your mortgage that is profit.
Not according to my accountant.. it would be turnover / income first.
Might or might not be profit later :wink: depends what I spend the "income" on IIRC :)
golf birdie
11-02-2012, 10:35
we get them all wanting 3 months. Every day it's the same conversation with them: do you do long stays? 3 months; january february and march. we want morning sun, do you do a discount for long stays? yaaaaaaaaawnnnnnnnnnnnn
it seems quite clear you don't want them so they go where they are welcome. Can't see why you get upset when others provide the service you can't/don't want to. Seems some can't/don't want 5 star service so whats the answer?
Where is this ALL of us campaign?
The minute you recieved €0.01 centimo or more towards your mortgage that is profit.
you always get that wrong, its the same in any business, and at the moment there are many business's actually making loss's. Mortgage interest is tax allowable, capital repayment is not. All the outgoings on the apartment like utilities, repairs,etc are tax allowable.
You can not get away from the fact that small private renters are happy to rent out just to cover their costs and are not looking to make a profit. Its a buy to let investment, so the bonus is hopefully when the mortgage is paid off they have a property that the renters have paid for.
Its nothing to be ashamed of and has been a great contributer to the canary economy . Moving forward though, I think it right and sensible that to reform the current problem the canary government regualtes and charges these renters annually , this would be fair and sensible.
it seems quite clear you don't want them so they go where they are welcome. Can't see why you get upset when others provide the service you can't/don't want to. Seems some can't/don't want 5 star service so whats the answer?
Minimum 3 months under a Spanish contract is legal for them to stay where they wish!
Illegal short term letting is where the problem is and this is what the authorities are concerned about.
Minimum 3 months under a Spanish contract is legal for them to stay where they wish!
Illegal short term letting is where the problem is and this is what the authorities are concerned about.
The 'authorities' are concerned about ALL aspects of the apartment rental sector.
Hence the fine issued against Paraiso Royale in PDLA for not having sufficient Reception facilities, the complex in Gran Canaria that was sanctioned for the exploitation license holder not being correctly named on the documents, so this seems far more wide ranging than 'The illegal short term renting'.
golf birdie
11-02-2012, 11:00
Minimum 3 months under a Spanish contract is legal for them to stay where they wish!
Illegal short term letting is where the problem is and this is what the authorities are concerned about.
so the ones who come year after year for less than 3 months, say 9 or 10 weeks, who want the home comforts at a price thats affordable can just take a hike. Going to be great for the Island and businesses in the resorts.
The 'authorities' are concerned about ALL aspects of the apartment rental sector.
Hence the fine issued against Paraiso Royale in PDLA for not having sufficient Reception facilities, the complex in Gran Canaria that was sanctioned for the exploitation license holder not being correctly named on the documents, so this seems far more wide ranging than 'The illegal short term renting'.
What is interesting is that Gran Canaria case seems to be perhaps the only one we have picked up in the Boletin that was not located in Tenerife ... perhaps "the Authorities" are not unanimous in the enforcement of these laws.
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 11:42
I suspect given this is clealry a revenue raising exercise they might have concentrated the majority of the new inspectors first on Tenerife ( biggest market) and will move on to other islands in rotation.
So GC might now be under investigation perhaps with Lanzorate nezt and with the samller islands they could split into smaller teams.
They have stated this is NOT a temporary situation nor is it limited to one year.
The 'authorities' are concerned about ALL aspects of the apartment rental sector.
Hence the fine issued against Paraiso Royale in PDLA for not having sufficient Reception facilities, the complex in Gran Canaria that was sanctioned for the exploitation license holder not being correctly named on the documents, so this seems far more wide ranging than 'The illegal short term renting'.
I agree, the concern is illegal short term letting. Even on a touristic complex the infastructure has to be in place and compliant with the relevant laws, if not then fines can be issued not just on the apartment owners but also the company exploiting the apartments.
bonitatime
11-02-2012, 12:13
I don't think anyone is worried if you are long term letting in your residential apartments. Not other residents, not hotels nor the tax man. It is the short term 1 or 2 weeks which upsets everyone especially on residential apartments.
golf birdie
11-02-2012, 12:26
I don't think anyone is worried if you are long term letting in your residential apartments. Not other residents, not hotels nor the tax man. It is the short term 1 or 2 weeks which upsets everyone especially on residential apartments.
we suffer more from long term rentals. Holiday makers can be a pain but they go after a week or two.
you always get that wrong, its the same in any business, and at the moment there are many business's actually making loss's. Mortgage interest is tax allowable, capital repayment is not. All the outgoings on the apartment like utilities, repairs,etc are tax allowable.
You can not get away from the fact that small private renters are happy to rent out just to cover their costs and are not looking to make a profit. Its a buy to let investment, so the bonus is hopefully when the mortgage is paid off they have a property that the renters have paid for.
Its nothing to be ashamed of and has been a great contributer to the canary economy . Moving forward though, I think it right and sensible that to reform the current problem the canary government regualtes and charges these renters annually , this would be fair and sensible.
If it's a business expect to pay 270 a month Social security whether you earn profit or not
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 13:32
If it's a business expect to pay €270 a month Social security whether you earn profit or not
pfft....only if its a local register business and I wanted to register has a fiscal resident working autonomo and be entitled to local benefits... otherwise its just income to be declared. :wink:
my eye is starting to hurt :)
Only want to use the law when it suits you pfft
Velocette
11-02-2012, 13:46
we suffer more from long term rentals. Holiday makers can be a pain but they go after a week or two.
When you say you suffer from long term rentals, I take it that you mean they are disruptive, and a nuisance. I'm retired and renting for 6 months, I just assumed that all long term rentals would be retired, good tenants, responsible and considerate, or at least too mature for late night revelling and acting out, not so?
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 13:52
Only want to use the law when it suits you pfft
which law ???
which law ???
Tell ya pals to pay up lad
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 14:04
Tell ya pals to pay up lad
I am sure they will when "they" ask them.
So far none of them have been yet. "wink"
golf birdie
11-02-2012, 14:04
When you say you suffer from long term rentals, I take it that you mean they are disruptive, and a nuisance. I'm retired and renting for 6 months, I just assumed that all long term rentals would be retired, good tenants, responsible and considerate, or at least too mature for late night revelling and acting out, not so?
the workers and families who for some strange reason must have a dog that barks all day or kids who scream instead of talking. Get rid of one and the next is worse.
Tell ya pals to pay up lad
of course the sensible way forward in this problem is for some direct permit payment per year to allow private renting, people have not contributed in the past, they were treated as illegal black market, so this thing needs sorting on a sensible basis. Compromise is needed on both sides.
willowlily
11-02-2012, 15:12
pfft....only if its a local register business and I wanted to register has a fiscal resident working autonomo and be entitled to local benefits... otherwise its just income to be declared. :
my eye is starting to hurt :)
dont want to go off topic but it seems the same tax rules apply as in the uk regarding income derived from rentals, in the uk i am not even considered self employed as my sole income in uk is from uk property rentals so i dont pay n.i. just tax after tax free allowance and expences.
I could go with this
1, Permits for stand-alone dwelling not forming part of a community
2, Sole agents for Touristic complexes brill idea. The only real way forward with 24hr reception. Really like this idea.
3, No short term renting on Residential complexes ever, if caught heavy fines and the loss of your dwelling.
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 15:28
I could go with this
1, Permits for stand-alone dwelling not forming part of a community
2, Sole agents for Touristic complexes brill idea. The only real way forward with 24hr reception. Really like this idea.
3, No short term renting on Residential complexes ever, if caught heavy fines and the loss of your dwelling.
7000 plus empty properties available at knock down prices to locals. Maybe that was the plan all along. :eek:
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 16:07
7000?.......
well people keep telling me over 7400 fines have been issued to owners.
welshman
11-02-2012, 16:17
I must have upset some one as my last few posts have been deleted?
But didn't you say they were fines and not individual people?
eg. Some people have recieved 2 fines ?
Also agencies etc
well people keep telling me over 7400 fines have been issued to owners.
Haven't most owners been fined for two or three items ??? And I was never sure if it was 7.000 inspections or 7.000 fines - we know places like Paloma Beach were inspected, does that mean 150-200 plus inspections per complex ???
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 17:10
But didn't you say they were fines and not individual people?
eg. Some people have recieved 2 fines ?
Also agencies etc
wooooooooooooooooooooooosh.......................: devil2:
You did say that didn't you ?
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 17:55
You did say that didn't you ?
the post wasnt about what I said though :)
The evidence for the total fines at 7400 comes direct from a lawyer handling many appeals in Tenerife.
Are you disputing this evidence ???
Based on 3 fines per notification, as I stated previously, this amounts to a total of about 2000+ notifications.
Allowing for somew of these will have been issued to agencies then the total for private owners would be slightly less than 2000.
Given you have asserted there are non issued on the other islands I can only presume you are asserting
a) the total number of fines reported has issued is not accurate.
b) all the notifications have been issued on Tenerife alone.
Added after 4 Hours 57 minutes:
An interesting "sanction" listed on the BOC ref 355 against Royal Apartsol, S.L at an establishment named has Apartamentos Paraiso Royal. Listed on TripAdvisor as a 3* Hotel with 70 Bedrooms.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=paraiso+royal+apartments+tenerife&form=MSNH90&qs=AS&sk=AS1&pq=paraiso+royal&sp=2&sc=6-13&x=117&y=15
2 fines listed at 22,700E each for "grave" breeches of Law 7 /1995.
Added after 6 Hours 13 minutes:
Looking on Tripadvisor it generally has good reviews however there are some complaints mostly because the reception closes at 2pm daily and all weekend from Friday till Monday which causes problems for clients arriving in the evening or at weekends. A 3 star rating and seems to be tourisitic.
Typical complaint significantly from a Spanish family who no doubt would know the offical route tocompalin and denounce them.
Para empezar llegamos un sabado y la recepcion estaba cerrada hasta el lunes , nos dejaron las llaves en el bar de la piscina , faltaban sabanas y toallas para los niños , la explicacion siempre en ingles fue " la recepcion no abre hasta el Lunes" tubimos que apañarnos con nuestras toallas de playa.
Para estar en familia NO es lo mas adecuado y ademas como no controles un poco de ingles estas perdido , nadie habla español. No lo recomiendo hay otros sitios de igual precio y bastante mejor .
For starters we arrived on a Saturday and the reception was closed until Monday, They left us the keys in the pool bar, Bed linen and towels for the children were missing. The explanation provided in English was "the reception does not open until Monday" we had to make do with our beach towels.
For a family this is not the most suitable and also as we use English we are lost, no one speaks Spanish. Not recommended as there are other sites and much better price.
These heavy fines ??? are for
First.- Lack of availability of the mandatory complaint forms, as well as can be seen from inspection report No. 17994.
Second .- Lack of avsailability of the the Tourist Inspection Book as well is clear from the inspection report No. 17994.
Added after 8 minutes:
PS
They might also cop a fine for not having a Spanish speaker available (another old law now being enforced I gather)
7000 Empty properties indeed Peter Piper - pfft
Remember what you've said in a debate especially on a Internet forum,
cheers Pal
x
delderek
11-02-2012, 19:55
And also remember Peter's adamant stance a few years ago, that the law could never be enforced, due to the "Friends and Family" get out, got quite heated at times as well. And that he was happy letting his place to tourists.
Peterrayner
11-02-2012, 20:32
7000 Empty properties indeed Peter Piper - pfft
Remember what you've said in a debate especially on a Internet forum,
cheers Pal
x
Pfft My name is Peter... not pal ;wink
I was talking about my post 3171
well people keep telling me over 7400 fines have been issued to owners.
HTH :)
Added after 2 minutes:
And also remember Peter's adamant stance a few years ago, that the law could never be enforced, due to the "Friends and Family" get out, got quite heated at times as well. And that he was happy letting his place to tourists.
selective memory there Del
My position was the law had not been enforced for over 15 years and I was happy letting to friends.
It has been enforced though - not as stringently as now but it has always been enforced
Angusjim
12-02-2012, 09:07
Minimum 3 months under a Spanish contract is legal for them to stay where they wish!
Illegal short term letting is where the problem is and this is what the authorities are concerned about.
Wrong what the corrupt bankrupt tinpot Canarian government are looking for are easy targets to take money from that wont cost them votes at the next election. Why not clamp down on the HUGE HUGE black economy in Tenerife !! oh sorry forgot they can't as that would make them unpopular with the local population and cost them votes :(
Added after 10 minutes:
I guess a tourist classification should be someone who stays for less than 2 months, but that would be a loophole and complicate other parts of laws
Now you are thinking out with the box there are many residential complexes where owners / long term renters / holiday lets live very happy together so why not have a proper legal scheme where you can register for the "swallow type market" with say a minium of 4 -6 week let. It is a huge market that may disappear and obviously Loaded & Oasis and others like them are not intrested in it due to the way their business is set up.
AJ, to be fair to Loaded & Oasis, they are unlikely to vote for a system that could jeopardise their income, and an allowance should be made for the length of time they've had to put up with knowing there was a law to protect them but was not being enforced.
There, that's my creeping done after having a dig at both of them recently..:)
I think the worst part of this is that even if one of us came up with the perfect happy medium deal, it wouldn't make any difference. We don't make the rules and they're not asking us for our opinion.
Now you are thinking out with the box there are many residential complexes where owners / long term renters / holiday lets live very happy together so why not have a proper legal scheme where you can register for the "swallow type market" with say a minium of 4 -6 week let. It is a huge market that may disappear and obviously Loaded & Oasis and others like them are not intrested in it due to the way their business is set up.
If they all lived happily together then there wouldn't be thousands of complaints to turismo and the southern townhalls would there?
That's what sparked the whole thing off, i'd said way before this crack down had started i had to friends working on this to see what the extent of illegal renting was.
Way too many complaints about noise, cowboy run outfits, fights etc etc. Spoilt it for the few better run ones.
Thats one of the main reasons its being enforced now...because its a totally unregulated market
Peterrayner
12-02-2012, 10:32
Thats one of the main reasons its being enforced now...because its a totally unregulated market
Thats fair enough its their market to regulate..... or not ......has they see fit.
and to some extent it was inevitable given the huge explosion caused by the advent of internet advertising.
I do hope however that they apply his to all the "markets" :wink:
perhaps starting with the taxi "market"
Starting with your mates Peter Pal
and thats why i back the sole agent on Touristic complexes
Angusjim
12-02-2012, 10:47
If they all lived happily together then there wouldn't be thousands of complaints to turismo and the southern townhalls would there?
That's what sparked the whole thing off, i'd said way before this crack down had started i had to friends working on this to see what the extent of illegal renting was.
Way too many complaints about noise, cowboy run outfits, fights etc etc. Spoilt it for the few better run ones.
Thats one of the main reasons its being enforced now...because its a totally unregulated market
Mark I did not say they all lived happily together I said there are many complexes where it does work and as for anti social behaviour the community can sort this out within there rules & regulations and take action against property owners. I owned on complex where it works great and the biggest issue we had was with the long term lets many of whom don't give a **** about their neighbours come home early hours of the morning from work them clump around in what seems like hob nail boots with music blaring for an hour or two before going to bed. What could be workable is some sort of registration with the consent of the community in the complex for " swallow type letting ". As for unregulated industries I would think there are many many in Tenerife like financial advisors, estate agents , construction companies etc etc so hardly something new to Tenerife to deal with unregulated companies, this is simply about raising money from soft targets, people who the government having knowingly allowed to carryout this for 15 years
If they all lived happily together then there wouldn't be thousands of complaints to turismo and the southern townhalls would there?
That's what sparked the whole thing off, i'd said way before this crack down had started i had to friends working on this to see what the extent of illegal renting was.
Way too many complaints about noise, cowboy run outfits, fights etc etc. Spoilt it for the few better run ones.
Thats one of the main reasons its being enforced now...because its a totally unregulated market
Mark I did not say they all lived happily together I said there are many complexes where it does work and as for anti social behaviour the community can sort this out within there rules & regulations and take action against property owners. I owned on complex where it works great and the biggest issue we had was with the long term lets many of whom don't give a **** about their neighbours come home early hours of the morning from work them clump around in what seems like hob nail boots with music blaring for an hour or two before going to bed. What could be workable is some sort of registration with the consent of the community in the complex for " swallow type letting ". As for unregulated industries I would think there are many many in Tenerife like financial advisors, estate agents , construction companies etc etc so hardly something new to Tenerife to deal with unregulated companies, this is simply about raising money from soft targets, people who the government having knowingly allowed to carryout this for 15 years
If they all lived happily together then there wouldn't be thousands of complaints to turismo and the southern townhalls would there?
That's what sparked the whole thing off, i'd said way before this crack down had started i had to friends working on this to see what the extent of illegal renting was.
Way too many complaints about noise, cowboy run outfits, fights etc etc. Spoilt it for the few better run ones.
Thats one of the main reasons its being enforced now...because its a totally unregulated market
Mark I did not say they all lived happily together I said there are many complexes where it does work and as for anti social behaviour the community can sort this out within there rules & regulations and take action against property owners. I owned on complex where it works great and the biggest issue we had was with the long term lets many of whom don't give a **** about their neighbours come home early hours of the morning from work them clump around in what seems like hob nail boots with music blaring for an hour or two before going to bed. What could be workable is some sort of registration with the consent of the community in the complex for " swallow type letting ". As for unregulated industries I would think there are many many in Tenerife like financial advisors, estate agents , construction companies etc etc so hardly something new to Tenerife to deal with unregulated companies, this is simply about raising money from soft targets, people who the government having knowingly allowed to carryout this for 15 years
Added after 21 minutes:
AJ, to be fair to Loaded & Oasis, they are unlikely to vote for a system that could jeopardise their income, and an allowance should be made for the length of time they've had to put up with knowing there was a law to protect them but was not being enforced.
There, that's my creeping done after having a dig at both of them recently..:)
I think the worst part of this is that even if one of us came up with the perfect happy medium deal, it wouldn't make any difference. We don't make the rules and they're not asking us for our opinion.
But they do not want the "swallow" trade as they have made clear and the "swallow" trade do not want to stay and probably cannot afford to stay in holiday type complexes like theirs so they are not loosing as the trade will not come their way anyhow. I for one have no interest in staying in a holiday complex like Paloma Beach and thats not me trying talking down the standard of the complex or apartments its just not what myself and many many other old farts are looking for thats why a rethink is required on how this can be accomodated in a regulated way. But you are correct it will not make a any difference what I think but no harm in expressing opinions about this subject:)
as for anti social behaviour the community can sort this out within there rules & regulations and take action against property owners.
No thats isn't how it works.
Peterrayner
12-02-2012, 11:18
Starting with your mates Peter Pal
and thats why i back the sole agent on Touristic complexes
ignore button is it working yet ???
Added after 6 minutes:
Starting with your mates Peter Pal
they dont pay anything ...............so its not a market :)
why have sole agents surely that would be going back to being dictated to.
Could someone give me the references of the Spanish/Canarian law(s) specifying the minimum LONG-TERM rental period, in months? Thank you. XVD
Could someone give me the references of the Spanish/Canarian law(s) specifying the minimum LONG-TERM rental period, in months? Thank you. XVD
This is the law http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/Derogadas/r2-va-l6-1994.html Spanish Law Ley 29/1994 de 24 de noviembre de Arrendamientos Urbanos
It doesn't actually state a minimum period or at what period a Short Term Let becomes Long Term ... many people issue contracts for 11 months in an attempt to avoid the rights a tenant gains once they have a yearly contract (i.e. right to a contract for a total of 5 years): other lawyers would say 6 months is the maximum recommended ... and then again, I have been told that regardless of the contracts issued, if a tenant is in possession of the property for at least a year, they gain the right to 5 years ???
why have sole agents surely that would be going back to being dictated to.
Because the governments idealogy of quality tourism isn't "everyman for himself" with owners finding their own bookings and deciding what people want or don't want.
Regardless of the many good examples of private rented accommodation in Tenerife (and there are many), this is not how they want tourism to be advertised.
so why have sole agents? Well one of the things I personally do is do my damndest to fill all of the apartments for the owners and pay a fair amount back to them, currently my owners are picking up around 600 to 700 euros per month off us and are very happy. I can maximise the occupancy in all the apartments because I have a view of the bookings in all apartments - this means that there are few "annoying gaps" that private renters will always get:
EG : a booking from a friday to a friday one week and then a Tuesday following it for a week then return to friday means you've lost a week. We would move the Tuesday booking to a differnet apartment and fill the Friday to Friday fortnight.
That's just one example of how we benefit owners.
We're in the process of creating a booking engine so clients can book online and see live availability so instant booking is possible on our website (better for customer than checking availability calenders that are out of date, better than emailing back and forth and phoning up checking dates.)
Added after 2 minutes:
We're also in the process of installing safes in all owners apartments FREE OF CHARGE to the owner.
Having a sole agent is a whole lot more professional.
Added after 31 minutes:
I do hope however that they apply his to all the "markets" :wink:
perhaps starting with the taxi "market"
Yes hopefully they'll be cracking down on the many illegal & unauthorised Taxi drivers
I couldn't agree more.
Peterrayner
12-02-2012, 13:45
Yes hopefully they'll be cracking down on the many illegal & unauthorised Taxi drivers
I couldn't agree more.
You mean of course the ones who "borrow" their mates taxi and drive at about twice the legal speed limit to get back for the next fare. Venga vamanos
My neighbour takes me to the airport.
I mean everyone of them who are illegal and unauthorised.
Peterrayner
12-02-2012, 14:06
Could someone give me the references of the Spanish/Canarian law(s) specifying the minimum LONG-TERM rental period, in months? Thank you. XVD
Doreen has stated the reference.
I am adviced that for a legal urban letting with a Contrato de Arrendamiento Temporada (short term lease) there is no stipulated minimum but in practical terms 3 months is the usual length with a requirement for a months notice of termination by the landlord.
If this contract is renewed or runs beyond 12 months it then becomes a Contrato de Arrendamiento de Vivienda (long term lease) and the tenant can claim a protected teancy after the end of the contract of 1 years extension for the following 4 years providing it is the tenants sole residence. The landlord can issue a 1 month notice to terminate after 11 months to reclaim the property providing its for his/her sole use.
Complicated but then arent all laws in this area. :)
welshman
12-02-2012, 15:55
[
so why have sole agents? Well one of the things I personally do is do my damndest to fill all of the apartments for the owners and pay a fair amount back to them, currently my owners are picking up around 600 to 700 euros per month off us and are very happy. I can maximise the occupancy in all the apartments because I have a view of the bookings in all apartments - this means that there are few "annoying gaps" that private renters will always get:
So you can make sure your own apartments are booked first and pass the scraps on to other owner. fantastic business for you its WIN WIN. That un fair compition in anyones book. I would like to see what your comments would be if another agent took over your complex and all owner signed with them making you a minority agent would you still think its fair leaving all your apartments in someone else hands:D:D:D:D
Fisherman
12-02-2012, 16:16
Interestingly- I see the point of not putting the holiday letting rents up--but with the taxation and the increased utility, and cleaning costs, it soon will be a loss making persuit,--and this will not be very attractive to landlords at all. So maybe they will choose to sell the property or go with long lets--causing further losses to the local economy !
There does not seem much to support the wisdom of this policy that I can see.
[
so why have sole agents? Well one of the things I personally do is do my damndest to fill all of the apartments for the owners and pay a fair amount back to them, currently my owners are picking up around 600 to 700 euros per month off us and are very happy. I can maximise the occupancy in all the apartments because I have a view of the bookings in all apartments - this means that there are few "annoying gaps" that private renters will always get:
So you can make sure your own apartments are booked first and pass the scraps on to other owner. fantastic business for you its WIN WIN. That un fair compition in anyones book. I would like to see what your comments would be if another agent took over your complex and all owner signed with them making you a minority agent would you still think its fair leaving all your apartments in someone else hands:D:D:D:D
A little unfair ... particularly as Loaded allows owners bring in their own bookings which some other sole agents do not.
And I know the challenge he faces to get some owners to upgrade ... I bought one apartment there which he had told the owners he could not rent out for them until they bought new sofas - it was for sale at 161.000 about 2 years ago when I first saw it. They then painted the apartment, put in a new floor doing it themselves (very badly) but didn't change the sofas :lol: I bought it 6 months ago for 125.000 and ripped out the floor, completely refurbishing it in a modern style ... now Loaded is happy to rent it out for me and I expect a very high occupancy level :)
welshman
12-02-2012, 20:44
A little unfair ... particularly as Loaded allows owners bring in their own bookings which some other sole agents do not.
And I know the challenge he faces to get some owners to upgrade ... I bought one apartment there which he had told the owners he could not rent out for them until they bought new sofas - it was for sale at 161.000 about 2 years ago when I first saw it. They then painted the apartment, put in a new floor doing it themselves (very badly) but didn't change the sofas :lol: I bought it 6 months ago for 125.000 and ripped out the floor, completely refurbishing it in a modern style ... now Loaded is happy to rent it out for me and I expect a very high occupancy level :)
Excellent business model he screw them up so they can,t pay mortgage forcing them to sell cheap to himself or you. What about the poor sod that may have lost a big chunk of his life savings nice people.
The old saying buyer beware come to mind :redcard::redcard::redcard:
Excellent business model he screw them up so they can,t pay mortgage forcing them to sell cheap to himself or you. What about the poor sod that may have lost a big chunk of his life savings nice people.
The old saying buyer beware come to mind :redcard::redcard::redcard:
Please be careful who you show a red card to !! You know nothing of the couple who sold (and I believe they had no mortgage), but I do indeed know what the state of the apartment was like - had they spent the same money on two new sofas instead of a botched floor job, they would have had rentals.
Please be careful who you show a red card to !! You know nothing of the couple who sold (and I believe they had no mortgage), but I do indeed know what the state of the apartment was like - had they spent the same money on two new sofas instead of a botched floor job, they would have had rentals.
loaded appears to be the exception that proves the rule,as regards sole letting being a reasonable and sensible way for private owners to get rent for their apartments. His payments appear exellent, if he is fair with allocating bookings then its a pity other complex's have not got such a decent sole agent.
However the reality is that like some sort of fuedal lord a sole agent can not normally provide a cosy relationship with his apartment owning renters. What sole agency represents is the owners being exploited by the agent who runs their properties like his own hotel. They get whatever rent he may give them and allocation of bookings as he sees fit. At the end of the day the sole agent is an entirely unnecesry additional add on to the overhead costs of renting the apartment. In this day of internet ads and bookings when it is quite possible for a single apartment owner to rent out on their own the role of the sole agent is an expensive add on to the clients holiday cost.
People have to remember that the sole agency came in in 1995 with the single aim of protecting the hotels from what they saw as competition from self catering apartments. The original requirement was for more than 50 plus 1 on a complex, the whole plan being to burden aprtments with hotel overheads, eg,24 hour receptions , and to try to curtail self catering apartment growth. This silly protectionist standpoint is why the canaries has this strange system , nothing to do with what they see as sensible tourist ofering.
The canary government now needs to regulate private renting and in my opinion would be justified in charging renters an annual permit, but the whole sole letting idea needs to be moved on from and forgotton about.
Any links to prove the hotels involvement?
Permit for all dwellings or just your touristic ones?
welshman
12-02-2012, 23:53
Please be careful who you show a red card to !! You know nothing of the couple who sold (and I believe they had no mortgage), but I do indeed know what the state of the apartment was like - had they spent the same money on two new sofas instead of a botched floor job, they would have had rentals.
Not interested who they were or if they had mortgage but on your statement they purchased for 161,000 and you purchased it for 125,000 18months later I feel they got shafted for what ever reason
Added after 5 minutes:
loaded appears to be the exception that proves the rule,as regards sole letting being a reasonable and sensible way for private owners to get rent for their apartments. His payments appear exellent, if he is fair with allocating bookings then its a pity other complex's have not got such a decent sole agent.
However the reality is that like some sort of fuedal lord a sole agent can not normally provide a cosy relationship with his apartment owning renters. What sole agency represents is the owners being exploited by the agent who runs their properties like his own hotel. They get whatever rent he may give them and allocation of bookings as he sees fit. At the end of the day the sole agent is an entirely unnecesry additional add on to the overhead costs of renting the apartment. In this day of internet ads and bookings when it is quite possible for a single apartment owner to rent out on their own the role of the sole agent is an expensive add on to the clients holiday cost.
People have to remember that the sole agency came in in 1995 with the single aim of protecting the hotels from what they saw as competition from self catering apartments. The original requirement was for more than 50 plus 1 on a complex, the whole plan being to burden aprtments with hotel overheads, eg,24 hour receptions , and to try to curtail self catering apartment growth. This silly protectionist standpoint is why the canaries has this strange system , nothing to do with what they see as sensible tourist ofering.
The canary government now needs to regulate private renting and in my opinion would be justified in charging renters an annual permit, but the whole sole letting idea needs to be moved on from and forgotton about.
Your wasting your time the government will never change and these people will continue to get rich at others expence. These are brits shafting their own
Not interested who they were or if they had mortgage but on your statement they purchased for 161,000 and you purchased it for 125,000 18months later I feel they got shafted for what ever reason
...
Your wasting your time the government will never change and these people will continue to get rich at others expence. These are brits shafting their own
Hello ... read my post carefully before you criticise .. the same people were offering it for sale (with grotty sofas) 2 years ago at 161k, I believe they were long term owners, so even with my price they did not lose.
[QUOTE=Red Devil;143331]AJP you are 100% right, clarity has been needed for all these years BUT, if your dream is to spend longer periods in Tenerife then don't let this lettings problem stop you in any way.
Hi Red Devil,I,m sorry,I didn,t mean to confuse you but I was using the senario of someone who was just about to retire buying property in tenerife,I still have many years to go before I could contemplate buying anything there,however is it me or after reading some of these posts lately,are the 1995 Letting laws starting to disintergrate before our eyes.Again I recommend Loaded,s property blog,so you can get an idea of the law(its taken me a while but after months of snide remarks and sarcastic reposts, "by me "I,ve found that its best to find out properly whats going on)
http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/the-1995-letting-law-in-tenerife-and-the-canaries.asp
In my last post,I mentioned the fact that the "friends and family" rule,or none rule as the case maybe,was a major disinsentive to those people that want to buy on residential complexes,and who DONT want to let, for commercial gain.The ambigiuty that I spoke of continues,Because you can,t use the "friends and family" loophole as a stick to beat those that say its a way around the law for LETTING,whilst saying that those who are BUYING, and QUOTE LOADED"I believe
people who genuinely use their apartments for friends and family will not have to worry END QUOTE. You either can or you can,t.As many of you have confidently stated in capital letters ITS THE LAW Could any reputable property agent look someone in the eye and confidently say to someone buying a holiday home for themselves and their family,that the 1995 letting laws will not affect them.
Who knows,it would be ironic that the thing that brings down the law isn,t the fact of illegal lettings, but the unseen effect on the buying market,because once someone gets the OK to let to their family,floodgates will open.
As for building new properties in El Mojon, any truth in the rumour that they were going to put a football pitch in there but they kept moving the goalposts:wow:
seanocelt
13-02-2012, 02:54
[QUOTE=welshman;144309]Not interested who they were or if they had mortgage but on your statement they purchased for 161,000 and you purchased it for 125,000 18months later I feel they got shafted for what ever reason
Added after 5 minutes:
Eh? Shafted? Anyone paying 160k plus for a one bed deserves to be. They were trying to SELL at 161k at a presumable profit.
Would you say anyone who gets less now for a property than a few years ago is shafted? Sorry, cant fathom that at all, people are losing on properties all over the world right now, nobody getting shafted that didnt buy/sell at the wrong time. As for Brits "shafting" each other, whats new?
In my last post,I mentioned the fact that the "friends and family" rule,or none rule as the case maybe,was a major disinsentive to those people that want to buy on residential complexes,and who DONT want to let, for commercial gain.The ambigiuty that I spoke of continues,Because you can,t use the "friends and family" loophole as a stick to beat those that say its a way around the law for LETTING,whilst saying that those who are BUYING, and QUOTE LOADED"I believe
people who genuinely use their apartments for friends and family will not have to worry END QUOTE. You either can or you can,t.As many of you have confidently stated in capital letters ITS THE LAW Could any reputable property agent look someone in the eye and confidently say to someone buying a holiday home for themselves and their family,that the 1995 letting laws will not affect them.
Who knows,it would be ironic that the thing that brings down the law isn,t the fact of illegal lettings, but the unseen effect on the buying market,because once someone gets the OK to let to their family,floodgates will open.
As long as Family & Friends are actually such and do not arrive as a result of internet advertising, then there should be no problem ... if they are arriving week after week, then unhappy neighbours can resort to a Denuncia alleging touristic use in a Residential complex (Janet A has posted elsewhere that she is getting several requests for details of how to contact the Inspectors from Residential residents)
The buying market has fallen significiantly anyway .... the fact that you can pick up cheap properties on well run Touristic Complexes just proves the point.
Peterrayner
13-02-2012, 08:37
As long as Family & Friends are actually such and do not arrive as a result of internet advertising, then there should be no problem ... if they are arriving week after week, then unhappy neighbours can resort to a Denuncia alleging touristic use in a Residential complex (Janet A has posted elsewhere that she is getting several requests for details of how to contact the Inspectors from Residential residents)
The buying market has fallen significiantly anyway .... the fact that you can pick up cheap properties on well run Touristic Complexes just proves the point.
Thanks for that Doreen. Can I refer a couple of friends of mine to that post next time they query my pals using the apartment :week:
The advice I have received is that Family and Friends Use is accepted providing it is strictly occassional use ie not 30 -40 weeks a year. and strictly no advertising involved as Doreen has stated also.
I also now advice our community president by email in advance that my friends or family will be using the apartment and that they have written permission from me as such in Spanish and English.
Property pricies and recessions have always been cyclical in approx a 7 year cycle. We factored this in to our investments. :)
Any links to prove the hotels involvement?
Permit for all dwellings or just your touristic ones?
I should think to start with touristic. I can not see the point in sole agency as opposed to multple renters so long as the place is full of tourists. As regards residential renters, well in resorts in my opinion the canary economy desperatley needs these visitors. This renting has evolved in the face of the tourist moratorium, places like dinasta and el mirador wouyld have originally been touristic had it not been for the moratorium. If the canary government has any thought whatsoever for the unemployed on the islands , especially the young generation, then within resorts it must legalise for tourist renting many of the residential complex's as well.
junglejim
13-02-2012, 11:25
Thanks for that Doreen. Can I refer a couple of friends of mine to that post next time they query my pals using the apartment :week:
The advice I have received is that Family and Friends Use is accepted providing it is strictly occassional use ie not 30 -40 weeks a year. and strictly no advertising involved as Doreen has stated also.
I also now advice our community president by email in advance that my friends or family will be using the apartment and that they have written permission from me as such in Spanish and English.
Property pricies and recessions have always been cyclical in approx a 7 year cycle. We factored this in to our investments. :)
Thanks Peter & Doreen for your comments - can either of you clarify a some of points as our President seems to be spinning a story ?
Does use by genuine family or friends require the owner to be present during their use? i.e. can my daughter use my apartment when I am back in uk?
In the reference to what is a long term let , he is claiming that it is 5 years - not 3/6 months with contract - any clarification
Our complex was built and operated as Touristic until recently - we now have to re-apply for our licence - firstly getting AGM to agree- do we need 50%+1 majority or 100% ( i.e. have we defaulted to Residential status)
If we default permanently to Residential status what are the downsides legally .
I do not let my apartment,I only allow my family and a couple of friends to use it for about 4/5 weeks of year .
Thanks in advance for any info !
wow, too much to answer in the last few pages point by point but I will come back at Welshman:
The apartment Doreen bought for 125k was as she says for sale for 161k...... it was fo sale during the worst of "la crisis".... 2008, 2009. and after redoing the floors it looked like this: 2372
As you can see it's not great and the sofas (which were at least 20 years old) had just been given a throw to cover them up a little.
I had repeatedly told them I could get bookings for them but they needed to AT LEAST buy a new sofa and then carry out further improvements when they had the money. They were fairly hostile to this advice.
With this I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't . On the one hand I coul have just rented it as it was with the old sofa and old furniture etc etc and then some on here would say "you sole agents just rent out any old rubbish, you don't care about standards" and if i tell them to improve standard then I'm some sort of dictatorial tyrant who's trying to bankrupt them.........
A new sofa set would have cost them around 700 euros - I'd have even paid for the sofa for them just so it was more rentable as we were turning down bookings at some parts of that period.
Now, at around the same that they put their apartment up for sale there were quite a few others for sale also, we picked one up for 100,000€ and another for a few thousand more, others sold for 110 and 120k so Doreen paying 125 was arguably "over the odds" considering the amount of work she ended up doing to the apartment. Either way Doreen was happy and they agreed to sell it at 125 so they must have been happy too as no one forced them to accept and they got more than most other people around that time.
The apartment is now AMAZING and I certainly won't have any problem renting it out lots and lots like jelly tots for Doreen.
phew...................
Now onto another point by Welshman that I somehow just give the owenrs the scraps after filling our own apartments............ Yes guilty. If by "scraps" you mean over 40 weeks last year to each owner and aiming for 45 this year.
I haven't got any owners complaining about those returns.
bonitatime
13-02-2012, 12:01
the workers and families who for some strange reason must have a dog that barks all day or kids who scream instead of talking. Get rid of one and the next is worse.
Not sure what complex you live on but we seldom have problems with renting tennants and if we do we have a strong community which deals with them.
golf birdie
13-02-2012, 12:22
when we stay in Florida the villa we book has a telephone system to a 24 hour help line. We go to a office on arrival (about 2 miles away), pick up the keys and get told how to get to the villa (shown if required). If you do not have a car you are taken there. Any problems or help required at all I pick up the phone and its sorted. Just can't see the problem with that system plus it gives good companies more scope for attracting clients whislt cutting down on costs.
when we stay in Florida the villa we book has a telephone system to a 24 hour help line. We go to a office on arrival (about 2 miles away), pick up the keys and get told how to get to the villa (shown if required). If you do not have a car you are taken there. Any problems or help required at all I pick up the phone and its sorted. Just can't see the problem with that system plus it gives good companies more scope for attracting clients whislt cutting down on costs.
OK, on the surface that sounds like a good system, but....
The point is that it is a system - here at the moment if you rent from a private letter on a residential complex you are often on your own - keys left at local bars, or with the (illegal) geezer that collects you from the airport in his uninsured 30 year old Seat.
You can't blame the Government for wanting to bring some security to the letting market here through regulation, and there need to be central points of contact established for key-holding and other security issues which is the thrust of the sole agent principle. Remember too, that the Americans speak English (well kind of) and it is easier to ask for directions from people and communicate in your native language.
In any event, all private letters will still be paying for the key holding service, be it an on-site reception or a contracted service.
golf birdie
13-02-2012, 13:00
OK, on the surface that sounds like a good system, but....
The point is that it is a system - here at the moment if you rent from a private letter on a residential complex you are often on your own - keys left at local bars, or with the (illegal) geezer that collects you from the airport in his uninsured 30 year old Seat.
You can't blame the Government for wanting to bring some security to the letting market here through regulation, and there need to be central points of contact established for key-holding and other security issues which is the thrust of the sole agent principle. Remember too, that the Americans speak English (well kind of) and it is easier to ask for directions from people and communicate in your native language.
In any event, all private letters will still be paying for the key holding service, be it an on-site reception or a contracted service.
I am saying rather than having the sole agency where the bad ones can give the good ones a bad name this system would give the good companies more business. If your agent was giving you a bad deal move to a good one. It would benifit the owners and the clients as they would need to give better service to keep their business.
I am saying rather than having the sole agency where the bad ones can give the good ones a bad name this system would give the good companies more business. If your agent was giving you a bad deal move to a good one. It would benifit the owners and the clients as they would need to give better service to keep their business.
Fair point, but you are still advocating the use of an agent of some kind, conforming to some form of standard, and who are responsible for the maintaining of and provision of certain requirements set in law in order to be able to let out in the first instance.
Whether a "sole agent" system, or a "register with an agent of your choice on a competitive basis" system, it is a system designed to avoid problems and complaints about accomodation and facilities available to the tourist market and to prevent bad press for the industry generally. Considering it is the largest industry here, you can't help but understand why the Government believes some form of system is necessary, and why the Government is continuing to work toward all letting being incorporated under some form of regulation system.
True the present system has issues, but it is established under law and has been for many years, the current "issues" with the present system are coming about because of developments relating to the growth of internet advertising, perhaps unforseen 16 years ago when the present law was drawn up.
Development of the current law and progressive evolution of it may be required and may come about in the future, but again, it is their country, their laws and their right to enforce the law as they see fit, with or without regard to those it doesn't actually suit or for that matter other countries who do things differently.
As for any changes to letting laws in residentially classed complexes, I cannot see any reason whatsoever why the law will or should be changed to allow for touristic letting in areas set aside specifically for people to live in, nor I suspect would the Canarian or European courts given Human Rights Acts and so on.
As for any changes to letting laws in residentially classed complexes, I cannot see any reason whatsoever why the law will or should be changed to allow for touristic letting in areas set aside specifically for people to live in, nor I suspect would the Canarian or European courts given Human Rights Acts and so on.
Seeing as nobody is lobbying for this, I would agree that there is no chance this will be changed to allow the illegal practice of letting to short term holiday makers on residential complexes.
There are a few posters on this forum who are misguided in believing that the status of letting to short term holidaymakers could possibly be changed. I don't think they will ever realize that it is not up for discussion.
Thanks Peter & Doreen for your comments - can either of you clarify a some of points as our President seems to be spinning a story ?
Does use by genuine family or friends require the owner to be present during their use? i.e. can my daughter use my apartment when I am back in uk?
In the reference to what is a long term let , he is claiming that it is 5 years - not 3/6 months with contract - any clarification
Our complex was built and operated as Touristic until recently - we now have to re-apply for our licence - firstly getting AGM to agree- do we need 50%+1 majority or 100% ( i.e. have we defaulted to Residential status)
If we default permanently to Residential status what are the downsides legally .
I do not let my apartment,I only allow my family and a couple of friends to use it for about 4/5 weeks of year .
Thanks in advance for any info !
Of course your daughter can use the apartment without you being there - the President has no powers to determine how you use your apartment as long as you are not advertising it for Touristic purposes... and he is completely wrong about 3/6 months not being acceptable for a long let ... in a few posts back I gave the link to the 1994 law governing such rentals and it does not state a minimum period.
EDIT - regarding your licence ... was the complex built pre 1995 ? If yes, I am guessing 50% plus one would still only be needed (but you would need to take formal advice on that)
Peterrayner
13-02-2012, 15:48
Thanks Peter & Doreen for your comments - can either of you clarify a some of points as our President seems to be spinning a story ?
Does use by genuine family or friends require the owner to be present during their use? i.e. can my daughter use my apartment when I am back in uk?
In the reference to what is a long term let , he is claiming that it is 5 years - not 3/6 months with contract - any clarification
Our complex was built and operated as Touristic until recently - we now have to re-apply for our licence - firstly getting AGM to agree- do we need 50%+1 majority or 100% ( i.e. have we defaulted to Residential status)
If we default permanently to Residential status what are the downsides legally .
I do not let my apartment,I only allow my family and a couple of friends to use it for about 4/5 weeks of year .
Thanks in advance for any info !
The concensus of opinions I can gather is that allowing your immediate family to use the apartment occassionaly is perfectly legal as is genuine friends use.
The provisios seem to be that they cant pay a weekly commercial rent for the use nor can you advertise the apartment for short term lets.
Family and Friends use of 4/5 weeks would IMO fall well within this allowance and that seems to be regardless of the designation of the complex .. Residential or Toursitic.
On the other issue the president is only partly correct.
You can let any apartment on a legal CONTRATO DE ARRENDAMIENTO DE TEMPORADA.
Which is a contract for a lease for a fixed term. The fixed term isnt actually stated in the law but is generally accepted as being for at least 3 months and upto a maximum of 6 months.
Their is an important clause that states the landlord must give a one month notice of termination of the contract BEFORE it expires.
Failure to do this or to extend the lease for a full years term would mean the tenant could apply for the lease to become a full lease or a CONTRATO DE ARRENDAMIENTO DE VIVIENDA.
WHICH IS A LONG TERM PROTECTED LEASE WHICH CAN BE RENEWED EVERY YEAR FOR 5 YEARS.
This is providing the tenant has no other residence and so would therefore be homeless if evicted and especially if they have children.
The landord can however reclaim the apartment before the 1 year lapses if he/she can prove they need the property returned for their own personal use ie not for a further lease.
Other than that point I have little knowledge of touristic sites so maybe Doreen could answer the other points.
here's what I don't understand is that everyone seems to want this "portugal system" where all the private owners have to sign up to a company locally.......
Ok I understand that.
And apparantly no one is saying Residential complexes should be allowed to join in.
So we're talking about owners on tourist complexes signing up to any local management agency and registering via that local company?
Welcome to 1989!
This is all getting a little scary ...
There seems to be general agreement that short letting on residential complexes is not the issue at stake.
Nobody is asking for it because it is accepted that residential complexes are where people live. Apartments can be loaned to genuine friends or family within the current law, or long-term let (approx 3 months or more) where the tenants would be accountable to the communidad in terms of their behaviour and so on. It is also accepted, it seems, that this is the current law, that nobody wants or realistically expects this to ever change and anyone breaking the law does so at their own 18k risk .....
Result !!
As for touristic letting on touristic complexes there are arguments for change - a move away from sole agents to a free for all with no overall control of standards.
Can't see much in the way of change on the way from a Government hell bent on ensuring overal standards are both controlled and improved so as to maintain the reputation of the islands tourism offer, and who can blame them.
If you can't (legally) let on a complex where the touristic licence has become dormant, then that is the fault of the owners not the Government and this doesnt seem likely to change.
Kinda sums it up really ....
What's next??!!
here's what I don't understand is that everyone seems to want this "portugal system" where all the private owners have to sign up to a company locally.......
Ok I understand that.
And apparantly no one is saying Residential complexes should be allowed to join in.
So we're talking about owners on tourist complexes signing up to any local management agency and registering via that local company?
Welcome to 1989!
not sure that the portugal system requires a local company to be involved. As I understand the system all that is needed is registration of each apartemnt individually and payment of annual fees.
Senor Escobedo may be able to clarify,I think welshman first posted on here about a portugese system.
... but you have mentioned and advocated it in almost every post you have made ??
... but you have mentioned and advocated it in almost every post you have made ??
yes I do support what I thought I read about it in welshmand post. I thought it meant each owner registering and being free to rent out under their own steam if they wanted to.
Loaded has mentioned local companies today , so maybe I have missed something. I am not in favour of involving companies, whats the point? the natural evolution of small private renters with internet ads seems to make third parties/middlemen/agents not necesary, unless peolple prefer hands off renting, then fine , let them work with any agent that they want to.
The main thing is getting tourists in the resorts and not causing mayhem attacking 30 hotels worth of accomodation that has contributed to the canary economy for many years.
so no companies involved at all? EVeryone rents out their own apartment and the customer cleans it themselves, finds their own locksmith etc? Way to raise the bar.............
so no companies involved at all? EVeryone rents out their own apartment and the customer cleans it themselves, finds their own locksmith etc? Way to raise the bar.............
look, we on our place have been doing it fine for years. That said I think you have done a good job with your sole agenting. Just we have not needed it to do the job.
yes I do support what I thought I read about it in welshmand post. I thought it meant each owner registering and being free to rent out under their own steam if they wanted to.
Loaded has mentioned local companies today , so maybe I have missed something. I am not in favour of involving companies, whats the point? the natural evolution of small private renters with internet ads seems to make third parties/middlemen/agents not necesary, unless peolple prefer hands off renting, then fine , let them work with any agent that they want to.
The main thing is getting tourists in the resorts and not causing mayhem attacking 30 hotels worth of accomodation that has contributed to the canary economy for many years.
But you know, perhaps more than most, that the uncontrolled free-for-all of the past few years is exactly why the law is currently being enforced. You may not personally agree with the requirements it lays down, but lays them down it does and if you want to earn a living from the tourist industry in the Canaries then you either need to comply or go elsewhere where the rules are different.
Whether you personally like it or not, tourists expect certain standards and the Government of the land has the right to ensure these standards are maintained. If this is determined to be that a complex must appoint an agent whose responsibilities to you are to get you a decent return for your investment and whose responsibilities to the tourist industry of the country (i.e. Government) are to arrange security, reception services, lifeguards and so on in order that visitors to their country are treated correctly, then again, so be it.
It is not closed-shop either - you and your fellow owners have the right to appoint whichever agent you wish - and you have the freedom to negotiate your own deals with whom ever you wish - the only stipulation being that a licenced agent is appointed and all rentals go via them.
Any system whereby anyone can register with anyone regardless of the complex simply will not, and presumably going by Loaded's earlier post, did not work. Not only does the standard of the accomodation have to be inspected regularly, the standards of the complex infra-structure needs to be looked at as well, and repairs have to be agreed and implimented when needed. Not easy when, for example, on a complex of 100 appartments there are 100 different agents, in fact impossible!
It does seem the present system works, certainly to the Govenment, and it is they who decide, not a few random owners who have been lining their pockets for years nd have now come a cropper!
It was your choice to buy here, your choice to break the law here by letting privately and the chances of the law of the land being changed just because you think them comparable to Franco days are, it seems, non-existant to very non-existant
look, we on our place have been doing it fine for years. That said I think you have done a good job with your sole agenting. Just we have not needed it to do the job.
Wow I thought you were joking about them doing it all themselves!
I thought your argument was that everyone should register and be with "A" company , a local one who were on call etc. That was at least credible!
So what you're actually proposing is that you get to register your apartment (ok so far ) and then find your own bookings (still ok ) and the clients do their own cleaning, wash their own sheets and do their own maintenance and fix their own problems????????????????????????
Oh dear.
Sundowner
13-02-2012, 18:51
Having just read this article on renting regulations in Portugal........I would say be careful of what you wish for.......
http://www.gekkoportugal.com/short-term-property-rental-licence-property-in-portugal.htm
Having just read this article on renting regulations in Portugal........I would say be careful of what you wish for.......
http://www.gekkoportugal.com/short-term-property-rental-licence-property-in-portugal.htm
Yes, I've been doing a bit of research too ... some firms charging up to 1.000 to get the licence for the owner, architects, electricians to be employed ... huge drive to inspect properties to impose fines ...
welshman
13-02-2012, 20:50
not sure that the portugal system requires a local company to be involved. As I understand the system all that is needed is registration of each apartemnt individually and payment of annual fees.
Senor Escobedo may be able to clarify,I think welshman first posted on here about a portugese system.
I will inform you must apply for Liecence before you can legally let approx cost varies you can apply direct to local council or instruct Licence application Agent to apply on your behalf ( Many jobs have been created with many of these Licence agents.) On receipt of your application your apartment is inspected for standard of accomidation
Manditory
1. Must have Smoke detectors in apartment
2. Fire Blanket
3. Fire extinguisher
4. First Aid Kit
5. Complain Book
6. Emergancy No,s list
If acceptable the apartment is granted a licence and inspected regularly and must declare any rental income for tax purposes.
Renewed every three years
Its not perfect some still do not register. We use reg managment company to manage our apartments and advertise on all normal sites been doing it since 2003. Would love to buy in Tenerife but not at present. I see both sides of the argument but find its a bit restrictive for me at present. May look to purchase on loaded complex Doreen is happy and he gives a reasonable return for your invest ment who knows :whistle::thanx::thanx::thanx:
Added after 15 minutes:
Having just read this article on renting regulations in Portugal........I would say be careful of what you wish for.......
http://www.gekkoportugal.com/short-term-property-rental-licence-property-in-portugal.htm
Is this not what you supply or would expect if you were renting. There is nothing thats on the list that many of the private illegal lettings in Tenerife are presently supplying just need to be formilated. Many are supplying 5* accomidation with washing maches etc stayed in Dinastisa lovely apartments but illegal. Stayed in Paradise Park in studio made me ill depressing dark and basic. People will vote with their feet and won,t go back.
Having just read this article on renting regulations in Portugal........I would say be careful of what you wish for.......
http://www.gekkoportugal.com/short-term-property-rental-licence-property-in-portugal.htm
just read the article from your link. I agree with every aspect of the portugese regulation requirements, just seems sensible health and safety stuff and minimum reasonable facility standards.
I would not have a problem with any aspect of that if the canary government decided to reform the current letting laws along those lines.
Do the portugese charge an annual fee to the apartment owners? if so what is the current fee.
just read the article from your link. I agree with every aspect of the portugese regulation requirements, just seems sensible health and safety stuff and minimum reasonable facility standards.
I would not have a problem with any aspect of that if the canary government decided to reform the current letting laws along those lines.
Do the portugese charge an annual fee to the apartment owners? if so what is the current fee.
Interesting quote from a Portuguese Ex Pat Forum
By the time we've paid nearly �1,000 just for a license, paid for public liability insurance, paid our housekeeper, replaced all the bedding, towell's, bathroom stuff etc., annually it's hardly worth it. I for one won't be renting out next year. If other folks follow suit ,there will be even less tourists visiting. Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg!
Wow I thought you were joking about them doing it all themselves!
I thought your argument was that everyone should register and be with "A" company , a local one who were on call etc. That was at least credible!
So what you're actually proposing is that you get to register your apartment (ok so far ) and then find your own bookings (still ok ) and the clients do their own cleaning, wash their own sheets and do their own maintenance and fix their own problems????????????????????????
Oh dear.
wot you on about ???? since when have I ever advocated clients doing all their own cleaning and maintenance? I think most private renters engage cleaning companies to do their cleaning and linen changes. I thimk also that most private renters get maintenance work done as and when it is required.
It may be hard for you to understand but all this can be done without the involment of a sole letting agent.
Added after 10 minutes:
Interesting quote from a Portuguese Ex Pat Forum
By the time we've paid nearly �1,000 just for a license, paid for public liability insurance, paid our housekeeper, replaced all the bedding, towell's, bathroom stuff etc., annually it's hardly worth it. I for one won't be renting out next year. If other folks follow suit ,there will be even less tourists visiting. Talk about killing the goose that laid the golden egg!
ha ha, well that person is entitled to their opinion. It is a legitimate argument also here in the canaries. If the cost of regulation even on the portugese model means that renters pack up anyway, well then the canary government would indeed have killed the goose that laid the golden egg. The 30 hotels worth of apartments do currently bring millions of euros worth of spending to the canaries. The canary economy desperatley needs this tourist spend. So when the canary government decided to attack or reform the apartments it has to consider the impact in respect of possible loss of the income.
In my opinion the private renters could pay a reasonable annual permit charge and cope with the added insurance bills with a modest price increase. In any event we are heading for a stronger pound sterling agaainst a weaker euro/pesata so that will help to offset the added costs the portugese model would bring us.
I think we would manage to cope with the increased overheads but it is an issue the canary government has to consider as obviously they should not seek to damage their economy by damaging this important sector of their tourist offering.
Bottom line though Nelson is that a grand a year license fee, much the same a year for Insurance, then twice weekly linen changes, once yearly replacement of all towels, bedding matresses and so on, plus electrical inspections and so on all adds up to a bucket load more than you have been shelling out and pocketing for a good few years. Reality hitting home then.
Also, you light think the Canarian economy needs the money and the workers need the jobs - true perhaps, but clearly the Government have other plans. Matbe you should apply for citizenship then stand for Government and become Chancellor of the Canarian Exchequer - until thst time, stop illegally letting, pay your fine and desist !!
Love you really !
The licence seems to be for 3 years - not sure if you need the full expense of around 1.000 to renew it :)
welshman
13-02-2012, 22:27
The licence seems to be for 3 years - not sure if you need the full expense of around 1.000 to renew it :)
I paid 600 euros to agent for them to arrange everything lasts for three years
no problem cheaper if you want to do it yourself
Bottom line though Nelson is that a grand a year license fee, much the same a year for Insurance, then twice weekly linen changes, once yearly replacement of all towels, bedding matresses and so on, plus electrical inspections and so on all adds up to a bucket load more than you have been shelling out and pocketing for a good few years. Reality hitting home then.
Also, you light think the Canarian economy needs the money and the workers need the jobs - true perhaps, but clearly the Government have other plans. Matbe you should apply for citizenship then stand for Government and become Chancellor of the Canarian Exchequer - until thst time, stop illegally letting, pay your fine and desist !!
Love you really !
I have never been in this game for the money, as I have said many times, I rent to cover my outgoings, I hope. As long as I can continue to do that albeit with a few more outgoings than before, I will be a happy man. Just so long as I can get 4 weeks a year down their on that paradise island , and enjoy a few doradas on my humble balcony, well I ask for no more. If I can continue to contribute to the canary tourist offering legally and send as many clients to the island , well that to me is helpfull to the canary economy and what the canary unemployed need.
I have never been in this game for the money, as I have said many times, I rent to cover my outgoings, I hope. As long as I can continue to do that albeit with a few more outgoings than before, I will be a happy man. Just so long as I can get 4 weeks a year down their on that paradise island , and enjoy a few doradas on my humble balcony, well I ask for no more. If I can continue to contribute to the canary tourist offering legally and send as many clients to the island , well that to me is helpfull to the canary economy and what the canary unemployed need.
That's good of you nelson ... now, will you give us a committment only to use legally registered autonomos or companies to manage, clean, repair ... that will help the unemployment situation & the Canarian economy in general :)
I have an owner who has a mortgage of 600 euros per month - so they're not commercially letting either even though I fill it almost every week ..... It's just to Cover their costs you see
jogger321
14-02-2012, 00:55
I have an owner who has a mortgage of 600 euros per month - so they're not commercially letting either even though I fill it almost every week ..... It's just to Cover their costs you see
What would be the monthly payments on a mortgage on a place on Paloma purchased for arguments sake at circa 140,000 ..would 40 weeks rentals cover the mortgage or would you need a high % of capital deposit to make it work?
What would be the monthly payments on a mortgage on a place on Paloma purchased for arguments sake at circa 140,000 ..would 40 weeks rentals cover the mortgage or would you need a high % of capital deposit to make it work?
If you were to get a 70% mortgage, 30% deposit would mean 42k cash reqd, plus costs of approx 11% thats another 15k required without allowing for new fixtures and fittings that may be needed. So you have to come up with at least 57K in cash and then hope that rentals will pay the remaining mortgage ( probably about 600/700 per month )plus 100 community fees and all the other costs for the next 20 years or so.
Of course some posters on here will insist you´ll be "raking it in"
I would imagine after those 20 years or so of just covering costs. Your prime profit would be No mortgage on that €140,000 property.
Is that what you class as not raking it in or making any profit ?
it is really bewildering on this thread sometimes, what with going around in circles and arguing about the same thing all over again. Last night we read postings about the portugese system, ex pats over there grumbling about the extra costs of legal compliance. Seems the licence is 1000 euro for 3 years, so not far off my suggested 400 euro for a year here in the canaries. Short of Senor Escobedos suggestion of 1200 euro per year here, Whose side is he on ?
I stated that in my opinion I would be happy to pay these extra costs to be legal, mentioned that as long as I cover costs then thats me happy, and then off go other posters accusing private renters of raking it in.
At the end of the day its the same situation for a private owner in paloma beach or any other complex. They can probabley just about cover costs including mortgage payments if they rent out. At the end of the mortgage they hopefully will have a property paid off mortgage free. That is a buy to let investment. Not get rich quick but a slow steady investment.
Whether you bought on paloma beach or anywhere else you would be helping the canary economy, and neither individual should be treated as a criminal for their efforts.
Whether you bought on paloma beach or anywhere else you would be helping the canary economy, and neither individual should be treated as a criminal for their efforts.
If you are breaking the law, they might treat you like a criminal :)
If you were to get a 70% mortgage, 30% deposit would mean 42k cash reqd, plus costs of approx 11% thats another 15k required without allowing for new fixtures and fittings that may be needed. So you have to come up with at least 57K in cash and then hope that rentals will pay the remaining mortgage ( probably about 600/700 per month )plus 100 community fees and all the other costs for the next 20 years or so.
Of course some posters on here will insist you´ll be "raking it in"
Of course you're raking it in after 20 years yo have a paid up property at no cost to yourself as well as the capital apprecation
a buy to let dream
it is really bewildering on this thread sometimes, what with going around in circles and arguing about the same thing all over again. Last night we read postings about the portugese system, ex pats over there grumbling about the extra costs of legal compliance. Seems the licence is 1000 euro for 3 years, so not far off my suggested 400 euro for a year here in the canaries. Short of Senor Escobedos suggestion of 1200 euro per year here, Whose side is he on ?
I stated that in my opinion I would be happy to pay these extra costs to be legal, mentioned that as long as I cover costs then thats me happy, and then off go other posters accusing private renters of raking it in.
At the end of the day its the same situation for a private owner in paloma beach or any other complex. They can probabley just about cover costs including mortgage payments if they rent out. At the end of the mortgage they hopefully will have a property paid off mortgage free. That is a buy to let investment. Not get rich quick but a slow steady investment.
Whether you bought on paloma beach or anywhere else you would be helping the canary economy, and neither individual should be treated as a criminal for their efforts.
I'm not seeing a lot of tax factored into the figures that are being displayed.
This is my point; Nelson and others have said "we only rented our aparmtents out for enough to cover expenses" - Expenses being, cleaning, laundry, maintenance, community fees, water, electrics and mortgage.
It's almost as if because they couldn't afford to buy outright then illegal letting to recover the mortgage outgoing is a legitamet excuse - "oh he's only breaking even and coveing costs"......... but this is exactly what a lot of owners do with legal letting - there is no difference.
This is what investment property is all about, there are trwo ways to do it depending on your financial circumstances:
If you have all of the capital you buy the property knowing you'll get a return on your money regularly so your money is not just sat in a bank doing nothing - if you choose to sell then you'd wait (if you could) until the value of the property has gone up thus making a profit on your investment.
If you need a mortgage then depending on how much you put in you will either break even, make a tiny profit, or make a small loss by renting it. When you come to sell you would also hope to sell the property at a profit.
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