View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
To the best of my knowledge :0 talking to several neighbours who have received fines thats not how it has been explained to them by their lawyer but it may have lost something in the translation :wink: This is exactly how it works, unless you are a lawyer offering your clients an expensive get out;and then ,guess what? It's still exactly how it works but you've also paid your expensive lawyer. We are now seeing fines lowered by a small amount ( just about enough to cover the fees).
I think Oasis has taken the steam out of the Tenerife forum lobby with his REAL LIFE experience. The only way to counter that now is to call him a liar but why would he do that?
I feel for those who have bought into this illegal situation because they have received poor advice.
Angusjim
04-03-2012, 10:18
I am off to Fuerteventura Tuesday and I have been discussing this subject with my "friends" who's apartment we are using and it seems that very few people there including them know anything about this yet, is Tenerife being targeted more than the other islands ?
I think Oasis has taken the steam out of the Tenerife forum lobby with his REAL LIFE experience. The only way to counter that now is to call him a liar but why would he do that?
I feel for those who have bought into this illegal situation because they have received poor advice.
Spot on Loaded. It is exactly how fines work here. Many of us have been trying to say this throughout but the advice has fallen on ears that don't want to hear the reality.
Oasis' situation is also proof, if it were needed, that the law has not been dormant since 1995 as many also believe, true it has not been implimented with the vengance it has since the coming of the inspectors, but it has been used in the past and cements the fact that ignorance, or blatent disregard of it, is no excuse.
As Loaded, I do feel much sympathy for those who received inapropriate advice in the past and are now caught up in this. I would imagine there are a fair few Estate Agents quaking in their boots right now - especially those who fear that clients whose decisions on purchasing an "affected" apartment were influenced by the "Good letting potential" descriptions attached to the property could demonstrate this advice being given in correspondance relating to the purchase.
Many folk who were genuinely ignorant of the law and ill advised will surely ultimately be seeking to recover something from their "reputable and trustworthy" advisor(s) and looking through some websites recently it is amasing how many apartments in residencial complexes are still being marketed this way.
However, I'm struggling to find any sympathy whatsoever with those who knew the risks - s'life innit!
Did you see any black and red police cars ,police uniforms over there? Here we have a special police unit which is used to police problems relating to tourism.As we have seen earlier some 18-20 of this force have spent their time researching illegal rentals. They were chosen for their command of languages and general ability to intergrate with the extranjeros. I'm not sure if Fueraventura would merit such a force.
I am off to Fuerteventura Tuesday and I have been discussing this subject with my "friends" who's apartment we are using and it seems that very few people there including them know anything about this yet, is Tenerife being targeted more than the other islands ?
Angusjim
04-03-2012, 14:11
If the Canarian government are really trying to sort out this issue why don't they now insist by law that anyone selling properties must CLEARLY state in their adverts that properties can or cannot be used for holiday lets and dish out heavy fines to anyone who does not do this. Would not help what has happened but may at last deter unscrupulous agents from misleading potential clients and may be the start of regulating the estate agents who should in my opinion should be a fully regulated industry, seems to me at the moment anyone can just pitch up and call themselves Estate Agents just need a computer and off you go.
interesting points above,
Fuerteventura does seem to have been affected less by the government clampdown, if you check figures on Holiday Lettings from a year ago to now Fuerteventuras number has grown while Tenerife's has shrunk considerably. This makes me wonder if they thought they'd try the biggest island first and then go onto the rest........ we will see.
Estate Agents should be held more accountable for how they sell property, the problem is getting them to state "this property can be rented to tourists" is still not enough information for them. EG you could buy an apartment on Royal Palm and be told it's legal to rent out but it's only legal if you go through the oniste agent.
I am off to Fuerteventura Tuesday and I have been discussing this subject with my "friends" who's apartment we are using and it seems that very few people there including them know anything about this yet, is Tenerife being targeted more than the other islands ?
There was a ''Home in the Sun'' or some such programme on the TV last week in Fueteventura.
The Agent they spoke to and the presenter of the programme were VERY conscious of the laws relating to 'Touristic' and 'Residencial' apartments, referring to it in relation to each apartment they viewed!
They were not aware when they arrived in the Canary Islands. I explained it myself to the presenter when they were in Tenerife and they hadn't heard about it.
seanocelt
05-03-2012, 00:47
I asked my friend on Fuerteventura, an ex Tenerife resident of 16 years, what the impact was there ,and how people were dealing with it. He said...."que??". Kid you not.
Tenerife Villas
05-03-2012, 11:32
Name the complex please otherwise I'm sorry I cannot take this post seriously.. The Family & Friends thing is total garbage. They can "claim" to have taken all the legal advice they want but either its a very badly trained lawyer, a lawyer that was happy to take their money to tell them what they wanted to hear or they are lying, so please name the complex, thankyou
as promised the agent is called "going tenerife" based on san andres, golf del sur run by Two ladies who rule there owners with an iron rod, the company was forced on the complex by Diamond resorts who with the help of a bent comunidad are trying to get rid of the original agent who , by the way did not stop owners using there own properties as and when they wanted to.
sorry.... re post full story so we don't have to trawlk back several thousand pages?????????
as promised the agent is called "going tenerife" based on san andres, golf del sur run by Two ladies who rule there owners with an iron rod, the company was forced on the complex by Diamond resorts who with the help of a bent comunidad are trying to get rid of the original agent who , by the way did not stop owners using there own properties as and when they wanted to.
They don't seem to want to be named on their web site!!!
rkennedy
05-03-2012, 20:51
sorry.... re post full story so we don't have to trawlk back several thousand pages?????????
See posts 3396 and 3402
seanocelt
06-03-2012, 00:16
Janet has stated that there is a public meeting on March 15th, however Turismo are not attending.
Janet has stated that there is a public meeting on March 15th, however Turismo are not attending.
You beat me to it Sean :)
Thanks to Janet for alerting me to this: I understand the time and location are not yet confirmed.
"There is to be a public meeting on 15 March with regard to the illegal letting situation. Turismo will not be attending, but this will be a meeting of interested parties in order to discuss ways forward. A formal lobbying "asociación" has also now been registered, with its own articles dedicated to fighting the enforcement of this legislation. Further details on time and place of meeting to follow, as well as a report on the meeting after it has taken place, together with further information about the asociación and the steps it will be taking"
So who called the meeting?
I believe this thread is an important one to revive ... and hopefully we will not bore the socks off people quite as much as before
It started with an announcement in the papers in December 2010 that 17 new inspectors had been appointed to investigate illegal and hidden holiday lettings. We had reports of several letting agents being inspected, starting in February - some fines have been issued (and are being appealed as far as I know)
Loaded, has written a good background to the letting laws here
http://www.palomabeach.com/letting-law-95-explained.asp
EDIT - more up to date by Loaded
http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/the-1995-letting-law-in-tenerife-and-the-canaries.asp
It came as a shock to many owners of apartments in Residential complexes, that they were not entitled to rent out short term (which is anything below 3 months) as sadly, many had been told by agents that they could easily cover mortgage payments with holiday lettings.
It seems now that independent villas are close to being allowed rent out if duly registered (and inspected?) ... the debate continues as to whether there will be any amnesty for Residential complex letters or whether they will eventually be facing fines.
As I said at the end of my opening post back in December, if you are in the market for an apartment in Tenerife, you really do need to take into account these laws (of 1995 and 1998) which, it seems, are finally being enforced
i find the subject of legal/illegal lets confusing,having looked up the 2 links on the related "law" its not surprising.
It would help to have spelt out ;
when is a complexe residential and or tourist AND if a omplexe was built as a tourist complexe is it always a tourist complexe.
what is a tourist licence, who applies for it, what are the requirements(are they retrospective to existing properties}, what does it cost, how long does it last
who can be a "letting / management agent" ,if only 1 agent can be adopted for each complexe in whose interest doe he work!? etc etc et c
So who called the meeting?
Hitler
x
canary boy
06-03-2012, 19:51
:eek::eek:that's just awful
Hitler
x
Or his cousin Nelson ??
rolleyes2:rolleyes2:
Or his cousin Nelson ??
He has been very quiet lately
rolleyes2:rolleyes2:
He has been very quiet lately
More than likely because of your claim that you'd already been fined
As they process is clearly advancing a lot of " nothing will even happen" people don't post
More than likely because of your claim that you'd already been fined
Call in my office one day and I will show you the paperwork.
There is a couple of Villas on todays boleton and a reduction for a fine on El Mirador from 18k to 15k.
The clampdown continues.
Call in my office one day and I will show you the paperwork.
There is a couple of Villas on todays boleton and a reduction for a fine on El Mirador from 18k to 15k.
The clampdown continues.
I believe you already.
rolleyes2:rolleyes2:
He has been very quiet lately
Or maybe he,s gone "elsewhere" to get some real information,rather than the insults he gets on here.....pfft
Call in my office one day and I will show you the paperwork.
There is a couple of Villas on todays boleton and a reduction for a fine on El Mirador from 18k to 15k.
The clampdown continues.
Hi Oasis,
Can anyone view the boleton, is it on line, if so could you send the link.
Thanks
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/
canary boy
07-03-2012, 16:32
I suggest everyone with a interest in the outcome of this thread discontinues posting and attends the meeting next week and get all the information you need, I mean real information not snide or sarcastic comments from people who have got nothing better to do than read this forum all day!
Or maybe he,s gone "elsewhere" to get some real information,rather than the insults he gets on here.....pfft
I don't recall anyone being overly insulting to him and when they were he was quick to return the insults. His big problem was his attitude to anyone whose ideas on what the authorities were doing was different to his - various comments about returning to the style of the Franco regime spring to mind right away and also his mania for introducing the Portuguese law on letting to replace the Canarian government law.
I suggest everyone with a interest in the outcome of this thread discontinues posting and attends the meeting next week and get all the information you need, I mean real information not snide or sarcastic comments from people who have got nothing better to do than read this forum all day!
We don't even know who called the meeting, who's chairing it, who is it
For the benefit of ( those fined and affected because they let or those who have an interest in the law being upheld)....
A bit of progress on the complex where I own. We are talking about the possibility of the community taking over the licence and getting rid of the sole agent. (Who the vast majority of owners is unhappy with.) Does anyone have any advice on what this would entail?
A bit of progress on the complex where I own. We are talking about the possibility of the community taking over the licence and getting rid of the sole agent. (Who the vast majority of owners is unhappy with.) Does anyone have any advice on what this would entail?
Could work really well unless theres any fines .... Then everyone has to pay fines even if
They don't let
Added after 16 minutes:
Other problems... The owners will never get the maximum possible occupancy because the community won't be dealing with the availability of the apartments and dealing with travel agents and tour operators . This will mean the difference between being full 25-30 weeks and 40-45 weeks per year in most owners cases
Added after 9 minutes:
Also who will report monthly statistic to tourist board and how? You nee to know: how long everyone's here for, where they're from, how many apartments were occupied and for how long for every day of a certain 15 day period.
You'd need a Public liability insurance for all the apartments involved.
Added after 6 minutes:
How do the owners who don't let feel about the community incurring all
The costs involved?
Could work really well unless theres any fines .... Then everyone has to pay fines even if
They don't let
Added after 16 minutes:
Other problems... The owners will never get the maximum possible occupancy because the community won't be dealing with the availability of the apartments and dealing with travel agents and tour operators . This will mean the difference between being full 25-30 weeks and 40-45 weeks per year in most owners cases
Added after 9 minutes:
Also who will report monthly statistic to tourist board and how? You nee to know: how long everyone's here for, where they're from, how many apartments were occupied and for how long for every day of a certain 15 day period.
You'd need a Public liability insurance for all the apartments involved.
Added after 6 minutes:
How do the owners who don't let feel about the community incurring all
The costs involved?
Thanks for your help on this x It really is much appreciated.
The idea we have at the moment (by "we" I mean the President and committee members) is that the community could hold the licence and then appoint two local agents to organise the bookings for all of those who choose to holiday let their apartments. One agent would "service" the English owned apartments and the other, the German owned. Any other nationality could choose between the two. Each agent would have to ensure that each owner held public liability insurance and that all tax was paid on the earnings. The cost of the reception and all tecnicos (who would only work in communal areas , not individual apartments) would be split between all owners as at present even the owners who don't let their apartment do use these services. Every holiday maker would have to check in at reception giving their passport details etc and reception would pass those details onto the authorities (they do this with those booking into apartments currently letting via our current sole agent aswell as those staying in the timeshare owned apartments). I'm not sure how your point about occupancy will affect the owners. Those currently letting through the sole agent are given a fixed amount for the year (irrespective of how often the apartment is booked) whereas through the proposed system they would be paid per week booked. Those owners/agents who have taken bookings this way in the past have received a far higher remuneration than the current sole agent is offering.
What costs are we talking about? Reception and tecnicos I have covered. Cleaning and laundry would be charged per apartment per booking directly to the owner by the agent. Each agent would negotiate their fee for advertising and managing each property with each owner. I know I am being naive ... but what are the costs I am missing?
Thanks again to Janet - we now have details for the meeting on Thursday March 15th
"The public meeting on 15th March will take place at 10am at CDTCA, the Centro de Desarrollo Turístico Costa Adeje (Costa Adeje Touristic Development Centre). This is based in Calle las Jarcias, in the El Galeon area of Adeje"
Same place as the meeting was held last December - in answer to Loaded, it has been called, as last time, by Tenerife Litigation, the firm of lawyers that includes Jose Escobedo, and who are also responsible for setting up the new Association to lobby on this and other points regarding property matters.
Sadly, I have a previous engagement so cannot make this meeting, but I am sure Janet will attend and let us share her report as she did for the December meeting.
Thanks for your help on this x It really is much appreciated.
The idea we have at the moment (by "we" I mean the President and committee members) is that the community could hold the licence and then appoint two local agents to organise the bookings for all of those who choose to holiday let their apartments. One agent would "service" the English owned apartments and the other, the German owned. Any other nationality could choose between the two. Each agent would have to ensure that each owner held public liability insurance and that all tax was paid on the earnings. The cost of the reception and all tecnicos (who would only work in communal areas , not individual apartments) would be split between all owners as at present even the owners who don't let their apartment do use these services. Every holiday maker would have to check in at reception giving their passport details etc and reception would pass those details onto the authorities (they do this with those booking into apartments currently letting via our current sole agent aswell as those staying in the timeshare owned apartments). I'm not sure how your point about occupancy will affect the owners. Those currently letting through the sole agent are given a fixed amount for the year (irrespective of how often the apartment is booked) whereas through the proposed system they would be paid per week booked. Those owners/agents who have taken bookings this way in the past have received a far higher remuneration than the current sole agent is offering.
What costs are we talking about? Reception and tecnicos I have covered. Cleaning and laundry would be charged per apartment per booking directly to the owner by the agent. Each agent would negotiate their fee for advertising and managing each property with each owner. I know I am being naive ... but what are the costs I am missing?
Thanks for the reply.
The tourist board send out monthly forms that need to be filled in by the licence holder, this is different to sending the info to the police . You can be fines for not providing these stats.
What I meant with occupancy is that of you have a good agent Running things (which apparently you don't ) they will be able to lease with travel agents using their licence number (a lot of BIG ones require this) an thus generating bookings for the owners.
It's not the responsibility of each owner to get public liability insurance (and I doubt they could afford it separately) - the sole agent is required to provide this.
Another problem I've thought of is how you're going to push owners towards new requirements when essentially you're all your own boss.
Eg: you now need 2m beds as standard , I'm trying to push all my owners towards this - if they say " no" I can give them less bookings or worse de-register them - who will push the owners into these kind of updates when the owners themselves are the sole agent?
I find it very hard persuading owners to improve their properties
Noooo, not them.
Er no!
It seems you are having trouble working out what I think again, Bonitatime.
Obermoron trying to close another thread!
Thanks for the reply.
The tourist board send out monthly forms that need to be filled in by the licence holder, this is different to sending the info to the police . You can be fines for not providing these stats.
What I meant with occupancy is that of you have a good agent Running things (which apparently you don't ) they will be able to lease with travel agents using their licence number (a lot of BIG ones require this) an thus generating bookings for the owners.
It's not the responsibility of each owner to get public liability insurance (and I doubt they could afford it separately) - the sole agent is required to provide this.
Another problem I've thought of is how you're going to push owners towards new requirements when essentially you're all your own boss.
Eg: you now need 2m beds as standard , I'm trying to push all my owners towards this - if they say " no" I can give them less bookings or worse de-register them - who will push the owners into these kind of updates when the owners themselves are the sole agent?
I find it very hard persuading owners to improve their properties
Yes ... well I never thought this was going to be easy!!! Thanks for the points you've raised ... I'll take them back to the community and see if there is in fact a way to go forward. ..... thanks as always x
bonitatime
08-03-2012, 11:31
It will be interesting to see if Foz's community manage this and how that works out.
There's no reason at all why it won't work, it can and should work. The things I've pointed out can all be sorted out except for the biggie and thats getting one person pulling the strings on all of the aparmtents to achieve higher occupancy.
The community being the sole agent seems like a really good idea and I'd recommend it if you can't get a sole agent who you're happy to work with.
Fingers and toes are well and truly crossed xx
it will work ok for owners who are rented their own places but no good for people buying investment properties hoping someone else will fill the properties
it will work ok for owners who are rented their own places but no good for people buying investment properties hoping someone else will fill the properties
Well we are hoping to instruct two local agents (one aiming at assist the British owners and one the German) (this is the main split of owners) who will advertise the complex, while detailing the individual apartments available. The individual owners will also be allowed to channel their own bookings via the agents.
Well we are hoping to instruct two local agents (one aiming at assist the British owners and one the German) (this is the main split of owners) who will advertise the complex, while detailing the individual apartments available. The individual owners will also be allowed to channel their own bookings via the agents.
Can you actually have two agents ??
What about the 50% +1 part of the law ??
Isn't the law quite clear that there can only be one agent ??
Can you actually have two agents ??
What about the 50% +1 part of the law ??
Isn't the law quite clear that there can only be one agent ??
Well the community will be the licence holders and they will them employ the two agents just to look after the bookings and the cleaning.
tenerifelegal
08-03-2012, 19:18
Well the community will be the licence holders and they will them employ the two agents just to look after the bookings and the cleaning.
I think Victoria Court have been doing something like this for a few years?
Yes the idea of a combined company has been done before - I don't think the tourist board would agree to it if they knew but so long as they don't know the goings good!
A good idea but has to be done with some authority from whoever holds the licence or it becomes a "free for all" situation. The companies who will manage have to have a very close business relationship with the sole agent, otherwise there will be no control regarding tourist legislation. One will start competing against the other, cutting corners and the owners will go off and do their own thing. Example: we have a new owner who previously owned on a complex where this system of a blanket licence system is in place and they advised us that they do not have to channel their bookings through our office! I was told by the new owner that she had her own cleaners, she was going to advertise on holiday lettings, and handle all the transactions herself without involving me at all and that this was totally legal because she had done it for many years in the past on a complex where there was a blanket licence holder. When I explained to her that this complex does not have a blanket system and bookings have to come via my office her answer was that she can do her own thing as she will have the apartment registered with the tourist authorities with another company (for those of you not aware only one person/company can register apartments on a complex with touristic recognition). I was then told she was very dissapointed with my attitude! Another owner who may add to the current 7'400 number of growing notifications.
My suggestion for your situation would be for the licence holder (community of owners) to appoint one management company with power of attorney to run the lettings on your complex, then there could be additional companies working as agents under this one to handle the non English speaking guests.
Remember there has to be only one point of call when the tourist inspectors call and there will only be one company that is responsible for all the legislation required. Additional if something goes wrong then the company holding the licence is the one who pays the fine, and this fine is 10 fold the amount private renters face.
If you keep it tight and controlled it will work, if it is sloppy then it will fall apart and become a free for all.
Good luck.
tenerifelegal
10-03-2012, 09:56
A good idea but has to be done with some authority from whoever holds the licence or it becomes a "free for all" situation. The companies who will manage have to have a very close business relationship with the sole agent, otherwise there will be no control regarding tourist legislation. One will start competing against the other, cutting corners and the owners will go off and do their own thing. Example: we have a new owner who previously owned on a complex where this system of a blanket licence system is in place and they advised us that they do not have to channel their bookings through our office! I was told by the new owner that she had her own cleaners, she was going to advertise on holiday lettings, and handle all the transactions herself without involving me at all and that this was totally legal because she had done it for many years in the past on a complex where there was a blanket licence holder. When I explained to her that this complex does not have a blanket system and bookings have to come via my office her answer was that she can do her own thing as she will have the apartment registered with the tourist authorities with another company (for those of you not aware only one person/company can register apartments on a complex with touristic recognition). I was then told she was very dissapointed with my attitude! Another owner who may add to the current 7'400 number of growing notifications.
My suggestion for your situation would be for the licence holder (community of owners) to appoint one management company with power of attorney to run the lettings on your complex, then there could be additional companies working as agents under this one to handle the non English speaking guests.
Remember there has to be only one point of call when the tourist inspectors call and there will only be one company that is responsible for all the legislation required. Additional if something goes wrong then the company holding the licence is the one who pays the fine, and this fine is 10 fold the amount private renters face.
If you keep it tight and controlled it will work, if it is sloppy then it will fall apart and become a free for all.
Good luck.
How does your system work,if she was with you would she still be able to book out her own apartment & have her own cleaners ?
Surely having 1 Legal sole agent and 2 other translation outfits would result in less money going into the property owners pocket.
How does your system work,if she was with you would she still be able to book out her own apartment & have her own cleaners ?
We do not have a problem with owners promoting their own apartment. We used to have a system that permitted owners to use their own cleaners however this got abused as they didn't bother to tell us when the apartment was being occupied and therefore the clients details were not entered onto our system, their details were notregistered with the authorities as required by Spanish law and we were not paid the small management fee we charged. Also created a problem whereas we could not offer the apartment to clients as we did not know if the owners had taken private bookings! We know allow owners to use their own cleaners however the cleaners have to work for us directly.
Have any of the complexes wishing to apply for a tourist license, worked out the cost of bringing their complex in line with all the new regulations? With water sprinklers,closed in stairways and disabled access together with pool safety,24 hour reception and additional fire precautions,it could take a long time to recoup the investment. Maybe not,just interested if the costs are available.
Have any of the complexes wishing to apply for a tourist license, worked out the cost of bringing their complex in line with all the new regulations? With water sprinklers,closed in stairways and disabled access together with pool safety,24 hour reception and additional fire precautions,it could take a long time to recoup the investment. Maybe not,just interested if the costs are available.
Costing would be different per complex but would most certainly be in the 10's of thousands
Something like 350,000 euros for a large complex for fire protection i could look and dig out our quotes but something in that order. David
Something like 350,000 euros for a large complex for fire protection i could look and dig out our quotes but something in that order. David
That could well be the case for a large size complex. Now we can start to see the difference between basic needs and standards for tourists
The difference between the 2 types of activities and the why the legal is more expensive.
Something like 350,000 euros for a large complex for fire protection i could look and dig out our quotes but something in that order. David
Save their money! The fire safety laws were cancelled !
jogger321
10-03-2012, 22:30
Save their money! The fire safety laws were cancelled !
Obviously no longer a burning issue?
Obviously no longer a burning issue?
It fizzled out
So there are no longer any fire standards to meet when applying to become a tourist complex? Whilst I'm not doudting Loaded ´cos he's always on the nail with his info,it doesn't make sense.
only fire safety training for the staff members. Apart from that the entire law was "derrogado".......
Loaded is correct i tried to tell them so in our complex would not listen and they went ahead with the improvemrnts to our instalation. David
To be honest I think they will come back in some shape or form, makes sense to have smoke detectors etc.
Well we are hoping to instruct two local agents (one aiming at assist the British owners and one the German) (this is the main split of owners) who will advertise the complex, while detailing the individual apartments available. The individual owners will also be allowed to channel their own bookings via the agents.
Hello Foz. I have been following your efforts and progress with much interest. Congratulations. Could you perhaps please clarify two points for me?
The Sole Agent must have the infrastructure (24h/7day Office), the personnel (room cleaning) and the administrative organization to fullfil all legal requirements.
QUESTION 1 - Are you planning to duplicate such an existing organization after a cost/benefit analysis or only because of the inflexible position of the current Sole Agent on the terms and conditions he demands for his services?
QUESTION 2 - Can a Sole Agent be easily removed, considering the written delegation he must have from all owners to let their apartments (and possibly a written agreement covering his terms and conditions)?
I would have thought that replacing the current Sole Agent by an accredited, experienced one, willing to offer mutually agreable terms and conditions, would have relieved you (the owners) of a lot of administrative, legal, technical or letting potential problems/headaches?
Hi
Does anyone know how the law relates to independent villas (not attached to a community) with regards to holiday letting? Is it possible to apply AND obtain a letting license? If so can you then advertise when and where you like. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
Hi
Does anyone know how the law relates to independent villas (not attached to a community) with regards to holiday letting? Is it possible to apply AND obtain a letting license? If so can you then advertise when and where you like. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
Independent villas are not allowed to holiday let without a licence which the tourist board are not giving out,they are being fined for advertising to let
http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/villas-in-tenerife-and-holiday-lets.asp
"The public meeting on 15th March will take place at 10am at CDTCA, the Centro de Desarrollo Turístico Costa Adeje (Costa Adeje Touristic Development Centre). This is based in Calle las Jarcias, in the El Galeon area of Adeje"
Same place as the meeting was held last December - it has been called, as last time, by Tenerife Litigation, the firm of lawyers that includes Jose Escobedo, and who are also responsible for setting up the new Association to lobby on this and other points regarding property matters.
A reminder of the meeting to be held tomorrow morning - it will be in both Spanish and English.
bonitatime
14-03-2012, 16:27
Interestingly I was informed about the meeting by our Gestor
[QUOTE]]
Hello Foz. I have been following your efforts and progress with much interest. Congratulations. Could you perhaps please clarify two points for me?
The Sole Agent must have the infrastructure (24h/7day Office), the personnel (room cleaning) and the administrative organization to fullfil all legal requirements.
QUESTION 1 - Are you planning to duplicate such an existing organization after a cost/benefit analysis or only because of the inflexible position of the current Sole Agent on the terms and conditions he demands for his services?
QUESTION 2 - Can a Sole Agent be easily removed, considering the written delegation he must have from all owners to let their apartments (and possibly a written agreement covering his terms and conditions)?
I would have thought that replacing the current Sole Agent by an accredited, experienced one, willing to offer mutually agreable terms and conditions, would have relieved you (the owners) of a lot of administrative, legal, technical or letting potential problems/headaches?
Thanks for your interest ................ to be perfectly honest the idea of the community taking over the licence began as so many of the owners wished to use their apartments for a certain amount of the year and let them for the remainder .... Something that our sole agent would not allow (he specified owners could only have access to their own apartment for four weeks of the year to be taken in May/June or September/October). This and the fact that he offered a very small revenue. the only reason he held so many apartment son his licence was because when the complex was built every apartment automatically signed upto the licence and most owners were unaware that they had the option to remove their apartment from the licence. Of the 144 apartments that are listed on the licence only 27 are actually rented out by the sole agent!!!
The community are now investigating the costs they will incur if they encourage owners to remove themselves from the licence and for the community to take on the licence. At the moment I must say despite a number of owners being very passionate about the subject we have an even larger number who feel they would prefer that no one be allowed to holiday let their apt!! I am at present very doubtful there will be many changes to our complex!!
[QUOTE=xvd;154039]
Thanks for your interest ................ to be perfectly honest the idea of the community taking over the licence began as so many of the owners wished to use their apartments for a certain amount of the year and let them for the remainder .... Something that our sole agent would not allow (he specified owners could only have access to their own apartment for four weeks of the year to be taken in May/June or September/October). This and the fact that he offered a very small revenue. the only reason he held so many apartment son his licence was because when the complex was built every apartment automatically signed upto the licence and most owners were unaware that they had the option to remove their apartment from the licence. Of the 144 apartments that are listed on the licence only 27 are actually rented out by the sole agent!!!
The community are now investigating the costs they will incur if they encourage owners to remove themselves from the licence and for the community to take on the licence. At the moment I must say despite a number of owners being very passionate about the subject we have an even larger number who feel they would prefer that no one be allowed to holiday let their apt!! I am at present very doubtful there will be many changes to our complex!!
Hi Foz
Under the law as it stands, your current sole agent can't operate legally, he would need to have 73 of your 144 apartments to do that. If you can get 73 apartments signed up to your agent, I believe that you can usurp the current agent.
[QUOTE=Foz;154868]
Hi Foz
Under the law as it stands, your current sole agent can't operate legally, he would need to have 73 of your 144 apartments to do that. If you can get 73 apartments signed up to your agent, I believe that you can usurp the current agent.
Sorry .. I've confused you. We have 244 apartments on our complex. 144 are signed up to the exploitation licence. 50 of those are timeshare ... owned by the sole agent. 27 are independently owned but let on a "hotel" basis by the agent and the remainder do not let their apartments vis the agent despite the fact that they are listed on the exploitation licence.
Yes but you're battling against the ones who don't want tourism!
The only way of successfully getting 50%+1 is by getting the 27 existing rental apartments as part of the total.
Added after 2 minutes:
So you need 123 in total, there are 50+27= 77 ... you need another 46 to be legal. Don't exclude the 50 timeshare or the 27 others or else you'll be looking for 123 instead of 46 to sign up
Yes but you're battling against the ones who don't want tourism!
The only way of successfully getting 50%+1 is by getting the 27 existing rental apartments as part of the total.
Added after 2 minutes:
I do admit to that "fighting a losing battle" feeling. Of the 27 who let via the sole agent ............. most are pretty apathetic and given an equal or better option I think they'd take it. Our main problem is the owners who would like the complex to become residential. I think that would be a terrible shame for the surrounding businesses .......... but maybe this is "progress" (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and maybe I'm just flogging a dying horse??? In an area where our complex is the only one with the possibility of holding a tourist licence (La Caleta .... all other complexes are residential) I think it's a crying shame if we don't hold onto the licence and actually offer some real return to the owners.
It is a crying shame , there are many more complexes like that who "should" be touristic or have always been "widely considered" touristic .... Unfortunately internal politics stop this from happening and many of those who stop it are the ones who "don't let" but really do but don't want to pay more for things to be run properly.
junglejim
15-03-2012, 07:34
Interestingly I was informed about the meeting by our Gestor
Even more interesting is that our President denied any knowledge of the meeting , even though we are trying to resurrect a dormant licence and he claims Sñr. Escobedo is his lawyer !
Somebody is telling porkies methinks!
bonitatime
15-03-2012, 09:44
http://www.laopinion.es/economia/2012/03/15/gobierno-elimina-restricciones-edificar-hoteles-cinco-estrellas/402495.html
The Papers lead today with a story the the need for 5 stars for new Hotels will not be renewed this spring. This will allow developments like El Mojón to build a range of buildings.
http://www.laopinion.es/economia/2012/03/15/gobierno-elimina-restricciones-edificar-hoteles-cinco-estrellas/402495.html
The Papers lead today with a story the the need for 5 stars for new Hotels will not be renewed this spring. This will allow developments like El Mojón to build a range of buildings.
I said that before THEY did so taking that into account make way for higher class regulated tourist accommodations and kiss your ass goodbye if you think for one minute your Canary Island residential is going to get the green light for holiday lets
Just to repeat myself some of Spains leading construction and investment companys are in talks about this.
I just rang the cabildo regarding this article and they say the moratorium will be revised in may, so we have to wait until then to see if it is lifted or not. Could have massive implications for owners of villas who aren't on a community of villas, and possibly owners of villas on a community who can reach the required number to register the entire community.
Added after 3 minutes:
Meeting about to start , will try and post updates
Added after 3 Hours 49 minutes:
Couldn't post while I was in there as phone signal was shocking..........
Anyway, here's my take on what happened:
There were about 80 people present, concerned owners, concerned estate agents, some press and a couple of local politicians who left before the Q&A.
The meeting began with the top table talking about how an association has now been formed, they went through the stages of the cases of the people who had been fined so far and it transpires that after appealing the original fines on the grounds that the tourist board couldn't prove that people had stayed just because of an internet advert with the owners name and phone number on it......
The Tourist board basically said : "no we don't accept that but will reduce the fines a little".
I don't blame them because Article 31 of ley 7/1995 the law says tourist accommodation or tourist activity is when accommodation is "offered liberally of a temporary form..." - so it was offered. the fact that its not proved that the offer was taken up is irrelevant.
Tenerife Litigation responded to that and gave the tourist board 10 reasons why the law was a bad idea such as: damage to the ecomony, affect on jobs, owners won't be able to pay mortgages, visitors want a choice of where to stay etc etc.....
The Tourist board responded to this by saying it is not their problem, and most importantly i feel: they do not want a flood of new accommodation beds brought intot the market as that would have a negative affect on legal accommodations as they wouldn't be able to maintain their prices as they are.
The top table went on to say they are now seeking 15,000 signatures to try and force the government to look at the law again.
There was some confusion as to what was necessary for the forms, apparently name and NIE or passport of anyone in the whole world who think the law needs changing is ok - on that basis it shouldnt be hard to get 15,000 signatures.......
There was at the end a Q&A and I must say I was very surpirsed at the lack of knowledge that still exists regarding this law both by the people in attendance and unfortunatley some of the top table.
EG: when someone asked the age old question of "what is a tourist anyway?" this was not answered by anyone on the top table as per the definition in the laws. Instead it was more of a "well , thats the trouble - no body knows, it's not clear.... less than 3 months but you know....." Janet was the only person who actually gave a coherant answer but I still don't think it was the right one.
The definition of a tourist is in the law and I felt that the top table should have said that although they can't remember the exact definition it is there in article 15 of the 7/1995 law .
I said that Villas had a great argument for being able to let but I asked if the association is going to make clear that anyone on a residential complex with a property they want to let is not going to be supported by the association and that that is not an aim of the association.
I asked this because Janet A wrote "I fear that many who hear "change the law" will imagine we'll be campaigning to allow touristic lets in residential complexes. As far as I'm aware that's not even on the horizon of the other members, and it's certainly not on mine."
I felt that should be made clear or else these owners are getting involved in something that could be a waste of their time..... I don't think it was made clear by the top table.
At the end a lady said she looked after apartments on a place in Golf Del sur that used to be touristic and timeshare but since the timeshare company pulled out the complex lost it's tourist status. She asked what her options were and what to tell her owners.... she was told that the best thing is to join the association and join the campaign for change......... THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER!!!!
The correct answer is that because she is on a complex that is "dormant tourist" (ie had a licence holder with 50%+1 but now doesn't) she can infact get the owners together and if they reach 50+1 they can appoint and sign up to a sole agent or create a sole agent in the shape of their own community.
The top table told me "it's not as easy as that".... YES IT IS. I had direct talks in person with the head of section of the cabildo as recently as January and asked: "if I get 50%+1 of the owners on X complex which had a sole agent but now doesn't, can I be given the licence?" The answer was yes.
It is my feeling that all members of the Association, particlularly those leading it need to learn and understand the law. They need to give answers when questions are asked and if they don't know the answer, look it up.... it gave me the impression that they were quite happy to keep the confusion flowing if that meant they could get more signatures.
For me there are several groups of affected people and here they are along with my advice to them all :
1. Independant Villa owers who want to rent - fair enough get behind the association.
2. Owners of villas on a community of owners / owners of apartments in a residential community - Janet has said it's not on the horizon so why waste your time and possibly money unless you are just a concerned bystander?
3. Owners on a "dormant touristic complex" - should get behind the association if they havent' already tried to get 50%+1 of the owners together and appoint a new sole agent. Why fight the governement when you could much easier try and get whats needed already.
4. Owners on a touristic complex: Sign up to the sole agent or try and usurp them if they're crap. Why fight the governement when you could much easier try and get whats needed already.
5. if you're a concerned local business owner or worker and think this law is going to affect you - get behind the association.
There was some confusion as to what was necessary for the forms, apparently name and NIE or passport of anyone in the whole world who think the law needs changing is ok - on that basis it shouldnt be hard to get 15,000 signatures.......
There was at the end a Q&A and I must say I was very surpirsed at the lack of knowledge that still exists regarding this law both by the people in attendance and unfortunatley some of the top table.
EG: when someone asked the age old question of "what is a tourist anyway?" this was not answered by anyone on the top table as per the definition in the laws. Instead it was more of a "well , thats the trouble - no body knows, it's not clear.... less than 3 months but you know....." Janet was the only person who actually gave a coherant answer but I still don't think it was the right one.
The definition of a tourist is in the law and I felt that the top table should have said that although they can't remember the exact definition it is there in article 15 of the 7/1995 law .
I said that Villas had a great argument for being able to let but I asked if the association is going to make clear that anyone on a residential complex with a property they want to let is not going to be supported by the association and that that is not an aim of the association.
I asked this because Janet A wrote "I fear that many who hear "change the law" will imagine we'll be campaigning to allow touristic lets in residential complexes. As far as I'm aware that's not even on the horizon of the other members, and it's certainly not on mine."
I felt that should be made clear or else these owners are getting involved in something that could be a waste of their time..... I don't think it was made clear by the top table.
At the end a lady said she looked after apartments on a place in Golf Del sur that used to be touristic and timeshare but since the timeshare company pulled out the complex lost it's tourist status. She asked what her options were and what to tell her owners.... she was told that the best thing is to join the association and join the campaign for change......... THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER!!!!
The correct answer is that because she is on a complex that is "dormant tourist" (ie had a licence holder with 50%+1 but now doesn't) she can infact get the owners together and if they reach 50+1 they can appoint and sign up to a sole agent or create a sole agent in the shape of their own community.
The top table told me "it's not as easy as that".... YES IT IS. I had direct talks in person with the head of section of the cabildo as recently as January and asked: "if I get 50%+1 of the owners on X complex which had a sole agent but now doesn't, can I be given the licence?" The answer was yes.
It is my feeling that all members of the Association, particlularly those leading it need to learn and understand the law. They need to give answers when questions are asked and if they don't know the answer, look it up.... it gave me the impression that they were quite happy to keep the confusion flowing if that meant they could get more signatures.
Nice to see Paul Ruane & Janet directly involved here i've always admired that woman. I heard Loaded, a nice looking guy at the back with a funny hairdo get dodged with simply the wrong information from apparently legal professionals specializing in these cases.
It was said on a number of occasions that the Government only want tourists staying in Hotels which is quite frankly incorrect. Even though i think there are certain points that should be changed and/or reviewed within these Laws most of the confusion is down to the individual and as it seems even at a professional level.
The Spanish Lady speaker also made a few mistakes which were instantly corrected by the gentleman to her left.
The British for arguments sake find it strange using ID numbers because they don't need them in the UK, this is where a lot of problems are found, not understanding the Spanish way and constantly referring to "how it is in England"
I think the meeting fell apart over the Name & ID number issue required to be registered on these petitions to try and get the Law reviewed,
One guy churped up "if you don't feel happy with giving your ID number you could just change one of the numbers"
One thing is to say i knew nothing about these laws and the other is Common stupidity.
There's a few "just change a number" kind of people wrapped up as estate agents here and there were a few at that meeting.
whats wrong with my hair hippy???????? lol. :lol:
whats wrong with my hair hippy???????? lol. :lol:
They're jealous because you've still got it !!!
I get the feeling the owners who own on residential communities are going to get strung along, or string themsleves along with false hope, with the idea that this association is gunning for what they want when it appears at least that they aren't - or are they? I don't know.
Well to give the Spanish lady speaker her dues she did quite frankly say we aren't here for the residential letting because whats Residetial can not be changed. Which is kind of correct but not 100% correct.
so who are they here for? The owners who are on dormant touristic and existing touristic complexes have a clear possibility of getting their house in order, the only owners who are being unfairly treated in my opinion are owners of independant villas - with that in mind are we really to believe that the loss of people staying a few hundred villas is going to destroy the canarian ecconomy?????????
The whole economy argument and "we can't pay our mortgage" argument is mainly thought up because of the residential apartments who won't be booked anymore..... this is what i mean by clarifying who they're doing this for.
Added after 2 minutes:
The estate agents that I saw in the room today, Clear Blue Skies, Morfitt, Los Gig Props, Tenerife Property Shop all make their bread and butter from buy to let customers who usually buy 1 beds or 2 beds and let them out. Thats where they are now struggling, that and buy to let villas. No one wants to buy on the residential complexes because they can't legally let them.
Added after 5 minutes:
and further more if it's just for the owners of villas then they're trying to over turn the wrong law, they should just try and over turn the moratorium which comes up for revision in May........
They said they were here for everyone thats been affected.
Everyone me, you, the taxi driver, Zarion etc etc
But then they said Residential complexes will not change so they must mean not everyone affected
But just saying everyone?
But meaning something different??
Sounds more complicated than the letting Law i guess
I call for another meeting to clarify the first meeting...
They said they were here for everyone thats been affected.
Everyone me, you, the taxi driver, Zarion etc etc
But then they said Residential complexes will not change so they must mean not everyone affected
But just saying everyone?
But meaning something different??
Sounds more complicated than the letting Law i guess
I call for another meeting to clarify the first meeting...
Yeah definitely needs clarifying.
great news that the first meeting of the association has taken place. The top table appear to have grasped the situation and are well placed to take the campaign forward.
everyone who wants to see these prorectionist laws changed needs to join and support the association.
Its no good appealing to people to get themselves a sole agent, these things are unnecesary ad ons to the business of apartment letting in this internet age. The sole agent system just adds unecesary costs onto the client. The sole agent is like the man carrying a flag in front of a motor car 100 years ago, just not needed.
The letting laws came in to protect hotels, making apartments operate like hotels, 24 reception etc. Tourism in the canaries like everywhere else is stronger with hotels and self catering options. What is not needed is a system of sole agents monopolising the letting.
As I posted before the massive attack by the canary government on private letting could be like the japenese attack on pearl harbour, an incredible suprise event, but even on the day of the attack their ultimate defeat by the USA was assured.
The arguments of the association are common sense and straightforward. All will come good in the end with this.
All will come good in the end with this.
Keep calm and carry on. That's the spirit :crazy:
But the association hasn't actually got an argument that hasn't been slapped down already..... Or have I missed something?
First attempt at comunication with the Government over this didn't go too well
Tom & Sharon
15-03-2012, 22:00
great news that the first meeting of the association has taken place. The top table appear to have grasped the situation and are well placed to take the campaign forward.
everyone who wants to see these prorectionist laws changed needs to join and support the association.
Its no good appealing to people to get themselves a sole agent, these things are unnecesary ad ons to the business of apartment letting in this internet age. The sole agent system just adds unecesary costs onto the client. The sole agent is like the man carrying a flag in front of a motor car 100 years ago, just not needed.
The letting laws came in to protect hotels, making apartments operate like hotels, 24 reception etc. Tourism in the canaries like everywhere else is stronger with hotels and self catering options. What is not needed is a system of sole agents monopolising the letting.
As I posted before the massive attack by the canary government on private letting could be like the japenese attack on pearl harbour, an incredible suprise event, but even on the day of the attack their ultimate defeat by the USA was assured. :wow::c2:
The arguments of the association are common sense and straightforward. All will come good in the end with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1tY83PKwjc ;) :D
I guess El Mojon will be built before they allow everyone to do what they want
But the association hasn't actually got an argument that hasn't been slapped down already..... Or have I missed something?
you have missed nothing on this issue all along, and as I have said before the sole agent people are inteligent business minded people. In your hearts you all know that change must come and that the sole agent position can not remain in the future.
the system was not brought in in 1995 to help the sole letting industry, rather it was brought in to appease the hotels who were panicking about apartment competition. The latest crackdown was not started to help apartment sole agents, rather it was because the hotels were panicking in the crisis of 2008.
there may be some way to go before this is sorted and there is still time for more heavy handed government enforcement along the way.
In my opinion no sole agents actually believe that reform is not coming soon, the canary system is far too out of step with europeon harmony to carry on unreformed.
The winds of change are blowing.
.........
The winds of change are blowing.
I think you may be right, but not necessarily to your favour.
Looking at the Spanish Press today I would suggest an entirely different plan is emerging.
Bottom line goes roughly as follows. Country in the poo (much like everywhere else) and a crippled construction industry which is significantly larger than the restaurant industry. Loads of construction companies sitting on land not classified as 5* hotel land, but OK for apartments, small comunities and so on.... and most importantly generally out of date and decaying apartment complexes.
So
Relax the moritorium, impose stringent quality standards and off goes the construction industry building new - brand new touristically based apartments and villages etc.
Winners - lots of unemployed and construction company's. Losers will be existing touristic accomodation which will be required to be brought up to the new stringent standards which will be set - could end up costing you a stack load of dosh just to bring your flat up to standard.....
As Katy Perry might say - oh well.
Minimum standard of new complexes has to be 3 star as per last tourist regs from OCt 2010
And more fines appear on the boletin!
Minimum standard of new complexes has to be 3 star as per last tourist regs from OCt 2010
True, as it is today, but with Rivero running around saying we have to raise our game to compete with the Caribean and Med resorts, and rumours of a relaxation in the present restrictions, it seems likely the long term plan as he sees it is to up the minimum standards and get building.
If this is the way it goes in May when the moratorium is reviewed then you can bet the minimum touristic standards for new builds will be rolled out to the existing touristic offer as well, or perhaps a rating downgrade as the new builds become available.
Point though is that it does seem likely it will become progressively harder for existing touristic complexes to keep up with the requirements imposed on any new builds - especially the older ones. Real issue for Nelson and those in his position is that it appears the objective is to push for even more control of standards - the very standards he feels are unnecessary and restrictive - lifeguards/receptions etc. and the requirements for touristic licences and holders being harder to achieve. I don't see the sole agency being done away with any time soon - modified perhaps with a few rule changes along the way, but the concept of what could lead to a free for all with no control over standards is not the way this seems to be going.
Interestingly today in the BOC there is a link regarding Bungalow 4 in Club atlantis: http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/054/018.html recinding the fines and action against the owner because, well they can't be bothered anymore or whatnot... here is the original fine: http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/boc/2011/117/014.html
They were reported by someone and fined 18,000 euros........Crime was "Estar abierto al público en general, el establecimiento de referencia, como se desprende de la página web http://www.thevillacenter.co.uk; sin tener la preceptiva autorización de la Administración turística competente." - "the establishment being open to the public as gathered on the website......... witohut having the perceived authority from the turist authorities."
This is something some of us hypothesised about a few months back when they started changing the reason for the fines. Originally people were fined for not having the correct tourist authorisation and then this switched to "not having claim forms, inspection books etc"..... Did they realise they couldn't get them on the original crime and so they switched to a different tact?
This fine lapsing is very interesting and it will be interesting if the others that were hit with fines for internet ads will now get away with the fines.
The ones who got done for not having claim forms and inspection books may be less lucky.
Any thoughts?
Interestingly today in the BOC there is a link regarding Bungalow 4 in Club atlantis: http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/054/018.html recinding the fines and action against the owner because, well they can't be bothered anymore or whatnot... here is the original fine: http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/boc/2011/117/014.html
They were reported by someone and fined 18,000 euros........Crime was "Estar abierto al público en general, el establecimiento de referencia, como se desprende de la página web http://www.thevillacenter.co.uk; sin tener la preceptiva autorización de la Administración turística competente." - "the establishment being open to the public as gathered on the website......... witohut having the perceived authority from the turist authorities."
This is something some of us hypothesised about a few months back when they started changing the reason for the fines. Originally people were fined for not having the correct tourist authorisation and then this switched to "not having claim forms, inspection books etc"..... Did they realise they couldn't get them on the original crime and so they switched to a different tact?
This fine lapsing is very interesting and it will be interesting if the others that were hit with fines for internet ads will now get away with the fines.
The ones who got done for not having claim forms and inspection books may be less lucky.
Any thoughts?
It was always going to be easier to fine people for not having the "libro de reclamaciones" but I suspect that they won't make such large fines stick when historically the fine for not having the "libro" were around 900 Euros.
Yes but you're battling against the ones who don't want tourism!
The only way of successfully getting 50%+1 is by getting the 27 existing rental apartments as part of the total.
Added after 2 minutes:
So you need 123 in total, there are 50+27= 77 ... you need another 46 to be legal. Don't exclude the 50 timeshare or the 27 others or else you'll be looking for 123 instead of 46 to sign up
Hi - I am just trying to understand the calculation, for my infomation. Could you please check? Thank you!
1 244 Total nr. of apartments in complex (Foz)
2 144 Signed up to Sole Agent
of which:
3 50 Owned by Sole Agent (Timeshare)
4 27 Individual owners - let by Sole Agent
5 67 Individual owners - Signed up but not let through Sole Agent
6 100 Individual owners - not signed up by Sole Agent
7 123 = 50% + 1
Question 1 - Is reaching 123 with a mix of 4 (27), 5 (67) and 6 (100) such an insurmountable objective?
Question 2 - If the current Sole Agent drops below 123, he can be replaced. Correct?
or where did I go wrong! Thank you.
can I ask a question that may have already been asked but I dont want to sift through 361 pages to find the answer.
Is this issue about holiday lettings full stop or is it specifically aimed at complex/residential developments that do not comply with tourism in the licence?
What about stand alone villas that are not part of a community but pay all town hall taxes and declare any income. Is that still illegal? suspect it is but in reality is this a purge on residential developments or are both (apartments on a complex or stand alone Villas) just as likely to get found and fined?
Sorry for what may seem a stupid question at this late stage but I came into this very very late
It was always going to be easier to fine people for not having the "libro de reclamaciones" but I suspect that they won't make such large fines stick when historically the fine for not having the "libro" were around 900 Euros.
There are different levels of fines applied. A business that has not got a libro de reclamciones on display would surely receive a lower fine than one that is not entitled to have one!
can I ask a question that may have already been asked but I dont want to sift through 361 pages to find the answer.
Is this issue about holiday lettings full stop or is it specifically aimed at complex/residential developments that do not comply with tourism in the licence?
What about stand alone villas that are not part of a community but pay all town hall taxes and declare any income. Is that still illegal? suspect it is but in reality is this a purge on residential developments or are both (apartments on a complex or stand alone Villas) just as likely to get found and fined?
Sorry for what may seem a stupid question at this late stage but I came into this very very late
Sadly individual villas cannot obtain a licence under current legislation, regardless of whether they pay their taxes.
Hi - I am just trying to understand the calculation, for my infomation. Could you please check? Thank you!
1 244 Total nr. of apartments in complex (Foz)
2 144 Signed up to Sole Agent
of which:
3 50 Owned by Sole Agent (Timeshare)
4 27 Individual owners - let by Sole Agent
5 67 Individual owners - Signed up but not let through Sole Agent
6 100 Individual owners - not signed up by Sole Agent
7 123 = 50% + 1
Question 1 - Is reaching 123 with a mix of 4 (27), 5 (67) and 6 (100) such an insurmountable objective?
Question 2 - If the current Sole Agent drops below 123, he can be replaced. Correct?
or where did I go wrong! Thank you.
Question 1, ANSWER = Correct!
Question 2, Answer = if the agent drops below 50%+1 then his licence is in threat of been cancelled by the cabildo, if that happens someone else has to get 50%+1 or the current licence holder has to get back up. It doesn't work in the way that; license holder drops below 50% now he's out..... it's worth remembering that a sole agent can be replaced at any time by getting the existing owners to sign new authorizations for the prefered sole agent, Once 50%+1 are gathered then they can be presente to the Cabildo and they will check it all out and then give the license to the new applicant.
Added after 4 minutes:
can I ask a question that may have already been asked but I dont want to sift through 361 pages to find the answer.
Is this issue about holiday lettings full stop or is it specifically aimed at complex/residential developments that do not comply with tourism in the licence?
What about stand alone villas that are not part of a community but pay all town hall taxes and declare any income. Is that still illegal? suspect it is but in reality is this a purge on residential developments or are both (apartments on a complex or stand alone Villas) just as likely to get found and fined?
Sorry for what may seem a stupid question at this late stage but I came into this very very late
http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/villas-in-tenerife-and-holiday-lets.asp
Alan Nicolson
17-03-2012, 02:37
Regarding the meeting of the Association, as mentioned by Loaded, I attended the meeting on behalf of our Estate Agency, Clear Blue Skies Group. I think we are uniquely affected by this situation as we also had 2 villas (in Adeje Golf) which we rented to tourists (and paid igic and profit tax on the rentals) which after 5 years have had to sell at a massive loss to our company and me as an individual. We also own Restaurante Sebastian which like all businesses in the tourist sector, will be detrimentally affected by the inplementation of this legislation. The lady in the center of the top table at the meeting is Maria Blasco, who is an employee of Clear Blue Skies Group. I have had extensive dialogue and meeting with Jose Escobedo and Santiago Saenz, the two lawyers involved, and will try to answer some questions posed in this forum. The association has been formed to try to persuade the government to change the laws which completely prevent the letting of villas and severely restrict the renting of apartments, and to provide collective support for people who have received the outrageously disproportionate fines for letting their apartments. They are not trying to have residential complexes made into tourist complexes, but would support the reduction / retraction of fines for everyone affected. There is also considerable concern that some of the exploitation companies who are given automatic exclusivity in a given apartment complex, are taking advantage of this position to offer pitifully low returns to owners. Frankly only on a handful of complexes, one of which Loaded is in charge of, there is nothing to sell investors in South Tenerife, and prospective investors these days leave empty-handed to go and spend their money in Cyprus, Turkey, or even the UK where investment of this kind is encouraged. We are appalled that to this very day, some Estate Agents are still selling apartments and villas on the basis that they can be rented privately to tourists.
I hope this clarifies the basic aims of the association, it's probably a bit fuzzy still, but they should be supported by everyone who cares about the sustainability of South Tenerife. Replanting banana trees really is not an option.
Well said Alan and thanks for the kind words.
I feel highly sympathetic towards villa owners and fully support their argument .
Obviously the association is primarily helping those affected (most of which are owners of residential apartments), once they have been given the help they need is that the end to the support given to owners of residential apartments? I ask because without the illegal residential apartments being taken into account, the only thing the association is pushing for is the lifting of the moratorium so that owners of villas can once again register their properties.
So really the association needs to push for the moratorium to be lifted when it's up for revision in may.
Another good shout is for sole agents to be scrutinised more than they are.
However if the aims of the association are not to incorporate residential apartments then surely the only possible loss of income to the economy is that of visitors to villas?
While that sector is not to be poo poo'd, is it really going to destroy the Canarian economy ?
Obviously it's better to have it than not but I suspect the doomsday theories of the association are based more on losing the much larger residential apartment black economy despite giving us a different message regarding this .
Obviously the estate agent businesses are going to struggle and a prime example of the frustrations honest ones are facing was yesterday, when Paul from Clear blue Skies had someone ready to buy on paloma beach but no 1 bed property to sell them!!!! Must be incredibly frustrating.
However I believe the moratorium will be lifted in may and the property Market will once again flourish, if new tourist apartment complexes are built there is a big possibility of estate agents being able to sell investment property and the villa Market will be back on track.
Added after 19 minutes:
I should add that all the "dormant touristic" complexes already have the power to chose as to wether they work together and achieve over 50% and regain a tourist status or remain residential.
The moratorium does not cover complexes that have already been registered.
Does anyone know if the inspectors are still "inspecting"?
Nobody has mentioned them for some time now.
I know for a fact they're looking at paloma beach right now
I know for a fact they're looking at paloma beach right now
So if anything they're working overtime then? That's certainly answered my question.
Alan Nicolson
17-03-2012, 12:17
Regarding the association, I'm not their spokesman, but I think in reply to "Loaded", the villa rentals sector is an extremely important one in Tenerife, and this could simply be resolved by the town halls creating a certification and inspection department, (which would create jobs as opposed to their current policy of destroying jobs). People who come to villas in my experience, eat out most nights, hire cars, take a taxi of an evening etc, and are generally big spenders. However the doomsday scenario is caused by a combination of several factors.
1) The aforementioned villa problem
2) The law has stopped people legally letting in apartment complexes which you describe as "dormant". ie a holiday complex with no exploitation company. Purely a technicality but you'll still face an 18k fine.
3) The huge number of complexes which do have exploitation companies where people had been letting themselves because in many cases the exploitation company does not accept their apartments, or offer a ludicrously low return. A few years ago, we owned an apartment in Laguna Park 1, which we wanted to put in exploitation. The exploitation company on several occasions declined to take it on, unofficially because we had renovated it and it didn't have the 25 year old furnishings like the ones they were renting. This is not a few hundred, these are thousands of these apartments, in holiday complexes throughout the south, often where the exploitation company had no problem whatsoever with private lettings, yet owners are being fined.
4) The effect on the property market is devastating, I spend my entire time now explaining to people, often ones I've never met before, what is going on. Invariably the end result is another property on the market. We are currently approaching 1100 properties, and I don't have to tell you what happens to the market when supply grossly exceeds demand.
5) The growth of the all-inclusive sector. One of two things happen when you remove the private lettings from the market, either the client goes to an apartment in another place and we lose them completely, perhaps forever. The alternative is now that they will probably find themselves in an all inclusive hotel, where we may as well have lost them, as their spending in Tenerife is virtually or actually zero.
In a time of financial austerity, Tenerife needs to be widening it's tourist offering, and be actively marketing and promoting the island, not pandering to a handful of hotel owners who with their 30 or 40 year old hotels are forcing Turismo to enforce outdated laws which will definitely not help the economy of Tenerife, or provide jobs for the huge number of people unemployed in Tenerife. They are correct to try to enforce minimum standards, and should have done so by creating a Certification and Inspection Department in the Town Halls, not by creating monopolies in the many tourist complexes where tourists stayed happily year after year.
150000 New touristic beds coming our way http://www.laopinion.es/economia/2012/03/16/canarias-suelo-150000-nuevas-camas-turisticas/402759.html
150000 New touristic beds coming our way http://www.laopinion.es/economia/2012/03/16/canarias-suelo-150000-nuevas-camas-turisticas/402759.html
Won't that be at the expense of 150000 existing beds?
What 150000 existing beds are they?
I hope they will have fully thought out and can guarantee the terms and conditions of the exploitacion license (and that they actually make investment in such properties viable...) before they think about punting these out to the estate agents here otherwise on what basis are they supposed to be sold?
The problem with exploitacion monopolies is that X amount can be on offer to owners this year but then next year they can reduce their offering (substantially if they wish) leaving the owner high and dry. There doesn't seem to be any control whatsoever over this nor is there much individual owners can do when the license holder decided to fully "exploit" his exploitacion license. It makes it very difficult to sell them when you have to tell buyers "Well next year - who knows what they´ll offer?"
The ones that Alan, Young Golfer and Cim & co can't give away.
What about a 24hours reception but renting your own apartment out if you want to?
Added after 3 minutes:
The ones that Alan, Young Golfer and Cim & co can't give away.
Last week business was booming for those guys
What about a 24hours reception but renting your own apartment out if you want to?
Added after 3 minutes:
Last week business was booming for those guys
If you seriously believe that then I can only suggest you have another look at part 4 of Alan Nicolson's post half a dozen back from this.
They are a well known Estate agents in Tenerife i would expect they had a lot of properties on their books
I want to know the percentage increase of properties since this clampdown started.
If you seriously believe that then I can only suggest you have another look at part 4 of Alan Nicolson's post half a dozen back from this.
We are actually really busy as are a few other agents I speak to. Plenty of sales so far this year but obviously the fall out from all this means we could be doing even more. Plenty of clients walk away completely astounded after a half hour discussion about the letting law and how it affects them as a potential purchaser. For many, its too much to take in and throws far too many doubts upon buying as a pure investment.
We are actually really busy as are a few other agents I speak to. Plenty of sales so far this year but obviously the fall out from all this means we could be doing even more. Plenty of clients walk away completely astounded after a half hour discussion about the letting law and how it affects them as a potential purchaser. For many, its too much to take in and throws far too many doubts upon buying as a pure investment.
Sorry, I'm not looking for an argument with this question. Are you saying more sales or more properties for sale?
Regarding the association, I'm not their spokesman, but I think in reply to "Loaded", the villa rentals sector is an extremely important one in Tenerife, and this could simply be resolved by the town halls creating a certification and inspection department, (which would create jobs as opposed to their current policy of destroying jobs). People who come to villas in my experience, eat out most nights, hire cars, take a taxi of an evening etc, and are generally big spenders. However the doomsday scenario is caused by a combination of several factors.
1) The aforementioned villa problem
2) The law has stopped people legally letting in apartment complexes which you describe as "dormant". ie a holiday complex with no exploitation company. Purely a technicality but you'll still face an 18k fine.
3) The huge number of complexes which do have exploitation companies where people had been letting themselves because in many cases the exploitation company does not accept their apartments, or offer a ludicrously low return. A few years ago, we owned an apartment in Laguna Park 1, which we wanted to put in exploitation. The exploitation company on several occasions declined to take it on, unofficially because we had renovated it and it didn't have the 25 year old furnishings like the ones they were renting. This is not a few hundred, these are thousands of these apartments, in holiday complexes throughout the south, often where the exploitation company had no problem whatsoever with private lettings, yet owners are being fined.
4) The effect on the property market is devastating, I spend my entire time now explaining to people, often ones I've never met before, what is going on. Invariably the end result is another property on the market. We are currently approaching 1100 properties, and I don't have to tell you what happens to the market when supply grossly exceeds demand.
5) The growth of the all-inclusive sector. One of two things happen when you remove the private lettings from the market, either the client goes to an apartment in another place and we lose them completely, perhaps forever. The alternative is now that they will probably find themselves in an all inclusive hotel, where we may as well have lost them, as their spending in Tenerife is virtually or actually zero.
In a time of financial austerity, Tenerife needs to be widening it's tourist offering, and be actively marketing and promoting the island, not pandering to a handful of hotel owners who with their 30 or 40 year old hotels are forcing Turismo to enforce outdated laws which will definitely not help the economy of Tenerife, or provide jobs for the huge number of people unemployed in Tenerife. They are correct to try to enforce minimum standards, and should have done so by creating a Certification and Inspection Department in the Town Halls, not by creating monopolies in the many tourist complexes where tourists stayed happily year after year.
Are you related to Nelson?
Sorry, I'm not looking for an argument with this question. Are you saying more sales or more properties for sale?
If there wasnt so much confusion and if the laws relating to touristic letting weren't so complex and unfair then we could sell a lot more to people who need a decent return on the money they use to purchase. But as it is, it is putting A LOT of people off buying.
It obviously doesn't affect lifestyle buyers or people who dont want to let their properties out and that is still a busy sector. Difficult to quantify if there are more sales overall in the market as mine could just be due to the website doing better and better rather than macro market effects.
Estate agents are continuing to go out of business though - Horizon, Tate properties, Sunway, the one around the corner from us - Sunshine Properties have also just shut up shop so it is definitely a lot harder for agencies now.
I can well understand how much of a head fcku it must be to potential buyers, not surprised they're put off.
But it is looking more and more like the government don't want private rentals here , if la opinions opinion is believed we're on our way to 150,000 new beds.... Someone remind me how many illegal beds they said there were???? ....
A few changes to the way touristic complexes operate - sole agent has to give clients an option on putting there own clients in for a set management fee - for example and perhaps have some sort of audit facility so the sole agent cant kick the ass out out of what they are taking from the rental - would go a long way to solving a lot of the problems.
I think I have mentioned it before on here - most recent experience:
Offered properties for sale on touristic complex
Price is 138,000€ plus around 14,000€ in costs
Exploitacion offers owners 9€ a night... (when they can fill it)
Conversation went something like this:
"My buyers are not interested as your payout is very low, they want to be able to do what they want with it - specifically put their own clients in and have it fully legal"
(After much to-ing and fro-ing and several calls) "Well ok they can put their own clients in then"
"Great, so they just let reception know and clients pick keys up etc...?"
"No, reception cant have anything to do with it - nothing to do with us at all"
"So that´ll be illegal letting then for which they are liable for up to 18,000€ in fines?"
"Err...."
And people think estate agents have been giving out bad advice... The people running these places dont even seem to understand these rules!
I can well understand how much of a head fcku it must be to potential buyers, not surprised they're put off.
But it is looking more and more like the government don't want private rentals here , if la opinions opinion is believed we're on our way to 150,000 new beds.... Someone remind me how many illegal beds they said there were???? ....
Rodriguez made his statement following accusations by the socialist deputy, Olivia Estévez claimed that there were 400,000 illegal tourist beds a further 650,000 ‘clandestine’ ones
Added after 2 minutes:
http://newsinthesun.com/2010/12/government-promise-to-stamp-out-illegal-tourist-lets/
golf birdie
17-03-2012, 14:53
as that article was from December 2010 and it said,
''Rodriguez said that 17 inspectors would be employed full-time for the whole of next year to weed out the offenders''.
does this mean the 17 have now finished.
as that article was from December 2010 and it said,
''Rodriguez said that 17 inspectors would be employed full-time for the whole of next year to weed out the offenders''.
does this mean the 17 have now finished.
Think the period has been extended. Loaded stated earlier that they had recently been to Paloma Beach.
golf birdie
17-03-2012, 15:00
Think the period has been extended. Loaded stated earlier that they had recently been to Paloma Beach.
there have always been some inspectors, anyone know if the extra 17 are still working.
But it is looking more and more like the government don't want private rentals here , if la opinions opinion is believed we're on our way to 150,000 new beds.... Someone remind me how many illegal beds they said there were???? ....
Think you may be right. The government don't think they can cope with all the tourists they have now - never mind any more - http://www.canarianweekly.com/ministers-gaff/
Tom & Sharon
17-03-2012, 15:32
Think you may be right. The government don't think they can cope with all the tourists they have now - never mind any more - http://www.canarianweekly.com/ministers-gaff/
I know people have to make a living (sorry Loaded) but I have to say that the single agent exploitation rules would stop me buying an investment property in Tenerife. Only touristic of course!
Next year, we might consider buying an investment property somewhere. If we could legally rent one out ourselves to holidaymakers on a weekly basis, then we would probably buy in Tenerife. But with the law as it stands no way. There's no way I would buy a property to be offered a return of 9€ a night and for someone else to be calling the shots in our property.
Long term rental, you are in charge, but the capital return is higher in the UK, so for us, it would have to be UK.
I have a friend who has a 9 bed house in Snowdonia, and rents it out for up to £4000 a week, weekends 75% of weekly rent, and it's full every weekend of the year, and all summer, Christmas and New year. Now that's a return.
You can buy a gorgeous 6 bed house in N Wales, sleeping 12 for under £300,000, put it on Holiday Cottages, and the return is amazing.
Red Devil
17-03-2012, 16:34
Think you may be right. The government don't think they can cope with all the tourists they have now - never mind any more - http://www.canarianweekly.com/ministers-gaff/
I really don't think the tourist chiefs/government have any idea at all how many tourists come to Tenerife. All they seem to judge things on is how many hotel beds are occupied.
Do they not wonder who are on all the Easyjet/Ryanair/Monarch flights? Where do they think all the thousands of swallows who arrive every winter for weeks at a time stay? Try booking an apartment for 6 - 8 weeks for next winter via a holiday company, you have no chance.
Interesting that although I dont think it was reported on here, JA did say their action group would also try to suggest ways for making some residential complexes touristic at the May moratorium meeting.
Everyone screams that residential means just that but I am sure the vast majority who bought on the newer complexes slap bang in the middle of tourist areas could well want their complex to change as most people bought on those with the intention of an investment return anyway. This would legalise all of that.
Obviously there would be problems to overcome, especially important that it would have to be a majority vote, there would be changes necessary to meet regulations etc but nothing that would be insurmountable in some cases. If all that criteria was met, why would anyone not be in favour?
There does seem to be an interesting turn to the way the islands are moving, that being discouraging private ownership of touristic property.
At the end of the day, if you want to buy yourself a second home in the sun then you and always will be free to do so, and there is precious little the Government can actually do to stop this.
But it does seem that if you need to finance such a purchase through income from letting it out to holiday makers the Canarian Government do have a very vested interest. You can't blame them for having a desire to stipulate the minimum quality of accomodation a tourist might expect and the minimum levels of service which must be provided and enshrining this in law - it is, after all, the single most importand product the islands have.
On the assumption that the business/investment world is prepared to fund any new builds (a fairly large assumption at the present moment) why would the Government here want a load of individual foreigners lining their own pockets.
I guess you cannot really blame them!
Added after 6 minutes:
I really don't think the tourist chiefs/government have any idea at all how many tourists come to Tenerife. All they seem to judge things on is how many hotel beds are occupied.
Do they not wonder who are on all the Easyjet/Ryanair/Monarch flights? Where do they think all the thousands of swallows who arrive every winter for weeks at a time stay? Try booking an apartment for 6 - 8 weeks for next winter via a holiday company, you have no chance.
Interesting that although I dont think it was reported on here, JA did say their action group would also try to suggest ways for making some residential complexes touristic at the May moratorium meeting.
Everyone screams that residential means just that but I am sure the vast majority who bought on the newer complexes slap bang in the middle of tourist areas could well want their complex to change as most people bought on those with the intention of an investment return anyway. This would legalise all of that.
Obviously there would be problems to overcome, especially important that it would have to be a majority vote, there would be changes necessary to meet regulations etc but nothing that would be insurmountable in some cases. If all that criteria was met, why would anyone not be in favour?
Majority of Swallows stay in their own apartments, or long term rent which is legal.
I don't disagree that some complexes could perhaps be reclassified from Residential to Touristic, but even if there were a way to do this in law, you would need 100% agreement of all owners - or the other owners who wish to let be prepared to buy out or compensate those who dont.
Human rights issues and all that.....
delderek
17-03-2012, 17:01
Just been looking at Florida, 4 bedroom 3 bathroom villa own heated pool. pds 119.000. In a tourist zoned area. Yes it is zoned, some areas you can let out some you can't. But, value for money compared with Tenerife, it surely must be.
100% will never be achieved on a complex here
100% will never be achieved on a complex here
Absolutely correct which is why it will never happen, even with the best intentions
We couldn't get everyone to agree on installing a bring your own bottle water supply to put poolside to make the community 5-7k per year.....
willowlily
17-03-2012, 17:08
I really don't think the tourist chiefs/government have any idea at all how many tourists come to Tenerife. All they seem to judge things on is how many hotel beds are occupied.
Do they not wonder who are on all the Easyjet/Ryanair/Monarch flights? Where do they think all the thousands of swallows who arrive every winter for weeks at a time stay? Try booking an apartment for 6 - 8 weeks for next winter via a holiday company, you have no chance.
Interesting that although I dont think it was reported on here, JA did say their action group would also try to suggest ways for making some residential complexes touristic at the May moratorium meeting.
Everyone screams that residential means just that but I am sure the vast majority who bought on the newer complexes slap bang in the middle of tourist areas could well want their complex to change as most people bought on those with the intention of an investment return anyway. This would legalise all of that.
Obviously there would be problems to overcome, especially important that it would have to be a majority vote, there would be changes necessary to meet regulations etc but nothing that would be insurmountable in some cases. If all that criteria was met, why would anyone not be in favour?
i agree that the canarian government has no idea how many visitors arrive on the islands how could they, passports are not scanned entering or leaving as they do at all uk airports, many times they do not even look at it and wave you through. where and how would people think they get the numbers from
Tourist accommodation have to give statistical reports to the government monthly , I imagine airlines do too and that's where they get their stats
Red Devil
17-03-2012, 17:18
Muppet - how do you know that the majority of swallows own or long term let? You may well be hazarding a guess but it isnt a statement of fact.
Longer term lets are for 3 months or over, often that is longer than most people want to stay for. I know plenty who come every winter and rent for the period I have said - Odd that I know such a large number of a minority group.
Tourist accommodation have to give statistical reports to the government monthly , I imagine airlines do too and that's where they get their stats
I agree, but their figures cannot possibly tie up lol
Sundowner
17-03-2012, 17:53
I really don't think the tourist chiefs/government have any idea at all how many tourists come to Tenerife. All they seem to judge things on is how many hotel beds are occupied.
Do they not wonder who are on all the Easyjet/Ryanair/Monarch flights? Where do they think all the thousands of swallows who arrive every winter for weeks at a time stay? Try booking an apartment for 6 - 8 weeks for next winter via a holiday company, you have no chance.
Interesting that although I dont think it was reported on here, JA did say their action group would also try to suggest ways for making some residential complexes touristic at the May moratorium meeting.
Everyone screams that residential means just that but I am sure the vast majority who bought on the newer complexes slap bang in the middle of tourist areas could well want their complex to change as most people bought on those with the intention of an investment return anyway. This would legalise all of that.
Obviously there would be problems to overcome, especially important that it would have to be a majority vote, there would be changes necessary to meet regulations etc but nothing that would be insurmountable in some cases. If all that criteria was met, why would anyone not be in favour?
I think what she said was "Residents want residential properties to remain residential: So do we"
Santiago
17-03-2012, 18:10
Tourist accommodation have to give statistical reports to the government monthly , I imagine airlines do too and that's where they get their stats
Yes, but people staying in privately owned tourist accommodation are NOT declared and, as has been said before, numbers arriving by plane may be people returning to the island, or moving onwards to the other islands by ferry or inter-island planes.
Red Devil
17-03-2012, 18:13
Hope I am allowed to reproduce what she said , it was:
Q: Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make. We are not remotely trying to introduce or legalise tourism in residential complexes that do not want this. The aim is to quash threats, and it has to be said that those threats include some made by residents, e.g. insisting that only owners can use their own apartments.
That is different to what you have just said
golf birdie
17-03-2012, 18:24
I have yet to come across one swallow who stays 3+ months who has been given a contract for their stay.
bonitatime
17-03-2012, 18:56
Every person coming into Spain by plane has to register their details. From that the government can calculate many things.
Added after 2 minutes:
I have yet to come across one swallow who stays 3+ months who has been given a contract for their stay.
I dont know many seallows but those I know who rent have contracts.
Sundowner
17-03-2012, 18:59
Hope I am allowed to reproduce what she said , it was:
Q: Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make. We are not remotely trying to introduce or legalise tourism in residential complexes that do not want this. The aim is to quash threats, and it has to be said that those threats include some made by residents, e.g. insisting that only owners can use their own apartments.
That is different to what you have just said
Yes it is! And my apologies :sorry: I have not seen that post............but I have seen quite a few were she say's that she does think that residential should stay residential:dontknow:
Hope I am allowed to reproduce what she said , it was:
Q: Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make. We are not remotely trying to introduce or legalise tourism in residential complexes that do not want this. The aim is to quash threats, and it has to be said that those threats include some made by residents, e.g. insisting that only owners can use their own apartments.
That is different to what you have just said
So what is the association actually doing that is not already supported in the law?
"If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make"
So if they can't get 50%+1 of the apartments to want to let then they can't be touristic and remain residential .... Hmm I've heard that somewhere before.....
golf birdie
17-03-2012, 20:10
So what is the association actually doing that is not already supported in the law?
"If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make"
So if they can't get 50%+1 of the apartments to want to let then they can't be touristic and remain residential .... Hmm I've heard that somewhere before.....
I thought it needed to be 100% ?
It does if it's a new residential complex that has never had a license and whose statutes say RESIDENTIAL but since 100% agreement is needed to change the statutes it's safe to assume we're talking about older complexes that have become residential because theyve lost their license - AKA dormant touristic.
Tourist accommodation have to give statistical reports to the government monthly , I imagine airlines do too and that's where they get their stats
When did a government ever get its stats right they haven't a clue
welshman
17-03-2012, 21:12
I have log on regularly to the post to see whats going on the lobby group is up and running The island is built on tourists why not regulate it. Its not going away new 150000 tourist beds coming who,s going to buy!!! Living in cloud cocoo land in this day an age!! Stayed in Adeje for a few days AL cheap break Los Brezos food OK apartments a dive. Stayed at Dinastasia private 4 star Los Cristianos out every night local bars etc. Regulate these people pay taxes win win. As regards to Tom and Sharon I,m a proud Welshman you would be quite happy to exploit the riches of wales for you own ends but not for people exploit their own dreams of owning in Tenerife. Double standards.
Red Devil
17-03-2012, 21:44
It does if it's a new residential complex that has never had a license and whose statutes say RESIDENTIAL but since 100% agreement is needed to change the statutes it's safe to assume we're talking about older complexes that have become residential because theyve lost their license - AKA dormant touristic.
I have no idea what to assume, it isnt really clear but I didnt read it the same way that you have.
Tom & Sharon
17-03-2012, 21:45
I have log on regularly to the post to see whats going on the lobby group is up and running The island is built on tourists why not regulate it. Its not going away new 150000 tourist beds coming who,s going to buy!!! Living in cloud cocoo land in this day an age!! Stayed in Adeje for a few days AL cheap break Los Brezos food OK apartments a dive. Stayed at Dinastasia private 4 star Los Cristianos out every night local bars etc. Regulate these people pay taxes win win. As regards to Tom and Sharon I,m a proud Welshman you would be quite happy to exploit the riches of wales for you own ends but not for people exploit their own dreams of owning in Tenerife. Double standards.
It's not the same though. Holiday lettings in an residential apartment in Tenerife is Illegal, and a remote cottage in Snowdonia?
There's also no law against it to the best of my knowledge?
welshman
17-03-2012, 22:15
Like everything else there are winners and loosers thinking of the local youngsters trying to get on the property ladder with people from across the bridge exploiting a quick buck pushing up property prices to feather their own nest. Roll on independace Pliad Cymru for ever.
Didn't realize dinastia was 4 stars .... Thought you needed a license to have any...
Tom & Sharon
17-03-2012, 23:15
Like everything else there are winners and loosers thinking of the local youngsters trying to get on the property ladder with people from across the bridge exploiting a quick buck pushing up property prices to feather their own nest. [B]Roll on independace Pliad Cymru for ever.
If you're going to quote,get it right 'Plaid Cymru'
More like Meibion Glyndwr if you're honest!!!!!
Angusjim
18-03-2012, 10:53
So can some confirm is it illegal to do holiday lets on a residential complex :dontknow::lol::raspberry2:
So can some confirm is it illegal to do holiday lets on a residential complex :dontknow::lol::raspberry2:
Not in Portugal it's not. They have a special system there that Nelson told me about.
welshman
18-03-2012, 11:50
If you're going to quote,get it right 'Plaid Cymru'
More like Meibion Glyndwr if you're honest!!!!!
Glad your looking at moving to Southern England would hate to think that you would contamplate moving to beautiful area of West Wales Pembrokeshire like some of your type have done, and turn many communities it into a gost towns for the winter period.
Welsh and Proud stay other side of the boarder with your money or in Tenerife on you Residential complex without tourists.
Whats this got to do with illegal letting in Tenerife, stick to the point!
Glad your looking at moving to Southern England would hate to think that you would contamplate moving to beautiful area of West Wales Pembrokeshire like some of your type have done, and turn many communities it into a gost towns for the winter period.
Welsh and Proud stay other side of the boarder with your money or in Tenerife on you Residential complex without tourists.
Tom & Sharon
18-03-2012, 12:20
Glad your looking at moving to Southern England would hate to think that you would contamplate moving to beautiful area of West Wales Pembrokeshire like some of your type have done, and turn many communities it into a gost towns for the winter period.
Welsh and Proud stay other side of the boarder with your money or in Tenerife on you Residential complex without tourists.
I'll start another thread about buying in the UK or Tenerife as an investment so you can crawl from behind your flag of St David you illiterate bigoted halfwit!!!
Stay on topic.
Tom
Angusjim
18-03-2012, 12:31
I'll start another thread about buying in the UK or Tenerife as an investment so you can crawl from behind your flag of St David you illiterate bigoted halfwit!!!
Stay on topic.
Tom
Do I detect a hint of hostility here :whistle::fryingpan:
It is a great pity that people do not concentrate on giving opinions on the subject of the thread rather than being drawn into throwing unpleasant insults at each other. Banter and tongue in cheek comments are great and in the spirit of the forum but give each other some respect guys and stay on topic!
I'll start another thread about buying in the UK or Tenerife as an investment so you can crawl from behind your flag of St David you illiterate bigoted halfwit!!!
Stay on topic.
Tom
I hope my post will be moved to off topic very soon, but in reference to the thread by YG about which direction this forum is going, from the last few responses, it reinforces the downward spiral.
They are a disgrace, but unfortunately not isolated. No wonder fewer people are posting these days.
I hope my post will be moved to off topic very soon, but in reference to the thread by YG about which direction this forum is going, from the last few responses, it reinforces the downward spiral.
They are a disgrace, but unfortunately not isolated. No wonder fewer people are posting these days.
Hmm, I think you´ve posted enough insulting, barbed drivel in your time herslave. You´re hardly the finest example to be on here preaching about how to treat ones fellow forum members...!
Tom & Sharon
18-03-2012, 13:12
It is a great pity that people do not concentrate on giving opinions on the subject of the thread rather than being drawn into throwing unpleasant insults at each other. Banter and tongue in cheek comments are great and in the spirit of the forum but give each other some respect guys and stay on topic!
I think if you read between the lines of welshman's posts with regard to ourselves you'll find just a hint of a tad more than just Nationalism and pride!!
I have had some green leaf tea and my karma has returned :cool:
I will endeavour not to stoop so low again!!!
Right,back on topic please.
Tom:D
I'll start another thread about buying in the UK or Tenerife as an investment so you can crawl from behind your flag of St David you illiterate bigoted halfwit!!!
Stay on topic.
Tom Did I see a thread asking why fewer people were posting on this forum? Well, here you have the answer,a totally uncalled for abusive reply. If you can't hold an argument without becoming abusive,you shouldn't go there in the first place. Okay, before anybody comes back at me,if I have caused any offence in the past I always apologize.Now I try to keep my posts to information only!!!!!
Did I see a thread asking why fewer people were posting on this forum? Well, here you have the answer,a totally uncalled for abusive reply. If you can't hold an argument without becoming abusive,you shouldn't go there in the first place. Okay, before anybody comes back at me,if I have caused any offence in the past I always apologize.Now I try to keep my posts to information only!!!!!
SOrry written before I'd seen Tom's reply ,hugs for all.
welshman
18-03-2012, 21:52
Sorry to the spelling police but I can be excused as I was a little hung over from yesterday,s great win. Hope things sort themselves out for the best everyone involved residents and holiday lets. Will be in the Algave again this summer In our villa best of luck to everyone. No harm ment to anyone just like to get peoples back up now and again if they bite.
Tom you should look at west wales Tenby, Saundersfoot, good investment fantastic for summer Tenerife for winter. All the very best everyone Would like to invest in Tenerife but just not yet.
Tour operators also rent out on touristic apartment complexes like Paloma Beach and Cristian Sur , How does that work then? Through reception..... So the sole agent plus reception have the 50% plus 1 ?
I'll start another thread about buying in the UK or Tenerife as an investment so you can crawl from behind your flag of St David you illiterate bigoted halfwit!!!
Stay on topic.
Tom
good to see everyones made up over this. However all welshman pointed out was that there was a bit of a double standard in tom and sharon buying a tourist let in wales, while at the same time they argue against legalising small private letting in tenerife.
For some reason this enraged them and they could not themselves see the double standard in this.
I have suffered a lot of abuse on here, I would like to think that I have never responded in the same way to any of my many insulters. I have always prefered to continue to argue the case for legalising small renting , the rational argument wins out hands down. Many of my fellow posters who disagree with me tend to begin their posts with something like, " nelson you are a prat,fool,idiot etc. They then go on to continue in a more normal way with sometimes quite long posts and argue more rationally. Just seems odd that they have often begun with the silly playground insult.
Sometimes a group of them all seem to respond in unison, it seems like a proper playground bully gang event at that point.
It all makes for interesting psyco analysis of human behavior on here as well as the debate about letting.
Tom and sharon have had a go at me for bad grammar and spelling as well before now, wonder why they feel the need to bring that into the argument as well? its a form of bullying and ridicule, making fun or attacking poor spellers who cant do any better.
People are free to rant back if they want, I did not put up with bullies at school, they had a go, but on here I dont rise to their bait or respond in the same way, I think thats the best way to respond to them. They often seem the most insulting when they are losing the debate.
Good result for wales yesterday, my welsh ancestors from Aberyistwith the Jenkins, would have been pleased with that.
bonitatime
18-03-2012, 22:22
Tour operators also rent out on touristic apartment complexes like Paloma Beach and Cristian Sur , How does that work then? Through reception..... So the sole agent plus reception have the 50% plus 1 ?
Tour operators always rent through sole agents
Added after 6 minutes:
I have never seen anyone call you a Prat Nelson which post was this.
What ever is hoped for it seems clear that it is very unlikely that there will be any change in property zoned residential
Villas I hope will be able to change as this seems only fair and useful for the island.
As for property in Wales I wish Tom and Sharon luck if this is what they want
welshman
18-03-2012, 22:38
good to see everyones made up over this. However all welshman pointed out was that there was a bit of a double standard in tom and sharon buying a tourist let in wales, while at the same time they argue against legalising small private letting in tenerife.
For some reason this enraged them and they could not themselves see the double standard in this.
I have suffered a lot of abuse on here, I would like to think that I have never responded in the same way to any of my many insulters. I have always prefered to continue to argue the case for legalising small renting , the rational argument wins out hands down. Many of my fellow posters who disagree with me tend to begin their posts with something like, " nelson you are a prat,fool,idiot etc. They then go on to continue in a more normal way with sometimes quite long posts and argue more rationally. Just seems odd that they have often begun with the silly playground insult.
Sometimes a group of them all seem to respond in unison, it seems like a proper playground bully gang event at that point.
It all makes for interesting psyco analysis of human behavior on here as well as the debate about letting.
Tom and sharon have had a go at me for bad grammar and spelling as well before now, wonder why they feel the need to bring that into the argument as well? its a form of bullying and ridicule, making fun or attacking poor spellers who cant do any better.
People are free to rant back if they want, I did not put up with bullies at school, they had a go, but on here I dont rise to their bait or respond in the same way, I think thats the best way to respond to them. They often seem the most insulting when they are losing the debate.
Good result for wales yesterday, my welsh ancestors from Aberyistwith the Jenkins, would have been pleased with that.
Hi Nelson I,m glad someone saw the reason in my comments it was lost by some !!! but I wish you the best of luck and hope things are moving in the right direction the meeting when well on Thursday so i believe log on to Janet site. Best of luck for the future;)
zumba queen
19-03-2012, 02:06
Afer just having a break in our (residential) apt on El Mirador i would have to say it must be one of the most freindliest complexes on the island as every apt was taken up with "Family & Freinds" and not an inspector to be seen.
Owners are running scared on El Mirador. Most adverts have been removed/taken down and prices have taken a hit. I listed one of the best penthouses on the complex recently at 149,000€ (only a year ago this would have been closer to 200,000€) and it sold in three weeks to someone who thinks they will continue renting it out to holidaymakers.
The complex is ideal for tourists and would be perfect as an investment but unfortunately it is classed as residential meaning those who bought based on potential renal income now have to sell based on zero income so will need to swallow a sizeable loss from the top of the market prices.
If a buyer is happy with the current situation and still thinks they can rent it under the radar then thats up to them but they need to understand the risks and that this situation is not going to simply "fizzle out" in the near future.
zumba queen
19-03-2012, 03:01
Owners are running scared on El Mirador. Most adverts have been removed/taken down and prices have taken a hit. I listed one of the best penthouses on the complex recently at 149,000€ (only a year ago this would have been closer to 200,000€) and it sold in three weeks to someone who thinks they will continue renting it out to holidaymakers.
The complex is ideal for tourists and would be perfect as an investment but unfortunately it is classed as residential meaning those who bought based on potential renal income now have to sell based on zero income so will need to swallow a sizeable loss from the top of the market prices.
If a buyer is happy with the current situation and still thinks they can rent it under the radar then thats up to them but they need to understand the risks and that this situation is not going to simply "fizzle out" in the near future.
All very true but surely if you are buying on a residential complex you should not be contemplating holiday lets unless you have been badly advised or are just trying your luck and hoping to make a quick buck,also a lot of people can't afford to buy on legal complexes so they think that as a residential complex is about 20%+ cheaper it is an easy option.
All very true but surely if you are buying on a residential complex you should not be contemplating holiday lets unless you have been badly advised or are just trying your luck and hoping to make a quick buck,also a lot of people can't afford to buy on legal complexes so they think that as a residential complex is about 20%+ cheaper it is an easy option.
This is my point...
People are still buying because they are ignorant to whats going on with the clampdown and agents are not making their clients aware.
Plus, as in the case I had, the buyer simply does not care and thinks they can get away with it. Prices on El Mirador for example were based on a £250 per week rental income on average. Very nice if you can get 40 weeks per year. And people have bought based on these numbers.
Unfortunately for them they now have to sell based on £0 per week unless they wish to opt for a long let in which case they cant use the property themselves, the return on investment is paltry and they wind up with all their funds tied up in a residential property which is losing value.
You own on El Mirador, so whats your take on things and how do you feel about how this has affected your property?
This is my point...
People are still buying because they are ignorant to whats going on with the clampdown and agents are not making their clients aware.
Plus, as in the case I had, the buyer simply does not care and thinks they can get away with it. Prices on El Mirador for example were based on a £250 per week rental income on average. Very nice if you can get 40 weeks per year. And people have bought based on these numbers.
Unfortunately for them they now have to sell based on £0 per week unless they wish to opt for a long let in which case they cant use the property themselves, the return on investment is paltry and they wind up with all their funds tied up in a residential property which is losing value.
You own on El Mirador, so whats your take on things and how do you feel about how this has affected your property?
The problem is Cim, as you've said, your clients aren't ignorant because you clarify it but they still go ahead anyway! What more can you do?
And that's on a place where people have been caught and are facing large fines.
Try telling it to the people on Parque Margarita. I've tried and wasted my breath. Not least because for some strange reason they've never been looked into. They now all think that it doesn't affect them and it's passed them by. It does seem unfair that places like El Mirador have so many "victims" and others seem to be laughing all the way to the bank having never even had a visit. I guess it's just a case of luck, and when people see others getting away with it there's a good chance they'll be happy to risk it themselves.
Prices always drop after a Boom
Most properties 4 years ago were out priced anyway.
Wait til they get fined and are claiming they didn't know the law....
seanocelt
19-03-2012, 12:16
Here's one for you; i live on El Miador. The apt above me has tourists in it. When i asked them yesterday how they got it..........."the office in ( will not name it here but a well known LEGAL touristic complex) lets it out when they are full" !! Nice huh? Usual rule bending going on.
Here's one for you; i live on El Miador. The apt above me has tourists in it. When i asked them yesterday how they got it..........."the office in ( will not name it here but a well known LEGAL touristic complex) lets it out when they are full" !! Nice huh? Usual rule bending going on.
Huge risk for the person from ...... office, should they get notification it can be 10 fold the amount private owners have been fined.
Here's one for you; i live on El Miador. The apt above me has tourists in it. When i asked them yesterday how they got it..........."the office in ( will not name it here but a well known LEGAL touristic complex) lets it out when they are full" !! Nice huh? Usual rule bending going on.
Haha. Would be funny if it was loaded! Lol...
Lol the only places I recommend are royal palm, Cristian sur and failing that I just tell them to look at booking.com cos they're all legal.
There's no way i'd encourage illegal letting I'm not THAT hypocritical lol
Tour operators also rent out on touristic apartment complexes like Paloma Beach and Cristian Sur , How does that work then? Through reception..... So the sole agent plus reception have the 50% plus 1 ?
You give your apartment to them for exploitation they give you 4000 euro a year and let you use it for 4 weeks a year and they let it out to Thomas Cook ect a fantastic return for 160,000 euro investment!eek2: thats what exploited is certanaly the right term thankfully on our complex they will let you do your own lets as long as you register the apartment with them as they need to maintain there 50+1 to stay legal if not i would have sold up ages ago.David
hmmm, thats not entirely accurate David.... perhaps at Cristian sur but not Paloma Beach.
We let owners use it whenever they want for as long as they want, currently taking around 40 weeks per year giving the owners around 6500-7000 per year in income.
We work with travel agents and tour operaters and pay them a commission of between 10 and 20 percent. However more than 60% of the bookings come from our own website which we market well.
Maybe part of the problem is that some sole agents are lazy, farm them out to tour operators, fill em up quick and easy rather than putting the effort in and generating the business themselves.
Loaded Its accurate in my complex was not talking about yours in fact they offered me 3500 euros per year in 2004 more now. david
golf birdie
19-03-2012, 19:32
going back to laws does anyone know if the fenced in swimming pools is still an requirement.
Residential complexes: Lifeguard is required during the opening hours of the pool or it has to be fenced off.
Tourist complexes: need a lifeguard
junglejim
19-03-2012, 21:48
Residential complexes: Lifeguard is required during the opening hours of the pool or it has to be fenced off.
Tourist complexes: need a lifeguard
Interesting comment Loaded - do you have a reference for this rule ,as our President is insisting that having the pool fenced-in is sufficient according to the Inspector that visited our complex?
junglejim
19-03-2012, 22:28
which rule is it?
Artículo 34.- Socorrista.
1. A los efectos del presente Reglamento se entiende por socorrista el experto nadador, con conocimientos en las técnicas de salvamento acuático y de primeros auxilios, avalado por la certificación de haber realizado el curso establecido en el anexo 2, o por la titulación de formación específica que les exima de aquél.
2. Las piscinas de uso colectivo contarán al menos con la presencia de un socorrista durante el horario de funcionamiento.
3. Cuando la piscina presente vasos a distintas cotas que imposibilite la visión de todos ellos será obligatoria la presencia del número de socorristas necesario para poder ver todos los vasos.
4. Están exentas de la obligación de tener socorrista las piscinas ubicadas en edificaciones y construcciones de uso residencial no turístico, así como en establecimientos o complejos en los que se desarrolle actividad turística alojativa y cuya capacidad no exceda de 40 unidades alojativas. En cualquier caso, en los establecimientos y complejos alojativos turísticos no exentos de esta obligación, la misma deberá ser cumplida por los explotadores turísticos que asumirán la responsabilidad por su incumplimiento de conformidad con lo dispuesto en el artículo 44.
En los casos exentos del cumplimiento de la obligación de tener socorrista, los vasos estarán vallados de manera que sean inaccesibles para los menores no acompañados.
1636 - DECRETO 212/2005, de 15 de noviembre, por el que se aprueba el Reglamento sanitario de piscinas de uso colectivo de la Comunidad Autónoma de Canarias.
Added after 2 minutes:
I'm on my iPhone but run that through google translate particularly part 4 and the paragraph after
It is correct that a Residential complex can, according to the inspectors, choose between a fence and a life guard. However the law states that:
1. a residential complex is exempt from the obligation to have a lifeguard.
2. those complexes exempt from the obligation to have a lifeguard must have a fence.
Peterrayner
19-03-2012, 23:07
Article 34 – Lifeguards and Safety Fence Legal Requirements.
Communal pools should have a lifeguard present during the pool’s opening hours
If the pool has different levels, there should be enough lifeguards to allow all areas of the pool to be visible
Communal pools are exempt from this requirement if they are:-
1. located in a non-tourist residential area
2. located in a complex with less than 40 dwelling units
Tourist establishments and complexes are not exempt from this obligation and tour operators must comply and take responsibility for any breach under Article 44
*** In all cases where the pool is exempt from the obligation to have a lifeguard, the pool must be protected by a lockable fence to ensure that it is not accessible by unaccompanied minors.
The legal minimum height requirement for safety fencing around Communal Swimming Pools is 1.2m
Added after 4 minutes:
Supplied by our administrators some 2 years ago when we fenced in the pool on our residential complex
Article 34 – Lifeguards and Safety Fence Legal Requirements.
Communal pools should have a lifeguard present during the pool’s opening hours
If the pool has different levels, there should be enough lifeguards to allow all areas of the pool to be visible
Communal pools are exempt from this requirement if they are:-
1. located in a non-tourist residential area
2. located in a complex with less than 40 dwelling units
Tourist establishments and complexes are not exempt from this obligation and tour operators must comply and take responsibility for any breach under Article 44
*** In all cases where the pool is exempt from the obligation to have a lifeguard, the pool must be protected by a lockable fence to ensure that it is not accessible by unaccompanied minors.
The legal minimum height requirement for safety fencing around Communal Swimming Pools is 1.2m
junglejim
19-03-2012, 23:19
Thanks all for input - more problems for our President and the truth it would appear !
As a complex trying to recover out touristic licence ,the costs are mounting up !!
I hope those people wishing to continue renting are prepared to meet these costs !
I trust there are enough Soccoristas in Spain to help comply with these rules ?
Don´t see many about on Adeje Beach !
There are certainly enough lifeguards , even I did the course!
Better for the community as a whole to pay for it, there's always some who "don't let"....
Do the touristic laws state that a reception be staffed 24 hours a day
Not in so many words but yes
I was asked today a question that I cannot answer, so thought I would post here to get this verified.
If someone has privately rented a holiday apartment (through family friend) in a residential complex, do they then need to pay for sunbeds round the pool area? and if there is no lifeguard, then who (if anyone) do they pay?
Well above all the most illegal thing is renting the apartment on a residential complex....
Sun beds cam be charged for depending on each complexes policy
Tom & Sharon
20-03-2012, 09:30
I know for a fact these haven't got a lifeguard, and that the administrator has told the owners they don't have to have one because it's fenced off. That's the reason I thought it must really be residential, but the administrator is insisting it's a touristic aparthotel?
How would that leave Easyjet, and the owners if a child drowned in the pool?
http://holidays.easyjet.com/spain/tenerife/golf-del-sur/36/el-nautico-suites.htm
This thread just gave me a thought. I have had an evil neighbour(well Austrian actually) on the rock for many years. TBF when we previously rented our villa he made an issue of it even though we as stand alone Villas could hardly intrude much on each other, but after this issue being highlighted while I dont see his point so much I now understand its not allowed. In fairness after owning for ten years I was blissfully unaware of the potential consequences until the last year.
What I find ironic is we no longer do this but our neighbour who was resident for many years has disappeared with the most common belief he was in financial turmoil. He however has started renting his villa out to tourists, There is always a cicar rental car outside (different ones though) so its tourists. I have found out where he advertises also.
In fairness its not a problem I hardly see anyone when over but its the principal that does my head in. We were at loggerheads with him for years although I am sure we never had anyone cause offence but it was probably his fondness for walking around nude that prompted his complaints (small willie syndrom?). We even ended up in court v him and his partner as he built the wall between our properties to a height of over six feet taking away our view where it had been three feet on our side with a further three foot drop on his side so now it was about 9-10 feet on his side, he took everyones views with his actions and all the other neighbours are German but they dislike him even more so its not just me.
I would love to shop him but wont cos me being me I would need to knock on his door and tell him my intent and I wouldnt do it on the sly, alas he is no longer on Tenerife but the irony is not lost on me as he is now doing what he objected to us doing wheras we now dont do it.
The court issue re the wall? well we had an entorage visit inc judge (female) and this judge after we had gone back to the court in los Cristianos finally gave a decision but not after he had about a hundred German speaking witnesses speak on his behalf. There was so many I expected to see Boris Becker.
The decision???? 9 page ruling detailing everything and 100% in our favour. He was to take down the wall and pay all our costs. What then happened? he appealed to Santa Cruz and in about three sentences the judge (male) reversed the decision and we were left not only with the wall but his costs.
Tenerife? you couldnt make it up and I havent even mentioned the word corrupt:whistle:
Some important info. from Janet ******** about the New Association (Janet is one of the five founding members):
There was a committee meeting of the founding members of ALOTCA yesterday, and I can report the following points.
As I’ve previously posted, the first appeal of the fines resulted in a €3,000 reduction; the second appeal received a 15 page letter essentially saying that all argument was irrelevant and pointless, and that the problems resulting from Turismo’s actions were neither their fault nor responsibility. Now, a third appeal to complete the first stage of appeals has been presented, this time to the President of the Canarian Government, Paulino Rivero, himself. A meeting is also being sought with the President to press the points of this appeal in person. Evidently depending on the President’s response to this third appeal, any next stage will involve appeal to the Courts.
I will update on the appeal to, and meeting with, the President as soon as I have the information, but unless he gives a positive response, then those with fines will need to decide if they wish to carry on with legal action to the Courts stage. If they do, they will need to contact their lawyer to give Power of Attorney if they have not already done so. There will be new fees payable to the lawyers at this point, and at present it is impossible to say what those fees will be. Negotiations are already underway with a Procurador (the equivalent of a barrister required for procedures over a certain value) with a view to forming a class action. I’ll update on this too as soon as I have information.
Regardless of the above, some of the earliest appeals have now expired, the process having exceeded the six months within which they had to be concluded. Some of those with fines have received letters to this effect. The lawyers are seeking certificates of expiry for other fines of the same batch where letters have not been received. They stress, however, that Turismo has confirmed the Government’s intention to check up on those who have received a now expired fine to see if they are continuing to advertise. If they are, then they will be fined again and a second fine will be at the higher level of around €30,000. The expiry of the first fine procedure does not eradicate it, but just means it has to be archived. To be clear: anyone in this batch with either a letter or certificate of expiry will not have to pay the fine. The fine stays on record, however, so that a second fine will be of the higher amount.
There is confusion, it appears, at Cabildo level regarding complexes defined as “dormant touristic”. A recent meeting resulted in clarity in that sense at least, if no other. Further meetings will shortly take place to determine specifically whether such complexes require 50+1% or 100% community agreement to revert to touristic status.
With regard to the petition, it is now clear that when we are ready to launch it, those who may sign are specifically Canarian “residents”. This restriction applies to Spanish as well as other EU nationals. This is “resident” in the wider sense, so not fiscally resident, but those with both a Certificado de Registro and on the padron, i.e. either with or able to acquire a Certificado de Empadronamiento.
Is this group trying to get the fines removed all together or lower them again?
Hmmmm I don't think there's confusion about dormant touristic... What we have to remember is that it is a term coined by us.... The cabildo do not recognize it, they only recognize touristic or not.
A Complex that we consider "dormant" is one who had a sole agent license holder who has since
Vanished leaving the complex with a tourist license but no active sole agent.
The cabildo still recognize the complex as having a sole agent and active tourist license.
To regain control , it is my understanding that to CHANGE THE LICENSE HOLDER will need only
50%+1 so long as 100% was not required by the previous license holder.
If the Question is asked to cabildo as per above i believe a satisfactory answer will be given .... However if variations are asked such as :
If a complex that had a license but lost it wants to regain it's license then what percentage are needed ?
The answer is 100%.
Remember that the cabildo don't know which license holders are no longer around, as far as they're concerned the complexes we call "dormant" are still active.... As long as they think this is the case there is a chance they can CHANGE LICENSE HOLDER.
Is this group trying to get the fines removed all together or lower them again?
i think that the aim is a consensual solution, getting all the fines removed and small letting legalised by payment of an annual permit to the canary government. the aim of the group isto get small private letting legalised and to have this important part of the canary tourist offering continue to assist the canart economy as it has done for many years.
Like the Portuguese model???
i think that the aim is a consensual solution, getting all the fines removed and small letting legalised by payment of an annual permit to the canary government. the aim of the group isto get small private letting legalised and to have this important part of the canary tourist offering continue to assist the canart economy as it has done for many years.
As far as I understand, the aims of the Association do NOT include seeking the legalising of holiday letting on Residential Complexes.
and it would lose all credibility if it were !
Even the EU would allow fines for advertising/letting on residential stand - Human Rights laws etc...
Like the Portuguese model???
yes definitley like portugal, also uk,ireland.france,italy,belgium,holland, norway, in fact most places around the globe where to let a property in a tourist zone to tourists would not be prevented by a protectionist daft law.
the association is having to tell the canary government that their emporer is in fact in the altogether and he has no clothes whatsoever. lets hope common sense and reason can prevail , it is the case all around the world on this issue. It should never have come to this situation in the first place.
cainaries
29-03-2012, 22:17
and it would lose all credibility if it were !
Even the EU would allow fines for advertising/letting on residential stand - Human Rights laws etc...
Out of idle curiousity, how would advertising a holiday let contravene someone's human rights? I may be wrong but I don't think the human rights laws distinguish between 'residential' and 'touristic' accommodation. Yes, there is a convention about enjoying your property in peace but I suspect this relates to not being arrested for no reason by a totalitarian government rather than relating to whether or not your neighbours are a bit noisy. Awaiting comments!
yes definitley like portugal, also uk,ireland.france,italy,belgium,holland, norway, in fact most places around the globe where to let a property in a tourist zone to tourists would not be prevented by a protectionist daft law.
the association is having to tell the canary government that their emporer is in fact in the altogether and he has no clothes whatsoever. lets hope common sense and reason can prevail , it is the case all around the world on this issue. It should never have come to this situation in the first place.
Are you hoping that it will be made legal (via a licence or some other type of authorization) that people will be able to rent out their villas or apartments on a residential complex that has never had a tourist license but is placed in a tourist area as you see it?
As far as I understand, the aims of the Association do NOT include seeking the legalising of holiday letting on Residential Complexes. Just as well as they would be wastng their time.
Are you hoping that it will be made legal (via a licence or some other type of authorization) that people will be able to rent out their villas or apartments on a residential complex that has never had a tourist license but is placed in a tourist area as you see it?
me personally, well we are dormant touristic, we would not have bought without touristic in the first place, even though we have never had a sole agent.So for us legal on touristic with an annual permit to pay is job done.
However I feel that the canary economy does need the likes of el mirador to keep going well. Maybe the association is not campaigning for them to be legal, but give it time, the state of the spanish economy is no place for kerbing economic growth at the moment. Los cristo would suffer , well lets face it is going to suffer this summer with all those el mirador guests not coming due to pulled internet adverts.
I think that given the economic crisis the canary government is going to wake up to the mess over letting, and reform may well end up involving so called residential sites in tourist zones. Many of these have been sucesfully letting for many years, eg several of the residential santiagos etc.
Spain needs jobs urgently not riots,
me personally, well we are dormant touristic, we would not have bought without touristic in the first place, even though we have never had a sole agent.So for us legal on touristic with an annual permit to pay is job done.
However I feel that the canary economy does need the likes of el mirador to keep going well. Maybe the association is not campaigning for them to be legal, but give it time, the state of the spanish economy is no place for kerbing economic growth at the moment. Los cristo would suffer , well lets face it is going to suffer this summer with all those el mirador guests not coming due to pulled internet adverts.
I think that given the economic crisis the canary government is going to wake up to the mess over letting, and reform may well end up involving so called residential sites in tourist zones. Many of these have been sucesfully letting for many years, eg several of the residential santiagos etc.
Spain needs jobs urgently not riots,
I can get you legal with an annual permit , all you need to do is gather 50%+1 of the owners , appoint a sole agent who will let you do as you wish, raise standards in line with decreto 142/2010 and away we go !
Out of idle curiousity, how would advertising a holiday let contravene someone's human rights? I may be wrong but I don't think the human rights laws distinguish between 'residential' and 'touristic' accommodation. Yes, there is a convention about enjoying your property in peace but I suspect this relates to not being arrested for no reason by a totalitarian government rather than relating to whether or not your neighbours are a bit noisy. Awaiting comments!
If this situation were to find it's way back to the European courts, as some would like, a court would do what it should - look at all aspects and all arguments for and against.
In this country there is an established distinction between types of complexes. Licences are granted to some establishments (via agents) for short term letting provided they have the necessary infra-structure deemed to be required and necessary. Equally though, because there is an established choice, the arguments against the letting of complexes deemed to be Residential significantly strengthen arguments of being allowed to enjoy your home and live in peace.
I can get you legal with an annual permit , all you need to do is gather 50%+1 of the owners , appoint a sole agent who will let you do as you wish, raise standards in line with decreto 142/2010 and away we go !
This should be given serious consideration.
I know Nelson would prefer not to pay a sole agent but surely if it means the difference between legal / illegal then it would allow the owners to still get a legal income and of course there's no reason why they can't campaign for whatever model they want in place as the battle rages on. I know what I'd rather do!
carolethatch
30-03-2012, 10:18
So if I'm reading Doreen's post correctly, if you were one of the first to be fined, and the six months have passed, and you don't rent again, you will not pay the fine. So as time is passing each fine comes nearer to their six months, could mean not many will end up paying anything.
So if I'm reading Doreen's post correctly, if you were one of the first to be fined, and the six months have passed, and you don't rent again, you will not pay the fine. So as time is passing each fine comes nearer to their six months, could mean not many will end up paying anything.
Janet's words ... and yes, it does seem many will not end up paying: hopefully, they will be sensible and not risk a further fine, which could be up to 30,000 euros
Poor old Paulino - gonna be livid to see all this potential dosh slipping through his fingers ...
Seriously though, I just wouldn't trust them. Let it be for a few months, let the original letters slip back onto the net and then bang 'em with fine number 2 - sounds Canarian!
Poor old Paulino - gonna be livid to see all this potential dosh slipping through his fingers ...
Seriously though, I just wouldn't trust them. Let it be for a few months, let the original letters slip back onto the net and then bang 'em with fine number 2 - sounds Canarian! The next time round they will be fined for not having the "libro de reclamaciones" and not displaying the book that they don't have.They know that they can make a case for this in court.
This should be given serious consideration.
I know Nelson would prefer not to pay a sole agent but surely if it means the difference between legal / illegal then it would allow the owners to still get a legal income and of course there's no reason why they can't campaign for whatever model they want in place as the battle rages on. I know what I'd rather do!
He wouldn't need to pay the sole agent an annual fee. Costs nothing to register tourist aparments
Janet's words ... and yes, it does seem many will not end up paying: hopefully, they will be sensible and not risk a further fine, which could be up to 30,000 euros
I can see a potential banana skin for the government here. The first argument of the accused will be "why me and not my next door neighbour". Both caught for the same crime. One forced to pay, the other let off. A good lawyer would be screaming victimisation, and by the look of it, he'd be right!
It could end up costing more than it rakes in...
Good to see that it is possible to have a discussion about this important issue on this form :respect:. On the other forum it has changed to an "information" thread:angry:.
As far as I understand, the aims of the Association do NOT include seeking the legalising of holiday letting on Residential Complexes.
I am not so sure about that. What is said by Janet, (and I quote):
Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make. [/QUOTE]
So it is clear that for the association the ideal situation is that a residential complex could become a touristic complex. I imagine that, as this is for the association the ideal situation, this would be one of their goals???.
Good to see that it is possible to have a discussion about this important issue on this form :respect:. On the other forum it has changed to an "information" thread:angry:
I am not so sure about that. What is said by Janet, (and I quote):
Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make.
So it is clear that for the association the ideal situation is that a residential complex could become a touristic complex. I imagine that, as this is for the association the ideal situation, this would be one of their goals???.
We don't as yet have a statement of the aims of the Association and it is something that needs to be clarified before any petition is offered for signature :)
junglejim
30-03-2012, 14:28
I understand that Konrad (Roberto) as the agency that runs the Panorama has issued an ultimatum to the individual owners who let their apartments privately.
After May they must give him the sole right of letting and cleaning and they can have 4 weeks for themselves , they will receive around €14 per night for the privilege of allowing him to use their substantial investment for his benefit .
People who continue to rent privately will be denounced - this is the same company who used to be in our complex and abused us all ways possible with dodgy financial dealings , we are well rid of him.
This Sole Letting Law allows people like him to literally exploit investors and should be abolished -he is nothing but a parasite .
Leam_Lin
30-03-2012, 14:34
Thanks JJ. I am unable to send PM's,
i think that the aim is a consensual solution, getting all the fines removed and small letting legalised by payment of an annual permit to the canary government. the aim of the group isto get small private letting legalised and to have this important part of the canary tourist offering continue to assist the canart economy as it has done for many years.
Thats your own wishes and i guess you were not at the meeting then
Added after 2 minutes:
Originally Posted by nelson
i think that the aim is a consensual solution, getting all the fines removed and small letting legalised by payment of an annual permit to the canary government. the aim of the group isto get small private letting legalised and to have this important part of the canary tourist offering continue to assist the canart economy as it has done for many years.
As far as I understand, the aims of the Association do NOT include seeking the legalising of holiday letting on Residential Complexes.
Thats was mentioned a few times in the meeting that residential will stay just as it is and they wouldn't be looking to change that.
Peterrayner
30-03-2012, 15:05
Good to see that it is possible to have a discussion about this important issue on this form :respect:. On the other forum it has changed to an "information" thread:angry:.
I am not so sure about that. What is said by Janet, (and I quote):
Do residents need to fear that the association seeks to allow tourism on their complexes?
A: Many residential complexes want to introduce touristic lets, and if they do not, then the law supports them. Ideally, in our view, residential complexes should be allowed to decide for themselves. If the majority of owners in a residential complex do or do not want tourism in their complex then we feel that this is their decision to make.
So it is clear that for the association the ideal situation is that a residential complex could become a touristic complex. I imagine that, as this is for the association the ideal situation, this would be one of their goals???.[/QUOTE]
Well we might have an arguement now :(
If you had bothered to attend the first meeting you would know that I asked this very question and it was answered very clearly.
IMHO you have totally misrepresenting the actual statment which you quote.
This clearly states that that as far has the association is concerned the question of short term letting 0m residential sites is for the residents community to decide and it even qualifies this by stating " that this is there decision to make"
They have also stated clearly that they do not intend to lobby for any changes to the current situation vis a vis residential complexes.
I attended the first meeting. I suppose you mean the second meeting?
I am not sure but I believe that I do understand this quite well. The ideal situation is that it is up to the residents, and by a majority vote, to decide that touristic letting is allowed on a residential complex, If that is the case than this would be an enormous change as this is at this moment not possible.
I attended the first meeting. I suppose you mean the second meeting?
I am not sure but I believe that I do understand this quite well. The ideal situation is that it is up to the residents, and by a majority vote, to decide that touristic letting is allowed on a residential complex, If that is the case than this would be an enormous change as this is at this moment not possible.
To be honest, I think we are splitting hairs until we have a formal statement from the Association - at the moment 100% of owners on a Residential Complex have to vote for such a change and we all know that is really not possible to achieve ... I cannot see that the Association are going to propose that be changed to 51% or 75% or whatever.
Going back to JungleJim's comments - certainly there is a problem when the Sole Agent is not as fair/reasonable as our two esteemed members, Loaded & Oasis .... it will be interesting to see if the Association propose taking up this point (and I am sure I can hear Janet in the background saying - tell them to join the Association and put forward their views :) )
What steps did the owners on Los Geranois take to move the agency on from there Jungle Jim?
Sounds like more communities need to be fully aware of how to do this quickly if they are faced with an unscrupulous/unfair agent taking advantage of their position.
This is DEFINITELY something the Association needs to address as well...!
Peterrayner
30-03-2012, 16:31
I attended the first meeting. I suppose you mean the second meeting?
I am not sure but I believe that I do understand this quite well. The ideal situation is that it is up to the residents, and by a majority vote, to decide that touristic letting is allowed on a residential complex, If that is the case than this would be an enormous change as this is at this moment not possible.
IIRC correctly this recent meeting was the "first" PUBLIC meeting but as Doreen states perhaps we are splitting hairs.
My information is that on most recent new residential developments it would appear that the statutes state a 100% absolute majority would be needed to change the status of the complex. I believe that the 50+1% is the majority needed to appoint or change a sole agency ?
I do not believe that the association intends to lobby for any changes to the arrangments concerning residential complexes but that they may well perhaps consider including some proposals to revise the current arrangments for agncies operating on touristic sites to give greater protection to owners who are not so fortunate as others.
Personally I would like to see some clarification in the laws as to my rights to invite (genuine)family and friends to stay in my private property.
IIRC correctly this recent meeting was the "first" PUBLIC meeting but as Doreen states perhaps we are splitting hairs.
My information is that on most recent new residential developments it would appear that the statutes state a 100% absolute majority would be needed to change the status of the complex. I believe that the 50+1% is the majority needed to appoint or change a sole agency ?
I do not believe that the association intends to lobby for any changes to the arrangments concerning residential complexes but that they may well perhaps consider including some proposals to revise the current arrangments for agncies operating on touristic sites to give greater protection to owners who are not so fortunate as others.
Personally I would like to see some clarification in the laws as to my rights to invite (genuine)family and friends to stay in my private property.
If the 100% were to be achieved the complex could apply to cabildo for the change of status, this would only be an application that would still have to be approved.
50% + 1 is the figure to change the sole agent, however this is 50% + 1 of apartments that have to make the signed application to cabildo not just a vote at a general meeting. should this figure be achieved the new sole letting agent would be approved.
junglejim
30-03-2012, 16:49
[QUOTE=CIM;160637]What steps did the owners on Los Geranois take to move the agency on from there Jungle Jim?
Sounds like more communities need to be fully aware of how to do this quickly if they are faced with an unscrupulous/unfair agent taking advantage of their position.
This is DEFINITELY something the Association needs to address as well...![/QUOTE
Konrad through time lost his majority on the complex as some lease back properties reverted to their owners .
He then faced opposition from the majority of owners because they now have control of the complex , so he chose to sell off the apartments he owned ( now has about 5 plus reception and restaurant). He was technically operating illegally for a while as he did not have majority but since he gave up the Hotel side he has relinquished the licence , hence we are looking at re-activating it with our own agency .
Just watch what happens in Panorama & Club Atlantis ....
This will be a difficult task as there does not appear to be a clear route ,we do have 100% vote from recent EGM to carry on.
A lot of us want assurances on how this agency will operate- we have a great chance to get a fair system in place!
See apartments are advertised on Facebook!
http://apps.facebook.com/marketplace/housing/rent/?cm_mmc=Newsletter_Facebook-_-120330314f52c897a4ebf8d89e3dd40213a1f8-_-WelcomeBlockApartments-_-518682214&rfb_domain=facebook-spain.oodle.com
junglejim
30-03-2012, 16:59
See apartments are advertised on Facebook!
http://apps.facebook.com/marketplace/housing/rent/?cm_mmc=Newsletter_Facebook-_-120330314f52c897a4ebf8d89e3dd40213a1f8-_-WelcomeBlockApartments-_-518682214&rfb_domain=facebook-spain.oodle.com
Don´t want to use this app as it will change my Facebook to Timeline format which is mince!
Don´t want to use this app as it will change my Facebook to Timeline format which is mince!
Well that changes automatically on April the 4th
@Doreen : I have been in direct contact with Janet and expressed my views on the situation as it stands. I have offered my advice on how to get owners on "dormant touristic" legal.... I have also told her that I am up for being directly involved in helping them and also in setting up the sole agency. Obviously I would gain financially from that but the owners would too and they'd be legal. This also takes away the complaint about being paid 14€ per day and having only 4 weeks use - as my policy is and always will be that the apartment can be used as much or little by the owner as the owner wants, and the owner would get a darn site more than 14€ per day as You know being an owner of several apartments on Paloma Beach.
What people need to be careful of is "complaining themselves into a corner"... There is a way out for owners but it means theyve got to answer to someone other than themselves - if they can get over that then they're away.
Angusjim
01-04-2012, 12:49
I understand that Konrad (Roberto) as the agency that runs the Panorama has issued an ultimatum to the individual owners who let their apartments privately.
After May they must give him the sole right of letting and cleaning and they can have 4 weeks for themselves , they will receive around €14 per night for the privilege of allowing him to use their substantial investment for his benefit .
People who continue to rent privately will be denounced - this is the same company who used to be in our complex and abused us all ways possible with dodgy financial dealings , we are well rid of him.
This Sole Letting Law allows people like him to literally exploit investors and should be abolished -he is nothing but a parasite .
This post just highlights the problem wth sole agents for every good one like Loaded & Oasis there will be many like this one. The government must bring in regulations to police this industry and what can owners do if the sole agent already holds the 50% + 1 without the need for any other owners I assume they can basically do what they want ?
There's already things owners can do; collectively sign up to a new
Agent perhaps? If things are that bad surely it's worth exploring ?
I´ll maybe have a chat with you about this sometime Loaded as there´s a couple of complexes where agents are just completely taking the ****!
Would be nice to have some concrete options to either reach a fair compromise or get someone better (fairer) in to run things.
Leam_Lin
01-04-2012, 20:00
There's already things owners can do; collectively sign up to a new
Agent perhaps? If things are that bad surely it's worth exploring ?
I am unable to send PM's, can you PM me with your email address.
Thanks.
Angusjim
02-04-2012, 13:14
There's already things owners can do; collectively sign up to a new
Agent perhaps? If things are that bad surely it's worth exploring ?
Probably it is worth exploring but all sole agents should be regulated to ensure the owners have some form of protection in law and maybe the licence for having the sole agent rights on a complex should be up for renewal every year or every couple of years giving owners an easy option to change agents if they are not happy with their performance. Can you confirm position as I asked above about where sole agents have the 50% +1 without any other owners can they basically make up the rules to suit themselves ?
I dont undertand the question, can you re word it?
Angusjim
02-04-2012, 13:33
I dont undertand the question, can you re word it?
If the sole agent also owns 50%+1 of the apartments can they basically make up the rules to suit themselves ?
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