View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
But that is the point. Many of the illegal letters are paying nothing into the system
Agree illegal letters who do not pay taxes in Spain or UK are scum
Iam quite sure that the dust will settle and the Canarian Government will allow any lettings in the Islands wether they be tourist or residential.With the Spanish being in the same way as the rest of the EU they cannot afford to loose any money.So to anybody that wants to make cash,carry on or otherwise Tenerife and the rest of Spain will have lost their main source of income.
it would be wonderful for the canary economy if the canary government were to halt its crazy attack on private tourist letting , and were to allow this important tourist industry to continue , for tourist and residential apartments. There is no doubt that every single apartment should be full of customers if possible and that this would be highly desirable for the good of the entire canary economy. But the reality is that the protectionist attack started by the canary government is some way off being defeated. Alotca has been told about some reforms to sole agency and dormant touristic complex's are to be helped to get back their licences, but beyond that there is to be no letting on the residential sites. Therefore many years of normal renting is going to have to stop and many thousands and thousands of visitors are not going to be coming to the canaries this summer as the private apartments are now not renting and not advertising on the internet.
I have no doubt myself that this insane situation will be changed in time, but as things stand the canary government have not yet faced up to the terible reality of what they have engineered. The canary politicions have a terrible responsibility for the damage they have done to their economy at this time, and the human cost that this self inflicted downturn puts on the canary people.
Sorry can't see it being changed, the moratorium is there because they've got too many legal tourist beds already - so this stops the market getting spread too thin.... Why would they suddenly change And allow a load of residential complexes to register single units when the moratorium is already stopping new builds ? Surely if they lifted the moratorium they would then allow construction of new tourist complexes rather than allowing private owners to register? This would stimulate the construction industry and real estate industry while giving the tourist another choice .
Originally Posted by Muppet
Clue is in post on previous page
Are you referring to a report of a meeting by someone called Janet on another website?
I've read through it and I don't see anywhere where Ricardo de la Puente says there will be no change to the law regarding residential villas in the Canaries. Can you point it out?
Thanks
Hugh
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Originally Posted by Nelson
I have no doubt myself that this insane situation will be changed in time, but as things stand the canary government have not yet faced up to the terible reality of what they have engineered. The canary politicions have a terrible responsibility for the damage they have done to their economy at this time, and the human cost that this self inflicted downturn puts on the canary people.
As I've asked before, do you really think these people are numpties? That the only people who understand the consequences of stopping lettings in residential properties in the Canaries are a few names on a forum?
Please give them a bit more credit. They know exactly what they are doing, and it's not what is being portrayed on here and elsewhere.
Sorry can't see it being changed, the moratorium is there because they've got too many legal tourist beds already - so this stops the market getting spread too thin.... Why would they suddenly change And allow a load of residential complexes to register single units when the moratorium is already stopping new builds ? Surely if they lifted the moratorium they would then allow construction of new tourist complexes rather than allowing private owners to register? This would stimulate the construction industry and real estate industry while giving the tourist another choice .
thats sort of where we are right now. Much of the problem is down to government trying to regulate the industry, protectionism. The moratorium on new tourist building, other than 5 star, was clearly put in place to try to ensure the existing tourist legal acomodation was full enough. The problem is that over the past 15 years the residential letting apartments brought many thousands of guests to the canaries and so the economy grew. All these many thousands of extra guests spent money in retuarants ,bars and shops, they went on excursions and had days out in water parks. This was seen as helpfull to the economy and the canary people as the legal accomodations were also busy enough. Only with the crisis of 2008 and the severe downturn have the hotels and the government decided to turn on the apartments, clearly they were panicking and wanted to try to get these apartment customers into their hotels.
The more the canary government trys to plan and control its econmy, the worse the situation will become. free markets work best and consumers are entitled to their free choice of holiday style and accomodation. For any government to meddle in protectionist thinking is a very bad prospect for economic growth and development. The canary government wants to have its cake and eat it, allow free trade in boom times , then it wants to play protectionism when times are hard. We will have to wait and see what the canary government decides to do about this issue as their economy gets worse in the weeks ahead. they need every internet advert that they used to have working to fill planes and bring them guests, and every available apartment bed ready to accomodate them. Their vision of 5 star tourists at this desperate world wide economic time is just like what Marie Antonette said to the french poor all those years ago. If they have no bread let them eat cake ! Though this attitude is a tradegy for the canarian economy and people, you may be right , they may continue to say this for some time to come.
Red Devil
13-06-2012, 10:08
[QUOTE=Hughsyb;187096]Are you referring to a report of a meeting by someone called Janet on another website?
I've read through it and I don't see anywhere where Ricardo de la Puente says there will be no change to the law regarding residential villas in the Canaries. Can
you point it out?
It is referred to in an oblique way in this, which is from Janets website and which I hope I can copy onto here?
"Alotca update on illegal letting meeting with Canarian Government viceconsejero de Turismo
Published 8 June 2012.Alotca has had a meeting with Ricardo de la Puente, the viceconsejero de Turismo in the Canarian Government, the head, in other words, of the tourism department in the Canaries. I can update as follows.
We have not been granted an audience with the President himself not least because he will not intervene in the running of Turismo and considers the viceconsejero completely in control of the department. Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that uncontrolled letting is not a part of that model. As such, there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes – which Alotca was not lobbying for, nor of independent villas – for which we were lobbying.
There is, however, to be new legislation to amend the law in at least two respects: the first is with regard to touristic complexes, and the second to villas on complexes that are currently residential. The new law is to be open for proposals to be submitted in around two months or so, and so at the moment its final form is unknown. What is clear, however, is that the sole agent system is to be changed in some ways, with a new concept of a “condominium” coming into play alongside a type of shares system in the running of touristic complexes. As part of these changes, complexes that are often called “dormant” will be permitted to resuscitate their licences. Also, villas on complexes that are currently residential, but whose land is or can be designated touristic, will be allowed to apply for touristic licences.
As far as Alotca is concerned, once the law is opened for proposals, we will be submitting for further changes, particularly with regard to independent villas. We have to recognize, however, that Turismo is effectively closed to such suggestions. The Canarian Government’s model for tourism, as I said above that Sr de la Puente made clear, does not include any such vision. As such, we have decided to shelve the idea of a petition: it has been made abundantly clear to us that the law will not change beyond the extent already outlined, and so it is on the one hand pointless lobbying for changes we have been categorically told will not be considered, and on the other hand, some of the changes we were lobbying for have already been granted.
I am not trying to imply that Alotca has won these changes single handedly, but it became very clear in the meeting that our actions so far have played a clear role in making the Government change its stance, however slightly. Instead of a petition, therefore, we feel that the better way forward is to go to the European Court itself, and the lawyers are currently investigating the possibilities in this regard.
With respect to appeals outstanding, many have expired through exceeding the six month period within which the Government had to complete the process. This is in no small part because of the extensive and expansive nature of the appeals submitted at each stage, which have tied up the process and consumed the time available for the Government. Those which are still ongoing, and which the Government does finalise within six months may then be appealed in the Courts, but the lawyers are now in no doubt at all that the Courts will not overturn the fines: the best that can be achieved is a minimisation of the fines to €1,500, the lowest amount for the “grave” category that the fines are in. For those who find themselves in that position, the lawyers estimate that the costs involved will be around €1,000, which comprises a similar fee to the first appeals plus an extra fee for the barrister that is required to appear in Court.
Although it is worth appealing to try for that reduction, any such judgment will not achieve the overturning of the law itself: the Courts must judge within the legislation as it stands, and that will not change with regard to the “offence”, nor the fines. This is why the lawyers consider the next stage must be examination of the possibilities of an appeal to the European Court. We feel that in some respects we have failed, but in others we have had successes. As I said above, we are not trying to imply that Alotca has won these changes alone, but our asociación has had a clear impact in shifting the Government’s stance, however slightly.
I’m happy to answer questions or clarify points, and of course will post again during the proposal stage of the new law, and when there is any further information on the possibility of taking the issue as a case to the European Court."
thats sort of where we are right now. Much of the problem is down to government trying to regulate the industry, protectionism. The moratorium on new tourist building, other than 5 star, was clearly put in place to try to ensure the existing tourist legal acomodation was full enough. The problem is that over the past 15 years the residential letting apartments brought many thousands of guests to the canaries and so the economy grew. All these many thousands of extra guests spent money in retuarants ,bars and shops, they went on excursions and had days out in water parks. This was seen as helpfull to the economy and the canary people as the legal accomodations were also busy enough. Only with the crisis of 2008 and the severe downturn have the hotels and the government decided to turn on the apartments, clearly they were panicking and wanted to try to get these apartment customers into their hotels.
The more the canary government trys to plan and control its econmy, the worse the situation will become. free markets work best and consumers are entitled to their free choice of holiday style and accomodation. For any government to meddle in protectionist thinking is a very bad prospect for economic growth and development. The canary government wants to have its cake and eat it, allow free trade in boom times , then it wants to play protectionism when times are hard. We will have to wait and see what the canary government decides to do about this issue as their economy gets worse in the weeks ahead. they need every internet advert that they used to have working to fill planes and bring them guests, and every available apartment bed ready to accomodate them. Their vision of 5 star tourists at this desperate world wide economic time is just like what Marie Antonette said to the french poor all those years ago. If they have no bread let them eat cake ! Though this attitude is a tradegy for the canarian economy and people, you may be right , they may continue to say this for some time to come.
Whilst I appreciate you will never see this situation as being sensible, there are a few important points.
1. You cannot blame the Canaries for seeking to regulate their single most important asset. It is their life blood, and allowing cowboys to set-up shop and pocket their takings without putting a single cent into the system is wrong full stop.
Countries, town and county councils seek to regulate most services provided in their areas - taxi's, restaurants, child care, social services, speed limits and the like. So why should the touristic offer here not have some form of regulation to protect the users of it?
2. The largest section of the Canarian (note please it is Canarian) economy which is at failt here is the hundreds of so-called estate agents trying to make a fast buck in the knowledge of the law. It is they who have created the problems and if the Government here has any blame to shoulder it is in failing to regulate the property industry as well as the tourism industry.
3. Not all certainly, but a fair number of those who bought to let, or were persuaded to buy to let by agents, residential property contribute little to the islands since a lot of the rental deals were done in cash. Why should this not be clamped down in times of austerity? More importantly, why should those who live and work here not be allowed to enjoy their free time in their bought or long-term rented apartment without interference from tourists. Just because the majority of property here is in the form of apartments, does not mean it should be available for people on their jollies. Any challenge to this in Europe would surely fail on simple human rights grounds.
4. Most importantly. This is not your (our) country, it is theirs, and they make the rules. We may see some of them as making little sense, but who are we to judge? We don't have a vote at national level, nor do the Canarians have a vote at our national levels. It's the way it works.
In your particular case Nelson I believe thet you have been caught up in the dormant touristic issue which, as the report from JA indicates, is now known to have issues which it seems may be fixed. For you then there is a longer term prospect of your complex being brought back in the touristic offer - although I suspect you will than start complaining about the requirements again.
You should though spare a thought for those owners of residential apartments who have no prospect whatsoever of seeing their position change, having been mis-sold to in the first place, and no chance of compensation back from the cowboys who did the deed.
It seems to have been made abundantly clear that private residential will remain just that and will remain illegal to let to tourists despite your protestations and indeed the fact that alotca have made it also very clear this was not on their agenda. For many of us this is actually good news. Those caught up in fines should be pushing for a licensing system for agents as part of the forthcoming reforms so the situation is resolved at source.
[QUOTE=Hughsyb;187096]Are you referring to a report of a meeting by someone called Janet on another website?
I've read through it and I don't see anywhere where Ricardo de la Puente says there will be no change to the law regarding residential villas in the Canaries. Can
you point it out?
It is referred to in an oblique way in this, which is from Janets website and which I hope I can copy onto here?
"Alotca update on illegal letting meeting with Canarian Government viceconsejero de Turismo
Published 8 June 2012.Alotca has had a meeting with Ricardo de la Puente, the viceconsejero de Turismo in the Canarian Government, the head, in other words, of the tourism department in the Canaries. I can update as follows.
We have not been granted an audience with the President himself not least because he will not intervene in the running of Turismo and considers the viceconsejero completely in control of the department. Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that uncontrolled letting is not a part of that model. As such, there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes – which Alotca was not lobbying for, nor of independent villas – for which we were lobbying.
There is, however, to be new legislation to amend the law in at least two respects: the first is with regard to touristic complexes, and the second to villas on complexes that are currently residential. The new law is to be open for proposals to be submitted in around two months or so, and so at the moment its final form is unknown. What is clear, however, is that the sole agent system is to be changed in some ways, with a new concept of a “condominium” coming into play alongside a type of shares system in the running of touristic complexes. As part of these changes, complexes that are often called “dormant” will be permitted to resuscitate their licences. Also, villas on complexes that are currently residential, but whose land is or can be designated touristic, will be allowed to apply for touristic licences.
As far as Alotca is concerned, once the law is opened for proposals, we will be submitting for further changes, particularly with regard to independent villas. We have to recognize, however, that Turismo is effectively closed to such suggestions. The Canarian Government’s model for tourism, as I said above that Sr de la Puente made clear, does not include any such vision. As such, we have decided to shelve the idea of a petition: it has been made abundantly clear to us that the law will not change beyond the extent already outlined, and so it is on the one hand pointless lobbying for changes we have been categorically told will not be considered, and on the other hand, some of the changes we were lobbying for have already been granted.
I am not trying to imply that Alotca has won these changes single handedly, but it became very clear in the meeting that our actions so far have played a clear role in making the Government change its stance, however slightly. Instead of a petition, therefore, we feel that the better way forward is to go to the European Court itself, and the lawyers are currently investigating the possibilities in this regard.
With respect to appeals outstanding, many have expired through exceeding the six month period within which the Government had to complete the process. This is in no small part because of the extensive and expansive nature of the appeals submitted at each stage, which have tied up the process and consumed the time available for the Government. Those which are still ongoing, and which the Government does finalise within six months may then be appealed in the Courts, but the lawyers are now in no doubt at all that the Courts will not overturn the fines: the best that can be achieved is a minimisation of the fines to €1,500, the lowest amount for the “grave” category that the fines are in. For those who find themselves in that position, the lawyers estimate that the costs involved will be around €1,000, which comprises a similar fee to the first appeals plus an extra fee for the barrister that is required to appear in Court.
Although it is worth appealing to try for that reduction, any such judgment will not achieve the overturning of the law itself: the Courts must judge within the legislation as it stands, and that will not change with regard to the “offence”, nor the fines. This is why the lawyers consider the next stage must be examination of the possibilities of an appeal to the European Court. We feel that in some respects we have failed, but in others we have had successes. As I said above, we are not trying to imply that Alotca has won these changes alone, but our asociación has had a clear impact in shifting the Government’s stance, however slightly.
I’m happy to answer questions or clarify points, and of course will post again during the proposal stage of the new law, and when there is any further information on the possibility of taking the issue as a case to the European Court."
See the highlighted text above which was part of Turismo's response
Please can someone tell me if this is true, I have been told that the fines that are being give to people for illegal letting only apply by law to residents and management companies on the Canary Islands, if you live in the UK and are letting out property in Tenerife thats ok to do so.
Surely that can't be right.
delderek
13-06-2012, 11:56
You may have missed this, also from Janet's site.
that Turismo were saying they believe many “illegal letters” avoid tax and that they will be passing on details to the Inland Revenue in the UK. Alotca’s lawyers think it is now essential only to advertise residential lets AND to make sure your tax affairs in Spain are up to date.
Whilst I appreciate you will never see this situation as being sensible, there are a few important points.
1. You cannot blame the Canaries for seeking to regulate their single most important asset. It is their life blood, and allowing cowboys to set-up shop and pocket their takings without putting a single cent into the system is wrong full stop.
Countries, town and county councils seek to regulate most services provided in their areas - taxi's, restaurants, child care, social services, speed limits and the like. So why should the touristic offer here not have some form of regulation to protect the users of it?
2. The largest section of the Canarian (note please it is Canarian) economy which is at failt here is the hundreds of so-called estate agents trying to make a fast buck in the knowledge of the law. It is they who have created the problems and if the Government here has any blame to shoulder it is in failing to regulate the property industry as well as the tourism industry.
3. Not all certainly, but a fair number of those who bought to let, or were persuaded to buy to let by agents, residential property contribute little to the islands since a lot of the rental deals were done in cash. Why should this not be clamped down in times of austerity? More importantly, why should those who live and work here not be allowed to enjoy their free time in their bought or long-term rented apartment without interference from tourists. Just because the majority of property here is in the form of apartments, does not mean it should be available for people on their jollies. Any challenge to this in Europe would surely fail on simple human rights grounds.
4. Most importantly. This is not your (our) country, it is theirs, and they make the rules. We may see some of them as making little sense, but who are we to judge? We don't have a vote at national level, nor do the Canarians have a vote at our national levels. It's the way it works.
In your particular case Nelson I believe thet you have been caught up in the dormant touristic issue which, as the report from JA indicates, is now known to have issues which it seems may be fixed. For you then there is a longer term prospect of your complex being brought back in the touristic offer - although I suspect you will than start complaining about the requirements again.
You should though spare a thought for those owners of residential apartments who have no prospect whatsoever of seeing their position change, having been mis-sold to in the first place, and no chance of compensation back from the cowboys who did the deed.
It seems to have been made abundantly clear that private residential will remain just that and will remain illegal to let to tourists despite your protestations and indeed the fact that alotca have made it also very clear this was not on their agenda. For many of us this is actually good news. Those caught up in fines should be pushing for a licensing system for agents as part of the forthcoming reforms so the situation is resolved at source.
I would not argue for a free for all situation to reform the present mess. There of course has to be regulation of such an important industry in the canarires. As I have stated many times I would wish to see a system like they have moved to in portugal, a permit system for private renting, each owner paying an annual fee to the government for this, in portugal they pay 400 euro per year. Many standards have to be enforced and it is only right that the government recieve some tax benefit from this section of tourist industry.
I do not accept that the the thousands of so called residential apartments in all the resorts should be stopped from renting when they were left alone for so many years and helped the economy in the canaries so much. I also think that as things stand today no sane person could think that to have taken so many advertisements from the internet and deny all those possible tourists a chance to come to the canaries is a sensible action.
Who anywhere in this world today can afford to turn away and custom at all ?
Please can someone tell me if this is true, I have been told that the fines that are being give to people for illegal letting only apply by law to residents and management companies on the Canary Islands, if you live in the UK and are letting out property in Tenerife thats ok to do so.
Surely that can't be right.
You will find all the answers and a great deal more info here mariben http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23-The-Tenerife-illegal-lettings-thread
Nelson just carry on doing what you are doing and help the Government with your fine donation
Simple innit
Originally Posted by Red Devil
[QUOTE=Hughsyb;187096]Are you referring to a report of a meeting by someone called Janet on another website?
I've read through it and I don't see anywhere where Ricardo de la Puente says there will be no change to the law regarding residential villas in the Canaries. Can
you point it out?
It is referred to in an oblique way in this, which is from Janets website and which I hope I can copy onto here?
"Alotca update on illegal letting meeting with Canarian Government viceconsejero de Turismo
Published 8 June 2012.Alotca has had a meeting with Ricardo de la Puente, the viceconsejero de Turismo in the Canarian Government, the head, in other words, of the tourism department in the Canaries. I can update as follows.
We have not been granted an audience with the President himself not least because he will not intervene in the running of Turismo and considers the viceconsejero completely in control of the department. Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that uncontrolled letting is not a part of that model. As such, there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes – which Alotca was not lobbying for, nor of independent villas – for which we were lobbying.
There is, however, to be new legislation to amend the law in at least two respects: the first is with regard to touristic complexes, and the second to villas on complexes that are currently residential. The new law is to be open for proposals to be submitted in around two months or so, and so at the moment its final form is unknown. What is clear, however, is that the sole agent system is to be changed in some ways, with a new concept of a “condominium” coming into play alongside a type of shares system in the running of touristic complexes. As part of these changes, complexes that are often called “dormant” will be permitted to resuscitate their licences. Also, villas on complexes that are currently residential, but whose land is or can be designated touristic, will be allowed to apply for touristic licences.
As far as Alotca is concerned, once the law is opened for proposals, we will be submitting for further changes, particularly with regard to independent villas. We have to recognize, however, that Turismo is effectively closed to such suggestions. The Canarian Government’s model for tourism, as I said above that Sr de la Puente made clear, does not include any such vision. As such, we have decided to shelve the idea of a petition: it has been made abundantly clear to us that the law will not change beyond the extent already outlined, and so it is on the one hand pointless lobbying for changes we have been categorically told will not be considered, and on the other hand, some of the changes we were lobbying for have already been granted.
I am not trying to imply that Alotca has won these changes single handedly, but it became very clear in the meeting that our actions so far have played a clear role in making the Government change its stance, however slightly. Instead of a petition, therefore, we feel that the better way forward is to go to the European Court itself, and the lawyers are currently investigating the possibilities in this regard.
With respect to appeals outstanding, many have expired through exceeding the six month period within which the Government had to complete the process. This is in no small part because of the extensive and expansive nature of the appeals submitted at each stage, which have tied up the process and consumed the time available for the Government. Those which are still ongoing, and which the Government does finalise within six months may then be appealed in the Courts, but the lawyers are now in no doubt at all that the Courts will not overturn the fines: the best that can be achieved is a minimisation of the fines to €1,500, the lowest amount for the “grave” category that the fines are in. For those who find themselves in that position, the lawyers estimate that the costs involved will be around €1,000, which comprises a similar fee to the first appeals plus an extra fee for the barrister that is required to appear in Court.
Although it is worth appealing to try for that reduction, any such judgment will not achieve the overturning of the law itself: the Courts must judge within the legislation as it stands, and that will not change with regard to the “offence”, nor the fines. This is why the lawyers consider the next stage must be examination of the possibilities of an appeal to the European Court. We feel that in some respects we have failed, but in others we have had successes. As I said above, we are not trying to imply that Alotca has won these changes alone, but our asociación has had a clear impact in shifting the Government’s stance, however slightly.
I’m happy to answer questions or clarify points, and of course will post again during the proposal stage of the new law, and when there is any further information on the possibility of taking the issue as a case to the European Court."
Sorry but I still don't see anything there which says they will stop all holiday letting in residential properties in the Canaries.
I can see where it says "Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that UNCONTROLLED letting is not a part of that model.", but nowhere where it says that CONTROLLED letting isn't part of that model?
Conclusion:-
there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes – which Alotca was not lobbying for
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Red Devil
Sorry but I still don't see anything there which says they will stop all holiday letting in residential properties in the Canaries.
I can see where it says "Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that UNCONTROLLED letting is not a part of that model.", but nowhere where it says that CONTROLLED letting isn't part of that model?
"We have not been granted an audience with the President himself not least because he will not intervene in the running of Turismo and considers the viceconsejero completely in control of the department. Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that uncontrolled letting is not a part of that model. As such, there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes – which Alotca was not lobbying for, nor of independent villas – for which we were lobbying."
Read the sentence after "if uncontrolled letting is not part of the model" - it seems to make it quite clear that there is no chance of any kind of letting other than long term letting in residential complexes.
@ Hughsyb
The reading between the lines "because it suits me to do so" continues ...
Red Devil
13-06-2012, 15:04
Bobmac & Muppet, none of the above was said by me, that statement was said by Hughsyb in reply to me (I think)
Bobmac & Muppet, none of the above was said by me, that statement was said by Hughsyb in reply to me (I think)
Yes, I have finally been able to edit my post (stupid board) and yes, to confirm my comment is aimed at Hughsyb - somewhat tongue in cheek of course!
And further to Hughsyb - best suggestion I have for you is to contact Tourismo directly and have them confirm JAs report. I think many of us on here have enough trust in her accuracy to take her comments at face value.
There seem to be several key points.
Private letting on residential sites will not happen (thankfully). It does not fall within the Government's "vision" for tourism.
Touristic sites and sole agencies will be reviewed, in as yet to be discussed way, but which looks like it might provide a mechanism for "dormant" complexes to become active again.
Private Villa letting seems like it will be included in the forthcoming review, offering a potential solution for some.
When the time comes for the review interested parties look like they may be invited to put forward their thoughts and comments - whether they are listened too is another matter entirely.
Bobmac & Muppet, none of the above was said by me, that statement was said by Hughsyb in reply to me (I think)
Same as Muppet, I wasn't aiming at you
seanocelt
13-06-2012, 15:26
[QUOTE=Hughsyb;187264]
"We have not been granted an audience with the President himself not least because he will not intervene in the running of Turismo and considers the viceconsejero completely in control of the department. Sr de la Puente, for his part, has said that the Government has a model for tourism for the Canaries and that uncontrolled letting is not a part of that model. As such, there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes – which Alotca was not lobbying for, nor of independent villas – for which we were lobbying."
Read the sentence after "if uncontrolled letting is not part of the model" - it seems to make it quite clear that there is no chance of any kind of letting other than long term letting in residential complexes.
Seriously, could it be any feckin clearer? But still the doubters doubt , heads happily in the sand. I looked at holidaylettings.com , villas in Lanzarote, and as Hugh keeps telling us, plenty advertised. YES and plenty STILL AVAILABLE! A saturated illegal market, given bad advice. Hotels are doing nicely though ;-)
As such, there is no hope whatsoever for open letting on residential complexes
Who is saying that? Janet? That may be her opinion but she knows as much or as little as anyone else.
Again, as with "uncontrolled", notice the use of ambiguous words like "open".
I would not argue for a free for all situation to reform the present mess. There of course has to be regulation of such an important industry in the canarires. As I have stated many times I would wish to see a system like they have moved to in portugal, a permit system for private renting, each owner paying an annual fee to the government for this, in portugal they pay 400 euro per year. Many standards have to be enforced and it is only right that the government recieve some tax benefit from this section of tourist industry.
I do not accept that the the thousands of so called residential apartments in all the resorts should be stopped from renting when they were left alone for so many years and helped the economy in the canaries so much. I also think that as things stand today no sane person could think that to have taken so many advertisements from the internet and deny all those possible tourists a chance to come to the canaries is a sensible action.
Who anywhere in this world today can afford to turn away and custom at all ?
Read the report of the meeting with turismo again.
Other than long term letting, there will not be an option for letting on residential complexes. The fact that you were left alone for so many years is totally irrelevant, the law was always there and they have now decided to enforce it so all the people who were holiday letting on residential complexes will have to come to terms with the fact that they can no longer carry on as if the law isn't there
Who is saying that? Janet? That may be her opinion but she knows as much or as little as anyone else.
Again, as with "uncontrolled", notice the use of ambiguous words like "open".
As with my previous comment - bloody ring them for yourself, then post back ....
Who is saying that? Janet? That may be her opinion but she knows as much or as little as anyone else.
Again, as with "uncontrolled", notice the use of ambiguous words like "open".
Janet was at the meeting with Turismo and has reported what was said by them.
If you don't like the message, don't blame the messenger, take Muppet's advice and ask Turismo for yourself and see what they tell you happened at the meeting and report back - although I get the impression that even if they confirm what Janet has reported, you are still not going to accept what they have said.
Accept what they've said? You're dead right I'm not.
It never ceases to amaze me how you all think these guys are numpties, idiots, shortsighted etc, etc, yet believe every single word they are reported as saying. If you believe everything Spanish politicians say, you're the numpties.
Read the report of the meeting with turismo again.
Other than long term letting, there will not be an option for letting on residential complexes. The fact that you were left alone for so many years is totally irrelevant, the law was always there and they have now decided to enforce it so all the people who were holiday letting on residential complexes will have to come to terms with the fact that they can no longer carry on as if the law isn't there
we are at a very early stage in the camapaign for legal private letting, and the meeting alotca has just had with tourismo is the first. Nobody can look at what has been said by tourismo at this very early stage and decide that this is where we all may be in 2 years time. It is significant that they are proposing reform of sole agency and allowing dormant touristic sites to re licence. We are not sure what the reforms to sole agency will be, the JA site describes a new system of share ownership and condominium , whatever those changes actually mean we will all have to wait and see. In the future and with a severe decline in the canary economy the attitude of tourismo may change towards permiting letting on residential apartments.
Its like just a few weeks ago bobmac , you often would rant at me saying the canary law was the law and we were wrong to campaign to have it changed. Well just look bobmac, we have campaigned and they are going to change the letting laws on sole agency. So unlike what you ranted , the law was not set in stone and not open to change. Change is going to be done.
Thanks to someone else for this.
03.12.2010 -
Ricardo Fernández de la Puente Armas, who worked for 10 years as manager of the regional hotels federation, Ashotel, continued “we are a massive destination, with a huge amount of beds on offer, and we should be looking to attract every kind of tourist who wants to come to the Canaries”. Whether people are looking for a stay in a luxury hotel, families looking for four star accommodation, others who want rural tourism, or alternative kinds of accommodation, “it’s important to stress that there isn’t just one kind of tourist….” These islands, he says, have enough diversity to please everyone."
Now he's saying the opposite and you all hang on his every word. :doh:
Thanks to someone else for this.
03.12.2010 -
Ricardo Fernández de la Puente Armas, who worked for 10 years as manager of the regional hotels federation, Ashotel, continued “we are a massive destination, with a huge amount of beds on offer, and we should be looking to attract every kind of tourist who wants to come to the Canaries”. Whether people are looking for a stay in a luxury hotel, families looking for four star accommodation, others who want rural tourism, or alternative kinds of accommodation, “it’s important to stress that there isn’t just one kind of tourist….” These islands, he says, have enough diversity to please everyone."
Now he's saying the opposite and you all hang on his every word. :doh:
hang on a minute, are you actually saying that the top minister in the canary government tourism department, the department that is attacking the private renters with huge fines, was previously employed by ashotel, the hotel association for ten years ?
surely you must be wrong , that would mean that when people talk about this being a protectionist move to help the hotels at the expense of the apartments they may have hit the nail right on the head? talk about government minister being a little too close and cosy with the hotels pressure group!!!
seanocelt
13-06-2012, 17:45
its been a known fact since the start!
its been a known fact since the start!
yes I know, but on here there are some doubters now and again.
I believe this thread is an important one to revive ... and hopefully we will not bore the socks off people quite as much as before
It started with an announcement in the papers in December 2010 that 17 new inspectors had been appointed to investigate illegal and hidden holiday lettings. We had reports of several letting agents being inspected, starting in February - some fines have been issued (and are being appealed as far as I know)
Loaded, has written a good background to the letting laws here
http://www.palomabeach.com/letting-law-95-explained.asp
EDIT - more up to date by Loaded
http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/the-1995-letting-law-in-tenerife-and-the-canaries.asp
It came as a shock to many owners of apartments in Residential complexes, that they were not entitled to rent out short term (which is anything below 3 months) as sadly, many had been told by agents that they could easily cover mortgage payments with holiday lettings.
It seems now that independent villas are close to being allowed rent out if duly registered (and inspected?) ... the debate continues as to whether there will be any amnesty for Residential complex letters or whether they will eventually be facing fines.
As I said at the end of my opening post back in December, if you are in the market for an apartment in Tenerife, you really do need to take into account these laws (of 1995 and 1998) which, it seems, are finally being enforced
So if you are living in the Uk and have an apartment rented out on a residential complex in Tenerife for holiday lets, then its illegal letting.
So if you are living in the Uk and have an apartment rented out on a residential complex in Tenerife for holiday lets, then its illegal letting.
If you live anywhere in the world that's illegal renting
If you live anywhere in the world that's illegal rentingThank you I will pass this information on.
junglejim
13-06-2012, 19:32
its been a known fact since the start!
It´s certainly well known by our ex-President ( a Canarian lawyer) that De La Puente has strong connections to the Hotel mafia here and is very protective of their cartel!
cainaries
13-06-2012, 20:08
If you live anywhere in the world that's illegal renting
But property in the UK isn´t designated 'tourist' OR 'residential', is it? Or is it? If I own a house, just for example, on the Isle of Wight, it´s not either residential or tourist so, presumably, I could let it to holidaymakers if I chose to? I don't have to apply to change its status.
But property in the UK isn´t designated 'tourist' OR 'residential', is it? Or is it? If I own a house, just for example, on the Isle of Wight, it´s not either residential or tourist so, presumably, I could let it to holidaymakers if I chose to? I don't have to apply to change its status.
You're taking the answer out of context - it was given in reply to a question asking if a Uk resident living in the UK and owning a residential property in Tenerife was breaking the law by holiday letting their Tenerife property
Santiago
13-06-2012, 20:30
Not exactly! Planning permission can be given for residential or holiday homes. Residential means that you can live in it 12 months of the year - or let it out short term or long term for 12 months of the year. If the planning permission is for a holiday home then there are restrictions as to how long the accommodation can be occupied each year - usually ten months, but can be decided by the council in the area in which the property is placed. For instance, we could apply to have our barns converted to holiday homes, but would probably not be allowed to have them made into residential accommodation. Caravan parks come under slightly different rules and have to be licensed for a set time each season. The length of this licence is dependent on the council in each particular area and also dependent on what has been applied for by the owner. It is far more complicated than the system (or lack of one) you have in the Canaries.
cainaries
13-06-2012, 20:59
You're taking the answer out of context - it was given in reply to a question asking if a Uk resident living in the UK and owning a residential property in Tenerife was breaking the law by holiday letting their Tenerife property
And the reply was 'if you live anywhere in the world, that's illegal letting' so I'm not sure why you say I've taken it out of context. It seems the Spanish classify all property (and, indeed, all people) as either residential or touristic. If someone owns a residential property and wants to rent it out short-term, they have to apply for change of use. I don't believe this is the case everywhere.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Not exactly! Planning permission can be given for residential or holiday homes. Residential means that you can live in it 12 months of the year - or let it out short term or long term for 12 months of the year. If the planning permission is for a holiday home then there are restrictions as to how long the accommodation can be occupied each year - usually ten months, but can be decided by the council in the area in which the property is placed. For instance, we could apply to have our barns converted to holiday homes, but would probably not be allowed to have them made into residential accommodation. Caravan parks come under slightly different rules and have to be licensed for a set time each season. The length of this licence is dependent on the council in each particular area and also dependent on what has been applied for by the owner. It is far more complicated than the system (or lack of one) you have in the Canaries.
So, if I decide to rent my 200 year old totally fictitious home on the Isle of Wight, would I have to apply for change of use and subsequently a licence to let it, or just a licence to let it? Just stirring the pot a little here, Santiago.
[QUOTE=cainaries;187448]And the reply was 'if you live anywhere in the world, that's illegal letting' so I'm not sure why you say I've taken it out of context. It seems the Spanish classify all property (and, indeed, all people) as either residential or touristic. If someone owns a residential property and wants to rent it out short-term, they have to apply for change of use. I don't believe this is the case everywhere. QUOTE]
The question was "Is it illegal to holiday let your property on a residential complex on Tenerife if you are living in the UK ?"
The answer given was "If you live anywhere in the world, that's illegal renting" which is clearly meant to show that where you live is irrelevant to the fact that it is illegal to holiday let your residential property in Tenerife.
The law as it stands in the Canaries is that Holiday Letting is illegal for Residential property
Answer was taken completely out of context .....
cainaries
13-06-2012, 21:54
[QUOTE=cainaries;187448]And the reply was 'if you live anywhere in the world, that's illegal letting' so I'm not sure why you say I've taken it out of context. It seems the Spanish classify all property (and, indeed, all people) as either residential or touristic. If someone owns a residential property and wants to rent it out short-term, they have to apply for change of use. I don't believe this is the case everywhere. QUOTE]
The question was "Is it illegal to holiday let your property on a residential complex on Tenerife if you are living in the UK ?"
The answer given was "If you live anywhere in the world, that's illegal renting" which is clearly meant to show that where you live is irrelevant to the fact that it is illegal to holiday let your residential property in Tenerife.
The law as it stands in the Canaries is that Holiday Letting is illegal for Residential property
Have it your way. It isn't how I read it since the word Tenerife doesn't appear. Nor, indeed, residential. Usually if people are answering a specific question, they include that point in their post.
So if you are living in the Uk and have an apartment rented out on a residential complex in Tenerife for holiday lets, then its illegal letting.
If you live anywhere in the then it's illegal renting....
That means it doesn't matter that you live in the UK, you could live in Madagascar and have an apartment in Tenerife, you still can't rent it out to on holiday let's if on a residential complex.
Jeeeez
[QUOTE=BobMac;187458]
Have it your way. It isn't how I read it since the word Tenerife doesn't appear. Nor, indeed, residential. Usually if people are answering a specific question, they include that point in their post.
Or they quote the specific question and refer to it I'm their answer.....
it does read like you are saying renting residential apartments to tourists is an illegal act anywhere around the world. I can see now that you meant that it is illegal to rent apartments in the canaries to tourists no matter where you live in the world.
You have confused a few people but think we are clear on your point now.
Yes It does read like I'm saying that if you don't bother to read the comment I quoted and replied to....
seanocelt
14-06-2012, 02:13
Utter childishness from some of you here the past dozen replies.........we all know, if you own on Tenerife (or the feckin Canary Islands) and you let to tourists on a non touristic licenced complex it is contrary to the current legislation. Stop wasting valuable forum space. Please? Bobmac and Loaded have tried to explain about context, but why dont some people go back a page or 2 then they will see, its so obvious. The thread died for long enough, read Janet ********'s update pasted here and elsewhere, its a pretty dead topic really.
EDIT; and it would be nice to see a few posters on this thread post on other threads too, some just come on this one defending their own ( unlucky but wrong )position.
If you live anywhere in the then it's illegal renting....
That means it doesn't matter that you live in the UK, you could live in Madagascar and have an apartment in Tenerife, you still can't rent it out to on holiday let's if on a residential complex.
Jeeeez
Are their letting laws the same as Portugal?
welshman
15-06-2012, 00:09
Are their letting laws the same as Portugal?
I own in Portugal but would love to own in tenerife. The letting law was changed in 2008 everything had to be licenced and inspected before renting. Its working well on both accounts increasing quality of accomidation available and revenue return for goverment.
I would like to comment on a close friend of mine that is caught up in what,s going on. I,m an accountant in the uk and have in the passed helped him prepare his accounts. Every three months to submit his return to his accontant in Tenerife, to pay his tax every quarter. He owns two apartments 1 purchased 9 years ago in an old timeshare complex. It was for investment purpose the complex sold for rental purpose. A full page advert in Tenerife News which he still has copy, advertising complex for holiday lets. He purchase it and put it in the hands of the then, new complex agent. It lasted all of 18 months as he could not be trusted. Every other person on the complex was renting direct through various sites, so joined the throng but declared earning in Tenerife and UK. He paid tax in Tenerife then at 24% on gross lets. The accounting system changed 2 years ago so you could claim normal expences against your lettings ( electric, advertising , laundry etc.) From day one he declared his lettings and was hit hard for years with the 24% tax on gross letting. His accounts were submitted yearly in the UK and every year,and every year he made a loss on his investment yet paid tax in Tenerife.
He still felt that Tenerife was a good investment long term, so he purchased another apartment on touristic complex 2005 with a 3 year rental agreement. However the agreement was not renewed in 2008 as the agent did not want his apartment as he could not fill what he had on his books. So he was again left to rent direct, but declared everything for tax in Tenerife and UK. The investment has been total loss maker for him so please don,t say these people have made a killing or making a killing. He has now put both apartments up forsale due to the clamp down and trying to get out. He is lucky that he can afored to waite for best price he would have been better purchasing at home.
seanocelt
15-06-2012, 03:08
I own in Portugal but would love to own in tenerife. The letting law was changed in 2008 everything had to be licenced and inspected before renting. Its working well on both accounts increasing quality of accomidation available and revenue return for goverment.
I would like to comment on a close friend of mine that is caught up in what,s going on. I,m an accountant in the uk and have in the passed helped him prepare his accounts. Every three months to submit his return to his accontant in Tenerife, to pay his tax every quarter. He owns two apartments 1 purchased 9 years ago in an old timeshare complex. It was for investment purpose the complex sold for rental purpose. A full page advert in Tenerife News which he still has copy, advertising complex for holiday lets. He purchase it and put it in the hands of the then, new complex agent. It lasted all of 18 months as he could not be trusted. Every other person on the complex was renting direct through various sites, so joined the throng but declared earning in Tenerife and UK. He paid tax in Tenerife then at 24% on gross lets. The accounting system changed 2 years ago so you could claim normal expences against your lettings ( electric, advertising , laundry etc.) From day one he declared his lettings and was hit hard for years with the 24% tax on gross letting. His accounts were submitted yearly in the UK and every year,and every year he made a loss on his investment yet paid tax in Tenerife.
He still felt that Tenerife was a good investment long term, so he purchased another apartment on touristic complex 2005 with a 3 year rental agreement. However the agreement was not renewed in 2008 as the agent did not want his apartment as he could not fill what he had on his books. So he was again left to rent direct, but declared everything for tax in Tenerife and UK. The investment has been total loss maker for him so please don,t say these people have made a killing or making a killing. He has now put both apartments up forsale due to the clamp down and trying to get out. He is lucky that he can afored to waite for best price he would have been better purchasing at home.
You looking for sympathy? Sorry, but purchase number 2, equals either more money than sense or " i see a great opportunity". It didnt work out? Thats property investment. (he would have been better purchasing at home you quote, so he is a property speculator, is it written somewhere that speculation = win? Ask the singer of Westlife who lost his **** on it, filing bankrupcy.). Just takes my breath away the people that think the law implementation is WRONG because they screwed up.
jogger321
15-06-2012, 08:42
I own in Portugal but would love to own in tenerife. The letting law was changed in 2008 everything had to be licenced and inspected before renting. Its working well on both accounts increasing quality of accomidation available and revenue return for goverment.
I would like to comment on a close friend of mine that is caught up in what,s going on. I,m an accountant in the uk and have in the passed helped him prepare his accounts. Every three months to submit his return to his accontant in Tenerife, to pay his tax every quarter. He owns two apartments 1 purchased 9 years ago in an old timeshare complex. It was for investment purpose the complex sold for rental purpose. A full page advert in Tenerife News which he still has copy, advertising complex for holiday lets. He purchase it and put it in the hands of the then, new complex agent. It lasted all of 18 months as he could not be trusted. Every other person on the complex was renting direct through various sites, so joined the throng but declared earning in Tenerife and UK. He paid tax in Tenerife then at 24% on gross lets. The accounting system changed 2 years ago so you could claim normal expences against your lettings ( electric, advertising , laundry etc.) From day one he declared his lettings and was hit hard for years with the 24% tax on gross letting. His accounts were submitted yearly in the UK and every year,and every year he made a loss on his investment yet paid tax in Tenerife.
He still felt that Tenerife was a good investment long term, so he purchased another apartment on touristic complex 2005 with a 3 year rental agreement. However the agreement was not renewed in 2008 as the agent did not want his apartment as he could not fill what he had on his books. So he was again left to rent direct, but declared everything for tax in Tenerife and UK. The investment has been total loss maker for him so please don,t say these people have made a killing or making a killing. He has now put both apartments up forsale due to the clamp down and trying to get out. He is lucky that he can afored to waite for best price he would have been better purchasing at home.
Sorry I'm not really sure what i'm supposed to say? I recently sold a portfolio of shares. On some I lost a lot of money even though I had held them for years and paid taxes on the dividends. I remember I bought some of them on the back of newspaper articles from "Investment advisors" who recommended them as a good long term investment. The reality is the directors of these companies have paid themselves huge renumeration whilst the share price had dived.
Obviously i'm disappointed but its not called an "investment" for nothing some go up and some down. If you are not prepared to accept this best to just stick it in the highest paying account with a building society.
Playing with shares, property and the like is nothing more, or less, than "speculation". It's what the banks have been doing with people's savings for years and, as now, can and has gone horribly wrong.
Brits particularly, but not exclusively, are unusual in that as a race we tend to buy our houses rather than rent as much of Europe. Helped greatly by the 70s and 80s sale of council housing, owning to us is far more the norm, and it is the equity which has allowed many to benefit and be in a position to look to buy a second property. But the growth in values we became used to over the years, fuelled to a great extent by demand, has created a generation of speculators - spurred on by glossy brochures and, here particulary, a generation of wide-boys.
I own in Portugal but would love to own in tenerife. The letting law was changed in 2008 everything had to be licenced and inspected before renting. Its working well on both accounts increasing quality of accomidation available and revenue return for goverment.
I would like to comment on a close friend of mine that is caught up in what,s going on. I,m an accountant in the uk and have in the passed helped him prepare his accounts. Every three months to submit his return to his accontant in Tenerife, to pay his tax every quarter. He owns two apartments 1 purchased 9 years ago in an old timeshare complex. It was for investment purpose the complex sold for rental purpose. A full page advert in Tenerife News which he still has copy, advertising complex for holiday lets. He purchase it and put it in the hands of the then, new complex agent. It lasted all of 18 months as he could not be trusted. Every other person on the complex was renting direct through various sites, so joined the throng but declared earning in Tenerife and UK. He paid tax in Tenerife then at 24% on gross lets. The accounting system changed 2 years ago so you could claim normal expences against your lettings ( electric, advertising , laundry etc.) From day one he declared his lettings and was hit hard for years with the 24% tax on gross letting. His accounts were submitted yearly in the UK and every year,and every year he made a loss on his investment yet paid tax in Tenerife.
He still felt that Tenerife was a good investment long term, so he purchased another apartment on touristic complex 2005 with a 3 year rental agreement. However the agreement was not renewed in 2008 as the agent did not want his apartment as he could not fill what he had on his books. So he was again left to rent direct, but declared everything for tax in Tenerife and UK. The investment has been total loss maker for him so please don,t say these people have made a killing or making a killing. He has now put both apartments up forsale due to the clamp down and trying to get out. He is lucky that he can afored to waite for best price he would have been better purchasing at home.
I seem to have read this post differently than other posters. To me .... the point being made is that many apartment owners have tried to operate legally, despite the fact that it has cost them financially .... but the sole agency system has just not worked in many complexes.
Hopefully, this part of the law will change once reviewed. But many on here seem to believe that all owners have made a killing, never paid taxes and deserve everything get (by that I mean the fines being imposed)!! This post shows that there are owners who would be glad to operate legally ........... it is the systems in place that have failed in many cases.
I seem to have read this post differently than other posters. To me .... the point being made is that many apartment owners have tried to operate legally, despite the fact that it has cost them financially .... but the sole agency system has just not worked in many complexes.
Hopefully, this part of the law will change once reviewed. But many on here seem to believe that all owners have made a killing, never paid taxes and deserve everything get (by that I mean the fines being imposed)!! This post shows that there are owners who would be glad to operate legally ........... it is the systems in place that have failed in many cases.
you always get that on here, people ranting that the fined apartment owners deserve the massive fines, and that the government crackdown is justified, because at the end of the day the law is a canary law since 1995 and all the people who are getting fined have broken the law. So more fool them for buying and renting in defiiance of the law of the land.
the reality is that a great many of them were decieved into buying to rent out in the first place, and in addition to that the canary government turned a blind eye to the situation for 15 years , the renting at the end of the day was vital to the canary economy.
Of course private renting is illegal in the canaries , but that is just ridiculous , why should such an ordinary thing like private renting, which is normal world wide , be considered illegal in the canaries? Its about as daft as women not being allowed to drive cars in saudi arabia, thats the law there but clearly people are going to want to get that changed in the future, its so plain wrong by any standard.
After alotcas meeting with tourismo recently we know that there is going to be reform of sole agency and dormant touristic complex's are to be allowed to re licence. In the cases of people renting on their own due to problems with sole agents, or lack of sole agents meaning they had no alternative to renting themselves, these reforms are going to be welcome. The fact that there is to reform of sole agency also shows that the government accepts that the law was in respect failing and therefore needs some reform. The friend welshman is posting about was clearly in this category as he has posted the man bought touristic but had problems with the sole agent and on another complex there was no sole agent.
In these circumstances the man suffered fines because the law was flawed to start with, hopefully the reforms to sole agency will help get him renting legally under a more sensible legal framework.
Nelson
Private renting is NOT illegal in the Canaries unless
a) you are letting privately on a residential complex or
b) you are renting privately on a touristic complex without putting it through the on-site sole agent (SHARK) which is now being reviewed
As long as you stay within the legal guidelines within the law it is not illegal
seanocelt
15-06-2012, 12:31
Nelson
Private renting is NOT illegal in the Canaries unless
a) you are letting privately on a residential complex or
b) you are renting privately on a touristic complex without putting it through the on-site sole agent (SHARK) which is now being reviewed
As long as you stay within the legal guidelines within the law it is not illegal
Honestly , its just wasted energy , some refuse, totally refuse to see that. (although i know of sole agents doing a great job with happy owners, so not all sharks). Foz, i agree with THAT part of Welshman's post, and i take no joy from the predicament owners find themselves in. I just hate how they couldnt care less about the forum, but like to use it to look for an "out"/ "soulmates on this thread alone.
I took this from the News in the sun yesterday yesterday. Innteresting bit near the end with the word "residential" confusing me..:confused:
he Canary Islands Government ministerial council has approved a new draft law on Renewal and Categorisation of Tourist Accommodation, which could force owners to upkeep their properties or face the threat of having them confiscated.
The bill, which will be put before the Parliament of the Canary Islands in September, establishes the requirement for owners of tourist establishments and tourist related activity providers to maintain, preserve, improve and rehabilitate their buildings and facilities.
Failure to comply could mean they could be awarded to a third party willing to invest in rehabilitation and, as a last resort, the Government could proceed to expropriation, Domingo Berriel, the Minister of Works, Transport and Regional Policy of the Canary Islands told reporters.
The purpose of the proposed Act is to improve the quality of of what is on offer to visitors to the islands and improve the incentives for upkeep and renewal already in force as part of the Emergency Measures Act of 2009, said Berriel.
To ensure the quality levels of accommodation compliance checks will be subcontracted to external audit firms that the hoteliers etc. will be obliged to hire themselves. Breaches in the minimum requirements will attract sanctions.
The move also seeks to aid the recovery of the ailing construction sector without the need to consume more land.
Procedures are to be simplified to avoid red tape and all required applications would be made at a “One-Stop” administration point where a newly created register of authorized tourist places will be available for investors to access.
With regard to tourist establishments located in residential areas; the new law will facilitate the legalisation of apartment and apart-hotel accommodation with mechanisms being introduced to regularise the situation of existing illegal tourist accommodation in exchange for improvements to quality.
Ooooooh nice to see that the brown envelopes* are finally getting through (allegedley) :D
*joke*
How many of the illegal letters will be willing to spend the required money to comply with this law or will they treat it the same as the one they all ignored ( or were unaware off even although it was in place for 15years) ??
How many of the illegal letters will be willing to spend the required money to comply with this law or will they treat it the same as the one they all ignored ( or were unaware off even although it was in place for 15years) ??
well bobmac we will just have to wait and see what has to be done under the new reformed laws that people have campaigned for.
wait a minute, was it not you Bobmac who often ranted on this thread a bit back that the illegal renters had broken the law and should stop complaining, end of argument. Was it not you who said campaigning against the letting laws was completely wrong as it was canary law and up to them to make their laws and we should accept our fines and respect their laws?
well bobmac we have campaigned and the laws are going to be reformed, they were not set in stone after all !!
well bobmac we will just have to wait and see what has to be done under the new reformed laws that people have campaigned for.
wait a minute, was it not you Bobmac who often ranted on this thread a bit back that the illegal renters had broken the law and should stop complaining, end of argument. Was it not you who said campaigning against the letting laws was completely wrong as it was canary law and up to them to make their laws and we should accept our fines and respect their laws?
well bobmac we have campaigned and the laws are going to be reformed, they were not set in stone after all !!
That was me
Will you be willing to pay the necessary costs to make your apartment comply with the standards that will be put in place for it to comply with the regulations ??
Red Devil
15-06-2012, 17:19
Think we should all hold our horses just for the moment - the article is clear as mud as usual but am wondering if it is still referring to "illegal" tourist establishments only.
That was me
Will you be willing to pay the necessary costs to make your apartment comply with the standards that will be put in place for it to comply with the regulations ??
well we are all entitled to our opinions, those of us who see the crackdown as unjust and the original letting laws as unjust had the opinion that they could be challenged and reformed.
I can not answer at the moment as to whether I will be able to comply with the requirements of the reformed letting laws. We all have to wait now to see if the reformed laws are going to be sensible and reasonable. For 8 years we have packed our places with happy tourists and improved them along the way. Our record year was ninety odd weeks let for 2 apartments , thanks to internet ads. The current situation of them now being empty at this time of the year is sad for me personally but a far greater tradegy for the canary economy , as the tourists we should be welcoming are now not there and their spending power for the canary economy is not going to be availble.
what we need as a matter of extreme urgency is to get those internet tourists back in my apartments and everyone elses. There is no time to lose to help the canary economy. If the canary government has sensible proposals then I am sure we can all embrace them, if they are genuine in their intentions we can all move forward and get those planes full and flying in again. the ball is in their court , I for one have an open mind at this time, as I said just before , we were getting a good number of guests as it was, and if it aint broke dont try to fix it.
welshman
15-06-2012, 18:03
I seem to have read this post differently than other posters. To me .... the point being made is that many apartment owners have tried to operate legally, despite the fact that it has cost them financially .... but the sole agency system has just not worked in many complexes.
Hopefully, this part of the law will change once reviewed. But many on here seem to believe that all owners have made a killing, never paid taxes and deserve everything get (by that I mean the fines being imposed)!! This post shows that there are owners who would be glad to operate legally ........... it is the systems in place that have failed in many cases.
Foz you have read comments correctly at no time did he want to be outside the law. He was one of the last clients to with draw his apartment from the sole agent. He bought the other on touristic complex and rented through the on site agent only to be informed after three year that they no longer required his apartment to let for him they made him become illegal. The chap is not worried regarding his investment you win some and you loose some but there are another 2 apartments taken off rental his accountant does not do any work for him and he no longer pays any more tax on lettings for no reason.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
How many Aparthotel will want to spend money to comply I have stayed in a few and the quality is Cr** I would stay in private letting every time, Glad I have a friend with first class apartments. Stayed in so call 4 star I would not give them 4 washers the state of some of them.
willowlily
15-06-2012, 19:13
just popped in to have a coffee and chat with a friend at vista hermosa this afternoon and whilst i was there a man with a clipboard rang her bell and asked whether she owned or rented the property.
Foz you have read comments correctly at no time did he want to be outside the law. He was one of the last clients to with draw his apartment from the sole agent. He bought the other on touristic complex and rented through the on site agent only to be informed after three year that they no longer required his apartment to let for him they made him become illegal. The chap is not worried regarding his investment you win some and you loose some but there are another 2 apartments taken off rental his accountant does not do any work for him and he no longer pays any more tax on lettings for no reason.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
How many Aparthotel will want to spend money to comply I have stayed in a few and the quality is Cr** I would stay in private letting every time, Glad I have a friend with first class apartments. Stayed in so call 4 star I would not give them 4 washers the state of some of them.
Having now gone thru most of this massive thread,which must now be rated as the largest thread in any forum I do not know who to blame.Myself like many others in the UK look for good holiday deals on a daily basis and with myself being a vistor to the Canary Islands for the past 44 years and having now spent a considerable amount of cash on the islands I now wonder if it was money well spent.I like free enterprise and anyone that has a vision to make cash deserves a pat on the shoulder.During the times myself and family have visited The Canary Islands we have stayed in tourist hotels and apartments that were pure crap and at one time I booked 2 apartments next to a brothel ! I would never spend any cash with a tourist apartment as the plus signs of renting from others is very good.Granted there should be new laws drawn up so that the Canarian Government will have some cash back from the renters.As I said I spent a load of cash to many in the Canary Islands and just like me a market worth many millions of Euros has now gone.It will be sad to see any business going under in the islands,but I hope things calm down and people start to speak to each other in order to find the perfect solution for all.The last few years of my visits to Tenerife have been quite outstanding and we have spent many days and evenings in some of the best restaurants in the world.I would doubt that we will ever come back to the Canary Islands again,partly due to my health and also that we cannot rent some of the best apartments in Europe,thank you
seanocelt
16-06-2012, 00:32
I would doubt that we will ever come back to the Canary Islands ;....bye then..................missin you already. Back on topic, fines are not being recorded on this forum....are they??
timmylish
16-06-2012, 01:09
Hey Lapalma.
Its nae wonder ye cannae come back to Tenerife as you clearly spent all yer lolly on some dubious pastimes whilst here?
"During the times myself and family have visited The Canary Islands we have stayed in tourist hotels and apartments that were pure crap and at one time I booked 2 apartments next to a brothel !"
well we are all entitled to our opinions, those of us who see the crackdown as unjust and the original letting laws as unjust had the opinion that they could be challenged and reformed.
I can not answer at the moment as to whether I will be able to comply with the requirements of the reformed letting laws. We all have to wait now to see if the reformed laws are going to be sensible and reasonable. For 8 years we have packed our places with happy tourists and improved them along the way. Our record year was ninety odd weeks let for 2 apartments , thanks to internet ads. The current situation of them now being empty at this time of the year is sad for me personally but a far greater tradegy for the canary economy , as the tourists we should be welcoming are now not there and their spending power for the canary economy is not going to be availble.
what we need as a matter of extreme urgency is to get those internet tourists back in my apartments and everyone elses. There is no time to lose to help the canary economy. If the canary government has sensible proposals then I am sure we can all embrace them, if they are genuine in their intentions we can all move forward and get those planes full and flying in again. the ball is in their court , I for one have an open mind at this time, as I said just before , we were getting a good number of guests as it was, and if it aint broke dont try to fix it.
90 odd weeks!!! Bet you didn't tell the tax man that. Don't get too excited yet about "getting the law changed".The article you are refering to was about a meeting that was held with "Turismo".They haven't come close to making any decisions yet and were merely saying what could happen in the future.Hold your horses and await some serious changes in the law.Meanwhile all the information held by the local inspectors is on its way to UK tax officials.
well we are all entitled to our opinions, those of us who see the crackdown as unjust and the original letting laws as unjust had the opinion that they could be challenged and reformed.
I can not answer at the moment as to whether I will be able to comply with the requirements of the reformed letting laws. We all have to wait now to see if the reformed laws are going to be sensible and reasonable. For 8 years we have packed our places with happy tourists and improved them along the way. Our record year was ninety odd weeks let for 2 apartments , thanks to internet ads. The current situation of them now being empty at this time of the year is sad for me personally but a far greater tradegy for the canary economy , as the tourists we should be welcoming are now not there and their spending power for the canary economy is not going to be availble.
what we need as a matter of extreme urgency is to get those internet tourists back in my apartments and everyone elses. There is no time to lose to help the canary economy. If the canary government has sensible proposals then I am sure we can all embrace them, if they are genuine in their intentions we can all move forward and get those planes full and flying in again. the ball is in their court , I for one have an open mind at this time, as I said just before , we were getting a good number of guests as it was, and if it aint broke dont try to fix it.
It was broke and they are fixing it!
Angusjim
16-06-2012, 08:28
So can you do holiday lets on Residential Complexes still seems a bit of a grey area to me:laugh::whistle::dontknow:
sunchaser
16-06-2012, 08:28
[QUOTE=seanocelt;188326]I would doubt that we will ever come back to the Canary Islands ;....bye then..................missin you already. Back on topic, fines are not being recorded on this forum....are they??[/QUOTE
Very good answer lmao
90 odd weeks!!! Bet you didn't tell the tax man that. Don't get too excited yet about "getting the law changed".The article you are refering to was about a meeting that was held with "Turismo".They haven't come close to making any decisions yet and were merely saying what could happen in the future.Hold your horses and await some serious changes in the law.Meanwhile all the information held by the local inspectors is on its way to UK tax officials.
we have always paid our taxes , both uk and canary ones. we only let to cover our costs so we never generate a profit, well to be frank over the years we have lost money on the apartments on a year by year basis. Before the internet ads we had to pay far more for newspaper advertising and got far fewer bookings. Then with cleaning costs, utilities and repairs , mortgage interest etc you dont earn profit from apartment letting. Thats part of the problem, always get angry sole agents on here complaining about unfair competition from under pricing private apartment. As I have said before , the private apartments are not pricing for a profit so they do charge less per week. The hoped for profit from apartment letting is the apartment, paid for by the renting out at the end of the mortgage, so best you can hope for is a buy to let investment all paid for many years in the future.
regardless of the lack of profit from renting I still favour a legal permit system like portugal, where the private renters have to pay a licence each year of 400 euro to be able to rent out. Regardless of any taxable profit they may or may not make , that way they are all contributing to the tax system of the country they are renting in. Of course the tourists that they are accomodating are vital in terms of spending power to the countries economy , and all these guests will spend in resorts and incur a little vat type tax on all their purchases.
But your costs were your mortgage too, hardly fair to say you only let to cover costs when the mortgages are part of this....
well we are all entitled to our opinions, those of us who see the crackdown as unjust and the original letting laws as unjust had the opinion that they could be challenged and reformed.
I can not answer at the moment as to whether I will be able to comply with the requirements of the reformed letting laws. We all have to wait now to see if the reformed laws are going to be sensible and reasonable. For 8 years we have packed our places with happy tourists and improved them along the way. Our record year was ninety odd weeks let for 2 apartments , thanks to internet ads. The current situation of them now being empty at this time of the year is sad for me personally but a far greater tradegy for the canary economy , as the tourists we should be welcoming are now not there and their spending power for the canary economy is not going to be availble.
what we need as a matter of extreme urgency is to get those internet tourists back in my apartments and everyone elses. There is no time to lose to help the canary economy. If the canary government has sensible proposals then I am sure we can all embrace them, if they are genuine in their intentions we can all move forward and get those planes full and flying in again. the ball is in their court , I for one have an open mind at this time, as I said just before , we were getting a good number of guests as it was, and if it aint broke dont try to fix it.
And there we have the nub of Nelson's arguments - first priority is his own income stream, everyone else is an afterthought.
Note there is no mention of his intentions if he doesn't like their intentions.
seanocelt
16-06-2012, 11:46
Incredible aint it!?And BLATANT with it.
But your costs were your mortgage too, hardly fair to say you only let to cover costs when the mortgages are part of this....
I thought you would have something to say about that, well we have been all around the point way back.
To be quite clear then, a lot of private apartment renters charge lower rental rates than sole agent run apartment blocks. The private renters tend to try to cover their outgoing costs and not try to generate a profit from renting. So if the annual costs of renting a one bedroom apartment including mortgage are around 13,000 euros then generally speaking a fully renting owner getting 40 weeks rented @ £ 250 per week would earn £10000 gross. This would not have been enough to cover the costs these past few years given the poor euro exchange rate. At 1.10 euro the owner in this example would be 2000 euros out of pocket. A lot of apartment owners try to get £250 per week , but I know many including us who take less especially for long stays.
Clearly an apartment complex that is in renting as a business needs to cover its costs and make a profit, every business needs to do that. So the example above , which is typical of the renting owner just trying to cover costs, would be not viable. What is clearly needed for the apartment to make a profit is a higher price per week for the rentals. Something like £350 to £ 400 per week would be required.
You can not blame the renting owners for charging what they want to do and being happy if they can just about cover their costs and not make a profit. Equally the apartment blocks running as business's need to make a profit and you can not blame them for having to charge more than the private renters so they can do this. This does reate an odd situation where the business style apartment operators are actually competing against none profit making private renters. There can be few industries that find themselves in that situation, but that is where we are at with apartment letting in the canaries.
Of course covering costs includes hopefully the mortgage, and we are hoping to have a paid off property as the reward for our investment many years in the future. That would be our profit at the end of the day, but as things are now and have been for us these past years , well we dont look for year on year profit.
we have always paid our taxes , both uk and canary ones. we only let to cover our costs so we never generate a profit, well to be frank over the years we have lost money on the apartments on a year by year basis. Before the internet ads we had to pay far more for newspaper advertising and got far fewer bookings. Then with cleaning costs, utilities and repairs , mortgage interest etc you dont earn profit from apartment letting. Thats part of the problem, always get angry sole agents on here complaining about unfair competition from under pricing private apartment. As I have said before , the private apartments are not pricing for a profit so they do charge less per week. The hoped for profit from apartment letting is the apartment, paid for by the renting out at the end of the mortgage, so best you can hope for is a buy to let investment all paid for many years in the future.
regardless of the lack of profit from renting I still favour a legal permit system like portugal, where the private renters have to pay a licence each year of 400 euro to be able to rent out. Regardless of any taxable profit they may or may not make , that way they are all contributing to the tax system of the country they are renting in. Of course the tourists that they are accomodating are vital in terms of spending power to the countries economy , and all these guests will spend in resorts and incur a little vat type tax on all their purchases.
Am I losing the plot or do you have two apartments on the complex.iIther way,as you say, you rent to pay your mortgage which in effect is profit. One day the apartment that you couldn't afford to buy will be yours,thanks to your rental income paying your mortgage.
Am I losing the plot or do you have two apartments on the complex.iIther way,as you say, you rent to pay your mortgage which in effect is profit. One day the apartment that you couldn't afford to buy will be yours,thanks to your rental income paying your mortgage.
While its correct to say the rentals do help to pay the mortgage remember apart from all costs of running the apartment taxes ect you have the mortgage interest so not as lucrative as some think the rental income will never pay all the mortgage or costs your only aloud to claim tax relief on the interest not the capital repayment and yes once the mortgage is paid thats when you see the real profit and stop having to put money towards the costs thats what buy to let is about
People like Nelson on ex tourist complexes should try to regulate there position however it will not be so easy as you will never get everyone on a complex to agree to anything or indeed find a sole agent to take the complex on and Nelson seems to favour licening individual apartments which would require the complex also come up to standard.
The way it works in Cristian Sur is the way forward as far as im concerned the licence holder deals with the tour companies the others deal with the private apartments it works very well but this was set up that way before the 1995 letting law and probably difficult to do this on other complexes as the sole agent(exploiter) would not want to loose his his right to manage all the apartment get a bad one and it can be a nightmare.
So who wants 4000 euro a year from the exploiter yes some are better but thats what ours pay who would spend 160.000 euro to get that return? based on that there needs to be some movement on the sole agent we just have to wait and see if the law will be tweaked dont hold your breath.
Cost of a 1 bedroom apatment on Paloma beach this week (and all of may and june) - 210 pounds per week for 2 people
junglejim
17-06-2012, 01:48
Cost of a 1 bedroom apatment on Paloma beach this week (and all of may and june) - 210 pounds per week for 2 people
Very good - the 2 quietest months of the year - what about the rest of the year?
Very good - the 2 quietest months of the year - what about the rest of the year?
More but averages at around 260 per week year round.
My point was in reference to Nelson "only charging 250 per week to cover costs"....
While its correct to say the rentals do help to pay the mortgage remember apart from all costs of running the apartment taxes ect you have the mortgage interest so not as lucrative as some think the rental income will never pay all the mortgage or costs your only aloud to claim tax relief on the interest not the capital repayment and yes once the mortgage is paid thats when you see the real profit and stop having to put money towards the costs thats what buy to let is about
People like Nelson on ex tourist complexes should try to regulate there position however it will not be so easy as you will never get everyone on a complex to agree to anything or indeed find a sole agent to take the complex on and Nelson seems to favour licening individual apartments which would require the complex also come up to standard.
The way it works in Cristian Sur is the way forward as far as im concerned the licence holder deals with the tour companies the others deal with the private apartments it works very well but this was set up that way before the 1995 letting law and probably difficult to do this on other complexes as the sole agent(exploiter) would not want to loose his his right to manage all the apartment get a bad one and it can be a nightmare.
So who wants 4000 euro a year from the exploiter yes some are better but thats what ours pay who would spend 160.000 euro to get that return? based on that there needs to be some movement on the sole agent we just have to wait and see if the law will be tweaked dont hold your breath.
I Agree, times are much harder now,but most people who bought more than one property, without planning to live in them, did so with the intention of making profit both from rental and inflation.Up until 3/4 years ago,property prices here were increasing at more than 10% per annum and most investors for some strange reason couldn't see the bubble bursting. Thanks to their greed and the immoral banks , we had hugely inflated property prices in Spain and we will all be paying the price for many years to come. Nelson likes to sound badly done to but there is a lot of bad feeling here regarding foreign investors who pushed local people off the property ladder or who,they feel, cause the massive inflation we had during latter years although many local people joined in and bought properties off plan that they couldn't afford to complete on,thus adding to the problem. As has been said many times before,many Spanish /Canarian people read the forum and they just love the likes of Nelson telling them how their country should be run. Rather than help the situation it just makes it worse. It would be like immigrants in the UK (who didn't speak English) writing to the press with suggestions as to how to improve tourism in London.
Angusjim
17-06-2012, 13:52
I Agree, times are much harder now,but most people who bought more than one property, without planning to live in them, did so with the intention of making profit both from rental and inflation.Up until 3/4 years ago,property prices here were increasing at more than 10% per annum and most investors for some strange reason couldn't see the bubble bursting. Thanks to their greed and the immoral banks , we had hugely inflated property prices in Spain and we will all be paying the price for many years to come. Nelson likes to sound badly done to but there is a lot of bad feeling here regarding foreign investors who pushed local people off the property ladder or who,they feel, cause the massive inflation we had during latter years although many local people joined in and bought properties off plan that they couldn't afford to complete on,thus adding to the problem. As has been said many times before,many Spanish /Canarian people read the forum and they just love the likes of Nelson telling them how their country should be run. Rather than help the situation it just makes it worse. It would be like immigrants in the UK (who didn't speak English) writing to the press with suggestions as to how to improve tourism in London.
Did not hear the local population complaining when the billions of Euros poured in to the island from them greedy / nasty foreigners buying property which created plenty of employment & boosted the tax revenues to the island. The government could have at any time put a stop to this but why did they not ? oh yes they could not see the bubble bursting and it saved them having to tackle the biggest problem industry in Tenerife the Black Market and it also helped them introduce some of the craziest employment laws in Europe which will continue to stifle any growth in the legal employement market. Keep in mind the local population voted for the government who allowed all these issues to develop not the nasty / greedy investors.
golf birdie
17-06-2012, 14:37
It would be like immigrants in the UK (who didn't speak English) writing to the press with suggestions as to how to improve tourism in London.
IMO that is who they should listening to as most would have faced the problems that tourist will. I could not
believe at Victoria station and most other places in London where tourists are likely to need help they did not have multi lingual speaking staff:confused: The number of times I saw people trying to get help or advice to be met with ''do you speak English'' was shocking.
Red Devil
17-06-2012, 14:38
Well said Angusjim, getting truly tired now of some of the comments from (mostly) Tenerife residents regarding apartment owners- just try managing without us for a few years and see how the economy copes then.
I have actually worked out what I have contributed to the local economy and its certainly nothing to be ashamed about - working on figures for 2011 my apartment was occupied for 333 days.
Based on 2 people staying I have estimated they spent a total of 100 euro a day between them on food, drink, entertainment and trips, which I think is a very conservative estimate = total given to local businesses of 33,300 euro
A total of 23 different couples stayed, therefore I paid out around 2,000 euro to a local, Canarian employed, cleaning company.
46 aircraft seats were used, again at very conservative estimate of 300 euro per return ticket, total spent with airline 13,300 euro
Money I spent at local businesses with regard to furnishings and repairs around 4000 euro (not taking into account of course the large amount I spent locally when I fully fitted out the apartment initially)
Then there are my accountancy, insurance and bank charges, all local custom again - around 2000 euro.
So... just me and my guests, from just one apartment, spent around 40,000 euro in one year.
If there are 650,0000 thousand of us "illegal owners" then God help the Canarian economy if just a 3rd of the guests from these decide they really don't want to be told where to stay in future and choose to go to a country where they are welcomed.
golf birdie
17-06-2012, 14:40
More but averages at around 260 per week year round.
My point was in reference to Nelson "only charging 250 per week to cover costs"....
how much in peak season....
Well said Angusjim, getting truly tired now of some of the comments from (mostly) Tenerife residents regarding apartment owners- just try managing without us for a few years and see how the economy copes then.
I have actually worked out what I have contributed to the local economy and its certainly nothing to be ashamed about - working on figures for 2011 my apartment was occupied for 333 days.
Based on 2 people staying I have estimated they spent a total of 100 euro a day between them on food, drink, entertainment and trips, which I think is a very conservative estimate = total given to local businesses of 33,300 euro
A total of 23 different couples stayed, therefore I paid out around 2,000 euro to a local, Canarian employed, cleaning company.
46 aircraft seats were used, again at very conservative estimate of 300 euro per return ticket, total spent with airline 13,300 euro
Money I spent at local businesses with regard to furnishings and repairs around 4000 euro (not taking into account of course the large amount I spent locally when I fully fitted out the apartment initially)
Then there are my accountancy, insurance and bank charges, all local custom again - around 2000 euro.
So... just me and my guests, from just one apartment, spent around 40,000 euro in one year.
If there are 650,0000 thousand of us "illegal owners" then God help the Canarian economy if just a 3rd of the guests from these decide they really don't want to be told where to stay in future and choose to go to a country where they are welcomed.
Plus €18,000 bonus?
Red Devil
17-06-2012, 15:38
Ah, was expecting you - talking in riddles again, or are you just trying to find out my earnings? If someone I didn't know asked me that face to face I would tell them to butt out:D
Plus €18,000 bonus?
And it became wrong to make a profit when exactly?
There appears to be a holier than thou attitude on this thread. Why are the people who rent out holiday apartments any different to the people who left the UK to live and work in Tenerife?
There is a market for it and it's no different than setting yourself up in business doing anything. If you do it there's a good chance that a local person will be displaced eg. Canarian electrician.
Nelson tends to put long winded arguments which leaves him wide open to unnecessary derogatory remarks but in actual fact he's providing a service to the likes of myself who, having been my own boss since I was 17, don't like being told where I can stay on my holidays.
Stuff the law, and stuff anyone who thinks they can judge me for how I take my holidays.
Please step forward any poster who hasn't benefitted from holidaymakers.
To be fair - the answer to the above post lies entirely in whether your apartment is in a residential or touristic complex and the taxes paid
seanocelt
17-06-2012, 16:21
Isnt the crux this?; if someone bought on a residential and let out to tourists and knew about the law but thought they would get away with it, then why blame everyone else, especially the gov........if someone bought on residential and let to tourists but didnt know/were not told of the law by agent/advised letting was legal, then sympathy is due. Nothing holier than thou here.
Red Devil
17-06-2012, 16:48
Isnt the crux this?; if someone bought on a residential and let out to tourists and knew about the law but thought they would get away with it, then why blame everyone else, especially the gov........if someone bought on residential and let to tourists but didnt know/were not told of the law by agent/advised letting was legal, then sympathy is due. Nothing holier than thou here.
My point was that whatever your feelings over the rights and wrongs of the situation, can you possibly deny tourism in Tenerife is going to suffer from it all? My figures show how much income one apartment let can generate. If this income stops,most of you in Tenerife are the ones who are going to lose out surely? - it is the tourists who mostly come to see you as an entertainer Seanocelt. Less tourists, less bars open.
If the government have their way and more and more people are in the all-inclusive hotels, all people do then is stay in there at night to get their moneysworth of alcohol, just see if there is a spare seat now in the entertainment lounges at Paradise Park, as an example.
Private lettings on a tourist complex is equally illegal you know, yet they dont incur your wrath.
Everyone would like to be legal and everyone would be then be happy with plenty of income for the islands
There is absolutely no argument as to whether or not the law is being broken and has come back to bite some people on the backside.
That doesn't mean that they are to be treated like vermin. Same applies to me if I stay in one.
There for the grace of god go all of us. I wouldn't like to be in their position and I'm sure none of you guys would.
I can't believe that anyone thinks it's good for the island. The laws could turn against anyone at any time.
We've seen it recently with the "businesses in basement" thing. Not heard much about that lately but again I'd be gutted if it happened to one of you guys. :respect:
seanocelt
17-06-2012, 17:15
Not a chance that i will disagree, Red Devil, and Toto, already there is a drop in numbers in bars and restaurants due to the "scare" going on. Less punters = less bars is a real possibility. But we cant do much about it. The forum is great for getting opinions/advice. Even for letting off steam. But the continual "the governments making a mess of things" posts will do little to change it, and constant denial by some that "we did nothing wrong" will do even less.
Red Devil; " private lettings on a tourist complex is equally illegal?" Eh? Not sure i get that one, what do you mean there?.
Red Devil
17-06-2012, 17:22
Not a chance that i will disagree, Red Devil, and Toto, already there is a drop in numbers in bars and restaurants due to the "scare" going on. Less punters = less bars is a real possibility. But we cant do much about it. The forum is great for getting opinions/advice. Even for letting off steam. But the continual "the governments making a mess of things" posts will do little to change it, and constant denial by some that "we did nothing
wrong" will do even less.
Red Devil; " private lettings on a tourist complex is equally illegal?" Eh? Not sure i get that one, what do you mean there?.
I mean that it is illegal to let out your apartment privately - it should only be done through the sole agent when on a tourist complex. I do believe some people can avoid paying tax when doing this:D
seanocelt
17-06-2012, 18:59
Im not sure thats spot on, think there can be a sole agent that keeps things up to spec but you can do rental element yourself?
Red Devil
17-06-2012, 19:09
Im not sure thats spot on, think there can be a sole agent that keeps things up to spec but you can do rental element yourself?
Not legally, no- but as Loaded will verify, some agents overlook this. Others don't. Just ask the owners of places like Santa Maria & Panorama in Las Americas
Yeah i think legally you can't do it yourself as you'd need a license to be an intermediary (travel agent, tour operator etc)
seanocelt
18-06-2012, 03:32
Hmmmmm..ok.
Fixer seems to do his own bookings and I'm guessing he has a good relationship with the agent.
But with that in mind, how would the agent make a living? Unless of course there's a commission involved?
This entire situation has got me thinking.
There is nothing new in the Canarian Government having a "vision" or policy toward tourism. Back as far as the mid 90s the islands (Tenerife & Gran Canaria particularly) were becoming tainted by their then rapidly growing reputation. They were seen as a developing market for the young with the likes of Veronicas heavily featured on TV as a sea of alcoholic ferver, and endless tales in the Press about time-share touts and the way visitors were virtually kidnapped on the streets and subjected to high pressure sales tactics.
I didn't live here then, but was a regular visitor, and I remember clearly many conversations with people who had been brought up here about the way the islands did not want to become the next Ibiza and the politicians wanted to create and develop a year-round family holiday destination and were determined not to lose control.
It was about this time the letting laws were being drawn up as part of the controls over the type of accomodation the Government wanted to see being offered to visitors, whilst at the same time other laws were being introduced (mostly H&S related) to at best try to control the likes of Veronicas and make it harder for the clubs to survive, or if they couldn't be killed off, at least change/improve the way they operated.
Back then the internet, particularly here on the islands, hardly existed and it could be argued that very few of us could have foreseen the impact it would have on our lives and for certain the Canarians with precious little knowledge or experience of it, had even less.
It is not true that the letting laws were unused once they had been brought in, there are records of fines being issued between the passing of the law and recent times, but what has happened is that it is only recently that the Government here has recognised the real power of the internet and forced into using it themselves for the dissemination of information and in this particular case the use of it by individuals for holiday offerings. It is this, I suspect, that has brought home to them how the internet could be, and to a great extend is, subversive to its long term plans.
There is an element of "bugger we are broke how can we get some money in", but I suspect the real issue behind all this is that many of those in power simply had little or no idea of how their "vision" was being affected.
There is no doubt that the control systems put in place for ensuring standards were born of an older time, and need updating so that owners have more control over their property, which is where there is a degree of sympathy with the Nelsons of the world who have fallen foul of exploitation in the true sense of the word, but way back at the beginning of all this, there was also an understanding that those who live and work here also need somewhere to live and have every right and expectation, as elsewhere in the civilised world, that they could enjoy their existance alongside, but away from tourists here solely to enjoy themselves.
I believe the Government felt quite confident that because there were controls over touristic complexes and there seemed to be enough beds to go around, the level of letting on residential came as a huge shock to them when the real extent of it came to light 4 or 5 years ago (incidentally about the same time as the internet really arrived here and they became aware of its power).
In a country with an already huge black-market economy it was quickly realised how dangerous to the "vision" private letting in residential could be and how lucrative it could be for those engaging in it.
It is quite clear from the Spanish press over the weekend that the Government here intends to maintain and develop its "vision" for tourism and "uncontrolled" letting is not part of that vision and is something it will continue to clamp down on. They have announced they realise some changes to the way touristic complexes are expoited and for that matter have realised that the quality of the offer at some leaves a lot to be desired. They appear to be open to the concept of some "villas" being brough into the touristic offer in a controlled way, but what is for certain is that any form of letting (other than long-term) of residentially classified property is not now, or in the future, an area the Government will permit to grow, and shrinking it to nothing is their plan.
Many will feel this is an unfair vendetta against them, but had they taken the time and trouble to have fully researched their residential purchase before going ahead, the reality would (or should) have become apparent. That of clearly defined classifications (touristic/residential) and a clear set of rules and regulations governing their use.
Many will feel this level of control to be out of place in today's world. Perhaps elements of it are, but it is their country, tourism is their main industry and clearly the Government do not want to risk a return to the Veronicas chaos and Time Share kidnappings of old.
You really can't blame them - other than for not realising that as time-share sales began to dwindle many of those involved would move onto something else - actual real-estate, and as with many time-share owners now handing back their weeks because they can no longer afford the maintenance, many owners now realise that the income they were "assured of" from lettings is far from the reality (legally at least).
I've said it before, and will again. I hope above hope that the review of the letting laws which has been announced already is extended to bring Estate agents to account. There are some (especially on here) who I know do explain the rules to their clients properly. There are many though, a good number of whom are long-gone, who don't (or didn't).
Fixer seems to do his own bookings and I'm guessing he has a good relationship with the agent.
But with that in mind, how would the agent make a living? Unless of course there's a commission involved?
In our complex there existed more than one agent before 1995 so a bit unusual my apartment is looked after cleaned and maintained by the onsite agent reception looks after the clients when they arrive and the apartment is registered by the license holder with the tourist board when we were visited by the inspectors they dont seem to have a problem with this arrangement and hotels Gestion dont have a problem with it so legal or not no ones been fined.
seanocelt
18-06-2012, 11:45
In our complex there existed more than one agent before 1995 so a bit unusual my apartment is looked after cleaned and maintained by the onsite agent reception looks after the clients when they arrive and the apartment is registered by the license holder with the tourist board when we were visited by the inspectors they dont seem to have a problem with this arrangement and hotels Gestion dont have a problem with it so legal or not no ones been fined.
As i KNOW also happens elsewhere.
Red Devil
18-06-2012, 12:15
As i KNOW also happens elsewhere.
Never said it doesnt happen Seanocelt, what I was pointing out was that when everyone shouts about perceived tax evasion they always talk about "residential" and I was just saying it can happen in tourist complexes also.
Lots of sole agents are happy with what they have and turn a blind eye, therefore the owner can carry on advertising their own place privately. I know quite a few - they only manage to fill theirs about 6 weeks a year!!!! :whistle:
seanocelt
18-06-2012, 14:20
And i know a few who would not have 6 spare available weeks!
Red Devil
18-06-2012, 16:37
And i know a few who would not have 6 spare available weeks!
Sorry, tongue in cheek, meant they declare to the taxman it was only occupied 6 weeks a year.
I'm feeling a bit giddy this afternoon:devil2:
seanocelt
18-06-2012, 17:32
Sorry, tongue in cheek, meant they declare to the taxman it was only occupied 6 weeks a year.
I'm feeling a bit giddy this afternoon:devil2:
Didnt spot the whistling "tongue in cheek" icon. Agreed.
Just when you thought it had gone quiet, 3 more fines issued on today's boletin.
One is on el beril for not being with the license holder (Kurt Konrad).
Ones a Spanish guy too, i swear ALOTCA told me it was a zenophobic campaign against foreigners....
junglejim
19-06-2012, 13:41
I do remember at the Alotca meeting the question being asked if it was only "Johnny Foreigner" that was being fined - I don't remember Alotca saying it was Xenophobic but that they would examine the range of those fined ?
Being Pedantic - Kurt Konrad died a while ago , Roberto his son is carrying on the business - he is sole agent in Club Atlantis but appears only to have 48% of required support for being sole agent yet he is prepared to denounce people for illegal practices ! Tut Tut!
I do remember at the Alotca meeting the question being asked if it was only "Johnny Foreigner" that was being fined - I don't remember Alotca saying it was Xenophobic but that they would examine the range of those fined ?
Being Pedantic - Kurt Konrad died a while ago , Roberto his son is carrying on the business - he is sole agent in Club Atlantis but appears only to have 48% of required support for being sole agent yet he is prepared to denounce people for illegal practices ! Tut Tut!
The cabildo do let you continue with less than 50% in certain cases.
Some of the top table at ALOTCA actually said they were pursuing the angle that it was a xenophobic witch hunt, i actually said at the first meeting that it would be a stupid argument and I don't recall them disagreeing...
The cabildo do let you continue with less than 50% in certain cases.
Some of the top table at ALOTCA actually said they were pursuing the angle that it was a xenophobic witch hunt, i actually said at the first meeting that it would be a stupid argument and I don't recall them disagreeing...
the crackdown is not a xenophobic witch hunt. The fact is though, simply because so many brits have bought the dream second home in the sun, we were best placed with our property boom in the uk, brits are at the moment the number one illegal renters. Most of the fines we know of now are from the uk based internet advert sites , used by the brit illegal owners. I am sure the canary government are not doing it out of racial hatred, for them its about hotel protectionism, but it makes the crackdown a bit easier when its an attack on mainly foreigners. It becomes easy then to avoid domestic opposition to the crackdown by portraying it as just a bunch of foreigners raking money in and not paying tax. This issue is not even now recognised with the majority of canarians as a disaster for their economy and unemployed. People are naturally a little cold to foreigners , without being insanely racist , so it is helpfull to the canary government to carry out the crackdown because so many illegal renters are brits. When all the brits have sold up and left the islands they will be able to start on the russians who no doubt will have bought up all the apartments and carried on renting illegally.
I do remember at the Alotca meeting the question being asked if it was only "Johnny Foreigner" that was being fined - I don't remember Alotca saying it was Xenophobic but that they would examine the range of those fined ?
Being Pedantic - Kurt Konrad died a while ago , Roberto his son is carrying on the business - he is sole agent in Club Atlantis but appears only to have 48% of required support for being sole agent yet he is prepared to denounce people for illegal practices ! Tut Tut!
He's got about 32% in Altamira and that doesn't seem to phase him either!!!
junglejim
19-06-2012, 16:50
He's got about 32% in Altamira and that doesn't seem to phase him either!!!
I wonder who's getting his brown envelopes ? So some 1995 rules CAN be circumvented then ?
Angusjim
19-06-2012, 16:56
I wonder who's getting his brown envelopes ? So some 1995 rules CAN be circumvented then ?
How dare you cast doubt on the integrity & honesty of the Canarian officials shame on you :nono::laugh:
I wonder who's getting his brown envelopes ? So some 1995 rules CAN be circumvented then ?
sole agents carrying on with less than 51% just shows how crazy and unworkable the system is and always was. So if a complex with 51% is involved with a sole agent all is fine until one day there is less than 51%. This could occur because some owners get fed up with renting and drop out, or others sell and the new owners dont rent. At that point all letting has to stop, so many bookings have to be cancelled immediatley. great publicity for the canaries.
maybe the new reforms to make tourist letting in touristic complex's compulsary and to ban residential living in them is seeking to sort this problem out?
The whole system is barking mad hotel protectionism, lets hope alotcas lawyers can sort this legally at europe this time.
Interestingly, I wonder if the threatened reforms to clean up the sole agent set up might spoil it for the ones who are
"client friendly"?
Obviously the gentleman at Altamira is bending the rules and might face a clean up but to mention Fixer yet again, he and the agent are trundling along quite happilly with all parties having no objections. A clampdown might well spoil that situation so as to make a level playing field. That would be shame because it's a good example of how things should be.
As the rules are made, I'm sure people will find a way around them as time goes on. In a lot of places agents will need to start working with owners a lot more as they come under scrutiny.
golf birdie
19-06-2012, 17:35
the more I hear about the sole agent the worse it sounds. IMO if you want to be a sole agent you should buy a hotel.
Interestingly, I wonder if the threatened reforms to clean up the sole agent set up might spoil it for the ones who are
"client friendly"?
Obviously the gentleman at Altamira is bending the rules and might face a clean up but to mention Fixer yet again, he and the agent are trundling along quite happilly with all parties having no objections. A clampdown might well spoil that situation so as to make a level playing field. That would be shame because it's a good example of how things should be.
As the rules are made, I'm sure people will find a way around them as time goes on. In a lot of places agents will need to start working with owners a lot more as they come under scrutiny.
I warned the many sole agents on here not to crow about incresed bookings due to the crackdown. They were not meant to get more customers, that was for the hotels. now they are going to get re furb compulsary or be fined!
I warned the many sole agents on here not to crow about incresed bookings due to the crackdown. They were not meant to get more customers, that was for the hotels. now they are going to get re furb compulsary or be fined!
Thanks for quoting me in on that dig at the agents Nelson..lol Now they'll hate me aswell..:laugh:
There already are reforms for
The sole agents, all apartments and hotels have to adhere to the new tourist law from oct 2010 to reach 3 stars or else remain in the old key system .... So it's unfair to say there aren't any new Standards for Legal Complexes to keep up with.
There already are reforms for
The sole agents, all apartments and hotels have to adhere to the new tourist law from oct 2010 to reach 3 stars or else remain in the old key system .... So it's unfair to say there aren't any new Standards for Legal Complexes to keep up with.
sorry for saying unfair things, we cant have that can we, what with the mad nasty canary government going round giving out massive fines with no advance warning whatsoever.
We have to consider the many settled residential people who have been living happily and blissfully unaware of their position on the dormant touristic complex's now. They are the ones I feel sorry for what with these, imo unfair new reforms.
Take the nice couple above our apartment for example. Both in their early seventies now, they holidayed in our complex for years, family holidays with their kids. They bought the dream apartment just before us about 9 years ago , they have never rented it out. Only thing to disturb their paradise has been us sending the odd set of nutters out below them, you know, beer monsters returning in the early hours and having a fight. Still it does provide a bit of gossip and breaks the cycle of just reading Islands connections in the sun all day. Now though they are going to be evicted, all their old furniture is going to be burnt in the street and their lovely apartment is going to filled up with tourists.
Thats what I call unfair!
No warning whatsoever ? ???
Not even you believe that statement
Lol..at least the posts are getting shorter..
I'm not understanding why the oldies would be evicted? They own the apartment. Why do they have to go?
Ha ha I didn't read the bit about evicted oldies and burning furniture in the street! I tend to stop reading Nelsons posts when I reach the first stupid statement - first paragraph usually.....
sorry for saying unfair things, we cant have that can we, what with the mad nasty canary government going round giving out massive fines with no advance warning whatsoever.
We have to consider the many settled residential people who have been living happily and blissfully unaware of their position on the dormant touristic complex's now. They are the ones I feel sorry for what with these, imo unfair new reforms.
Take the nice couple above our apartment for example. Both in their early seventies now, they holidayed in our complex for years, family holidays with their kids. They bought the dream apartment just before us about 9 years ago , they have never rented it out. Only thing to disturb their paradise has been us sending the odd set of nutters out below them, you know, beer monsters returning in the early hours and having a fight. Still it does provide a bit of gossip and breaks the cycle of just reading Islands connections in the sun all day. Now though they are going to be evicted, all their old furniture is going to be burnt in the street and their lovely apartment is going to filled up with tourists.
Thats what I call unfair!
Firstly I hope to government are reading your post! Secondly Jose Escobedo has been advising owners of the potential fines for many years - check out his web site.
Sorry guys, just to clarify
Am I correct in thinking that with the "dormant touristic" set up any agent would require 100% of the owners to register. because if that is the case surely the people Nelson is currently feeling sorry for might well be the people who stop him progresssing. Or have I got it wrong?
junglejim
20-06-2012, 09:46
Sorry guys, just to clarify
Am I correct in thinking that with the "dormant touristic" set up any agent would require 100% of the owners to register. because if that is the case surely the people Nelson is currently feeling sorry for might well be the people who stop him progresssing. Or have I got it wrong?
As far as I am aware - the advice being given to our President for a "dormant touristic" being resurrected is that 50%+1 is what is required , residential owners on a Touristic complex do not need to be part of this "vote" .
The issue of what they are expected to contribute towards the Touristic costs of the complex is a whole different argument though! ( Reception, administration , pool attendants , upgrade )
Lol..at least the posts are getting shorter..
I'm not understanding why the oldies would be evicted? They own the apartment. Why do they have to go?
it seems part of the new reforms is to get the dormant toristic letting again to combat the illegal residential letting. It seems to read that failure to touristic let on a touristic complex is not to be allowed, and with that residential living on touristic spots. We are 75 % renting so no panic on numbers for us.
Watch out for the new 18,000 euro fines for the new canary government crime of living residentially on a tourist complex!
Best for oldies to start acting like tourists, inflatable sharks and other useful decoys need to around the apartment at all times etc.
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No warning whatsoever ? ???
Not even you believe that statement
by uk legal norms, any government legal enforcement would first be by warning either verbally or by letter. No one would just be sent a fine without the oppurtunity to cease the allegded illegal activity or to seek to regularise it by obtaining proper licensing.
A press anouncement in my book is not advance warning.
junglejim
20-06-2012, 12:40
Nelson you don't half talk some pish!
Angusjim
20-06-2012, 13:20
Nelson you don't half talk some pish!
Don't you just love these quaint Scottish sayings :laugh:
seanocelt
20-06-2012, 13:24
Ha Ha v Quaint AJ, though JJ is right, this is not the UK, you can have your bank account embargoed for trivial things, and you will NOT get a friendly letter advising you of it. In my personal experience i had to pay to get my own money back for the town hall's error, did they warn me? Not a hope.
golf birdie
20-06-2012, 13:26
Ha Ha v Quaint AJ, though JJ is right, this is not the UK, you can have your bank account embargoed for trivial things, and you will NOT get a friendly letter advising you of it. In my personal experience i had to pay to get my own money back for the town hall's error, did they warn me? Not a hope.
still does not make it right.
junglejim
20-06-2012, 13:56
Don't you just love these quaint Scottish sayings :laugh:
AJ I can do in in Aberdeen accent too !
"Nelson yer talkin some pash! Fit a loada crap!"
Angusjim
20-06-2012, 14:40
AJ I can do in in Aberdeen accent too !
"Nelson yer talkin some pash! Fit a loada crap!"
Thats nae bad min
Firstly I hope to government are reading your post! Secondly Jose Escobedo has been advising owners of the potential fines for many years - check out his web site.
the protectionist canary government are welcome to read all my posts. I hope that that senor paulino riviero and the ashotel minister both read what I write, as it goes all around the world on the internet. I hope that they both reflect on what I write as the canary unemployment figures rise and visitor numbers decline.
Or should I be afraid to write about them because they are un democratic authoritarian bandits? Is it unwise to try to have free speech in the canaries?
If ya dunna like it love s'off
p riviero
x
OMG Nelson are you for real?
it seems part of the new reforms is to get the dormant toristic letting again to combat the illegal residential letting. It seems to read that failure to touristic let on a touristic complex is not to be allowed, and with that residential living on touristic spots. We are 75 % renting so no panic on numbers for us.
Watch out for the new 18,000 euro fines for the new canary government crime of living residentially on a tourist complex!
Best for oldies to start acting like tourists, inflatable sharks and other useful decoys need to around the apartment at all times etc.
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by uk legal norms, any government legal enforcement would first be by warning either verbally or by letter. No one would just be sent a fine without the oppurtunity to cease the allegded illegal activity or to seek to regularise it by obtaining proper licensing.
A press anouncement in my book is not advance warning.
Nelson, I will repeat this again - As your apartment(s) are in Tenerife, YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH UK LAW, you are subject to Canarian law whether you like it or not.
If you are not happy with that set-up, you should sell up and move to Portugal as you seem to think that their system is better.
I'm sure once in Portugal Nelson would have some opinions on the laws there as well when she finds they don't suit her entirely....
seanocelt
21-06-2012, 01:59
head/wall/brick/banging/Nelson/Hughesby/others/sand/head/death/boring/horse/dead/flogging/bollox.
Angusjim
21-06-2012, 10:52
the protectionist canary government are welcome to read all my posts. I hope that that senor paulino riviero and the ashotel minister both read what I write, as it goes all around the world on the internet. I hope that they both reflect on what I write as the canary unemployment figures rise and visitor numbers decline.
Or should I be afraid to write about them because they are un democratic authoritarian bandits? Is it unwise to try to have free speech in the canaries?
Woolfie Smith lives on "power to the people":laugh:
Nelson, when did the cuddly lovely UK Government last send you or anyone you know a jolly polite little letter asking you if you would be kind enough to stop speeding, prior to that lovely little letter arriving on the doormat one frosty morning??
Lark - Pill - ark
golf birdie
21-06-2012, 11:14
Nelson, when did the cuddly lovely UK Government last send you or anyone you know a jolly polite little letter asking you if you would be kind enough to stop speeding, prior to that lovely little letter arriving on the doormat one frosty morning??
Lark - Pill - ark
its quite commom in the UK to have warnings given to businesses before fines are issued. A lot of the time you are given notice to close and if you fail to do so you are then fined.
Angusjim
21-06-2012, 11:27
We keep on hearing about the fines but does anyone know for a fact about anyone who has actually had to pay any of the fines handed out yet?
golf birdie
21-06-2012, 11:33
We keep on hearing about the fines but does anyone know for a fact about anyone who has actually had to pay any of the fines handed out yet?
everyone I know of (about 12) have been cancelled.
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 12:32
Those I know directly who recieved notifications of fines in May/June 2011 have now been told by by their lwyaers the fines have now lapsed.
I have also been reading some of the info on the proposed draft of the new laws...
which, according to some commentators, it seems to suggest that owners on touristic sites will be required to register (with an agency) and (a) meet minimum standards (b) be required to make the property available for touristic lettings and (c) they will not be allowed to use the property for residential use.
Angusjim
21-06-2012, 12:43
Those I know directly who recieved notifications of fines in May/June 2011 have now been told by by their lwyaers the fines have now lapsed.
I have also been reading some of the info on the proposed draft of the new laws...
which, according to some commentators, it seems to suggest that owners on touristic sites will be required to register (with an agency) and (a) meet minimum standards (b) be required to make the property available for touristic lettings and (c) they will not be allowed to use the property for residential use.
Well that should spark another 100 posts of lively debate :crazy:
seanocelt
21-06-2012, 12:46
Sounds even dafter, over to you Nelson- would you like to rent but be told YOU cant use it?
Sounds even dafter, over to you Nelson- would you like to rent but be told YOU cant use it?
ha ha, but I got abuse yesterday when I broke the story, yes its illegal residenting now 18,000 fines for that too. we better not debate 100 posts on here though off topic, this needs a new thread,
the tenerife illegal residenting thread!
Should this be true, and it sounds a bit dubious, I would think it would only apply to property purchased after the date of the amendment!
its worse than you think, I warned you sole agents not to crow about your increased bookings, those punters were meant for the hotels, this new law is going to make touristic apartments refurb big time , or a new agent will be installed to carry out the work!
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its worse than you think, I warned you sole agents not to crow about your increased bookings, those punters were meant for the hotels, this new law is going to make touristic apartments refurb big time , or a new agent will be installed to carry out the work!
it reads like touristic apartments are more or less going to be nationalised, the canary government is going to order everththing to be done their way. Its like the whole sad and predictble failure of the sole agent system is going to be reversed by government dicktat. They are going to force us to accept the unworkable system.
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Should this be true, and it sounds a bit dubious, I would think it would only apply to property purchased after the date of the amendment!
you wrong there, the law is talking about compulsary refurbing apartments that should have been in touristic use all these years.
its worse than you think, I warned you sole agents not to crow about your increased bookings, those punters were meant for the hotels, this new law is going to make touristic apartments refurb big time , or a new agent will be installed to carry out the work!
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
it reads like touristic apartments are more or less going to be nationalised, the canary government is going to order everththing to be done their way. Its like the whole sad and predictble failure of the sole agent system is going to be reversed by government dicktat. They are going to force us to accept the unworkable system.
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Oh no!! I thought this thread had explored every avenue and turned over every stone. Here we go then guys let get going on 'Illegal lettings the Final Frontier.'
If they do nationalise my apartment I will definitely be removing my flat screen T.V.
you wrong there, the law is talking about compulsary refurbing apartments that should have been in touristic use all these years.
Oh no!! I thought this thread had explored every avenue and turned over every stone. Here we go then guys let get going on 'Illegal lettings the Final Frontier.'
If they do nationalise my apartment I will definitely be removing my flat screen T.V.
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 14:36
Should this be true, and it sounds a bit dubious, I would think it would only apply to property purchased after the date of the amendment!
Cant be certain but it is being suggested that they are applying this new law to all touristic sites including the so called "dormant" touristic sites.
It would seem if the commentators are correct that they dont want these sites to be "residential" by default and that the proposed new laws will require them to be brought up to a minimum set standard at the owners cost and that residential use ie long term lettings will be prohibited on such sites.
Those I know directly who recieved notifications of fines in May/June 2011 have now been told by by their lwyaers the fines have now lapsed.
I have also been reading some of the info on the proposed draft of the new laws...
which, according to some commentators, it seems to suggest that owners on touristic sites will be required to register (with an agency) and (a) meet minimum standards (b) be required to make the property available for touristic lettings and (c) they will not be allowed to use the property for residential use.
Nelson,
I was only referring to the bold bit above.
The minimum standard is already in place for apartments that have to be inspected for registration, currently those that do not reach the standard get refused and are not permitted to let. Do you think these apartments will be forced to spend monies?
Do you have a link to a official site that is making these claims reference the changes in touristic law?
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 14:57
http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/noticias/?module=1&page=nota.htm&id=149477
The discussion is on JA`s website and the comments appear to be from local native speakers. Granted this is being influenced by local newspaper articles
http://www.canarias7.es/articulo.cfm?id=264746
Those I know directly who recieved notifications of fines in May/June 2011 have now been told by by their lwyaers the fines have now lapsed.
I have also been reading some of the info on the proposed draft of the new laws...
which, according to some commentators, it seems to suggest that owners on touristic sites will be required to register (with an agency) and (a) meet minimum standards (b) be required to make the property available for touristic lettings and (c) they will not be allowed to use the property for residential use.
This part isn't unique to this proposal.
In the UK, there is already similar legislation on holiday parks which prevents you from buying property and living in it permanently.
There was a bit about it on the BBC recently where people had been sold the property on various sites on the basis that it was OK to use it as a residential property and they discovered after they had purchased it that they could only live in it for 9 or 10 months.
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 15:04
The minimum standard is already in place for apartments that have to be inspected for registration, currently those that do not reach the standard get refused and are not permitted to let. Do you think these apartments will be forced to spend monies?
Yes inspections do take place on tourisitc sites that have retained their status.
I am reading the comments has suggesting that the "dormant" tourisitc sites are not currently inspected and in effect have reverted to a residential one by defualt andf that the new draft proposals seek to address.
it sort of makes some sense.
They would then have clearly defined legal touristic sites and reforming the dormant sites would increase availability and that only residential sites would then be able to attract long term lettings.
Nelson,
I was only referring to the bold bit above.
The minimum standard is already in place for apartments that have to be inspected for registration, currently those that do not reach the standard get refused and are not permitted to let. Do you think these apartments will be forced to spend monies?
Do you have a link to a official site that is making these claims reference the changes in touristic law?
the info went out on the JA site at the weekend. At first it was seen as an alotca early victory, there are going to be changes to sole agency etc. Then its been in the canary press and the spanish are telling us what it means. Now it reads more like this may have been planned by the canary government all along from the beginning of the crackdown. If you like the fining we have seen so far being phase one and this new draft law is phase 2.
What they are saying is that all the illegal residential letting has come about because so much touristic apartments have gone residential. So the obvious solution is to ban the residential living in touristic places and compel them to get back on with touristic letting as they were originally intended for all those years ago. Its basically a death or glory stand for the whole mad system. Its like they are now saying this is what we wanted in 1995, we never wanted residents in touristics, well today we will get this sorted. They also are saying all places will have to be refurbed or agents changed if they refuse.
Hence my concern yesterday for my residential neighbours who now face eviction and possible fines, plus their furniture will be burnt in the street.
Go to the JA site and read the reactions to the draft law, its all on there.
Nelson,
I was only referring to the bold bit above.
The minimum standard is already in place for apartments that have to be inspected for registration, currently those that do not reach the standard get refused and are not permitted to let. Do you think these apartments will be forced to spend monies?
Do you have a link to a official site that is making these claims reference the changes in touristic law?Nelsons only link is to planet zog!!!!!
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 15:19
This appears to be the bit in the offical press realse in the BOC
“Otro de los desafíos que aborda la nueva regulación es la reconducción de la residencialización de los establecimientos turísticos, que afecta a varias zonas de nuestros núcleos turísticos.”
This is being taken to mean (and the comments appear to be coming from local native speakers)
That the dormant toruristic sites will be required to revert back to touristic use only, residential use by default will be prohibited and upgradings and refurbishments deemed necessary will be rquired.
This part isn't unique to this proposal.
In the UK, there is already similar legislation on holiday parks which prevents you from buying property and living in it permanently.
There was a bit about it on the BBC recently where people had been sold the property on various sites on the basis that it was OK to use it as a residential property and they discovered after they had purchased it that they could only live in it for 9 or 10 months.
the uk law is more of a planning dodge. caravan parks can get planning if they are for tourist use, often conditioned at 10 months of the year. No residential use would ever be allowed. What happens is residents buy them anyway but the whole site is then closed down every year Jan and feb. In uk councils could not grant for caravan parks in green belt for residents.
Some swallows are caravan residents , out in the sun for the two month shut down period. So Bobmac not really a proper comparison with the canary new draft law.
The canary draft law would be like Blackpool council evicting a street of residents and ordering that the houses now have to be holiday lets!
Angusjim
21-06-2012, 15:27
http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/noticias/?module=1&page=nota.htm&id=149477
The discussion is on JA`s website and the comments appear to be from local native speakers. Granted this is being influenced by local newspaper articles
http://www.canarias7.es/articulo.cfm?id=264746
You would think they would write important things like this in English typical of the Spanish :whistle::whistle:
the uk law is more of a planning dodge. caravan parks can get planning if they are for tourist use, often conditioned at 10 months of the year. No residential use would ever be allowed. What happens is residents buy them anyway but the whole site is then closed down every year Jan and feb. In uk councils could not grant for caravan parks in green belt for residents.
Some swallows are caravan residents , out in the sun for the two month shut down period. So Bobmac not really a proper comparison with the canary new draft law.
The canary draft law would be like Blackpool council evicting a street of residents and ordering that the houses now have to be holiday lets!
The sites the BBC were looking at were actually open 12 months of the year but the owners couldn't actually live in them for more than 9 or 10 months - they had to move out for a period of time and then move back in.
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 15:33
La normativa en marcha incide en las áreas convertidas con el paso del tiempo en residenciales: declara el deber de atenerse al uso efectivo que ostenten las parcelas turísticas según el planeamiento y las autorizaciones obtenidas”.
"The rule insists on the obligation to respect the specific usage of the plots of land where complexes are located, according to the urban plan and the obtained authorizations.”
the commentators are saying this means dormant or lapsed touristic sites could not be used for residential purposes by default simply because the sole agency has ceased and that the intention is the community will be required to reinstate a sole explotator and refurbish the complex.
The sites the BBC were looking at were actually open 12 months of the year but the owners couldn't actually live in them for more than 9 or 10 months - they had to move out for a period of time and then move back in.
think you may be wrong there Bobmac. what would be the point of that if the site was still open?
maybe its the same planning condition I am telling you about and it says that the caravans must not be occupied more than 10 months per year. However instead of properly closing for 2 set months the site owners are all trying a dodge by interpretting it as any two months, the important thing being some sort of break so that it remains touristic rather than permanent residential.
As I posted yesterday , the tenerife touristic residents may be able to blag things by posing as tourists in their apartments. They may need a decoy internet ad with a touristic calendar now to avoid prosecution.
the uk law is more of a planning dodge. caravan parks can get planning if they are for tourist use, often conditioned at 10 months of the year. No residential use would ever be allowed. What happens is residents buy them anyway but the whole site is then closed down every year Jan and feb. In uk councils could not grant for caravan parks in green belt for residents.
Some swallows are caravan residents , out in the sun for the two month shut down period. So Bobmac not really a proper comparison with the canary new draft law.
The canary draft law would be like Blackpool council evicting a street of residents and ordering that the houses now have to be holiday lets!
You're the one that's always banging on about how UK law wouldn't allow the situation you have on Tenerife because of this law to happen.
I am merely pointing out that in actual fact law, in the UK there are actually similar legal problems regarding residential and tourist letting when it comes to controlling residential owners on touristic sites to the problems which will be faced by residential owners in tourist complexes on Tenerife if these new proposals are actually implemented.
I suspect they probably have similar rules in Portugal as well.
Taken from "Canarias7.es"
"It also provides a simplified summary procedure for the rehabilitation and avoiding red tape among several administrations through a single window".
Does this apply to the touristic complexes where the sole agent has appointed different management companies? or am I reading it wrong?
the uk law is more of a planning dodge. caravan parks can get planning if they are for tourist use, often conditioned at 10 months of the year. No residential use would ever be allowed. What happens is residents buy them anyway but the whole site is then closed down every year Jan and feb. In uk councils could not grant for caravan parks in green belt for residents.
Some swallows are caravan residents , out in the sun for the two month shut down period. So Bobmac not really a proper comparison with the canary new draft law.
The canary draft law would be like Blackpool council evicting a street of residents and ordering that the houses now have to be holiday lets!
As a Caravan Park operator in the UK I can tell you catagorically that there are Holiday Park Licences (which can even be issued for 12 months holidaying) and Residential Park Licences (which are covered under the Housing Act). Anyone buying on a Holiday Park are required to produce evidence of residence (utility bills etc) but this residence can be in another Country. Clearly anyone living on a 'Park Home' residential site have rights under the housing act and this is totally different.
There is currently one local authority in Lancashire who are trying to boost their council tax coffers by offering an amnesty to any holiday park who has 'live on' customers and they are giving them to choice to apply for a residential licence. This is being strongly resisted (and I am in full agreement) by our trade organisation The BH&HPA.
My take on the Tenerife situation is that if I am ultimately allowed to let my apartment through a licensed agent of my choice - or even a choice from a list - then I will be happy - I have no desire to live in my apartment anyway.
However, there has to be provision for the people who are currently living in their apartments on a touristic complex or a dormant touristic complex. I have no problem with having to maintain a required standard but my main concern is that the system will remain 'sole agent' and our apartments will be virtually worthless!
You're the one that's always banging on about how UK law wouldn't allow the situation you have on Tenerife because of this law to happen.
I am merely pointing out that in actual fact law, in the UK there are actually similar legal problems regarding residential and tourist letting when it comes to controlling residential owners on touristic sites to the problems which will be faced by residential owners in tourist complexes on Tenerife if these new proposals are actually implemented.
I suspect they probably have similar rules in Portugal as well.
you getting yourself mixed up though bobmac with a wrong comparison. the tenerife touristic sites are not going to restricted to 10 months opening, its a 12 month season here. Residential complex's are not going to restricted to 10 month occupancy in tenerife, they are residential with no strings 12 months.
I think you are trying to justify the robert mugabwe canary laws by showing a good uk legal comparison. But as often in your debates with me I out debate you on simple facts.
the uk caravan planning restrictions dont compare with whats coming in tenerife with the new draft law.
As a Caravan Park operator in the UK I can tell you catagorically that there are Holiday Park Licences (which can even be issued for 12 months holidaying) and Residential Park Licences (which are covered under the Housing Act). Anyone buying on a Holiday Park are required to produce evidence of residence (utility bills etc) but this residence can be in another Country. Clearly anyone living on a 'Park Home' residential site have rights under the housing act and this is totally different.
There is currently one local authority in Lancashire who are trying to boost their council tax coffers by offering an amnesty to any holiday park who has 'live on' customers and they are giving them to choice to apply for a residential licence. This is being strongly resisted (and I am in full agreement) by our trade organisation The BH&HPA.
My take on the Tenerife situation is that if I am ultimately allowed to let my apartment through a licensed agent of my choice - or even a choice from a list - then I will be happy - I have no desire to live in my apartment anyway.
However, there has to be provision for the people who are currently living in their apartments on a touristic complex or a dormant touristic complex. I have no problem with having to maintain a required standard but my main concern is that the system will remain 'sole agent' and our apartments will be virtually worthless!
you getting yourself mixed up though bobmac with a wrong comparison. the tenerife touristic sites are not going to restricted to 10 months opening, its a 12 month season here. Residential complex's are not going to restricted to 10 month occupancy in tenerife, they are residential with no strings 12 months.
I think you are trying to justify the robert mugabwe canary laws by showing a good uk legal comparison. But as often in your debates with me I out debate you on simple facts.
the uk caravan planning restrictions dont compare with whats coming in tenerife with the new draft law.
The sites the BBC were looking at were actually 12 Month Holiday Park sites where people had been sold the property and told that it was OK to live there permanently which is in effect the reverse of what was happening on Tenerife where people were being sold residential property and told it was OK to use it for holiday lets.
Nowhere do I say anything about any restrictions being placed on properties on Tenerife.
What I am saying is that if this proposal in Tenerife goes ahead, residential owners in touristic complexes on Tenerife will be in the same legal position as Residential owners on sites in the UK which only have Holiday Park Licences.
It would appear that as usual, you are looking at the posts and only seeing what you it suits you to see, not what has actually been said.
Can I respectfully ask that in future you actually read any posts in full and make sure that you clearly understand what has been said before you go off half-**** expounding your own self-centered interpretation of what was actually said.
golf birdie
21-06-2012, 16:19
you really could not make this up :laugh: So anyone living on say Castle harbour, Royal palm, Victoria court or Paloma beach and many, many other sites will have their apartment taken off them because they don't wish to rent:laugh: How will this effect property vaules on tourist sites when all these apartments come on the market? Anyone left will be forced to use the sole agent no matter how good or bad they may be. This is a giant can of worms just waiting to explode. Only in the Canary Islands ......
The sites the BBC were looking at were actually 12 Month Holiday Park sites where people had been sold the property and told that it was OK to live there permanently which is in effect the reverse of what was happening on Tenerife where people were being sold residential property and told it was OK to use it for holiday lets.
Nowhere do I say anything about any restrictions being placed on properties on Tenerife.
What I am saying is that if this proposal in Tenerife goes ahead, residential owners in touristic complexes on Tenerife will be in the same legal position as Residential owners on sites in the UK which only have Holiday Park Licences.
It would appear that as usual, you are looking at the posts and only seeing what you it suits you to see, not what has actually been said.
Can I respectfully ask that in future you actually read any posts in full and make sure that you clearly understand what has been said before you go off half-**** expounding your own self-centered interpretation of what was actually said.
Can I just say that in my post I am just stating some facts and I respect the views of all members on this forum - whether or not I agree with any opinions expressed. I prefer to keep my opinions of the validity or value of certain contributions, to myself!
junglejim
21-06-2012, 16:33
It's nice to see the Turismo wanting to bring substandard Tourist facilities up to standard - they could start with upgrading the infrastrucure around Puerto Colon which is decidedly shabby, the road down from San Eugenio to Torviscas Bajo mono block is in a dangerous state and is causing accidents ,the old market area in Torviscas needs serious repairs !
I don't read into the proposals that residents are going to have their apartments in touristic sites taken off them - in the "other place " it is merely comments and opinions that are being expressed, even the words "imagine if " are used to set this ridiculous scene .
The ones who should be concerned about these proposals are those hotels / renters who provide basic ,shoddy accommodation with minimal facilities and poor infrastructure .
Can I just say that in my post I am just stating some facts and I respect the views of all members on this forum - whether or not I agree with any opinions expressed. I prefer to keep my opinions of the validity or value of certain contributions, to myself!
I fully respect that but you will find that on this thread, there are some people who interpret any facts that you quote to fit in with their own preconceived ideas off what should be happening and will try and shout you down if you reply.
I fully respect that but you will find that on this thread, there are some people who interpret any facts that you quote to fit in with their own preconceived ideas off what should be happening and will try and shout you down if you reply.
I have noticed that you often do that with me , but at the end of the day its a forum, so free speech, no need for you to be so honest about the way you post. I have noticed you shouting though, its when you type in capitals.
I have noticed that you often do that with me , but at the end of the day its a forum, so free speech, no need for you to be so honest about the way you post. I have noticed you shouting though, its when you type in capitals.
I know what shouting is on a forum, I worked in IT for more than 30 years.
I also am not singling you out; if you took the trouble to read this thread from the start, you would find that my point of view now is the same as it was at the beginning.
This may come as a shock to you as well but I don't have any axe to grind on this subject and I certainly don't have any preconceived ideas on what I want to see happening, I'm a simple holiday holidaymaker who loves his Tenerife holidays and I have stayed in legal and illegal properties.
I also happen to believe in the rule of law and if the Canarian government has decided to do things this way that is their democratic right. As non-canarians, it doesn't matter what we think of it, it is their prerogative to pass and enforce any law they want, even if it's clearly a total ass. At the end of the day, it is their decision which matters and as guests in their country we have to accept that.
There is also an article on JA's web site which is highly relevant regarding the fines which explains what the legal position after the 6 months. I suggest that you read it- it will cheer you up ????
Peterrayner
21-06-2012, 17:05
I didnt read the comments has meaning that property owners couldnt live full time in their own property on a tourisitc site but rather that if they wished to rent then it had to be through an agency and that it had to be on a touristic basis and not long term residential lettings
I know what shouting is on a forum, I worked in IT for more than 30 years.
I also am not singling you out; if you took the trouble to read this thread from the start, you would find that my point of view now is the same as it was at the beginning.
This may come as a shock to you as well but I don't have any axe to grind on this subject and I certainly don't have any preconceived ideas on what I want to see happening, I'm a simple holiday holidaymaker who loves his Tenerife holidays and I have stayed in legal and illegal properties.
I also happen to believe in the rule of law and if the Canarian government has decided to do things this way that is their democratic right. As non-canarians, it doesn't matter what we think of it, it is their prerogative to pass and enforce any law they want, even if it's clearly a total ass. At the end of the day, it is their decision which matters and as guests in their country we have to accept that.
I have to say that you have said that before, and I have argued or debated the point, that your opinion would sanction terrible abuses worldwide both in history and today. what is the law of any land at any time might not be ok and fair , and people sometimes have to say , no we dont agree with that and this law needs to be changed.
I know I often then use a comparison to help debate the point, this angers some posters as they think I am straying from the point , put thats debating and argueing the point.
It takes all sorts to make a world , there are all sorts of people arguing on here, but I must say bobmac that your position on the issue is most odd to me. Its like you freely agree the law is an ass but then you say that we must at the time respect this canary law and not try to change it. Well for what its worth lets me try to give you a comparison to show how odd I find your stance.
Its illegal for women to drive cars in saudi arabia. Should that never alter or be challenged ? or should that eventually change and such a thing be a thing of the past?
The problem Is with your stance no injustices in the world would ever be put right? So in my opinion your stance is not just a bit wrong but totally illogical.
golf birdie
21-06-2012, 17:18
I
Its illegal for women to drive cars in saudi arabia. Should that never alter or be challenged ? or should that eventually change and such a thing be a thing of the past?
.
IMO its a great law and should be enforced here :laugh::laugh:
I have to say that you have said that before, and I have argued or debated the point, that your opinion would sanction terrible abuses worldwide both in history and today. what is the law of any land at any time might not be ok and fair , and people sometimes have to say , no we dont agree with that and this law needs to be changed.
I know I often then use a comparison to help debate the point, this angers some posters as they think I am straying from the point , put thats debating and argueing the point.
It takes all sorts to make a world , there are all sorts of people arguing on here, but I must say bobmac that your position on the issue is most odd to me. Its like you freely agree the law is an ass but then you say that we must at the time respect this canary law and not try to change it. Well for what its worth lets me try to give you a comparison to show how odd I find your stance.
Its illegal for women to drive cars in saudi arabia. Should that never alter or be challenged ? or should that eventually change and such a thing be a thing of the past?
The problem Is with your stance no injustices in the world would ever be put right? So in my opinion your stance is not just a bit wrong but totally illogical.
Let's put this simplistically as that seems to be the only way you're likely to understand it
1) You chose to live in Tenerife.
2) The Canaries have a democratically elected government, elected by the Canarian citizens.
3) That government passes laws ( some of which are good, some of which are downright stupid) and enforces them.
4) As a guest in their country, you have to accept their laws until such time as they revoke them or change them (even the stupid ones), whether you agree with them or not. It is their country, they run it how they want to run it, not how it would suit you to have them running it.
If you can't accept that, you should seriously consider moving somewhere else to live because the Canarian government is unlikely to make the kind of changes you would like to see being made.
golf birdie
21-06-2012, 17:47
3) That government passes laws ( some of which are good, some of which are downright stupid) and enforces them.
4) As a guest in their country, you have to accept their laws until such time as they revoke them or change them (even the stupid ones), whether you agree with them or not. It is their country, they run it how they want to run it, not how it would suit you to have them running it.
If you can't accept that, you should seriously consider moving somewhere else to live because the Canarian government is unlikely to make the kind of changes you would like to see being made.
so who are you or anyone else to say he has no right to try and change the laws?? He may not get what he wants but he has a right to try or is this Syria we live in? Just because others disagee with him does not make him wrong.
Yeah Bob, put that in yer pipe & smoke it..:laugh:
It's great to see everyone getting along so well...
And Nelson, your posts are starting to get long again and you know what happens when you do that don't you? You were doing really well. Don't fall off the wagon now..lol
Let's put this simplistically as that seems to be the only way you're likely to understand it
1) You chose to live in Tenerife.
2) The Canaries have a democratically elected government, elected by the Canarian citizens.
3) That government passes laws ( some of which are good, some of which are downright stupid) and enforces them.
4) As a guest in their country, you have to accept their laws until such time as they revoke them or change them (even the stupid ones), whether you agree with them or not. It is their country, they run it how they want to run it, not how it would suit you to have them running it.
If you can't accept that, you should seriously consider moving somewhere else to live because the Canarian government is unlikely to make the kind of changes you would like to see being made.
But if you are resident in the canaries and register you have some voting rights (not sure how far they extend )
But they do extend to voting in local council elections
Are you suggesting such people should not use them as they were not born in the canaries
junglejim
21-06-2012, 19:26
I didnt read the comments has meaning that property owners couldnt live full time in their own property on a tourisitc site but rather that if they wished to rent then it had to be through an agency and that it had to be on a touristic basis and not long term residential lettings
But that would be against 1994 civil code law surely ?
We have several Spanish on our site (including Konrad) who rent out long term on a private basis .
http://www.quieroabogado.es/indice-de-la-ley-de-arrendamientos-urbanos-lau-1994
Let's put this simplistically as that seems to be the only way you're likely to understand it
1) You chose to live in Tenerife.
2) The Canaries have a democratically elected government, elected by the Canarian citizens.
3) That government passes laws ( some of which are good, some of which are downright stupid) and enforces them.
4) As a guest in their country, you have to accept their laws until such time as they revoke them or change them (even the stupid ones), whether you agree with them or not. It is their country, they run it how they want to run it, not how it would suit you to have them running it.
If you can't accept that, you should seriously consider moving somewhere else to live because the Canarian government is unlikely to make the kind of changes you would like to see being made. I'll pay for his/her flight.
so who are you or anyone else to say he has no right to try and change the laws?? He may not get what he wants but he has a right to try or is this Syria we live in? Just because others disagee with him does not make him wrong.
If Nelson would stop prattling on about how the UK wouldn't have laws like this one and how much better the system in Portugal is compared to the Tenerife system she would probably get a bit more sympathy from people.
I also have to say that I don't think she does herself any favours by constantly comparing the situation with this law to the days when Franco was in power.
There are a lot of Spaniards who will find that comparison very loathsome.
The sad thing is I actually feel sorry for her and I happen to agree that this law needs to be changed, I just think that her constantly harping on about the system in other countries isn't the way to go about getting the system fixed.
Red Devil
21-06-2012, 21:04
Seeing as Nelson owns a property in Tenerife she is obviously going to be more concerned about what is happening - I really don't know why you get so hot under the collar.
If you are bored, simply use your ignore button, you know, free speech and all that. I quite enjoy her posts and despite provocation from quite a few on here she won't be browbeaten. Good on her.
Hmmm after reading the proposed changes to the law and the many reports in the press about it (some of which have different versions of the laws) I have come to the following conclusions;
The government is trying to find a way to incorporate the illegal beds.
having realized that a lot of complexes that were built on land designated for tourism have now become "extinct" or "dormant" as tourist accommodation, there is, or could be a shortage of legal beds if more Complexes lose their licenses because more residential owners buy into them.
Using los cristianos as an example, If this happened and let's say in 5 years Paloma beach, San Marino, Victoria court , royal palm, cristian sur, Tenerife sur, costamar and commodoro all lost their status as tourist complexes
This would mean there would be no legal accommodation apart from Arona gran and princes dacil from the sea to aguamar.... This would mean Los cristianos would need more tourist accommodation built - but where? There aren't many plots available near the sea as the places that were meant to be touristic will have followed in the footsteps of sur y sol, atlantida, Los Angeles etc in becoming dormant/ extinct touristic.
So it would make sense to try and bring in legislation to re establish these complexes and bring them back into the fold - however if you think that means registering individual owners apartments like Portugal think again, I can't see it.
The tourist laws from 2009 were titled "Ley de medidas urgentes " which roughly means "law of urgent measures" is the law they quote in this draft law which re-defined the standards required for tourism and have all accommodations until oct 2012 to adapt and achieve at least 3 stars or be left behind in the old key system.... You can bet the plan was to faze out the ones who didn't bother altogether......
There's now a situation where owners on dormant tourist complexes can't register and this it would seem is how the government want to bring them back into active tourism.
This will mean these "dormant" complexes will have to reach the new 3 star standards before they are
Considered legal - this will require a lot of building work and modifications.
That's my 2 cents, we'll see of I'm close to being right as things develop .
Expanding on the "urgent measures" law I think the government called it
This due to the need to quickly improve standards.
Hmmm after reading the proposed changes to the law and the many reports in the press about it (some of which have different versions of the laws) I have come to the following conclusions;
The government is trying to find a way to incorporate the illegal beds.
having realized that a lot of complexes that were built on land designated for tourism have now become "extinct" or "dormant" as tourist accommodation, there is, or could be a shortage of legal beds if more Complexes lose their licenses because more residential owners buy into them.
Using los cristianos as an example, If this happened and let's say in 5 years Paloma beach, San Marino, Victoria court , royal palm, cristian sur, Tenerife sur, costamar and commodoro all lost their status as tourist complexes
This would mean there would be no legal accommodation apart from Arona gran and princes dacil from the sea to aguamar.... This would mean Los cristianos would need more tourist accommodation built - but where? There aren't many plots available near the sea as the places that were meant to be touristic will have followed in the footsteps of sur y sol, atlantida, Los Angeles etc in becoming dormant/ extinct touristic.
So it would make sense to try and bring in legislation to re establish these complexes and bring them back into the fold - however if you think that means registering individual owners apartments like Portugal think again, I can't see it.
The tourist laws from 2009 were titled "Ley de medidas urgentes " which roughly means "law of urgent measures" is the law they quote in this draft law which re-defined the standards required for tourism and have all accommodations until oct 2012 to adapt and achieve at least 3 stars or be left behind in the old key system.... You can bet the plan was to faze out the ones who didn't bother altogether......
There's now a situation where owners on dormant tourist complexes can't register and this it would seem is how the government want to bring them back into active tourism.
This will mean these "dormant" complexes will have to reach the new 3 star standards before they are
Considered legal - this will require a lot of building work and modifications.
That's my 2 cents, we'll see of I'm close to being right as things develop .
whatever you might think that they are up to lets not forget that they are barking mad. The complex;s you name in los cristo are mostly full of tourists anyway, the dormant touristic ones are by far occupied by tourists, and have been for 16 years. Its just they can get by quite happily without sole agents, the owners just rent out on their own. Legalise what we have got now, no need to mess things up anyway.
Funny thing is that it does legalize what you've got now, if "what you have now" is the ability to let your apartment - if I'm right they are planning to give you the ability to let your apartment legally - only it won't be you letting it, it'll be the management of the accommodation and you'll just get a fee.
I have had a quick read through the latest murmurings, rumours, stories, news etc. My own humble opinions on things at the moment:
What must be addressed first and foremost
Whether they change some residential complexes to touristic, dormant residential to touristic, extinct residential to touristic or whatever, they absolutely have to address the ongoing issue of exploitacion license holders who blatantly and brazenly "exploit" property owners by offering paltry returns on a "take it or take nothing and we´ll have you fined" basis. The people who have bought these properties have done so under the impression they are a good investment (the whole "you should have done your research, good enough for you" really doesn't cut it for me and I personally find that type of response rather nasty/caustic....)
There is nothing greedy/loathsome or wrong with people buying property and trying to turn a profit. And without all the property sales and therefore the massive taxes from these property sales as well as the hundreds of thousands of visitors who have and continue to stay in these properties and spend money here, I doubt the South of Tenerife would be as nice as it is!
Proof that it can work perfectly well under a legal and fair system
We thankfully have two very good examples on here of how touristic complexes should be run in Loaded (Paloma Beach) and Oasis (Royal Palm) who (like owners who have invested in rental properties) have invested heavily in their businesses. This regulation of this relationship will make or break the entire system. So the tourist board must ensure both the license holders and the property owners get a fair deal whilst ensuring the standards are maintained for visitors who use these complexes. If this isn't done then whatever they do so far as legalising various types of properties will simply create an even bigger mess with owners fed up of the crappy terms from devious license holders and fair/honest license holders who offer a good deal, fed up of devious/greedy owners who want to cut them out completely and undercut them on price no matter what terms they offer them.
So whats the future?
The longer this utter mess continues, the worse for everyone.... The image and reputation of Tenerife will be in tatters so far as investing is concerned as more and more people read about and hear negative snippets of information concerning the property market and how chaotic/unfair things are. Hopefully common sense will prevail and these unworkable, unfathomable and blatantly restrictive laws will be updated and amended to provide a modern, flexible framework within which owners and letting agents can both profit from their investments and the services they provide whilst the tourists they accommodate can enjoy everything Tenerife has to offer and continue bringing and spending their money here. Standards are maintained/improved, owners and agents are happy and they and the tourists are contributing taxes and providing legal jobs to the local economy. This SHOULD be the goal, for the good of the island.
I have had a quick read through the latest murmurings, rumours, stories, news etc. My own humble opinions on things at the moment:
What must be addressed first and foremost
Whether they change some residential complexes to touristic, dormant residential to touristic, extinct residential to touristic or whatever, they absolutely have to address the ongoing issue of exploitacion license holders who blatantly and brazenly "exploit" property owners by offering paltry returns on a "take it or take nothing and we´ll have you fined" basis. The people who have bought these properties have done so under the impression they are a good investment (the whole "you should have done your research, good enough for you" really doesn't cut it for me and I personally find that type of response rather nasty/caustic....)
There is nothing greedy/loathsome or wrong with people buying property and trying to turn a profit. And without all the property sales and therefore the massive taxes from these property sales as well as the hundreds of thousands of visitors who have and continue to stay in these properties and spend money here, I doubt the South of Tenerife would be as nice as it is!
Proof that it can work perfectly well under a legal and fair system
We thankfully have two very good examples on here of how touristic complexes should be run in Loaded (Paloma Beach) and Oasis (Royal Palm) who (like owners who have invested in rental properties) have invested heavily in their businesses. This regulation of this relationship will make or break the entire system. So the tourist board must ensure both the license holders and the property owners get a fair deal whilst ensuring the standards are maintained for visitors who use these complexes. If this isn't done then whatever they do so far as legalising various types of properties will simply create an even bigger mess with owners fed up of the crappy terms from devious license holders and fair/honest license holders who offer a good deal, fed up of devious/greedy owners who want to cut them out completely and undercut them on price no matter what terms they offer them.
So whats the future?
The longer this utter mess continues, the worse for everyone.... The image and reputation of Tenerife will be in tatters so far as investing is concerned as more and more people read about and hear negative snippets of information concerning the property market and how chaotic/unfair things are. Hopefully common sense will prevail and these unworkable, unfathomable and blatantly restrictive laws will be updated and amended to provide a modern, flexible framework within which owners and letting agents can both profit from their investments and the services they provide whilst the tourists they accommodate can enjoy everything Tenerife has to offer and continue bringing and spending their money here. Standards are maintained/improved, owners and agents are happy and they and the tourists are contributing taxes and providing legal jobs to the local economy. This SHOULD be the goal, for the good of the island.
This seems to be the most sensible, realistic and pragmatic post since this thread began!
I always acknowledge from what I have heard that loaded runs the sole agency system well, he seems to provide a reasonable return to the private owners on his complex. The problem is he is the exception that proves the rule and generally sole agency exploitation results in rancour.
For this reason there has been a natural free market evolution towards owners abandoning the sole agent on touristic sites and renting out themselves. This trend was in motion before the rise of the internet ads and with the internet people were quite capable of finding customers and getting on with the job without any sole agents.
even a fair sole agent is in my view an entirely unnecesary additional cost to the business of renting out a private apartment to tourists. For the life of me I can not see why the canary government puts this system in place. I can only offer the explanation that its a system to protect hotels from self catering competition by giving apartments unnecesary hotel like overheads, eg, 24 hour reception and maid service.
None of this has anything to do with the real world outside the canaries where individual private renting is as normal as eating and drinking. Whay we need to work towards is an end to sole agency, despite a couple of decent ones who have done the best with a daft system.
Angusjim
22-06-2012, 09:37
I'll pay for his/her flight.
Nelson I may be reading this wrong but i think she is warming to you :laugh::dancing:
Just spoke to the Cabildo and they stressed this is a pre-draft of the law, the idealogies in the draft do not have any details on how they will be achieved yet but the idea is to recover accommodation units lost because of residential use (read also accommodation that was registered but sole agent dissapeared). NB not residential complexes but copmplexes that have become residential due to having under 50%+1.
Obviously if there is land that was planned for tourist use that is no longer being used in that capacity there is a problem for all of the local businesses in that area, this would also mean new tourist accommodation would have to be built to compensate for the loss of units and beds - obviously the more this happens the further out of town the "tourist areas" get pushed. So the governments plan seems to be that of "renewable tourist accommodation"...... how this will be achieved is anyones guess and although the draft law does not mention expropriation it could be considered for the greater good of tourist areas that have gradually had their tourist beds taken away from them by people "mis-using" the plots for residential use.
If this becomes the plan then it will mean that people who own on "dormant touristic" sites will be brought back in from the cold that they currently find themselves in, but it would under similar terms to how legal tourist complexes are run currently and not anything like the "portuguese model" where it's a free for all.
This is purely my opinion and my guess as to how it will pan out and I could be wrong, but based on how I think the Government visiualises tourism here, I think this is the more probable way forward.
I would guess also that if a complex can't deicde on a sole agent then the government would open bidding to outside companies who could then come in and set up in the complex providing the upgrades detailed in the 2009 "urgent measures" law were adhered to.
We will have to wait and see!
Peterrayner
22-06-2012, 12:32
That opinion seems to dovetail with JA`s report on her website.
It seems it will also require those complexes which are touristic to provide the offer for which they were designed, rather than be changed into residential usage, which seems connected with the issue I reported of facilitating the return of touristic licences to “dormant touristic” complexes. These too, along with the hotels, will apparently be required to upgrade and renovate, with fines applied to those who fail to comply.
and it sort of makes sense from their point of view and their vision for the development of the island`s tourism needs.
I can see owners who have bought on Touristic sites for their own private use perhaps having some initial concerns regarding the default residential use issue and the pssibility of upgrading costs, but as always the devil will be in the detail.
regards Peter
These upgrade costs are exactly what the rest of us have had to do the last few years to reach 3 star (which we are at the point of achieving)
you are all talking about this as if its a perfectly reasonable and rational decesion that the canary government are carrying out. what they are proposing is to forceably ensure that anyone who is currently living residentialy in their own private apartment but on a touristic site has to begin tourist letting under a sole agent. The way you are talking its as if they are just suggesting something quite ordinary like a day trip to lorro park.
I have often been attacked on here for pointing out a tendancy of the canary government to act in a way consistant with authoritarian spanish regimes of a few years ago or crazy african depots of today. well I certainly rest my case on them with this latest proposal.
It makes you wonder what us on touristic actually bought? we thought it was our apartment, live in it if you want or rent it if you want. Now it seems we have a property that we own but others are going to be given the legal job of just renting it to tourists. Plus we are to be forced to upgrade it as the government demands. If they get away with this then who would ever buy a touristic apartment in the future? Are the touristic apertment owners being made into a sort of shared investment company in partnership with the canary government?
Peterrayner
22-06-2012, 14:07
It makes you wonder what us on touristic actually bought? we thought it was our apartment, live in it if you want or rent it if you want. Now it seems we have a property that we own but others are going to be given the legal job of just renting it to tourists.
but to be fair thats always been the case to date and from the info released to date its not about to change it would seem.
The implied changes might or might not affect those owners (like your neighbours) who use it purely residentially themselves.
My own personal view is they would not be affected regarding their own personal use. I cant see any restrictions that could be imposed on private property to that extent, but who knows we are second guessing at this stage.
If they wished to start renting then legal touristic lets through an appointed agent might be the only option available.
Wether thats a "sole agent" for the complex or some other arrangments remains to be seen.
It would seem minimum standards are to be applied and I would guess that includes 24 hour receptions, life guards, etc. as part of the upgrading they deem necessary for dormant touristic sites, where these facilities are no longer present, and that may come as a financial shock to some owners.
I think anyone buying and renting out is basically making a business pact with the canary islands, the owner is being allowed to make profit on the fruits of the islands MAJOR attraction. Obviously the government doesn't mind the island being exploited by these owners so long as they follow the governments ideology and vision for tourism in the Canary Islands.
I can understand why the government would want to have such a vast control of tourism, if they do let go completely and all of the apartment complexes become like the "portuguese model" it would be a lot harder for customers to book because each unit of accommodation would or could possibly have an individual owner or cleaner or random company marketing it online so the chances of these smaller scale marketing options investing in live booking systems and hooking up with majopr travel agents and tour operatours would be almost nil.
This would make booking apartments on booking.com, expedia, travel republic, thomas cook, etc etc....... very hard to do and people would be presented with hotel options only which they may not want (something many have said in this thread) and they will be put off and go somewhere else where apartment complexes are run like a selfcatering version of a hotel with different facilites.
It makes you wonder what us on touristic actually bought? we thought it was our apartment, live in it if you want or rent it if you want. Now it seems we have a property that we own but others are going to be given the legal job of just renting it to tourists. Plus we are to be forced to upgrade it as the government demands. If they get away with this then who would ever buy a touristic apartment in the future? Are the touristic apertment owners being made into a sort of shared investment company in partnership with the canary government?
You bought 2 apartments on a touristic complex and had the choice to rent it legally through, the then, sole agent. However you and others on your complex decided to operate outside the guidelines set by the tourist authorities, rent your apartments direct and possibly forced the sole agent to quit due to lack of income! Due to this your complex lost its status and owners like you have now received a financial penalty, many times has it been heard in the past "it is illegal to rent your apartment direct but nobody ever gets fined". Now they have started to clamp down on the legal system you are all up in arms saying how wrong the rules are that you chose to ignore for many years. The proposal has a positive side that will reintroduce legal beds in the areas they were originally designated to. If every tourist site in Los Cristianos had been bought by owners, like yourself, that decided to choose just to live in them (forgetting the direct illegal letting) then there would be no legal letting at all in the area! Your other option would have been to buy on a residential site then you could live there (swapping between your 2 apartments) for as long as you liked.
My question tou you is why you bought on a touristic complex if you were going to rent illegally anyway?
Seeing as Nelson owns a property in Tenerife she is obviously going to be more concerned about what is happening - I really don't know why you get so hot under the collar.
If you are bored, simply use your ignore button, you know, free speech and all that. I quite enjoy her posts and despite provocation from quite a few on here she won't be browbeaten. Good on her.
And using my right to free speech, if I post and she replies implying that I have said something in my post which is clearly not there, I can clarify that point.
I think anyone buying and renting out is basically making a business pact with the canary islands, the owner is being allowed to make profit on the fruits of the islands MAJOR attraction. Obviously the government doesn't mind the island being exploited by these owners so long as they follow the governments ideology and vision for tourism in the Canary Islands.
I can understand why the government would want to have such a vast control of tourism, if they do let go completely and all of the apartment complexes become like the "portuguese model" it would be a lot harder for customers to book because each unit of accommodation would or could possibly have an individual owner or cleaner or random company marketing it online so the chances of these smaller scale marketing options investing in live booking systems and hooking up with majopr travel agents and tour operatours would be almost nil.
This would make booking apartments on booking.com, expedia, travel republic, thomas cook, etc etc....... very hard to do and people would be presented with hotel options only which they may not want (something many have said in this thread) and they will be put off and go somewhere else where apartment complexes are run like a selfcatering version of a hotel with different facilites.
but this is where it all becomes a load of fuss over nothing. Speaking from my own experience of individual private renting on the nelson model , and thousands more have been doing this in the canaries for many years, we have no problem in attracting happy tourists year after year. There is nothing for the canary government to put right, our apartments have always been full of happy tourists for 8 years now, we have done all this without any sole agents being involved.
all around the world people do just the same . Only here in the canaries is the whole thing causing such hassle. If the crazy canary system were to be reformed along the lines of the portugese model that system is not a free for all. It allows individual private tourist letting, but an annual permit has to be paid of 400 euros and there are standards to be adhered to.
The ubiquitous Portuguese model
If she's so keen on their model for letting why is she still in Tenerife ??
How much do you want for your 2 apartments? let me know and then you can buy property in Portugal :laugh:
You bought 2 apartments on a touristic complex and had the choice to rent it legally through, the then, sole agent. However you and others on your complex decided to operate outside the guidelines set by the tourist authorities, rent your apartments direct and possibly forced the sole agent to quit due to lack of income! Due to this your complex lost its status and owners like you have now received a financial penalty, many times has it been heard in the past "it is illegal to rent your apartment direct but nobody ever gets fined". Now they have started to clamp down on the legal system you are all up in arms saying how wrong the rules are that you chose to ignore for many years. The proposal has a positive side that will reintroduce legal beds in the areas they were originally designated to. If every tourist site in Los Cristianos had been bought by owners, like yourself, that decided to choose just to live in them (forgetting the direct illegal letting) then there would be no legal letting at all in the area! Your other option would have been to buy on a residential site then you could live there (swapping between your 2 apartments) for as long as you liked.
My question tou you is why you bought on a touristic complex if you were going to rent illegally anyway?
the honest answer is that way back in 2004 when we bought the first apartment the estate agent told us about touristic and residential complex's, we wanted to rent so we made sure we bought touristic. Our lawyer in tenerife told us about sole agency and 51%, he said if you dont use the agent rent quietly. That was after we had signed the contract and paid the deposit. On our place the old renters warned us not to use the agent as they would not pay us, basically a bunch of bandits. So we sort of knew what the position was and sort of did not. I can remember thinking that renting was ok on a touristic on your own as long as altogether there was 51% renting. I would say that more or less as we bought the sole agent lost the 51% too and they would have been illegal as well.
the honest answer is that way back in 2004 when we bought the first apartment the estate agent told us about touristic and residential complex's, we wanted to rent so we made sure we bought touristic. Our lawyer in tenerife told us about sole agency and 51%, he said if you dont use the agent rent quietly. That was after we had signed the contract and paid the deposit. On our place the old renters warned us not to use the agent as they would not pay us, basically a bunch of bandits. So we sort of knew what the position was and sort of did not. I can remember thinking that renting was ok on a touristic on your own as long as altogether there was 51% renting. I would say that more or less as we bought the sole agent lost the 51% too and they would have been illegal as well.
Obviously not quietly enough!
the problem with the "Nelson Model" is that some owners want to rent their apartments to gain money but they don't want to do it themselves. On Paloma Beach there is a mix under our registration and I would say out ofthe 150 we have registered 100 are rented exclusivelyby us, 10 are rented exclusively by the owners and the other 40 are a bit of us and a bit of them. If you take us out of the equation it means a lot of owners will have no bookings and 40 will have half as much as they did when we booked 50% of their weeks.... .not everyone wants to find their own bookings like people in the "Nelson Model" or the "portuguese model", they have other things going on in their lives and want someone who's onsite, onhand and knows how to bring business in and look after their investment FOR THEM.
the problem with the "Nelson Model" is that some owners want to rent their apartments to gain money but they don't want to do it themselves. On Paloma Beach there is a mix under our registration and I would say out ofthe 150 we have registered 100 are rented exclusivelyby us, 10 are rented exclusively by the owners and the other 40 are a bit of us and a bit of them. If you take us out of the equation it means a lot of owners will have no bookings and 40 will have half as much as they did when we booked 50% of their weeks.... .not everyone wants to find their own bookings like people in the "Nelson Model" or the "portuguese model", they have other things going on in their lives and want someone who's onsite, onhand and knows how to bring business in and look after their investment FOR THEM.
well again agreed, thats another part of the problem , people wanting it both ways , you have my sympathy with that. But of course they are illegal if they get their own bookings , you should be doing everything.
getting back to us buying in 2004 and the estate agent showing us just touristic. The complex we looked at was ours and we bought happily, even though it was a lot rougher back then but we could see the potential. The second viewing we saw on that day was a two bedder on altimar, we were not impressed . It sounds like fun and games on that complex with the sole agent!
Angusjim
22-06-2012, 16:14
the problem with the "Nelson Model" is that some owners want to rent their apartments to gain money but they don't want to do it themselves. On Paloma Beach there is a mix under our registration and I would say out ofthe 150 we have registered 100 are rented exclusivelyby us, 10 are rented exclusively by the owners and the other 40 are a bit of us and a bit of them. If you take us out of the equation it means a lot of owners will have no bookings and 40 will have half as much as they did when we booked 50% of their weeks.... .not everyone wants to find their own bookings like people in the "Nelson Model" or the "portuguese model", they have other things going on in their lives and want someone who's onsite, onhand and knows how to bring business in and look after their investment FOR THEM.
But do all agents look after owners ? thats part of the problem there is no legislation or safeguards in place for the sole agent to follow or adhere to, yourself & Oasis both seem to run good businesses which benefit both parties, but it would also appear that many owners are being ripped off by their sole agents and really have no way of sorting things out.
the honest answer is that way back in 2004 when we bought the first apartment the estate agent told us about touristic and residential complex's, we wanted to rent so we made sure we bought touristic. Our lawyer in tenerife told us about sole agency and 51%, he said if you dont use the agent rent quietly. That was after we had signed the contract and paid the deposit. On our place the old renters warned us not to use the agent as they would not pay us, basically a bunch of bandits. So we sort of knew what the position was and sort of did not. I can remember thinking that renting was ok on a touristic on your own as long as altogether there was 51% renting. I would say that more or less as we bought the sole agent lost the 51% too and they would have been illegal as well.
So you are admitting that 8 years ago, this law was explained to you by an estate agent and then by your lawyer and you chose to ignore it; you say that you sort of knew what the position and sort of did not.
Sorry, but if you were buying a property in a foreign country and you were unsure about the legalities of using it for holiday lettings, you should have taken independent legal advice.
But do all agents look after owners ? thats part of the problem there is no legislation or safeguards in place for the sole agent to follow or adhere to, yourself & Oasis both seem to run good businesses which benefit both parties, but it would also appear that many owners are being ripped off by their sole agents and really have no way of sorting things out.
Think there may be some changes to the sole letting agents activities if changes in legislation are passed!
Angusjim
22-06-2012, 16:28
Think there may be some changes to the sole letting agents activities if changes in legislation are passed!
Given how slow things go in Tenerife I fear many owners may not last long enough to see the legilation changed and many of them have done nothing wrong they are legally letting but are being punished by the current system.
Peterrayner
22-06-2012, 16:34
Given how slow things go in Tenerife I fear many owners may not last long enough to see the legilation changed and many of them have done nothing wrong they are legally letting but are being punished by the current system.
Normally I would agree with that view but this might be the exception to the rule.
They have surprised a few people with the relative speed they have issued the draft proposals.
Weird how when the "illegal owners" have a way back in they still don't like it isn't it ?
Weird how when the "illegal owners" have a way back in they still don't like it isn't it ?
Also very strange that they are highly selective on which posts they acknowledge
Peterrayner
22-06-2012, 20:00
illegal owners ???
illegal owners ???
Yes
They are very quick if they think they can suggest that the post can be construed to support their views.
They tend to vanish when it becomes clear that it doesn't.
illegal owners ???
I did use speech marks....
Peterrayner
22-06-2012, 20:16
OK "illegal owners" ???
Owners who have been deemed to be letting illegally by the laws in place.
How much do you want for your 2 apartments? let me know and then you can buy property in Portugal :laugh: We could have a collection for the 2 apartments and the airfare. I wouldn't really want anyone to think I was going soft.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Obviously not quietly enough!
Quiet and Nelson are two words that just don't seem right together!
I haven,t posted on this thread for a while,because to be frank its still going around in one big circle.However I have noticed that the role of the sole letting agent is now coming under some scrutiny in reguards to the dormant touristic sites.so I wonder if the two sole letting agents who post on this thread could tell us how they ended up getting the rights to their respected complexes.and what percentage of said complex do they or their family own outright.
I haven,t posted on this thread for a while,because to be frank its still going around in one big circle.However I have noticed that the role of the sole letting agent is now coming under some scrutiny in reguards to the dormant touristic sites.so I wonder if the two sole letting agents who post on this thread could tell us how they ended up getting the rights to their respected complexes.and what percentage of said complex do they or their family own outright.
Many years of hard work, gaining trust and quite a bit of investment.
Personally I own 2 apartments, just over 1%.
Peterrayner
23-06-2012, 09:16
The bottom line, though, regardless of outcome, and regardless of whether the issue goes all the way to Europe, is that the current law prohibits openly offering non-touristic properties to the public for commercial (touristic) purposes, and prohibits touristic properties to be openly offered to the public other than through the onsite agent. The new proposed legislation that is currently out in pre-draft form is not going to be any looser; it is likely, indeed, to be even tougher in this particular respect.
The above quote is from JA`s website.
My parents spotted a gap in the market in 1987, there was no sole agent or any registered agent at the time , they bought the business off a guy who hadn't spotted the potential and was just basically offering a cleaning and hire service to the few people about and putting bookings into apartments where possible.
As soon as we bought the business we were denounced by the old owner of the business for letting illegally without a license but successfully proved the lets to be the old guys inherited bookings and they then focused on him instead....
My parents registered the business With the tourist board ASAP and we then joined by 2 others (back when you could have as many as you liked), Marcus management and a guy called McKay.
Over the years my parents worked very hard and built the business up, from age 7 onwards we didn't have a family holiday ever, my dad had 1 day off a year and they worked from 9am until about 9pm, in the early days even later as the only telephone that was installed and available was in the pool bar so Dad would sit waiting for clients to call after hours in the bar while nursing a pint of cider!
They were in some respects in the right place at the right time and had the trust and friendship of a lot of owners who when they came to sell allowed my parents to buy off them on private mortgages here and there, this along with other purchases began to build up their property portfolio.
In 1993/1994 the complex was in financial ruin and bank accounts and lifts were embargoed etc due to fiddling by the administration - my parents, with the help of the owners who would back them, forced the existing team out and got a new administrator in, my mum became president and the same set up exists today.
In 1995 the business was the biggest on the complex by far and McKay had disappeared, Marcus management remained and a third party had popped up onsite without ever registering with the tourist board.
At this point it became clear that only one was allowed and having achieved 50%+1 without the other 2 they were offered the chance to join up but would not contribute to running costs so we went without them. Marcus management de-registered himself and the other party moved to the uk but remained an owner - to this day we manage her apartment. This made us the sole agent by default.
Around this time i finished school and joined the business, learnt the ropes and helped it grow, got us online and more customer focused.
We've always strived for improvement and are soon to achieve 3 star rating all being well.
Nowadays we have 150 apartments registered and own around 40 apartments.
My parents spotted a gap in the market in 1987, there was no sole agent or any registered agent at the time , they bought the business off a guy who hadn't spotted the potential and was just basically offering a cleaning and hire service to the few people about and putting bookings into apartments where possible.
As soon as we bought the business we were denounced by the old owner of the business for letting illegally without a license but successfully proved the lets to be the old guys inherited bookings and they then focused on him instead....
My parents registered the business With the tourist board ASAP and we then joined by 2 others (back when you could have as many as you liked), Marcus management and a guy called McKay.
Over the years my parents worked very hard and built the business up, from age 7 onwards we didn't have a family holiday ever, my dad had 1 day off a year and they worked from 9am until about 9pm, in the early days even later as the only telephone that was installed and available was in the pool bar so Dad would sit waiting for clients to call after hours in the bar while nursing a pint of cider!
They were in some respects in the right place at the right time and had the trust and friendship of a lot of owners who when they came to sell allowed my parents to buy off them on private mortgages here and there, this along with other purchases began to build up their property portfolio.
In 1993/1994 the complex was in financial ruin and bank accounts and lifts were embargoed etc due to fiddling by the administration - my parents, with the help of the owners who would back them, forced the existing team out and got a new administrator in, my mum became president and the same set up exists today.
In 1995 the business was the biggest on the complex by far and McKay had disappeared, Marcus management remained and a third party had popped up onsite without ever registering with the tourist board.
At this point it became clear that only one was allowed and having achieved 50%+1 without the other 2 they were offered the chance to join up but would not contribute to running costs so we went without them. Marcus management de-registered himself and the other party moved to the uk but remained an owner - to this day we manage her apartment. This made us the sole agent by default.
Around this time i finished school and joined the business, learnt the ropes and helped it grow, got us online and more customer focused.
We've always strived for improvement and are soon to achieve 3 star rating all being well.
Nowadays we have 150 apartments registered and own around 40 apartments.
You and your family have obviously worked very hard and been very diligent in offering a good service to all of your clients (those who own the apartments that you rent out, as well as those who holiday in the apartments). It is such a shame that your example seems to be the exception. Those of us who are trying to operate under Konrad's regime have an entirely different experience of the sole agent philosophy. Our complex has kept up with all the renovations and necessary paperwork etc needed to comply with the laws ..... but Konrad still insists that owners are not allowed access to their own apartments, apart from the designated four (quiet) weeks of the year. This, even more than the paltry amount offered as rent, is what has most owners in uproar.
Angusjim
23-06-2012, 12:50
You and your family have obviously worked very hard and been very diligent in offering a good service to all of your clients (those who own the apartments that you rent out, as well as those who holiday in the apartments). It is such a shame that your example seems to be the exception. Those of us who are trying to operate under Konrad's regime have an entirely different experience of the sole agent philosophy. Our complex has kept up with all the renovations and necessary paperwork etc needed to comply with the laws ..... but Konrad still insists that owners are not allowed access to their own apartments, apart from the designated four (quiet) weeks of the year. This, even more than the paltry amount offered as rent, is what has most owners in uproar.
Foz when you purchased your apartment were those the terms that you bought the apartment under or have these just evolved thru the years. Does he own the 50% +1 he requires without other owners ?
willowlily
23-06-2012, 12:52
My parents spotted a gap in the market in 1987, there was no sole agent or any registered agent at the time , they bought the business off a guy who hadn't spotted the potential and was just basically offering a cleaning and hire service to the few people about and putting bookings into apartments where possible.
As soon as we bought the business we were denounced by the old owner of the business for letting illegally without a license but successfully proved the lets to be the old guys inherited bookings and they then focused on him instead....
My parents registered the business With the tourist board ASAP and we then joined by 2 others (back when you could have as many as you liked), Marcus management and a guy called McKay.
Over the years my parents worked very hard and built the business up, from age 7 onwards we didn't have a family holiday ever, my dad had 1 day off a year and they worked from 9am until about 9pm, in the early days even later as the only telephone that was installed and available was in the pool bar so Dad would sit waiting for clients to call after hours in the bar while nursing a pint of cider!
They were in some respects in the right place at the right time and had the trust and friendship of a lot of owners who when they came to sell allowed my parents to buy off them on private mortgages here and there, this along with other purchases began to build up their property portfolio.
In 1993/1994 the complex was in financial ruin and bank accounts and lifts were embargoed etc due to fiddling by the administration - my parents, with the help of the owners who would back them, forced the existing team out and got a new administrator in, my mum became president and the same set up exists today.
In 1995 the business was the biggest on the complex by far and McKay had disappeared, Marcus management remained and a third party had popped up onsite without ever registering with the tourist board.
At this point it became clear that only one was allowed and having achieved 50%+1 without the other 2 they were offered the chance to join up but would not contribute to running costs so we went without them. Marcus management de-registered himself and the other party moved to the uk but remained an owner - to this day we manage her apartment. This made us the sole agent by default.
Around this time i finished school and joined the business, learnt the ropes and helped it grow, got us online and more customer focused.
We've always strived for improvement and are soon to achieve 3 star rating all being well.
Nowadays we have 150 apartments registered and own around 40 apartments.
i understand totally what you and your family have achieved loaded. hard work and dedication is the only way to succeed in this life with a head held high and self respect intact. i salute you and your family
Foz when you purchased your apartment were those the terms that you bought the apartment under or have these just evolved thru the years. Does he own the 50% +1 he requires without other owners ?
In answer to your two questions .... yes .... and no!! I understand NOW that those were the terms and conditions in place when I bought the apartment. At the time of purchase I had lived (in rented accommodation) in the area for about nine years. I knew many people in the area who owned apartments in the complex, who rented them out to friends, family members, work colleagues and anyone else willing to respect their holiday home and pay the money!! No one mentioned the need to rent via Konrad .... not any of the many owners I knew, not the reception staff I knew, not the estate agent I used, not the gestor I went to for legal and financial advise. Even when folk started to talk of the fact that letting on residential complexes was incurring heavy fines, I, and my fellow owners, felt we were safe as we were letting on a touristic complex. Having declared my rental income every year and paid all my taxes I was confident that I had done no wrong. Then November 2011 I discovered that all that meant nothing if you were not letting via the sole agent. We had always referred to Konrad as "the company that runs the "hotel" area of the complex. No-one I knew was aware that individual owners were supposed to let via him. Obviously I stopped advertising my property straight away and it is now up for sale. So ... in answer to your first question ... yes, those were the terms when I bought. I do feel those terms should at the very least, be explained to purchasers at the point of paying a deposit! As for the second part .... no he holds just over 30%, and 20% of those are timeshare apartments. That doesn't seem to make any difference however. He has been the sole agent since the complex was built. A lot of owners do not wish to let their apartments, but the majority do. However Konrad is so entrenched in the place, it appears a pipe dream to try to get rid of him. I have approached him with proposals to offer a more flexible system, whereby owners who wish to make use of their holiday homes for certain weeks or months of the year can do so, and then place them with him for the remaining available weeks. He would then pay then a fixed amount for each week that he actually finds holiday makers for. He dismissed these proposals ... basically saying it was his way or you can't rent at all. Our community fees are incredibly high (2,181€7year for a one bed) (though that does include water and electric) as all owners accept the need to pay for the need to keep the complex at a high standard and to meet all the tourist boards requirements. Surely he is not making much money out of the complex ... but he still remains totally inflexible about the way the rental side of things are run.
I understand the point people make on here that ignorance is no excuse. But it would seem that at the time I purchased (1999) unless I had specifically asked a solicitor/lawyer to put in the writing the legal position as far as holiday letting on a complex was concerned, I would never be informed. I asked many people including a gestor and the hacienda has happily taken tax on my rental income. Stupidly I imagined that if I were doing something illegal the tax office wouldn't have just accepted my tax every year!!!!!! And before some of you say, they probably didn't know it was for holiday lets, I produced UK style books showing dates, names, number of nights rented etc. Plus, the way you are taxed on holiday letting is different to the way you are taxed on long letting. So .... as I have found is the case in many instances here, unless you know the answer to a question before asking it, you don't know the correct questions to ask!!!!!!!!!!!
I accept I have done wrong. I accept I can no longer rent out my apartment on holiday lets, I accept that it all over. (And before anyone says .... ah yes but you earnt out of it for years ... yes I did. The initial investment was an awful lot of money and my intention was always to profit ... I see nothing wrong in that!) I do however feel for the other owners who bought their places hoping to use them themselves whenever they liked, and making a little profit on their investment when it would otherwise stand empty .... then hoping to use it more and more in their retirement. Those people have had their dreams quashed.
it reads like foz had a similar experience to us in sort of understanding the law, believing that being on a touristic etc would be legal. getting back to what I was saying yesterday about what we understood about the law when we bought in 2004 , I also remember thinking our community had some role in things. I sort of thought that the 50 plus 1 % was decided each year at the agm, and that there was a danger that the renting could be stopped if say we ended up with a majority of residential owners.
Whether people blatantly bought and ignored the law is not really the issue though. The simple issue is whether the law which requires sole agency monoploy exploitation is fair and sensible or whether it is not. Given that the law was largely ignored for so many many years the matter is only now coming to a head. In my opinion the law is unjust as touristic apartments can be rented out by their owners on their own without problems, many have done this for years. If others want to avoid the job and use agents then that is fine. But the present system of sole agency is unacceptable.
The only fair system in a free market would be complete freedom of choice. Rent on your own if you want or use an agent if you want.
Back to that again nelson, for every reason you think there should be a change there is at least one reason why it shouldn't.
Foz, I genuinely sympathise with you, we try and tell the owners who may not know about the law but unfortunately many don't want to know and then say we're just trying to get their apartment on our books and their current team say otherwise to us....
Red Devil
23-06-2012, 19:41
Back to that again nelson, for every reason you think there should be a change there is at least one reason why it shouldn't.
Foz, I genuinely sympathise with you, we try and tell the owners who may not know about the law but unfortunately many don't want to know and then say we're just trying to get their apartment on our books and their current team say otherwise to us....
You obviously manage in a fair way that benefits both the owner and yourselves. For Foz its a bad situation because if it is Konrad who has the majority it will surely affect quite a few places, thinking of Club Atlantis, Panorama & Santa Maria?
The law that allows someone else to dictate how many weeks you can use your own apartment cannot be fair.
Like Foz thought, we looked at a few apartments on these complexes in the past and were aware Konrad managed/owned some on each of them but we also were led to believe it was run on a sort of separate hotel type basis - his group operated Reception and the half board/b&b option if wanted, a separate entity from the private owners.
But that is the point. Many of the illegal letters are paying nothing into the system
So what ! In the UK we have the same people looking to make a good living,whats wrong with that ?Having looked thru most of this thread it seams that a lot of the bad feelings are coming from persons that live on the Island.I want to come back to Tenerife but some of the posters on this forum are quite nasty,with many bad comments,so sad.Yes I will be back to spend some cash and I will be looking out for the bad people..................
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Hey Lapalma.
Its nae wonder ye cannae come back to Tenerife as you clearly spent all yer lolly on some dubious pastimes whilst here?
"During the times myself and family have visited The Canary Islands we have stayed in tourist hotels and apartments that were pure crap and at one time I booked 2 apartments next to a brothel !"
Hey yo wise guy,had a look at some of your posts,dont think that you will get a pension from the UK !!!have you contacted the UK about your so called pension ?By the way is your house as big as your mouth ?have a nice evening Iam watching you...................
no loaded, there are no sensible reasons why the sole agency monoploy exploitation should exist at all. Its a peculiar canary law which exists in the canaries alone. There is no reasonable argument that can be put forward at all to explain plainly and simply why such a situation should exist.
There is no practicle reason why an apartment owner should not just rent out their apartment on their own without a sole agent being involved.
You may be a part of the sole agent system, it is currently the law in the canaries, but come on loaded, the rest of the world gets by without such nonsense, dont make us laugh by trying to pretend that there are sensible practicle or fair minded reasons why this system exists and should be continued.
I agree that the system does
Not suit owners who know how to market their apartment, have time to market their apartment, and for owners who have clients who understand the advantages and disadvantages or booking with such owners .....
However a system without a management structure such as the sole agent one means owners who Don't want to be as hands on as you do would have a poorer return.
Customers looking for accommodation would not find it as conveniently as they can presently (live availability and instant booking), there isn't as good a support network for fussy or unfortunate guests, I could go on but I've said it all before.
Dont think for a minute that the tourist laws were made with you on mind Nelson, they werent. They werent even made
With sole agents in mind - it's purely from the point of view of what
The government think the majority of customers want.
no loaded, there are no sensible reasons why the sole agency monoploy exploitation should exist at all. Its a peculiar canary law which exists in the canaries alone. There is no reasonable argument that can be put forward at all to explain plainly and simply why such a situation should exist.
There is no practicle reason why an apartment owner should not just rent out their apartment on their own without a sole agent being involved.
You may be a part of the sole agent system, it is currently the law in the canaries, but come on loaded, the rest of the world gets by without such nonsense, dont make us laugh by trying to pretend that there are sensible practicle or fair minded reasons why this system exists and should be continued.
The sensible thing is that the goverment controls tourism in its own country and the people who are renting to tourists are controlled , made to pay tax and offer a good,safe and clean product to the tourists who visit the country. As many of these property owners will not be resident in the country where they own the property they rent out,there HAS TO BE some control and accountability ; HENCE a rental company,with an office on the complex.Any problems with the property and the buck stops at them. Not some faceless, unavailable owner who may have taken his rent money and gone to the Maldives for his hols. Nelson, I'm convinced that you will eventually understand why the Spanish authorites don't trust owners to do the right thing is because historically they haven't done the right thing !!
junglejim
24-06-2012, 08:00
Foz - I have friends in a similiar situation , under the "control" of Konrad - what I don't understand from your comments is , that if he only has 30% ownership then he shouldn't be sole agent .
Surely the community can call an EGM to raise this point and have him voted out ?
The problem lies with getting access to all owners and their votes or proxies , especially if the administrator won't co-operate
.What is your President's position on this , does he need replacing too ?
We were lucky that Konrad pulled out of our complex as he fell well below the required majority but over the years he used his position to bully , threaten and hold back payments to the community . He still owns a small number of apartments and reception area but refuses to sell to us as it's a strategic asset .
He may only own 30% but of he has another 21% signed up to him everyone is stuck with him.
Even if you did all boycott him so he only had 30% then the rest of you would need 50%+1 signed up to another sole agent
Angusjim
24-06-2012, 09:31
It was assumed previously that the value of proprty on Tourisic complexes would if not increase in value would hold its price, but the more this goes on and you hear about situations like Foz why would anyone want to buy on Touristic complexes the only way is down for property prices & a return on your investment. I am very glad I sold mine a couple of years ago the loss I took on it now seems great value. It seems Tenerife is now closed for any one looking to buy property as an investment which should bring cheer to Fonica and her merry band, to all Brits if you want to invest in property do it in the UK and help our economy recover, your money is obviously not needed or wanted in Tenerife.
Back to that again nelson, for every reason you think there should be a change there is at least one reason why it shouldn't.
Foz, I genuinely sympathise with you, we try and tell the owners who may not know about the law but unfortunately many don't want to know and then say we're just trying to get their apartment on our books and their current team say otherwise to us....
Even now .... with all the fines being issued and the fact that I raised the issue of owners having to holiday through the sole agent to operate legally .... the community administrator is still not advising prospective owners of the correct (legal) way of operating. I was in the community office last week when a guy looking to buy in Altamira specifically asked about the possibility of holiday letting their apartment (bearing in mind they were only looking at this stage and had not even chosen which of the many apartments up for sale they wish to buy) and the administrator told them it was entirely up to them what they do with their apartment ... but it was best to be discreet!!!!!! Obviously I explained the situation to the guy afterwards ... which he though incredulous!
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The sensible thing is that the goverment controls tourism in its own country and the people who are renting to tourists are controlled , made to pay tax and offer a good,safe and clean product to the tourists who visit the country. As many of these property owners will not be resident in the country where they own the property they rent out,there HAS TO BE some control and accountability ; HENCE a rental company,with an office on the complex.Any problems with the property and the buck stops at them. Not some faceless, unavailable owner who may have taken his rent money and gone to the Maldives for his hols. Nelson, I'm convinced that you will eventually understand why the Spanish authorites don't trust owners to do the right thing is because historically they haven't done the right thing !!
But wouldn't it be more sensible to allow any number of local agents to work within a complex .. thereby offering a choice to owners. As soon as it is insisted that one company have the rights to each complex, that company has a monopoly and can dictate all sorts of daft terms and conditions! As soon as competition it allowed a more fair playing field is created.
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Foz - I have friends in a similiar situation , under the "control" of Konrad - what I don't understand from your comments is , that if he only has 30% ownership then he shouldn't be sole agent .
Surely the community can call an EGM to raise this point and have him voted out ?
The problem lies with getting access to all owners and their votes or proxies , especially if the administrator won't co-operate
.What is your President's position on this , does he need replacing too ?
We were lucky that Konrad pulled out of our complex as he fell well below the required majority but over the years he used his position to bully , threaten and hold back payments to the community . He still owns a small number of apartments and reception area but refuses to sell to us as it's a strategic asset .
I must say I don't understand this either!!! As I say .... 20% of the complex is time-share and completely under his control. A further 10% of owners have signed their apartments over to him. He did used to actually own a number of apartments in the complex that he operated as a "hotel", but sold them off to individuals about 10 years ago.
In all the years I have owned in the complex (13) the situation has never been discussed at an AGM. I raised the point at the AGM at the beginning of this year, after finding out about in at the end of last year. It appeared in the minutes and I expected many owners to contact me about the situation after the meeting .. but only very few did. The president is a German guy who seems to do an excellent job in all other areas .... but he feels quite strongly that Konrad should not be upset and that owners should just go along with what he offers or not rent out at all. I've tried very hard to try to get Konrad to either allow another agent to work alongside him to offer a choice to owners, or for him to offer a choice ... but he is just not interested in any compromise. As you say the difficultly lies in trying to organise the owners who wish to rent but don't want to do so through him. Most I have spoken to are of the opinion that they just need to stop advertising for a couple of years, carry on renting to regular clients and hope it all goes away in a couple of years!!!!!!!!!!
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He may only own 30% but of he has another 21% signed up to him everyone is stuck with him.
Even if you did all boycott him so he only had 30% then the rest of you would need 50%+1 signed up to another sole agent
As I say ... he has 10% signed up to him and 20% are time-share ... and that's it!! What worries me is if the complex gets changed to residential!! Having spent sop much on keeping it within tourist board spec it would be a real shame.
From my experience the reality will be this: Kurt konrad will have built the development, at the time of building them he will have registered all 100% of the complex with the tourist board..... then he will have sold off a certain amount of properties and kept others perhaps.
Although it looks like he only has 30% of the complex I bet if you checked with the cabildo as to how many he has REGISTERED the figure will be over 50%+1.
Allow me to explain a little further...... when a property is to be rented to tourists the sole agents has to REGISTER it with the cabildo, if the owner decides not to rent the apartment any more the sole agent should DE-REGISTER the apartment - if they do not do this then they are likely to be fined if the cabildo realise.....
The problem is that the cabildo do not check which are actively being let out and wether or not the sole agent is still holding keys and in control of each unit (it's too much work) so the cabildo rely on the hoensty of each sole agent to keep their list up to date.
I have always kept our list up to date and regularly add and subtract units from our registration when the need arises, when I was at the cabildo recently taking some units off, the guy in the cabildo made a comment along the lines of "you're the only one who ever does it"..... this was a surprise to me and I replied that it's in my own interest to keep it up to date, particularly at the moment when I'm applying for 3 stars and an inspection was iminent, the last thing I wanted during that inspection was to asked to show the inspector 3 apartments selected randomly and have to say "sorry I haven't actually got keys for that one!".
The best thing to do if I were you is go to the cabildo with your escritura and ID and ask how many properties are registered to Konrad..... you could also ask if your property is registered there too, if it is then you can de-register it there and then - after this I would explain the situation to the other owners - if there is a sizeable amount you could then go to Konrad with a threat of a mass "DE-REGISTRATION" of the units he is not in control of...... but BE VERY CAREFUL BECAUSE:
This is pretty much what happened at Los Geranios and the problem after you've usurped a sole agent there has to be a plan in place as to who will be put in place or you will end up with a "dormant touristic" complex with NO ONE ALLOWED TO RENT AT ALL.
Before you do this I would try to know your enemy a little better, what are his overheads, how much does it cost him to run the reception, how much is he paying staff, what other overheads is he paying for the owners? (community, water, electrics etc)....... how much does he charge guests to stay? What are the commissions he pays - they will be from 10% to 25% of the booking fees, but knowing how most of them work it will be 25% most of the time..... what is his expected occupancy and based on that how much is he paying an owner based on that?
The problem is that it's easier for a sole agent to say to an owner "I'll pay you 350 euros a month wether it's full or empty and I'll pay all the bills for you" rather than the way we do it which is "we'll pay you x per day it's occupied but won't guarantee how much it's occupied because theres good times and bad times" - think about it from an accounting point of view how much easier it is to say "you get this a month regardless" where as we trawl through the months bookings and pay each owner accordingly.
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Also re the "monopoly".... the tourist board aren't interested in individual owners having a choice who has their apartment, as far as they're concerned you "choice" is based on which complex you buy on, so if one complex pays buggar all, your choice is to buy on a complex that pays more.
The tourist board don't want competition between 2 companies on one complex - they want competition between one complex and another next door.
junglejim
24-06-2012, 11:57
Thanks for your info Loaded but in the case of Konrad and Los Geranios ,my understanding is that he lost his majority by having to give up some apartments he had sold on leaseback and falling out with Keil a fellow developer who had 15 or so apartments and withdrew them from Konrad's "basket" .
Konrad closed down his hotel side in Los Geranios and surrendered the licence to Turismo without consulting or telling the community , he has been causing us problems for years by non co-operation on several aspects of our site.
The issue with the other complexes is that they have to get organised and oppose Konrad at AGM/EGM's .
Thanks for your info Loaded but in the case of Konrad and Los Geranios ,my understanding is that he lost his majority by having to give up some apartments he had sold on leaseback and falling out with Keil a fellow developer who had 15 or so apartments and withdrew them from Konrad's "basket" .
Konrad closed down his hotel side in Los Geranios and surrendered the licence to Turismo without consulting or telling the community , he has been causing us problems for years by non co-operation on several aspects of our site.
The issue with the other complexes is that they have to get organised and oppose Konrad at AGM/EGM's .
Hi Jim,
I was using Los Geranios as an example of the void thats left when someone is forced out, I realise that the set up was differnet than how he is set up in other complexes, I still think he will have more registered on the other complexes than people realise (and that he actually lets).
I also realise the Los Geranios are now sorting themselves out after a period of uncertainty, my advice was really to be prepared for the day you do oust the sole agent because it's not that easy to get someone else in that can draw in the registrations - as Los Geranios have discovered
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