View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Yes there are plenty of touristic complexes for that type of tourist but they need to be legal complexes.
So the community can't appoint a new Sole Agent if they persuade the proxies to change, the rule doesn't matter , the AGM isn't relevant ?
Sounds like a nice cabal to me ! Maybe that's why Roberto is hanging tight with Ashotel !
Like I've said 1000 times in this thread, the community don't vote in or vote out the agent.
Owners sign up to a sole agent and those owners (which should be 50%+1) are what counts for the registration with cabildo - not a hand vote at an agm
duncan-6
29-12-2012, 11:35
Like I've said 1000 times in this thread, the community don't vote in or vote out the agent.
Owners sign up to a sole agent and those owners (which should be 50%+1) are what counts for the registration with cabildo - not a hand vote at an agm
So lets say a dormant touristic site has the required 50%+1 of owners, who finally accept there is no other way but to sign up with a sole agent and apply to the authorities to become legal,... if this complex needed to be upgraded to meet the criteria required for a touristic licence,:fire regs,shop etc, costing possibly £thousands, where does this money come from?...1, the 50% +1 only, 2,every owner, 3,increase in community fees for all?
Who picks these Sole agents,Who are they??? Its totally unworkable,it would also increase prices for the tourist, In all my years of holidaying in Tenerife i have never ever needed one! How would they enhance my holiday? I will stick to the tried and trusted method of knowing where and what my apartment / location is like thank you very much!
*sips Barraquito on balcony* :sunburn::christmascheer:
junglejim
29-12-2012, 13:04
So lets say a dormant touristic site has the required 50%+1 of owners, who finally accept there is no other way but to sign up with a sole agent and apply to the authorities to become legal,... if this complex needed to be upgraded to meet the criteria required for a touristic licence,:fire regs,shop etc, costing possibly £thousands, where does this money come from?...1, the 50% +1 only, 2,every owner, 3,increase in community fees for all?
There's the rub Duncan ! We're going through this process and a large bun-fight is coming up ! I don't let my apartment , I have no objection to others having a sole agent to let theirs but I have no intention of contributing to costs for meeting the regulations for licence to fill someone else's pocket . A lot of the maintenance and repairs we have is due to "Tourist Footfall" as some would call it !
We've just spent 40K on upgrading pool and may have to spend another 20K to augment the heating as well !
Who picks these Sole agents,Who are they??? Its totally unworkable
They are who ever gets voted in to represent the community of renters ie 50%+1 or more.
Voted in by whom?
They are who ever gets voted in to represent the community of renters ie 50%+1 or more.
Your answer is there ^
They are who ever gets voted in to represent the community of renters ie 50%+1 or more.
Under the new law the govt will appoint a sole agent to the dithering dormant touristics . No more hassle with residents not wanting to pay to the renting upgrades, they will have to move out for the tourists and be forced to pay for the upgrade .
Your answer is there ^
Happy days one and all
Happy days one and all
Nelson, is this a new year's resolution?
Nice short post, no messing about with historical names? I like it mate. :tiphat:
[QUOTE=TOTO 99;249061]Nelson, is this a new year's resolution?
Nice short post, no messing about with historical names? I like it mate. :tiphat:[/QUOTE
Ha ha, happy new year toto, no sorry I am still brimming with churchillian type rants and goddits law analgys.
That short post was cos on my new I phone I wrote my bit in 9 plus s bit, the bit in the balloon about residents out is me not 9 plus.
Altamira
02-01-2013, 14:54
I think many private renters also deal with agents (many now undergound) and some private renters are commercial sharks and they are not all trustworthy owners, many of their apartments are not clean
Pretty damning criticism - some evidence would be interesting.
My apologies for the delay in responding. Over the last 30 years of visiting Tenerife with friends and family, we have stayed in hotels and apartments, they have ranged from poor to excellent. My comments were in respose to someone suggesting that all private rentals are good, it has been our experience that this is not always the case. There is a need for some licence control covering all rented apartments, I think this could work without the need for sole agents, however if that failed then perhaps a sole agent could be appointed and controlled by the community of apartment owners and not visa versa.
Altamira
10-01-2013, 17:21
With regards to the new proposed tourist laws, does anyone have an update on what is being discussed by the Canary Government, are they seeking the views of the tourist apartment owners or are they only listening to the hotel industry. What is happening? are apartment owners being sidelined as being irrelevant? who is representing the apartment owners, particularly those who do not rent their apartments out?
duncan-6
10-01-2013, 17:50
With regards to the new proposed tourist laws, does anyone have an update on what is being discussed by the Canary Government, are they seeking the views of the tourist apartment owners or are they only listening to the hotel industry. What is happening? are apartment owners being sidelined as being irrelevant? who is representing the apartment owners, particularly those who do not rent their apartments out?
It's going through parliament, but could be months before anything definate comes out, Nelson is representing the apartment owners.
And world war 2 survivors
With regards to the new proposed tourist laws, does anyone have an update on what is being discussed by the Canary Government, are they seeking the views of the tourist apartment owners or are they only listening to the hotel industry. What is happening? are apartment owners being sidelined as being irrelevant? who is representing the apartment owners, particularly those who do not rent their apartments out?
o dear altimira, how can I bring you up to speed without upsetting toto with a long rambling post.
spain is a country in transition from dictatorship to democracy, so they do things different in their parliament. It seems no one is discussing the new law from the point of view of the apartment owners , either renters or residents. The canary govt is acting solely for the hotels industry, the tourismo minister is an ex ashhotel employee. Nothing is being considered in respect of , is any of this in the interests of the canary economy or people? they have done no duty of care to consider the wider economic impacts of what appears to me to be a purely protectionist policy.
Not one canary politician of any party or puersvasion has said one word in parliament to in any way critisise the policy of attacking the private renters rather than legalise and tax them, or indeed to help the residents who are to be fined 300,000 euros and expelled from the touristic complex's.The way the canarian parliament is approaching the issue you might think that the whole thing was perfectly normal , and not an incredible outrageous and riduclous farce, completely out of step with world wide norms and basic personal freedoms.
The one lobby group that emerged a year ago to campaign against the crackdown, alotca, has become invisible. Their policy is do no lobbying until the new law is in place. They seem to think that it matters not how extreme the govts debating, they need not raise a hand in any sort of protest, until the whole thing becomes actual law.
The alotca protest group includes leading lawyers who are only too willing to assist you with appealing illegal letting fines, doubtless they will in due course be offering help to the illegal residents who may be prosecuted under the new laws.
Objection your honour......:lol:
Altamira
11-01-2013, 10:24
o dear altimira, how can I bring you up to speed without upsetting toto with a long rambling post.
spain is a country in transition from dictatorship to democracy, so they do things different in their parliament. It seems no one is discussing the new law from the point of view of the apartment owners , either renters or residents. The canary govt is acting solely for the hotels industry, the tourismo minister is an ex ashhotel employee. Nothing is being considered in respect of , is any of this in the interests of the canary economy or people? they have done no duty of care to consider the wider economic impacts of what appears to me to be a purely protectionist policy.
Not one canary politician of any party or puersvasion has said one word in parliament to in any way critisise the policy of attacking the private renters rather than legalise and tax them, or indeed to help the residents who are to be fined 300,000 euros and expelled from the touristic complex's.The way the canarian parliament is approaching the issue you might think that the whole thing was perfectly normal , and not an incredible outrageous and riduclous farce, completely out of step with world wide norms and basic personal freedoms.
The one lobby group that emerged a year ago to campaign against the crackdown, alotca, has become invisible. Their policy is do no lobbying until the new law is in place. They seem to think that it matters not how extreme the govts debating, they need not raise a hand in any sort of protest, until the whole thing becomes actual law.
The alotca protest group includes leading lawyers who are only too willing to assist you with appealing illegal letting fines, doubtless they will in due course be offering help to the illegal residents who may be prosecuted under the new laws.
It is normally accepted that laws mean what they say, however some are suggesting otherwise. As a tourist apartment owner who does not rent out, I am certainly not relaxed about the wording contained within the proposed new tourist laws. It appears to me that some people are trying to keep the lid on the issues as they do not want to cause unessesary panic. However I think it is important that we are all kept up to date with the relevent discussions taking place within the Canary Government and why is this not openly reported in the newspapers (English spaeaking). I would like to know what the law makers and politicians actually think the wording will ultimately mean for tourist apartment owners, in particular those of us who do not rent out.
It's certainly interesting if it means what it looks like it means.
To be honest they need a way of edging non letting owners out of tourist blocks or the alternative is to keep building new tourist blocks because the existing ones have been bought up by people with no intention of letting.
That's unsustainable.
It is normally accepted that laws mean what they say, however some are suggesting otherwise. As a tourist apartment owner who does not rent out, I am certainly not relaxed about the wording contained within the proposed new tourist laws. It appears to me that some people are trying to keep the lid on the issues as they do not want to cause unessesary panic. However I think it is important that we are all kept up to date with the relevent discussions taking place within the Canary Government and why is this not openly reported in the newspapers (English spaeaking). I would like to know what the law makers and politicians actually think the wording will ultimately mean for tourist apartment owners, in particular those of us who do not rent out.
Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. The English speaking/written media in the islands is only as good as the information it can obtain, and when it does discover anything it reports it.
In any event, it is a fairly niche form of information provision. The real issue though is that the Canarian Government is currently discussing new proposals for legislation and as has been reported, it is likely to take until May before the final proposals are put forward rather than the original deadline of last December.
In the meantime it has also been reported that the building moratorium has also been extended until the same time, since the two are inextricably linked. What has emerged is that some consideration is being given to relaxing the 5* only rules since it has understandably come to light that the tourist industry feels this necessary.
Bottom line though remains that nobody really knows what form the new laws will finally take, and that whatever decisions are eventually made will be those which the Canarian Government believes are important for the islands they have been voted in to govern. Of course, as "foreigners" we have no vote and therefore at the end of the day, no say in how the Government here decides to govern.
Remember the days of the "wealth warnings" on adverts ... "the value of investments may increase or decrease!"
Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. The English speaking/written media in the islands is only as good as the information it can obtain, and when it does discover anything it reports it.
In any event, it is a fairly niche form of information provision. The real issue though is that the Canarian Government is currently discussing new proposals for legislation and as has been reported, it is likely to take until May before the final proposals are put forward rather than the original deadline of last December.
In the meantime it has also been reported that the building moratorium has also been extended until the same time, since the two are inextricably linked. What has emerged is that some consideration is being given to relaxing the 5* only rules since it has understandably come to light that the tourist industry feels this necessary.
Bottom line though remains that nobody really knows what form the new laws will finally take, and that whatever decisions are eventually made will be those which the Canarian Government believes are important for the islands they have been voted in to govern. Of course, as "foreigners" we have no vote and therefore at the end of the day, no say in how the Government here decides to govern.
Remember the days of the "wealth warnings" on adverts ... "the value of investments may increase or decrease!"
good point muppet,when I first come to Tenerife to buy property in the mid 80,s
a popular Irish estate agent [of the day] said to me invest now and you will make a
small fortune here,in truth the only way to make a small fortune in Tenerife
is to come with a large one!!
It is normally accepted that laws mean what they say, however some are suggesting otherwise. As a tourist apartment owner who does not rent out, I am certainly not relaxed about the wording contained within the proposed new tourist laws. It appears to me that some people are trying to keep the lid on the issues as they do not want to cause unessesary panic. However I think it is important that we are all kept up to date with the relevent discussions taking place within the Canary Government and why is this not openly reported in the newspapers (English spaeaking). I would like to know what the law makers and politicians actually think the wording will ultimately mean for tourist apartment owners, in particular those of us who do not rent out.
maybe my problem is that i am a plain speaking yorkshireman. When I hear that the canarian govt is discussing as part of its new tourism law , that they are going to ban residential living in touristic complex's and fine any cotraveners 300,000 eros, then I take that on board and think that maybe the so called campaign group, alotca would begin lobbying the govt and engaging other afffected parties in some sort of opposition.
I am told that we should all just sit around and wait until the final full law appears, as if to lobby the politicians is not required. In my experience in the uk when our lawmakers propose law changes , that is the point when campaign groups lobby and campaign to try to affect the outcome. An example would be the ban on fox hunting , the countrywide alliance sprang up to oppose the law changes. Here in yorkshire the govt is proposing to close our leeds based child heart unit, then we have to use one in newcastle, 100 miles further north. the parents of these children, some just babies, have been campaigning for some time to oppose these measures, just yesterday it was reported in the yorkshire post that the archbishop of york, mr semantu , has added his voice in support of the parents.
quite why alotca is advising people to do nothing and wait I have no idea.
delderek
11-01-2013, 19:49
As the advert would say "Simples" we have UK systems and we have Spanish systems. Do not try to make UK systems work in Spain. If you don't like the Spanish system sell up and leave, and buy a place in for instance Brighton and try to let out in an area where holiday letting is not allowed. You can speak the lingo and know the UK law,,,but just see how far you get!!
As the advert would say "Simples" we have UK systems and we have Spanish systems. Do not try to make UK systems work in Spain. If you don't like the Spanish system sell up and leave, and buy a place in for instance Brighton and try to let out in an area where holiday letting is not allowed. You can speak the lingo and know the UK law,,,but just see how far you get!!
Not sure what you mean by buying a place in Brighton where holiday letting is not allowed. I could buy any amount of places in the uk and let them out to tourists , it's not illegal .
For your information the properties we bought in Tenerife are fully legal to rent touristic , we made sure of that when we bought in 2004. Only thing is we have to involve the sole agent overload.
Indeed on our complex it is the soon to be illegal residents who will be fined,
Does that happen in Brighton ?
delderek
11-01-2013, 21:26
Not sure what you mean by buying a place in Brighton where holiday letting is not allowed. I could buy any amount of places in the uk and let them out to tourists , it's not illegal .
For your information the properties we bought in Tenerife are fully legal to rent touristic , we made sure of that when we bought in 2004. Only thing is we have to involve the sole agent overload.
Indeed on our complex it is the soon to be illegal residents who will be fined,
Does that happen in Brighton ?
Yes you could, but I said it is illegal in "some area's", And if you had purchased a place in one of these area's, and got fined, I have no doubt you would have said in Spain, they have ignored the law for 15 years,,,so why not ignore it in the UK.!!!
Yes you could, but I said it is illegal in "some area's", And if you had purchased a place in one of these area's, and got fined, I have no doubt you would have said in Spain, they have ignored the law for 15 years,,,so why not ignore it in the UK.!!!
I don't accept your point that if I don't like the Spanish system I should sell up and leave. That is insulting to the vast majority of canarians who themselves will be disgusted at their govts actions. Like many posters on here you bring that attitude in after I point out how extreme the govts actions are and out of step with the uk and Europe . Your actually saying ,well ok it's extreme but tough that's how they do things here.
The they in question are not the entire Canarian population but a small minority of corrupt bandits who are running the show this way to further their own commercial ends.
Don't insult the rest of the Canarian population by assuming that these policies and the new draft law are things that they want to see happen or that they want to live under a govt that is doing all this.
delderek
11-01-2013, 22:47
Your concern for the locals is applauded, but you must know different ones to me, The ones I know, couldn't give a damn about the letting laws. And outside of the Brit bubble areas, have never heard of them
Your concern for the locals is applauded, but you must know different ones to me, The ones I know, couldn't give a damn about the letting laws. And outside of the Brit bubble areas, have never heard of them
The issue could be down to publicity. Certainly the govt feels free to act in its extreme way without fear of opposition.
But that still does not mean that given the full facts the Canarian public would actually agree with these extreme policies, to imagine that scenario would be to condem all the canarians for the actions of just a few.you can not say that this is the Spanish way if we both agree that the majority of canarians don't know what is being done and being proposed by their govt.
It is the way of a small corrupt minority,and as such no reason for me to sell Up and run away.
bonitatime
11-01-2013, 23:51
Your concern for the locals is applauded, but you must know different ones to me, The ones I know, couldn't give a damn about the letting laws. And outside of the Brit bubble areas, have never heard of them
I am with you on this one. If I then explain it then those I have talked yo think it is a good idea to have one agent more control and tourists not occupying residential areas
What does a tourist complex have to have to be legal for example does it need a life guard,24 hr reception just curious a some dont have a life guard ect.
How do you know if somewhere is legal or illegal?
What does a tourist complex have to have to be legal for example does it need a life guard,24 hr reception just curious a some dont have a life guard ect.
Yes it needs a lifeguard, a reception that is permanently available to the clients (doesn't actually say 24 hour reception)..... The size of the rooms need to meet a certain punt of m2 (older builds will have no problem with that), taxi drop point that can fit a mini bus an a taxi simultaneously, beds need to be 2m long, full length mirrors in all rooms, 1800w hair drier in all rooms, free wifi at reception, the list is endless....
How do you know if somewhere is legal or illegal?
Surely you would be contacting a sole agents office via email from their website or at the very least i guess a 922 number if in Tenerife possible not just a mobile phone nor just a UK number
I imagine they would inform you of where their reception is and not ill send someone around or ill send you the keys.
For Arona Apartments look here - Arona Legal Apartments (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1105&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Arona Hotels look here - Arona Legal Hotels / Aparthotels (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1104&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Arona Rural accommodation look here - Arona Legal Rural Accommodation (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1106&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Adeje Hotels look here - Adeje Legal Hotels (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=27)
For Adeje Apartments look here - Adeje Legal Apartments (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=29)
For Adeje rural accommodation look here - Adeje Legal rural Accommodation (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=30)
See above from 9 plus
duncan-6
12-01-2013, 10:08
Not sure what you mean by buying a place in Brighton where holiday letting is not allowed. I could buy any amount of places in the uk and let them out to tourists , it's not illegal .
For your information the properties we bought in Tenerife are fully legal to rent touristic , we made sure of that when we bought in 2004. Only thing is we have to involve the sole agent overload.
Indeed on our complex it is the soon to be illegal residents who will be fined,
Does that happen in Brighton ?
please explain clearly, how a dormant touristic complex like yours is...fully legal to rent touristic.?
And also, how the residents will soon be illegal residents, and fined?
maybe my problem is that i am a plain speaking yorkshireman. When I hear that the canarian govt is discussing as part of its new tourism law , that they are going to ban residential living in touristic complex's and fine any cotraveners 300,000 eros, then I take that on board and think that maybe the so called campaign group, alotca would begin lobbying the govt and engaging other afffected parties in some sort of opposition.
I am told that we should all just sit around and wait until the final full law appears, as if to lobby the politicians is not required. In my experience in the uk when our lawmakers propose law changes , that is the point when campaign groups lobby and campaign to try to affect the outcome. An example would be the ban on fox hunting , the countrywide alliance sprang up to oppose the law changes. Here in yorkshire the govt is proposing to close our leeds based child heart unit, then we have to use one in newcastle, 100 miles further north. the parents of these children, some just babies, have been campaigning for some time to oppose these measures, just yesterday it was reported in the yorkshire post that the archbishop of york, mr semantu , has added his voice in support of the parents.
quite why alotca is advising people to do nothing and wait I have no idea.
warrareya doing about it nelson?
please explain clearly, how a dormant touristic complex like yours is...fully legal to rent touristic.?
And also, how the residents will soon be illegal residents, and fined?
When we bought in 2004 the estate agent knew we wanted to rent so took us to touristic complexs. On our place the sellers were the previous hotel company and they offered a deal , let them continue to let the apartment and pay you a flat fee of 4000 euro per year. We thought about this deal but older private renters on our place warned us that they usually got behind with payments and did people down, many months in arrears. With this advice we began renting ourselves, it was not hard to better the 4000 euro income.
We all sort of forgot about our sole agent as all the apartments were sold and began to be private rented. We replaced the agent as community president with an English president , and many improvements were made.
Thing is though, the agent never de registered us, maybe he did not want the hassle, so that explains why our place is still on aronas legal list.the actual licence is for three complexs, one has no community of owners.
So we are not dormant at all and never have been.
Removing residents from touristic sites is an important part of the new draft law, there are press releases from the summer to help you get up to speed with that issue.
Thing is though, the agent never de registered us, maybe he did not want the hassle, so that explains why our place is still on aronas legal list.the actual licence is for three complexs, one has no community of owners.
So we are not dormant at all and never have been.
What are you saying then nelson the tourist board fining you for illegal commercial renting on a residential complex was a mistake?
duncan-6
12-01-2013, 14:02
When we bought in 2004 the estate agent knew we wanted to rent so took us to touristic complexs. On our place the sellers were the previous hotel company and they offered a deal , let them continue to let the apartment and pay you a flat fee of 4000 euro per year. We thought about this deal but older private renters on our place warned us that they usually got behind with payments and did people down, many months in arrears. With this advice we began renting ourselves, it was not hard to better the 4000 euro income.
We all sort of forgot about our sole agent as all the apartments were sold and began to be private rented. We replaced the agent as community president with an English president , and many improvements were made.
Thing is though, the agent never de registered us, maybe he did not want the hassle, so that explains why our place is still on aronas legal list.the actual licence is for three complexs, one has no community of owners.
So we are not dormant at all and never have been.
Removing residents from touristic sites is an important part of the new draft law, there are press releases from the summer to help you get up to speed with that issue.
A resedential complex has a resedential licence, a touristic complex has a touristic licence but must have a sole agent, lifeguard,shop, etc, you say that your complex is not dormant touristic, so what exactly is dormant touristic?
not sure what you mean by buying a place in brighton where holiday letting is not allowed. I could buy any amount of places in the uk and let them out to tourists , it's not illegal .
For your information the properties we bought in tenerife are fully legal to rent touristic , we made sure of that when we bought in 2004. Only thing is we have to involve the sole agent overload.
Indeed on our complex it is the soon to be illegal residents who will be fined,
does that happen in brighton ?
wrong again!!!!!
See above from 9 plus
Thank you 9PLUS and Loaded useful information I didn't know!
The issue could be down to publicity. Certainly the govt feels free to act in its extreme way without fear of opposition.
But that still does not mean that given the full facts the Canarian public would actually agree with these extreme policies, to imagine that scenario would be to condem all the canarians for the actions of just a few.you can not say that this is the Spanish way if we both agree that the majority of canarians don't know what is being done and being proposed by their govt.
It is the way of a small corrupt minority,and as such no reason for me to sell Up and run away.
The majority of" Canarios" would agree with anything its government did to stop "Extranjeros" breaking the law,not paying their taxes; not using local and /or legal labour etc,..etc.,They are fed up with government policies that punish them, whilst allowing foreigners to do as they wish (as they see it).For example; buying two residential apartments and renting them to tourists.All the local people that I know think that there must be one rental agent for each comlex because there has to be accountability when things go wrong. This will not affect Nelson because he lives on a residential complex which will not become a "tourist complex" ,well not in our lifetime!!
What are you saying then nelson the tourist board fining you for illegal commercial renting on a residential complex was a mistake?
They did not fine me for what you say, I got 2 infractions , not havingcomplaint forms and not having a complaint book.
As I say, these things were actually in the reception of our sole agent all the time.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
A resedential complex has a resedential licence, a touristic complex has a touristic licence but must have a sole agent, lifeguard,shop, etc, you say that your complex is not dormant touristic, so what exactly is dormant touristic?
That would be a touristic complex with no current sole agent, hence a lapsed touristic licence. As I say, we thought that was us until discovering our sole agent still has the licence, it did not lapse and we never became dormant and we are not dormant today.
Yes it needs a lifeguard, a reception that is permanently available to the clients (doesn't actually say 24 hour reception)..... The size of the rooms need to meet a certain punt of m2 (older builds will have no problem with that), taxi drop point that can fit a mini bus an a taxi simultaneously, beds need to be 2m long, full length mirrors in all rooms, 1800w hair drier in all rooms, free wifi at reception, the list is endless....
Never seen a lifegaurd in Victoria crt 1 unless im realy blind both offices close about 5pm no fire protection ive always wondered about its status its co-ownership and privatley owned apartments is it touristic or residential?
They did not fine me for what you say, I got 2 infractions , not havingcomplaint forms and not having a complaint book.
As I say, these things were actually in the reception of our sole agent all the time.
And you couldn't get one of them because your apartment is situated on a residential complex.
essexeddie
12-01-2013, 17:28
Never seen a lifegaurd in Victoria crt 1 unless im realy blind both offices close about 5pm no fire protection ive always wondered about its status its co-ownership and privatley owned apartments is it touristic or residential?
It doesn't need a lifeguard as the pool area is fenced off [new EU rules] and locked at night.
Its both a tourist and residential.
Never seen a lifegaurd in Victoria crt 1 unless im realy blind both offices close about 5pm no fire protection ive always wondered about its status its co-ownership and privatley owned apartments is it touristic or residential?
Fire protection (smoke detectors at least) was never necessary for buildings with 1 or 2 floors so VC never needed smoke detectors but did need the rest of the fire protection measures ..... But then the government cancelled the law and it was no longer necessary
But they should have a lifeguard by law if they are touristic .
3. Las piscinas de uso colectivo contarán al menos con la presencia de un socorrista durante el horario de funcionamiento.
Pools of collective use should count on the presence of a lifeguard during the operating timetable of the pool.
5. Están exentas de la obligación de tener socorrista las piscinas ubicadas en edificaciones y construcciones de uso residencial no turístico, así como en establecimientos que ofrezcan servicios de alojamientos turísticos y cuya capacidad no exceda de 40 unidades alojativas, siempre que los vasos o la piscina dispongan de barreras de protección que impidan el acceso a los niños menores de seis años que no vayan acompañados por un adulto.
Exempt of the obligation to have a lifeguard are those pools located in buildings of residential non touristic use, and those establishments that are touristic bit whose capacity does not exceed 40 accommodation units, so long as there is a barrier that impedes the access to children under six years who is not accompanied by an adult.
So of any complex has a touristic license and is letting to tourists should have a lifeguard (unless they have less than 40 units).
Source : http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/boc/2010/182/001.html
essexeddie
12-01-2013, 19:01
But they should have a lifeguard by law if they are touristic .
No. Not if its fenced off.
No. Not if its fenced off.
Ok the government law is wrong then Eddie....
Would be great if, after spending 10 minutes of my time digging up the law and translating it, people who didn't agree would back up their claims somehow in return.....
No. Not if its fenced off.As far as im concerned a tourist complex requires a life guard if it has over 40 units can be fenced off if under 40.
heres a bad translation
. Exempted from the obligation of having lifeguard pools located in buildings and residential buildings not touristy as well as establishments offering tourist accommodation and services with a capacity not exceeding 40 accommodation units, provided the vessels or the pool have protective barriers preventing access to children under six years who are not accompanied by an adult.
essexeddie
12-01-2013, 19:20
Ok the government law is wrong then Eddie....
Thats a matter of opinion.
John i new the answer but if people dont believe you they woudnt believe me thanks for the reply David.
essexeddie
12-01-2013, 19:23
', provided the vessels or the pool have protective barriers preventing access to children under six years who are not accompanied by an adult.'
There you are.
', provided the vessels or the pool have protective barriers preventing access to children under six years who are not accompanied by an adult.'
There you are.Think you should go and read the lot again you have taken it out of context!
', provided the vessels or the pool have protective barriers preventing access to children under six years who are not accompanied by an adult.'
There you are.
You're just reading the part you want to. Re read the entire post I dug out, it clearly says that :
All pools have to have a lifeguard.
There is an exemption of having to have a lifeguard for residential complexes with no tourist use.
And an exemption for tourist establishments that have no more than 40 units.
The ones who are exempt need to have a fence around the pool.
So Victoria court, if it has a tourist license needs a lifeguard.
If it doesn't have a tourist license then they don't need a lifeguard but then that would make all tourist letting illegal.
Perhaps those council/tourist officals who make regular inspections of Victoria Court to ensure the complex meets the current standards should be directed to this forum so they can be reminded what the law is as they seem to not know what they are doing.
Or just to the laws they have copies of?
Or just to the laws they have copies of?
....... thats why they should read this forum and read your posts so they can get up to speed on the curent law.
Perhaps those council/tourist officals who make regular inspections of Victoria Court to ensure the complex meets the current standards should be directed to this forum so they can be reminded what the law is as they seem to not know what they are doing.
Or they could just ask essexeddie if it's ok by him! :devil:
Lets have a vote who is the worst Essexeddie or Nelson
duncan-6
15-01-2013, 21:15
We are looking to buy an apartment in L/C, not for rental, ourselves only, not interested in touristic or dormant touristic, is there such a thing as a list of resedential complexes which we could be directed to? Thanks.
We are looking to buy an apartment in L/C, not for rental, ourselves only, not interested in touristic or dormant touristic, is there such a thing as a list of resedential complexes which we could be directed to? Thanks.
Start yourself another thread
cheers
There's no list but look for places without a lifeguard, without a reception, without the key or star symbol outside..... A sign saying "residential....."
We are looking to buy an apartment in L/C, not for rental, ourselves only, not interested in touristic or dormant touristic, is there such a thing as a list of resedential complexes which we could be directed to? Thanks.
It will be very difficult to buy in LC on a purely residential complex. You need the more recent ones for sure, older stuff in LC tends to be dormant touristic .
The more recent complex's in LC that are fully residential are the big illegal tourist letting ones, so if you want to avoid interference from tourists avoid buying on a full residential complex in lc
Peterrayner
16-01-2013, 08:42
I am a private owner on a residential apartment complex in LC,,NOT an AGENT
If you can send me some details..ie
1 bed or 2 bed, budget, etc
I can send some pictures etc.
Peter
lcbandit
17-01-2013, 07:40
quick question regarding illegal letting, if your apartment and complex meet all the requirments but doesn't have a sole letting agent are the authorities going to still come after you? also if you did employ a sole letting agent what's to say they won't do a runner with your money etc. where's the 'cover' for the owner ? is this not part of the reason alot of owners rent out themselves? (ok so it wasn't a quick question lol)
quick question regarding illegal letting, if your apartment and complex meet all the requirments but doesn't have a sole letting agent are the authorities going to still come after you? also if you did employ a sole letting agent what's to say they won't do a runner with your money etc. where's the 'cover' for the owner ? is this not part of the reason alot of owners rent out themselves? (ok so it wasn't a quick question lol)
They would come after you, they have targeted the owners direct advertisers in the main, as the law stands you can only legally rent through the sole agent.
Whether the sole agent is a good or bad payer is going to vary, like anything else.i can tell you from my personal experience that we were warned 9 years ago when we bought our apartment not to use the sole agent , on the grounds that he would be likely not to pay us and do us out of 6 months rent in arrears. This was the advice we were given from people who the agent had done down in the past. We have therefore rented happily ourselves for 9 years.
quick question regarding illegal letting, if your apartment and complex meet all the requirments but doesn't have a sole letting agent are the authorities going to still come after you? also if you did employ a sole letting agent what's to say they won't do a runner with your money etc. where's the 'cover' for the owner ? is this not part of the reason alot of owners rent out themselves? (ok so it wasn't a quick question lol)
The advice would be to get to know the license holder on your complex and weigh up for yourself if you think you can trust them with your apartment - are they going to do a runner? Well if it's a big company like HG or Konrad they are unlikely to be able to dissapear overnight, if they're not a big company but they own property on the complex you can determine how long term they are going to be by:
1. how long have they been there.
2. how much property do they own on the complex (if they are serious about it they will have invested in their own service)?
Listening to hearsay like Nelson did is dangerous so be sure to find out for yourself, otherwise you might just miss out on a good business relationship and receive a fine in the process.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Whether the sole agent is a good or bad payer is going to vary, like anything else.i can tell you from my personal experience that we were warned 9 years ago when we bought our apartment not to use the sole agent , on the grounds that he would be likely not to pay us and do us out of 6 months rent in arrears. This was the advice we were given from people who the agent had done down in the past. We have therefore rented happily ourselves for 9 years.
this is misleading Nelson............ "we have rented happily ourselves for 9 years".... yes until the authorities fined you for not being with the sole agent - who had pulled out of the complex by that point.
Spectacularly bad advice was given to you as it turns out. Was the sole agent a con merchant? None of us know and he obviously pulled out of Sur Y Sol because either.
1. he was a con man and everyone knew it so he fled.
2. he wasn't a con man but the rumour had circulated that he was so was unable to run his business to a high enough profit.
Either way the advice given to you not to go with him left you open to an 18 grand fine, which you eventually received. So that was bad advice.
duncan-6
17-01-2013, 17:38
The advice would be to get to know the license holder on your complex and weigh up for yourself if you think you can trust them with your apartment - are they going to do a runner? Well if it's a big company like HG or Konrad they are unlikely to be able to dissapear overnight, if they're not a big company but they own property on the complex you can determine how long term they are going to be by:
1. how long have they been there.
2. how much property do they own on the complex (if they are serious about it they will have invested in their own service)?
Listening to hearsay like Nelson did is dangerous so be sure to find out for yourself, otherwise you might just miss out on a good business relationship and receive a fine in the process.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
this is misleading Nelson............ "we have rented happily ourselves for 9 years".... yes until the authorities fined you for not being with the sole agent - who had pulled out of the complex by that point.
Spectacularly bad advice was given to you as it turns out. Was the sole agent a con merchant? None of us know and he obviously pulled out of Sur Y Sol because either.
1. he was a con man and everyone knew it so he fled.
2. he wasn't a con man but the rumour had circulated that he was so was unable to run his business to a high enough profit.
Either way the advice given to you not to go with him left you open to an 18 grand fine, which you eventually received. So that was bad advice.
I suspect number 2 is half correct, in that the sole agent wasn't bent, but collectively all the private owners new they could do far better advertiseing individually...internet, word of mouth etc, and decided between them to "push under the carpet" this agent geezer, because he/she was "getting in the way" of their greed, and to hell with paying due taxes to the canaries gov.
That's a very likely third option lol
A complex full of "Nelsons" was never going to allow an onsite agent to flourish.Working within the law wasn't important to them , only making the maximum amount of money for the minimum outlay and without accountability for the safety of the unsuspecting tourists.It's still going on but to a lesser extent and in time will stop.
Altamira
18-01-2013, 12:47
A complex full of "Nelsons" was never going to allow an onsite agent to flourish.Working within the law wasn't important to them , only making the maximum amount of money for the minimum outlay and without accountability for the safety of the unsuspecting tourists.It's still going on but to a lesser extent and in time will stop. Surely a system of individual tourist licensed & inspected apartments could work, without the need for a sole agent. However if a sole agent is going to be forced upon all tourist apartments whether rented or not, then this raises many other horrendous issues concerning the banning of residential use of tourist apartments.
Surely a system of individual tourist licensed & inspected apartments could work, without the need for a sole agent. However if a sole agent is going to be forced upon all tourist apartments whether rented or not, then this raises many other horrendous issues concerning the banning of residential use of tourist apartments.
To a point you're right, an inspection and licensing system could work, but the real problem and probably the reason it is not being considered is the sheer number of individual apartments in all the resort areas of all the Canary Islands. Keeping tabs on who is/isn't licensed, insured, the monitoring of works required, giving individual alterations permissions, regular inspections and checking of complaint books and so on would be a logistical nightmare to establish and monitor going forward. Monitoring and controlling the situation on a complex by complex basis is probably the most efficient way forward, and holding a single representative responsible for safety of an entire complex, rather than dozens and in some cases hundreds of individual owners provides a structure of accountability which could be supported in law is the only real way forward.
This though is not to say that there should not be more rights given to owners in the selection/dismissal of the sole agent which is an entirely different discussion.
it would be quite straightforward to move to a system of permited individual private letting. They have done this in portugal, the annual fee is 400 euros.
In the canaries , with a year round season, the fee could be 1200 euros.
We have a situation now in the canaries where the chemists are running out of supplies and the lifeguards on the beaches have not been paid for months. Starting this april every private renter in the canaries should be legalised abd have to pay 1200 euros permit, that is per apartment and for the year 2013/2014. After paying their permit for the year these apartment owners should then get back on the internet and get some tourist footfall for the islands for summer 2013.
That should boost the islands economy and at the same time get some supplies for the chemists and some wages for the lifeguards.
Altamira
18-01-2013, 15:53
it would be quite straightforward to move to a system of permited individual private letting. They have done this in portugal, the annual fee is 400 euros.
In the canaries , with a year round season, the fee could be 1200 euros.
We have a situation now in the canaries where the chemists are running out of supplies and the lifeguards on the beaches have not been paid for months. Starting this april every private renter in the canaries should be legalised abd have to pay 1200 euros permit, that is per apartment and for the year 2013/2014. After paying their permit for the year these apartment owners should then get back on the internet and get some tourist footfall for the islands for summer 2013.
That should boost the islands economy and at the same time get some supplies for the chemists and some wages for the lifeguards.
I would add to Nelsons comments by adding that this suggested license fee could be applied to all apartments including the tourist apartments that are not being rented out. This would further increase the income for the Canary Government and the system of licensing and inspections would create additional employment for the Canary Islands.
duncan-6
18-01-2013, 18:32
it would be quite straightforward to move to a system of permited individual private letting. They have done this in portugal, the annual fee is 400 euros.
In the canaries , with a year round season, the fee could be 1200 euros.
We have a situation now in the canaries where the chemists are running out of supplies and the lifeguards on the beaches have not been paid for months. Starting this april every private renter in the canaries should be legalised abd have to pay 1200 euros permit, that is per apartment and for the year 2013/2014. After paying their permit for the year these apartment owners should then get back on the internet and get some tourist footfall for the islands for summer 2013.
That should boost the islands economy and at the same time get some supplies for the chemists and some wages for the lifeguards.
Anything but the sole agent eh nelson, and after 9 years of local tax evasion, all of a sudden you have sympathy for chemists and lifeguards, priceless!
So when tourists arrive at your apartment nelson do you inform the Police every week/2 week turnover?
Do you send them an email ?
Today I spoke to Pedro at the Cabildo and I asked about the "fines for owners who don't let on tourist complexes" and he said it is as we have interpreted it, he's very interested to see if it is passed, it will make catching the illegal lets who hide behind the "friends and family" excuse easy to whack with a fine.
will be an interesting few months!
Anything but the sole agent eh nelson, and after 9 years of local tax evasion, all of a sudden you have sympathy for chemists and lifeguards, priceless!
for the record and once again, I pay my taxes on my holiday letting in the uk , as i am entilted to do. I am self employed and my earnings from letting are part of my uk tax return. I could opt to pay in spain, but the choice is mine and its a case of it has to be one or the other. Given the amount of overheads that are allowable on our gross letting revenues , eg, cleaning, utiliyies, advertising, replacing furniture, decorating and mortgage interest, I must say that the amounts payable are quite reasonable. The annual returns from gross renting are not all profit, as in any business.
What people who critise private renters also have to remember , is the value of the tourists we bring to the canaries in terms of their actual spending into the canarian economy. Over the past nine years we have acomodated tourists who spend their money in the islands, and by doing so they provide economic activity for business,s and of course they contribute to taxes , most of their purchases attract tax at point of purchase.
Even if myself and other renters were tax cheats in the past, that in itself is no reason to not move things forward now and begin to tax this part of the tourist industry. Forgiveness and repentance is a fundamental christian belief, and the lack of a tax contribution from the private renters to the canarian tax authorities could and should be put right in my opinion.
Taxing the private renters should be a part of the future from here on, we all ahve to move on and we can not live in the past. The need for the 1200 euro per apartment tax is urgent, for the canary economy, it should start now this april 2013.
I would add to Nelsons comments by adding that this suggested license fee could be applied to all apartments including the tourist apartments that are not being rented out. This would further increase the income for the Canary Government and the system of licensing and inspections would create additional employment for the Canary Islands.
We looked at an apartment recently that was touristic or dormant, we were very interested but only for our own use. I think we will forget about it until things are fully confirmed with letting laws.
What's un confirmed ? It's been law for 17 or 18 years
What's un confirmed ? It's been law for 17 or 18 years
What he means is, he would have bought it, but not if he can't just use the dormant touristic himself, he won't buy it if he is going to be forced to rent it out or risk a 300000 euro fine if he is caught living in it
He waiting for confirmation of the new 2013 law
Nelson
Once again you are overlooking the fundamental principle of tourism in these islands. What is being sought by those in charge is accountability and control which would provide guarantees of security for holiday makers and guarantees of standards and quality.
With the best will in the world you cannot expect every owner to comply with laws on standards and without some form of regular and frequent inspection it won't happen. You may be squeaky clean with your king-sized beds and fire extinguishers but others are not and it only takes a single incident to tarnish an entire industry.
You also clearly have no idea how the Spanish tax system works either and the way in which taxes are collected centrally by Spain and re-distributed to the provinces in the form of grants. The reason there are no drugs in chemists is that the subsidy given back to the islands from the national tax-take has been progressively cut for the past few years and it is from these grants that the local government is expected to run the Canarian health service amongst many other things. It would make little difference whether you were personally responsible for doubling tourist numbers single-handidly, the Canarian government would still not be able to pay the bills.
The logistics of dealing with a licence for every individual owner of a holiday let and ensuring compliance with standards as laid down would be horrendous and for that matter provide for added corruption to an already corruption riddled system. The tourist licences you are advocating would, if introduced, come down to the size of your brown envelope and not the size of the beds you proudly bought for your apartments, so be very careful what you wish for.
Even if everything were to go to your plan - these islands alone have some 12+ million tourists a year visiting and they (we) receive precious little support from central Government for our contribution to the Spanish economy as it is - removal of airport subsidies for example. Portugal as an entire country receives around 7 million tourists - half that of these islands alone, nor does it suffer like Spain with regional governmental issues. Putting that into context Spain as a whole avereges at around 50 million tourists a year - there is simply no comparison between the two. Licensing might well work in Portugal but here, in a relatively tiny and poor province of Spain?? ..... nah.....
What is of concern though are the issues to which Loaded and others have referred to in recent posts as to the use of touristic apartments for effectively residential use. However, as has been made very clear already it will be some months before all of the draft proposals that have been thrown into the parliamentary debate(s) emerge as some form of law. Whereas at the moment the Canarian approach to its tourism systems has been tried and tested by the EU, any significant alterations which may include what may amount to evictions of tax-paying residents from their own homes will certainly bring recourse from Brussels.
All that said Nelson, what is quite clear is that there is absolutely no intention to bring in any form of system which would meet with your approval - either in April 2013 or by April 2113. Best cut your losses now then!
But the portuguese Model....
Nelson
Once again you are overlooking the fundamental principle of tourism in these islands. What is being sought by those in charge is accountability and control which would provide guarantees of security for holiday makers and guarantees of standards and quality.
With the best will in the world you cannot expect every owner to comply with laws on standards and without some form of regular and frequent inspection it won't happen. You may be squeaky clean with your king-sized beds and fire extinguishers but others are not and it only takes a single incident to tarnish an entire industry.
You also clearly have no idea how the Spanish tax system works either and the way in which taxes are collected centrally by Spain and re-distributed to the provinces in the form of grants. The reason there are no drugs in chemists is that the subsidy given back to the islands from the national tax-take has been progressively cut for the past few years and it is from these grants that the local government is expected to run the Canarian health service amongst many other things. It would make little difference whether you were personally responsible for doubling tourist numbers single-handidly, the Canarian government would still not be able to pay the bills.
The logistics of dealing with a licence for every individual owner of a holiday let and ensuring compliance with standards as laid down would be horrendous and for that matter provide for added corruption to an already corruption riddled system. The tourist licences you are advocating would, if introduced, come down to the size of your brown envelope and not the size of the beds you proudly bought for your apartments, so be very careful what you wish for.
Even if everything were to go to your plan - these islands alone have some 12+ million tourists a year visiting and they (we) receive precious little support from central Government for our contribution to the Spanish economy as it is - removal of airport subsidies for example. Portugal as an entire country receives around 7 million tourists - half that of these islands alone, nor does it suffer like Spain with regional governmental issues. Putting that into context Spain as a whole avereges at around 50 million tourists a year - there is simply no comparison between the two. Licensing might well work in Portugal but here, in a relatively tiny and poor province of Spain?? ..... nah.....
What is of concern though are the issues to which Loaded and others have referred to in recent posts as to the use of touristic apartments for effectively residential use. However, as has been made very clear already it will be some months before all of the draft proposals that have been thrown into the parliamentary debate(s) emerge as some form of law. Whereas at the moment the Canarian approach to its tourism systems has been tried and tested by the EU, any significant alterations which may include what may amount to evictions of tax-paying residents from their own homes will certainly bring recourse from Brussels.
All that said Nelson, what is quite clear is that there is absolutely no intention to bring in any form of system which would meet with your approval - either in April 2013 or by April 2113. Best cut your losses now then!
i dont accept that the sole agent system is a valuable consumer protection tool. The private renting industry has managed quite well in the canaries for a great many years, and has many many satisfied customers and repeat bookings. You post as if the private renters have caused some sort of major problem , upsetting customers and getting the canaries are bad name, the truth is completely the opposite. The private renters represent a growing industry in canary island tourism, where as the hotels industry is struggling to attract customers, standards in the hotels is often critisised and alternative destinations are taking the customers.
You refer to eu previous investigations into sole agency, but times have changed. What portugal is allowed to do , and what a customer can be free to rent in portugal , well that has to be uniform throughout the eu.
The canarian sole agent system is completely out of step with world wide practices, as I have said so many times before, anything that is out of step with reality does not last in this world. Sole agency is an artifical invention that serves no practicle purpose. History shows us that such things get swept away by real world influnces.
A change will come.
Sole agents next level stuff
i dont accept that the sole agent system is a valuable consumer protection tool. The private renting industry has managed quite well in the canaries for a great many years, and has many many satisfied customers and repeat bookings. You post as if the private renters have caused some sort of major problem , upsetting customers and getting the canaries are bad name, the truth is completely the opposite. The private renters represent a growing industry in canary island tourism, where as the hotels industry is struggling to attract customers, standards in the hotels is often critisised and alternative destinations are taking the customers.
You refer to eu previous investigations into sole agency, but times have changed. What portugal is allowed to do , and what a customer can be free to rent in portugal , well that has to be uniform throughout the eu.
The canarian sole agent system is completely out of step with world wide practices, as I have said so many times before, anything that is out of step with reality does not last in this world. Sole agency is an artifical invention that serves no practicle purpose. History shows us that such things get swept away by real world influnces.
A change will come.
Change will indeed come! You will have to pay your fines or lose your apartments,people renting in Spain will have to pay their taxes here and sole agents will be in all touristic complexes and will be accountable for any problems on site.They will make sure that the police are informed with details of tourists staying on their complexes.To avoid family and friends being used as a way of cheating the system,touristic complexes will only be used for holiday rentals.
No,I don't believe any of this will happen overnight but it will happen and if that is what the Spanish or Canarian Government want then we will have to obey their laws.I also find it difficult to believe that Nelson has declared 40 weeks per annum rental income on his two apartments, over the past however many year,to the inland revenue. Please Nelson don't feign interest in the Canarian economy and then opt to pay (or not pay) your taxes o nincome earned in Spain,in the UK.The Canarian economy will do just fine without you and your illegal business as will the local shops,restaurants and bars who no doubt have to pay their taxes and labour costs.
jogger321
19-01-2013, 15:24
where as the hotels industry is struggling to attract customers, standards in the hotels is often critisised and alternative destinations are taking the customers.
Not the hotels I or my friends stay..They are running at virtually full occupancy .
But often this is at too low a price to be viable, they are buying work and being silly busy
Altamira
19-01-2013, 16:59
But often this is at too low a price to be viable, they are buying work and being silly busy
I am beginning to think this whole illegal rental issue is driven by the monopoly crazed sole agents rather than the actual hotels. It appears to me that the sole agents are the main group of businesses that are going to profit from the enforcement of the 1995 tourist laws and the new proposed tourist laws. I believe that the sole agents are the ones pushing for the enforcement at the expense of the smaller agencies and individual tourist apartment owner whether they rent or not.
I am beginning to think this whole illegal rental issue is driven by the monopoly crazed sole agents rather than the actual hotels. It appears to me that the sole agents are the main group of businesses that are going to profit from the enforcement of the 1995 tourist laws and the new proposed tourist laws. I believe that the sole agents are the ones pushing for the enforcement at the expense of the smaller agencies and individual tourist apartment owner whether they rent or not.
A bit strong but I get your point.
In their defence, I'd do exactly the same in their position.
It's true that they have a lot to gain and for now the laws are working well for them. But they have their futures at stake if they don't stay on top of the situation. A simple shift in the law towards Nelson's way of thinking for instance, and the agents wouldn't be required.
This law could take a few twists before they finally settle on a decision. There's nothing saying that the authorities won't insist on replacing current agents with one of their own choice.
Sounds stupid? Who would have thought when this thread started that this far down the line we'd be discussing people being fined for Not letting if they live on a touristic site? Stranger things have happened...........
I am beginning to think this whole illegal rental issue is driven by the monopoly crazed sole agents rather than the actual hotels. It appears to me that the sole agents are the main group of businesses that are going to profit from the enforcement of the 1995 tourist laws and the new proposed tourist laws. I believe that the sole agents are the ones pushing for the enforcement at the expense of the smaller agencies and individual tourist apartment owner whether they rent or not.
I have to disagree with you on this. To start with the laws came in in 1995 at the instigation of the hotel mafia at that time. It was not started to help sole agents, they did not exist at that time. We all know that after that introduction , which was due to the economic downturn of the early 90s , the whole thing was forgotten , there was plenty of customers for the hotels.
The law in 95 created nearly hotel type requirements on apartments, unnecessary add ons to self catering accommodation , just to make hotels less scared of apartment competition .
The irony is in 2013 , this crackdown is helping sole agents and of course not getting ex apartment customers into hotels.
That silly idea is the heart of the problem and it beggars belief that the canary govt could ignore the normal world wide scenario of independent renting of holiday homes and seek to have them run in large hotel like groups under a monopoly sole agent. This odd strange policy exists due to the hotel industry pressure and their hold over the canary govt.
But do you see a change nelson ?
But do you see a change nelson ?
At the end of the day I put my faith in common sense, the Alice in wonderland situation of holiday letting in the canaries has to change.
I realise because the govt are so aggressive for now on their irrational position you think my common sense reasoning will not bare fruit in the future .
For now it's enough to continue to campaign for sensible reform and continue to state sensible and reasonable solutions.
When general de gaule flew to England in 1940 he made the call the next day for France to continue the fight. He spoke against the legal French govt who were making an armistice with hitler. This one rouge general saved the honour of France by making the call to continue the fight he knew France and her allies would eventually win.
The letting crackdown may seem to you to be against the odds today , but the fundamentals of free renting are undeniable in the future .
An unnatural , unnecessary system is ultimately going to be reformed .
We have to be patient and steadfast , but change will come.
Tom & Sharon
20-01-2013, 00:36
At the end of the day I put my faith in common sense, the Alice in wonderland situation of holiday letting in the canaries has to change.
I realise because the govt are so aggressive for now on their irrational position you think my common sense reasoning will not bare fruit in the future .
For now it's enough to continue to campaign for sensible reform and continue to state sensible and reasonable solutions.
When general de gaule flew to England in 1940 he made the call the next day for France to continue the fight. He spoke against the legal French govt who were making an armistice with hitler. This one rouge general saved the honour of France by making the call to continue the fight he knew France and her allies would eventually win.
The letting crackdown may seem to you to be against the odds today , but the fundamentals of free renting are undeniable in the future .
An unnatural , unnecessary system is ultimately going to be reformed .
We have to be patient and steadfast , but change will come.
Oh gawd not Hitler again!!!! :doh:
Close it now :wink:
Makes a change from Franco I 'spose ........
Have you ever put your point across without using an elaborate , irrelevant , historic metaphor?
Altamira
20-01-2013, 10:23
I have to disagree with you on this. To start with the laws came in in 1995 at the instigation of the hotel mafia at that time. It was not started to help sole agents, they did not exist at that time. We all know that after that introduction , which was due to the economic downturn of the early 90s , the whole thing was forgotten , there was plenty of customers for the hotels.
The law in 95 created nearly hotel type requirements on apartments, unnecessary add ons to self catering accommodation , just to make hotels less scared of apartment competition .
The irony is in 2013 , this crackdown is helping sole agents and of course not getting ex apartment customers into hotels.
That silly idea is the heart of the problem and it beggars belief that the canary govt could ignore the normal world wide scenario of independent renting of holiday homes and seek to have them run in large hotel like groups under a monopoly sole agent. This odd strange policy exists due to the hotel industry pressure and their hold over the canary govt.
Hello Nelson
I think you will find that there is a connection between some sole agents and the complex developers and hotel industry. As things stand it is only the sole agents that are going to gain from the tourist laws old or new. I assume that they will try to extend their grip onto complexes that are presently under the control of independent sole agents. This could ultimately become a property grab via the back door with little or no compensation to the existing individual owners.
Have you ever put your point across without using an elaborate , irrelevant , historic metaphor?
As long as the point is made the metaphor is relevant.thats how you debate issues. I realise you can't find examples from history to show that the odd and unnatural sole agent system might remain and flourish in the future.
Hello Nelson
I think you will find that there is a connection between some sole agents and the complex developers and hotel industry. As things stand it is only the sole agents that are going to gain from the tourist laws old or new. I assume that they will try to extend their grip onto complexes that are presently under the control of independent sole agents. This could ultimately become a property grab via the back door with little or no compensation to the existing individual owners.
You may be right here, there is talk of compulsory upgrades,some existing sole agents may not be up for that, the govt will impose a new one.
Our own non dormant agent will take over our place and evict the residents, he may not be wanting the job, he sold us the apartments in the first place
As he could not make them pay
welshman
20-01-2013, 11:57
for the record and once again, I pay my taxes on my holiday letting in the uk , as i am entilted to do. I am self employed and my earnings from letting are part of my uk tax return. I could opt to pay in spain, but the choice is mine and its a case of it has to be one or the other. Given the amount of overheads that are allowable on our gross letting revenues , eg, cleaning, utiliyies, advertising, replacing furniture, decorating and mortgage interest, I must say that the amounts payable are quite reasonable. The annual returns from gross renting are not all profit, as in any business.
What people who critise private renters also have to remember , is the value of the tourists we bring to the canaries in terms of their actual spending into the canarian economy. Over the past nine years we have acomodated tourists who spend their money in the islands, and by doing so they provide economic activity for business,s and of course they contribute to taxes , most of their purchases attract tax at point of purchase.
Even if myself and other renters were tax cheats in the past, that in itself is no reason to not move things forward now and begin to tax this part of the tourist industry. Forgiveness and repentance is a fundamental christian belief, and the lack of a tax contribution from the private renters to the canarian tax authorities could and should be put right in my opinion.
Taxing the private renters should be a part of the future from here on, we all ahve to move on and we can not live in the past. The need for the 1200 euro per apartment tax is urgent, for the canary economy, it should start now this april 2013.
I,m sorry to inform you that if you have been advised, its either or where to pay your tax it is totally incorrect. You must pay your tax on rental income in the country where your property is and also declare it on your UK return.
I must also comment that not all renters have not paid their tax, but have been informed whilst declaring all earnings in tenerife for tax and using approved legal cleaning agents. That they are illegal letting due to the law. So these people have stopped letting reducing tax that was previously collected talk to Marcos Caberas .
I,m sorry to inform you that if you have been advised, its either or where to pay your tax it is totally incorrect. You must pay your tax on rental income in the country where your property is and also declare it on your UK return.
To be honest though, if you are doing anything in Tenerife that should be taxed then it seems you should do everything you can to avoid paying it. It´s Tenerife after all and all us expats and non-residents should try and fit in with the local way of life as much as possible - which means dodging as much tax as possible, paying everything in cash etc. Dodge tax, eat gofio and stop using the inside lane on roundabouts - now you´re a Canarian!!!!
There´s a thread here where everyone pretty much agrees that's the way ahead :)
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23499-Why-don-t-Canarians-ever-want-to-pay-any-tax
As long as the point is made the metaphor is relevant.thats how you debate issues.
or you could just debate the issues using the events of the day rather than trying to liken your opponent to Hitler or other historically unpopular figures in an attempt to vilify them.
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it's a lazy form of debate.
or you could just debate the issues using the events of the day rather than trying to liken your opponent to Hitler or other historically unpopular figures in an attempt to vilify them.
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it's a lazy form of debate.
Young man, you are missing the point of my answer to 9 plus totally , and my little story about Charles de gaule in 1940.
Forget hitler, I was not making any opponents on here into hitler. Hitler is not the issue in the story. The issue is one Frenchman who spoke up for what he thought his country should do in 1940, ie, fight on, when many others thought that events damanded an armistice .france was in ruins, her army crushed, her mainland fully occupied by the Germans. De gaule witnessed from his plane as he flew to England a
Royal Navy ship being dive bombed off the French coast, 3500 British servicemen lost their lives. Yet in all this mess when all seemed lost to so many he made his now famous call for France to fight on with her allies.
I use the story to show 9 plus that I am not afraid of where we stand today, and that I look to history to show me that reason justice and commonsense always win out in the end.
I will continue to make my call, even after the darkest night the sun rises at dawn
I wasn't referring to a specific one of your many metaphors just pointing out that the metaphors you use always portray you as the hero and everyone else as the villain.
I wasn't referring to a specific one of your many metaphors just pointing out that the metaphors you use always portray you as the hero and everyone else as the villain.
I am simply in favour of a free world where the owners of holiday homes in the canaries are left alone to rent them out to tourists. I favour this situation to the Canarian govts crackdown and massive fines, to stamp out what seems to me to be perfectly normal behaviour .i definitely think that holiday home renters should have to pay an annual permit fee to either their local Canarian council or the Canarian govt.
In my opinion to deny this natural and normal situation is absurd and quite ridiculous . For these reasons I argue and debate the issue on here to the best of my ability , with reasoned argument which may involve examples I present and comparisons which reinforce the points I am making.
If that shows what a mad position the govt and tourismo are trying to hold on to, well sorry but that's the reality .
If it has big ears and a long trunk it's an elephant , there is just no disguising it
Fair play to you for sticking to your guns, I'm never going to deny you an opinion.
Did they include anything in the new draft/proposal about maybe adopting the Portuguese model/allowing private rentals?
Nelson, the more you write and the more you tell us of your position on property rentals, the more you convince us that what the government wants is right for both tourism and the islands. Fortunately as a nonresident, non-tax paying property owner who ignores local laws and quotes his own version of Spanish and UK laws when it suits, you are unlikely to get a platform for your battle here. You never answer any of the good arguments put forward by other members but just continue with a blinkered argument that isn't getting you anywhere. I'm all for fighting for the underdog but by your own admission you knew that you were breaking the law but decided to continue and you also decided that you knew best what was good for the island and its tourists. Your system denies tourists the accountability of one company providing quality accommodation , and denies the rest of the tax paying Canarian public your contribution to the tax system from monies you have earned on the island.The fine you are going to pay is a fair representation of the tax you would have paid on your many years of profitable rentals.
non-tax paying property owner who ignores local laws.
Your system denies tourists the accountability of one company providing quality accommodation , and denies the rest of the tax paying Canarian public your contribution to the tax system from monies you have earned on the island.The fine you are going to pay is a fair representation of the tax you would have paid on your many years of profitable rentals.
So whats the difference between what he has done and what the vast majority of Canarian / Spanish landlords do when long letting their properties illegally with no contracts, cash payments, no tax being paid etc?
Yapping on and on about not paying tax... you´re in the wrong country to be trying to pass that off as evil. And we are talking about letting laws - the non payment of tax is a non sequitur in this regard. Besides, when in Rome etc.... At least he is "fitting in with the local culture!"
See this thread for further reading: http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23499-Why-don-t-Canarians-ever-want-to-pay-any-tax
Albatros
21-01-2013, 00:29
So whats the difference between what he has done and what the vast majority of Canarian / Spanish landlords do when long letting their properties illegally with no contracts, cash payments, no tax being paid etc?
Yapping on and on about not paying tax... you´re in the wrong country to be trying to pass that off as evil. And we are talking about letting laws - the non payment of tax is a non sequitur in this regard. Besides, when in Rome etc.... At least he is "fitting in with the local culture!"
See this thread for further reading: http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23499-Why-don-t-Canarians-ever-want-to-pay-any-tax
Two wrongs (or in this case many wrongs) don't make one right, surely.
Should the residents of New York take up murders because , after all, so many others are doing it. :whistle:
Two wrongs (or in this case many wrongs) don't make one right, surely.
Should the residents of New York take up murders because , after all, so many others are doing it. :whistle:
In the case of tax dodging you are talking the vast majority partaking, so there is no parallel with your example.
"What is the difference?" is the question and the answer is - very little. So why aren't two wrongs being dealt with in the same way? And why are people so quick to vilify one whilst turning a blind eye to the other (which is of a far greater magnitude anyways.)
Albatros
21-01-2013, 00:45
In the case of tax dodging you are talking the vast majority partaking, so there is no parallel with your example.
"What is the difference?" is the question and the answer is - very little. So why aren't two wrongs being dealt with in the same way? And why are people so quick to vilify one whilst turning a blind eye to the other (which is of a far greater magnitude anyways.)
I can't really believe that the vast majority don't pay taxes. If that is the case then Tenerife is solely reliant on funding from Madrid and EU. Hardly a formula for a progressive successful economy. Until that situation is reversed there can only be a decline in the public services on the island.
i wish the government would get on with passing a law, whatever they decide, so that everyone knows where they stand and what they have to do to be legal! Unlikely to happen though because the translation will probably be either wrong or interpreted differently by different people depending on what suits them!
The tax point is interesting, I was under the impression that if the earnings were made in Tenerife on a Tenerife asset the tax should be paid in Tenerife and notified to the UK on your tax return and we have done that for many years. I have been told by several people that they offset their tax in Tenerife against their losses in the UK and therefore dont pay tax in either country. In other words they are only accounting for it in the UK.
I have always paid my taxes in Tenerife through my accountant and he then declares this on my behalf to my accountant in England and it is then declared there also - it has to be declared in Tenerife first. I think CIM makes a very good point about the double standards that seem to be in operation but I do wish that some of our ex-pats would not keep assuming that we (who are non resident) are all tax dodgers!!
There is tax avoidance everywhere in every country and this ranges from undeclared letting income and undeclared income from tradespeople who do cash in hand jobs or only declare part of the payment - it is a fact of life and although not right it does happen.
I find it hard to believe that some of the people on here who are vilifying fellow brits as tax avoiders have not at some stage or in some way done the same albeit is smaller or different ways.
i wish the government would get on with passing a law, whatever they decide, so that everyone knows where they stand and what they have to do to be legal! Unlikely to happen though because the translation will probably be either wrong or interpreted differently by different people depending on what suits them!
The tax point is interesting, I was under the impression that if the earnings were made in Tenerife on a Tenerife asset the tax should be paid in Tenerife and notified to the UK on your tax return and we have done that for many years. I have been told by several people that they offset their tax in Tenerife against their losses in the UK and therefore dont pay tax in either country. In other words they are only accounting for it in the UK.
Tax is a side issue to the letting issue. The annual permit system I am proposing would be best in a situation of tax evasion. Direct taxes are best in these cases , the annual permit has to be paid up front at a flat fee,no need to wrangle over weeks let , accounting etc.
As I said just a couple of days ago, we all have to move forward. If private renters have been tax cheats in the past, let that be history, get em paying from now, April 1st 2013 should be the first year of this new system.
What matters is that the canary govt recognises the need to continue to be a part of the private holiday home letting market. The govt needs to keep up with the rest of the world and be a part of this e commerce market. They quite simply as rational people try to ignore this exciting new developing market.
And the revenue from the permit charges, well the islands need that today, keep it within the Canarian system and we can pay for the south hospital this year
I have always paid my taxes in Tenerife through my accountant and he then declares this on my behalf to my accountant in England and it is then declared there also - it has to be declared in Tenerife first. I think CIM makes a very good point about the double standards that seem to be in operation but I do wish that some of our ex-pats would not keep assuming that we (who are non resident) are all tax dodgers!!
There is tax avoidance everywhere in every country and this ranges from undeclared letting income and undeclared income from tradespeople who do cash in hand jobs or only declare part of the payment - it is a fact of life and although not right it does happen.
I find it hard to believe that some of the people on here who are vilifying fellow brits as tax avoiders have not at some stage or in some way done the same albeit is smaller or different ways.
I'm sorry Philip,I know that many nonresident property owners pay their dues here and my comments to Nelson in no way reflected on other non residents.My view point comes as someone who has worked in Spain for almost 30 years and paid tax on my salary, on property transactions and death duty when my husband died.I didn't have a choice and neither do majority of local people.There is a huge amount of tax evasion going on here but there are many people being caught now as they start to spend their black money.I strongly believe that if you don't pay anything into the system you shouldn't criticize it and Nelson hasn't grasp why the enforcement of the law on illegal rentals is important.
Nelson, you appear to be advocating a fixed fee of 1200 euros to include not only the permit, (ie checking apartments are to requirements) but the tax as well? That cannot be fair, some people only rent out part of the year or only manage the odd letting!
You also say that tax cheats of the past should get away with it. What message does that send? No, a fine in the courts to end the matter is by far the fairest.
You also say that tax cheats of the past should get away with it. What message does that send? No, a fine in the courts to end the matter is by far the fairest.
Absolutely agree! And they should start by going back over the last 10 years of long letting where no tax has been paid by the owners. Makes sense to start with the local population of non tax paying landlords as that is where most of the illegal activity has occurred. And it is pretty simple to prove via utility bills and by checking empadronamientos - lots of juicy fines could be handed out to the local population.
I would suggest fines in the region of 18,000€ for a single property and an additional 60,000€ plus where a Spanish landlord has blatantly evaded tax on his portfolio of long term rentals.
Hopefully a new team of inspectors will be put together to tackle these tax dodging Spanish property owners.
Checking by electricity bills isnt as great as it sounds always. We find, because we have a pool with the pump on all year round, our electricity bills really do not alter all that much because in the Summer although we are not there, we have to have the pump working longer to keep the pool up to scratch with the automatic chlorine maker.
You could not ppossibly work out when we or anyone alse is there from that bill, mind you, we could well be an exception.
Checking by electricity bills isnt as great as it sounds always. We find, because we have a pool with the pump on all year round, our electricity bills really do not alter all that much because in the Summer although we are not there, we have to have the pump working longer to keep the pool up to scratch with the automatic chlorine maker.
You could not ppossibly work out when we or anyone alse is there from that bill, mind you, we could well be an exception.
99% of these properties wont have swimming pools.
Electricity and water bills over the past 10 years showing signs of occupancy even though an owner insists its been sat empty for 10 years. A phone line connected to the apartment in the name of someone other than the owner, an empadronamiento showing undeniably that someone is registered as living there even though the landlord continues to assert is 12 residential apartments in Adeje town have never been occupied - easy pickings.
So the question is, why aren't the government all over this with one of their fair and proper crackdowns handing out fines that fit the crime to their population?
Yet they obsess over holiday apartments (the vast majority of which they know are non-Spanish owned) to the point of setting up an entire department to deal with and fine the crap out of.
Double standard? Absolutely....
Why are people on here berating those who have rented out holiday apartments and attempting to make out it is the crime of the century and that fines are entirely appropriate (completely ridiculous) and that the actions of said owners are nothing but evil and greedy? (with a very strong whiff of smirking schadenfreude.)
There is a far bigger crime taking place, with a much larger amount of properties, a far bigger amount of unpaid tax and a culture thats deems it totally appropriate - almost "cheeky" to evade tax for literally decades.
Continue to debate the pros and cons, good and bad of the current situation regarding the law governing apartment rentals on touristic and residential complexes. But can we please stop with the tax angle? Because tax is not the issue and in the context of this island, the general attitude and behavior of the local population and the length of time and scale of tax evasion, the accusations are not only borderline irrelevant, but out of context, coming across as nothing but vitriolic bile.
As I said just a couple of days ago, we all have to move forward. If private renters have been tax cheats in the past, let that be history, get em paying from now, April 1st 2013 should be the first year of this new system.
On your birthday?
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99% of these properties wont have swimming pools.
Electricity and water bills over the past 10 years showing signs of occupancy even though an owner insists its been sat empty for 10 years. A phone line connected to the apartment in the name of someone other than the owner, an empadronamiento showing undeniably that someone is registered as living there even though the landlord continues to assert is 12 residential apartments in Adeje town have never been occupied - easy pickings.
So the question is, why aren't the government all over this with one of their fair and proper crackdowns handing out fines that fit the crime to their population?
Yet they obsess over holiday apartments (the vast majority of which they know are non-Spanish owned) to the point of setting up an entire department to deal with and fine the crap out of.
Double standard? Absolutely....
Why are people on here berating those who have rented out holiday apartments and attempting to make out it is the crime of the century and that fines are entirely appropriate (completely ridiculous) and that the actions of said owners are nothing but evil and greedy? (with a very strong whiff of smirking schadenfreude.)
There is a far bigger crime taking place, with a much larger amount of properties, a far bigger amount of unpaid tax and a culture thats deems it totally appropriate - almost "cheeky" to evade tax for literally decades.
Continue to debate the pros and cons, good and bad of the current situation regarding the law governing apartment rentals on touristic and residential complexes. But can we please stop with the tax angle? Because tax is not the issue and in the context of this island, the general attitude and behavior of the local population and the length of time and scale of tax evasion, the accusations are not only borderline irrelevant, but out of context, coming across as nothing but vitriolic bile.
Got to start somewhere haven't they - tourist sector then residental,
Why are people on here berating those who have rented out holiday apartments and attempting to make out it is the crime of the century and that fines are entirely appropriate (completely ridiculous) and that the actions of said owners are nothing but evil and greedy? (with a very strong whiff of smirking schadenfreude.)
There is a far bigger crime taking place, with a much larger amount of properties, a far bigger amount of unpaid tax and a culture thats deems it totally appropriate - almost "cheeky" to evade tax for literally decades.
and believe it or not there are far bigger crimes than both tax avoidance and illegal letting, the reasons we go on about it is becuase this is "the illegal letting thread" not the "murder and rape thread".
and believe it or not there are far bigger crimes than both tax avoidance and illegal letting, the reasons we go on about it is becuase this is "the illegal letting thread" not the "murder and rape thread".
My point being, nor is it the Tax evasion thread... because if it was then the subject would be landlords who for decades have long let and dont declare.
Nelson, you appear to be advocating a fixed fee of 1200 euros to include not only the permit, (ie checking apartments are to requirements) but the tax as well? That cannot be fair, some people only rent out part of the year or only manage the odd letting!
You also say that tax cheats of the past should get away with it. What message does that send? No, a fine in the courts to end the matter is by far the fairest.
In Portugal the annual fee is 400 euro. The alotca lawyer señor Escobedo , wrote last year proposing 1200 euros, I think that fair given the year round season in the canaries.
People who don't rent year round may find the cost prohibitive, I would welcome 6 month permits but that would complicate matters. Remember also, the govt is proposing to impose a sole agent on touristic complex,s, these owners are going to be forced to rent year round in any case.
As for letting tax cheats off the hook, we have to move forward, we can't live in the past, there has to be a sense of forgive and forget the past and be happy things are better for the future.
In Portugal the annual fee is 400 euro. The alotca lawyer señor Escobedo , wrote last year proposing 1200 euros, I think that fair given the year round season in the canaries.
People who don't rent year round may find the cost prohibitive, I would welcome 6 month permits but that would complicate matters. Remember also, the govt is proposing to impose a sole agent on touristic complex,s, these owners are going to be forced to rent year round in any case.
As for letting tax cheats off the hook, we have to move forward, we can't live in the past, there has to be a sense of forgive and forget the past and be happy things are better for the future.
Does this include your fine by any chance?
Did they include anything in the new draft/proposal about maybe adopting the Portuguese model/allowing private rentals?
Since we are moving forward at your suggestion can we now assume that there will be no further references to Hitler, Charles de Gaul and even more importantly General Franco, the memory of whom remains painful amongst the Spanish people generally, and in particular Canarians, who have particular cause to remember the animal
Out of interest, you say you are campaigning hard on behalf those in your circumstances which is nobel of you, and something which you have the right to do in a free country. It would be helpful though if you would outline your achievements thus far in your campaign and what the next moves are???
bonitatime
21-01-2013, 23:07
I am not sure the whole thing is finally about tax. It is my understanding that they want to get the quañity And standards of tourist letting under control
All this talk about tax evasion is a side issue
If you feel so strongly CIM there is a form you can download on the AEAT website
I am not sure the whole thing is finally about tax. It is my understanding that they want to get the quañity And standards of tourist letting under control
All this talk about tax evasion is a side issue
If you feel so strongly CIM there is a form you can download on the AEAT website
I agree - see my earlier post:
Continue to debate the pros and cons, good and bad of the current situation regarding the law governing apartment rentals on touristic and residential complexes. But can we please stop with the tax angle? Because tax is not the issue
The point I made is if tax was the main issue - then continually harassing one member over it is ridiculous given the context of where we live and what goes on here....
I agree - see my earlier post:
The point I made is if tax was the main issue - then continually harassing one member over it is ridiculous given the context of where we live and what goes on here....
They remind me of the bearded woman stoning volunteers in minty pythons life of Brian . Screaming in a demented way when anyone says Jehovah',
junglejim
22-01-2013, 08:44
But Nelson , by your own admission ,you're not the Messiah ! "You've been a very naughty boy!"
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OOuWWzP7wl0
This never has been just about tax or the illegal renters who have paid tax (and there will he some) would not be fined
bonitatime
22-01-2013, 09:58
I thought most of the fines were for not having a Libro de Reclamaciones
Hacienda hasnt started yet was my understanding. That will be a double whammy for later.
That said I agree everyone should pay tax on rental income. When they stated giving tax breaks for renters I presumed this was to find more rental apartments.
duncan-6
22-01-2013, 10:32
Since we are moving forward at your suggestion can we now assume that there will be no further references to Hitler, Charles de Gaul and even more importantly General Franco, the memory of whom remains painful amongst the Spanish people generally, and in particular Canarians, who have particular cause to remember the animal
Out of interest, you say you are campaigning hard on behalf those in your circumstances which is nobel of you, and something which you have the right to do in a free country. It would be helpful though if you would outline your achievements thus far in your campaign and what the next moves are???
campaigning hard all right,...bent apartment owners, chemists, lifeguards, taxi drivers, restaurants, a real saint is nelson,...Saint Nelson of Barnsley,..what a guy!
They remind me of the bearded woman stoning volunteers in minty pythons life of Brian . Screaming in a demented way when anyone says Jehovah',
Well that's a new one!!!!! I love a bit of Minty Python myself.Spearmint is my favourite!
Altamira
23-01-2013, 13:04
I was recently talking to a German who owns a number of tourist apartments, I mentioned the proposed new tourist laws and he seemed to be completely unaware of its potentially horrendous impact. He was also under the impression that the present assault on private tourist rentals only affected those who advertised on the internet. Does anyone know of cases where the tourist inspectors have actually charged owners who were not advertising?
I was recently talking to a German who owns a number of tourist apartments, I mentioned the proposed new tourist laws and he seemed to be completely unaware of its potentially horrendous impact. He was also under the impression that the present assault on private tourist rentals only affected those who advertised on the internet. Does anyone know of cases where the tourist inspectors have actually charged owners who were not advertising?
As far as I know the whole fining is based on owners direct advertisers.
The massive number of these ads enraged the hotels, it was really in their face when they were struggling in2007.
From my experience on our complex they for now have only gone after the ads with clear owner identity and. Clear I'd of apartment . They must have a large data base of other advertisers who are now off line , that they did not prosecute to start with.
Does anyone know of cases where the tourist inspectors have actually charged owners who were not advertising? yes. I know several cases.
Peterrayner
24-01-2013, 08:08
mostly has a result of denuncias ???
mostly has a result of denuncias ???
I presume you mean mainly as a result of ..... - anyhoo
I see from JA's site this morning that the lawyers fighting the cases are now advising anyone fined to either pay or put the necessary funds in a Spanish bank account registered with a court so as to avoid 20% interest whether or not the appeal(s) are won.
erm
ouch??!!
20% interest is a tad expensive - interestingly though it appears to equate to the 3k Tourismo took off the fines in the first place. Hope you are standing by Nellie ?? xx
Over a barrel,
One thing i was told when i first arrived in Spain (mainland) by a wise old Englishman "you can do whatever you like in Spain but do it wrong and you will be caught"
The Spanish aren't as stupid as the Brits think was something else he mentioned.
So that's €15000 to be lodged as guarantee for those that appealed and had their fined reduced?
One forum member received a fined of €66,000 if i remember correctly do you have to lodge that amount in the bank?
I'm thinking there's possibly no way out of this all these fines will be paid during this year, once the money is there they'll have the lot.
So what hope has somebody that has received a fine got in their favor?
What hope is there of turning this around?
duncan-6
24-01-2013, 15:21
Over a barrel,
One thing i was told when i first arrived in Spain (mainland) by a wise old Englishman "you can do whatever you like in Spain but do it wrong and you will be caught"
The Spanish aren't as stupid as the Brits think was something else he mentioned.
So that's €15000 to be lodged as guarantee for those that appealed and had their fined reduced?
One forum member received a fined of €66,000 if i remember correctly do you have to lodge that amount in the bank?
I'm thinking there's possibly no way out of this all these fines will be paid during this year, once the money is there they'll have the lot.
So what hope has somebody that has received a fine got in their favor?
What hope is there of turning this around?
Nellie is in Brussels as we speak, with a top level team of legal experts recruited from the big ben pub in L/C.
Must be gutting to have to lodge a total of €30,000 for 2 apartments in the bank and watch it get swipped away.
I wonder if these quantities will be reduced to say a couple of thousand euros at the end of the court cases?
I can't believe that you guys seriously get pleasure from a fellow forum member being fined the best part of 40 grand.
What is wrong with you?.....
It's not that there is much pleasure to be had, but the reality is that, in the case of Nellie, he not only knew his first buy was against the law, he then went on to get another - presumably because the first was doing so well.
As in previous most from senor Plus, "do your own thing in Spain by all means, but do it wrong and be prepared for the consequences". Buying one place as a buy to let was already against the law, but, hey, it's just the one. Turn it into a business and the cosequences come along to bite you on the bum - with what seems to be quite sharp teeth.
Nellie was asked a few posts back exactly what he was doing to fight the fines and whether he was having any success and if so what - as in useful tips for the others. Given what I have read at JA's site, it seems the answer could be "relatively little and with even less success" - but that would be putting words in his mouth ................
To the best of my knowledge from past experience,
I received a fine from the tourist board a few years ago and yes there is an appeal process. Firstly, as of what is happening now, you make the appeal and a reduced fine is sent to you. This can continue for several exchanges of paperwork and each time the fine is reduced by a small amount. Then all goes quiet for a few months and you think maybe it is over. Next you receive a demand for payment with an expiry date, after this expiry date interest is added at a high rate. The fine has to be paid or an embargo will go against your bank account/property. After payment you can appeal to the court – my fine was paid over 4 years ago and a court date was set for the appeal, then cancelled by the court as they had a more serious offence to deal with. I am still waiting to see if I will get any of my €12’600.00 back!
For those of who think these fines will just be quashed or you will get to the courts before payment is demanded – think again.
You may remember I posted the above in February 2012, post *3496. looks like they still operate the same system!
Peterrayner
24-01-2013, 16:54
I presume you mean mainly as a result of ..... - anyhoo
I meant denuncias from perhaps unhappy neighbours or perhaps even communidads.
Personally I'm not happy to see anyone have to pay their fine, I would have been happy if everyone just accepted the laws and stopped doing illegal letting.
I think a lot of people would have laughed at me or stuck two fingers up if the fines hasn't materialized so in that respect it's good to know I wasn't talking crap all these years.
Personally I'm not happy to see anyone have to pay their fine, I would have been happy if everyone just accepted the laws and stopped doing illegal letting.
I think a lot of people would have laughed at me or stuck two fingers up if the fines hasn't materialized so in that respect it's good to know I wasn't talking crap all these years.
John, for the record I've never once thought you were talking crap. In fact, quite the reverse.
I respect and rely on the information that you kindly add to this thread because you are actually there and watching it unfold.
I know you like a laugh at Nelson's expense but we all know it's a bit of fun.
We also need the information that comes from the horses mouth from people who have been fined. It helps us to know what's happening from the other perspective. It's kind of him to give us that side of it.
I object to anyone who isn't grown up enough to realise that this situation has two sides.
This morning I look at this thread and in a nutshell see; "the fines are going up Nelson..haha.."
If anyones pointing two fingers then that is it.
:respect:
Yeah that's fair comment, if we're all honest we don't wish any malice on anyone on here I don't think . It's just differing opinions and points of view.
Far more important things in life than this - not many but.... Lol
slodgedad
24-01-2013, 23:28
It amazes me why this thread is more concerned about the 'wrongs' of the law rather than giving constructive advice..
Altamira
25-01-2013, 12:00
It amazes me why this thread is more concerned about the 'wrongs' of the law rather than giving constructive advice..
If you are talking about the the private rentals of tourist apartments, it is all very historical. They should have got them selves organized prior to the 1995 tourist law and sought some change to it so that they could continue to operate legally. They have continued to operate as though it was still ok to do so, now they are approaching judgement day with substantial fines & interest.
We must now look to the future and seek some change to the 1995 law and this is what the Canary Government is trying to do. Unfortunately the proposed changes may actually make the situation much worse for all independent owners of tourist apartments. The future is worryingly unclear, it is therefore difficult to give constructive advice.
i don't think their aim is to make anything better for independant owners, quite the opposite in fact,
seanocelt
25-01-2013, 13:08
If you are talking about the the private rentals of tourist apartments, it is all very historical. They should have got them selves organized prior to the 1995 tourist law and sought some change to it so that they could continue to operate legally. They have continued to operate as though it was still ok to do so, now they are approaching judgement day with substantial fines & interest.
We must now look to the future and seek some change to the 1995 law and this is what the Canary Government is trying to do. Unfortunately the proposed changes may actually make the situation much worse for all independent owners of tourist apartments. The future is worryingly unclear, it is therefore difficult to give constructive advice.
Thats you telt Slodgey!
I'd spoken to someone today that works for the Cabildo, They "guessed" that the Law once passed would more than likely be
If you own a property on a tourist complex you may only rent via the Sole Agent to tourists and they would not allow long lets, however you "The owner" may live in it.
or they would curb people from purchasing on touristic complexes in the future if their intention was not to rent to tourists via a Sole Agent.
Sounds like a lot more control
junglejim
25-01-2013, 14:16
It's just a pity they can't control some of the sole agents who are abusing the system as well and some of the Estate Agents who sold some pups to unsuspecting people , but then that's probably why the Konrad Dynasty is keeping in the Ashotel loop!
Altamira
25-01-2013, 14:52
I'd spoken to someone today that works for the Cabildo, They "guessed" that the Law once passed would more than likely be
If you own a property on a tourist complex you may only rent via the Sole Agent to tourists and they would not allow long lets, however you "The owner" may live in it.
or they would curb people from purchasing on touristic complexes in the future if their intention was not to rent to tourists via a Sole Agent.
Sounds like a lot more control
It is very generous of the Cabildo to consider allowing the poor owner to live in their own tourist apartment.
If the Cabildo is going to stipulate that the future sale of such apartments are restricted for only the purpose of sole agent rentals, then the value of these properties would plummet, with little or no re-sale value. I think this would be fantastic news for the monopoly crazed sole agents, who would be able to take over (property grab) the apartments via the back door.
It is very generous of the Cabildo to consider allowing the poor owner to live in their own tourist apartment.
If the Cabildo is going to stipulate that the future sale of such apartments are restricted for only the purpose of sole agent rentals, then the value of these properties would plummet, with little or no re-sale value. I think this would be fantastic news for the monopoly crazed sole agents, who would be able to take over (property grab) the apartments via the back door.
Personally I think the opposite. If you want to buy an apartment to rent to tourists (legally) there will be only selected complexes available. Surely the property value will increase.
Remember this is only a "guess"
In that scenario on a touristic complex, You buy, live in it, use it as a holiday home or you are able to rent to tourists via a sole agent. It makes sense, so anybody other than the owner or a holidays maker via a sole agent would be dragged out on the street and stoned just like the good old days.
other scenario on a residential complex you can also live in your own apartment or rent to residents via your own control.
Just like it should of been all along.
He also mentioned that he guessed that making people sell up on a touristic complex who didn't want to rent via a sole agent and move to a residential one would not be passed in a court.
Altamira
25-01-2013, 15:57
Personally I think the opposite. If you want to buy an apartment to rent to tourists (legally) there will be only selected complexes available. Surely the property value will increase.
There are some front line tourist apartments that have a very high resale value this is based on
1. Its use as a private residence, if there was a restriction on this resale use, it would then badly affect the demand for such properties and this would greatly reduce the value.
2. Now until recently many of these apartments were purchased to privately rent out and make a reasonable return on the investment, this also kept the value of these properties at a high level. Unfortunately as a result of the crackdown on these rentals many of these owners will no longer get a reasonable return and neither will any future buyer. Some of these owners are trying to sell up, but are finding it a bit difficult, as many potential buyers are now wary of buying an apartment within a tourist complex.
The bottom line is many more apartments up for sale, demand & values dropping.
junglejim
25-01-2013, 18:18
Interesting "Guesses"Plus9 ,did he guess anything about defining family and friends use or this week´s lottery numbers?
Personally I think if the law was changed it would make catching "illegal renters" a lot easier, you wouldn't need to prove someone was renting it, you'd just need to prove they aren't renting it via the sole agent - much easier for the sole agent!
I can't see anyone been kicked out of their home but certainly owners who chose to let long term would get a tap on the shoulder to come on board and that makes sense if the tourist board are trying to "re-touristify" complexes.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Interesting "Guesses"Plus9 ,did he guess anything about defining family and friends use or this week´s lottery numbers?
and the whole family and friends imaginary loophole would be closed forever with that bit of law being approved.
2012:
Cabildo inspector to owner letting to family and friends: " are you letting your apartment?"
Owner: "only to family and friends, no money changes hands."
Inspector: "are you sure?"
Owner: "honest guv".
Inspector: "ok then not much I can do I guess"
2013 (if passed)
Inspector: "hello Mr Owner, are you renting via the sole agent?"
Owner: "I only rent to family and friends"
Inspector: "so thats a no?"
Owner: "well, yes I guess it is"
Inspector: "yes, it is, you're not on their list of aparmtents so 18,000 fine for you".
The end.
junglejim
25-01-2013, 18:49
Sorry Loaded , we now need to legally define what letting,renting and allowing use is as well then !
Here we go again - back on the roundabout !
So when the King of Spain or his family let people use their property here , or the people who own fantastic villas allow politicians here to use them , what category does that come under ?
Altamira
25-01-2013, 19:53
I can't see anyone been kicked out of their home but certainly owners who chose to let long term would get a tap on the shoulder to come on board and that makes sense if the tourist board are trying to "re-touristify" complexes.
and the whole family and friends imaginary loophole would be closed forever with that bit of law being approved.
2012:
Cabildo inspector to owner letting to family and friends: " are you letting your apartment?"
Owner: "only to family and friends, no money changes hands."
Inspector: "are you sure?"
Owner: "honest guv".
Inspector: "ok then not much I can do I guess"
2013 (if passed)
Inspector: "hello Mr Owner, are you renting via the sole agent?"
Owner: "I only rent to family and friends"
Inspector: "so thats a no?"
Owner: "well, yes I guess it is"
Inspector: "yes, it is, you're not on their list of aparmtents so 18,000 fine for you".
The end.[/QUOTE]
Hello Loaded
You appear to have loaded the comparison between 2012 & 2013 in your favour, why on earth would an owner (2013) say "I only rent to family and friends" surely they would say we use it for ourselves and sometimes have non paying guests. They would have to be unbalanced to admit to renting to family & friends, surely to rent would be illegal.
Ok change "rent to " or "let" to "allow the use of our apartment "
junglejim
25-01-2013, 20:29
So that would take another 6 months in the Cabildo to agree the wording !
Just look at the number of Spanish families alone ,here, that have holiday homes that they "allow the use of " to genuine family and friends !
My point is that if this ammendment is passed no one who is renting illegally but hiding behind the friends and family argument will be able to get away with it.
It changes the burden of proof from the inspectors side to the owners side
So that would take another 6 months in the Cabildo to agree the wording !
Just look at the number of Spanish families alone ,here, that have holiday homes that they "allow the use of " to genuine family and friends !
Yes junglejim it is outweighed by the amount of English who have 60 sisters and 150 cousins
junglejim
25-01-2013, 20:37
When they introduced the law in the first place ,they failed to cover this "loophole"- they have been challenged on it and have done nothing in 15 years-I doubt they will do anything now -prove it?- But that´s the way it is just now , you are fined then you have to prove your innocence to get your money back ?
I actually have around 200 relatives , some of whom I´ve never met !
An owner on paloma beach has found out that after owning on here for 20 years they had a long lost uncle who had been staying here for 20 ears also and now they allow them to use their apartment for 8 weeks every year in between other family members who come over.
Who knew that these relatives could have saved thousands if only they'd known their family had an apartment all three years an allowed all their family to use it free a lot charge at the expense of their relatives?
When they introduced the law in the first place ,they failed to cover this "loophole"- they have been challenged on it and have done nothing in 15 years-I doubt they will do anything now -prove it?- But that´s the way it is just now , you are fined then you have to prove your innocence to get your money back ?
That's my point though, it won't need to be proved if this ammendment is passed - on a Tourist complex if you aren't renting via the sole agent you would get fined - no need to prove that any illegal renting is taking place , only that legal renting is not taking place - simples
junglejim
25-01-2013, 20:47
Yes, I understand your point,other peoples´ opinion is that a sole agent isn´t needed to be legal - that´s where most of the hubris here is being generated .
The incompetency of the politicians is being manifested by the lenght of time it is taking them to come up with a workable solution to dig them out of the hole they put themselves in!
I don't think they're in a hole or need to find a solution, things are by the looks of things going how they wanted.
I don't think they're in a hole or need to find a solution, things are by the looks of things going how they wanted.
If 9 plus Cambodia contact is guessing right, he is only saying that the new law will mean that in a touristic you will have the option to rent through the sole agent , or live in the apartment residentially. So residents in the dormant touristics need not fear eviction and compulsory tourist renting under the new law after all.
The only odd and illogical change, according to 9 plus, is that touristic apartment owners will not be allowed to long let , I presume residential long let, as we all can now.
If that is what the new law brings that does not stop family and friends at all. The owner on the touristic who lives in the apartment surely can let family and friends stay for free?
Even loadeds inspector is not asking the guests , are you the actual owner? Surely the law will not make it illegal for none owners to stay in an apartment ?
The family and friends dodge would still work if the guests played the game and did not admit they were paying guests.
delderek
25-01-2013, 21:31
Blimey, a post from you not mentioning the Portuguese solution of 1200 euros a year licence fee. Anyway if you have got away with it for 15 years, doesn't your fine work out about the same?. So where's the problem.
I'm pretty sure the new law if passes would mean you can live in your apartment or give it to the sole agent to let - nothing else.
I'm pretty sure the new law if passes would mean you can live in your apartment or give it to the sole agent to let - nothing else.
Exactly what the guessed outcome was, so as you said before Loaded if you are not the owner nor are you going through the sole agent, you would be breaking the Law, so no friend & family or i'm long letting could be used on a touristic complex.
He didn't actually mention anything about F&F though.
Do you actually believe that a property owner will be unable to rent out his property to a " long term" tenant if he should decide not to go with a " sole agent" ?
Or that the complexes which were "dormant" touristic simply change status and all the owners sign up to an agent that appears out of nowhere ?
Where are these new agents going to get all these tourists from ?
The scary thing is that there are people who believe that any such scheme might work.
An even scarier thought is that they might be the decision makers in turismo.
Exactly what the guessed outcome was, so as you said before Loaded if you are not the owner nor are you going through the sole agent, you would be breaking the Law, so no friend & family or i'm long letting could be used on a touristic complex.
He didn't actually mention anything about F&F though.
Sorry for me being a bit thick, but surely the man who owns the apartment on the tourist complex and lives in it can chose to let other people stay in it without charge?
That is the case clearly today, and from what your contact has told you that would remain the same under the new law?
The govt , according to your contact, are not saying that only the resident owner can stay in the apartment.
It's like people say on here, f and f is not actually mentioned in the law now anyway. Clearly having laws that restrict the use of apartments to not allow tourist letting are difficult to enforce, there is the need to prove money has changed hands,. You can't really say to the residential owner, only you and you alone can stay in the place.
If that was the case would it just be overnight other occupants that were illegal , or at all times of day? Would other occupants be allowed up to 9pm? Could they remain overnight if the owner returned?
I really don't think this contacts guess here changes the f and f scenario
Interesting calculation:
It has been suggested that the owners who have been fined pay now or deposit the amount into an account and then wait for the appeal, if they win the appeal they will get the monies back without any interest added.
It has been stated that approximately 7000 fines have been issued.
As there are about 240 working days in each year and maybe one appeal could be at court for each of these days it would take 29 years to get through all of them!
Doubt if many owners will still be here - lol.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Sorry for me being a bit thick, but surely the man who owns the apartment on the tourist complex and lives in it can chose to let other people stay in it without charge?
That is the case clearly today, and from what your contact has told you that would remain the same under the new law?
The govt , according to your contact, are not saying that only the resident owner can stay in the apartment.
It's like people say on here, f and f is not actually mentioned in the law now anyway. Clearly having laws that restrict the use of apartments to not allow tourist letting are difficult to enforce, there is the need to prove money has changed hands,. You can't really say to the residential owner, only you and you alone can stay in the place.
If that was the case would it just be overnight other occupants that were illegal , or at all times of day? Would other occupants be allowed up to 9pm? Could they remain overnight if the owner returned?
I really don't think this contacts guess here changes the f and f scenario
If the owner lives in it how would other people being staying?
Interesting calculation:
It has been suggested that the owners who have been fined pay now or deposit the amount into an account and then wait for the appeal, if they win the appeal they will get the monies back without any interest added.
It has been stated that approximately 7000 fines have been issued.
As there are about 240 working days in each year and maybe one appeal could be at court for each of these days it would take 29 years to get through all of them!
Doubt if many owners will still be here - lol.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
If the owner lives in it how would other people being staying?
That's the point. He is not there staying at that time . Nothing in the new law prohibits anyone else staying in it without paying if the owner lets them.
Or is 9 plus correct and the new law though allowing an owner to remain resident in a touristic complex will mean only he can stay there .
Are you saying that only full time resident s are going to be allowed ? No swallows or just holiday stay owners?
This thread could be made into a blockbuster epic film/book, Plots,sub plots, Hero's,Villains,Corruption,Brown envelopes,agents,Crazy Politicians,Friends & Family,etc
I first came for a holiday to the wonderful isle of Tenerife in 1984 some 29 years ago and over that period of time must have visited nearly 100 times! It doesn't take long to find out where you prefer to stay and seperate the wheat from the chaff! I know there are some decent legal lets but i find the apartments that suit me and my family are now illegal, nice quiet complex...check...all mod cons...check...well run and maintained...check...near to beach/bars/restaurants...check
After reading and digesting this thread, the only ones who seem to agree with this crazy unworkable law are from those that seem to have a vested interest and will benefit financially from it! There are far more poor quality legal lets than illegal ones, Im all for some rules and regulations on lettings but as it is there are far too many poor/very poor legal lets that either need demolishing or bringing up to standard before any change of law is implemented! Before any of you disagree go and inspect the squalid legal lets up Cardiac hill at Laguna park or Barranco bungalows opposite Hotel Columbus in PDLA that can still be legally advertised for holidays,I wouldn't stay there rent free...Would you? I also don't know who will appoint these "Sole Agents" will they live on the complex? What benefit would they be whilst we are on holiday? This 1995 law never worked and everyone turned a blind eye to it and most tourists still to this day don't even know it existed, still far too much guesswork on this thread! Is anything ever straight forward in Tenerife and all the other laws adhered to...err NO ...Why??? Cos "Brown Envelopes" rule!!! :tiphat:
To be continued....
Apology accepted :wink2: :raspberry:
Apology accepted? :wink2: :raspberry:
Yes i accept your apology.
Yes i accept your apology.
The truth hurts! eh :thanx:
The truth hurts! eh :thanx:
you'll get over it
you'll get over it
Im not worried for myself, Im a mere holidaymaker,i feel sorry for the bars/restaurants/minimarkets that will be affected! I wish we had a tumbleweed smiley!
The Island is dying on its feet,people are going home in their droves,Businesses are closing weekly, So the lunatics in charge come up with a way to offer less quality accomodation! As the old saying goes "Only in Tenerife" You couldn't make it up!
bonitatime
26-01-2013, 07:22
Is that what you see Al Jay
I am astounded that you want to blame the results of a world recession on Tenerife holiday letting laws
junglejim
26-01-2013, 07:38
Is that what you see Al Jay
I am astounded that you want to blame the results of a world recession on Tenerife holiday letting laws
Don´t think he is ,but if your house is on fire , you don´t fling petrol on it surely ?( Unless you want the insurance money!)
Altamira
26-01-2013, 12:03
I think I am beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel.
Residential use of a tourist apartment. It now seems that many believe that the owners will probably be allowed to use their own apartments for residential use and hopefully be allowed to have non paying guests. However it is unlikely that they will be permitted to operate long term rentals. The legal use may ultimately be subject to inspections to ensure compliance so that no illegal rental is taking place and perhaps the owner may need to prove their innocence.
Tourist use of tourist apartments I think the independent owner renters should get themselves organized and campaign for a change in the law, to allow some controlled private rentals. They should be free to use the sole agent or do it privately themselves, otherwise the sole agent monopoly may eventually abuse the monopoly and pay a pittance to the tourist apartment owner.
There isn't a good argument for not having a sole agent doing the rentals on site however there is good reason to make sure these agents work the system fairly and pay the correct percentage of the rentals to the owner.Unfortunately Nicolas Konrad and his cronies will fight to make sure that this doesn't happen and they have far too much power.Your fight should be with them, not the good sole agents who are running excellent tourist complexes.
There will never be a change in the law to allow tourist rentals on residential complexes .
There isn't a good argument for not having a sole agent doing the rentals on site however there is good reason to make sure these agents work the system fairly and pay the correct percentage of the rentals to the owner.Unfortunately Nicolas Konrad and his cronies will fight to make sure that this doesn't happen and they have far too much power.Your fight should be with them, not the good sole agents who are running excellent tourist complexes.
There will never be a change in the law to allow tourist rentals on residential complexes .
Do you think that they have enough power to do this Fonica?
And if yes, wouldn't it be a waste of time trying to fight it?
Altamira
26-01-2013, 13:18
There isn't a good argument for not having a sole agent doing the rentals on site however there is good reason to make sure these agents work the system fairly and pay the correct percentage of the rentals to the owner.Unfortunately Nicolas Konrad and his cronies will fight to make sure that this doesn't happen and they have far too much power.Your fight should be with them, not the good sole agents who are running excellent tourist complexes.
There will never be a change in the law to allow tourist rentals on residential complexes .
Tourist apartments Firstly I was referring to residential use of tourist apartments and not residential apartments. I am pleased to hear that there may be some good sole agents and I am sure that if they are doing a good job, they should then be able to sell their services to individual tourist apartment owners. My comments do not refer to any particular sole agents, however you have perhaps picked a good example. This is why owners should have the freedom of choice, I would add that some of the well connected sole agents may have a long term strategy of eventually easing out some or all of the independent sole agents.
Tourist apartments Firstly I was referring to residential use of tourist apartments and not residential apartments. I am pleased to hear that there may be some good sole agents and I am sure that if they are doing a good job, they should then be able to sell their services to individual tourist apartment owners. My comments do not refer to any particular sole agents, however you have perhaps picked a good example. This is why owners should have the freedom of choice, I would add that some of the well connected sole agents may have a long term strategy of eventually easing out some or all of the independent sole agents.
when the debate comes down to sole agents , well thats when it all becomes alice in wonderland. Whatever the situation was in 1995, and maybe just maybe , there was some concern that allowing individual private renting would somehow cause chaos in the self catering holiday industry, well today things have changed.
Thousands of apartments have been purchased in the canaries by people who use them as holiday homes, living the dream in the sun. These same people have been renting them out for other peolple to use for their holidays, this renting pays to the mortages and other costs. There has been a growth in holiday home purchases and holiday home ownership as peoples incomes have risen. Whats more with the growth of internet e commerce , these holiday homes are advertised and can be booked online direct to the private owner.
The above activity happens all around the world including the uk, its absolutley normal and everyday and completley uncontroversial.
The sole agents on here can continue to back the odd and unnecesary sole agent system in the canaries, but please please dont try to make logical justifications for why this system should actually exist as if it exists for any sound reasonable factors.
But it is the system nelson and it doesn't look as though it will change
Talk to the sole agent to see if you can pay a maintenance cost to them so you are covered legally, then report your guests to them so the police know who is there.
Of course in your case you don't yet have a sole agent because your complex is residential yeah?
Then you'd be covered, the sole agent would be in place for inspections, the customers would have a proper one stop office for their inquires, and you could rent it out yourself etc etc etc
But it is the system nelson and it doesn't look as though it will change
Talk to the sole agent to see if you can pay a maintenance cost to them so you are covered legally, then report your guests to them so the police know who is there.
Of course in your case you don't yet have a sole agent because your complex is residential yeah?
Then you'd be covered, the sole agent would be in place for inspections, the customers would have a proper one stop office for their inquires, and you could rent it out yourself etc etc etc
That's the correct position 9 plus, simply state that at the moment sole agency is the law, I can live with that , as long as there is no Alice in wonderland attempt to justify sole agency.
As I posted the other week, we still have the same sole agent as when we bought 10 years ago, he still has the licence, we are not dormant.
Given his track record I would not be keen to be involved with him, what we need is as u say, a reasonable sole agent in the interim until private individual renting becomes the norm, as it is worldwide .
Whatever the situation was in 1995, .
As mentioned before. Pre 1995 you could register a minimum of 2 apartments each. I could have 3, you could have 2, 9 Plus could have 4 etc etc etc.. But when there was a problem, with say an apartment I had registered, and I was not available the other registered "agents" would not assist thus leaving the client without assistance. Each agent was asked to sign an agreement to help others if not available - however none of them would. Therefore a sole agent was agreed for each touristic complex who would be responsible for the guests and to answer to the authorities should there be a problem. The sole agent system could have been avoided but pre 1995 "agents" could not reach an agreement.
So, at the moment, you're stuck with us. If the law was to be changed (and I doubt it in the near future) we would welcome some fair competition, however with extra overheads required, offices etc.. I don't think there will be many takers!
get a new one appointed then
welshman
26-01-2013, 16:57
I'm pretty sure the new law if passes would mean you can live in your apartment or give it to the sole agent to let - nothing else.
I think you have hit the nail on the head GIVE IT TO THE SOLE AGENT TO RENT
I do not know any other business model like this. I wish some one would invest over 100k a time in my business without having contol of their asset or return.
MUST BE BARKING Leave your money in the Bank
I think you have hit the nail on the head GIVE IT TO THE SOLE AGENT TO RENT
I do not know any other business model like this. I wish some one would invest over 100k a time in my business without having contol of their asset or return.
MUST BE BARKING Leave your money in the Bank
You aren't familiar with hedge funds then?
bonitatime
26-01-2013, 18:03
You aren't familiar with hedge funds then?
Or even to some degree unit trusts.
Although sometimes this thread resembles a train crash there are voices like Loaded and Oasis who are reasonable.
The people who have been fined I am partly sorry but you have broken the law for years and years. You have ignored the Canarian governments wishes which have been upheld in the European courts. If foreigners did this in the UK you would be outraged. The way forward seems to be find the best person/ company you can and move forward as you have no voting rights and therefore very little ability to make things change.
As mentioned before. Pre 1995 you could register a minimum of 2 apartments each. I could have 3, you could have 2, 9 Plus could have 4 etc etc etc.. But when there was a problem, with say an apartment I had registered, and I was not available the other registered "agents" would not assist thus leaving the client without assistance. Each agent was asked to sign an agreement to help others if not available - however none of them would. Therefore a sole agent was agreed for each touristic complex who would be responsible for the guests and to answer to the authorities should there be a problem. The sole agent system could have been avoided but pre 1995 "agents" could not reach an agreement.
So, at the moment, you're stuck with us. If the law was to be changed (and I doubt it in the near future) we would welcome some fair competition, however with extra overheads required, offices etc.. I don't think there will be many takers!
Thanks for the info, interesting that. As you know I advocate legal individual renting without agents at all. It's amazing to me that the sole agents came about in 1995 because multi agents would not assist others guests when not there.
In my 10 years of renting 2 apartments in Los cristo I have never been there at all ever to meet and greet guests ,and sort out their problems. I have been present sometimes when we are holidaying in an apartment , but for 99 per cent of the time I am 2000 miles away in Yorkshire .
I must say that this is what happens with self catering accodation world wide, we have rented places in the uk and enjoyed our stays, no agents around or needed.
Thanks for the info, interesting that. As you know I advocate legal individual renting without agents at all. It's amazing to me that the sole agents came about in 1995 because multi agents would not assist others guests when not there.
In my 10 years of renting 2 apartments in Los cristo I have never been there at all ever to meet and greet guests ,and sort out their problems. I have been present sometimes when we are holidaying in an apartment , but for 99 per cent of the time I am 2000 miles away in Yorkshire .
I must say that this is what happens with self catering accodation world wide, we have rented places in the uk and enjoyed our stays, no agents around or needed.
And who registered their passport details with the national police? No one I guess.
And who registered their passport details with the national police? No one I guess.
Oddly enough for the first 3 years the cleaning company left a form for that for the guests to fill in. They were a British firm. We changed from them due to poor cleaning.
We could sort that today by e mail, we could take the guest s passport numbers up here and e mail the Spanish police .
There is always a solution to any problem
But the Government don't trust individuals because they end up doing whatever they want just like everyone on your complex nelson who decided they would do it their own way.
Tourist complex, one responsible, is the perfect solution, not 900,000 different people.
welshman
26-01-2013, 23:35
But the Government don't trust individuals because they end up doing whatever they want just like everyone on your complex nelson who decided they would do it their own way.
Tourist complex, one responsible, is the perfect solution, not 900,000 different people.
Your never going to have a solution to this, but with the present laws going through who in their right mind will invest in property in Tenerife as an investment. The property prices are going to dive 2k 0r 3k return on ivestment of 40k 50k is not bad but waite till property price dive and then by these agents should give good return on your money. These are Brits stuffing Brits lovely people like timeshare. Buyer be ware
I've heard all the OMG wow poow stuff before
We still keep ticking over
I've heard all the OMG wow poow stuff before
We still keep ticking over
Yes you're correct, things will keep ticking over. And that's all it's ever going to be for the foreseeable future.
Get used to the fact that tenerife is no longer a fashionable place to holiday, and therefore needs ALL the help it can get to ensure that people keep returning.
When are all these five star hotels going to be built so that the " well off " can come and spend here ? (Ok four and a half stars now).
Is turismo banking on the cruise liners holding up the economy here ?
When is the development due that Arona was proposing near the motorway ?
The government here haven't a clue on how to run their economy, and at the moment it seems like the best they can do is to tinker with their letting laws, god help anyone whose lively hood is dependant on it. (The economy that is, the sole agents will probably do ok thanks very much!)
Yes you're correct, things will keep ticking over. And that's all it's ever going to be for the foreseeable future.
Get used to the fact that tenerife is no longer a fashionable place to holiday, and therefore needs ALL the help it can get to ensure that people keep returning.
When are all these five star hotels going to be built so that the " well off " can come and spend here ? (Ok four and a half stars now).
Is turismo banking on the cruise liners holding up the economy here ?
When is the development due that Arona was proposing near the motorway ?
The government here haven't a clue on how to run their economy, and at the moment it seems like the best they can do is to tinker with their letting laws, god help anyone whose lively hood is dependant on it. (The economy that is, the sole agents will probably do ok thanks very much!)
Blimey Tonym
junglejim
27-01-2013, 09:00
And who registered their passport details with the national police? No one I guess.
Do you think the police here are interested in passport details - they already have that info via Airports & Carriers - they barely even look at your passport coming in or going out .
The only people that have an interest seem to be Turismo for statistical purposes -nobody takes details of owners coming and going from what I have seen ?
Do you think the police here are interested in passport details - they already have that info via Airports & Carriers - they barely even look at your passport coming in or going out .
The only people that have an interest seem to be Turismo for statistical purposes -nobody takes details of owners coming and going from what I have seen ?
The Police have the details of every legal tourist staying in legal accommodation and when they rent a car.
The Canarian economy would collapse if all the private renting had actually stopped today, as per the law.last summer was poor around illegal complexs, pulled Internet ads meant fewer summer punters.
Get ready for summer 2014, Internet ads are long dead, winter repeat bookings hold up but spring summer the canaries needs those Internet ads.
Also stop the Alice in wonderland notion that individual private renting does not work. It's normal and incontrovertible world wide,it's sole agency that is the bizarre complication.
Yes it's canary law, but there is no need or sense in it
Sorry senior moment, get ready for summer 2013
I'm here waiting what will happen ?
junglejim
27-01-2013, 11:29
The Police have the details of every legal tourist staying in legal accommodation and when they rent a car.
No they don't - I can name 20 or more people , who are owners but here as tourists , no residentia , who are staying here and not registered via the reception.
Are you saying its not a legal requirement for a sole agent/hotel reception, or any other legal acommadation to inform the Police on their arrival and the same for Rent a car companies to do the same?
I believe it is a legal requirement but unless you're on a "most wanted" list what purpose does it serve?
If you're a criminal you will commit crimes. Your details mean nothing.
Altamira
27-01-2013, 12:06
Your never going to have a solution to this, but with the present laws going through who in their right mind will invest in property in Tenerife as an investment. The property prices are going to dive 2k 0r 3k return on ivestment of 40k 50k is not bad but waite till property price dive and then by these agents should give good return on your money. These are Brits stuffing Brits lovely people like timeshare. Buyer be ware
Hello Welshman
Tourist Apartment ValueI would like to add that some one bed apartments at Altamira sell for around 300,000 euros, with a previous potential income of around 20,000 euros per year. The rental income is a vitally important factor in maintaining a high resale value whether the apartment is rented or not.
Sole AgentThe Altamira sole agent (not British) appears to be offering around 5,000 euros per year, this equates to a loss of around 75% on rental income.
Drop in ValuesIf the private rentals are not going to be allowed to continue, it will therefore have a devastating affect on resale values of such properties. It could ultimately mean that an apartment that was worth 300,000 would now be badly affected by the loss of its 75% potential income, this could easily equate to a drop of 75% of its resale value, it could eventually be worth only 75,000 euros, this is a loss of 225,000 euros.
It is therefore in the best interests of all tourist apartment owners to support the case for private rentals.
So the police have the names etc of all tourists, ...................... Why ?
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Hello Welshman
Tourist Apartment ValueI would like to add that some one bed apartments at Altamira sell for around 300,000 euros, with a previous potential income of around 20,000 euros per year. The rental income is a vitally important factor in maintaining a high resale value whether the apartment is rented or not.
Sole AgentThe Altamira sole agent (not British) appears to be offering around 5,000 euros per year, this equates to a loss of around 75% on rental income.
Drop in ValuesIf the private rentals are not going to be allowed to continue, it will therefore have a devastating affect on resale values of such properties. It could ultimately mean that an apartment that was worth 300,000 would now be badly affected by the loss of its 75% potential income, this could easily equate to a drop of 75% of its resale value, it could eventually be worth only 75,000 euros, this is a loss of 225,000 euros.
It is therefore in the best interests of all tourist apartment owners to support the case for private rentals.
Can't imagine turismo worrying in the slightest about property values, investors or anything else other than the hotel income.
They don't even appear to worry very much over tourist welfare. Take the latest news regarding shop and business owners asking for proper policing to kerb muggings and robberies.
The authorities don't seem to get it that anyone with a bad experience here will not only be unlikely to return, But will also spread the story.
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Hello Welshman
Tourist Apartment ValueI would like to add that some one bed apartments at Altamira sell for around 300,000 euros, with a previous potential income of around 20,000 euros per year. The rental income is a vitally important factor in maintaining a high resale value whether the apartment is rented or not.
Sole AgentThe Altamira sole agent (not British) appears to be offering around 5,000 euros per year, this equates to a loss of around 75% on rental income.
Drop in ValuesIf the private rentals are not going to be allowed to continue, it will therefore have a devastating affect on resale values of such properties. It could ultimately mean that an apartment that was worth 300,000 would now be badly affected by the loss of its 75% potential income, this could easily equate to a drop of 75% of its resale value, it could eventually be worth only 75,000 euros, this is a loss of 225,000 euros.
It is therefore in the best interests of all tourist apartment owners to support the case for private rentals.
Can't imagine turismo worrying in the slightest about property values, investors or anything else other than the hotel income.
They don't even appear to worry very much over tourist welfare. Take the latest news regarding shop and business owners asking for proper policing to kerb muggings and robberies.
The authorities don't seem to get it that anyone with a bad experience here will not only be unlikely to return, But will also spread the story.
welshman
27-01-2013, 12:29
Hello Welshman
Tourist Apartment ValueI would like to add that some one bed apartments at Altamira sell for around 300,000 euros, with a previous potential income of around 20,000 euros per year. The rental income is a vitally important factor in maintaining a high resale value whether the apartment is rented or not.
Sole AgentThe Altamira sole agent (not British) appears to be offering around 5,000 euros per year, this equates to a loss of around 75% on rental income.
Drop in ValuesIf the private rentals are not going to be allowed to continue, it will therefore have a devastating affect on resale values of such properties. It could ultimately mean that an apartment that was worth 300,000 would now be badly affected by the loss of its 75% potential income, this could easily equate to a drop of 75% of its resale value, it could eventually be worth only 75,000 euros, this is a loss of 225,000 euros.
It is therefore in the best interests of all tourist apartment owners to support the case for private rentals.
Totally agree with your comments return on investment through sole agent is not a viable investment. To be honest if the present law was totally enforced from 1995 would the south of the island have grown so quickly. Would people have purchased and handed over their property to sole agents to control. Telling them when they can use it how long they can use it for. I don,t think so.
How will this end who know,s the island needs tourists
I have followed this thread and like a lot of people my opinion is that the current state of play is not satisfactory. Renting on residential sites (to holidaymakers) is illegal. Renting on a tourist site is legal, but must be through a sole agent.
Clearly there may be owners of residential sites who rent and may have done since for a long time, as they owned well before this current law was introduced - and may not even be aware of the change. Can that be? Who paid tax is anyone's guess. Renting on a tourist site through a sole agent leaves an owner who signs up almost losing control of their own property, since you have little say in who rents the apartment and out of the goodness of his heart the agent will let you use your own apartment for a certain no. of weeks a year. My own opinion of this is that it leaves owners too open to abuse.
My own suggestion, for what it's worth is:
That ALL residential properties (whether rented or not) are deemed to have the potential to be rented. On each property there should be a 'rental tax' imposed, lets say, €2220 p.a. (€185 p.m.), to go up with inflation each year. My 'logic' for this starting figure is that, say, an apartment rents for €300 p.w. - in a full 52-week year €15,600. Allowance would be given of 15 weeks per year when the property is for the owner's occupation, or non-rented. This would reduce the notional rental income to €11,100. Tax at 20% would be €2220.
Then there should be a two-tier system.
Firstly, RESIDENTS must prove they are resident full time in the property and may then reclaim the tax, less, say admin fee, as the Spanish love admin. It may be that all claims have to be made by a professional.
NON-RESIDENTS would be required to use a professional representative in Tenerife i.e. an accountant for all fiscal matters. They would have to prove they did not rent before being allowed to reclaim.
Owners should be free to use any agent they wish through which to rent, with the proviso that the agent has a proper registered business in Tenerife. BUT, all rentals made through any agent would incur a 20% tax. PERIOD.
junglejim
27-01-2013, 12:40
Are you saying its not a legal requirement for a sole agent/hotel reception, or any other legal acommadation to inform the Police on their arrival and the same for Rent a car companies to do the same?
I didn't say that, you said the police have every tourist's detail - they don't - FACT !
I have followed this thread and like a lot of people my opinion is that the current state of play is not satisfactory. Renting on residential sites (to holidaymakers) is illegal. Renting on a tourist site is legal, but must be through a sole agent.
Clearly there may be owners of residential sites who rent and may have done since for a long time, as they owned well before this current law was introduced - and may not even be aware of the change. Can that be? Who paid tax is anyone's guess. Renting on a tourist site through a sole agent leaves an owner who signs up almost losing control of their own property, since you have little say in who rents the apartment and out of the goodness of his heart the agent will let you use your own apartment for a certain no. of weeks a year. My own opinion of this is that it leaves owners too open to abuse.
My own suggestion, for what it's worth is:
That ALL residential properties (whether rented or not) are deemed to have the potential to be rented. On each property there should be a 'rental tax' imposed, lets say, €2220 p.a. (€185 p.m.), to go up with inflation each year. My 'logic' for this starting figure is that, say, an apartment rents for €300 p.w. - in a full 52-week year €15,600. Allowance would be given of 15 weeks per year when the property is for the owner's occupation, or non-rented. This would reduce the notional rental income to €11,100. Tax at 20% would be €2220.
Then there should be a two-tier system.
Firstly, RESIDENTS must prove they are resident full time in the property and may then reclaim the tax, less, say admin fee, as the Spanish love admin. It may be that all claims have to be made by a professional.
NON-RESIDENTS would be required to use a professional representative in Tenerife i.e. an accountant for all fiscal matters. They would have to prove they did not rent before being allowed to reclaim.
Owners should be free to use any agent they wish through which to rent, with the proviso that the agent has a proper registered business in Tenerife. BUT, all rentals made through any agent would incur a 20% tax. PERIOD.
2200 euro pa is too much. In Portugal the fee is 400 euro, but of course the season in the canaries is a full 52 weeks.
You are ignoring overhead costs, cleaning , repairs, electricity etc, any business should only be taxed on net profit not gross rental revenue.
My annual figure is 1200 euro, we all should be paying that from this April and all back on the Internet bringing tourists to the islands this summer , plus the property sale / building sector could get going properly as well
No they don't - I can name 20 or more people , who are owners but here as tourists , no residentia , who are staying here and not registered via the reception.
Who are those more than 20 people?
junglejim
27-01-2013, 13:03
What ? Read my post !
They are on my complex.
Are you Ally McCoist?
Oh yeah of course
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Fact without evidence is just little nothings
junglejim
27-01-2013, 13:39
Why should I give you people's names - if you don't want to believe me , fine - just don't engage me with your one line pfft s!
Do people who own a villa here and come over as tourists give their passport details as well- no .
Ican assure you the 20 + people exist on my complex alone - so how many more are there ?
Come over as a tourist in legal tourist accomdation ?
Come over as a tourist in legal tourist accomdation ?
I think the point being made here is that they are owners on a touristic site. Non residents, drifting in and out without giving their passport details to the reception....
So didn't go through the sole agent,?
Maybe another Law non compliance
So didn't go through the sole agent,?
Maybe another Law non compliance
And they would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for that meddling electrician...:laugh:
Do you think the police here are interested in passport details - they already have that info via Airports & Carriers - they barely even look at your passport coming in or going out .
The only people that have an interest seem to be Turismo for statistical purposes -nobody takes details of owners coming and going from what I have seen ?
On arrival we take passport details from guests, we keep a copy and the other is taken to the national police in Las Americas. Should we not bother we face a hefty fine. Obviously passport details are taken by airlines so it is known you are in Tenerife, the reason we take details is because they want to know where the guests are staying!
Not exactly rocket science rolleyes2:
On arrival we take passport details from guests, we keep a copy and the other is taken to the national police in Las Americas. Should we not bother we face a hefty fine. Obviously passport details are taken by airlines so it is known you are in Tenerife, the reason we take details is because they want to know where the guests are staying!
Not exactly rocket science rolleyes2:
I am happy to to do the same, it's no great shakes, all this big brother police snooping is of course baggage from the old days and the old ways
I am happy to to do the same, it's no great shakes, all this big brother police snooping is of course baggage from the old days and the old ways
I would guess that by the time the information has been processed the punter will have long since left the island...
Clearly the sole agent is the best way
On arrival we take passport details from guests, we keep a copy and the other is taken to the national police in Las Americas. Should we not bother we face a hefty fine. Obviously passport details are taken by airlines so it is known you are in Tenerife, the reason we take details is because they want to know where the guests are staying!
Not exactly rocket science rolleyes2:
I find this really intiguing. I can see why they want the info but it must be a real pain for the likes of yourself given that nowadays flights are every day.
Do you have to do it everyday if you get new arrivals or can it wait until you have a few to hand over?
When you consider the numbers of all the legal accomodation alone the police must be overwhelmed with paperwork.
I am happy to to do the same, it's no great shakes, all this big brother police snooping is of course baggage from the old days and the old ways
So Franco-esque isn't it Nelson?
Altamira
27-01-2013, 16:15
Passports I am amazed that the sole agent supporters appear to have reduced their argument down to having to give passport details to the police. It would be relatively easy for any complex community to arrange for this odd requirement to be handled. Also as a tourist apartment owner, I along with my non paying guests have no requirement to hand over passport details to the police, therefore this passport issue is irrelevant.
BACK ON TRACK THEN
Sole agents are the bestest thing ever
they're like shiney little budda gods
they're like shiney little budda gods
You've spelt Gobshytes wrong....:laugh:
You've spelt Gobshytes wrong....:laugh:
Nice one TONTO
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