View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
You've spelt Gobshytes wrong....:laugh:
isn't it spelt "GOBSHlTES" ?
Passports I am amazed that the sole agent supporters appear to have reduced their argument down to having to give passport details to the police. It would be relatively easy for any complex community to arrange for this odd requirement to be handled. Also as a tourist apartment owner, I along with my non paying guests have no requirement to hand over passport details to the police, therefore this passport issue is irrelevant.
To be fair to the sole agents on here , I think we are mostly reaching a point where we all accept that they exist because the canary law demands it.
There are no sensible reasons for this , but we can't expect turkeys to vote for Christmas
The passport arguement would seem to me to be a total red herring as a property owner in tenerife the airline may report my presence to the police ( which Police force) but the police then have no idea where I am ( i'venever had a knock at the door to ask who Iam) so once I've landed no one knows whether I'am here or not andifIgo inter islandthere appears to be no checks
The passport arguement would seem to me to be a total red herring as a property owner in tenerife the airline may report my presence to the police ( which Police force) but the police then have no idea where I am ( i'venever had a knock at the door to ask who Iam) so once I've landed no one knows whether I'am here or not andifIgo inter islandthere appears to be no checks
who made it an argument? we don't argue about having to do it
who made it an argument? we don't argue about having to do it
Oasis, he said yes day I won't be doing it or had not done it, I was saying my guest s of 10 years don't need sole agents to meet n greet or anything else,
He brought police passport notification onto the thread at that point
Oasis, he said yes day I won't be doing it or had not done it, I was saying my guest s of 10 years don't need sole agents to meet n greet or anything else,
He brought police passport notification onto the thread at that point
You guys seriously think that we only think we're worth while because we give the police clients passports ????
isn't it spelt "GOBSHlTES" ?
Lol..yes it is but I didn't think it would get through the filter..
Lol..yes it is but I didn't think it would get through the filter..
Only sole agents can get it through the filter.....
There seems to be a few posters on this thread who think that they can have some kind of input into the minds of government officials,who will then say:"These Brits are clever folk let's do what the suggest because they have our best interests at heart". Not going to happen!!! The registering of passports with the local police happens in many countries and whilst it may seem a waste of time to some of you it is a law that tour companies ,hotels and rental complexes have to abide by.Many sensible and well informed members have explained (hundreds of times) how the sole agent on site came about and how the tourist board want someone to be totally responsible for what happens on rental complexes as in years gone by there were huge problems with over bookings,dirty accommodation,gas leaks,missing/lost keys etc.Please don't make the mistake of think the Spanish/Canarian people are in some way inferior to you,the local people on this island have shown great respect and tolerance to immigrants(us) but expect to be shown some respect in return. They need to earn some revenue from tourism and if apartment owners are chosing to pay tax on their profits in the UK then the sooner they are stopped the better.
There seems to be a few posters on this thread who think that they can have some kind of input into the minds of government officials,who will then say:"These Brits are clever folk let's do what the suggest because they have our best interests at heart". Not going to happen!!! The registering of passports with the local police happens in many countries and whilst it may seem a waste of time to some of you it is a law that tour companies ,hotels and rental complexes have to abide by.Many sensible and well informed members have explained (hundreds of times) how the sole agent on site came about and how the tourist board want someone to be totally responsible for what happens on rental complexes as in years gone by there were huge problems with over bookings,dirty accommodation,gas leaks,missing/lost keys etc.Please don't make the mistake of think the Spanish/Canarian people are in some way inferior to you,the local people on this island have shown great respect and tolerance to immigrants(us) but expect to be shown some respect in return. They need to earn some revenue from tourism and if apartment owners are chosing to pay tax on their profits in the UK then the sooner they are stopped the better.
Or receive a €15000+ fine
bonitatime
27-01-2013, 20:20
I am happy to to do the same, it's no great shakes, all this big brother police snooping is of course baggage from the old days and the old ways
Actually it is fairly new, it is a result of the Madrid bombings. Before there was no way near the controls for Hotels etc or interestingly mobile phones.
Actually it is fairly new, it is a result of the Madrid bombings. Before there was no way near the controls for Hotels etc or interestingly mobile phones.
That nelson bloke keeps getting stuff wrong
That nelson bloke keeps getting stuff wrong
Like hitlers decision making during Barbarossa
Like hitlers decision making during Barbarossa
Yeah he wouldn't make a very good sole agent.
cheers
Altamira
27-01-2013, 21:13
Actually it is fairly new, it is a result of the Madrid bombings. Before there was no way near the controls for Hotels etc or interestingly mobile phones.
Passports I have been visiting Spain for the last 40 years and I have always had to hand over my passport for a police check etc. at the hotel and get it back the next day. This was long before the Madrid bombings. Passports are irrelevant side issue regarding illegal rentals, please try and get back on track.
Back on track
It's not going to change in your favor.
You guys seriously think that we only think we're worth while because we give the police clients passports ????
Speaking for myself I don't think sole agents are needed at all, I have never needed one for 10 years.
It was oasis who said that he does the police notification , meaning is illegals not doing it is a big deal, and yes , he is therefore saying that this is an important part of needing sole agents
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Passports I have been visiting Spain for the last 40 years and I have always had to hand over my passport for a police check etc. at the hotel and get it back the next day. This was long before the Madrid bombings. Passports are irrelevant side issue regarding illegal rentals, please try and get back on track.
And it is all down to the old regime and their ways, still hanging around as Spain moves from dictatorship to democracy. As we say, what a lot of admin for la Policia in pdla.
Still gives Formica and oasis a solid reason to believe they do something useful as sole agents
Maybe Spain or the Canaries aren't really for you?
Maybe Spain or the Canaries aren't really for you?
That's an insult to the people of Spain and the canaries. As if all the Spanish people actively support my ridiculous fine for simply renting out my holiday home. As if all the Spanish people would think I have done wrong in bringing tourists to Spain.
The world moved forward and commonsense and justice prevail, Spain and the canaries are beautiful , the people are no different to you or me, this stupid episode will be overcome and when it is après democratic and free Spain will have emerged.
Your remarks imply that this riddiclous situation is what Spain stands for and should remain
What would you do differently Nelson????? Any model already out there worth a look at???
That's an insult to the people of Spain and the canaries. As if all the Spanish people actively support my ridiculous fine for simply renting out my holiday home. As if all the Spanish people would think I have done wrong in bringing tourists to Spain.
The world moved forward and commonsense and justice prevail, Spain and the canaries are beautiful , the people are no different to you or me, this stupid episode will be overcome and when it is après democratic and free Spain will have emerged.
Your remarks imply that this riddiclous situation is what Spain stands for and should remain
You're such a drama queen......................dear
don't hold your breath
I'm 100% behind the sole agent control on touristic complexes and i'm 100% behind no touristic rentals in residential complexes
Nelson, I promise you the people of Spain and the Canary Islands are insulted by people who make their money here and chose to pay the tax on the profit in the UK.,and then use illegal cleaners who don't pay social security or tax here and British illegal taxi drivers to pick them up at the airport.I promise you Nelson the people here are delighted to see you being fined so that at least they have the satisfaction of getting some money out of you after all these years.The people of Spain are like us and they are fed up to the back teeth of Brits like you telling them how the country should be run.I can only imaginge what you would have to say if they were in your country telling you how to run Yorkshire. The Spanish people fought hard and long for their freedom they don't appreciate your twisted take on their history.
P.S.Just because a member disagrees with you doesn't make him/her a sole agent!!!! It just means that todate and 570 pages later you haven't said one thing that has made any sense or come up with one proposal that could be useful.
bonitatime
28-01-2013, 08:14
Passports I have been visiting Spain for the last 40 years and I have always had to hand over my passport for a police check etc. at the hotel and get it back the next day. This was long before the Madrid bombings. Passports are irrelevant side issue regarding illegal rentals, please try and get back on track.
It is the way the reporting is done that has changed. Something that needs someone on site to do.
I find this really intiguing. I can see why they want the info but it must be a real pain for the likes of yourself given that nowadays flights are every day.
Do you have to do it everyday if you get new arrivals or can it wait until you have a few to hand over?
When you consider the numbers of all the legal accomodation alone the police must be overwhelmed with paperwork.
Not every day. Have to present them every Monday morning and each form has to be officially stamped.
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Oasis, he said yes day I won't be doing it or had not done it, I was saying my guest s of 10 years don't need sole agents to meet n greet or anything else,
He brought police passport notification onto the thread at that point
Didn't make this subject an argument just stated one of the many tasks that have to be done by sole agents, I had better not mention the monthly reports regarding numbers of tourists and duration of each visit we additionally have to do!
junglejim
28-01-2013, 09:26
Sorry I missed out on the discussions ,I had to go and watch my team of Gob****es getting gubbed then drown my sorrows -back on topic - many years ago tourists coming to Spain had to fill in little white cards with their details including passport info which were collected on the plane and presumably passed on to authorities . The USA is a different kettle of Fish !
Passport info is collected by e.g.Ryanair at booking and printout stage but nobody scans or looks seriously at your details until you return to UK via Border Agency (Passport Control).
Tourist guests in our complex handover 1 passport which is recorded but not all guests are recorded- owners in our complex who come on holiday as tourists do not do this .
They'll already be registered then JJ to the apartment they own?
junglejim
28-01-2013, 09:55
On the title deeds via NIE, but do not register when they come on holiday , same as residential apartments and villas - the police do not know where they are !
I had occassion a few years ago to take out a denuncia against 5 guys who the police had arrested, when it came to delivering the summonses the police "couldn´t find" their adresses !
if the whole point of registering is to keep track of where foreigners are the system doesnt work so whats the point of it
Anyway Sole Agents are here to stay
duncan-6
28-01-2013, 10:53
Anyway Sole Agents are here to stay
Not if Ken Dodd 2, tax exile nellie gets his way.
because thats not the whole point
What would you do differently Nelson????? Any model already out there worth a look at???
its unfair to call my proposals a model or a system. That is far too grand a way to describe simply allowing something that is not banned or overly regulated antwhere else in the world. To call my proposal a model seeks to justify the daft system that exists in the canaries in law at the moment.
All that is needed is to simply let private individuals rent out thier holiday homes, simply as that. This is what people do all around the world, its normal and uncontroversial. It does not involve any models or systems, ordinary people just get on with it.
The one important thing that in respect of the canaries, needs sorting out, is for these individual owners to start to pay an annual permit fee to the canary govt , so that some tax benefit does go direct to the islands. That is what they have started to do in portugal, but lets not get carried away calling that a model or system, what they are doing is a sensible tax of the renting owners, but actually being an owner renting out your holiday home on your own, well thats just normal everyday practice, all around the world.
The Canary Islands are leading the way then
Don't worry Nelson the sole agents will pay the tax for them.
tenerifelegal
28-01-2013, 14:57
Don't worry Nelson the sole agents will pay the tax for them.
Do the sole Agents pay the tax for the owners???
They will do .
(Plus igic).
tenerifelegal
29-01-2013, 06:26
Perhaps the sole agents on here can confirm this, as a while back I did ask this question and am sure the reply was the agents pay their own tax but it was up to the owners to pay their tax.
There is a 24.75% retention and now also igic at 7% on their invoice
tenerifelegal
29-01-2013, 10:15
Thanks for that
Sorry if I am being a bit thick but does this mean you deduct this amount from your owners and pay this on their behalf?
The present system allows certain capital improvements i.e. new kitchen to be offset against capital gains tax - when you sell! And you might have a tussle to get the expense allowed.
However, so what about routine maintenance and repairs? That's the owners problem. The owner wants to rent, so make it rentable! Such costs become reflected in what is charged to rent the property. It's not an issue for the Government.
2200 euro pa is too much. In Portugal the fee is 400 euro, but of course the season in the canaries is a full 52 weeks.
You are ignoring overhead costs, cleaning , repairs, electricity etc, any business should only be taxed on net profit not gross rental revenue.
My annual figure is 1200 euro, we all should be paying that from this April and all back on the Internet bringing tourists to the islands this summer , plus the property sale / building sector could get going properly as well
Thanks for that
Sorry if I am being a bit thick but does this mean you deduct this amount from your owners and pay this on their behalf?
The legal requirement is for us to deduct 24.75% (non resident) or 21% (resident) on a quarterly basis from the return paid to the owner. At the end of the year (December) we then issue a certificate from Hacienda for the owner to do an annual tax return whereas the majority can claim back a percentage of expenses, community fees, electricity, water, maintenance etc...
The legal requirement is for us to deduct 24.75% (non resident) or 21% (resident) on a quarterly basis from the return paid to the owner. At the end of the year (December) we then issue a certificate from Hacienda for the owner to do an annual tax return whereas the majority can claim back a percentage of expenses, community fees, electricity, water, maintenance etc...
Nelson avoids this by renting out his apartments himself and it makes the fines look much more realistic!!!
The legal requirement is for us to deduct 24.75% (non resident) or 21% (resident) on a quarterly basis from the return paid to the owner. At the end of the year (December) we then issue a certificate from Hacienda for the owner to do an annual tax return whereas the majority can claim back a percentage of expenses, community fees, electricity, water, maintenance etc...
Out of total curiosity, and I appreciate you may have to generalise, but how would the payments made on behalf of "regular owners" compare to the numbers Nellie is banding about for his "permit"?
duncan-6
29-01-2013, 11:32
Nelson avoids this by renting out his apartments himself and it makes the fines look much more realistic!!!
Yes, and after 9 years of avoiding taxes in the very place he should be paying them...TENERIFE...he suddenly has a concern for chemists, lifeguards, taxi drivers, restuarants etc..NOT.
and thats one of the reasons there's Sole Agents
Out of total curiosity, and I appreciate you may have to generalise, but how would the payments made on behalf of "regular owners" compare to the numbers Nellie is banding about for his "permit"?
For example:
On Royal Palm a one bedroom apartment rented for 40 weeks would be paying €2'079.00 in a year, over 9 years would equate to €18'711.00 - roughly the same as the average fine!
[QUOTE=Oasis;258230]For example:
On Royal Palm a one bedroom apartment rented for 40 weeks would be paying €2'079.00 in a year, over 9 years would equate to €18'711.00 - roughly the same as the average fine![/QUOTE
I knew we would get there in the end and NOW maybe Nelson can see why we have sole agents and why he can't continue to rent his apartments as and when he pleases.This really could be the end of the thread. However once he has paid his fine for illegal renting the Hacienda will be on his doorstep with his 9 years of back tax (well maybe 5 years) and the Spanish and Canarian people will be very grateful to him for his contribution to their country!!!
The legal requirement is for us to deduct 24.75% (non resident) or 21% (resident) on a quarterly basis from the return paid to the owner. At the end of the year (December) we then issue a certificate from Hacienda for the owner to do an annual tax return whereas the majority can claim back a percentage of expenses, community fees, electricity, water, maintenance etc...
Interestingly and this will upset Nelson's argument about the Canaries being alone with their strange laws, if you move abroad and let out your property in the UK, the agent is required to notify HMRC at the end of every Tax year of the full details of all income generated for you.
For example:
On Royal Palm a one bedroom apartment rented for 40 weeks would be paying €2'079.00 in a year, over 9 years would equate to €18'711.00 - roughly the same as the average fine!
Interesting - and thanks!
I guess these days IGIC would also need to be added to that as well too
mmmm
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Interestingly and this will upset Nelson's argument about the Canaries being alone with their strange laws, if you move abroad and let out your property in the UK, the agent is required to notify HMRC at the end of every Tax year of the full details of all income generated for you.
Indeed this is the case, and any tax due is payable in the UK, the country in which the income was generated.
duncan-6
29-01-2013, 17:21
24.75%....so for every 4 weeks booked, one goes rightly to the canarian govt...instead of a bent accountant in Barnsley,.....I can feel another Portugal moment coming soon!
you should see what rate us sole agents pay tax at, it's even higher!
I_N_Cognito
29-01-2013, 17:41
Curiosity loaded, your family have obviously built up quite a business empire, take it all the I’s were dotted and T’s stroked during the process, nothing ever paid in cash, tax returns 100% perfect over the years and all that...
bonitatime
29-01-2013, 17:43
Curiosity loaded, your family have obviously built up quite a business empire, take it all the I’s were dotted and T’s stroked during the process, nothing ever paid in cash, tax returns 100% perfect over the years and all that...
Sometimes the comments on here leave me gobsmacked with their personal attacks.
Curiosity loaded, your family have obviously built up quite a business empire, take it all the I’s were dotted and T’s stroked during the process, nothing ever paid in cash, tax returns 100% perfect over the years and all that...
You're joking aren't you?
These guys are perfection personified. Never once has anything been under declared.
Never paid a worker in cash..Trust me these guys will go to heaven.
Straight to hell for me though..:laugh:
Thought we were talking about illegal letting?
I_N_Cognito
29-01-2013, 17:50
It’s not an attack, it’s a question...
we're actually crime overlords who intimidated and brutalised our way to where we are, making local businesses pay protection money. We eat lots of pasta and use a razor to chop our garlic....... I can't give any details on where any bodies are - who even mentioned bodies? We digress.
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It’s not an attack, it’s a question...
"It's a sick question, you're a sick f*ck, and I'm not that sick that I'm gonna answer it…I'm not telling you anything."
Joey La Motta lays down the law.
Im sure that all those who argue for sole agents including more than one sole agent are all whiter than white and would never dream of attempting to fiddle their tax and that our electrical friend has never done a job for cash without an official invoice
I would be all for the government and the new law when the vast majority of canarians start to pay their own taxes in full and several hundred corrupt polititians are safely behind bars
so lets all support the new law when we can see some action on other tax avoidance
junglejim
29-01-2013, 18:51
[QUOTE=Loaded;258341]we're actually crime overlords who intimidated and brutalised our way to where we are, making local businesses pay protection money. We eat lots of pasta and use a razor to chop our garlic....... I can't give any details on where any bodies are - who even mentioned bodies? We digress.
My God! You´re not Kurt Konrad in disguise are you?...The German with the dodgy Chilean passport ...
" They don´t like it up em!" - Corporal Jones , Dad´s Army !
Sole Agents are here to stay according to the Tourism board and commonsense
I_N_Cognito
29-01-2013, 20:42
we're actually crime overlords who intimidated and brutalised our way to where we are, making local businesses pay protection money. We eat lots of pasta and use a razor to chop our garlic....... I can't give any details on where any bodies are - who even mentioned bodies? We digress.
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"It's a sick question, you're a sick f*ck, and I'm not that sick that I'm gonna answer it…I'm not telling you anything."
Joey La Motta lays down the law.
Claiming the fifth then...
(PS; I suppose saying nothing says it all. Oh’ and no need to swear).
Im sure that all those who argue for sole agents including more than one sole agent are all whiter than white and would never dream of attempting to fiddle their tax and that our electrical friend has never done a job for cash without an official invoice
I would be all for the government and the new law when the vast majority of canarians start to pay their own taxes in full and several hundred corrupt polititians are safely behind bars
so lets all support the new law when we can see some action on other tax avoidance
The people arguing hardest on this are the people who were knowingly holiday renting illegally (for years in some cases) and I get the impression that if the new law doesn't give them the changes in the law that they want, they will ignore the new law as well..
Claiming the fifth then...
(PS; I suppose saying nothing says it all. Oh’ and no need to swear).
Actually it was a joke I was quoting a line from raging bull, never mind.
As far as our tax is concerned we pay what we're told we have to and nothing more - nothing less.
Whatever answer I give to that question would either be disbelieved or jumped on - pointless question .
jogger321
29-01-2013, 22:52
You never hear anything from the Dinastia crowd that always used to be on this board. What happened to that chap Peter whatever his name was that was always going on about how right he was all the time ?
Nothing more to add anyone ?
Altamira
30-01-2013, 09:25
The people arguing hardest on this are the people who were knowingly holiday renting illegally (for years in some cases) and I get the impression that if the new law doesn't give them the changes in the law that they want, they will ignore the new law as well..
I do not rent out my apartment, but after closely looking at the valuation of properties, these values are often influenced and dependent on the ability to operate private rentals. Who in their right mind would want to hand over the control of their apartment to a monopoly crazed sole trader.
I do not rent out my apartment, but after closely looking at the valuation of properties, these values are often influenced and dependent on the ability to operate private rentals. Who in their right mind would want to hand over the control of their apartment to a monopoly crazed sole trader.
You'll go straight to jail for that remark - do not pass go, do not collect 200 pounds
You'll go straight to jail for that remark - do not pass go, do not collect 200 pounds
If you collect £200 do you have to declare it?..:laugh:
If you collect £200 do you have to declare it?..:laugh:
No just put it in the community chest (back pocket)
I do not rent out my apartment, but after closely looking at the valuation of properties, these values are often influenced and dependent on the ability to operate private rentals. Who in their right mind would want to hand over the control of their apartment to a monopoly crazed sole trader.
if the owner could get a decent return from the arrangement then he might want to be involved. In reality a one sided monoploy contarct is clearly not rationally going to result in a happy business deal. the words, monopoly and exploitation , sort of set the position out as to how happy the relationship would be.
Without monopoly agents many owners would still engage an agent to do the letting out, not for everyone the job of e mailing clients , sorting keys etc.
But one thing is for sure, people buying holiday homes and then renting them out is just a normal everyday event all around the world. The holiday letting internet sites that carry adverts for these properties,are very popular, and millions of customers are happy to book apartments on them and book flights to get to them, all on the internet.
Tourismo can not stand back and say that the canaries are having none of this ever. That would be criminally insane. The canaries have to move with the times, the canaries can not be excluded from this important part of tourism.
Sooner or later tourismo has to face up to its legal constituted duty, that is to promote tourism in the islands in the interests of the canarian people and economy.
That means embracing and promoting private individual renting of holiday homes, and making sure that the canaries get their full share of the tourists that the internet ads could bring to the canary islands.
Sooner or later tourismo has to face up to its legal constituted duty, that is to promote tourism in the islands in the interests of the people like nelson and Black economy.
if the owner could get a decent return from the arrangement then he might want to be involved. In reality a one sided monoploy contarct is clearly not rationally going to result in a happy business deal. the words, monopoly and exploitation , sort of set the position out as to how happy the relationship would be.
Without monopoly agents many owners would still engage an agent to do the letting out, not for everyone the job of e mailing clients , sorting keys etc.
But one thing is for sure, people buying holiday homes and then renting them out is just a normal everyday event all around the world. The holiday letting internet sites that carry adverts for these properties,are very popular, and millions of customers are happy to book apartments on them and book flights to get to them, all on the internet.
Tourismo can not stand back and say that the canaries are having none of this ever. That would be criminally insane. The canaries have to move with the times, the canaries can not be excluded from this important part of tourism.
Sooner or later tourismo has to face up to its legal constituted duty, that is to promote tourism in the islands in the interests of the canarian people and economy.
That means embracing and promoting private individual renting of holiday homes, and making sure that the canaries get their full share of the tourists that the internet ads could bring to the canary islands.
God forbid you should ever have to pay tax or VAT(IGIC). If "the rest of the world " is going to encourage you to rent out your properties without paying tax /ICIc or having any legal accountability for what you do then why the ---- are you still here where you have to do as you're told ??????
God forbid you should ever have to pay tax or VAT(IGIC). If "the rest of the world " is going to encourage you to rent out your properties without paying tax /ICIc or having any legal accountability for what you do then why the ---- are you still here where you have to do as you're told ??????
This is one of those odd posts on tax. The private individual owners are quite capable of paying their taxes. They don't need the monopoly sole agents around for this to happen.
An annual permit payable to the Canarian govt is a good start, further tax on rental profit can be sorted out.
The past is history , rejoice in sinners who repent, but please stop harping on about tax, the private renters can make a proper contribution to tax, it really won't be a problem
Nelson you have already cost the Canarian government somr30,000 in lost revenue so why would thry think you capable of paying your own tax.You are the very best example of why there has to be a sole agent on site you have broken every rule in the book.
Nelson you have already cost the Canarian government somr30,000 in lost revenue so why would thry think you capable of paying your own tax.You are the very best example of why there has to be a sole agent on site you have broken every rule in the book.
No sorry , to repeat a simply point , the past is the past, what matters now is the future.
The private holiday home renters can all pay tax to the canaries , without the sole agent system.
Tax is not relevant to the situation , except to the degree that the private apartments should be paying an annual permit fee ASAP, and this could greatly help the islands situation.
The permits of 1200 euro per apartment should begin April 2013
bonitatime
31-01-2013, 10:05
Why April?
So you keep saying nelson but it will never be like that.
I can see them getting hold of these fines and then within a few weeks, hey everyone no problem carry on it's all legel now if you pay us €1200 a year starting from April 2013.
Something you'll have to get used to.
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Why April?
Cause nellie thinks thats the start of a tax year.
Nelson you have already cost the Canarian government somr30,000 in lost revenue so why would thry think you capable of paying your own tax.You are the very best example of why there has to be a sole agent on site you have broken every rule in the book.
So whats the difference between what he has done and what the vast majority of Canarian / Spanish landlords do when long letting their properties illegally with no contracts, cash payments, no tax being paid etc?
Yapping on and on about not paying tax... you´re in the wrong country to be trying to pass that off as evil. And we are talking about letting laws - the non payment of tax is irrelevant in this regard. Besides, when in Rome etc.... At least he is "fitting in with the local culture!"
See this thread for further reading: http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerif...to-pay-any-tax
Why April?
Start of fiscal year, they need to organise the permitting , maybe let the councils do it ? Let arona put it on the rates, just let peolpe declare they holiday let.
There is no time to loose, that revenue is important , and the renters should be back on the Internet summer 2013, more tourist s that the islands need, and get the property market back to normal
So whats the difference between what he has done and what the vast majority of Canarian / Spanish landlords do when long letting their properties illegally with no contracts, cash payments, no tax being paid etc?
Yapping on and on about not paying tax... you´re in the wrong country to be trying to pass that off as evil. And we are talking about letting laws - the non payment of tax is irrelevant in this regard. Besides, when in Rome etc.... At least he is "fitting in with the local culture!"
See this thread for further reading: http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerif...to-pay-any-tax
The real difference is that Nellie has been harping on about how he has been personally bringing wealth into the islands, when actually he has not. He may well have been lining the pockets of bar owners and illegal airport runners, but what he is doing does not contribute to the coffers of the Canarian government. What his clients do spend, and the tax collected on it generally goes to Madrid rather than staying on the island.
The real point about tax though is that there is no way of collecting and paying in what he collects on his rentals as there are no systems in place for individuals like him. Equally, there is no way his wishes for a licence to rent will come about in the foreseeable future (if ever).
The real difference is that Nellie has been harping on about how he has been personally bringing wealth into the islands, when actually he has not. He may well have been lining the pockets of bar owners and illegal airport runners, but what he is doing does not contribute to the coffers of the Canarian government. What his clients do spend, and the tax collected on it generally goes to Madrid rather than staying on the island.
The real point about tax though is that there is no way of collecting and paying in what he collects on his rentals as there are no systems in place for individuals like him. Equally, there is no way his wishes for a licence to rent will come about in the foreseeable future (if ever).
Never say never, the permit monies would help the hospitals and schools, plus if arona takes the money as a local tax, not Madrid, maybe we can get the lifeguards paid
If nellie wants to contribute to the island and the people who halp look after the "tourists" he brings in, then perhaps he would like to make a contribution to the Las Vistas beach life-guards who are now on hunger strike having not been paid for 6 months and are having to live on the beach in tents....
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Never say never, the permit monies would help the hospitals and schools, plus if arona takes the money as a local tax, not Madrid, maybe we can get the lifeguards paid
When will you learn how the tax system works here??
golf birdie
31-01-2013, 12:02
When will you learn how the tax system works here??
it does not work, thats why the islands are in so much s%^%. Anyone who thinks it does is barking.
The real difference is that Nellie has been harping on about how he has been personally bringing wealth into the islands, when actually he has not. He may well have been lining the pockets of bar owners and illegal airport runners, but what he is doing does not contribute to the coffers of the Canarian government. What his clients do spend, and the tax collected on it generally goes to Madrid rather than staying on the island.
The real point about tax though is that there is no way of collecting and paying in what he collects on his rentals as there are no systems in place for individuals like him. Equally, there is no way his wishes for a licence to rent will come about in the foreseeable future (if ever).
I can't see any valid argument supporting your continual persecution of him over non payment of tax - nor do I see how it is relevant to the subject in any way.
If it's something you want to get on your high horse about there are many, many other avenues where it is a far bigger problem - I'd suggest starting a witch hunt against all the local Canarian landlords who gave been long letting multiple properties for decades whilst paying zero tax.
After which you might want to look at almost all the local businesses who employ staff, as I'd wager 90% of them are running staff on part time contracts and paying a lot of their salaries in cash. The big hotels are the biggest culprits, employing hoards of cleaners, receptionists, waiters on minimum salaries, part time contracts, firing them after 6 months to dodge indefinido contracts.... very little of the money from hotels goes into the local economy.
I am puzzled as to why some of you are not so vocal about these serious cases of tax evasion in the same way you target Nelson and others who have been caught up in this utter fiasco.
Basically, drop the tax issue because your arguement absolutely does not hold water....
golf birdie
31-01-2013, 12:25
I would bet a fair few who harp on about this tax on here are renting apartments or locals where the full tax is not being paid.
I can't see any valid argument supporting your continual persecution of him over non payment of tax - nor do I see how it is relevant to the subject in any way.
If it's something you want to get on your high horse about there are many, many other avenues where it is a far bigger problem - I'd suggest starting a witch hunt against all the local Canarian landlords who gave been long letting multiple properties for decades whilst paying zero tax.
After which you might want to look at almost all the local businesses who employ staff, as I'd wager 90% of them are running staff on part time contracts and paying a lot of their salaries in cash. The big hotels are the biggest culprits, employing hoards of cleaners, receptionists, waiters on minimum salaries, part time contracts, firing them after 6 months to dodge indefinido contracts.... very little of the money from hotels goes into the local economy.
I am puzzled as to why some of you are not so vocal about these serious cases of tax evasion in the same way you target Nelson and others who have been caught up in this utter fiasco.
Basically, drop the tax issue because your arguement absolutely does not hold water....
I no more have an issue about the tax position than you do about landlords, based presumably on your experience.
That said, the real point you have suddenly decided to miss is that whilst the law may be a fiasco it has been the law for 16+ years and it doesn't look like those who govern this country are likely to change it in favour of Nelson anytime soon.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and more power to Nelson for sticking by his as strongly as he has been. The question that has been asked of him many times though is how he is getting on in making it to the Government, whether he has found anyone that is prepared to listen to his views and if so, how have they reacted and are they taking his points forward into the debate in Parliament?
As to tax avoidance/evasion - as we all know, it starts at the top ......
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Moving on then !
Yapping, harping, nattering all words used by that charming Mr. CIM in answer to members who spend their time answering posts on the forum. No wonder so many ex members have given up the ghost. After 30 years living and working on the island in a professional capacity,fluent Spanish, plenty of contact with Spanish and Canarian residents on the island, I feel entitled to offer an opinion without your sarcastic, patronizing and often ill informed response. Nelson by his own admission has declined to pay tax or take any notice of Canarian law and his constant remarks about what the government should do (according to him) create a need for a response. I feel sorry for owners who have been caught up in the fines due to being wrongly informed by their estate agents but Nelson isn't one of them .None of this excuses what happens in local companies with their illegal contracts or landlords who don't pay tax etc.etc. The thread is about illegal lettings and no doubt the government has its own plans to improve tax collection from other sources.
Yapping, harping, nattering all words used by that charming Mr. CIM in answer to members who spend their time answering posts on the forum. No wonder so many ex members have given up the ghost. After 30 years living and working on the island in a professional capacity,fluent Spanish, plenty of contact with Spanish and Canarian residents on the island, I feel entitled to offer an opinion without your sarcastic, patronizing and often ill informed response. Nelson by his own admission has declined to pay tax or take any notice of Canarian law and his constant remarks about what the government should do (according to him) create a need for a response. I feel sorry for owners who have been caught up in the fines due to being wrongly informed by their estate agents but Nelson isn't one of them .None of this excuses what happens in local companies with their illegal contracts or landlords who don't pay tax etc.etc. The thread is about illegal lettings and no doubt the government has its own plans to improve tax collection from other sources.
It doesn't matter what language you speak, how long you have been here, your nationality or your post count, as none of these factors adds any weight to your argument so lets put all that aside .... There we go :)
No one is denying you your voice or opinion, you are not a victim here. But continually attempting to paint Nelson as an "evil tax dodger" - the epitomy of what the lovely Canarian people despise (yep those same tax dodgin Canarian people for whom tax dodgin is a national past time) is hypocritical to the extreme. It is also pointless as I have pointed out very clearly.
Reading through these posts some people really seem to have a personal vendetta against this forum member in particular. Debating and arguing is perfectly acceptable, outright telling someone they are wrong is fine. But I think a few are treading a fine line between this and vindictiveness / haranguing - borderline bullying.
It is not pretty and is rather transparent to those who have not allowed themselves to become emotionally embroiled in the debate. Keep on the right side of the fence when it comes to being civil, dont get too personal with the tirades. If you cant do that, take a break from the thread.
Fivepence
31-01-2013, 13:14
It doesn't matter what language you speak, how long you have been here, your nationality or your post count, as none of these factors adds any weight to your argument so lets put all that aside .... There we go :)
No one is denying you your voice or opinion, you are not a victim here. But continually attempting to paint Nelson as an "evil tax dodger" - the epitomy of what the lovely Canarian people despise (yep those same tax dodgin Canarian people for whom tax dodgin is a national past time) is hypocritical to the extreme. It is also pointless as I have pointed out very clearly.
Reading through these posts some people really seem to have a personal vendetta against this forum member in particular. Debating and arguing is perfectly acceptable, outright telling someone they are wrong is fine. But I think a few are treading a fine line between this and vindictiveness / haranguing - borderline bullying.
It is not pretty and is rather transparent to those who have not allowed themselves to become emotionally embroiled in the debate. Keep on the right side of the fence when it comes to being civil, dont get too personal with the tirades. If you cant do that, take a break from the thread.
A very good post.
I agree, discuss and offer opinions or thoughts but don't let it get personal.
In my view personal attacks usually mean frustration.
Lets keep it civil. :tiphat:
junglejim
31-01-2013, 13:18
Obviously some people on here have never dealt with "Sole agents" such as Konrad and his family who have powerful positions within Ashotel and Turismo . Our complex had dealings with him for yearsuntilwe ousted him - non payment of community fees , bullying of owners ,non payment of bills, dodgy fire certificates for sprinklers that never worked , non payment of "sole agent fees " ... the list goes on , and not just in our complex.
Ask people in Panorama, Atlantis, Santa Maria etc how he operates - the "law" allows him to abuse and ignore decency -this country and it´s leaders have lived in corruption , even the King´s son in law is up to his neck in it -that´s one of the reasons why it´s in a mess .
The brown envelope is part of the culture here , even in the past Estate Agents were encouraging you to register the property under value to save on tax at front end but failed to tell you of restrictions under letting laws .
CIM has explained his experiences , I have a few that can´t be publicised but I doubt if it´s ever going to be changed to any great extent. We are trying to resurrect our licence but the obstacles are unbelievable unless you cross palms with silver !
nelson = evil yorkshireman tax dodger
innit
Altamira
31-01-2013, 13:45
Obviously some people on here have never dealt with "Sole agents" such as Konrad and his family who have powerful positions within Ashotel and Turismo . Our complex had dealings with him for yearsuntilwe ousted him - non payment of community fees , bullying of owners ,non payment of bills, dodgy fire certificates for sprinklers that never worked , non payment of "sole agent fees " ... the list goes on , and not just in our complex.
Ask people in Panorama, Atlantis, Santa Maria etc how he operates - the "law" allows him to abuse and ignore decency -this country and it´s leaders have lived in corruption , even the King´s son in law is up to his neck in it -that´s one of the reasons why it´s in a mess .
The brown envelope is part of the culture here , even in the past Estate Agents were encouraging you to register the property under value to save on tax at front end but failed to tell you of restrictions under letting laws .
CIM has explained his experiences , I have a few that can´t be publicised but I doubt if it´s ever going to be changed to any great extent. We are trying to resurrect our licence but the obstacles are unbelievable unless you cross palms with silver ! Sole Agents If I were an independent sole agent or a member of their apparent fan club, I would be more worried about the well connected monopoly crazed sole agents than the small private renter. If I were the well connected sole agent, I would by hook or by crook lever the small sole agents out of existence, be aware that having private renters may actually act as a buffer against the giants of the industry.
bonitatime
31-01-2013, 14:07
Start of fiscal year, they need to organise the permitting , maybe let the councils do it ? Let arona put it on the rates, just let peolpe declare they holiday let.
There is no time to loose, that revenue is important , and the renters should be back on the Internet summer 2013, more tourist s that the islands need, and get the property market back to normal
I think this sums up your knowledge of the Spanish tax system. We pay tax from January to December in Spain not April to March.
It doesn't matter what language you speak, how long you have been here, your nationality or your post count, as none of these factors adds any weight to your argument so lets put all that aside .... There we go :)
No one is denying you your voice or opinion, you are not a victim here. But continually attempting to paint Nelson as an "evil tax dodger" - the epitomy of what the lovely Canarian people despise (yep those same tax dodgin Canarian people for whom tax dodgin is a national past time) is hypocritical to the extreme. It is also pointless as I have pointed out very clearly.
Reading through these posts some people really seem to have a personal vendetta against this forum member in particular. Debating and arguing is perfectly acceptable, outright telling someone they are wrong is fine. But I think a few are treading a fine line between this and vindictiveness / haranguing - borderline bullying.
It is not pretty and is rather transparent to those who have not allowed themselves to become emotionally embroiled in the debate. Keep on the right side of the fence when it comes to being civil, dont get too personal with the tirades. If you cant do that, take a break from the thread.
The only reason Nelson cops it all the time is he is the only person who's been caught out who's actually brave enough to stick his head above the parapet.
His problem is that by continually banging on about Hitler, Franco and dictatorships, he actually alienates people who deep down probably actually agree with his viewpoint and feel sorry for him.
Fivepence
31-01-2013, 17:31
The only reason Nelson cops it all the time is he is the only person who's been caught out who's actually brave enough to stick his head above the parapet.
His problem is that by continually banging on about Hitler, Franco and dictatorships, he actually alienates people who deep down probably actually agree with his viewpoint and feel sorry for him.
If you mention 'Hitler' it usually means you are losing the discussion..............it's known as 'Godwin's Law' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)
:whistle:
The only reason Nelson cops it all the time is he is the only person who's been caught out who's actually brave enough to stick his head above the parapet.
His problem is that by continually banging on about Hitler, Franco and dictatorships, he actually alienates people who deep down probably actually agree with his viewpoint and feel sorry for him.
Why does he not become the sole agent on his own complex, the infrastructure is there and all his neighbours would become legal?
Or can't he swallow that much humble pie!
Fivepence
31-01-2013, 17:51
The Tenerife illegal lettings thread theme tune: :D:rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jjiWS__Mp0
Nelson's Theme Tune
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY3E4rosQis
It doesn't matter what language you speak, how long you have been here, your nationality or your post count, as none of these factors adds any weight to your argument so lets put all that aside .... There we go :)
No one is denying you your voice or opinion, you are not a victim here. But continually attempting to paint Nelson as an "evil tax dodger" - the epitomy of what the lovely Canarian people despise (yep those same tax dodgin Canarian people for whom tax dodgin is a national past time) is hypocritical to the extreme. It is also pointless as I have pointed out very clearly.
Reading through these posts some people really seem to have a personal vendetta against this forum member in particular. Debating and arguing is perfectly acceptable, outright telling someone they are wrong is fine. But I think a few are treading a fine line between this and vindictiveness / haranguing - borderline bullying.
It is not pretty and is rather transparent to those who have not allowed themselves to become emotionally embroiled in the debate. Keep on the right side of the fence when it comes to being civil, dont get too personal with the tirades. If you cant do that, take a break from the thread.
There isn't a personal vendetta against Nelson I/we are only answering his posts regarding his concern for the island and it's people. It's a joke and has to be answered. I agree with you on the Canarian tax fraud but it's not committed by ordinary working people who struggle to pay their way but by companies and land/property owners.None of that excuses foreigners coming to the country and ignoring its laws or evading its tax system.My point about speaking the language and having been on the island for so long is that I have a good understanding of how the local people view us and how we treat their country. Of course I'm not a victim but I dislike your attitude and am amazed that you think its OK.Not my problem that but yours.I would just like to be able to post without the suggestion that it is in some way "harping on".Its just a POST!!!!
duncan-6
31-01-2013, 20:14
Hospitals and schools now join the list of...chemists, lifeguards, taxi;s, restuarants,
all people who nellie suddenly cares about, and at the same time not paying a cent in local taxes for 9 years,...somebody is telling bare faced porkies.
Hospitals and schools now join the list of...chemists, lifeguards, taxi;s, restuarants,
all people who nellie suddenly cares about, and at the same time not paying a cent in local taxes for 9 years,...somebody is telling bare faced porkies.
And not forgetting the hypocrites that go on about tax evasion who pretend they would never ever do anything to evade even a cent in tax.
There isn't a personal vendetta against Nelson I/we are only answering his posts regarding his concern for the island and it's people. It's a joke and has to be answered. I agree with you on the Canarian tax fraud but it's not committed by ordinary working people who struggle to pay their way but by companies and land/property owners.None of that excuses foreigners coming to the country and ignoring its laws or evading its tax system.My point about speaking the language and having been on the island for so long is that I have a good understanding of how the local people view us and how we treat their country. Of course I'm not a victim but I dislike your attitude and am amazed that you think its OK.Not my problem that but yours.I would just like to be able to post without the suggestion that it is in some way "harping on".Its just a POST!!!!
You have brought up the tax angle - again and again and again and I have told you it is hypocritical and ridiculous - you say nothing, have no argument and then later just bring it up and start yapping on about it again. Your posts are very much targeted at that one particular member, they dont read as if you are debating or discussing anything, just being vindictive.
You basically say that its OK for the locals but how dare these foreigners do it - which is just ludicrous! Only the rich Canarians and big companies do it? Total codswallop...! Tax evasion is deeply engrained in the local psyche at every level of society. I dont give a monkeys how well you think you know Canarians and their way of life, they dodge tax whenever and wherever possible, always have done. So drop the tax rubbish about Nelson because you have no credible point to make about it.
Fivepence
31-01-2013, 21:37
You have brought up the tax angle - again and again and again and I have told you it is hypocritical and ridiculous - you say nothing, have no argument and then later just bring it up and start yapping on about it again. Your posts are very much targeted at that one particular member, they dont read as if you are debating or discussing anything, just being vindictive.
You basically say that its OK for the locals but how dare these foreigners do it - which is just ludicrous! Only the rich Canarians and big companies do it? Total codswallop...! Tax evasion is deeply engrained in the local psyche at every level of society. I dont give a monkeys how well you think you know Canarians and their way of life, they dodge tax whenever and wherever possible, always have done. So drop the tax rubbish about Nelson because you have no credible point to make about it.
Codswallop Beltin word...............not used enough in today's society. :laugh:
the many members who support a sensible reform of the letting fiasco in the canaries have really said a lot on here today, thanks guys for the consideration in your comments.
It seems to me that the worst offenders in terms of bullying and personal attacks , dont actually know when they are doing it. All I am saying is that I would like to see reform of the 1995 law to make legal individual renting of private holiday homes in the canaries. Thats my position, and I also believe that that situation exists all around the world , its quite normal and uncontroversial.
Quite why these opponents of my view get so angry with me and insulting in such a personal way I really dont know? It seems clear from some of their responses today that they dont seem to be aware of their manner at all themselves when they go down this road.
I suppose a physcoanylist would know why they do it, I think that they are different types of people from diverse backgrounds, and they act in this way for different personal reasons.
You have to feel sorry for youngsters who suffer bullying on internet sites, playground bullying is bad enough, but to be riddiculed on these sites in their formative years must seem an extra burden , they sort of cant escape from it at home , the internet is world wide.
I do appreciate your supportive comments today friends, you really told some of them pretty straight, but rest assured Nelson is not one bit damaged by any of their comments.
Maybe it is just me, but until recently CIM, you had very little to say about the tax issues on the islands and were, to a great extent supportive of at least the concept that these islands may be where we have chosen to live, but in doing so accept that we have no real say in the way the country is run, other than a vote in local elections. Then, suddenly (as obvious from your continual links to the thread you opened on this subject) your personal situation has crossed the line into the grey area of taxes and the black economy and you have become very vocal on this specific issue.
Nelson, for all his faults, came on to admit his breaking the law and him knowing he had - twice!. In doing so he informed us of how he has avoided paying tax here on his earnings, and how some form of licensing system was, in his view, the answer to both his problems and for that matter the financial situation the Government faces on the islands.
In many ways, you are now both in the same position - not being able to do what you want, how you want and when you want in a country where you are merely a guest and clearly have issues getting to grips with the way things work here.
The real direction of this conversation has drifted recently and the tax issue has been added. What Nelson does not seem to be able to comprehend is how the Canary Islands function as a region of Spain which is the fundamental problem. All taxes other than IGIC are collected centrally by Madrid. This includes social payments, income tax and pretty much everything else. These funds are essentially pooled by the Mother Ship and then some are sent back in the form of the annual grant which, because of Spain's general position, has been reduced dramatically in recent years and is dispraportionatly lower per head here than in other regions of the country. It is from this grant that the Canarian Government is expected to pay for and run the Canarian Health service and many other vital functions.
Nelson seems to think that bringing in tourists to spend in local restaurants and bars, and to slip a few Euro to cleaners and mates doing airport runs is the way forward. All it is actually doing is encouraging the Black Market economy which both he and you appear to be set against, and worse still, he pockets the takings even after having paid his mortgages.
Nelson believes he has a solution in issuing licences to owners to allow them to freely let their properties. It might seem a good idea on paper but it is not within the local councils remit to do such a thing. It is a matter for the central Government to rule on and to set the standards they wish to see maintained. The sad truth is that the Canarian Government does not agree and is currently discussing other changes to the laws to the point where they will likely become tougher for those, like him, who continue to break them.
There is much sympathy for Nelson's position and I and others have asked him frequently to explain how he is getting his points and views on licensing across to the Government and what so far has been their reaction. The only information he has provided so far is that he has adjusted his 400 euro a year suggested flat license fee to a revised rate of 1,200 euro fee to take account of the Canaries being a year-round destination rather than Portugal's 6 month season. Well done for noticing the weather Nellie.
But CIM, think on, you are now making a huge issue about something which has recently come to bite you on the bum, as Nelson has when his fines arrived in the post. The black market has existed here for almost ever, as you rightly say it is engrained almost in culture. As with Nelson, you'll never change the way things have been or indeed will be, so, until you take up citizenship and get a vote at national level, it occurs to me that you are both as bad as each other.
Maybe it is just me, but until recently CIM, you had very little to say about the tax issues on the islands and were, to a great extent supportive of at least the concept that these islands may be where we have chosen to live, but in doing so accept that we have no real say in the way the country is run, other than a vote in local elections. Then, suddenly (as obvious from your continual links to the thread you opened on this subject) your personal situation has crossed the line into the grey area of taxes and the black economy and you have become very vocal on this specific issue.
What an absolute complete load of spurious nonsense.
You are a million miles from reality and clutching at straws with that load of toss.
I´ll tell you what - drop into my office anytime you like and I´ll be more than happy to show my tax receipts (be sure to bring your own financial records whilst you´re at it) I have just done them for the year. This is nothing to do with my situation nor am I crossing to whatever area or line you are chuntering on about.
I am tired of reading aggressive, vindictive bullying drivel - repetitive rubbish that is no longer a debate or an argument, just two or three pretty nasty little people continuously picking on someone else and ridiculing them for having their own opinion. Forget the subject at hand as it is barely even discussed by some of you - its just constant accusations and attempts at painting someone as "the root of all evils" for the poor Canarian people.
I have voiced my opinion about this bullying, pointed out the inconsistencies and incredible hypocrisy and oh look, now I´m the target - what a surprise....
If you have nothing constructive, useful or in your case muppet - semi intelligent to add - then perhaps you´d be best stepping back into la-la land where you seem to have come from.
Neither I, nor anybody else has accused you of any tax reporting issues - it was you who started a discussion on the subject when you were unable to obtain receipts from others for your accounts and began questioning Canarian Culture and way of life - welcome indeed to La-La Land !
Why is it that nobody really batted an eyelid at the tax evasion thread I started? A few replies and a bit of discussion but the general consensus was that it was OK really "cos their Canarian and you know - thats just what they do"
Which was exactly what I expected and wanted. And I pretty much agree - thats just the way it is and it seems to be socially acceptable - even here on the forum of halo wearing bullies.
I then directed the hypocrites on here, who were chomping off about not paying tax, to that very thread - several times in fact and you know what? Not one of you made a big fuss over there, none of you "had a right go" about tax dodging Canarians.
Again, 100% in line with my expectations.
Yet here you all are on this thread and you just cant shut up about how Nelsons tax avoidance is going to end the world as we know it. "Its evil - call the exorcist!!!" "Nelsons a witch - burn him"
Do you now get the point I made? Is it actually sinking in yet?? H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y....
Don't mind me, just passing through.......
I like most of the Star Wars films, Pea Soup and chicks with really big tits
cheers
x
To move back to the core issue,
The pro sole agent lobby here are in denial.
If the government here force a tier of managers between the client and owner who are perfectly able to deal with the matter themselves, then either the cost of that management goes on top of the price the owner needs and takes the cost beyond the amount the client wants to pay, or the the cost comes from the owner. If then the cost of ownership becomes unviable, where will the investors come from to purchase these properties to provide this accommodation ?
It's already been said by Welshman who fully understands the rental market.
AN INVESTOR HAS TO GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT OTHERWISE THEY WON'T BOTHER DOING IT.
Just like the sole agent.
In the UK and a forward thinking business like environment they understand the concept. One works with the other, not one takes and the other one loses.
It's also why the sole agent thing will never work properly.
Why is it that nobody really batted an eyelid at the tax evasion thread I started? A few replies and a bit of discussion but the general consensus was that it was OK really "cos their Canarian and you know - thats just what they do"
Which was exactly what I expected and wanted. And I pretty much agree - thats just the way it is and it seems to be socially acceptable - even here on the forum of halo wearing bullies.
I then directed the hypocrites on here, who were chomping off about not paying tax, to that very thread - several times in fact and you know what? Not one of you made a big fuss over there, none of you "had a right go" about tax dodging Canarians.
Again, 100% in line with my expectations.
Yet here you all are on this thread and you just cant shut up about how Nelsons tax avoidance is going to end the world as we know it. "Its evil - call the exorcist!!!" "Nelsons a witch - burn him"
Do you now get the point I made? Is it actually sinking in yet?? H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y....
I believe that, if anybody could be bothered or has the time, questions about tax avoidance account for a tiny proportion of the discussions on this thread, and to get it back on topic, there are more serious implications other than the dangers and implications of breaking the 1995 letting laws.
On the serious side there are the concerns over insurance. Anybody operating outside of the law cannot expect their insurance company to respect claims against it. This is very applicable should accidents happen in communal areas on complexes where claims may be made, or inside apartments themselves.
There is the issue that car insurance is likely to be invalid where the owner/driver is carrying fare paying passengers.
For that matter, there are questions relating to the mis-selling and/or mis-representation of property made by unscrupulous estate agents over the many years - a real case of hypocrisy if there ever were.
So, fully back on topic, again the question is - to Nelson - in a positive manner, how are you getting on with your representation to the Government ??
duncan-6
01-02-2013, 10:25
Any potential buyer of a touristic apartment, villa, etc, that has to pay 24.75% of all bookings to a sole agent will think twice before buying, as against the present free for all. cim is an estate agent.
I believe that, if anybody could be bothered or has the time, questions about tax avoidance account for a tiny proportion of the discussions on this thread, and to get it back on topic, there are more serious implications other than the dangers and implications of breaking the 1995 letting laws.
My point being - why do you all keep bringing it up again and again then??!
For that matter, there are questions relating to the mis-selling and/or mis-representation of property made by unscrupulous estate agents over the many years - a real case of hypocrisy if there ever were.
Not by me personally as an agent there arent...
But if you want to go down that route then at least do it properly:
There are questions relating to the mis-selling and/or mis-representation of property made by:
Unscrupulous bank staff
Unscrupulous lawyers
unscrupulous gestors
Unscrupulous Notaries
Unscrupulous developers
Unscrupulous valuation companies
None of whom bothered informing buyers about letting laws.
A poor attempt at diverting the subject and trying to insinuate that I am somehow unscrupulous or have been in the past because I am an estate agent - (which you will deny, yawn) - tedious...
cim is an estate agent.
And??!
as against the present free for all.
There isnt a present free for all...
My point on this thread recently is quite clear - I dont like the hypocrisy over the tax rubbish and I really dont like the nastiness and vindictiveness - not surprisingly I now find myself the subject of veiled insinuations....
Which just proves my point really about the level of malice amongst some of the members on this thread in particular. It needs knocked on the head - now.
Any potential buyer of a touristic apartment, villa, etc, that has to pay 24.75% of all bookings to a sole agent will think twice before buying, as against the present free for all. cim is an estate agent.
Just to clarify the payment is not to the sole agent, it is a deduction that is forwarded to the tax office.
Thank you.
Altamira
01-02-2013, 11:16
Any potential buyer of a touristic apartment, villa, etc, that has to pay 24.75% of all bookings to a sole agent will think twice before buying, as against the present free for all. cim is an estate agent.
Sole Agents Yes, sole agents will seriously damage the value of tourist apartments due the owner being unable to independently market and rent it out. I would however add that the actual loss of using a sole agent at Altamira may actually amount to approx 75%. This kind of monopoly is unacceptable to a modern society.
Sole Agents Yes, sole agents will seriously damage the value of tourist apartments due the owner being unable to independently market and rent it out. I would however add that the actual loss of using a sole agent at Altamira may actually amount to approx 75%. This kind of monopoly is unacceptable to a modern society.
If you had read this thread you would be aware that is illegal to market and rent out independently - that's why people are getting fined, probably the main reason this thread was started in the first place.
The property value on legal touristic complexes will not be damaged at all - if anything they will increase.
The words "monopoly" & "exploitation" seem to be a favourite amongst those who choose to oppose the current law.
Please don't tarnish us all with the same brush.
Fivepence
01-02-2013, 11:55
Just to clarify the payment is not to the sole agent, it is a deduction that is forwarded to the tax office.
Thank you.
So the owner gets 75.25% of the rental or is that 75.25% less the sole agents fee.
What %age does the sole agent get?
With insurance, maintenance and any other sundry costs, I think the owner would probably have to increase the rental cost to achieve an acceptable return on their investment........................or am I missing something?
duncan-6
01-02-2013, 11:55
Just to clarify the payment is not to the sole agent, it is a deduction that is forwarded to the tax office.
Thank you.
Yes, I did know that, the point being, if you were a potential buyer on a touristic site, you might think twice, and estate agents wouldn't like that.
Thank you.
Altamira
01-02-2013, 12:26
So the owner gets 75.25% of the rental or is that 75.25% less the sole agents fee.
What %age does the sole agent get?
With insurance, maintenance and any other sundry costs, I think the owner would probably have to increase the rental cost to achieve an acceptable return on their investment........................or am I missing something?
Private Rentals I had previously commented that some Altamira 1 bed tourist apartments can sell for around 300,000 euros. Many of the buyers expect to potentially earn around 20,000 euros per year, these expectations had previously maintained a high resale value.
Sole Agent Due to the recent enforcement of the 1995 tourist law, many of the apartments are now up for sale and the values are dropping due to the lack of investors. The sole agent is only offering around 5,000 euros per year, this equates to a loss of around 75% of rental income.
Property Values If you equate the loss of expected income relative to the potential value of a property it could also mean a drop of around 75%.
Tourism Surely having many thousands of people actively marketing their own tourist apartments, is far more effective in promoting a higher level of tourism, rather than a few monopoly sole agents.
So the owner gets 75.25% of the rental or is that 75.25% less the sole agents fee.
What %age does the sole agent get?
With insurance, maintenance and any other sundry costs, I think the owner would probably have to increase the rental cost to achieve an acceptable return on their investment........................or am I missing something?
The return to the owner is the amount that is subject to tax retention. The amount we charge is subject to a higher rate of tax, IGIC, & cleaning costs. Does not work on a fixed percentage however the net profit on a one bedroom, for example, is about €50.00.
With the owner having to increase the charge this would stop the unfair competition we have for being a legally registered complex.
You will not believe how many of our regular clients who have strayed up the hill to rent on a residential complex pop their heads in our office to say hello and inform us they were offered accommodation at £100.00 cheaper than we can offer. However after a little discussion they book again with us for the following year.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Private Rentals I had previously commented that some Altamira 1 bed tourist apartments can sell for around 300,000 euros. Many of the buyers expect to potentially earn around 20,000 euros per year, these expectations had previously maintained a high resale value.
Sole Agent Due to the recent enforcement of the 1995 tourist law, many of the apartments are now up for sale and the values are dropping due to the lack of investors. The sole agent is only offering around 5,000 euros per year, this equates to a loss of around 75% of rental income.
Property Values If you equate the loss of expected income relative to the potential value of a property it could also mean a drop of around 75%.
Tourism Surely having many thousands of people actively marketing their own tourist apartments, is far more effective in promoting a higher level of tourism, rather than a few monopoly sole agents.
Suggest you get together and appoint a new sole agent.
My point being - why do you all keep bringing it up again and again then??!
Not by me personally as an agent there arent...
But if you want to go down that route then at least do it properly:
There are questions relating to the mis-selling and/or mis-representation of property made by:
Unscrupulous bank staff
Unscrupulous lawyers
unscrupulous gestors
Unscrupulous Notaries
Unscrupulous developers
Unscrupulous valuation companies
None of whom bothered informing buyers about letting laws.
A poor attempt at diverting the subject and trying to insinuate that I am somehow unscrupulous or have been in the past because I am an estate agent - (which you will deny, yawn) - tedious...
And??!
There isnt a present free for all...
My point on this thread recently is quite clear - I dont like the hypocrisy over the tax rubbish and I really dont like the nastiness and vindictiveness - not surprisingly I now find myself the subject of veiled insinuations....
Which just proves my point really about the level of malice amongst some of the members on this thread in particular. It needs knocked on the head - now.
Good job we're not all as touchy as you, especially when it's usually you being unpleasant.Now stop throwing your teddy out of the pram.To give him his due Nelson keeps to his point of view and doesn't resort to petty strops but is more than capable of defending himself!!!!
duncan-6
01-02-2013, 13:05
Good job we're not all as touchy as you, especially when it's usually you being unpleasant.Now stop throwing your teddy out of the pram.To give him his due Nelson keeps to his point of view and doesn't resort to petty strops but is more than capable of defending himself!!!!
He's nellies new found buddy, next thing he'll be prattling on about Portugal and €400 permits.
I'm just finishing my second year of ownership and renting out the apartment with our sole agent. For those who think that sole agents are all bad, mine allows me to use it whenever I like, for as long as I like. I have furnished it as I liked. The sole agent has looked after the apartment, i.e., the boiler furred up, they arranged a repair, the kettle broke, they supplied a replacement immediately. They ensure the apartment is not abused. When taking into consideration, the weeks I use, and the money we "save" on renting an apartment, plus the rental income which they provide, (net), was a return to me of around 7% per annum. I think thats great and am very happy with what they have done.
I sympathise with people who seem to have bad sole agents. But they are not all the same. I don't know how anyone could rent their apartment, without having an agent of some sort, to deal with emergency's that the renters may encounter, and problems within the property.
A kettle or TV going wrong may seem a small problem, but to a holiday maker, they need it fixed and pronto tonto.
For people saying there is no other business like the sole agency that is practised in the Canaries. What would you call a franchise, example Starbucks or McDonalds, where I believe you are dictated as to selling price of items, and you have to purchase your stock from them. (or even a Landlord in a tied Pub come to think about it).
If you don't like the rules in the Canaries, where we are the foreigners, why not just sell up and buy somewhere else. I hear somewhere that Portugal has a different system.
Tourism Surely having many thousands of people actively marketing their own tourist apartments, is far more effective in promoting a higher level of tourism, rather than a few monopoly sole agents.
Not at all, every month I look at the bookingd the owners have and the werid gaps that appear between their own bookings losing at least a week of occupancy per 2 owner booked apartments each month (in months that we're full).
If these bookings had been put in those apartments by myself I could have rearranged the bookings and booked the space in between - as things stand each owner usually has between 4 and 10 days in their apartment empty in prime months because they do their own bookings.
So becuase of this our complex loses out on about 25 weeks of bookings each month.
Altamira
01-02-2013, 15:16
Suggest you get together and appoint a new sole agent.[/QUOTE]
Sole Agent Our sole agent is well connected to the original developers and they appear to run some of the apartments as a hotel and others as a time share.
Do they have 50%+ to actually qualify as the sole agent? Are they breaking the law? Have they been fined? I don't have these answers, but I think it could be very difficult to dislodge them. I think some would be willing to work with them, but others would be very unhappy, especially if they were forced into a unattractive arrangement.
Fivepence
01-02-2013, 15:28
I'm just finishing my second year of ownership and renting out the apartment with our sole agent. For those who think that sole agents are all bad, mine allows me to use it whenever I like, for as long as I like. I have furnished it as I liked. The sole agent has looked after the apartment, i.e., the boiler furred up, they arranged a repair, the kettle broke, they supplied a replacement immediately. They ensure the apartment is not abused. When taking into consideration, the weeks I use, and the money we "save" on renting an apartment, plus the rental income which they provide, (net), was a return to me of around 7% per annum. I think thats great and am very happy with what they have done.
I sympathise with people who seem to have bad sole agents. But they are not all the same. I don't know how anyone could rent their apartment, without having an agent of some sort, to deal with emergency's that the renters may encounter, and problems within the property.
A kettle or TV going wrong may seem a small problem, but to a holiday maker, they need it fixed and pronto tonto.
For people saying there is no other business like the sole agency that is practised in the Canaries. What would you call a franchise, example Starbucks or McDonalds, where I believe you are dictated as to selling price of items, and you have to purchase your stock from them. (or even a Landlord in a tied Pub come to think about it).
If you don't like the rules in the Canaries, where we are the foreigners, why not just sell up and buy somewhere else. I hear somewhere that Portugal has a different system.
I understand your post perfectly and overall it sounds good :thanx:......it just doesn't seem right that they dictate when you can make use of your own asset although I again understand that only one person can successfully control the bookings and so I suppose you must accept that situation. :)
Peterrayner
01-02-2013, 16:03
He got is comeupance...his wife contracted terminal lung cancer and died. Thanks for asking.
Good job we're not all as touchy as you, especially when it's usually you being unpleasant.Now stop throwing your teddy out of the pram.To give him his due Nelson keeps to his point of view and doesn't resort to petty strops but is more than capable of defending himself!!!!
No teddies, no prams, just putting you firmly in your place because most of what you say on here is incorrect / baseless and a lot of what you come out with towards Nelson is very bitter sounding and vindictive - not nice really and there´s no need for it.
He got is comeupance...his wife contracted terminal lung cancer and died. Thanks for asking.
Very Sorry to hear that Peter .
Fivepence
01-02-2013, 16:16
He got is comeupance...his wife contracted terminal lung cancer and died. Thanks for asking.
I'm so sorry Peter, that's very sad..........God Bless.
bonitatime
01-02-2013, 16:17
He got is comeupance...his wife contracted terminal lung cancer and died. Thanks for asking.
Sorry for your loss
welshman
01-02-2013, 16:34
He got is comeupance...his wife contracted terminal lung cancer and died. Thanks for asking.
Sorry to hear of your sad loss God Bless you and Your Family
junglejim
01-02-2013, 16:37
Altamira -you obviously have experience of Konrad and his empire as we did but managed to get him out though he still owns some property within the complex .
He is legend in our place for not paying community charges , derramas or rentals on "lease backs " when he was sole agent -he operates the same way in several other complexes as you know - Law may be lucky with his agent but evidence on this thread shows that Konrad is one of the reasons people do not want a sole agent like him who abuses the system and bullies owners with threats!
He has recently re- leased the restaurant and bar but the new tenants have found the the sprinkler system that was installed and passed witha certificate a few years ago ,never actually worked ! I wonder who he paid off for that to be passed ?
mine allows me to use it whenever I like, for as long as I like.
I understand your post perfectly and overall it sounds good :thanx:......it just doesn't seem right that they dictate when you can make use of your own asset although I again understand that only one person can successfully control the bookings and so I suppose you must accept that situation. :)
Not sure if you read the first post correctly? He says he can use it as much as he likes.
Fivepence
01-02-2013, 16:41
Not sure if you read the first post correctly? He says he can use it as much as he likes.
Yes I did Oasis.............the key words are 'he allows me' :)
It seems that the more we hear about "sole agents" being crooks or not, the more it appears that it is only Kurt Konrad who has got a bad reputation - indeed I see many regular compliments of Oasis and myself and now Law is complimenting his sole agent.... could it be that the good ones aren't the exceptions and that Kurt Konrad (if what we hear is true and he's bad) is actually the exception?
It would be interesting to find out how many places the majority of owners are happy with the sole agent out of all the ones who operate.
I suppose it comes down to turismo ensuring owners get a fair deal and that there is a value add where sole agents are concerned.
What's interesting is that only 2 agents seem happy to come on here and talk about it / defend their industry.
Unfortunately the system as it stands is wide open to total abuse.... Until this changes, most people are going to be vary wary when considering purchasing on a touristic complex.
It's a shame some of them do take advantage as you and Oasis are two examples where owners seem happy and I would presume your businesses are profitable so why aren't all agents working I am a similar fashion?
It seems that the more we hear about "sole agents" being crooks or not, the more it appears that it is only Kurt Konrad who has got a bad reputation - indeed I see many regular compliments of Oasis and myself and now Law is complimenting his sole agent.... could it be that the good ones aren't the exceptions and that Kurt Konrad (if what we hear is true and he's bad) is actually the exception?
three cheers for ''our sole'' agents ,:tiphat:Oops
I've been asked recently to look at another complex in another town a bit further away from Los Cristianos, small complex about 50 units, had a license, can recover it, owners bought for investment but are now stranded without a sole agent. however:
It's in a town that is pretty busy but nowhere near as busy as Los Cristianos (probably on par with Golf del sur), looking at the potential its hard to weigh up if it's even worth bothering with here's why:
1. I'd need half the units to sign up for it to get going.
2. It would be hard to get all the owners maximum occupancy straight away as the business would be built up from scratch.
3. if the owners lose patience or break away and start getting outside managment involved you risk losing the license (hard to denounce owners who do this).
4. Running costs and start up costs would be big - running costs probably for that probably 10,000 per month in wages alone let alone rental of reception unit. Start up costs depend on what needs doing in the reception unit, building and promoting a website, creating publicity (brochures etc).....
5. Investing that amount of money into a business where the owners have the ability to pull the plug on you is risky - you're only in business as long as the owners have faith in you - if they get impatient while you're building the business up you its beddy byes .
Who would be up for sticking a load of eggs in a basket that can get shook to hell?
boredinscotland
01-02-2013, 18:17
Sorry to hear your news Peter,,RIP Mrs Rayner
Altamira
01-02-2013, 18:40
I've been asked recently to look at another complex in another town a bit further away from Los Cristianos, small complex about 50 units, had a license, can recover it, owners bought for investment but are now stranded without a sole agent. however:
It's in a town that is pretty busy but nowhere near as busy as Los Cristianos (probably on par with Golf del sur), looking at the potential its hard to weigh up if it's even worth bothering with here's why:
1. I'd need half the units to sign up for it to get going.
2. It would be hard to get all the owners maximum occupancy straight away as the business would be built up from scratch.
3. if the owners lose patience or break away and start getting outside managment involved you risk losing the license (hard to denounce owners who do this).
4. Running costs and start up costs would be big - running costs probably for that probably 10,000 per month in wages alone let alone rental of reception unit. Start up costs depend on what needs doing in the reception unit, building and promoting a website, creating publicity (brochures etc).....
5. Investing that amount of money into a business where the owners have the ability to pull the plug on you is risky - you're only in business as long as the owners have faith in you - if they get impatient while you're building the business up you its beddy byes .
Who would be up for sticking a load of eggs in a basket that can get shook to hell?
This is simply a business decision for you to make, it is much the same for an independent private renter. The question is do the risks outweigh the gains.
This is simply a business decision for you to make, it is much the same for an independent private renter. The question is do the risks outweigh the gains.
its a lot of hassle thats for sure, I doubt I'll persue it because it's just not worth the time involved waiting for it to turn profitable. Always a struggle dealign with what the public expect vs what the owners demand - I don't think I could handle it on two fronts!!!!
I understand your post perfectly and overall it sounds good :thanx:......it just doesn't seem right that they dictate when you can make use of your own asset although I again understand that only one person can successfully control the bookings and so I suppose you must accept that situation. :)
To make myself more clear I book the weeks I want say 6 months in advance, and then the sole agent has free reign over the other months. Our sole agent is aware of the usual times when I require the apartment (I have to follow the school calender), so they don't dictate to me! There is no dictating done by either party, theres no need, its all done amicably. I guess thats the benefit of having a good and proper sole agent who behaves in a professional manner. The sole agent in my case has provided advice on many ocasions, where to buy this, where to get that, what sort of furniture the rental clients prefer etc etc. They are a source of all sorts of useful information, so yes I can live with it, very nice too.
Sounds like how we work too, owner gives us their dates we book around - easy
Fivepence
01-02-2013, 19:41
To make myself more clear I book the weeks I want say 6 months in advance, and then the sole agent has free reign over the other months. Our sole agent is aware of the usual times when I require the apartment (I have to follow the school calender), so they don't dictate to me! There is no dictating done by either party, theres no need, its all done amicably. I guess thats the benefit of having a good and proper sole agent who behaves in a professional manner. The sole agent in my case has provided advice on many ocasions, where to buy this, where to get that, what sort of furniture the rental clients prefer etc etc. They are a source of all sorts of useful information, so yes I can live with it, very nice too.
Thanks for the explanation...........sounds good. :thanx::tiphat:
Not at all, every month I look at the bookingd the owners have and the werid gaps that appear between their own bookings losing at least a week of occupancy per 2 owner booked apartments each month (in months that we're full).
If these bookings had been put in those apartments by myself I could have rearranged the bookings and booked the space in between - as things stand each owner usually has between 4 and 10 days in their apartment empty in prime months because they do their own bookings.
So becuase of this our complex loses out on about 25 weeks of bookings each month.
So is it legal or illegal for owners to get there bookings and pass them to you to look after and do cleaning ect?
delderek
01-02-2013, 19:58
This thread really is going on and off topic. I am sure by now everyone knows the law. Then we come to the Sole agents, and it's obvious that they range from good to bloody awful, Loaded and Oasis, seem to be the ones that everybody could work with, and I'm sure there are many others. CIM who normally has very reasoned posts has gone off at a tangent, because his rental plans need to be "under the counter" due to the Canarian's not wanting to pay any tax, and he is not wrong in saying it's a local way of life. Our friend Nelson has his ideas, and they are not without merit. CIM and his tax evasion is also correct, but go back 25 years and no one paid tax, it was a joke, that's why many people invested, but they will catch up eventually and all loopholes will be closed. But today Nelson or CIM, you ain't gonna change nothing. So accept how it is, because in the near future a few pi**sed off Brits, will not change anything, except to raise your own Blood Pressure.
Just to add a question to CIM. How come you have so many bargain cheap properties on your books, which are to good to miss, that you would want to rent a property and not buy??
CIM who normally has very reasoned posts has gone off at a tangent, because his rental plans need to be "under the counter" due to the Canarian's not wanting to pay any tax, and he is not wrong in saying it's a local way of life.
With all respect Del I dont think you have really understood what I have said or why I have said it.
There´s a small group on this thread who will not stop trying to make the tax avoidance element out to be the crime of the century - which is ridiculous, because as you say and as I have demonstrated in another thread - it is a way of life and socially acceptable (even amongst the halo wearing bunch on here) hence my annoyance that one person has continuously been singled out and victimized over it in a very cynical and unfair manner.
Personally I couldnt care less if everyone wants to avoid tax, I aint going to change it and wouldn't even bother trying - its not my fight....
I hope I have now made that clear and the whole tax thing can stop being used as a pointy stick - because it´s a hypocritical viewpoint.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Just to add a question to CIM. How come you have so many bargain cheap properties on your books, which are to good to miss, that you would want to rent a property and not buy??
What does that have to do with this thread?? You were
just moaning about being off topic one post back. Now you come up with that by trolling gem...!
This thread is turning into a bleeding joke, we all know what the canarians want from the owners and thats cash, it has nothing to do with tax, you own on a residencial complex then your ****ed, you own on touristic then the sole agent looks after your assetts, quite straighforward to me , or am i missing something, you own a villa then you are still ****ed, no licences being issued, well all i can say is stick in there villa owners you are offering a something that everywhere else in the world is offering without the crap of huge fines, sod um all these people want private villas,who the hell gave the canarian government dictatership
OH and by the way dont go there with CIM he knows more about this law than anyone else but hes having to be honest to clients everyday,its hard to dampen peoples dreams but he, being a honest agent does it, well done andy, you deserve more respect
junglejim
02-02-2013, 07:04
A query for those sole agents "In the Know" - if 50% +1 or more owners on a Touristic Complex agree to go with a Sole Agent for letting purposes , does that mean when it comes to decisions at the AGM they are disenfranchised and have no voting rights on the running of their complex as the Sole Agent then has the majority control ?
If that´s the case, the Sole Agent can set fees , attribute costs , policy as he will always have control?
tenerifelegal
02-02-2013, 07:44
To make myself more clear I book the weeks I want say 6 months in advance, and then the sole agent has free reign over the other months. Our sole agent is aware of the usual times when I require the apartment (I have to follow the school calender), so they don't dictate to me! There is no dictating done by either party, theres no need, its all done amicably. I guess thats the benefit of having a good and proper sole agent who behaves in a professional manner. The sole agent in my case has provided advice on many ocasions, where to buy this, where to get that, what sort of furniture the rental clients prefer etc etc. They are a source of all sorts of useful information, so yes I can live with it, very nice too.
Who pays the tax and igec for the owners bookings the sole agent or the owner?
If the owner does that mean two declarations every quarter?
A query for those sole agents "In the Know" - if 50% +1 or more owners on a Touristic Complex agree to go with a Sole Agent for letting purposes , does that mean when it comes to decisions at the AGM they are disenfranchised and have no voting rights on the running of their complex as the Sole Agent then has the majority control ?
If that´s the case, the Sole Agent can set fees , attribute costs , policy as he will always have control?
The owner of the apartment has the vote at the AGM regardless of whether it is registered with the sole agent or not. Having the 50%+ does not give the vote to the agent.
Our agent is paying the 7% IGIC on rentals (from 1/1/13) as they have taken the rental on our behalf and its their responsibility to pay the tax as they have always done for the IGIC charged on the cleaning/laundry/booking commission they take for the respective booking.
We pay the 25% tax on the profit - if there is any !!!
As I understand it if owners continue take bookings they are then a rental agent and need to register as an agent and pay the IGIC on the rentals (as if !)
So is it legal or illegal for owners to get there bookings and pass them to you to look after and do cleaning ect?
The bookings I was talking about were for legally registered apartments whose owners "do their own thing".
I would say it is illegal for owners to get their own bookings , the "unity of exploitation" law doesn't mean "loads of people can book their own apartment so long as they're registered to the sole agent" , it means "only one company can book the apartments".
So I would say its illegal - will anything happen to anyone doing it? I don't know. Can sole agents stop owners from doing it? Yes, but you'd have a lot of ****** off owners.
However by not stopping them we get a price war within the complex we're all trying to promote. This means the price we charge isn't as high as we'd like it to be which then means we can't pay as much to owners for booking their apartment .
I think there is a lot of confusion over owners doing their own bookings through the sole agent - it seems a good compromise and just plain common sense if owners have their own clients, friends etc that want to use the apartment and pay.
Whats the difference for example between Thomas Cook or some other company in the UK advertising Paloma Beach and sending bookings and the owner advertising it and sending bookings?
If the tour company can do it legally, there must be some way of ensuring the owner is not breaking any laws if they do it?
Could it be done so that the owner then receives their standard return on the week plus an element of commission for the booking - the same commission fee that the tour operator would receive? (Or probably a bit less than that as they are only booking one week out as opposed to an tour operator maybe booking hundreds.)
This as a legal method would also ensure owners can increase their occupancy levels whilst being rewarded for it. The alternative is a naff license holder with crappy marketing skills cant fill the apartments and wont let the owners fill them either or because they cant fill them they hand them all to a tour operator thus incurring 20%+ fees for the owner on every booking.
I know a complex that seems to do this - just about everything comes from tour operators and the owners have no options in it.
Yeah but warrabout the tax issues
x
Although they are fantastic apartments on a very, very nice complex. The returns are pretty low as a result...!
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Yeah but warrabout the tax issues
x
Dodge it...
I think there is a lot of confusion over owners doing their own bookings through the sole agent - it seems a good compromise and just plain common sense if owners have their own clients, friends etc that want to use the apartment and pay.
Whats the difference for example between Thomas Cook or some other company in the UK advertising Paloma Beach and sending bookings and the owner advertising it and sending bookings?
If the tour company can do it legally, there must be some way of ensuring the owner is not breaking any laws if they do it?
Could it be done so that the owner then receives their standard return on the week plus an element of commission for the booking - the same commission fee that the tour operator would receive? (Or probably a bit less than that as they are only booking one week out as opposed to an tour operator maybe booking hundreds.)
This as a legal method would also ensure owners can increase their occupancy levels whilst being rewarded for it. The alternative is a naff license holder with crappy marketing skills cant fill the apartments and wont let the owners fill them either or because they cant fill them they hand them all to a tour operator thus incurring 20%+ fees for the owner on every booking.
I know a complex that seems to do this - just about everything comes from tour operators and the owners have no options in it.
I guess the legal way would be for the owners to become tour operators and have price parity
I think there is a lot of confusion over owners doing their own bookings through the sole agent - it seems a good compromise and just plain common sense if owners have their own clients, friends etc that want to use the apartment and pay.
Whats the difference for example between Thomas Cook or some other company in the UK advertising Paloma Beach and sending bookings and the owner advertising it and sending bookings?
If the tour company can do it legally, there must be some way of ensuring the owner is not breaking any laws if they do it?
Could it be done so that the owner then receives their standard return on the week plus an element of commission for the booking - the same commission fee that the tour operator would receive? (Or probably a bit less than that as they are only booking one week out as opposed to an tour operator maybe booking hundreds.)
This as a legal method would also ensure owners can increase their occupancy levels whilst being rewarded for it. The alternative is a naff license holder with crappy marketing skills cant fill the apartments and wont let the owners fill them either or because they cant fill them they hand them all to a tour operator thus incurring 20%+ fees for the owner on every booking.
I know a complex that seems to do this - just about everything comes from tour operators and the owners have no options in it.
I guess the legal way would be for the owners to become tour operators and have price parity
I guess the legal way would be for the owners to become tour operators and have price parity
Loaded do you get many Tour Operators in Paloma Beach?
duncan-6
02-02-2013, 13:28
Although they are fantastic apartments on a very, very nice complex. The returns are pretty low as a result...!
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Dodge it...
Dodge it, just like all the canarians eh, or just for 9 years, and then all of a sudden become mother Theresa, caring for chemists, lifeguards, hospitals, restuarants, taxi drivers etc, yes your honour.
No teddies, no prams, just putting you firmly in your place because most of what you say on here is incorrect / baseless and a lot of what you come out with towards Nelson is very bitter sounding and vindictive - not nice really and there´s no need for it.
Don't worry, you will eventually understand, I now realise it has to be expalined several times.The tax issue was brought to the fore in answer to Nelson asking why it was necessary to have a sole agent who was responsible for the complex.Part of the answer to this was that a sole agent would be responsible for making sure that IGIC and impuestos were paid.Nelson explained that he didn't need to pay tax inTenerife as he paid it in the UK.The rest is history.Nobody is being vindictive ,just posting replies to other posts.It's called a forum!!!
Loaded do you get many Tour Operators in Paloma Beach?
We work mainly with travel agents, but just got rid of TUI last year and welcome beds this year.
We work with about 10 good travel agents / tour operators.
We work mainly with travel agents, but just got rid of TUI last year and welcome beds this year.
We work with about 10 good travel agents / tour operators.
And they do there own advertising for Paloma Beach and then book the apartments via you the sole agent yeah ?
I think there is a lot of confusion over owners doing their own bookings through the sole agent - it seems a good compromise and just plain common sense if owners have their own clients, friends etc that want to use the apartment and pay.
Whats the difference for example between Thomas Cook or some other company in the UK advertising Paloma Beach and sending bookings and the owner advertising it and sending bookings?
If the tour company can do it legally, there must be some way of ensuring the owner is not breaking any laws if they do it?
Could it be done so that the owner then receives their standard return on the week plus an element of commission for the booking - the same commission fee that the tour operator would receive? (Or probably a bit less than that as they are only booking one week out as opposed to an tour operator maybe booking hundreds.)
This as a legal method would also ensure owners can increase their occupancy levels whilst being rewarded for it. The alternative is a naff license holder with crappy marketing skills cant fill the apartments and wont let the owners fill them either or because they cant fill them they hand them all to a tour operator thus incurring 20%+ fees for the owner on every booking.
I know a complex that seems to do this - just about everything comes from tour operators and the owners have no options in it.
We introduced this system last year - and it works very well keeping the booking handled by us within the touristic laws. Additionally paying the owner a higher return than standard.
Don't worry, you will eventually understand, I now realise it has to be expalined several times.The tax issue was brought to the fore in answer to Nelson asking why it was necessary to have a sole agent who was responsible for the complex.Part of the answer to this was that a sole agent would be responsible for making sure that IGIC and impuestos were paid.Nelson explained that he didn't need to pay tax inTenerife as he paid it in the UK.The rest is history.Nobody is being vindictive ,just posting replies to other posts.It's called a forum!!!
I think we have conclusively shown that no-one really gives a crap about him paying tax so there´s no reason to mention it again really...
Nelson paying his tax in the UK instead of here is valid - according to several qualified UK accountants.
So the tax angle you insist on continuously raising, is spurious to the debate on this thread.
And they do there own advertising for Paloma Beach and then book the apartments via you the sole agent yeah ?
Lol yes they do
We introduced this system last year - and it works very well keeping the booking handled by us within the touristic laws. Additionally paying the owner a higher return than standard.
It makes a lot of sense! As I cant see the difference between a UK individual sending bookings to sole agent here (for their own apartment or otherwise) and a UK limited company (tour operator) sending bookings to a sole agent here.
So I guess when people are buying on touristic they need to ask these sorts of questions and where a sole agent will not allow them to send bookings but will allow a tour operator to send bookings, then they should avoid buying there. Those who own on complexes where it is the case that they cannot send bookings should rightfully feel aggrieved!
I think we have conclusively shown that no-one really gives a crap about him paying tax so there´s no reason to mention it again really...
Nelson paying his tax in the UK instead of here is valid - according to several qualified UK accountants.
So the tax angle you insist on continuously raising, is spurious to the debate on this thread.
Just a little off topic, sorry, but don't believe what UK accountants are telling you about tax affairs in a country they do reside in. Tax on rental income has to be paid here in Tenerife.
It makes a lot of sense! As I cant see the difference between a UK individual sending bookings to sole agent here (for their own apartment or otherwise) and a UK limited company (tour operator) sending bookings to a sole agent here.
So I guess when people are buying on touristic they need to ask these sorts of questions and where a sole agent will not allow them to send bookings but will allow a tour operator to send bookings, then they should avoid buying there. Those who own on complexes where it is the case that they cannot send bookings should rightfully feel aggrieved!
The difference is probably that even though they're doing pretty much the same thing it's not the same thing.....
Tour operators and travel agents are ABTA bonded - owners aren't.
A lot of owners are into their 70s and 80s and I can tell you that many of them should not be allowed to take their own bookings - it can be a nightmare .
Lol yes they do
And that's considered correct because they have a tour operators license to do so?
And that's considered correct because they have a tour operators license to do so?
Weird isn't it?
I can use a screw driver so I can do electricity installations right? Lol
I don't see it as weird, i see it as perfectly clear how the Law is
No commerical advertising unless you have a tour operator licence or you are the sole agent.
Certainly saves on bandwidth
Those www.sallyandpeterslovelyapartmentintenerife.com type sites always were a bit drag.
It makes a lot of sense! As I cant see the difference between a UK individual sending bookings to sole agent here (for their own apartment or otherwise) and a UK limited company (tour operator) sending bookings to a sole agent here.
So I guess when people are buying on touristic they need to ask these sorts of questions and where a sole agent will not allow them to send bookings but will allow a tour operator to send bookings, then they should avoid buying there. Those who own on complexes where it is the case that they cannot send bookings should rightfully feel aggrieved!
Would this not fall under the duties of the agent selling the property, assuming it wasn't a private sale of course?
welshman
02-02-2013, 16:57
It makes a lot of sense! As I cant see the difference between a UK individual sending bookings to sole agent here (for their own apartment or otherwise) and a UK limited company (tour operator) sending bookings to a sole agent here.
So I guess when people are buying on touristic they need to ask these sorts of questions and where a sole agent will not allow them to send bookings but will allow a tour operator to send bookings, then they should avoid buying there. Those who own on complexes where it is the case that they cannot send bookings should rightfully feel aggrieved!
Here is whats happened to friends of mine They purchased in touristic complex with fixed 3 year contract for renting 2005/2008 very happy no problem they could use it 2 weeks per year. As it was long term investment things were fine. Due to down turn in 2008 the contract was not renewed because the complex could not fill their own apartments that they had on their books. They said what do we do with the apartment rent it yourself if you want. Since the crack down they realise they were illegal, contacted complex again to take it over. But because they had improved the apartment considerably with new kitchen/bathroom new tiles windows and doors sun blind etc. They did not want to take it over as it would stand out against their stock of apartment and could cause customer complaints. And yes they did declared all earning in Tenerife and pay taxes. Hence its up forsale, there must be a system that will help all as one does not fit every bodies needs.
Here is whats happened to friends of mine They purchased in touristic complex with fixed 3 year contract for renting 2005/2008 very happy no problem they could use it 2 weeks per year. As it was long term investment things were fine. Due to down turn in 2008 the contract was not renewed because the complex could not fill their own apartments that they had on their books. They said what do we do with the apartment rent it yourself if you want. Since the crack down they realise they were illegal, contacted complex again to take it over. But because they had improved the apartment considerably with new kitchen/bathroom new tiles windows and doors sun blind etc. They did not want to take it over as it would stand out against their stock of apartment and could cause customer complaints. And yes they did declared all earning in Tenerife and pay taxes. Hence its up forsale, there must be a system that will help all as one does not fit every bodies needs.
I've heard similar happen at Laguna park 2. Just dumb management agent there really.
I've heard similar happen at Laguna park 2. Just dumb management agent there really.
Would the agent not be legally obliged to take it on seeing as the law says you have to use him?
Would the agent not be legally obliged to take it on seeing as the law says you have to use him?
Not at all, we've told owners to do one too, for different reasons though.
Not all property owners are decent either, there's one owner we have who is close to getting his keys thrown at him- tells me to let his apartment so I give him a list of bookings then he emails saying "I'm coming in 2 weeks time".... Totally screws up the bookings I've given him and then I've got to run around trying to re-home the bookings.
He gives no reasons for being such an ignoramus - there's no way i'll force myself to continue working with him if he continues like that.
The difference is probably that even though they're doing pretty much the same thing it's not the same thing.....
Tour operators and travel agents are ABTA bonded - owners aren't.
A lot of owners are into their 70s and 80s and I can tell you that many of them should not be allowed to take their own bookings - it can be a nightmare .
This is something I am sure owner and sole agent can sort out... The fact a minority of are incapable should not mean everybody else is disqualified from doing this. All the owner is doing is generating leads for their own apartment - incredibly important for them if the sole agent is not able to fill their apartment as that reduces substantially the amount they receive back once the agent and tour operator has been paid.
If the owner is getting more money and is happier, the sole agent is getting more money and is happier (I am sure Thomsons et al ask a lot more commission of sole agents than they can probably get away with paying the owners for sending in their leads) so this seems like a no brainer.
Not everything will run smoothly and their will be a few bumps in the road but that's going to be the case whichever system is in use (Maesto´s recent debacle being a prime example...!)
Would this not fall under the duties of the agent selling the property, assuming it wasn't a private sale of course?
No - the agent has no "duties" as the industry is completely unregulated. A lot of the ones I have spoken to have (and continue to give) bad advice for one of two reasons:
Ignorance - they simply do not understand the law or how it is applied and what sole agents are willing to so for clients on different complexes. A lot of them are just salesmen employed to do viewings and try and sell whatever to whomever - cant blame em I suppose if they have had no training.
They dont care - still plenty of them selling rubbish on false promises of high returns (Caledonia Park is a good example)
You can lump banks in with the agents too - and the gestors they employ to sell their repos. As I frequently see repossessions marketed as great investments for holiday rentals - Marina Palace in Playa Paraiso being a good example.
Andy you're not suggesting anything that isn't already happening. We even give owners a 10% commission for passing us clients when their own apartment is booked....
No one is disqualifying anyone - only it appears you were suggesting that anyone is capable of doing what travel agents do (better than travel agents even?)..... Just because you have bought an apartment it doesn't make you a genius in marketing and customer service over night - many owners successfully manage it and are good at it, but for every owner we have who does a good job of their own bookings there are 5 who make a right mess of things.
Anyone can sell a property but are they going to do it as professionally as you? Are they going to give the right advice? Are they going to get the property in the shop window as well as you?
Welsh mans post brings us back to the Alice in wonderland situation as regards sole agency.
There is quite simply no logical reason whatsoever to artificially group together a complex full of individual private renters under a sole monopoly agent.
What or where is the need to want to do that ?
When individuals buy a holiday home and then want to rent it out , well that's the normal uncontroversial thing to do the world over . As we all know, including tourismo, there are Internet sites who specialise in advertising private holiday homes, that is the main selling point is rent someone's holiday home. Tourismo, who normally study tourist trends in vital detail, must be well aware that this part of tourism is growing Europe and worldwide.
What sunspot says about villas applies to all types of private holiday home, the renting out of them should be legal.
Tourismo, with all it's knowledge of tourism, is not abiding by its own constitutional duty , to develop tourism in the islands, by trying to pretend that the canaries should be the only place on the planet to have no such holiday home rental sector.
Reality will hit them as the court cases progress. There have to be some honest people in the canary/Spanish govt and legal system, perhaps even within tourismo,who will begin to realise how ridiculous it is for the canaries to continue to hold this absurd Alice in wonderland stance.
Plus the financial returns to the islands from annual permit revenue should not be ignored, to continue to do that is an affront to reason and commonsense .
This thread is now giving out good information (at least i think so) after all the back stabbing. Long may it continue.
Nelson when you look at it how you're looking at it I agree it doesn't make sense for owners renting their own properties all the time to sign up to a sole agent instead of mrs mop and handy Andy.....
However the tourist board aren't trying to group together individual renters they're trying to group together rental units to be marketed professionally by professionals in the tourist industry.
How are Expedia, Thomas cook , booking.com , late rooms going to market 250 apartments on one complex as easily as they can Presently?
Most tourists just want somewhere to stay and they want and demand an easy booking process - emailing 250 owners on a complex that they've decided they like is a lot more work than live booking via one central reservation system managed by the sole agent.
Your theories fall down because you haven't yet realised that the most important person in all of this is the client and their overall experience - not the property owner .
This thread is now giving out good information (at least i think so) after all the back stabbing. Long may it continue.
Thats what was trying to do when asked the question if its legal or not for owners on touristic complexes and the apartment is registered with the licence holder to do there own advertising and bookings loaded says its not legal but this does happen on a number off complexes. The system falls down when you have a bad agent poor returns no one in there right mind going to invest large sums to buy a apartment to get returns off 4000 euros a year be dictated to when you can stay in your own apartment. They don,t seem to have went after people doing there own bookings on the touristic complexes no one on our complex has as far as i know (unless someone knows better) as long as the apartment was registered they seemed happy when they did there inspection.
Andy you're not suggesting anything that isn't already happening. We even give owners a 10% commission for passing us clients when their own apartment is booked....
No one is disqualifying anyone - only it appears you were suggesting that anyone is capable of doing what travel agents do (better than travel agents even?)..... Just because you have bought an apartment it doesn't make you a genius in marketing and customer service over night - many owners successfully manage it and are good at it, but for every owner we have who does a good job of their own bookings there are 5 who make a right mess of things.
I know you do as does Oasis, but perhaps this should be a mandatory option on all touristic complexes? Otherwise we have a bit of "pot luck" going on with regards to where you buy.
It shouldn't really matter to you if their marketing is naff - just means they won´t send you so many bookings themselves so you will fill it for them. Or maybe the sole agent has first choice on booking your apartment so long as he can fill it himself without resorting to the tour operator (and the extra deductions from what the owner receives.)
So far as doing what travel agents do, I wasn't really thinking along those lines, more that lots of owners have historically put their own clients in to their own apartments and managed OK. Some will use an agent as well, others want completely hands free and will only use an agent.
If the agent on site is just rubbish at his job and cannot get you the bookings, surely all owners should be able to find their own clients (whether using a web site, word of mouth, friends, work colleagues or whatever) and pass them to the agent to fill their apartment - without falling foul of a law and incurring a gigantic fine. Otherwise you end up with a scenario whereby your apartment is sat empty because the agent is rubbish and you have had to give up 30 odd weeks of historical bookings because the agent wont work with you and let you send him your clients - even though he would make more money this way than by dealing with a tour operator.
I just wonder - given how obvious it seems - whether any of this is actually being discussed by the powers that be....
Nelson when you look at it how you're looking at it I agree it doesn't make sense for owners renting their own properties all the time to sign up to a sole agent instead of mrs mop and handy Andy.....
However the tourist board aren't trying to group together individual renters they're trying to group together rental units to be marketed professionally by professionals in the tourist industry.
How are Expedia, Thomas cook , booking.com , late rooms going to market 250 apartments on one complex as easily as they can Presently?
Most tourists just want somewhere to stay and they want and demand an easy booking process - emailing 250 owners on a complex that they've decided they like is a lot more work than live booking via one central reservation system managed by the sole agent.
dont be silly calling private apartment cleaners/ managers mrs mop, the private renting sector has many profesional and responsible people who undertake this work. My current canarian couple of several years, who replaced a british firm due to poor cleaning, are people of the highest standard, reliable, hardworking and quite professional in all they do for us and our clients. When you rent a holiday home 2000 miles away you need the best people you can for apartment management, I can tell you with my current people we are very much blessed.
Thats the bottom line loaded, its normal all around the world, we rent our holiday home, its a small apartment, its not a hotel and we provide all that is needed for guests to travel to it and enjoy their stay.
This is the reality tourismo have to accept, they need to switch on their computers , go to the owners renting sites, take a deep breath and start focusing on change , evolution and reality.
They have to accept this reality, tear up their fines, get out a fresh sheet of paper and start looking at making this normal , modern and growing activity properly.
Their economy and people need them to do this and fast, commonsense and reason demand it.
dont be silly calling private apartment cleaners/ managers mrs mop, the private renting sector has many profesional and responsible people who undertake this work. My current canarian couple of several years, who replaced a british firm due to poor cleaning, are people of the highest standard, reliable, hardworking and quite professional in all they do for us and our clients. When you rent a holiday home 2000 miles away you need the best people you can for apartment management, I can tell you with my current people we are very much blessed.
Thats the bottom line loaded, its normal all around the world, we rent our holiday home, its a small apartment, its not a hotel and we provide all that is needed for guests to travel to it and enjoy their stay.
This is the reality tourismo have to accept, they need to switch on their computers , go to the owners renting sites, take a deep breath and start focusing on change , evolution and reality.
They have to accept this reality, tear up their fines, get out a fresh sheet of paper and start looking at making this normal , modern and growing activity properly.
Their economy and people need them to do this and fast, commonsense and reason demand it.
I don't consider your plan as moving with the times, if anything it's going backwards - owners won't ever be able to set up online booking systems with live availability that's guaranteed correct - this can be done on touristic complexes with one agent , by doing this we are bookable 24/7 and the client doesn't need to be emailing and calling , waiting for replies etc. it's instant.
When I get to work in the mornings there's bookings in the inbox, payment taken, confirmation sent - before I even say good morning to anyone.
This can't be done using the private rental system.
Because of this we got several owners 45 weeks bookings last year and as a rule of thumb 40 for all owners.
I don't consider your plan as moving with the times, if anything it's going backwards - owners won't ever be able to set up online booking systems with live availability that's guaranteed correct - this can be done on touristic complexes with one agent , by doing this we are bookable 24/7 and the client doesn't need to be emailing and calling , waiting for replies etc. it's instant.
When I get to work in the mornings there's bookings in the inbox, payment taken, confirmation sent - before I even say good morning to anyone.
This can't be done using the private rental system.
Because of this we got several owners 45 weeks bookings last year and as a rule of thumb 40 for all owners.
You do a good job , no denying it, but it's perfectly normal around this planet of ours for individuals to rent out their holiday homes on their own .
It is an activity that is uncontroversial , it should not be attacked and illegal in the Canary Islands .
That's the simple truth
You do a good job , no denying it, but it's perfectly normal around this planet of ours for individuals to rent out their holiday homes on their own .
It is an activity that is uncontroversial , it should not be attacked and illegal in the Canary Islands .
That's the simple truth
But when it is an activity which accounts for some 30 odd percent of your GDP there is very good reason for a Government to insist there is some form of contol over the industry.
In particular, the control that the Canarian Government wishes is to do what it can to Guarantee a certain level of standards and quality of the touristic offer. All has been well discussed in the past, but starts with the requirement to have on-site security and care for the visitors, with central points of contact where keys are held, guests are shown to their accomodation and somebody is available to deal with problems around the clock. Add to this the general issue of safety - such as lifeguards supervising pools, general repairs and checks at every level and there being a central point of contact not only for the guests but a single point of contact for Tourist operators and for that matter the Government, who can be held to account should anything go wrong.
As I understand it, the revisions being discussed to the law bring in further requirements for modernising and bringing up to date tourist accomodation, some of which is 30 odd years old now.
When it is your bread and butter industry you simply cannot afford to risk a single bad apple bring down the reputation of an entire industry. The resources required to set up a team charged with the inspection of every single apartment on all of the islands is an impossible task. It is impracticable and fraught with the opportunity for Captain Corruption to pop in. It will be difficult enough getting the agents for each complex to provide proof of and enforcement of regulations, let alone tens of thousands of individual owners spread across the world.
Don't forget that these tiny islands handle 12 million tourists a year, whereas Portugal - for want of an example, as a country deals with arounf 6 million.
You argue, and not incorrectly to a degree, that the Canaries are virtually unique in their implimentation of direct legislation aimed at controlling their tourist industry, but don't forget that the Canaries are essentially unique in the world in terms of the climate and the subsequent attraction of these islands year round - after all, I presume thats what brought you here in the first place.
You really cannot blame the Government, nor it's people for supporting them, in their quest to do everything they possibly can to protect themselves against the problems they foresee. Indeed, at the end of the day, they have, so far at least, the understanding and more importantly support of the rest of Europe for their regulations. That said, they may risk their special status and support if they were tp take it too far and if they were to consider possible evictions of residents living in tourist accomodation - as some of the translations of the draft texts of the revisions being discussed at the moment seem to suggest, then that is a very different ball-game. Somehow I feel common sense will prevail - allowing villas for example to be brought into the touristic offer, the enforced upgrading of elderly accomodation and so on, but stopping well short of mass evictions.
But when it is an activity which accounts for some 30 odd percent of your GDP there is very good reason for a Government to insist there is some form of contol over the industry.
In particular, the control that the Canarian Government wishes is to do what it can to Guarantee a certain level of standards and quality of the touristic offer. All has been well discussed in the past, but starts with the requirement to have on-site security and care for the visitors, with central points of contact where keys are held, guests are shown to their accomodation and somebody is available to deal with problems around the clock. Add to this the general issue of safety - such as lifeguards supervising pools, general repairs and checks at every level and there being a central point of contact not only for the guests but a single point of contact for Tourist operators and for that matter the Government, who can be held to account should anything go wrong.
As I understand it, the revisions being discussed to the law bring in further requirements for modernising and bringing up to date tourist accomodation, some of which is 30 odd years old now.
When it is your bread and butter industry you simply cannot afford to risk a single bad apple bring down the reputation of an entire industry. The resources required to set up a team charged with the inspection of every single apartment on all of the islands is an impossible task. It is impracticable and fraught with the opportunity for Captain Corruption to pop in. It will be difficult enough getting the agents for each complex to provide proof of and enforcement of regulations, let alone tens of thousands of individual owners spread across the world.
Don't forget that these tiny islands handle 12 million tourists a year, whereas Portugal - for want of an example, as a country deals with arounf 6 million.
You argue, and not incorrectly to a degree, that the Canaries are virtually unique in their implimentation of direct legislation aimed at controlling their tourist industry, but don't forget that the Canaries are essentially unique in the world in terms of the climate and the subsequent attraction of these islands year round - after all, I presume thats what brought you here in the first place.
You really cannot blame the Government, nor it's people for supporting them, in their quest to do everything they possibly can to protect themselves against the problems they foresee. Indeed, at the end of the day, they have, so far at least, the understanding and more importantly support of the rest of Europe for their regulations. That said, they may risk their special status and support if they were tp take it too far and if they were to consider possible evictions of residents living in tourist accomodation - as some of the translations of the draft texts of the revisions being discussed at the moment seem to suggest, then that is a very different ball-game. Somehow I feel common sense will prevail - allowing villas for example to be brought into the touristic offer, the enforced upgrading of elderly accomodation and so on, but stopping well short of mass evictions.
Sorry but the fact of tourism being 30 per cent of GDP does not justify ignoring the holiday letting Internet sites, tourismo should accept and encourage this new aspect of tourist choice.
Many sole agent complexs are sub standard, we know of cases on this thread of owners not being taken on by sole agents for fear of their high standard returned apartment causing arguments with customers.
What goes for villas goes for apartments, there should be no problem with legal private renting, it is normal and uncontroversial the world over, and here in the canaries could be an important new tax source
I can see why Muppet would say that the government wish to "take control" of the industry. In reality, they should never have let it get to this stage and then suddenly clamp down on apartment owners.
My concerns are with who they give the control to when they get it. There are good and bad agents. There should only be good but it would appear that an agent can do as he wishes.
We've seen on here that people can fall out over the simplest of things. If an owner falls out with an agent he runs the risk of being booted off the list of apartments to be rented. That in turn could mean major financial problems for the owner. That's a lot of power for an agent to have.
I think all sites should have an agent but, as has been suggested, any bookings should be steered via their office.
The holidaymaker then gets the apartment that they wanted in the first place. That is customer satisfaction.
It's hard to please everyone. Paloma Beach is a well run, nice place to stay but I bet Loaded still gets his fair share of moaners. I would guess that most of Nelson's punters are repeats year in year out. They know what they're getting into and so very few complaints arise. Unfortunately the law says that has to change but with the right people it can still work.
Nelson's problem is who will take the job on? If the Loaded's of the world are already too busy to do it then I'm afraid it's "Dial K for Konrad" time. These illegal letters need help rather than villification.
Should we be concentrating on how it is instead of how one thinks it should be?
Because that should be done directly with the Tourist board expressing your opinion.
You'd have more luck doing so than repeating the same thing in every post on an Internet forum.
It's just opinions 9PLUS.........we all have them...yours is in the post above this one...:laugh:
I can see why Muppet would say that the government wish to "take control" of the industry. In reality, they should never have let it get to this stage and then suddenly clamp down on apartment owners.
My concerns are with who they give the control to when they get it. There are good and bad agents. There should only be good but it would appear that an agent can do as he wishes.
We've seen on here that people can fall out over the simplest of things. If an owner falls out with an agent he runs the risk of being booted off the list of apartments to be rented. That in turn could mean major financial problems for the owner. That's a lot of power for an agent to have.
I think all sites should have an agent but, as has been suggested, any bookings should be steered via their office.
The holidaymaker then gets the apartment that they wanted in the first place. That is customer satisfaction.
It's hard to please everyone. Paloma Beach is a well run, nice place to stay but I bet Loaded still gets his fair share of moaners. I would guess that most of Nelson's punters are repeats year in year out. They know what they're getting into and so very few complaints arise. Unfortunately the law says that has to change but with the right people it can still work.
Nelson's problem is who will take the job on? If the Loaded's of the world are already too busy to do it then I'm afraid it's "Dial K for Konrad" time. These illegal letters need help rather than villification.
Our moaners are generally the winter sun types who "don't get morning sun" or are missing a cheese grater / egg slicer / garlic crusher / bigger casserole dish......
There is a demand by some clients to book specific apartments (which we don't do) but they are the minority in the brand scheme of things. There are much more important parts to the process than that for the vast majority.
The illegal letters do need help but in my experience its like banging your head against a brick wall. I tried to help a complex in Fanabe but came up against Nelson after Nelson after Nelson. Unfortunately they'd all been doing their own thing with their own mrs mop for so long that they were never going to change . Waste of time
Sorry but the fact of tourism being 30 per cent of GDP does not justify ignoring the holiday letting Internet sites, tourismo should accept and encourage this new aspect of tourist choice.
Many sole agent complexs are sub standard, we know of cases on this thread of owners not being taken on by sole agents for fear of their high standard returned apartment causing arguments with customers.
What goes for villas goes for apartments, there should be no problem with legal private renting, it is normal and uncontroversial the world over, and here in the canaries could be an important new tax source
Sorry, but this where I disagree. The Canaries are not unique in the world, but because of their circumstances are in a small handful of destinations where tourism is critically important to them. This has been recognised by both the National and International administrations to which they are affiliated (Spain and the EU), and have been allowed by both to impliment legislation to protect themselves. The letting of holiday homes to potential tourists here is an entirely different ball-game to letting a holiday apartment in, for example, Skegness.
As part of Europe, where the vast majority of its tourism comes from, one of the problems the islands have faced in recent years stems from existing rules of the EU which allows freedom of movement of citizens between member states. The relative affluence of citizens from the nothern countries created a situation whereby thousands (Brits and Germans primarily) bought themselves holiday homes here, which whilst in principle is perfectly OK but, as we have been discussing on here for what seems like forever, the local administration has been permitted in law to legislate to protect itself.
If such legislation seems protectionist to some, then the reality is that it probably is for those who have done well out of letting their holiday homes to others. But the fact remains that the Government not only have a right to legislate on how potential visitors are treated, they have a duty to ensure safety and quality are maintained. It happens that, with the relatively limited resource available the authorities have chosen to adopt a system where a single point of contact is established between a community of owners of holiday homes and the regulators of the industry - this is far from an unusual way of regulating an industry - quite the normal.
I think we have all agreed that there are clearly some good and some bad points of contact (agents), but at least they are visible and accessible to owners, authorities and the all important tourist. You have gone to great lengths to describe what you do for your tourists, and by the sounds of it they are lucky to have you as their landlord, but for every great Nelson how many not so great others are there? Truth is, nobody really knows, or will ever know until after a catastrophic event, likely to tarnish the industry, occurs.
As humans, none of us can really be trusted to provide a service unless there are rules and standards and penalties to keep us in check. If there is an easy option we will take it - as indeed you do in certain areas of your affairs.
What you should be doing is taking advice, not on how to beat the Government, because that is clearly not going to happen, but advice on how the revision of the laws currently being discussed, might incorporate safeguards for owners who are not being well served by their agents.
I wont even mention the tax situation (!) ........
Sorry, but this where I disagree. The Canaries are not unique in the world, but because of their circumstances are in a small handful of destinations where tourism is critically important to them. This has been recognised by both the National and International administrations to which they are affiliated (Spain and the EU), and have been allowed by both to impliment legislation to protect themselves. The letting of holiday homes to potential tourists here is an entirely different ball-game to letting a holiday apartment in, for example, Skegness.
As part of Europe, where the vast majority of its tourism comes from, one of the problems the islands have faced in recent years stems from existing rules of the EU which allows freedom of movement of citizens between member states. The relative affluence of citizens from the nothern countries created a situation whereby thousands (Brits and Germans primarily) bought themselves holiday homes here, which whilst in principle is perfectly OK but, as we have been discussing on here for what seems like forever, the local administration has been permitted in law to legislate to protect itself.
If such legislation seems protectionist to some, then the reality is that it probably is for those who have done well out of letting their holiday homes to others. But the fact remains that the Government not only have a right to legislate on how potential visitors are treated, they have a duty to ensure safety and quality are maintained. It happens that, with the relatively limited resource available the authorities have chosen to adopt a system where a single point of contact is established between a community of owners of holiday homes and the regulators of the industry - this is far from an unusual way of regulating an industry - quite the normal.
I think we have all agreed that there are clearly some good and some bad points of contact (agents), but at least they are visible and accessible to owners, authorities and the all important tourist. You have gone to great lengths to describe what you do for your tourists, and by the sounds of it they are lucky to have you as their landlord, but for every great Nelson how many not so great others are there? Truth is, nobody really knows, or will ever know until after a catastrophic event, likely to tarnish the industry, occurs.
As humans, none of us can really be trusted to provide a service unless there are rules and standards and penalties to keep us in check. If there is an easy option we will take it - as indeed you do in certain areas of your affairs.
What you should be doing is taking advice, not on how to beat the Government, because that is clearly not going to happen, but advice on how the revision of the laws currently being discussed, might incorporate safeguards for owners who are not being well served by their agents.
I wont even mention the tax situation (!) ........
Back to Alice in wonderland and the emporers new clothes. Keep talking about sole agency as if its normal and everyone falls into the trap of believing it .
As for customer protection and standards , it seems to me that the agent run places are generally way behind the private ones in overall comfort level. There are many agent run places that let the industry down, the reality is private renters are way ahead in respect of customer satisfaction, tourismo can improve standards in the islands by legalising them, no fear in reality that standards would suffer.
Maybe tourismo should take a proper look at the private renting industry and the Internet sites before jumping in with their irrational crackdown
nelson Sole Agents are perfectly normal in the Canary Islands.
Back to Alice in wonderland and the emporers new clothes. Keep talking about sole agency as if its normal and everyone falls into the trap of believing it .
As for customer protection and standards , it seems to me that the agent run places are generally way behind the private ones in overall comfort level. There are many agent run places that let the industry down, the reality is private renters are way ahead in respect of customer satisfaction, tourismo can improve standards in the islands by legalising them, no fear in reality that standards would suffer.
Maybe tourismo should take a proper look at the private renting industry and the Internet sites before jumping in with their irrational crackdown
Why oh why do you not see the realities though.
The Canarian Government simply do not agree with your approach - that is their view and they will stick with it with the backing of the European courts too if necessary - they have made that quite clear.
Equally there are issues (serious ones in some cases) about some agents and the way they operate - but you will never change this from the outside looking in and quoting Lewis Caroll in the courts.
Altamira
03-02-2013, 11:07
Private Tourist Apartment Many owners have excellent apartments and they have a long and full list of regular clients who choose to book that specific apartment. They would be reluctant to use a sole agent because they do not normally offer a specific apartment, in these cases an owner or the tourist does not want or need a sole agent.
Sole Agent If an owner is going to be forced to hand over their apartment to a sole agent and if the sole agent is going to be forced to take it on, then what happens if the sole agent is unable to maintain a reasonable level of bookings? Will the sole agent then reduce or refuse to pay the amount due to the community of apartment owners, or would they go bust.
Sole Agent If an owner is going to be forced to hand over their apartment to a sole agent and if the sole agent is going to be forced to take it on, then what happens if the sole agent is unable to maintain a reasonable level of bookings? Will the sole agent then reduce or refuse to pay the amount due to the community of apartment owners, or would they go bust.
Firstly why would the sole agent be paying anything to the community of owners? The contract is with the individual owners for the use of their properties.
Obviously if the sole agent cannot fill the apartments then they will go bust as they won't be making any money.
This is the same as if you and I took on a pub and were paying the landlord of the pub rent, then if we mess things up / ecconomy goes t.its up - and no one wants to drink in our pub then what happens???????? Our pub would close or we'd sell the business to someone else, or if the landlord was paid rent based on our earnings he'd replace us.
How is the sole agent thing any different?
duncan-6
03-02-2013, 11:19
At the end of the day, the nelson's of Tenerife have made a lot of dosh, while submitting nothing to the CANARIAN govt in income tax, I appreciate CIM's view on how many canarians themselves have dodged paying themselves, but now in 2013, when Spain and even more so the canaries are skint, they have every perfect legal right to implement whatever changes they want,..it is their country, their Islands, and if you dont like it,..sell up and go.
Long live Tenerife.
t
Continuing the pub analagy, here is the heirarchy:
1. Owner of the building where pub is located : landlord
2. Publican pays rent to landlord to exploit the building (sell beer).
3. Staff employed by publican to serve customers.
4. Customers attend premises and consume drinks / food etc.
That is the same as sole agents in apartments only its:
1. Owner of apartment leasing their apartment.
2. Sole Agent - exploits the property and pays owner money for this.
3. Staff help sole agent exploit property.
4. Customers use the accommodation.
Altamira
03-02-2013, 11:39
Firstly why would the sole agent be paying anything to the community of owners? The contract is with the individual owners for the use of their properties. Obviously if the sole agent cannot fill the apartments then they will go bust as they won't be making any money.
The payment to the community was relating to the community charges, but I meant for it to also include the individual payments to the apartment owners within that community/complex. I have been running businesses for a very long time and I normally decide who I am doing business with. It is unnatural to be forced into doing business with someone except via some form of property grab, exploitation or extortion.
junglejim
03-02-2013, 11:43
Nice analogy on the pub , you forgot to mention the noisy customers, fighting outside , sick in street types that upset the peaceful neighbours .
As long as you can control and vet who uses it , that shouldn't happen .....
As long as those who let and use the letting agent pay for all the necessary compliance and maintenance for a Touristic Licence, I don't have a problem , I don't wish to subsidise somebody else's business at no benefit to me !
Get used to this in the Canary Islands
The payment to the community was relating to the community charges, but I meant for it to also include the individual payments to the apartment owners within that community/complex. I have been running businesses for a very long time and I normally decide who I am doing business with. It is unnatural to be forced into doing business with someone except via some form of property grab, exploitation or extortion.
So when you're going into business and decided who you're working with have you ever:
Taken on a franchise (mcdonalds maybe?) and then complained that Ronald is a money grabbing so and so?
These owners have a choice who they work with, they can sell and buy on a complex where someone they prefer operates, or they can attempt to change the sole agent by finding a better one.
If you're trying to make money by renting your apartment to tourist in the canaries you're piggy backing on the islands primary economy and I think people who own property to rent it out need to think of their property as less of a "second home" and more of an "investment property".
If you CHOOSE or CHOSE to invest in the tourist industry you have to be prepared that you don't get to dictate how everything works, on the contrary.
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Nice analogy on the pub , you forgot to mention the noisy customers, fighting outside , sick in street types that upset the peaceful neighbours .
As long as you can control and vet who uses it , that shouldn't happen .....
As long as those who let and use the letting agent pay for all the necessary compliance and maintenance for a Touristic Licence, I don't have a problem , I don't wish to subsidise somebody else's business at no benefit to me !
You can't vet clients..... that discrimination, a sole agent can't do it any more than a private owner can.
Altamira
03-02-2013, 12:17
So when you're going into business and decided who you're working with have you ever:
Taken on a franchise (mcdonalds maybe?) and then complained that Ronald is a money grabbing so and so?
These owners have a choice who they work with, they can sell and buy on a complex where someone they prefer operates, or they can attempt to change the sole agent by finding a better one.
If you're trying to make money by renting your apartment to tourist in the canaries you're piggy backing on the islands primary economy and I think people who own property to rent it out need to think of their property as less of a "second home" and more of an "investment property".
If you CHOOSE or CHOSE to invest in the tourist industry you have to be prepared that you don't get to dictate how everything works, on the contrary.
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You can't vet clients..... that discrimination, a sole agent can't do it any more than a private owner can.
Business I have always been free to run my own business, never any form of franchise.
Sole Agent Choice It appears that on some complexes there is very little choice who to deal with.
Tourist Apartment Investment Values I do not rent out my apartment, however I am very concerned that the selling of an apartment within a tourist complex has become a lot more difficult, this is mainly due to the enforcement of the 1995 tourist law, as it allows a business to exploit the investor.
Business I have always been free to run my own business, never any form of franchise.
Sole Agent Choice It appears that on some complexes there is very little choice who to deal with.
Tourist Apartment Investment Values I do not rent out my apartment, however I am very concerned that the selling of an apartment within a tourist complex has become a lot more difficult, this is mainly due to the enforcement of the 1995 tourist law, as it allows a business to exploit the investor.
you have always been free to run your business because you CHOSE not to involve yourself with a business where you are reliant on someone else.
There is little choice I agree.
Why are you concerned? the demand for rentable investment property is very high. You should get a good price for your property.
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It's not all fun and games for the sole agent you know, although we are lucky and have a very good relationship with most of our owners we have to put up with a lot of complete tools as well - we don't get to pick who buys on here unfortunately!
junglejim
03-02-2013, 12:28
You can vet , no pets,no smokers, no children , no large groups ... I know of many people who have been refused bookings because of their previous behaviour , even long term rentals have been excluded for this.
same as a bar can refuse service !
a quick look on Clear Blue Skies website reveals 1 beds on there for sale from between 250,000-300,000 !!! thats very high for a 1 bed apartment
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You can vet , no pets,no smokers, no children , no large groups ... I know of many people who have been refused bookings because of their previous behaviour , even long term rentals have been excluded for this.
same as a bar can refuse service !
No you can't. Yes you can refuse entry for PREVIOÜS behaviour but you can't refuse people entry to accommodation because they smoke!!!!! You can tell them that smoking is not allowed in the property but you can't refuse them entry because of thier habit!
No large groups? You can't stop that either! Even if you legally could tell someone on the phone that you don't want their group of 20 to book, how do you stop them all calling individually?
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what next? no gays? no blacks?
explain how you can recieve a booking by a reservation system and then tell them that salthough they booked you don't like morocons staying in your apartment........
I like it because i know a few nice sole agents and i get all the electrical repairs and maintenance.
I only have to deal with one person, it is a greatttttttttness
I like
X
Change will come, and sooner than people think. The old Europe challenge is history, things have changed, we live in the e commerce revolution age, holiday home renting is normal , uncontroversial and believe me here to stay.
The daft law was ignored for 15 years, this silly irrational attempt to enforce it will seal its fate.
You have to remember complexs like ours have managed fine in the real world of individual renting for many years.
Tourismo is constitutionally bound to take tourism forward in the real world, they will have to face reality soon, as you all will
Altamira
03-02-2013, 13:11
Why are you concerned? the demand for rentable investment property is very high. You should get a good price for your property.
Drop in Values Many properties are valued on their potential rental income. Altamira private rental values 20,000 euros per year and sole agent rental value 5,000 per year. I am sure you can see that this amounts to a drop of around 75% in rental vales and this does obviously affect the resale value of these properties.
a quick look on Clear Blue Skies website reveals 1 beds on there for sale from between 250,000-300,000 !!! thats very high for a 1 bed apartment
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No you can't. Yes you can refuse entry for PREVIOÜS behaviour but you can't refuse people entry to accommodation because they smoke!!!!! You can tell them that smoking is not allowed in the property but you can't refuse them entry because of thier habit!
No large groups? You can't stop that either! Even if you legally could tell someone on the phone that you don't want their group of 20 to book, how do you stop them all calling individually?
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what next? no gays? no blacks?
explain how you can recieve a booking by a reservation system and then tell them that salthough they booked you don't like morocons staying in your apartment........
Yes ... apartments in Altamira are up for sale for upto 300,000€ .... this is because of their position, the stunning pool area and views and the high standard of accommodation. HOWEVER, anyone looking to buy with an eye to renting out any weeks they do not wish to use themselves, come across the MASSIVE stumbling block that is our sole agent. Konrad offers a mere 4,800€ per year (a pathetic return on anyone looking at their 300,000€ property as an "investment") plus only allows owners the use of their apartment four weeks of the year (to be taken at the quietest times) plus any high quality furniture or appliances etc have to be removed to bring the apartment down to the standard of the agent's other apartments!!!!!!!! Konrad was the original promoter/builder of the complex and is so entrenched in the place that it appears virtually impossible to remove him. So sell you say ............... not a very attractive prospect for anyone not able to afford leaving their place empty for most of the year!
I understand that this is the law. I understand that there is virtually nothing that can be done about it. I also understand that this is a terrible waste. Many owners would happily register their individual property with the tourist board, have annual visits to check standards, pay for this registration, pay tax on their income, alert the community paid reception staff of all bookings etc etc. The community paid reception staff could inform the tourist board of any information they require, plus alert owners, or their local representative of any problems or concerns.
The revenue that this would generate in terms of registration fees and tax as well as the obvious boost to the revenues of businesses on the island would far outweigh the revenue that the likes of the Konrads of this world are contributing.
Many owners are just going underground. Not advertising on the internet ... just within the Uk via word of mouth, on notice boards in their home towns etc. Money changes hands in the Uk and they just keep their fingers crossed that they are not caught by inspectors knocking on their door.
If the tourist board put gave each of their inspectors an area to work, they could station themselves in receptions checking which apartments holiday makers are staying in ..... underground owners would soon be found out and would have to either register their property or suffer a fine. It could work very well for all concerned.
I have not contributed to this thread for sometime as I am resolved to the fact that this will never happen and there is no use bleating about the short sighted approach the govt is taking. The country needs a financial boost and they seem to be hitting one of their their best assets rather than merely regulating and promoting it. A few complexes like Loaded's work well under the system of sole agency .... but the majority don't.
Drop in Values Many properties are valued on their potential rental income. Altamira private rental values 20,000 euros per year and sole agent rental value 5,000 per year. I am sure you can see that this amounts to a drop of around 75% in rental vales and this does obviously affect the resale value of these properties.
not by the same amount trust me. that doesn't mean they will lose value it means they were over valued initially.
Altamira
03-02-2013, 13:29
not by the same amount trust me. that doesn't mean they will lose value it means they were over valued initially.
Values Altamira was not over valued initially, as it was built long before the 1995 tourist law, it is the recent enforcement of that law that is damaging the true value of these apartments.
Konrad offers a mere 4,800€ per year (a pathetic return on anyone looking at their 300,000€ property as an "investment") plus only allows owners the use of their apartment four weeks of the year (to be taken at the quietest times) plus any high quality furniture or appliances etc have to be removed to bring the apartment down to the standard of the agent's other apartments!!!!!!!! Konrad was the original promoter/builder of the complex and is so entrenched in the place that it appears virtually impossible to remove him.
How many apartments are there on Altamira and how many of these apartments are owned by Kurt Konrad?
Values Altamira was not over valued initially, as it was built long before the 1995 tourist law, it is the recent enforcement of that law that is damaging the true value of these apartments.
1-2 bed Apartment worth €300,000 not over valued?
Altamira
03-02-2013, 13:50
1-2 bed Apartment worth €300,000 not over valued?
Altamira is well located with spectacular views etc. and because of these facts the apartments maintained a high resale value, however the values were bolstered by the rental demand. I should add that there are some Altamira 2 bedroom apartments that would expect to get between 500,000 euros an 1,000,000.
Altamira is well located with spectacular views etc. and because of these facts the apartments maintained a high resale value, however the values were bolstered by the rental demand. I should add that there are some Altamira 2 bedroom apartments that would expect to get between 500,000 euros an 1,000,000.
Cheers quite a nice complex i know where it is but a 2 bed no matter what you do with it on Altamira is well over valued at €1,000,000 those are silly boom prices for people that do not think for themselves.
You all seem to be missing the point. Properties in the Del Duque area do fetch a lot of money. The point is even if a one bedroom apt on this complex were to sell for only 150,000, being offered a return of 4,800 and being limited to being able to use the apt for 4 weeks a year makes it an unattractive prospect for investors.
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How many apartments are there on Altamira and how many of these apartments are owned by Kurt Konrad?
Altamira has 244 apartments. Kurt Konrad doesn't actually own the apartments but 41 are owned by a timeshare company ... ownder by Konrad. Plus he owns the reception area!
welshman
03-02-2013, 14:26
You all seem to be missing the point. Properties in the Del Duque area do fetch a lot of money. The point is even if a one bedroom apt on this complex were to sell for only 150,000, being offered a return of 4,800 and being limited to being able to use the apt for 4 weeks a year makes it an unattractive prospect for investors.
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Altamira has 244 apartments. Kurt Konrad doesn't actually own the apartments but 41 are owned by a timeshare company ... ownder by Konrad. Plus he owns the reception area!
Is that before tax or after !!!
Altamira has 244 apartments. Kurt Konrad doesn't actually own the apartments but 41 are owned by a timeshare company ... ownder by Konrad. Plus he owns the reception area!
I think the phrase is: he's got you by the short and curlies
Altamira has 244 apartments. Kurt Konrad doesn't actually own the apartments but 41 are owned by a timeshare company ... ownder by Konrad. Plus he owns the reception area!
So it is maybe difficult to get Kurt Korraad out, but absolutely not impossible.
Is that before tax or after !!!
Before tax.
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I think the phrase is: he's got you by the short and curlies
Absolutely!
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So it is maybe difficult to get Kurt Korraad out, but absolutely not impossible.
Not absolutely impossible no ..... the community president wants no involvement in any attempt to oust Konrad. A large number of owners do not rent out their places so are happy to have no turmoil. A lot of owners either are operating underground or and their heads in the sand. Most of the owners not wishing to operate illegally or via Konrad have their places up for sale!
To try to get owners motivated to put another agent in place is what has proved impossible!
junglejim
03-02-2013, 16:06
So it is maybe difficult to get Kurt Korraad out, but absolutely not impossible.
Kurt Konrad died 2 years ago , his son and family run the Empire now !
He was in a similiar position in our complex but lost his majority control - he still owns the reception and some ancillary storerooms but will not sell them??
Kurt Konrad died 2 years ago , his son and family run the Empire now !
He was in a similiar position in our complex but lost his majority control - he still owns the reception and some ancillary storerooms but will not sell them??
I can see why it might be difficult getting him out of where he is now JJ...:laugh:
bobbyrandall
03-02-2013, 16:26
I had a problem once with the Conrads, word got to Kurt, and I had to go to the office, Pueblo Canario it was, across the road from Banca March now...he had his staff in, including the directors....he blew his top with the staff involved, and the next day I collected a cheque that more than made up for my trouble.......credit where it is due...
Kurt Konrad died 2 years ago , his son and family run the Empire now !
He was in a similiar position in our complex but lost his majority control - he still owns the reception and some ancillary storerooms but will not sell them??
Sorry ..yes I realise he died but the company continues on unfortunately!
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I had a problem once with the Conrads, word got to Kurt, and I had to go to the office, Pueblo Canario it was, across the road from Banca March now...he had his staff in, including the directors....he blew his top with the staff involved, and the next day I collected a cheque that more than made up for my trouble.......credit where it is due...
Don't get me wrong ... The Konrad company works within the law and is doing nothing legally wrong.
Fivepence
03-02-2013, 19:04
Nearly 2½ hrs since the last post.
It's a long time-out for this thread. :lol:
Kurt Konrad died 2 years ago , his son and family run the Empire now !
He was in a similiar position in our complex but lost his majority control - he still owns the reception and some ancillary storerooms but will not sell them??
Do you mind me asking which complex was that and how you got rid of him? Do you now have another agent in place now?
junglejim
03-02-2013, 19:46
Do you mind me asking which complex was that and how you got rid of him? Do you now have another agent in place now?
PM sent Foz- long reply!
welshman
03-02-2013, 19:54
What is the answer there are good and bad it all boils down to what complex your on Loaded nice chap fair some one you can deal with. Apartment price on complex reasonable so safe bet.
Konrad Altimara 300,000 euros investment 4800 return no brainer Some one exploiting some one. The basic cost of control does not change very much from one complex to another subject to apartment No ,s so to give only 25% of open market cost seams a con. These apartments are unsaleable for owners with present sole agent.
If you need control you need pricing structure that equates to location property value and rental return value. I have been on Loaded site its costed to the quality of apartment and finish finish excellent. He probably pays owners accordingly.
Wish more people was of his thinking.
I wonder how many ( if any at all ) have sole agents with no ownership or links to ownership of the actual apartments they run. Does anyone know of such a complex ? Does it exist ?
junglejim
03-02-2013, 20:11
Konrad owns about 50 apartments in Panorama but has control of many more through leaseback giving him control of the complex - the ones he doesn´t own could in theory get together and oust him and his Sycophantic President Laurence as well !
I know of Sole Agents that don't own any property on "their" complex.
What is the answer there are good and bad it all boils down to what complex your on Loaded nice chap fair some one you can deal with. Apartment price on complex reasonable so safe bet.
Konrad Altimara 300,000 euros investment 4800 return no brainer Some one exploiting some one. The basic cost of control does not change very much from one complex to another subject to apartment No ,s so to give only 25% of open market cost seams a con. These apartments are unsaleable for owners with present sole agent.
If you need control you need pricing structure that equates to location property value and rental return value. I have been on Loaded site its costed to the quality of apartment and finish finish excellent. He probably pays owners accordingly.
Wish more people was of his thinking.
Thanks very much for the kind words !
I wonder how many ( if any at all ) have sole agents with no ownership or links to ownership of the actual apartments they run. Does anyone know of such a complex ? Does it exist ?
I think it's always better if the sole agent does own property - at least that proves they believe in their own product and aren't going to give up if things get tough. It makes you make things work.
A lot of owners either are operating underground or and their heads in the sand. Most of the owners not wishing to operate illegally or via Konrad have their places up for sale!
To try to get owners motivated to put another agent in place is what has proved impossible!
The enforcement of the law will probably help to remove your and other bad sole agents.
welshman
03-02-2013, 21:56
I think the best anyone can expect or achieve is that sole agent will survive. But clients will possibly have more imput as to how their apartment is marketed and what return they get. This will keep bothside of the fence happy, be legal and get a return.
Residential properties will never be released for rentalfeel sorry for the people that have been duped in buying since 1995 on new builds looking for rental return. They were built as residential only. The old touristic may come back into being with sole agent control if everyone can agree.
I cannot see Spain adopting the Portugal model, there is no reason why not as it does work but I don,t think so. I,m waiting for everything to settle to purchase for winter sun.
Hello,
Iam now hoping to return one last time to Tenerife South this April/May with my wife and her sister to perhaps enjoy some warm weather and good wine and food..In our past visits to Tenerife we always went down what is now called on this thread 'the illegal lettings' way.As I now want to return and be'legal' without the need of going down the First Choice,Thomson or Thomas Cook way along with rubbish apartments,dirty hotel rooms and what is known as 'all inclusive' that tells us all to eat and drink what they want to give us.
I have read most posts on this long lasting thread,and I have had a good laugh at what has been said,sadly some people seem to still rent the 'illegal way' but I dont.So I would be very happy for some good ideas of where I can rent a good apartment and be picked up and dropped off at the airport in a legal way without the need to pay the apartment in pounds sterling ! as well as being legal to stay in Tenerife for the duration of our holiday and having transport that is fully insured in case of any accidents.
I do hope that some of the persons that have kept this thread going so long will in fact give me a good reply,many thanks.
Hello,
Iam now hoping to return one last time to Tenerife South this April/May with my wife and her sister to perhaps enjoy some warm weather and good wine and food..In our past visits to Tenerife we always went down what is now called on this thread 'the illegal lettings' way.As I now want to return and be'legal' without the need of going down the First Choice,Thomson or Thomas Cook way along with rubbish apartments,dirty hotel rooms and what is known as 'all inclusive' that tells us all to eat and drink what they want to give us.
I have read most posts on this long lasting thread,and I have had a good laugh at what has been said,sadly some people seem to still rent the 'illegal way' but I dont.So I would be very happy for some good ideas of where I can rent a good apartment and be picked up and dropped off at the airport in a legal way without the need to pay the apartment in pounds sterling ! as well as being legal to stay in Tenerife for the duration of our holiday and having transport that is fully insured in case of any accidents.
I do hope that some of the persons that have kept this thread going so long will in fact give me a good reply,many thanks.
Transfers :
el mar services
Viajes urbis
Apartments in los cristianos
Royal palm (oasis management)
Paloma beach (shameless plug)
Cristian sur (Atlantic horizons)
Or why not go on booking.com and look on there ?
There is a demand by some clients to book specific apartments (which we don't do) but they are the minority in the brand scheme of things. There are much more important parts to the process than that for the vast majority.
Brilliant
So we have had all the reasons why Owners don't want sole agents, now we have the reason why Holiday makers should be opposed to them as well.
You don't let people choose the apartment they want? Really? What is this, Fawlty Towers?
If I am paying - I want to choose!!
Any thoughts had of booking Paloma Beach this year - and I had considered it - just went out of the window (South facing or North facing window, no doubt you would decide!!)
Does anyone know a date that we are likely to know the outcome of of the various problems relating to this illegal lettings thread. i.e will villas be allowed to let to turists, will people that own on a turistic site & live there, actually be fined, or hung drawn & quartered. Will the seemingly unworkable management company laws be revised. Sorry if a date has been mentioned, but I couldnt find it in this epic thread. P.S thanks to loaded & others for the various good info in the thread.
Brilliant
So we have had all the reasons why Owners don't want sole agents, now we have the reason why Holiday makers should be opposed to them as well.
You don't let people choose the apartment they want? Really? What is this, Fawlty Towers?
If I am paying - I want to choose!!
Any thoughts had of booking Paloma Beach this year - and I had considered it - just went out of the window (South facing or North facing window, no doubt you would decide!!)
Yes murph because at faulty towers and the Hilton you get to choose your room number....
Guests can make requests for south facing or whatever else they want and we get their requests 95% of the time, obviously the ones who booked earlier are given a higher importance when allocating the apartments.
Every client is told that requests aren't guaranteed and it's in our booking conditions - people still book and people still almost always get what they've asked for.
I'm really not at all bothered if you book or not, we already have a client staying who has a fridge thermometer checking the temperature, so I could do without anymore like that thanks anyway.....
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