View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
By not guaranteeing exact apartment numbers it gives us more flexibility to shuffle bookings around and gain maximum occupancy for the owners while still respecting clients "special request". If you guarantee a room number to a client and they've booked 1 week or 4 days next January , you end up basin the previous and following months bookings around that period.
Does anyone know a date that we are likely to know the outcome of of the various problems relating to this illegal lettings thread. i.e will villas be allowed to let to turists, will people that own on a turistic site & live there, actually be fined, or hung drawn & quartered. Will the seemingly unworkable management company laws be revised. Sorry if a date has been mentioned, but I couldnt find it in this epic thread. P.S thanks to loaded & others for the various good info in the thread.
Thanks danno.
The draft law will be agreed or ripped up in about may - it contains the part about using tourist apartments for residential use being punishable by death.
From what I've seen there aren't any other bits in it that affect the points you've raised.
For villa owners you need to wait until the moratorium is lifted and then there is already provisions in the existing laws to get your villa registered.
Cheers Loaded, so from your reply, am I right in thinking that you are not aware of any new legislation being voted on, in relation to existing management laws on turistic complexes? As you only mention about owners using the properties residentially & I thought that the system was being looked at in a broader sense. Thanks for getting back to me.
Cheers Loaded, so from your reply, am I right in thinking that you are not aware of any new legislation being voted on, in relation to existing management laws on turistic complexes? As you only mention about owners using the properties residentially & I thought that the system was being looked at in a broader sense. Thanks for getting back to me.
Doesn't look like it.
The residential use of tourist properties looks like part of the governments plans to "re-touristify" areas that residents have moved into.
This also means that it will be easier to catch owners who claim they aren't renting when they are. At the moment the burden of proof is with the inspector or person reporting the illegal let - most illegal let don't issue invoices with NIE numbers of the owners on it so its hard to prove anything is happening. This way you'd only have to prove they aren't letting - that's easy, a quick glance at the list of apartments registered gives you your proof.
Altamira
04-02-2013, 11:50
Doesn't look like it.
The residential use of tourist properties looks like part of the governments plans to "re-touristify" areas that residents have moved into.
This also means that it will be easier to catch owners who claim they aren't renting when they are. At the moment the burden of proof is with the inspector or person reporting the illegal let - most illegal let don't issue invoices with NIE numbers of the owners on it so its hard to prove anything is happening. This way you'd only have to prove they aren't letting - that's easy, a quick glance at the list of apartments registered gives you your proof.
Residential Use of Tourist Apartments With regards to your recent comments on residential use. I do hope your interpretation of the new proposed laws are wrong, but should it actually happen then I think you will find that it will be subjected to a considerable amount of protests and legal challenges. It would be seen by many as a form of property grab, exploitation and extortion by the tourist industry and their associated sole agents.
Residential Use of Tourist Apartments With regards to your recent comments on residential use. I do hope your interpretation of the new proposed laws are wrong, but should it actually happen then I think you will find that it will be subjected to a considerable amount of protests and legal challenges. It would be seen by many as a form of property grab, exploitation and extortion by the tourist industry and their associated sole agents.
No doubt about it
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wouldn't be the first time a government has expropriated people from their homes though would it?
I cant think of a law that has ever been proposed that could cause so much heartache for families going about their daily lives & paying taxes. Not to mention the huge number of court cases this would cause. Maggie thatchers pole tax springs to mind in terms of mass problems if it went ahead. Hopefully it will get dismissed as a stupid idea, or at least be given some interesting amendments. i.e owners not wishing to rent to turists on the scheme, being allowed X amount of time to sell their properties before the law is actually brought in.
Yes murph because at faulty towers and the Hilton you get to choose your room number....
Guests can make requests for south facing or whatever else they want and we get their requests 95% of the time, obviously the ones who booked earlier are given a higher importance when allocating the apartments.
Every client is told that requests aren't guaranteed and it's in our booking conditions - people still book and people still almost always get what they've asked for.
I'm really not at all bothered if you book or not, we already have a client staying who has a fridge thermometer checking the temperature, so I could do without anymore like that thanks anyway.....
Well I have certainly booked specific hotel rooms all over the world.
I have also booked specific apartments with some clearly more customer focussed organisations than yourselves - HG Hotels - Cristian sur / Tenerife Sur for one.
How very arrogant and unnecessarily rude about both me and another client! I hope the person ''bringing their thermometer'' is reading this and cancels!
Albatros
04-02-2013, 14:49
I'm really not at all bothered if you book or not, we already have a client staying who has a fridge thermometer checking the temperature, so I could do without anymore like that thanks anyway.....
Personally, I can't see what is wrong with someone checking their fridge temperature. Folk in the UK have just recently been advised to check their fridge and freezer temperatures. Fridge = +5C, Freezer = -18C. Seemingly many are working outside the safe storage parameters. I don't see it as slight on management. Perhaps each fridge should have a cheap and cheerful fridge thermometer included inside.
Altamira
04-02-2013, 15:24
I cant think of a law that has ever been proposed that could cause so much heartache for families going about their daily lives & paying taxes. Not to mention the huge number of court cases this would cause. Maggie thatchers pole tax springs to mind in terms of mass problems if it went ahead. Hopefully it will get dismissed as a stupid idea, or at least be given some interesting amendments. i.e owners not wishing to rent to turists on the scheme, being allowed X amount of time to sell their properties before the law is actually brought in.
Time to sell Tourist Apartments I know it is a bit difficult to understand the economics surrounding the resale markets, but if a detrimentally horrendous law is about to affect a property, then it will be very difficult to find an unsuspecting buyer. Your point about giving owners some time to sell their properties before the law is brought in, it may not help as potential buyers will be increasingly aware of the oncoming problems. I think the authorities would need to allow around 100 years before introducing this form of property grabbing extortion.
Time to sell Tourist Apartments I know it is a bit difficult to understand the economics surrounding the resale markets, but if a detrimentally horrendous law is about to affect a property, then it will be very difficult to find an unsuspecting buyer. Your point about giving owners some time to sell their properties before the law is brought in, it may not help as potential buyers will be increasingly aware of the oncoming problems. I think the authorities would need to allow around 100 years before introducing this form of property grabbing extortion.
I think the spanish gov.are waiting for property prices to fall especially within the
touristic sector they know the vast percentage are 2/3rd.properties of foreign owners
the only way to kick start the market of which they get their 6-10 percent property tax
is if prices drop which will encourage new buyers who are waiting in the wings right now
russians etc. its all part of the big picture!!
Well I have certainly booked specific hotel rooms all over the world.
I have also booked specific apartments with some clearly more customer focussed organisations than yourselves - HG Hotels - Cristian sur / Tenerife Sur for one.
How very arrogant and unnecessarily rude about both me and another client! I hope the person ''bringing their thermometer'' is reading this and cancels!
I'm rude? you've just likened my business to Faulty towers totally unnecessarily, totally unfounded, totally untrue and totally uncalled for.
I too have stayed in hotels all around the world, London, Paris, Glasgow, Barcelona, New York and many other places - it is not normal practice to specifiy a room number.
If you think I'd be remotely interested in someone as rude as you not coming to stay in our apartments you can think again - you'd be doing me a favour by booking somewhere else.
Jog on.
Albatros
04-02-2013, 15:44
Dont feed the Troll
X
And the troll is?
Altamira
04-02-2013, 15:58
I guess supply & demand will effect the resale value & therefore prospectors would gobble up the cheaper properties. But the alternative could be many families that may be living from hand to mouth in these apartments being hit with immediate large fines & no way to pay them, with the debt being put against the house & all the nonsense that goes along with this kind of thing. i.e mainly the lawyers & fat cats getter richer & the poor getting poorer. One could argue that the families should not be living there in the 1st place, but its never that black & white as to how they ended up in that situation, it could be for a number of reasons & if a law has been ignored by so many for so long, then it almost gets taken for granted & everybody tends to do it. How many people used their mobile phones in the car in the uk without a headset until fines started being imposed. Dodgy analogy but you get my drift.
Residential Use of Tourist Apartments When many tourist apartments were sold, the buyers were told that they could use them as a form of residence or rent them out privately. It was only after the 1995 tourist law was it stated that the rentals should now be arranged via a sole agent. Now every well informed tourist apartment owner is awaiting the outcome of the proposed new tourist law, the big issues are surrounding the wording that may badly affect the future residential use.
Residential Use of Tourist Apartments When many tourist apartments were sold, the buyers were told that they could use them as a form of residence or rent them out privately. It was only after the 1995 tourist law was it stated that the rentals should now be arranged via a sole agent. Now every well informed tourist apartment owner is awaiting the outcome of the proposed new tourist law, the big issues are surrounding the wording that may badly affect the future residential use.
however even prior to the 1995 law owners had to have their apartments registered with the tourist board but most never bothered.......
I'm rude? you've just likened my business to Faulty towers totally unnecessarily, totally unfounded, totally untrue and totally uncalled for.
I too have stayed in hotels all around the world, London, Paris, Glasgow, Barcelona, New York and many other places - it is not normal practice to specifiy a room number.
If you think I'd be remotely interested in someone as rude as you not coming to stay in our apartments you can think again - you'd be doing me a favour by booking somewhere else.
Jog on.
Ha Ha - You've got some front you!!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Just been reading that Spanish Tourism droppedby 11% during December
Altamira
04-02-2013, 16:27
however even prior to the 1995 law owners had to have their apartments registered with the tourist board but most never bothered....... 1995 Retrospective Tourist Law Yes, prior to 1995, I was aware that if an owner intended to rent out, then they should have a license. The problem is that the 1995 law is now enforcing itself on properties built before 1995, this must be seen to be a retrospective and unjust law, as when they were sold residential and private rentals were lawful. The 1995 law should therefore only apply to properties built after 1995.
I'm rude? you've just likened my business to Faulty towers totally unnecessarily, totally unfounded, totally untrue and totally uncalled for.
I too have stayed in hotels all around the world, London, Paris, Glasgow, Barcelona, New York and many other places - it is not normal practice to specifiy a room number.
If you think I'd be remotely interested in someone as rude as you not coming to stay in our apartments you can think again - you'd be doing me a favour by booking somewhere else.
Jog on.
What did you expect to see from a Torquay bedroom window.....
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I'm rude? you've just likened my business to Faulty towers totally unnecessarily, totally unfounded, totally untrue and totally uncalled for.
I too have stayed in hotels all around the world, London, Paris, Glasgow, Barcelona, New York and many other places - it is not normal practice to specifiy a room number.
If you think I'd be remotely interested in someone as rude as you not coming to stay in our apartments you can think again - you'd be doing me a favour by booking somewhere else.
Jog on.
What did you expect to see from a Torquay bedroom window.....
bonitatime
04-02-2013, 21:49
1995 Retrospective Tourist Law Yes, prior to 1995, I was aware that if an owner intended to rent out, then they should have a license. The problem is that the 1995 law is now enforcing itself on properties built before 1995, this must be seen to be a retrospective and unjust law, as when they were sold residential and private rentals were lawful. The 1995 law should therefore only apply to properties built after 1995.
Is this like I got my Driving license before drink Driving rules came in so I should be allowed to drink and drive.
There were problems with apartments letting so the Government legislates for it. Thats what happens when the duly elected government see problems.
Don't let the sun go down on me ohhhh don't let the sun go down
x
I'm rude? you've just likened my business to Faulty towers totally unnecessarily, totally unfounded, totally untrue and totally uncalled for.
I too have stayed in hotels all around the world, London, Paris, Glasgow, Barcelona, New York and many other places - it is not normal practice to specifiy a room number.
If you think I'd be remotely interested in someone as rude as you not coming to stay in our apartments you can think again - you'd be doing me a favour by booking somewhere else.
Jog on.
as often loaded you are missing a very simple yet important point. Private apartments are just that, individual properties, not actually hotels. Like on our complex customers chose to rent with the private owner that has the apartment that they personally prefer. It may be the location, pool view, internal fittings, sunny balcony etc. All these factors help them make up their mind which particular private owner they want to rent with.
You loaded are talking the tourismo alice in wonderland theory, as if it is natural that a complex full of private apartments should be run by a single monopoly agent, just like a hotel.
Small is beautiful, customers want a free choice, thats what the internet ads are all about, private holiday homes, not uniform take it or leave it hotels.
You do sound very Basil Falwty in your attitude, I know you are half joking, but at the end of the day the customer is king.
you should write a letter to the Government nelson
timmylish
05-02-2013, 03:29
Just been reading that Spanish Tourism droppedby 11% during December
Yes! Perhaps Spanish as opposed to Canarian or, in particular, Tenerife,s figures which, I understand, have held up over the last 3 months of the year compared to previous years. So who is right, or wrong?
seanocelt
05-02-2013, 03:57
This winter, I see more people here. They walk the beach, buy 1/2 pints for a euro but think its a pint......Dunno how they choose accom, but you try finding accom for friends and family for March......................................... look, after all our fights on here , illegal/ legal accom,.........it is is KILLING hotels. They have the power. (ultimately). Not only do they know how to fight, they will use their leverage. And thats where it all began. (1995)
as often loaded you are missing a very simple yet important point. Private apartments are just that, individual properties, not actually hotels. Like on our complex customers chose to rent with the private owner that has the apartment that they personally prefer. It may be the location, pool view, internal fittings, sunny balcony etc. All these factors help them make up their mind which particular private owner they want to rent with.
You loaded are talking the tourismo alice in wonderland theory, as if it is natural that a complex full of private apartments should be run by a single monopoly agent, just like a hotel.
Small is beautiful, customers want a free choice, thats what the internet ads are all about, private holiday homes, not uniform take it or leave it hotels.
You do sound very Basil Falwty in your attitude, I know you are half joking, but at the end of the day the customer is king.
Suggest you re read Murphs posts and then decide if its me or you who's missing the point on this .
And as for Alice in wonderland....... Again, check yourself on that - last I looked everything you are seeking is pie in the sky that you haven't even taken up with the authorities ....
We were over in January for a quick visit (back soon !) and have never seen so many people there.
I also understand the tourist inspectors were in Los Cristianos last week doing the rounds on some of the residential complexes.
We were over in January for a quick visit (back soon !) and have never seen so many people there.
I also understand the tourist inspectors were in Los Cristianos last week doing the rounds on some of the residential complexes.
I heard the same - rumour has it ; playa graciosa and parque tropical just behind us.
I heard the same - rumour has it ; playa graciosa and parque tropical just behind us.
and El Mirador
Yes! Perhaps Spanish as opposed to Canarian or, in particular, Tenerife,s figures which, I understand, have held up over the last 3 months of the year compared to previous years. So who is right, or wrong?
I was quoting from a currency exchange report commenting on the weakness of the pound/euro rate which is down 6% compared to this time last year and pondering the implications for southern european countries and their weak economies
this along with local inflation is bound to hit tourism from non euro countries
The clampdown continues......
junglejim
05-02-2013, 10:35
Canaries appear to be getting benefit from the issues that still exist in parts of North Africa/Egypt .A comment in Spanish Press show hotels are holding up well from Norther Europeans but private letting (Legal reported?) is down some 12% as is Spanish Nationals.
Other problems are the reported collapse in issued mortgages ,down over 30% on last year-I would imagine mainly due to economic climate but the letting issue here will have an impact as well .
I can´t believe how long the Cabildo is taking to revise and crystallise this new law -that´s been over 2 years since the crackdown began -talk about Nero fiddling whilst Rome burned !( Pun intended on the "Fiddling" too !)
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/turismo-bajo-35-ano-pasado-tras-excepcional-2011/
junglejim
05-02-2013, 11:29
The new law is being discussed in Cabildo today
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/excepciones-moratoria-solo-han-atraido-dos-hoteles-desde-2009/
Couple of points in article - 150,000 illegal "beds" - 1/4 of total available
- possibility of opening a "route" for Villas to be Touristic
So some movement .
Altamira
05-02-2013, 11:58
Is this like I got my Driving license before drink Driving rules came in so I should be allowed to drink and drive.
There were problems with apartments letting so the Government legislates for it. Thats what happens when the duly elected government see problems. I think you have forgotten that when they introduced drinking driving rules, they did not stop you using your car or stop you letting friends & family use it either, they just stopped you from behaving like a drunken idiot.
bonitatime
05-02-2013, 12:03
Part of what is being discussed is the possibility of Hotels with 4 And 5 stars being autorised not just 5 stars
bonitatime
05-02-2013, 12:04
I think you have forgotten that when they introduced drinking driving rules, they did not stop you using your car or stop you letting friends & family use it either, they just stopped you from behaving like a drunken idiot.
And this law doesnt stop you letting your apartments or using them it just controls how you do it. Something that has been tested up to the highest Europeans count.
And your point is???
Altamira
05-02-2013, 12:18
And this law doesnt stop you letting your apartments or using them it just controls how you do it. Something that has been tested up to the highest Europeans count.
And your point is??? Retrospective 1995 Tourist LawFirstly I do not rent out my apartment, but the 1995 law stopped the owners right to privately rent out and the new proposed law may actually stop residential use of tourist apartments. I think the 1995 law should not have been retrospectively applied to apartments built before 1995 and that the new proposed laws relating to residential use should not be applied to existing tourist apartments.
Just been reading that Spanish Tourism droppedby 11% during December
Not sure where your numbers came from but this article details the numbers fairly well
http://www.canariesnews.com/2013/01/29/tenerife-celebrates-2012-tourism-figures/#.URDzIB3V6Ag
junglejim
05-02-2013, 13:02
Ashotel now want touristic land to be used for 2nd homes for foreigners that stay up to 6 months - except that they want the jurisdiction of these homes to come under Touristic Law rather than Urban Letting Law so they can control it - parasites to the end !
You invest the money and we can suck income from it on the back of your cash!
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/hoteleros-piden-destinar-suelo-turistico-segundas-residencias/
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Not sure where your numbers came from but this article details the numbers fairly well
http://www.canariesnews.com/2013/01/29/tenerife-celebrates-2012-tourism-figures/#.URDzIB3V6Ag
Quote from previous link of Diario de Avisos
La ocupación en los hoteles de cuatro estrellas creció apenas un 4% y el segmento extraohotelero bajó un 11%.
Ashotel now want touristic land to be used for 2nd homes for foreigners that stay up to 6 months - except that they want the jurisdiction of these homes to come under Touristic Law rather than Urban Letting Law so they can control it - parasites to the end !
You invest the money and we can suck income from it on the back of your cash!
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/hoteleros-piden-destinar-suelo-turistico-segundas-residencias/
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Quote from previous link of Diario de Avisos
La ocupación en los hoteles de cuatro estrellas creció apenas un 4% y el segmento extraohotelero bajó un 11%.
So you were a bit misleading with your report that tourism had dropped 11%.........
turns out Hotels are 4% up and extrahotel (apartments category) was 11% down....... maybe now we can see why theres a need for the crackdown, clearly the apartment sector is struggling.
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Ashotel now want touristic land to be used for 2nd homes for foreigners that stay up to 6 months - except that they want the jurisdiction of these homes to come under Touristic Law rather than Urban Letting Law so they can control it - parasites to the end !
You invest the money and we can suck income from it on the back of your cash!
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/hoteleros-piden-destinar-suelo-turistico-segundas-residencias/
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Quote from previous link of Diario de Avisos
La ocupación en los hoteles de cuatro estrellas creció apenas un 4% y el segmento extraohotelero bajó un 11%.
So you were a bit misleading with your report that tourism had dropped 11%.........
turns out Hotels are 4% up and extrahotel (apartments category) was 11% down....... maybe now we can see why theres a need for the crackdown, clearly the apartment sector is struggling.
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sorry jim not your report.
Altamira
05-02-2013, 15:06
Ashotel now want touristic land to be used for 2nd homes for foreigners that stay up to 6 months - except that they want the jurisdiction of these homes to come under Touristic Law rather than Urban Letting Law so they can control it - parasites to the end !
You invest the money and we can suck income from it on the back of your cash!
Touristic Land Hello Jim, what do they mean touristic land? is is existing and built upon or does it relate to future new building.
[QUOTE=Loaded;260409]So you were a bit misleading with your report that tourism had dropped 11%.........
turns out Hotels are 4% up and extrahotel (apartments category) was 11% down....... maybe now we can see why theres a need for the crackdown, clearly the apartment sector is struggling.
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Firstly my figures were for Spain in December not only Tenerife However its interesting that officialdom despite trying to cook figures are having to admit numbers for 2012 are almost 4% down You of all people should know if the 11% drop in apartment lets is correct perhaps you would like to enlighten the rest of us
Firstly my figures were for Spain in December not only Tenerife However its interesting that officialdom despite trying to cook figures are having to admit numbers for 2012 are almost 4% down You of all people should know if the 11% drop in apartment lets is correct perhaps you would like to enlighten the rest of us
I can't speak for the entire apartment industry (not sure how I would beexpected to know that?) but I know that my figures and those at Royal Palm are doing even better than last year (which was a record for both complexes).
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but if the figures for the apartment industry are correct you can see the logic in combatting illegal apartment rentals.
[QUOTE=Loaded;260409]So you were a bit misleading with your report that tourism had dropped 11%.........
turns out Hotels are 4% up and extrahotel (apartments category) was 11% down....... maybe now we can see why theres a need for the crackdown, clearly the apartment sector is struggling.
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Firstly my figures were for Spain in December not only Tenerife However its interesting that officialdom despite trying to cook figures are having to admit numbers for 2012 are almost 4% down You of all people should know if the 11% drop in apartment lets is correct perhaps you would like to enlighten the rest of us
With respect, mainland Spain hardly has a winter tourist market because it is winter (and damned cold too).
The figures for the Canaries are what matters as it is an all round destination and the discussion here is whether the illegal letting clampdown is having an effect on tourism. Yes, overall the official figures were down 3 or 4 percent on the last year, but the previous three year figures have seen dramatic increases and the loss of a couple of percent last year is hardly a trend. There are (obviously) no official illegal letting figures because, erm, there aren't.
However, not entirely sure what point is being made here but comparing Spain's overall tourist numbers with those of these islands is not actually demonstrating anything - can you expend on what point are you trying to make here
Directed at Kathml
Didn't somebody say that there was 1,000,000 ermm 900,000 ermmm 800,000 illegal beds in the Canarias?
welshman
05-02-2013, 16:50
These figures are a bit misleading I would expect reg complex,s like Loaded etc. would be doing well as they are picking up the bookings form Illegal lets so in respect will hotels. I was out as normal for Christmas and New year I did find No,s down . On our friends complex the bar said their summer was all of three weeks and was struggling over Christmas & New year.
It would be interesting to see how many people actualy arrive. The reg Hotels and complex,s have to record their bookings, if Hotels are up 4% and legal lettings are down 11% where are the illegal renters gone. They don,t seam to arriving they are they not booking Legal lets, if their down 11%. Loss of 11% + Illegal lettings down what is the actual number.
junglejim
05-02-2013, 17:19
The numbers for "extrahotelero" will most likely be legal lets , as Muppet highlights - my experience of talking to people around and friends who holiday here is that they are finding it more and more difficult to book self catering apartments (of any type ) and the all inclusive deals are not
what they are looking for .
The comparison of the number of people arriving at Airports might be a better indication of tourist trade , in our area it´s been a pretty busy year considering the financial woes around.
Altamira - the article only states that Ashotel want the development on designated touristic land but not new hotels - apparently there has been only 2 applications for 5* hotels since 2009 due to moratorium ( and obviously downturn). It doesn´t specify if they are going to knock obsolete complexes down or use land such as El Mojon etc that is designated touristic .
The important issue is Ashotel want it under the "Touristic Umbrella" so they can control it and cannot be long let under Ley De Arrendamiento , Urban Law.
bonitatime
05-02-2013, 17:19
This is interesting as the only people I know with a tourist bar were 20% up over xmas
You simply cannot judge tourism levels on the island by how well Fred's cafe is doing as against Joe's pad. Everything is subjective.
The islands though generally have seen tourism up significantly in the past 3 ish years, although yes it was down a touch last year on the previous which was an all time record because of troubles elsewhere in the world.
In the info I linked to earlier what is interesting is that the average spend of the tourist was up last year on the previous - so, a few fewer actual people but those that came spent more. Net result - a reasonable outcome.
The numbers for "extrahotelero" will most likely be legal lets , as Muppet highlights - my experience of talking to people around and friends who holiday here is that they are finding it more and more difficult to book self catering apartments (of any type ) and the all inclusive deals are not
what they are looking for
Loads of places to book apartmetns without having all inclusive deals and packages
junglejim
05-02-2013, 18:01
I don´t disagree that there are loads of places ,but if you want front line in San Eugenio area below the Motorway it is becoming more difficult - the number of people who were looking this year that I met was considerably up - but lots didn´t want a Hotel .
Try booking Alan Dow´s 30 odd apartments !
The small fall of 4% only amounts to 200,000 quite insignificant if they spent 500 euros each on accomodation food drink etc this only amounts to 100,000,000 euros a pifling amount isint it
Ha Ha - You've got some front you!!
He's dead right though - I have a hotel and if the clients were to come to the front desk demanding that they stay in a certain number and then getting arsy when told its unavailable I'd walk them out the front door myself.
That's the problem these days - people pay money for a service and expect to be able to do what they want when they want and jump on the Internet crying when it doesn't happen.
It seems like loaded provides more than an adequate service for his customers so to try and bring him down with cheap digs is unnecessary. Especially when using an argument that is plainly untrue.
heard today people who have appealed their fine through a certain Canarian lawyer in the courts are getting their fines
reduced to 1,500euros anyone know if it is true
I don´t disagree that there are loads of places ,but if you want front line in San Eugenio area below the Motorway it is becoming more difficult - the number of people who were looking this year that I met was considerably up - but lots didn´t want a Hotel .
Try booking Alan Dow´s 30 odd apartments !
Even without hotels check out the hovina groups apartments and sunset harbour , pueblo Canarias, club Atlantis.....Laguna park 1.....
junglejim
05-02-2013, 19:47
Which all do private illegal letting, my friends have stayed in them all and struggle to get what they want - I have phone numbers for all of these for private bookings but all are virtually booked out!
I don´t let or get involved , I just pass the phone numbers of owners I know on to individuals , the networking of private owners does the rest ;-)
heard today people who have appealed their fine through a certain Canarian lawyer in the courts are getting their fines
reduced to 1,500euros anyone know if it is true
Fine €18,000 > After appeal > €15,000
The €1500 reduction Lawyer sucks
To be honest though, it wouldnt matter if the original fine were reduced to a couple of bob - the second time you are caught it will be many times the original 18,000 and of course they know who you are !!
Fine €18,000 > After appeal > €15,000
The €1500 reduction Lawyer sucks
no 18.000euro fine>most appeals were to> 13,800euros this is people who
went on to go to court the first cases only being heard now are having their
fines reduced to the minimum fine of 1,500 euros anyone know if it true.
I don't know anything about €13,800 nor fines reduced to €1500.
Sounds like a load of garbage
I don't know anything about €13,800 nor fines reduced to €1500.
Sounds like a load of garbage
i might be wrong but isn't the minimum fine specified by this law €3000 ??
i might be wrong but isn't the minimum fine specified by this law €3000 ??
Not sure Bob
Fine €18,000 > After appeal > €15,000
The €1500 reduction Lawyer sucks
Brown envelopes rule :c2: :raspberry:
Only if you can prove it
I don't have to prove anything but will rejoice if its true,even if its just to wind up all the one's on this thread who rejoiced when the silly scale of fines were first announced! *checks flights phones Uncle Santana* :spin:
I concur it would be a funny one if all they got was a couple of euro fine.
But €15,000 is more suited.
Even 1500 would be fine - if they got caught doing it again they'd get a full fine.
And since we're continually told that the owners who got fined were totally unaware of any wrong doing and wouldn't have done it had they known the law; they will no doubt stop renting if the fine was reduced to 1500 or even 0 ........
Right?
They used to build houses without a project or licence because the fine was less of a costing.
I recommended a few years ago on here that it might help if the authorities erected a sign on each complex saying whether it was for residencial or touristic use,Because to be fair you cannot tell with some of them! When a friend of mine mentioned this to the Inspector he met,he was told that although it was a good idea they didn't want to cause panic, I had stayed on that Complex blissfully unaware for 27 years and still to this day there are thousands who don't know any law exists, It would be interesting if someone could explain why the 1995 law was ignored for 15 years and people were allowed to rent willy nilly, Did the Govt just turn a blind eye to it? Similar to what they still do today to the Hair braiders/Massage ladies/Romanian con men etc! I have asked a few times and never really had an answer! Im not sure i will get an answer now but i think it would benefit both sides of the argument!
no 18.000euro fine>most appeals were to> 13,800euros this is people who
went on to go to court the first cases only being heard now are having their
fines reduced to the minimum fine of 1,500 euros anyone know if it true.
There haven't been any court cases as yet, you only get to court on appeal and that's after you have paid your fine.
I recommended a few years ago on here that it might help if the authorities erected a sign on each complex saying whether it was for residencial or touristic use,Because to be fair you cannot tell with some of them! When a friend of mine mentioned this to the Inspector he met,he was told that although it was a good idea they didn't want to cause panic, I had stayed on that Complex blissfully unaware for 27 years and still to this day there are thousands who don't know any law exists, It would be interesting if someone could explain why the 1995 law was ignored for 15 years and people were allowed to rent willy nilly, Did the Govt just turn a blind eye to it? Similar to what they still do today to the Hair braiders/Massage ladies/Romanian con men etc! I have asked a few times and never really had an answer! Im not sure i will get an answer now but i think it would benefit both sides of the argument!
The complexes with a plaque saying :
AT followed by 1-3 keys
Or
Apartmentos with 1-5 stars
Are tourist complexes.
The ones without these plaques are residential.
The complexes with a plaque saying :
AT followed by 1-3 keys
Or
Apartmentos with 1-5 stars
Are tourist complexes.
The ones without these plaques are residential.
Thanks John for your prompt answer, I think it would benefit all concerned if they were made more obvious because i would imagine most tourists never even notice them!
They're usually at reception, that's another thing tourist complexes have; a reception.
He's dead right though - I have a hotel and if the clients were to come to the front desk demanding that they stay in a certain number and then getting arsy when told its unavailable I'd walk them out the front door myself.
That's the problem these days - people pay money for a service and expect to be able to do what they want when they want and jump on the Internet crying when it doesn't happen.
It seems like loaded provides more than an adequate service for his customers so to try and bring him down with cheap digs is unnecessary. Especially when using an argument that is plainly untrue.
Lets get a few things back on the straight and narrow here.
Who said anything about ''demanding'' a certain room? If you had a client who had stayed with you for the last three years, surely you would try and accommodate them if they wanted the same room......wouldn't you?
The ''problem'' is that people who pay for a service expect to what? Do what they want - No, request a certain apartment / room - Yes - they have paid for a service and who said anything about going on the internet 'crying' about anything??
My reference to Fawlty Towers was completely Light-Hearted (I can't believe anyone would take it as a serious insult or 'bring-down' as you put it). If Loaded was genuinely upset by my remark, then I apologise.
Loaded went on to say he would try and accommodate clients who wanted a particular apartment - which is what I would expect, but not what he said in the first place - saying it was something he didn't do on his complex and what prompted my response.
So, I have a medical condition, which means I don't go in the pool. I do, however, love the sunshine, so an apartment that doesn't have sun on the balcony would be no good to me and actually spoil my holiday. That is why I reserve the right to request an apartment facing a certain direction and don't want to have the apartment that is ''available '' that week and is 'allocated' to me.
I would not contemplate staying at a complex that didn't have a suitable apartment, and would always establish which apartment I was staying in BEFORE I booked. I certainly wouldn't ''go on the internet'' to complain one wasn't available as you suggest.
In fact I have to do this every year, and am used to looking at a number of apartments - and being disappointed that one we might have liked is not suitable - until I find the right one. But I am not a nuisance - or a 'fridge-temperature- taker'
The discussion I jumped into was about sole agents and Loaded's first comment sounded like he didn't accommodate people under any circumstances.
Lets get a few things back on the straight and narrow here.
Who said anything about ''demanding'' a certain room? If you had a client who had stayed with you for the last three years, surely you would try and accommodate them if they wanted the same room......wouldn't you?
The ''problem'' is that people who pay for a service expect to what? Do what they want - No, request a certain apartment / room - Yes - they have paid for a service and who said anything about going on the internet 'crying' about anything??
My reference to Fawlty Towers was completely Light-Hearted (I can't believe anyone would take it as a serious insult or 'bring-down' as you put it). If Loaded was genuinely upset by my remark, then I apologise.
Loaded went on to say he would try and accommodate clients who wanted a particular apartment - which is what I would expect, but not what he said in the first place - saying it was something he didn't do on his complex and what prompted my response.
So, I have a medical condition, which means I don't go in the pool. I do, however, love the sunshine, so an apartment that doesn't have sun on the balcony would be no good to me and actually spoil my holiday. That is why I reserve the right to request an apartment facing a certain direction and don't want to have the apartment that is ''available '' that week and is 'allocated' to me.
I would not contemplate staying at a complex that didn't have a suitable apartment, and would always establish which apartment I was staying in BEFORE I booked. I certainly wouldn't ''go on the internet'' to complain one wasn't available as you suggest.
In fact I have to do this every year, and am used to looking at a number of apartments - and being disappointed that one we might have liked is not suitable - until I find the right one. But I am not a nuisance - or a 'fridge-temperature- taker'
The discussion I jumped into was about sole agents and Loaded's first comment sounded like he didn't accommodate people under any circumstances.
Fair enough response that murph - I can see where you're coming from. Just to clarify, my post about people crying on the Internet wasn't aimed at you personally, it was more generally.
I'm off to lock myself in a dark room now as punishment for allowing myself to be dragged onto this mental thread.
I thin that any buyer has the right to specify their requirements whether its goods or a service when you say you want a television you dont want the first old thing the dealer has on the shelf you specify type make size etc so when you rent a room or apartment you specify what you want and if the seller cant accomodate you you'll go elsewhere
I would hope that Loaded and other sole agents try to accomodate their clients as far as possible and if they cant meet what the client requires at least give an explanation
If not Im afraid we will see a continued decline in tourism in tenerife
Apologies for going off topic
As I've already said we take requests from clients and get 95% of them for our clients.
There are some who have been coming for years who get the same apartment each time but as a rule it doesn't happen.
One of the other reasons we take requests for "pool view, sea view, double bed, morning sun, garden view etc" rather than specific numbers is because we have situations like the following :
Someone booked and requested "number 205", they were explained about our policy on requests....
We couldn't get them in 205 and instead put them in 204 which is next door and has the exact same layout and exact same furniture and very similar decor (I furnished and decorated both personally)..... Both had been refurbished at the same time and had same tiles etc.
Anyway, they arrived and hit the roof. Telling me they were not going to stay in that apartment , it's terrible, not what they wanted, never staying here again unless I move them into 205.....
I explained how we couldn't get them 205 and chose 204 for them because it is almost identical , they told me that 205 had a dresser in the 2nd bedroom that was not in 204.......
So despite both apartments being furnished almost identically because one apartment Didn't have this dresser but did have everything else the other apartment had I was a total c**t......
Totally ridiculous behaviour, and again, don't need clients like that - not worth it .
Altamira
06-02-2013, 11:49
Private Rentals It appears that only private rentals can offer the tourist a specific room, 3 cheers for the private sector and hopefully the authorities will learn to appreciate this important sector of tourism.
Posting a prelude of what you're posting in bold - clarifies your point and gives people a heads up of what's coming in next sentence.
HEATED SLIPPERS - warraboutit?
Sundowner
06-02-2013, 14:54
Private Rentals It appears that only private rentals can offer the tourist a specific room, 3 cheers for the private sector and hopefully the authorities will learn to appreciate this important sector of tourism.
It seems that the Canaries are not the only people cracking down on illegal beds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21339891
I think someone should tell them about the Portuguese scheme.............
In New York, renting out an entire apartment for under 30 days was made illegal in 2010. A quick search of Airbnb suggests this would apply to almost half the current listings in the area.
Horror stories circulate about the possibility of big fines for hosts and visitors potentially being turfed out mid-let, but in practice enforcement is difficult in such a vast city.
My Word!
In Amsterdam, the government has used Airbnb listings to track down "illegal hotels" and shut them down - although they are typically targeting absent owners renting out whole apartments rather than individuals subletting a room.
"These places are illegally rented out to tourists with no safety checks and without a permit," says Machteld Ligtvoet, press manager for the Amsterdam Tourism and Convention Board. "We cannot guarantee the safety of our visitors."
Where "illegal hotels" have been raided in Amsterdam, tourists have sometimes been turfed out on to the street.
My WORD!!
Told ya the Canaries were leading the way
x
It seems that the Canaries are not the only people cracking down on illegal beds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21339891
I think someone should tell them about the Portuguese scheme.............
But hang on, the canaries are the only place in the whole wide world making short term letting illegal like hitler and Franco did in the bore war! Surely New York and Amsterdam , two big cities, aren't concerned about their tourist industry?
It seems that the Canaries are not the only people cracking down on illegal beds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21339891
I think someone should tell them about the Portuguese scheme.............
Can't wait to hear Nelson's comments on this !!!
http://www.governing.com/topics/politics/lawmaking/new-york-illegal-sublet-law-affects-vacation-rentals.html
Turns out other places value their hotels and legal accommodation too !
It seems that the Canaries are not the only people cracking down on illegal beds.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21339891
I think someone should tell them about the Portuguese scheme.............
http://www.governing.com/topics/politics/lawmaking/new-york-illegal-sublet-law-affects-vacation-rentals.html
There has to be a mistake - Nelson has assured us that only the Canaries have such draconian laws regarding letting out your property !!!
:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
"Brian Chesky, CEO of Airbnb, an online network of people who want to rent out their spaces, says he received hundreds of e-mails from members claiming that they use the money they earn from renting to subsidize mortgages and living expenses."
Turns out people who are illegally letting like the money cos it helps pay for things ....
Whatever will happen next? Gay marriage? Gun control?
Nellie just keeps getting stuff wrong.
Rent it out you'll be alright, the lazy Spanish will never catch up
If i had a euro for the amount of times i've heard stuff like that here
Nellie just keeps getting stuff wrong.
Rent it out you'll be alright, the lazy Spanish will never catch up
If i had a euro for the amount of times i've heard stuff like that here
Old Jose and Carlos are too busy having a Dorada and a siesta to catch those willie Brits flogging their illegal apartments....
"New York isn't the only city where vacation sublets are being called into question. Paris officials also are warning apartment owners, reminding them that anyone who rents out their flat for less than a year is violating French law. Like New York, Paris officials are doing this in the hopes of maintaining enough affordable permanent housing for its residents."
The Canaries, New York, Amsterdam and now Paris
Blimey
x
So places with letting laws that affect short term rentals :
The Canary Islands
New York City
Paris
Amsterdam
Balearics
London
Any more?
duncan-6
06-02-2013, 16:10
nellie is at the UN in New York, holding up a big banner outside...something about Portugal.
Sundowner
06-02-2013, 16:31
The French fines are horrendous.........25,000 Euro fixed fine + 1000 Euro per square metre a day!!
http://www.connexionfrance.com/paris-renting-apartment-illegal-short-term-and-holiday-lets-10756-news-article.html
Remember nothing is happening
The clampdown widens its net.....
Apparently, Catalonia has clamped down as well and it is being rolled out to ALL regions
Copied from http://habitatgedusturistic.yolasite.com/
Holiday Rental Law in Catalonia 2012
This resume has been compiled from a variety of sources and is to the best of the author’s knowledge correct. However the situation is fluid and the regulations vary from town to town. It is the responsibility of each person to verify his or her obligations and the author cannot be held responsible for any misinterpretation.
Substantial changes were made in 2011 and 2012 affecting the legality of renting out a house or flat to holidaymakers in Catalonia. Every holiday rental property must now be registered with the Department of Tourism of Catalonia. Fines are proposed of up to €90,000 for non-compliance. While it is obvious that there will have to be some leniency during the transitional period, the authorities set 29 September 2012 as the closing date for registration of properties that are currently being advertised in internet or are with agents. As well as this register you have to set up an account with the Mossos d’Esquadra (police) in their register of “viatgers” the same as hotels have to do, and you must notify each let. And of course all rental income has to be declared.
The new laws were assembled as part of a programme called Omnibus which set out to make it easier for owners to come within a framework of legality. It plugs the gaps that previously existed and eliminates most of the grey area that allowed thousands of properties to be rented out in a clandestine manner. The new system applies to all property owners whether they are Spanish nationals, foreigners with Spanish residence or nationals of another country who do not reside in Spain. There is a general roll-out of similar controls across the whole of Spain but each region has been left to adapt their own existing laws. The Ajuntament of Barcelona was very quick to put the law into action and it is now very difficult to get a licence especially in the old part of the city. The same could happen in the City of Girona and the town of Figueres. It is fairly certain that Lloret de Mar will want to tighten up on private holiday rentals.
Most importantly it is not something that is “going to happen”. It has already happened and everybody who has been renting out any type of dwelling must register it as a “habitatge d’us turistic”. The biggest problem for non-Catalan owners is that information is still sparse and what you do find is all in Catalan. All of the documentation you will require is in Catalan. You will not find much help from an estate agent or lawyer or gestor because, although this has been in the pipeline for a couple of years, they have been hit by surprise too and are largely clueless. Even the people in the various town halls (who have the responsibility of doing the registration) do not really know how to handle the situation. They have been sitting on their thumbs hoping it would all go away and now the Generalitat have saddled them squarely with the task.
So what do you need to do? How do you go about it? Where do you have to go? What documents do you need? Do you have to pay? When must you do it? Are there any options to avoid this? Should you stop advertising your property? Who can help you? What are the implications for the renters?
And what about the documents? What is a “notificacio previa”? What is a “cedula de habitabilidad? What’s the difference between “habitatge d’us turistic” and “apartament turistic”? What is “IBI”? Where do you get the documents and what do the names mean? Do all the municipalities apply the new rules the same way? The pages in this website go a small way in helping you. At least you will be informed about the situation.
Also HERE (http://www.hosteltur.com/130700_nueva-ley-contra-apartamentos-piratas-falso-turismo-rural.html)
Altamira
06-02-2013, 17:01
[QUOTE=Loaded;260850]The clampdown widens its net.....[/QUOTE
Apartment Rentals I think most places accept the right to rent out an apartment, if not they should then adopt the Tenerife illegal model as it has worked extremely well for the last 18 years. The recent enforcement of retrospective laws has not stopped many from continuing this successful form of specific customer service.
End of the day all these places are protecting their most important industry.
Only in Canarias etc etc etc
x
Thanks Pablo!
I'm on your side for the most part mate - can see the counter arguments from people who have stayed in the same apts for last few years which suit their needs and don't want to lose that.
The ones going on and on about canarian law being wrong blah blah blah - well I guess they'll find out the hard way that they can't change it, like most others who think they know best...
Can't wait to hear Nelson's comments on this !!!
I wont start a list of countries , cities , towns arond the world where private individual letting is perfectly normal and legal. Clearly the list of normals massivly outweighs the list of places with some form of restriction.
But surely again you are missing a small but important point. The restrictions you are highlighting are to stop letting to tourists blanket in what is considered to be unappropriate circumstances by those govts/councils.
These examples you show are not like the canaries where the tourist renting is allowed , but the odd thing is the demand that only a sole agent on a complex of private apartments should do it.
Can you guys search the globe and find a single example of this sole agency being legal and private individual renting being illegal.
Thats the one you need guys to make your point, or is sole agency as I say, a canarian oddity?
in a nutshell, I dont think paris has or wants monopoly sole agents involved either
Hang on a minute!!!!!!!!! I don't think anyone is suggesting that a person should be allowed to purchase a property, set it up as a rental business and never comply to rules and regulations, pay taxes etc etc. I believe that in every industry there will be those or try to flout the law and those people should be sought out and dealt with accordingly. I believe that the majority of people are happy to comply with realistic laws that benefit the whole of society. (Reading this thread ... maybe I am naive!!!!!!!!!!)
What a lot of people are complaining about is the fact that they bought a property in good faith believing they would be able to rent it out for the weeks they did not wish to use themselves. Many have done this somewhat sneakily! But a lot (like myself) did this with the advise and support of their gestoria who happily filed their tax return each year showing the income they had earnt etc. Who believed they were doing nothing wrong. Which gave very high levels of individual service that larger organisations just wouldn't be able to give. Obviously .... now we see that this is not so. Now we are made to feel like criminals when infact we are nothing more that victims (maybe of our own naive greed ... ie we believed what was obviously too good to be true.)
The fact of the matter is this ... Tenerife is a fabulous island with a so many different things to offer different people. As farming tomatoes and bananas is no longer so competitive surely cashing in on tourism is the only way forward for the island. There should be a tourism department looking at the diversity of tourism that could be offered to prospective holiday makers ..... everything from 5*hotels with their spas and golf courses to camping in the mountains. Within this spectrum, I would say that there is the possibility for private owners on touristic sites to offer their individual home from home to those who wish to rent it. Obviously they would need to be registered and pay their dues etc. But surely you can all see that there is room out there for so much more than hotels and "hotel style apartments". Many many countries survive on their tourist industry very successfully. Diversity is the key. Why just offer hotels or self catering apartment blocks run like hotels. Surely those people who wish to book with "Mrs Smith" because she meets them when they arrive ... takes them for a coffee and tells them about the area etc .... remembers them when they come next time and leaves them their favourite tipple ... lets them know when the cleaner will be coming to clean .... lets them stay till 6pm on their final day because the next clients aren't arriving till 8pm etc etc. As long as Mrs Smith registers with the tourist board who checks here place is as stated, plus she pays her taxes etc ... surely this just adds to the pleasures that Tenerife has to offer??!!
It's not just the Mrs Smiths of this island .... it's the people that live up in the hills who have built a little log cabin on their land to holiday let ..... they take their clients on hikes .... make them picnics .... etc etc ..... all this personal attention to detail that extremely small little "businesses" can afford the time to offer will be lost.
There is a massive market out there than rather than making the most of it.... Tenerife govt is trying to limit it. Any business person can see that limiting your market is just not good business practise.
Those who flout the law should be prosecuted. Of this there is no doubt. What is a terrible terrible shame is that the law is so flawed!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wont start a list of countries , cities , towns arond the world where private individual letting is perfectly normal and legal. Clearly the list of normals massivly outweighs the list of places with some form of restriction.
But surely again you are missing a small but important point. The restrictions you are highlighting are to stop letting to tourists blanket in what is considered to be unappropriate circumstances by those govts/councils.
These examples you show are not like the canaries where the tourist renting is allowed , but the odd thing is the demand that only a sole agent on a complex of private apartments should do it.
Can you guys search the globe and find a single example of this sole agency being legal and private individual renting being illegal.
Thats the one you need guys to make your point, or is sole agency as I say, a canarian oddity?
in a nutshell, I dont think paris has or wants monopoly sole agents involved either
The Balearics for starters - see HERE (http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/resources/owner-advice/buy-to-let-guide-for-your-holiday-home/tourist-apartment-licences-in-the-canaries-and-balearics,-april-2012/a-1-29-2680/)
I wont start a list of countries , cities , towns arond the world where private individual letting is perfectly normal and legal. Clearly the list of normals massivly outweighs the list of places with some form of restriction.
But surely again you are missing a small but important point. The restrictions you are highlighting are to stop letting to tourists blanket in what is considered to be unappropriate circumstances by those govts/councils.
These examples you show are not like the canaries where the tourist renting is allowed , but the odd thing is the demand that only a sole agent on a complex of private apartments should do it.
Can you guys search the globe and find a single example of this sole agency being legal and private individual renting being illegal.
Thats the one you need guys to make your point, or is sole agency as I say, a canarian oddity?
in a nutshell, I dont think paris has or wants monopoly sole agents involved either
Try and find tourist accommodation that's legal in New York or Paris and not a hotel (sole agent system).
Hang on a minute!!!!!!!!! I don't think anyone is suggesting that a person should be allowed to purchase a property, set it up as a rental business and never comply to rules and regulations, pay taxes etc etc. I believe that in every industry there will be those or try to flout the law and those people should be sought out and dealt with accordingly. I believe that the majority of people are happy to comply with realistic laws that benefit the whole of society. (Reading this thread ... maybe I am naive!!!!!!!!!!)
What a lot of people are complaining about is the fact that they bought a property in good faith believing they would be able to rent it out for the weeks they did not wish to use themselves. Many have done this somewhat sneakily! But a lot (like myself) did this with the advise and support of their gestoria who happily filed their tax return each year showing the income they had earnt etc. Who believed they were doing nothing wrong. Which gave very high levels of individual service that larger organisations just wouldn't be able to give. Obviously .... now we see that this is not so. Now we are made to feel like criminals when infact we are nothing more that victims (maybe of our own naive greed ... ie we believed what was obviously too good to be true.)
The fact of the matter is this ... Tenerife is a fabulous island with a so many different things to offer different people. As farming tomatoes and bananas is no longer so competitive surely cashing in on tourism is the only way forward for the island. There should be a tourism department looking at the diversity of tourism that could be offered to prospective holiday makers ..... everything from 5*hotels with their spas and golf courses to camping in the mountains. Within this spectrum, I would say that there is the possibility for private owners on touristic sites to offer their individual home from home to those who wish to rent it. Obviously they would need to be registered and pay their dues etc. But surely you can all see that there is room out there for so much more than hotels and "hotel style apartments". Many many countries survive on their tourist industry very successfully. Diversity is the key. Why just offer hotels or self catering apartment blocks run like hotels. Surely those people who wish to book with "Mrs Smith" because she meets them when they arrive ... takes them for a coffee and tells them about the area etc .... remembers them when they come next time and leaves them their favourite tipple ... lets them know when the cleaner will be coming to clean .... lets them stay till 6pm on their final day because the next clients aren't arriving till 8pm etc etc. As long as Mrs Smith registers with the tourist board who checks here place is as stated, plus she pays her taxes etc ... surely this just adds to the pleasures that Tenerife has to offer??!!
It's not just the Mrs Smiths of this island .... it's the people that live up in the hills who have built a little log cabin on their land to holiday let ..... they take their clients on hikes .... make them picnics .... etc etc ..... all this personal attention to detail that extremely small little "businesses" can afford the time to offer will be lost.
There is a massive market out there than rather than making the most of it.... Tenerife govt is trying to limit it. Any business person can see that limiting your market is just not good business practise.
Those who flout the law should be prosecuted. Of this there is no doubt. What is a terrible terrible shame is that the law is so flawed!!!!!!!!!!!!
Think about it Nelson, between the hotels (legal in paris and new york) and the private property owners (illegal in NYC and Paris ) what is there? Nothing.
The Canary Islands offer something in between those two in the way of tourist apartments governed by a hotel Style sole management agent.
Buying tourist apartments in canaries could even be viewed as a rare opportunity to invest (via bricks and mortar) in a destinations primary economy .
The Balearics for starters - see HERE (http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/resources/owner-advice/buy-to-let-guide-for-your-holiday-home/tourist-apartment-licences-in-the-canaries-and-balearics,-april-2012/a-1-29-2680/)
Ok, the Balearics is Spain, are there any monopoly sole agent systems anywhere in the world outside Spain?
Ok, the Balearics is Spain, are there any monopoly sole agent systems anywhere in the world outside Spain?
Hotels all over the world
Buying tourist apartments in canaries could even be viewed as a rare opportunity to invest (via bricks and mortar) in a destinations primary economy .
We can buy property to holiday let all around the world to rent freely without sole agents being
Made to do it be involved in it. That's uk, Ireland Europe Arabia India Australia etc etc.
No ones dreamt of monopoly sole agents, and back to Paris, Westminster, restrictions yes, but a sole agent system in place, well no
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Hotels all over the world
And sole agents running private apartment s like one big hotel,
Yes, as we keep on telling you,
Only in the canaries
At least the penny has dropped finally.
Get used to it.
junglejim
07-02-2013, 10:14
The New York comparison is interesting from the point of view that it has laws that are designed to protect the housing scarcity in an overcrowded city that has become a major tourist attraction as well . Their law from around 2011 tries to tie it down better (maybe like Tenerife's review of 1995) and force people into regulated accommodation - I have stayed in Central New York in S/C apartments that were legal and well presented as well as a "Boutique Hotel" at $ 200 per night that was a nightmare , with mice living in the mattress!
How they got a licence I can only guess !
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g60763-c147344/New-York-City:New-York:Vacation.Apartment.Rentals.html
The laws that are being revised here may be protecting the tourist industry per se but they are not being totally fair to owners and allowing some "Sole Agents" to abuse the system and these Agents are driving the Agenda .
abuse the system
What do you mean Jim ?
As has been explained many times before,you have to look at the reasons behind this law coming into being.In the 80's and 90's there was a complete free for all in the tourist market.At peak holiday times there we massive overbookings in both apartments and hotel rooms even by companies like Thomsons and Intersun.Every complex had several agents looking after apartments and many of those made Mr.Konrad look like a saint.They were letting out apartments without informing owners and owners would arrive to find they couldn't access thier own properties because locks had been changed.Tourists died in the Santiago complexes because gas boilers hadn't been serviced.Nobody took responsibility for swimming pools or safety on these sites.In one word tourism in Tenerife was becoming a "disaster".There has to be one person accountable for looking after the tourists on each complex for all the reasons listed before,not for people like Nelson or Mrs.Smith who may do a superb job of looking after their apartments and visitors.However the government can't trust individual owners to act reponsible manner.You will not change the law relating to sole agents and would be better to take on the bad agents and use your energy to get them removed and put the good guys in their place.(See no mention of tax).
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the last few posts from Nellie's perspective is that rather than the restrictions here in the Canaries for example being some king of left-over from the dictatorship of the past as he would like to believe, it seems that civilised countries the world over - such as the UK, France, the USA have been busy introducing laws protecting themselves from property owners doing their "own thing" outside of the wishes of the various states as recently as last year.
True, different countries approach the issue from different directions, as might be expected, but the fundamental principle is to maintain and improve standards for travellers and visitors which, it the clear priority for the Canarians.
The most important point for those who have chosen to break the laws here and have fallen foul of the rules must be that any chance of gaining much in the way of sympathy and understanding from the European courts if the Canarian rules were to be challenged again would seem to be most unlikely. The Canarians defence in court would cite the growing list of not only countries outside, but inside the EU which operate restrictions (ok Nellie - protectionist) laws and practises.
Clearly, as others have pointed out, there is a way in the Canaries and other areas of Spain for that matter, where you can buy to let apartments as long-term investments provided you operate within the law, rather than outside it.
Sadly though Nelson, the arguments you are putting forward to be allowed to continue to milk the islands on your terms only appear to be falling on the deaf ears of the law makers here, and it appears that the only way forward for your little enterprise is to sign up to an agent (or work with your fellow owners to re-appoint one) so that you can comply with the legislation, have the appropriate contributions you should have been making to the local economy dealt with for you.
And you know what? despite your protestations about how unfair and protectionist the laws may be, you Nellie will still be the proud owner of a bit of real-estate at the end of your mortgages, which is a significantly better position to find yourself in than many of the natives of this country who cannot even afford to feed their families let alone put a roof over their heads. The only difference complying with the local laws is that it will take you a little longer to get there.
(See no mention of tax).
FAIL..........
x
junglejim
07-02-2013, 10:51
What do you mean Jim ?
The abuse has been highlighted many times from some agents,very poor returns,monopolising apartment, downgrading of fittings ,non-payment of monies , nonpayment of community fees and bills, dodgy certificates are the ones I have experience and knowledge of - or are you going to call me a liar again?
The abuse has been highlighted many times from some agents,very poor returns,monopolising apartment, downgrading of fittings ,non-payment of monies , nonpayment of community fees and bills, dodgy certificates are the ones I have experience and knowledge of - or are you going to call me a liar again?
Solution:- If most or all of the other owners on the list feel the same, change the Sole Agent
Sundowner
07-02-2013, 11:04
The Portuguese may have a different system, but it seems that they have the same idea as the Canaries in wanting to get rid of illegal beds!
http://www.algarveresident.com/0-47534/algarve/government-must-stamp-out-illegal-holiday-homes
Altamira
07-02-2013, 11:21
The Portuguese may have a different system, but it seems that they have the same idea as the Canaries in wanting to get rid of illegal beds!
Legalise Private Rentals Surely the answer is to regulate, inspect & legalize private rentals, this would ensure a vibrant multi-marketing tourist industry, that is capable of maintaining a sustainable & expanding market. Private rentals is a niche market that needs support from the government and not the enforcement of a bad & unreasonable monopoly law.
If they ever legalise private rentals there will a massive surge in sales of residential properties which will be exploited for tourism, this will mean no peace from tourists for residents anywhere
As has been explained many times before,you have to look at the reasons behind this law coming into being.In the 80's and 90's there was a complete free for all in the tourist market.At peak holiday times there we massive overbookings in both apartments and hotel rooms even by companies like Thomsons and Intersun.Every complex had several agents looking after apartments and many of those made Mr.Konrad look like a saint.They were letting out apartments without informing owners and owners would arrive to find they couldn't access thier own properties because locks had been changed.Tourists died in the Santiago complexes because gas boilers hadn't been serviced.Nobody took responsibility for swimming pools or safety on these sites.In one word tourism in Tenerife was becoming a "disaster".There has to be one person accountable for looking after the tourists on each complex for all the reasons listed before,not for people like Nelson or Mrs.Smith who may do a superb job of looking after their apartments and visitors.However the government can't trust individual owners to act reponsible manner.You will not change the law relating to sole agents and would be better to take on the bad agents and use your energy to get them removed and put the good guys in their place.(See no mention of tax).
But if Nelson and Mrs Smith had to register their property with the tourist board who annually checked the property was up to standard and was as advertised this would solve the situation you describe. The community of owners should keep communal areas up to scratch. Everyone knows that the reception on each complex knows which apartments rent out ... the reception should have a list of those who are registered to rent out and report those who continue to rent out without registering to the tourist board inspector when he does his regular checks. The inspectors wages would easy be covered by the money generated by the registration fees.
I agree with you that this is not the case ... and the govt is set on retaining the system it does have in place. All I am saying is that the islands are missing out on a chance to improve the situation for everyone. The likes of the Loadeds of this world would still prosper as they are giving a good service to both their holiday makers and their owners .....
As you say .... this is just a dream though. It's not likely to happen ............ but if it did, the tourism on this island would prosper.
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Solution:- If most or all of the other owners on the list feel the same, change the Sole Agent
If only it were that simple!!!!!!!!!
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If they ever legalise private rentals there will a massive surge in sales of residential properties which will be exploited for tourism, this will mean no peace from tourists for residents anywhere
Not if only complexes with tourist licences are allowed to rent to tourists and owners on those complexes are given the choice of sticking to the agent or registering directly with the tourist board.
If they ever legalise private rentals there will a massive surge in sales of residential properties which will be exploited for tourism, this will mean no peace from tourists for residents anywhere
Good, that's how it should be in a busy tourist resort, it puts food on the table, pays the bills, the mortgages, even lifeguards wages
Altamira
07-02-2013, 12:56
If they ever legalise private rentals there will a massive surge in sales of residential properties which will be exploited for tourism, this will mean no peace from tourists for residents anywhere
Legalize Private Rentals You are absolutely correct, it would greatly boost the sales of all apartments, however I meant for my suggestion to only apply to those within a tourist complex.
FAIL..........
x
Can I have half a pass for trying? Surely wasn't a complete FAIL!!!!!!
junglejim
07-02-2013, 13:07
Solution:- If most or all of the other owners on the list feel the same, change the Sole Agent
Absolutely correct but the procedure for doing this isn't simple and it requires the owners ,collectively, to organise themselves .
The inertia on many complexes prevents this from happening - we happened to have a fairly strong-willed President who took the sole agent on with the support of the owners but find it difficult to resurrect the licence due to various "barriers" suddenly arising!
Can I have half a pass for trying? Surely wasn't a complete FAIL!!!!!!
I'm happy to give you 3/4 of a pass but no more
cheers
x
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Absolutely correct but the procedure for doing this isn't simple and it requires the owners ,collectively, to organise themselves .
The inertia on many complexes prevents this from happening - we happened to have a fairly strong-willed President who took the sole agent on with the support of the owners but find it difficult to resurrect the licence due to various "barriers" suddenly arising!
That's exactly what community living is, a collective, that's also reason they need one sole agent that controls everything from a tourism point of view, making it simpler.
But the collective on a movement basis doesn't work because there's so many heads all chipping in with their preferred ideas.
Because like you refer to so many people can be difficult to control and communicate with if you have to speak to every single one of them.
Imagine the Government having to communicate with every single owner and then every single owner on every single complex in the Canaries.
The Sole Agent system works we have various apartments on sole agent controlled site and it's just brilliant.
But if Nelson and Mrs Smith had to register their property with the tourist board who annually checked the property was up to standard and was as advertised this would solve the situation you describe. The community of owners should keep communal areas up to scratch. Everyone knows that the reception on each complex knows which apartments rent out ... the reception should have a list of those who are registered to rent out and report those who continue to rent out without registering to the tourist board inspector when he does his regular checks. The inspectors wages would easy be covered by the money generated by the registration fees.
I agree with you that this is not the case ... and the govt is set on retaining the system it does have in place. All I am saying is that the islands are missing out on a chance to improve the situation for everyone. The likes of the Loadeds of this world would still prosper as they are giving a good service to both their holiday makers and their owners .....
As you say .... this is just a dream though. It's not likely to happen ............ but if it did, the tourism on this island would prosper.
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If only it were that simple!!!!!!!!!
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Not if only complexes with tourist licences are allowed to rent to tourists and owners on those complexes are given the choice of sticking to the agent or registering directly with the tourist board.
so inspectors wages are covered by the monthly fees, how are you funding the reception and reception staff?
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this would also create differnet types of tourist complexes, ones with the sole agent system, ones without......so there'd be:
Residential complexes
tourist complexes with private rentals only
tourist complexes with sole agents
Villas
Hotels
golf birdie
07-02-2013, 13:49
so inspectors wages are covered by the monthly fees, how are you funding the reception and reception staff?
maybe they should follow places like Paris and I think New York where they have a tourist tax. In Paris they have a 1€ per person per night tax. Would raise a fair bit here.
Reception costs would be covered by the community. Anyone who purchases on a tourist complex uses the reception whether they rent out or not. Just as the gardeners and technicians etc are paid by the community.
There would be residential complexes, tourist complexes, hotels, villas, owners of rural properties with an annexe or cabin or "granny flat" type of place that they rent out etc. On tourist sites, owners would have the option of passing their property over to the sole agent or working independently. (Or not renting out at all.)
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This is just pie in the sky though! We all no "it aint goin to happen!!".
the problem is that Tenerife lives in a world 20 years behind the rest of the civilised world still in a world where you need a permit for everything which must be rubber stamped oh so many times
As the unemployment figures edge up towards 40 % maybe some politician will see some sense
junglejim
07-02-2013, 14:36
Reception costs would be covered by the community. Anyone who purchases on a tourist complex uses the reception whether they rent out or not. Just as the gardeners and technicians etc are paid by the community.
There would be residential complexes, tourist complexes, hotels, villas, owners of rural properties with an annexe or cabin or "granny flat" type of place that they rent out etc. On tourist sites, owners would have the option of passing their property over to the sole agent or working independently. (Or not renting out at all.)
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This is just pie in the sky though! We all no "it aint goin to happen!!".
Previously ,our reception costs were split between the sole agent and community -when the agent departed, those costs fell onto the community, which was dormant and we didn´t actually need receptionists( except for the illegal renters) ,but in order to revive the licence a reception is needed -if and when the Touristic Licence is revived we will have a community argument on who pays for their costs - we personally have no need or use of a reception as we have a personal entry system -we do however value our Nightguard and are happy to pay for him .
[QUOTE=9PLUS;261124]I'm happy to give you 3/4 of a pass but no more
cheers
x
Grateful for anything I can get these days x
So
Moratorium to be enshrined in law, no more touristic land being made available, got to use what already exists.
I can see the logic - just hope evictions of residents in touristic apartments is dropped, otherwise ........
mmmm
Altamira
07-02-2013, 15:49
So
Moratorium to be enshrined in law, no more touristic land being made available, got to use what already exists.
I can see the logic - just hope evictions of residents in touristic apartments is dropped, otherwise ........
mmmm Evictions I do not rent out my tourist apartment, however I tend to think that I spend more than the average tourist. So what on earth would the tourist industry gain from such evictions, well they would perhaps have several thousand hostile tourist apartment owners demanding a repeal of such an unjust & inhumane law.
junglejim
07-02-2013, 15:55
It´s stillin Discussion stage Muppet -nothing has been agreed ,yesterday was the first meeting , hardly breakneck speed -is it?
http://eldia.es/2013-02-07/canarias/1-CC-estudia-formulas-pactar-PP-moratoria-turistica.htm
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/moratoria-sera-indefinida-pero-premiara-con-camas-renovacion/
Evictions I do not rent out my tourist apartment, however I tend to think that I spend more than the average tourist. So what on earth would the tourist industry gain from such evictions, well they would perhaps have several thousand hostile tourist apartment owners demanding a repeal of such an unjust & inhumane law.
what would the industry gain? another unit to rent out to tourists?
Altamira
07-02-2013, 16:38
what would the industry gain? another unit to rent out to tourists?
Sole Agent The only person that would gain would be the monopoly crazed sole agent, at the horrendous expense of the actual owner of the property.
Evictions I do not rent out my tourist apartment, however I tend to think that I spend more than the average tourist. So what on earth would the tourist industry gain from such evictions, well they would perhaps have several thousand hostile tourist apartment owners demanding a repeal of such an unjust & inhumane law.
More interesting will be who actually would own the property if this happens - I'm guessing but surely they would actually have to purchase the properties as EU Human Rights laws would prevent them from just kicking the current owners out ??
the problem is that Tenerife lives in a world 20 years behind the rest of the civilised world still in a world where you need a permit for everything which must be rubber stamped oh so many times
As the unemployment figures edge up towards 40 % maybe some politician will see some sense
Define civilized please and tell me where in this civilized world you can live as an immigrant without permits and rubber stamps!!!!!!!
Sole Agent The only person that would gain would be the monopoly crazed sole agent, at the horrendous expense of the actual owner of the property.
Yes the sole agent would gain, so would the owner of the apartment, so would the bars and restaurants and other tourist focused businesses in the area, the tax man....... the tourist who otherwise wouldn't have been able to book into that complex.......
maybe they should follow places like Paris and I think New York where they have a tourist tax. In Paris they have a 1€ per person per night tax. Would raise a fair bit here.
For example: Last year we had circa 12'000 nights of occupancy with an average of 2.66 persons per apartment(according to the figures we submitted to the Tourist Board) therefore €31'920.00 would be generated by your idea. Half of this amount would go towards office rental leaving not much to cover staff, telephones, computers, utility bills etc.. Nice idea but you would have to quadruple the amount to get it close to working.
A family of 4 on a 2 week holiday would add €244.00 to the cost, at least it would bring the prices in line with what the current legal sole agents have to charge to cover their overheads.
Define civilized please and tell me where in this civilized world you can live as an immigrant without permits and rubber stamps!!!!!!!
sorry I should have used the word modern and despite a lot of what is said we still live a reasonably easy life without a massive amount of officialdom whether youre a national or immigrant unlike tenerife where the ordinary canarians put up with an extraordinary amount of officialdom I can only assume its a leftover from living in a dictatorship for so long
Altamira
07-02-2013, 17:19
More interesting will be who actually would own the property if this happens - I'm guessing but surely they would actually have to purchase the properties as EU Human Rights laws would prevent them from just kicking the current owners out ??
Evictions/Penalties Lets all hope that the authorities will act in a humane way and allow residents to continue to live in their tourist apartments. However if they do not, then I would imagine that the authorities will have little need for evictions, as they would simply apply horrendous fines for failing to comply with the regulations. Perhaps 30000 euros every time they carry out an inspection. The problem is that this is all geared up to give a relatively small group of people a right to act like parasites and live off the back of the victimized individuals.
Reception costs would be covered by the community. Anyone who purchases on a tourist complex uses the reception whether they rent out or not. Just as the gardeners and technicians etc are paid by the community.
There would be residential complexes, tourist complexes, hotels, villas, owners of rural properties with an annexe or cabin or "granny flat" type of place that they rent out etc. On tourist sites, owners would have the option of passing their property over to the sole agent or working independently. (Or not renting out at all.)
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This is just pie in the sky though! We all no "it aint goin to happen!!".
You will always get the objection "why should I pay towards an office as I don't rent my apartment". We had similar objections when trying to raise the funds for the fire project that was required.
For example: Last year we had circa 12'000 nights of occupancy with an average of 2.66 persons per apartment(according to the figures we submitted to the Tourist Board) therefore €31'920.00 would be generated by your idea. Half of this amount would go towards office rental leaving not much to cover staff, telephones, computers, utility bills etc.. Nice idea but you would have to quadruple the amount to get it close to working.
A family of 4 on a 2 week holiday would add €244.00 to the cost, at least it would bring the prices in line with what the current legal sole agents have to charge to cover their overheads.
Youre beginning to sound like a politician with costs fora simple reception office of 130000 euros a year
golf birdie
07-02-2013, 17:33
So
Moratorium to be enshrined in law, no more touristic land being made available, got to use what already exists.
I can see the logic - just hope evictions of residents in touristic apartments is dropped, otherwise ........
mmmm
so what will happen to the land both sides of main Cristianos road?
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For example: Last year we had circa 12'000 nights of occupancy with an average of 2.66 persons per apartment(according to the figures we submitted to the Tourist Board) therefore €31'920.00 would be generated by your idea. Half of this amount would go towards office rental leaving not much to cover staff, telephones, computers, utility bills etc.. Nice idea but you would have to quadruple the amount to get it close to working.
A family of 4 on a 2 week holiday would add €244.00 to the cost, at least it would bring the prices in line with what the current legal sole agents have to charge to cover their overheads.
never said it was to pay for anything, just thought I'd bring TAX back into play:raspberry:
Youre beginning to sound like a politician with costs fora simple reception office of 130000 euros a year
130000 on paloma beach would mean a 1 bed would have to pay and extra 400 euros per year making community fees 1600 per year instead of 1200.
I could imagine a lot of upset owners considering we were getting moans at having to up the community by 5% last year....... telling everyone it's going up almost 35% would be carnage.
Sole Agent The only person that would gain would be the monopoly crazed sole agent, at the horrendous expense of the actual owner of the property.
Why do you tar us with the same brush? The only bad agent mentioned on here is Conrad, but he has not posted anything against the illegal renters defending himself. Maybe if all the illegals stopped renting he would give a better return!
I love the theory that all sole agents are power crazed monopolists who will stop at nothing to rent an apartment out!
Youre beginning to sound like a politician with costs fora simple reception office of 130000 euros a year
We have 10 staff on contract including the cleaners, when you divide it up it is not excessive!
I'm not a politician just a sole agent good at mathematics :bottomline:
It´s stillin Discussion stage Muppet -nothing has been agreed ,yesterday was the first meeting , hardly breakneck speed -is it?
http://eldia.es/2013-02-07/canarias/1-CC-estudia-formulas-pactar-PP-moratoria-turistica.htm
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/moratoria-sera-indefinida-pero-premiara-con-camas-renovacion/
Hey, don't shoot the messenger. What is clear though is that the discussions are heading in the wrong direction for those like Nellie who firmly believe that "Wonderland" will change any time soon and common sense (as he see's it) will come through eventually. Any changes in his favour couldn't seem to be further away from the likely outcome.
golf birdie
07-02-2013, 18:10
We have 10 staff on contract including the cleaners, when you divide it up it is not excessive!
I'm not a politician just a sole agent good at mathematics :bottomline:
so the 130k would be social, wages, rent and other expenses?
Altamira
07-02-2013, 18:25
I love the theory that all sole agents are power crazed monopolists who will stop at nothing to rent an apartment out!
Sole Agent Monopoly I have been running businesses for a very long time and I dearly wish I had operated a monopoly. If I had then perhaps I would have acted like a dictator, abused my position and accumulated large sums of cash, lets remember that history gives us many examples of such behavior.
You will always get the objection "why should I pay towards an office as I don't rent my apartment". We had similar objections when trying to raise the funds for the fire project that was required.
In a community the communal costs are divided between the owners .... whether they like it or not. I own a local on a complex and never set foot in the gardens or swim in the pool etc ... but accept that I have to pay for their upkeep as I am a member of the community. Owners will always complain about paying for things they don't use (I remember a very angry owner complaining about having to pay a derrama to renew the flooring along the walkways on the 6th and 2nd floor ..... he never went to these floors so why should he pay? Another complained about the maintenance charge for the lifts he never used.) The simple fact is that any cost connected to the maintenance or running of the community can be split between the owners .... that is the point of having a community in the first place. Anyway in disagreement needs to move into an individual villa/finca.
Sole Agent Monopoly I have been running businesses for a very long time and I dearly wish I had operated a monopoly. If I had then perhaps I would have acted like a dictator, abused my position and accumulated large sums of cash, lets remember that history gives us many examples of such behavior.
Nothing to stop you setting up as an agent,find yourself a complex with an expired/dormant tourist licence and off you go........... I'm sure you would be back on here in a year explaining that it's not a easy as you thought it would be.They don't have a monopoly just a business on a complex.If the owners don't want to rent out using the agent,they don't have to.
Nothing to stop you setting up as an agent,find yourself a complex with an expired/dormant tourist licence and off you go........... I'm sure you would be back on here in a year explaining that it's not a easy as you thought it would be.They don't have a monopoly just a business on a complex.If the owners don't want to rent out using the agent,they don't have to.
But if they dont use the agent they cant rent it out themselves and until the owners who perhaps bought without the touristic position being explained either sell up or die off youre going to have on going dissent
so inspectors wages are covered by the monthly fees, how are you funding the reception and reception staff?
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this would also create differnet types of tourist complexes, ones with the sole agent system, ones without......so there'd be:
Residential complexes
tourist complexes with private rentals only
tourist complexes with sole agents
Villas
Hotels
nothing created at all, just the real world not alice in wonderland world.
Tom & Sharon
07-02-2013, 19:17
Good, that's how it should be in a busy tourist resort, it puts food on the table, pays the bills, the mortgages, even lifeguards wages
Geez we are on ethic cleansing of residents now,I'll guarantee I'll still be on this island long after you've upped sticks matey...........................
Tom :wink:
Sole Agent The only person that would gain would be the monopoly crazed sole agent, at the horrendous expense of the actual owner of the property.
in the real world it would be a pointless exercise. You would not end up with tourists who actually wanted to stay in a uniform sole agent dumbed down semi hotel. Its all a canary govt fantasy that you should force the tourists into such places rather than just them chose their own private apartment to rent, a very popular part of canary tourism.
we bought our apartment 10 years ago from the sole agent owners, because they could not make it pay any more trying to fill the place up with 2 star belgian tourists. They quite simply could not compete in the real world with the demands of the big tour operators and the needs to run the place with all the trappings of a hotel.
In reality tourismo is going against reason and commercial reality in trying to force through their agenda, rather than accept the modern and natural trend towards private holiday home renting.
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Geez we are on ethic cleansing of residents now,I'll guarantee I'll still be on this island long after you've upped sticks matey...........................
Tom :wink:
lets all hope that there are still plenty of actual tourists on the island as well , or at least plenty of them in the actual tourist resorts.
junglejim
07-02-2013, 19:29
In a community the communal costs are divided between the owners .... whether they like it or not. I own a local on a complex and never set foot in the gardens or swim in the pool etc ... but accept that I have to pay for their upkeep as I am a member of the community. Owners will always complain about paying for things they don't use (I remember a very angry owner complaining about having to pay a derrama to renew the flooring along the walkways on the 6th and 2nd floor ..... he never went to these floors so why should he pay? Another complained about the maintenance charge for the lifts he never used.) The simple fact is that any cost connected to the maintenance or running of the community can be split between the owners .... that is the point of having a community in the first place. Anyway in disagreement needs to move into an individual villa/finca.
I ´m not convinced if you operate an external locale that you contribute towards items such as pool etc. -on our community , the locale owners do not pay towards pool and grounds but pay pro-rata for some other communal costs that they share - but they are not allowed to use the pool.
Check section 11 and 17 of Horizontal Property Law for costs associated with improvements as well - you don´t always have contribute to everything .
Tom & Sharon
07-02-2013, 19:43
in the real world it would be a pointless exercise. You would not end up with tourists who actually wanted to stay in a uniform sole agent dumbed down semi hotel. Its all a canary govt fantasy that you should force the tourists into such places rather than just them chose their own private apartment to rent, a very popular part of canary tourism.
we bought our apartment 10 years ago from the sole agent owners, because they could not make it pay any more trying to fill the place up with 2 star belgian tourists. They quite simply could not compete in the real world with the demands of the big tour operators and the needs to run the place with all the trappings of a hotel.
In reality tourismo is going against reason and commercial reality in trying to force through their agenda, rather than accept the modern and natural trend towards private holiday home renting.
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lets all hope that there are still plenty of actual tourists on the island as well , or at least plenty of them in the actual tourist resorts.
I think we all know the answer to that!!! when you have to queue at passport control to get in TF and you have to fight the queues at the bars and food stalls in the airport on the way out of TF despite what all the doom merchants on this thread would have us believe.......................
Tom
Sole Agent Monopoly I have been running businesses for a very long time and I dearly wish I had operated a monopoly. If I had then perhaps I would have acted like a dictator, abused my position and accumulated large sums of cash, lets remember that history gives us many examples of such behavior.
Are you going to start giving us historic examples to back your point as well now?
Are you going to start giving us historic examples to back your point as well now?
Have you found anywhere outside Spain with a monopoly sole agent system yet for organising collective renting of private individual holiday homes?
But if they dont use the agent they cant rent it out themselves and until the owners who perhaps bought without the touristic position being explained either sell up or die off youre going to have on going dissent
let the buyer beware
junglejim
07-02-2013, 21:55
let the buyer beware
So the Estate Agent and Lawyers have no duty of care to their clients ?
bonitatime
07-02-2013, 21:56
Have you found anywhere outside Spain with a monopoly sole agent system yet for organising collective renting of private individual holiday homes?
You dont have a prívate individual holiday home you have a unit On a comunal complex.
You dont have a prívate individual holiday home you have a unit On a comunal complex.
No sorry, we own a freehold apartment in a complex of private individual owners. We have a community of owners that we collectively contribute to for the upkeep and management of communal areas.
But our apartment most definitely is our personal freehold property,
Sole Agents are here to stay.
[QUOTE=Tom & Sharon;261209][/B]
I think we all know the answer to that!!! when you have to queue at passport control to get in TF and you have to fight the queues at the bars and food stalls in the airport on the way out of TF despite what all the doom merchants on this thread would have us believe.......................xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thats Funny its several years since I noticed queues at the airport either coming in or going out I guess I must be going around with my eyes shut in fact I cant remember when I saw the airport busy and Ive never had to queue for a taxi either for at least 5/7 years :lol::lol:
Thats Funny its several years since I noticed queues at the airport either coming in or going out I guess I must be going around with my eyes shut in fact I cant remember when I saw the airport busy and Ive never had to queue for a taxi either for at least 5/7 years :lol::lol:
So Kath, you are saying that the airport is quieter now than it has ever been? Or perhaps maybe perhaps just a bit more efficient?
[QUOTE=Tom & Sharon;261209][/B]
I think we all know the answer to that!!! when you have to queue at passport control to get in TF and you have to fight the queues at the bars and food stalls in the airport on the way out of TF despite what all the doom merchants on this thread would have us believe.......................xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thats Funny its several years since I noticed queues at the airport either coming in or going out I guess I must be going around with my eyes shut in fact I cant remember when I saw the airport busy and Ive never had to queue for a taxi either for at least 5/7 years :lol::lol:
This is thanks to having 7 flight days a week to the UK instead of the two days we used to have.In the old days Tuesdays and Fridays were beyond horrendous but now with more flights spead over the week it is much easier to organize and the airport is much more efficient.
[QUOTE=kathml;261301]
This is thanks to having 7 flight days a week to the UK instead of the two days we used to have.In the old days Tuesdays and Fridays were beyond horrendous but now with more flights spead over the week it is much easier to organize and the airport is much more efficient.
It could be possible that its a bit of both a slightly more efficient airport and a drop in numbers also along with on the whole more efficient airlines such as easyjet and ryanair but on virtually everyones stats numbers were down significantly last year
[QUOTE=fonica;261309]
It could be possible that its a bit of both a slightly more efficient airport and a drop in numbers also along with on the whole more efficient airlines such as easyjet and ryanair but on virtually everyones stats numbers were down significantly last year
50 flights from the Uk today, and approx 170 flights a week, so still plenty of people coming to the island.
Another Fail
Me? God I'm getting paranoid!
@ Kath
You will find the official stats for both passenger numbers and aircraft movements here.
They don't support your point very well ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_South_Airport
Altamira
08-02-2013, 10:56
Nothing to stop you setting up as an agent,find yourself a complex with an expired/dormant tourist licence and off you go........... I'm sure you would be back on here in a year explaining that it's not a easy as you thought it would be.They don't have a monopoly just a business on a complex.If the owners don't want to rent out using the agent,they don't have to.
Sole Agent Partnership You are correct, but why would I want to have an expired/dormant complex, I think many of the owners could be extremely hostile to being taken over by some unknown & newly crazed sole agent. I already own an apartment within a licensed complex, but if I was no longer permitted to use my apartment for residential purposes, then the best option for many owners would be to form a community led sole agent partnership. However this may prove to be very difficult on some complexes, particularly if the sole agent is well connected and running time shares and owns the reception.
So the Sole Agent would be a better option given that some complexes would be very difficult to arrange stuff when you have a bunch of owners trying to do it.
So the Sole Agent would be a better option given that some complexes would be very difficult to arrange stuff when you have a bunch of owners trying to do it.
and if the owners did it themselves they too would become "newly crazed" - the sole agent always goes crazy and monopolistic you know?
Altamira
08-02-2013, 11:58
So the Sole Agent would be a better option given that some complexes would be very difficult to arrange stuff when you have a bunch of owners trying to do it.
Niche Market of Specific Apartment Rentals Firstly you have to recognize that the majority of owners on my complex would rather return to the pre-enforcement of the 1995 laws and be able to continue to operate the successful niche market of specific apartment rentals. It appears that our sole agent is not offering an acceptable arrangement, therefore many of the owners would like to arrange something that will be controlled by the owners and would benefit the owner, rather than an unwanted sole agent, who may be difficult to dislodge.
4550
I give you "Sole Agent"....
Biography
Overview: A mixture of Emporor Ming and and a superhero to give it that element of ambiguity, with a penchant for Monopoly and large stacks of cash; "Sole Agent" is hell bent on power and will stop at nothing to fill his swag bag with undeclared tax revenue and money from bookings he didn't tell owners about.
Life
Born Edmund Seagal on October 12th, 1912 was raised in Zair in an orphanage for unwanted children with disfunctional personalites. Beaten regularly by his guardians, Edmund would grow to hate mankind and all that it stood for. During his early teens his studied business in East Berlin and became a member of an underground Nazi supporter group. During the 1930's he became close to Hitlers inner sanctom and ghost wrote Mein Kampf on account of Adolf Hitlers dislexia.
He supported the Nazi party until 1943 when he realised that Enigma was not secure - rather than inform Hitler he became a double agent and worked with British inteligence in return for vast amounts of property in the Camen Islands.
After World War 2, the British Government reneged on their agreement and stripped Edmund of his assets. This angered him and he would forever wage war on property owners thereafter. After initially rebranding himself as Doctor Von Doom, Edmund Seagal would eventually become "Sole Agent" due to copyright infringement.
Sole Agent moved to the Canary Islands in 1973 and awaited rental laws to become questionable and controversial to British property owners. Seizing his chance "Sole Agent" could finally extract revenge on the British Empire.
Altamira
08-02-2013, 12:21
Sole Agent Hello Loaded, I have just read your CV and I am suitably impressed, I think you have the potential to become the new Altamira Sole Agent, I know it sounds crazy but you sound as though you "have the power" to dispose of our existing one.
Sole Agent Hello Loaded, I have just read your CV and I am suitably impressed, I think you have the potential to become the new Altamira Sole Agent, I know it sounds crazy but you sound as though you "have the power" to dispose of our existing one.
Sole Agent doesn't make deals with property owners, he destroys them with Laser beams and mind bullets - thats telekenesis my friend.
Sole Agent Hello Loaded, I have just read your CV and I am suitably impressed, I think you have the potential to become the new Altamira Sole Agent, I know it sounds crazy but you sound as though you "have the power" to dispose of our existing one.
Similar background!!!!!!
Niche Market of Specific Apartment Rentals Firstly you have to recognize that the majority of owners on my complex would rather return to the pre-enforcement of the 1995 laws and be able to continue to operate the successful niche market of specific apartment rentals. It appears that our sole agent is not offering an acceptable arrangement, therefore many of the owners would like to arrange something that will be controlled by the owners and would benefit the owner, rather than an unwanted sole agent, who may be difficult to dislodge.
Thats sounds just like a sole agent exactly the same stuff, would you each work in the office in turns? maybe a 2 hour contract a month per owner?
Altamira
08-02-2013, 13:27
Thats sounds just like a sole agent exactly the same stuff, would you each work in the office in turns? maybe a 2 hour contract a month per owner? DIY Sole Agent Our existing sole agent employs several reception staff partly paid by the owners and our community office also has staff also paid by the owners. I think we could easily utilize the existing staff to operate an excellent niche market of specific apartment rentals and I believe the staff are already well versed in that mystical art.
seanocelt
08-02-2013, 13:27
My Uncle worked at Aberdeen fish market. He was a sole agent.
jogger321
08-02-2013, 14:43
My Uncle worked at Aberdeen fish market. He was a sole agent.
David Soul of Starsky & Hutch fame has a brother, Richard that operates in this capacity in Tenerife too apparently or rather that is what he is referred to as by the owners who's apartments he manages
My Uncle worked at Aberdeen fish market. He was a sole agent.
Lol!!!!! Brilliant!
junglejim
08-02-2013, 16:46
Sorry Seano your talking pash , in Aberdeen it's a Fash Market!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpYxhVEyOdI
DIY Sole Agent Our existing sole agent employs several reception staff partly paid by the owners and our community office also has staff also paid by the owners. I think we could easily utilize the existing staff to operate an excellent niche market of specific apartment rentals and I believe the staff are already well versed in that mystical art.
Removing your existing sole agent and replace them with a collaboration of owners is still a sole agent.
Are you suggesting that the sole agent be run by the existing community staff if so is that possible for a community to run a business?
seanocelt
09-02-2013, 04:18
Tempting to say my "sole agent" gag compliments some of the posts on this thread as a "red herring". Been a few lately.
Tempting to say my "sole agent" gag compliments some of the posts on this thread as a "red herring". Been a few lately.
Ok Sean no need to "harp" on about it
You will never see a "Sole agent" down at eel :spin:
You will never see a "Sole agent" down at eel :spin:
Shouldn't these gags be on the "Illegal Nettings Thread"...:laugh:
Altamira
09-02-2013, 11:33
Removing your existing sole agent and replace them with a collaboration of owners is still a sole agent.
Are you suggesting that the sole agent be run by the existing community staff if so is that possible for a community to run a business?
DIY Sole Agent Owners don't need to flounder they could form a sole agency. I think as individuals they could school together, the best format would be to set it up as a limited company, with limited liabilities. The owners could then avoid having a monopolistic sole agent who may be difficult to dislodge. The end result would mean that the share holding owners would have control of the apartments and could operate a niche market of specific apartment rentals, however they would need to conform with the tourist apartment laws.
That sounds like a sole agent?
Altamira
09-02-2013, 12:19
That sounds like a sole agent?
Sole Agent Limited Company Yes, the formation of a limited company, would become the sole agent and controlled by the share holders. However the share holders would need to contain the majority of tourist apartment owners, otherwise it could easily flounder.
That sounds like a sole agent?
basically its a sensible way round the current daft law. Just form a friendly pretend sole agency, fully compliant with the current daft law, and carry on all letting as individuals as before. Just have the friendly sole agency in place to keep tourismo happy.
could be like the 3 bears in the cartoon in the wonderland zoo, everyone hurrying round to make the place look like a sole agent hotel if the inspectors come calling, then back to reality afterwards.
seanocelt
09-02-2013, 12:24
We know Loaded meant "carp" ;-)
If what Altamira is suggesting is a kind of sole agency run by the community,I just want to ask if you have ever been to a community AGM or commitee meeting? I can imagine the situation with the apartment owners owning tourist licence/ agency and the arguments which would ensue;
1.Why has he got 40 weeks rentals and I've only got 39?
2.Why does she have all the couples and I get all the families.
3.I'm Russian why are you sending me information in English?
4.I only want to advertise for clients in UK.Well I only want Belgian clients:
5.Why am I only getting 300 Euros a week for my apartment and Pablo is getting 350 Euros?
6.I don't like the girl on reception,I think my daughter should have the job.
7.She's Fernandos daughter what's wrong with her?
It is almost impossible to agree what colour to paint the front door in most community AGM's, it would be totally impossible to run a community rental office but it would be fun to watch you try.
If what Altamira is suggesting is a kind of sole agency run by the community,I just want to ask if you have ever been to a community AGM or commitee meeting? I can imagine the situation with the apartment owners owning tourist licence/ agency and the arguments which would ensue;
1.Why has he got 40 weeks rentals and I've only got 39?
2.Why does she have all the couples and I get all the families.
3.I'm Russian why are you sending me information in English?
4.I only want to advertise for clients in UK.Well I only want Belgian clients:
5.Why am I only getting 300 Euros a week for my apartment and Pablo is getting 350 Euros?
6.I don't like the girl on reception,I think my daughter should have the job.
7.She's Fernandos daughter what's wrong with her?
It is almost impossible to agree what colour to paint the front door in most community AGM's, it would be totally impossible to run a community rental office but it would be fun to watch you try.
you have a point, it would be very difficult to get the agm to agree to form an agency, but forget the issues about weeks booked , type of clients etc, this plan is a pretend sole agency, in reality the individual owners will continue to take their own bookings and send their own clients, its all all secret plan to fool tourismo and continue as before. the agency would in the eyes of tourismo register the bookings and admin.
when in rome do as the romans, this is how the catalan language survived franco for 40 years.
basically its a sensible way round the current daft law. Just form a friendly pretend sole agency, fully compliant with the current daft law, and carry on all letting as individuals as before. Just have the friendly sole agency in place to keep tourismo happy.
could be like the 3 bears in the cartoon in the wonderland zoo, everyone hurrying round to make the place look like a sole agent hotel if the inspectors come calling, then back to reality afterwards.
I quite get what he was referring to, you sound like a right cowboy property owner nelson a proper man in a pub mentality.
Altamira
09-02-2013, 12:46
If what Altamira is suggesting is a kind of sole agency run by the community,I just want to ask if you have ever been to a community AGM or commitee meeting? I can imagine the situation with the apartment owners owning tourist licence/ agency and the arguments which would ensue;
1.Why has he got 40 weeks rentals and I've only got 39?
2.Why does she have all the couples and I get all the families.
3.I'm Russian why are you sending me information in English?
4.I only want to advertise for clients in UK.Well I only want Belgian clients:
5.Why am I only getting 300 Euros a week for my apartment and Pablo is getting 350 Euros?
6.I don't like the girl on reception,I think my daughter should have the job.
7.She's Fernandos daughter what's wrong with her?
It is almost impossible to agree what colour to paint the front door in most community AGM's, it would be totally impossible to run a community rental office but it would be fun to watch you try.
Sole Agent Limited Company I have a long experience in dealing with a variety of AGM's and Committees. However I am not saying that the sole agency is run by the community, instead it would be run by a limited company controlled by the share holders, however for it to work successfully the share holders would need to contain the majority of apartment owners.
Normally a limited company is managed by a Managing Director who would be expected to sort out any problems, but some businesses do encounter periodic issues. I understand that Altamira is already run by a sole agent that is part of a larger limited company. Therefore if they can do it then so can a new company.
I quite get what he was referring to, you sound like a right cowboy property owner nelson a proper man in a pub mentality.
Each owner could be pretend receptionist on a rota during their holiday , on a rota .so when it was my turn I would be on sunbed but on standby, having to jump up and run to reception if tourismo turned up, pulling on clothes etc, then all clear when they go
Please remember the maximum fine for an agent is far greater than that for an individual owner, €300'000.00 as opposed to €30'000.00.
Your little "secret plan to fool Turismo" has huge fine written all over it!
Good luck, you will need it.
So what you are saying is you have a way of reducing the profit a sole agent would get for their work.
But yet still have wages, an office, someone to man it etc etc
You still wouldn't be able to manage your own bookings individually and advertise individually.
Please remember the maximum fine for an agent is far greater than that for an individual owner, €300'000.00 as opposed to €30'000.00.
Your little "secret plan to fool Turismo" has huge fine written all over it!
Good luck, you will need it.
But the agency would be an asset less limited company, fine level not an issue,
Ps, I was joking you know oasis, the three bears in wonderland zoo were a cartoon, not real bears in a zoo
Altamira
09-02-2013, 13:21
So what you are saying is you have a way of reducing the profit a sole agent would get for their work.
But yet still have wages, an office, someone to man it etc etc
You still wouldn't be able to manage your own bookings individually and advertise individually.
Sole Agent Limited Company In relation to Altamira it would ensure a far greater return than the present sole agent. Yes you are correct,there are some company management costs to be taken into account. I think the new model sole agency, could operate a niche market allowing for individual advertizing & bookings of specific tourist apartments. It would be in the best interests of the sole agency shareholders to encourage multi- marketing of the apartments under its control.
Sole Agent Limited Company In relation to Altamira it would ensure a far greater return than the present sole agent. Yes you are correct,there are some company management costs to be taken into account. I think the new model sole agency, could operate a niche market allowing for individual advertizing & bookings of specific tourist apartments. It would be in the best interests of the sole agency shareholders to encourage multi- marketing of the apartments under its control.
Individual advertising and bookings is why owners are being fined!
Individual advertising and bookings is why owners are being fined!
Surely they're allowed to advertise as long as the booking goes through the agent?
delderek
09-02-2013, 13:35
As a matter of interest, a company was formed by the community on Royal Palm, many years ago, when the new laws were in their infancy, to run the lettings in the event of Sole agent problems. It never traded and was wound up a couple of years ago. But it proves it can be done.
Surely they're allowed to advertise as long as the booking goes through the agent?
Grey area but acceptable if the payments go through the agent and tax deducted etc.... However the last few posts are considering doing it themselves and using the agent as a cover!
Altamira
09-02-2013, 13:42
Individual advertising and bookings is why owners are being fined!
Tourist Law I am not aware that individual advertizing or booking is actually illegal, however I believe it would be illegal if this was not ultimately managed or agreed via the Sole Agent and the advert could be used as evidence of an offence, but only if it was unauthorized by the sole agent.
As a matter of interest, a company was formed by the community on Royal Palm, many years ago, when the new laws were in their infancy, to run the lettings in the event of Sole agent problems. It never traded and was wound up a couple of years ago. But it proves it can be done.
Correct a limited company was set up to take over the sole agent but the agreement between the then agent and the community never materialised. It was also in place when Mick & Roni were retiring and the future of the letting office was undecided. It is easy to form a limited company but without the registrations it is a pointless and costly exercise.
The main issue here is for somebody or some company to be responsible for the licence. If initially they can get an individual, or group, to organise the requirement then consideration as to who or what company holds the licence should be dealt with at that time. Don't waste monies unnecessarily.
Altamira
09-02-2013, 13:53
Grey area but acceptable if the payments go through the agent and tax deducted etc.... However the last few posts are considering doing it themselves and using the agent as a cover!
Sole Agent Limited Company It is important that we all operate within the law and I would never suggest using a sole agent as a cover for apartment owners acting illegally. I am suggesting a new model of sole agent that benefits the owner and offers a niche market for the tourist who may have specific apartment requirements. The multi-marketing would increase the amount of tourists to Tenerife, after all this is what the Tenerife tourist industry is calling out for.
Grey area but acceptable if the payments go through the agent and tax deducted etc.... However the last few posts are considering doing it themselves and using the agent as a cover!
Remember , if the agent front takes the booking and registers it and it matters not who passes it on, thompsons, air tours , me. Likewise price matters not, I assume Altamira is aiming for minimal non profit for the agent.
Fonica made the best point, explaining how owners would argue over booked weeks and type of client, sort of from her own sole agent mouth proof that sole agency harms customer choice and welfare.
Like imagine the scene on our place, suddenly after years of free choice of apartment the clients arrive to be told which one the agent will put them in.
Fornica sort of dams sole agency with that one, better than we could have done
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Sole Agent Limited Company It is important that we all operate within the law and I would never suggest using a sole agent as a cover for apartment owners acting illegally. I am suggesting a new model of sole agent that benefits the owner and offers a niche market for the tourist who may have specific apartment requirements. The multi-marketing would increase the amount of tourists to Tenerife, after all this is what the Tenerife tourist industry is calling out for.
Yes you are, but still sort of makes the agent an unnecessary appendage to have, a parasite to feed
Oh Nelson , I wish I was a sole agent but I'm just a semi-retired pensioner who has strong views about how laws applying to tourism affect the general wellbeing of the island and affect my children and grandchildren’s future here.
You really can't assume that anybody who disagrees with you is a sole agent.I've been here a long time and seen many changes in the island and its tourism,there isn't a solution that will please everyone but there is a solution that will protect the tourist and the people who work and pay --- here and that is not your solution but the GOOD sole agent.How you get rid of the bad agents is another question but I sure if a small amount of the energy used on this thread was directed at the problem it could be solved.
Tourist Law I am not aware that individual advertizing or booking is actually illegal, however I believe it would be illegal if this was not ultimately managed or agreed via the Sole Agent and the advert could be used as evidence of an offence, but only if it was unauthorized by the sole agent.
I would say it is illegal:
"ley 142/2010 - Artículo 2.- Definiciones.
a) Establecimiento turístico de alojamiento: el
inmueble, conjunto de inmuebles o la parte de los
mismos que, junto a sus bienes muebles, constituye
una unidad funcional y de comercialización
autónoma, cuya explotación corresponde a una única
empresa que oferta servicios de alojamiento con
fines turísticos, acompañados o no de otros servicios
complementarios."
Which means:
a) tourist accommodation establishment: a property, or set of properties or part of the properties - together with their interior furniture, constitutes a functional unit which can be individually commercialized, said commercialization corresponds to a sole company that offers services of accommodation with touristic goals ("ends"), accompanied or not with other complementary services.
Or in laymans terms; tourist accommodation is a unit, or set of units that can be rented individually by one company that offers tourist accommodation.
and ley 7/1995, article 38:
"Artículo 38.- Principio de unidad de explotación.
1. La explotación turística de los establecimientos alojativos, en sus distintas modalidades, deberá efectuarse bajo el principio de unidad de explotación."
"Article 38 - principal of unity of exploitation.
1. the touristic exploitation of the accommodation establishments, in their different types, should be carried out under the principle of unity of exploitaion."
So basically a load of owners renting their own apartments is not "unity of exploitation" it's "multitude of exploitation".
Altamira .... perhaps you should bring your proposed ideas to the attention of the president and other committee members. I did suggest a very similar scenario a year ago but the President was insistent that he would have no part in it. Maybe it should be raised as a topic of discussion at the AGM pre-meeting.
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I would say it is illegal:
"ley 142/2010 - Artículo 2.- Definiciones.
a) Establecimiento turístico de alojamiento: el
inmueble, conjunto de inmuebles o la parte de los
mismos que, junto a sus bienes muebles, constituye
una unidad funcional y de comercialización
autónoma, cuya explotación corresponde a una única
empresa que oferta servicios de alojamiento con
fines turísticos, acompañados o no de otros servicios
complementarios."
Which means:
a) tourist accommodation establishment: a property, or set of properties or part of the properties - together with their interior furniture, constitutes a functional unit which can be individually commercialized, said commercialization corresponds to a sole company that offers services of accommodation with touristic goals ("ends"), accompanied or not with other complementary services.
Or in laymans terms; tourist accommodation is a unit, or set of units that can be rented individually by one company that offers tourist accommodation.
and ley 7/1995, article 38:
"Artículo 38.- Principio de unidad de explotación.
1. La explotación turística de los establecimientos alojativos, en sus distintas modalidades, deberá efectuarse bajo el principio de unidad de explotación."
"Article 38 - principal of unity of exploitation.
1. the touristic exploitation of the accommodation establishments, in their different types, should be carried out under the principle of unity of exploitaion."
So basically a load of owners renting their own apartments is not "unity of exploitation" it's "multitude of exploitation".
But surely a web-site advertising the entire complex could be created. The web-site could include individual adverts for each individual apartment available for rent, along the lines of the holiday-rentals websites we are all familiar with. Any booking enquiry would be directed to the individual owner (or the agent if the owner preferred), but the rent would be paid to the agent. The agent would take a percentage cut of the rent to cover costs for cleaning, paperwork etc and the remaining rent would be passed onto the owner.
its still not unity of exploitation though is it? thats "unity of web marketing with all the enquiries going to multiple people to individually let properties."
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bottom line is that the properties can be individually rented and marketed - but only by one company.
its still not unity of exploitation though is it? thats "unity of web marketing with all the enquiries going to multiple people to individually let properties."
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bottom line is that the properties can be individually rented and marketed - but only by one company.
So if all enquiries went to the agent for him/her to deal with, that would comply?
So if all enquiries went to the agent for him/her to deal with, that would comply?
sure would. Enquiries for all properties go to sole agent, sole agent deals with client, sole agent distributes bookings.
Interesting ...... but it still doesn't deal with the bigger issue of removing Konrad!!!!!!
Altamira
09-02-2013, 16:40
Altamira .... perhaps you should bring your proposed ideas to the attention of the president and other committee members. I did suggest a very similar scenario a year ago but the President was insistent that he would have no part in it. Maybe it should be raised as a topic of discussion at the AGM pre-meeting.
I think that ultimately all final bookings and payments would need to pass through the sole agent company and the appropriate taxes would need to be paid.
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But surely a web-site advertising the entire complex could be created. The web-site could include individual adverts for each individual apartment available for rent, along the lines of the holiday-rentals websites we are all familiar with. Any booking enquiry would be directed to the individual owner (or the agent if the owner preferred), but the rent would be paid to the agent. The agent would take a percentage cut of the rent to cover costs for cleaning, paperwork etc and the remaining rent would be passed onto the owner.
Sole Agent Limited Company I do not rent out my apartment, but I agree this issue needs to be discussed at the AGM pre-meeting. However I think that if we were to set up a Sole Agency Limited Company, we would firstly need to have access to all the owners names & addresses, so that they can be invited to become a investor/shareholders in the Company. This is a niche market for specific types of apartments that needs to be exploited by the owner/shareholders and therefore it supports the Tenerife tourist industry. I believe such a company can fulfill the tourist law requirements.
The administrator will have all the owner's contact details.
Altamira
09-02-2013, 17:08
The administrator will have all the owner's contact details.
Information Access I wonder if the administrator would consider that the names, addresses including emails, to be Private & Confidential and therefore be unwilling to hand it over. I wonder who actually owns the time share apartments.
Sole Agent Limited Company I do not rent out my apartment, but I agree this issue needs to be discussed at the AGM pre-meeting. However I think that if we were to set up a Sole Agency Limited Company, we would firstly need to have access to all the owners names & addresses, so that they can be invited to become a investor/shareholders in the Company. This is a niche market for specific types of apartments that needs to be exploited by the owner/shareholders and therefore it supports the Tenerife tourist industry. I believe such a company can fulfill the tourist law requirements.
theoretically it could work but :
lets say there are 100 owners and all own the same type of apartment - this makes them a 1% shareholder in the company.
I'm assuming together they'd create an "owners direct style" website where cusomters would contact members of the company (individual owners) to book an apartment (their apartment).
The costs (reception, staff, company fees, legal fees) of the limited company would obviously be split according to your share holding - ie: if you own 10 apartments you pay 10% of the bills etc.
How would you split the profits if for example; "Owner A" generates 45 weeks in his apartment, "owner B" only manages 20 weeks because he tries less / his apartment is crap........... surely the company profits would be have to be divided up according to shareholder stake - therefore underperforming shareholders would be making money off of the ones who try hardest.
Then there's the tax split.......
sounds messy.
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Information Access I wonder if the administrator would consider that the names, addresses including emails, to be Private & Confidential and therefore be unwilling to hand it over. I wonder who actually owns the time share apartments.
they are not alowed to give out these details. ley de protecion de datos
Information Access I wonder if the administrator would consider that the names, addresses including emails, to be Private & Confidential and therefore be unwilling to hand it over. I wonder who actually owns the time share apartments.
I believe the time-share apartments are owned by Konrad. The administrator would not need to hand over the owners' details, any correspondence could be passed to the administrator, who could then pass it on to the owners. Owners who replied would agree to having their details passed on to whoever was organising your master plan!
Altamira
09-02-2013, 17:42
theoretically it could work but :
lets say there are 100 owners and all own the same type of apartment - this makes them a 1% shareholder in the company.
I'm assuming together they'd create an "owners direct style" website where cusomters would contact members of the company (individual owners) to book an apartment (their apartment).
The costs (reception, staff, company fees, legal fees) of the limited company would obviously be split according to your share holding - ie: if you own 10 apartments you pay 10% of the bills etc.
How would you split the profits if for example; "Owner A" generates 45 weeks in his apartment, "owner B" only manages 20 weeks because he tries less / his apartment is crap........... surely the company profits would be have to be divided up according to shareholder stake - therefore underperforming shareholders would be making money off of the ones who try hardest.
Then there's the tax split.......
sounds messy.
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they are not alowed to give out these details. ley de protecion de datos
Sole Agent Limited Company Hotels do offer different classes of rooms for rent with different charges, I think in the case of Altamira this could just as easily apply. The better class of rooms may be more in demand, but this niche market gives the tourist the freedom to choose.
Company Dividends, I think the ideal situation would be for the company to organise its profits so that dividends do not become an issue.
Taxation, I think for management reasons it would be better if all bookings were finally processed by the Company and that the company receives the actual payments and therefore pays the appropriate tax. The owner would receive their agreed amount less deductions and the owner would be accountable for their own tax, this is supposed to be what is already happening with the existing sole agent system.
Sole Agent Limited Company Hotels do offer different classes of rooms for rent with different charges, I think in the case of Altamira this could just as easily apply. The better class of rooms may be more in demand, but this niche market gives the tourist the freedom to choose.
Company Dividends, I think the ideal situation would be for the company to organise its profits so that dividends do not become an issue.
Taxation, I think for management reasons it would be better if all bookings were finally processed by the Company and that the company receives the actual payments and therefore pays the appropriate tax. The owner would receive their agreed amount less deductions and the owner would be accountable for their own tax, this is supposed to be what is already happening with the existing sole agent system.
but "the company" is 100 different owners......
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so basiaclly you're opting for the sole agent system completely?
but "the company" is 100 different owners......
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so basiaclly you're opting for the sole agent system completely?
As that's the only system that is legal ..... yes. The difference being the owners wouldn't be dictated to by Konrad. They could use their own apartments when they want ... rather than just four weeks a year. Plus they could improve their apartment, rather than standardise it to Konrads specifications. Plus they would have a far greater involvement in the rental of their property.
We are not denying that the sole agent route CAN work .... simply that it doesn't under the current regime at Altamira.
Personally I believe that the sole agent system should just be one of many options available to owners of many different types of properties ..... but we all know that's not an option so have to work with what options are available.
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Another option for Altamira would be to persuade Konrad to allow another agent to operate alongside him. The second agent would be covered under his licence but would be allowed to offer a more flexible way of working. Each owner registered with the second agent would pay an annual fee to Konrad to allow them to appear on his licence .... but would be marketed etc by the second agent.
so your solution to the law that requires one company to be in charge of all the tourist rentals on your complex is to start a company to be in charge of all the tourist rentals on your complex?
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Another option for Altamira would be to persuade Konrad to allow another agent to operate alongside him. The second agent would be covered under his licence but would be allowed to offer a more flexible way of working. Each owner registered with the second agent would pay an annual fee to Konrad to allow them to appear on his licence .... but would be marketed etc by the second agent.
and then konrad would be liable for all of the second companys fines..........
Altamira
09-02-2013, 18:23
but "the company" is 100 different owners......
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so basiaclly you're opting for the sole agent system completely?
Sole Agent Limited Company The Company would become the sole agent and would be treated as a single entity. I am suggesting that this may be the best option for Altamira, but only if the 1995 law is going to continue to be enforced. This model may not be necessary for complexes that already have a satisfactory sole agent agreement.
so your solution to the law that requires one company to be in charge of all the tourist rentals on your complex is to start a company to be in charge of all the tourist rentals on your complex?
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Are you implying that the owners in Altamira should just accept the conditions insisted upon by Konrad? Other agents seem unwilling to go up against his company so setting up an agency of owners seems a perfectly viable option. Just hoping for the law to go away is not very productive either!
and then konrad would be liable for all of the second companys fines..........
Which is precisely why he turned down that option when I presented it to him! I had hoped a legal agreement could be set up whereby the second agent would be liable for their own fines ..... but his lawyers thought there were far too many headaches. Fair enough.
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Sorry ... i've not set out that post correctly!! Apologies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So back to the sole agent again
You guys sure know how to complicate things
Sole Agent Limited Company I have a long experience in dealing with a variety of AGM's and Committees. However I am not saying that the sole agency is run by the community, instead it would be run by a limited company controlled by the share holders, however for it to work successfully the share holders would need to contain the majority of apartment owners.
Normally a limited company is managed by a Managing Director who would be expected to sort out any problems, but some businesses do encounter periodic issues. I understand that Altamira is already run by a sole agent that is part of a larger limited company. Therefore if they can do it then so can a new company.
sounds easy but isn't. Owners can sell their shares to none owners and if someone has a debt the essets of all shareholders can be embargoed.
Altamira
09-02-2013, 19:25
sounds easy but isn't. Owners can sell their shares to none owners and if someone has a debt the essets of all shareholders can be embargoed. Shareholders Why would a non owner wish to purchase shares in what would effectively be a non profit making company? Perhaps the shares issues can be organized so that they can only be transferred to the other shareholders. Not sure about if someone has a debt, however I will give you this scenario, if someone has a debt and he has shares in Santander are you seriously suggesting that the assets of all of Santanders shareholders can be embargoed.
So back to the sole agent again
You guys sure know how to complicate things
Sorry .... I must be missing your point. I believe that the only legal way for a touristic complex to operate is via a sole agent. Altamira has a sole agent who is offering such strict restrictions to the owners that there are only a few willing to work with him. He holds the licence but the majority of the names on his licence are unaware that they are there!!!!! If only the owners currently working with Konrad were on the licence the complex would lose it's touristic status and become dormant. Most owners want letting to be allowed on the complex ... but not via his company as he refuses to review his terms. The only option is to get him out (not sure how??????????????) and bring in another agent. Other agents seem unwilling to take him on ..... so the person who posts under the name of Altamira has come up with a possible option.
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Just to make our position clear ..... "Altamira" does not rent his/her apartment out. I had two apartments on Altamira that I stopped taking bookings on when all of this first came about. I have now sold one and have the other sat empty with a big fat "For Sale" sign on it. So whatever the solution to altamira's problem is ... it'll benefit neither of us. (Apart from possibly in resale value terms). However it is a beautiful complex and the only complex inbetween Fañabe and Playa Paraiso which has a touristic licence ..... it would be a terrible shame to see it lose that status, (in my opinion.)
The Law already has a way of gaining the sole agent on a tourist complex why on earth you are not going down that route?instead of wanting to make an S.L company of non profit shareholders where you want to sub categorize everyone's apartment into size, decor etc etc
Hence my remark You guys sure know how to complicate things
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