View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
The Law already has a way of gaining the sole agent on a tourist complex why on earth you are not going down that route?instead of wanting to make an S.L company of non profit shareholders where you want to sub categorize everyone's apartment into size, decor etc etc
Hence my remark You guys sure know how to complicate things
Excuse my ignorance ..... what is that route?
Excuse my ignorance ..... what is that route?
50% + 1.......
50% + 1.......
Ok ...... . In order to obtain 50%+1 with an agent, we would need to find an agent willing to go up against Konrad. As there are very few agents of the calibre of Loaded, there are scant few to choose from! None seem willing to take on the wrath of Konrad so we are having to try to come up with an alternative solution as we don't wish to loose our Touristic status.
I wish you good luck with your company but i like to bed that, after obtaining legal advice, you will not proceed.
Wimpen leisure in playa paraiso might be interested and is, as far as i know, a reliable company.
Ok ...... . In order to obtain 50%+1 with an agent, we would need to find an agent willing to go up against Konrad. As there are very few agents of the calibre of Loaded, there are scant few to choose from! None seem willing to take on the wrath of Konrad so we are having to try to come up with an alternative solution as we don't wish to loose our Touristic status.
Basically all this discussion once again shows how absurd sole agency is,. Altamira proposal is sole agent lite, a hybrid of the current situation , in effect a community agency that handles the admin of the many private owners. Really an unnecessary set up , but an attempt to try to work within the current daft law.
Fornicas point about owners arguing over booking levels and types of client remains the main and most important point , adopting an agent is madness if it upsets customers who want to chose their apartment to holiday in. Why or why should the canary govt want a daft system to run holiday rentals that ends up upsetting the customers.
It's plain nonsense. The sole agents on here don't want to see altamiras agent lite hybrid because it shows they are an artificial and unnecessary add on, not needed in the real world at all
Become your own agent, start your own thing, but lets not complicate it more than it has to be, someone somewhere will want to make a profit and have to cover overheads, and that means being able to rent out your apartment for the maximum weeks possible and not hey guys use your apartment how you like and ill rent it out inbetween.
Being a sole agent is just siting in a office.
Become your own agent, start your own thing, but lets not complicate it more than it has to be, someone somewhere will want to make a profit and have to cover overheads, and that means being able to rent out your apartment for the maximum weeks possible and not hey guys use your apartment how you like and ill rent it out inbetween.
Being a sole agent is just siting in a office.
But 9 plus, in the real world no one actually needs them to rent out holiday homes. A tailors dummy would suffice in terms of practice benefit.
Has anyone found any of the breed outside Spain yet?
But 9 plus, in the real world no one actually needs them to rent out holiday homes. A tailors dummy would suffice in terms of practice benefit.
Has anyone found any of the breed outside Spain yet?
All what you have said means nothing nelson, they are the real world as you refer to, they are the Law, they are staying, it does not matter one little bit if it only happens on your complex, in Tenerife, in the Canaries or happens no where else in the world.
It happening here. <--------FULL STOP
All what you have said means nothing nelson, they are the real world as you refer to, they are the Law, they are staying, it does not matter one little bit if it only happens on your complex, in Tenerife, in the Canaries or happens no where else in
It happening here. <--------FULL STOP
That's reassuring to know , I am happy to be told that all this insane sole agency nonsense is canary law, unknown anywhere else on the globe. I can't stand any attempt to argue that it has any merit or logic or benefit to exist.
Spain needs to keep walking from dictatorship to den
Democracy , then we can all expect free legal holiday home renting, it will come, sooner than you might think, there's no stopping reality and commonsense.
In the meantime get in bed with the sole agent so you don't end up getting another €30,000 fine.
Question have you decided to deposit it, pay or wait for the outcome?
Just like to know what people are deciding to do.
Yet again these tourism Laws have nothing to do with Spain
Malteser Monkey
09-02-2013, 23:59
In the meantime get in bed with the sole agent so you don't end up getting another €30,000 fine.
Question have you decided to deposit it, pay or wait for the outcome?
Just like to know what people are deciding to do.
Yet again these tourism Laws have nothing to do with Spain
:sleeping: wot u doing up ?
:sleeping: wot u doing up ?
I'm working on a new project
I'm working on a new project
S Y S SOLE AGENT PROJECT.Don't you'd kill em!!!!
@ Kath
You will find the official stats for both passenger numbers and aircraft movements here.
They don't support your point very well ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_South_Airport
It onlyshows figures up to 2011 Im quoting official figures for 2012
It onlyshows figures up to 2011 Im quoting official figures for 2012
I would like to see where those official figures are please
Altamira
10-02-2013, 11:57
I wish you good luck with your company but i like to bed that, after obtaining legal advice, you will not proceed.
Wimpen leisure in playa paraiso might be interested and is, as far as i know, a reliable company.
Sole Agent LImited Company Hello Rene, I had responded to your earlier comments, I assume you are satisfied that share transfers can be contained to only apply to apartment owners? and that if any owner was to be in debt that it would not have any impact on the other shareholders i.e. no embargo on the other shareholder assets?
You are now commenting that we would not proceed after taking legal advice, what makes you think that the advice would be so negative that we would not wish to proceed?
Altamira, if 200 apartments were to be reasonably booked out they could each earn 20000 euros;
200 x 20000 = 4 million euros for the owners. The present sole agent system is only offering 1 million euros, therefore the owners are collectively loosing 3 million euros.
Management Costs, the Altamira owners via the new sole agent company, would have the potential to earn 4 million less management costs. I think the actual cost would be negligible, perhaps 10 staff x 20000 = 200000 euros + 50000 for other costs total 250000 euros.
The bottom line is that the owners have the potential to be collectively making just a bit short of 4 million compared to the present potential of 1 million.
How much does Altamira cost to rent on a weekly basis?
How much does Konrad pay the owners?
Does Konrad pay anything on behalf of owners? Electrics , water, community ?
Altamira
10-02-2013, 12:27
How much does Altamira cost to rent on a weekly basis?
How much does Konrad pay the owners?
Does Konrad pay anything on behalf of owners? Electrics , water, community ?
Altamira If the apartments were fully booked and because of the location many are in huge demand. I therefore used an average of around 400 euros per week x 52 weeks = 20800, however some apartments charge more.
Konrad, I believe he only offers 4800, but I understand he also make a contribution towards the community charge, this includes electricity and water
So the apartment owner looses an aprox potential of around 15000 euros per year.
Konrad, I believe they also own around 40 time share apartments and the reception.
junglejim
10-02-2013, 12:46
How much does Altamira cost to rent on a weekly basis?
How much does Konrad pay the owners?
Does Konrad pay anything on behalf of owners? Electrics , water, community ?
More importantly .how much does Konrad charge to rent the apartments & what sort of killing is he making?
eg http://www.booking.com/searchresults.html?city=-369166&ssne=Adeje&ssne_untouched=Adeje&error_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.booking.com%2Fhotel%2Fe s%2Fhovima-altamira.es.html%3Faid%3D311090%3Blabel%3Dhovima-altamira-WeOM6%252A0HhWiSp61KAU_OqwS16645321260%253Apl%253A ta%253Ap1%253Ap2%253Aac%253Aap1t1%253Aneg%3Bsid%3D 0faddfab0bad3a2106150804445b7d3b%3Bdcid%3D1%3B&highlighted_hotels=385123&src=hotel&aid=311090&dcid=1&label=hovima-altamira-WeOM6*0HhWiSp61KAU_OqwS16645321260%3Apl%3Ata%3Ap1% 3Ap2%3Aac%3Aap1t1%3Aneg&lang=es&sid=0faddfab0bad3a2106150804445b7d3b&si=ai%2Cco%2Cci%2Cre%2Cdi&ss=Adeje&checkin_monthday=12&checkin_year_month=2013-8&checkout_monthday=19&checkout_year_month=2013-8&org_nr_rooms=1&org_nr_adults=2&org_nr_children=0&group_config=&group_adults=2&group_children=0&dest_type=city&dest_id=-369166
Ok - for a start 52 weeks bookings for every apartment is ridiculously optimistic. You should base your expectations on an average of 40 weeks per apartment - which is a good and realistic return.
I agree with your average rental fee of 400 having done my own checks.
This brings us to 16000 euros generated by each apartment.
Remember that 7% of this is igic tax....
1046 euros in igic
Of that 16000 it can be reasonably expected that not all of the bookings are direct - with commissions from travel agents and tour operators (who you will still need to stand a change of filling 200 apartments for 40 weeks per year ) ranging from 10-25% .... Lets settle on an average of 15% of that 16000....
That's 2400 in commission per apartment
So:
16000
-2400
-1046
=12554 euros
Then pay the owners 4800...
12554 - 4800 = 7754 euros
Then deduct the "contribution to community fees" which I'm going to guess is around 1200 euros per apartment per year.
This leaves Konrad 7754 euros - 1200 = 6554 as his net profit before;
Cost of running reception and paying cleaning staff .... Estimate 15 staff; let's say including social security 250000 euros per year..... Divided by 200 = 1250 per apartment per month.
6554-1250 = 5304 euros pre tax profit per apartment.
He will be paying tax at around 50% so his profit per apartment will be aprox 2650 euros per apartment.
welshman
10-02-2013, 13:03
Ok - for a start 52 weeks bookings for every apartment is ridiculously optimistic. You should base your expectations on an average of 40 weeks per apartment - which is a good and realistic return.
I agree with your average rental fee of 400 having done my own checks.
This brings us to 16000 euros generated by each apartment.
Remember that 7% of this is igic tax....
1046 euros in igic
Of that 16000 it can be reasonably expected that not all of the bookings are direct - with commissions from travel agents and tour operators (who you will still need to stand a change of filling 200 apartments for 40 weeks per year ) ranging from 10-25% .... Lets settle on an average of 15% of that 16000....
That's 2400 in commission per apartment
So:
16000
-2400
-1046
=12554 euros
Then pay the owners 4800...
12554 - 4800 = 7754 euros
Then deduct the "contribution to community fees" which I'm going to guess is around 1200 euros per apartment per year.
This leaves Konrad 7754 euros - 1200 = 6554 as his net profit before;
Cost of running reception and paying cleaning staff .... Estimate 15 staff; let's say including social security 250000 euros per year..... Divided by 200 = 1250 per apartment per month.
6554-1250 = 5304 euros pre tax profit per apartment.
He will be paying tax at around 50% so his profit per apartment will be aprox 2650 euros per apartment.
10000 euros a week 500,000 euros PA All boils down to nice little earner!!!
No wonder your called loaded LOL :spin::spin::spin:
junglejim
10-02-2013, 13:03
Konrad pays less to owners in Santa Maria & Panorama with similiar rental charges to Tourists - if experience is anything to go by , apart from his maids , a fair whack of technico & reception costs on site are supplemented by community -he also has a centralised reservation and admin team for all his Hovima Org. He probably has 700 - 1,000 apartments on rental at any one time- nice bucks !
[QUOTE=9PLUS;262018]In the meantime get in bed with the sole agent so you don't end up getting another €30,000 fine.
Question have you decided to deposit it, pay or wait for the outcome?
Just like to know what people are deciding to do.
I am sure I posted our fine update a bit back, but just to clarify we took a bank guarantee , there is no further interest and if we win we get the money back straight away, also sorry to dent your schadenfreude a little bit but our fine was originally 23000 euro reduced to 15000 euro on first appeal. It's not 30000 euro, they don't fine more for multi apartment ownership, it's one fine per advert
10000 euros a week 500,000 euros PA All boils down to nice little earner!!!
No wonder your called loaded LOL :spin::spin::spin:
No ones saying it doesn't make him money, it's just that it doesn't make him as much money as he makes for the owners.
I am sure I posted our fine update a bit back, but just to clarify we took a bank guarantee , there is no further interest and if we win we get the money back straight away, also sorry to dent your schadenfreude a little bit but our fine was originally 23000 euro reduced to 15000 euro on first appeal. It's not 30000 euro, they don't fine more for multi apartment ownership, it's one fine per advert
Just answer the question
junglejim
10-02-2013, 13:21
No Loaded , he´s not making them any money -he´s depriving them of it as Altimira has demonstrated by unfair use and abuse of the letting law !
No ones saying it doesn't make him money, it's just that it doesn't make him as much money as he makes for the owners.
I should think not if the owners have invested 200,000€ + on their investment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, let's not forget the main gripe that owners have against Konrad is not just the limited return but more importantly the fact that many have spent a lot of money updating their apartments and making them quite luxurious. He would strip them of any plush furniture and place that into storage. And most importantly the owner would only be allowed to use their holiday home for four weeks a year to be taken in May/June, October/November. It's not ALL about the bottom line.
No Loaded , he´s not making them any money -he´s depriving them of it as Altimira has demonstrated by unfair use and abuse of the letting law !
Sorry - explain how he's depriving them of money when he pay them 4800 per year plus community fees?
What Unfair use of letting law ????
Also those monthly staff costs per apartment are only based on him having 200 apartments on Altamira - if he only has 150 take another 400 off his per tax profit.
Altamira
10-02-2013, 13:47
Ok - for a start 52 weeks bookings for every apartment is ridiculously optimistic. You should base your expectations on an average of 40 weeks per apartment - which is a good and realistic return.
I agree with your average rental fee of 400 having done my own checks.
This brings us to 16000 euros generated by each apartment.
Remember that 7% of this is igic tax....
1046 euros in igic
Of that 16000 it can be reasonably expected that not all of the bookings are direct - with commissions from travel agents and tour operators (who you will still need to stand a change of filling 200 apartments for 40 weeks per year ) ranging from 10-25% .... Lets settle on an average of 15% of that 16000....
That's 2400 in commission per apartment
So:
16000
-2400
-1046
=12554 euros
Then pay the owners 4800...
12554 - 4800 = 7754 euros
Then deduct the "contribution to community fees" which I'm going to guess is around 1200 euros per apartment per year.
This leaves Konrad 7754 euros - 1200 = 6554 as his net profit before;
Cost of running reception and paying cleaning staff .... Estimate 15 staff; let's say including social security 250000 euros per year..... Divided by 200 = 1250 per apartment per month.
6554-1250 = 5304 euros pre tax profit per apartment.
He will be paying tax at around 50% so his profit per apartment will be aprox 2650 euros per apartment.
Altamira Niche Market Specific Apartments Bookings, you are correct, it is unlikely that all the rooms would achieve their full potential of bookings. However Altamira is different from other complexes, it is in great demand and I am aware of many of the apartments that were practically fully booked. So I think the Altamira situation changes your calculations.
Charges many of the Altamira rental charges are considerable more than 400 euros per week.
Management Costs, your figure of 250000 is the same as my estimate.
Niche market of specific apartments, I think many of the owners would not wish to be involved with tour operators as the rentals would be geared to specific rooms for the more discerning tourist.
Sole Agent Taxation, the new sole agent company would be paying the majority of the rental back to the owner and therefore the company would not be making much in the way of profit and therefore not paying 50% tax.
Gains, this system has the potential to provide the maximum return for the apartment owner.
timmylish
10-02-2013, 13:51
Altamira Niche Market Specific Apartments Bookings, you are correct, it is unlikely that all the rooms would achieve their full potential of bookings. However Altamira is different from other complexes, it is in great demand and I am aware of many of the apartments that were practically fully booked. So I think the Altamira situation changes your calculations.
Charges many of the Altamira rental charges are considerable more than 400 euros per week.
Management Costs, your figure of 250000 is the same as my estimate.
Niche market of specific apartments, I think many of the owners would not wish to be involved with tour operators as the rentals would be geared to specific rooms for the more discerning tourist.
Sole Agent Taxation, the new sole agent company would be paying the majority of the rental back to the owner and therefore the company would not be making much in the way of profit and therefore not paying 50% tax.
Gains, this system has the potential to provide the maximum return for the apartment owner.
Well, if you can follow that you must be a Philly lawyer!
Altamira Niche Market Specific Apartments Bookings, you are correct, it is unlikely that all the rooms would achieve their full potential of bookings. However Altamira is different from other complexes, it is in great demand and I am aware of many of the apartments that were practically fully booked. So I think the Altamira situation changes your calculations.
Charges many of the Altamira rental charges are considerable more than 400 euros per week.
Management Costs, your figure of 250000 is the same as my estimate.
Niche market of specific apartments, I think many of the owners would not wish to be involved with tour operators as the rentals would be geared to specific rooms for the more discerning tourist.
Sole Agent Taxation, the new sole agent company would be paying the majority of the rental back to the owner and therefore the company would not be making much in the way of profit and therefore not paying 50% tax.
Gains, this system has the potential to provide the maximum return for the apartment owner.
Sorry but there's no way you'd fill 200 apartments without tour operators and travel agents.
You also have to consider that out of the 200 owners it is unlikely that they will all want to be proactive in finding their own bookings - from personal experience there are only about 25% who can be bothered - particularly with the new tax laws, it's a lot of hassle for most.
Your system relies on all of the owners being retired / Have lots of free time , know what they're doing with marketing their own property etc.... Your system does not cater for owners who buy and want someone else to do the grunt work - and those owners are the majority .
Speaks volumes too that out of all of the 200 odd apartments on Altamira , the only person complaining about what the owners get on here is someone who doesn't even rent his apartment .....
and who ends up owning the property when the mortgages are paid off - primarily on the back of the rental receipts, and therefore ultimately has the potential to make the biggest gain of all??
Altamira
10-02-2013, 15:16
Speaks volumes too that out of all of the 200 odd apartments on Altamira , the only person complaining about what the owners get on here is someone who doesn't even rent his apartment .....
Altamira Marketing Marketing, the proposed company would in addition to the owners become heavily involved in the marketing of the Altamira Apartments. The majority of apartments are not presently marketed via travel agents, so this does not appear to be much of an issue.
Rentals, you are correct I do not rent out my apartment, however I was negotiating to purchase other Altamira apartments to rent out, but because of the recent enforcement of the retrospective tourist law, I then pulled out of negotiations. However if a better system of sole agent was to be in place then I may be prepared to purchase other Altamira apartments.
Re-sale values. The recent enforcement of a retrospective tourist law is causing financial difficulties for many owners, who now need to sell. The loss of control over one's own property is detrimental to resale values and this affects all apartment owners whether they rent out or not.
Altamira Marketing Marketing, the proposed company would in addition to the owners become heavily involved in the marketing of the Altamira Apartments. The majority of apartments are not presently marketed via travel agents, so this does not appear to be much of an issue.
.
Altamira is marketed extensively by travel agents - just search google and you'll see it for sale everywhere .
If you are planning to market it yourself then your costs will rise, we currently spend thousands of Euros each month advertising paloma beach and have a booking engine which costs us every time someone books - all of this costs more than the skeleton staff you've factored in, you would also need to spend on SEO to make sure the company website is well placed in the SERPS .
I feel you may have a very small idea of what all these things cost and entail.
Also you haven't addressed how your system helps owners who don't want to get their own bookings
Hey Bill just purchased a little apartment on Altamira, **** yeah gonna rent it out to tourists, **** yeah gonna tell everyone on facebook **** yeah
x
Hey Bill just purchased a little apartment on Altamira, **** yeah gonna rent it out to tourists, **** yeah gonna tell everyone on facebook **** yeah
x
That's marketing 101 lol
Altamira
10-02-2013, 15:53
Altamira is marketed extensively by travel agents - just search google and you'll see it for sale everywhere .
If you are planning to market it yourself then your costs will rise, we currently spend thousands of Euros each month advertising paloma beach and have a booking engine which costs us every time someone books - all of this costs more than the skeleton staff you've factored in, you would also need to spend on SEO to make sure the company website is well placed in the SERPS .
I feel you may have a very small idea of what all these things cost and entail.
Altamira Marketing I was talking about the majority of Altamira Apartments. I had previously examined the Altamira Marketing via Internet travel agents etc. and I found that it was mostly involved with the illegal rentals. Konrad seems to market it via their Hovima brand and via other tour operators, but they do not represent the majority of apartments.
Internet Marketing, I see little difficulty in maximizing optimization, we could utilize and legalize some of the existing internet Altamira marketing.
Costs, I thought we agreed to around 250000 management costs, but if it were to cost more then so be it.
The new company would of course need to have a board of directors probably containing elected apartment owners.
welshman
10-02-2013, 16:23
That's marketing 101 lol
Hi Pal just purchased apartment on Altimira 300k fantastic
But I got to let through Sole agent can only use it when he say,s
But he will give me 4800 euros per annum for my investment.
Pal you should have left your money in the bank
Thats Exploitation !!!!
junglejim
10-02-2013, 16:34
Someone like you Loaded, according to what you say,would pay them more , let them use their apartment more , not make them downgrade their furnishings , not send them illegal threatening letters ,pay them all their contractual income .
If they had their own in house agent they would do much better -I think you are very blinkered or at the ultimate wind-up!
Hi Pal just purchased apartment on Altimira 300k fantastic
But I got to let through Sole agent can only use it when he say,s
But he will give me 4800 euros per annum for my investment.
Pal you should have left your money in the bank
Thats Exploitation !!!!
Great no mortgage?
Not blinkered jim just realistic - the whole ask sounds a lot easier than it is and even If they managed to oust konrad, set it up, and even if they could actually run the place - it still doesn't help an owner who doesn't want to market and book their own apartment .
In my best year , illegal owners direct ad, pre getting fined, we did 93 weeks booked in two apartments, cost of ad £ 220 plus about £ 60 more to run sales, good for filling late availability .
Also oct march we could have filled another 10 to 15 apartments with customers wanting to book but we had to turn down,
Remember loaded and 9 plus, they don't have sole agents anywhere else in the world, holiday homes still get rented out, it's perfectly normal and uncontroversial
Also did your pal with the 300k in the bank not investigate what he'd get out of his investment or did he just wake up one morning , stick a pin in a map and say " I'll by there"..... If he did that he has too much money already and won't be bothered about earning 1000 per year less than Konrad arguably should pay him ..... If he Didn't randomly buy then he's an idiot for not investigating what he's investing in.
In my best year , illegal owners direct ad, pre getting fined, we did 93 weeks booked in two apartments, cost of ad £ 220 plus about £ 60 more to run sales, good for filling late availability .
Also oct march we could have filled another 10 to 15 apartments with customers wanting to book but we had to turn down,
Remember loaded and 9 plus, they don't have sole agents anywhere else in the world, holiday homes still get rented out, it's perfectly normal and uncontroversial
Yes Nelson, any idiot can fill october to march in tenerife . That's not the hard part, could you have filled 10-15 apartments for 46.5 weeks like you did yours? Probably not . Could you fill 200? No way.
junglejim
10-02-2013, 17:00
Not blinkered jim just realistic - the whole ask sounds a lot easier than it is and even If they managed to oust konrad, set it up, and even if they could actually run the place - it still doesn't help an owner who doesn't want to market and book their own apartment .
Sole Agents are the law and that´s it- but not convinced that people that act like Konrad should be allowed to get away with it, especially when they are connected and high up in food chain , smacks of corruption .
People who let now outwith the law know what to expect , they have been well warned !( Unless there is a radical change!)
We are trying to resurrect our licence and set up an sole agent but we are fast running out of brown envelopes !
Altamira
10-02-2013, 17:07
Not blinkered jim just realistic - the whole ask sounds a lot easier than it is and even If they managed to oust konrad, set it up, and even if they could actually run the place - it still doesn't help an owner who doesn't want to market and book their own apartment .
Hello Loaded, I think you have missed the point the new company would be able to market & arrange the bookings for the apartment owner. The new sole agent company would be run as a business, managed by the directors and employ management staff. Such a company is capable of maintaining a higher level of financial returns for the apartment owner.
This model could if required be easily rolled out to other complexes where there is a poor financial return from the sole agent.
Where and to who have you paid these Brown envelopes to?
And you haven't replied to my previous questions.
Hello Loaded, I think you have missed the point the new company would be able to market & arrange the bookings for the apartment owner. The new sole agent company would be run as a business, managed by the directors and employ management staff. Such a company is capable of maintaining a higher level of financial returns for the apartment owner.
This model could if required be easily rolled out to other complexes where there is a poor financial return from the sole agent.
I understand the theory but how much are the directors going to get paid to market my apartment, deal with all potential clients inquiries and direct bookings to my apartment - or will that be free of charge?
Altamira
10-02-2013, 17:13
Also did your pal with the 300k in the bank not investigate what he'd get out of his investment or did he just wake up one morning , stick a pin in a map and say " I'll by there"..... If he did that he has too much money already and won't be bothered about earning 1000 per year less than Konrad arguably should pay him ..... If he Didn't randomly buy then he's an idiot for not investigating what he's investing in.
Pre 1995 Tourist Law It was legal to arrange your own rentals prior to 1995, it is only the enforcement of this retrospective law that is causing all the difficulties for owners, regardless of how much the paid or where they purchased.
But what I'm saying is that of I bought on Altamira in your system, how would I get bookings if I didn't want to find my own???
Altamira
10-02-2013, 17:23
I understand the theory but how much are the directors going to get paid to market my apartment, deal with all potential clients inquiries and direct bookings to my apartment - or will that be free of charge? Management Staff The business would operate like most companies, the day to day operation dealing with bookings, issues & problems etc would be handled by the management staff. The directors would not need to be involved in that area, unless they were wishing to or they were employed to (normal staff wages would apply).
Great sign me up - 52 weeks yeah?
How much do you think Konrad will rent the reception out for?????
Altamira
10-02-2013, 17:35
But what I'm saying is that of I bought on Altamira in your system, how would I get bookings if I didn't want to find my own???
Niche Market Bookings The new sole agent company would need to operate its own website showing all apartments available for bookings. Apartment owners could help promote their own apartments by some personal marketing, but this would need to be ultimately booked via new sole agent company.
More importantly .how much does Konrad charge to rent the apartments & what sort of killing is he making?
eg http://www.booking.com/searchresults.html?city=-369166&ssne=Adeje&ssne_untouched=Adeje&error_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.booking.com%2Fhotel%2Fe s%2Fhovima-altamira.es.html%3Faid%3D311090%3Blabel%3Dhovima-altamira-WeOM6%252A0HhWiSp61KAU_OqwS16645321260%253Apl%253A ta%253Ap1%253Ap2%253Aac%253Aap1t1%253Aneg%3Bsid%3D 0faddfab0bad3a2106150804445b7d3b%3Bdcid%3D1%3B&highlighted_hotels=385123&src=hotel&aid=311090&dcid=1&label=hovima-altamira-WeOM6*0HhWiSp61KAU_OqwS16645321260%3Apl%3Ata%3Ap1% 3Ap2%3Aac%3Aap1t1%3Aneg&lang=es&sid=0faddfab0bad3a2106150804445b7d3b&si=ai%2Cco%2Cci%2Cre%2Cdi&ss=Adeje&checkin_monthday=12&checkin_year_month=2013-8&checkout_monthday=19&checkout_year_month=2013-8&org_nr_rooms=1&org_nr_adults=2&org_nr_children=0&group_config=&group_adults=2&group_children=0&dest_type=city&dest_id=-369166
This is what you get for a incredable £470 per week the standard of the apartment was very basic, with old and / or pretty low quality furniture and equipment, and no effort made with decoration or comfort at all. As an example, we put the kettle on and the hob would not work, and eleven it did work, very heated slowly.We 'd go again, Because of the location, but the price needs to Reflect the very basic nature of everything in the room.
Altamira
10-02-2013, 18:07
How much do you think Konrad will rent the reception out for?????
Reception The Altamira Community already pays towards the reception cost, staff etc. I believe the reception is owned by Konrad, it would be in everyone's interests to allow us to use it, because as the new sole agents we would perhaps be required to manage Konrads time share? along with all the other rentals. However if this was to become an issue we could use other Altamira community owned areas.
seanocelt
10-02-2013, 18:10
Ideas = sky + pie =nobody with the power to do any of it is listening.
Altamira
10-02-2013, 18:15
This is what you get for a incredable £470 per week the standard of the apartment was very basic, with old and / or pretty low quality furniture and equipment, and no effort made with decoration or comfort at all. As an example, we put the kettle on and the hob would not work, and eleven it did work, very heated slowly.We 'd go again, Because of the location, but the price needs to Reflect the very basic nature of everything in the room. Rental Prices Hello Fixer, I assume you are referring to Altamira and I note you are quoting £470 per week, if this is correct it would = around 550 euros per week which is much more that my previous estimates of just 400 euros per week. Such prices add to the case for a better sole agent system to pay a fairer return for the actual owners.
Yeah cos Konrad is going to agree to all of this and charge a modest rent for the use of his reception lol
Yeah cos Konrad is going to agree to all of this and charge a modest rent for the use of his reception lol
Is there a recognised 'procedure' for replacing a Sole Agent? I don't know who Konrad is as quoted so often on here, but there seems to be a lot of unhappiness with him and his ways.
Can people not just 'Vote him out' or is it more complicated than that?
Altamira
10-02-2013, 18:30
Yeah cos Konrad is going to agree to all of this and charge a modest rent for the use of his reception lol Reception Costs It appears that Altamira apartment owners have for the most part had a reasonable working relationship with Konrad. I am sure we could all work very well together and we would only charge Konrad a modest amount for handling his time share!!!!!!!!!
"Hello mr Konrad , will you give up your half a million euro per year business so we can run it for you? Oh and what's a fair amount for reception 400 you say mr Konrad ? Deal!"
Is there a recognised 'procedure' for replacing a Sole Agent? I don't know who Konrad is as quoted so often on here, but there seems to be a lot of unhappiness with him and his ways.
Can people not just 'Vote him out' or is it more complicated than that?
The procedure is ;
Get more than half of the owners to sign a bit of paper authorising you to rent their apartment .
Or
Offer to buy out the existing owner of the sole agent business.
Kurt Konrad y compañia is a property development company started by the now deceased kurt Konrad. Continued by his son, the company built many tourist complexes in the south and sold off the freehold while retaining some for themselves to rent out to tourists .
Obviously KK realised that by retaining ownership of the reception they would always be the rental agent for each complex.
bonitatime
10-02-2013, 18:45
How many apartments are owned as timeshare? He probably doesn't own these they are probably held in trust on the Isle of Mann. But I am not sure that makes them easier to access
Altamira
10-02-2013, 18:50
"Hello mr Konrad , will you give up your half a million euro per year business so we can run it for you? Oh and what's a fair amount for reception 400 you say mr Konrad ? Deal!" Reception Costs Do you think he would accept 400 for the reception, is it per month or per year, I anxiously await your reply and any advice on how to best to proceed with negotiations.
Timeshare never actually means that a load of people have paid large amounts to say they own property, they're still owned by KK trust me
Reception Costs Do you think he would accept 400 for the reception, is it per month or per year, I anxiously await your reply and any advice on how to best to proceed with negotiations.
The best is not to bother, he'd have to be stupid to take up your offer.
How many apartments are owned as timeshare? He probably doesn't own these they are probably held in trust on the Isle of Mann. But I am not sure that makes them easier to access
He has so many companies that you would need a forensic expert in company law to sort it out.In the days when he was making money from the building trade he didn't worry about the "sole agency" side of his business but now that most of his building companies have been taken over by the banks (all in different names with different partners )and his Top Ten Training isn't doing too well I suppose he has to get his bucks from somewhere. I would be wonderful to see someone take him on and win!!!!
junglejim
10-02-2013, 22:57
Actually ,Loaded we threatened KK with installing our own reception in the communal area for our own use , which he can't prevent because he was playing silly buggers - we now have the use of reception for the cost of the community fees!
As for the brown envelopes, it was a tongue in cheek response to our attempts to resurrect our licence, every stage seems to hit a "problem" that is mysteriously resolved by the administrator speaking to someone !
We had licence via Konrad that was in spec including upgrades to fire system that were "passed" that suddenly were not ?
Days later, they were ok ?
I'm not in the loop of those that are working to get a sole agent so not privy to all the shenanigans that are going on behind the scenes - AGM in 3 weeks, I can't wait !
as for quality of Apartments, Konrad 's own are basic , others have to remove their belongings and Dvd's etc
Actually ,Loaded we threatened KK with installing our own reception in the communal area for our own use , which he can't prevent because he was playing silly buggers - we now have the use of reception for the cost of the community fees!
As for the brown envelopes, it was a tongue in cheek response to our attempts to resurrect our licence, every stage seems to hit a "problem" that is mysteriously resolved by the administrator speaking to someone !
We had licence via Konrad that was in spec including upgrades to fire system that were "passed" that suddenly were not ?
Days later, they were ok ?
I'm not in the loop of those that are working to get a sole agent so not privy to all the shenanigans that are going on behind the scenes - AGM in 3 weeks, I can't wait !
as for quality of Apartments, Konrad 's own are basic , others have to remove their belongings and Dvd's etc
I can understand why he dumbs down the properties, we have an opposite problem at paloma beach..... A lot of the apartments have been revamped and look amazing with all mod cons new floors, kitchens etc etc..... But some owners refuse to move with the times - this means the price we charge is held down lower than the modernised apartments deserve - it's hard to get everyone on a level playing field.
I would like to see where those official figures are please
I think you mustn't be keeping up to date with the news they were discussed on here recently when they showed a decline of almost 4% in visitors in 2012 look back about a week
I think you mustn't be keeping up to date with the news they were discussed on here recently when they showed a decline of almost 4% in visitors in 2012 look back about a week
You retired folk may have enough spare time to sift through every single post at your leisure but i don't i work everyday.
Altamira
11-02-2013, 11:19
The best is not to bother, he'd have to be stupid to take up your offer.Sole Agent do they Qualify I am sure such negotiations would be interesting, however it appears that Konrad does not qualify to be the sole agent, as they do not seem to have 50% plus of the apartments. I assume this means they are operating illegally, perhaps they have no rights to be operating the time shares or renting any Altamira Apartments. Perhaps their license should be considered to be null & void. I think it is in everyone's interest for an acceptable and legalised sole agent agreement to be in place. Therefore Altamira has 3 options negotiate with Konrad or some other sole agent or set up an in-house company owned by the apartment owners.
You retired folk may have enough spare time to sift through every single post at your leisure but i don't i work everyday.
despite what your post count says to the contrary lol
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Sole Agent do they Qualify I am sure such negotiations would be interesting, however it appears that Konrad does not qualify to be the sole agent, as they do not seem to have 50% plus of the apartments. I assume this means they are operating illegally, perhaps they have no rights to be operating the time shares or renting any Altamira Apartments. Perhaps their license should be considered to be null & void. I think it is in everyone's interest for an acceptable and legalised sole agent agreement to be in place. Therefore Altamira has 3 options negotiate with Konrad or some other sole agent or set up an in-house company owned by the apartment owners.
he's certainly on the back foot but i don't think he's working illegally........ if he was reported as having less than 50%+1 an this was found to be accurate then he would probably be given a deadline to recoup the numbers or lose the license. But I think the Cabildo are aware that a lot of the complexes go up and down with their numbers and I know of a complex in Los Cris who operated with around 45% for a long time without any problem - it is not in the interest of the government to close establishments willie nillie......
If he has less than 50%+1 then obviously it is statistically possible for you to gather the remainder of owners and become the sole agent, however you will find that of the remainder, only 10 or 20% will be interested in letting (they'll already be letting illegally) or they'd more likely already be letting with Konrad.
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you've certainly got an angle for negotiation but if I were him I'd say "go for it, do what you want - the only thing you'll succeed in doing by reporting me is making the other half of the complex as illegal as the others" - and that might **** off a lot of the owners who have played it straight by signing up to the sole agent.
After all the only reason he hasn't got 50%+1 is because some owners refuse to sign up and be legal (we know the reasons)
I think you mustn't be keeping up to date with the news they were discussed on here recently when they showed a decline of almost 4% in visitors in 2012 look back about a week
Neither do I have the time, but, although I am not sure of the point you are making, last years passenger numbers at TFS were 8,530,817 - a fall of 1.5% over 2011 (8,656,487)
Hardly quiet?!!
despite what your post count says to the contrary lol
and yours.......
Neither do I have the time, but, although I am not sure of the point you are making, last years passenger numbers at TFS were 8,530,817 - a fall of 1.5% over 2011 (8,656,487)
Hardly quiet?!!
and in case it is interesting, last year's fall at TFS compares to a fall of -10.7% at Alicante, who are not subject to the Canaries "illegal lettings" laws ........
seanocelt
11-02-2013, 13:32
To add, when you have a good annual stat, fair chance the next year will be down, thats the problem with year on year.
junglejim
11-02-2013, 13:54
I think in terms of the stats , the issues in Northern Africa with the "Arab Spring" will have had a positive effect on Canaries Tourism that overlays
the underlying economic issues and unemployment - .
Fivepence
11-02-2013, 15:20
I think in terms of the stats , the issues in Northern Africa with the "Arab Spring" will have had a positive effect on Canaries Tourism that overlays
the underlying economic issues and unemployment - .
Flippin heck JJ, you could be a politician..............:laugh:
Flippin heck JJ, you could be a politician..............:laugh:
instead of a forum _______________
junglejim
11-02-2013, 16:53
I´m not bright enough to be a sparkie 9+!
Fivepence
11-02-2013, 17:13
I´m not bright enough to be a sparkie 9+!
You don't need to be bright JJ but an electric personality helps. :crazy:
Altamira
11-02-2013, 18:08
Sole Agent LImited Company Hello Rene, I had responded to your earlier comments, I assume you are satisfied that share transfers can be contained to only apply to apartment owners? and that if any owner was to be in debt that it would not have any impact on the other shareholders i.e. no embargo on the other shareholder assets?
You are now commenting that we would not proceed after taking legal advice, what makes you think that the advice would be so negative that we would not wish to proceed?
Altamira, if 200 apartments were to be reasonably booked out they could each earn 20000 euros;
200 x 20000 = 4 million euros for the owners. The present sole agent system is only offering 1 million euros, therefore the owners are collectively loosing 3 million euros.
Management Costs, the Altamira owners via the new sole agent company, would have the potential to earn 4 million less management costs. I think the actual cost would be negligible, perhaps 10 staff x 20000 = 200000 euros + 50000 for other costs total 250000 euros.
The bottom line is that the owners have the potential to be collectively making just a bit short of 4 million compared to the present potential of 1 million.
Altamira Income I note someone had commented that Hovima Hotels (Konrad) were renting out Altamira Apartments for over 550 euros per week and I have checked this, it is more than the 400 euros that the so called illegal independent owners were charging.
This means that if Hovima was able to fully book 200 apartments they would earn a total of 550 euros x 200 rooms x 52 weeks = 5,720,000 that is over 5 million euros. But they will only be paying the owners around 1 million euros, this means that Konrads income after deducting the owners fraction is 4,720,000.
Earning ratio, this ratio of potential income for the factor (Konrad) is well over any reasonable amount, it should perhaps be the other way around.
despite what your post count says to the contrary lol
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he's certainly on the back foot but i don't think he's working illegally........ if he was reported as having less than 50%+1 an this was found to be accurate then he would probably be given a deadline to recoup the numbers or lose the license. But I think the Cabildo are aware that a lot of the complexes go up and down with their numbers and I know of a complex in Los Cris who operated with around 45% for a long time without any problem - it is not in the interest of the government to close establishments willie nillie......
If he has less than 50%+1 then obviously it is statistically possible for you to gather the remainder of owners and become the sole agent, however you will find that of the remainder, only 10 or 20% will be interested in letting (they'll already be letting illegally) or they'd more likely already be letting with Konrad.
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you've certainly got an angle for negotiation but if I were him I'd say "go for it, do what you want - the only thing you'll succeed in doing by reporting me is making the other half of the complex as illegal as the others" - and that might **** off a lot of the owners who have played it straight by signing up to the sole agent.
After all the only reason he hasn't got 50%+1 is because some owners refuse to sign up and be legal (we know the reasons)
Altamira has 244 apartments. 41 are Timeshare and on the last count 36 were actively being managed by Konrad. So he is 46 apartments short of the 123 needed to operate the licence legally. However .... he does have 142 apartments listed on his licence. 65 of the owners on the ñicence are unaware that their apartment is on it!
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Altamira Income I note someone had commented that Hovima Hotels (Konrad) were renting out Altamira Apartments for over 550 euros per week and I have checked this, it is more than the 400 euros that the so called illegal independent owners were charging.
This means that if Hovima was able to fully book 200 apartments they would earn a total of 550 euros x 200 rooms x 52 weeks = 5,720,000 that is over 5 million euros. But they will only be paying the owners around 1 million euros, this means that Konrads income after deducting the owners fraction is 4,720,000.
Earning ratio, this ratio of potential income for the factor (Konrad) is well over any reasonable amount, it should perhaps be the other way around.
Altamira is no longer associated with Hovima. Altamira does appear on their website but you try to book an apartment and it will say it is fully booked for evermore! When I phoned Hovima they said that Altamira has a new company who deals with their bookings but couldn't/wouldn't give me the name.
If you try to book an apartment through booking.com or any of the other web-sites advertising Altamira they all come up as fully booked till the year dot.
I tried to book on booking.com for June and July and August and all three periods wee showing available .
Which web- site was that Loaded?
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Sorry ... just re read your post!! you said booking.com ... I'll try again x
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You're right ... !!! Am scratching my head now!!!
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Still .... they do only have 36 rooms.
How Do you know about the 36?
I had a series of meetings with Konrad's company early last year to try set up an agreement between them and another agent to work together. It came out then.
But no agreement with other agent?
But no agreement with other agent?
No ... no agreement. To be fair they were pretty keen to get an agreement sorted and between us we put together a detailed proposal to put before their company lawyers. Once the lawyers got involved, it all fell apart. Basically as you earlier pointed out, it was the area of risk that they didn't like. If an apartment under the second agent's control were issued a fine of any sort, ultimately Konrad's company would be liable.
Yeah that's where it always falls down, we offered 2 others the chance to join us in the mid 90s buy they wouldn't agree to share running costs or deposit any good faith money in the event of firs caused by them.
Worked out for the best for us that they didn't .
We could of told you that without wasting time preparing a detailed proposal.
x
Altamira
12-02-2013, 11:13
Altamira has 244 apartments. 41 are Timeshare and on the last count 36 were actively being managed by Konrad. So he is 46 apartments short of the 123 needed to operate the licence legally. However .... he does have 142 apartments listed on his licence. 65 of the owners on the ñicence are unaware that their apartment is on it!
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Altamira is no longer associated with Hovima. Altamira does appear on their website but you try to book an apartment and it will say it is fully booked for evermore! When I phoned Hovima they said that Altamira has a new company who deals with their bookings but couldn't/wouldn't give me the name.
If you try to book an apartment through booking.com or any of the other web-sites advertising Altamira they all come up as fully booked till the year dot.
Altamira - Hovima - Konrad Hello Foz, the Hovima/Altamira arrangement does appear a bit hazy, I had also previously checked out how to book etc and as you say trying to book via Hovima seemed to fully booked or unavailable, I also tried via booking.com and found Hovima/Altamira available but very expensive, however since submitting my comments yesterday they now appear to have been greatly reduced (Oh how strange)!!!!
Altamira - Hovima - Konrad Hello Foz, the Hovima/Altamira arrangement does appear a bit hazy, I had also previously checked out how to book etc and as you say trying to book via Hovima seemed to fully booked or unavailable, I also tried via booking.com and found Hovima/Altamira available but very expensive, however since submitting my comments yesterday they now appear to have been greatly reduced (Oh how strange)!!!!
Speakign from experience, the reason you'll find booking.com showing prices that are mental - ie: 2000 euros per night or simialr is because every hotel / apartments that are with booking.com have to give them a "cupo". A cupo is a minumum amount of allocated rooms that booking.com get to sell. Lets say its 10 units.....
When the hotel takes bookings they do not stop when there are 10 left and rely on booking.com to sell their allocation because booking.com are under no obligation to pay them for the 10 rooms. So what happens is the hotel carries on taking bookings and eats into the "cupo".
Lets say that the hotel has now sold all of its own inventory and 5 of the 10 in BK.coms cupo........ and then BK gets 5 bookings. The hotel is now full but BK.com still have 5 rooms to sell according to their allocation - the hotelier cannot close these out so he ammeds the price to be something ridiculous to put anyone off booking it.
Altamira
12-02-2013, 12:08
Loaded Bookings Hello Loaded, I understand what you are saying, except the prices did not go up they appeared to strangely come down. Perhaps it was seen to be too expensive and therefore was reduced to a more acceptable level.
Loaded Bookings Hello Loaded, I understand what you are saying, except the prices did not go up they appeared to strangely come down. Perhaps it was seen to be too expensive and therefore was reduced to a more acceptable level.
booking.com give higher visibility to hotels that do a flash deal - this is a massive discount on the rates, ie 50%.... obviously no one can afford to drop their rates by 50% when you have to pay an owner an agreed rate, so they load the prices higher than normal then cut them in half which reveals a discounted rate and takes advantage of the flash deals. the price is their real price.
Yeah that's where it always falls down, we offered 2 others the chance to join us in the mid 90s buy they wouldn't agree to share running costs or deposit any good faith money in the event of firs caused by them.
Worked out for the best for us that they didn't .
In the case of Altamira ....they managed to agree everything relating to running costs etc. It was literally the "fines" issue that worried them. The second agent agreed to signing a legal document ensuring they kept their public liability insurance up to date etc. But, Konrad's lawyers felt that should an apartment under the second agent's control incur a large fine (for any reason), the agent could just declare bankrupcy and leave Konrad being liable for the fine.
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We could of told you that without wasting time preparing a detailed proposal.
x
We felt it was worth a try.
In the case of Altamira ....they managed to agree everything relating to running costs etc. It was literally the "fines" issue that worried them. The second agent agreed to signing a legal document ensuring they kept their public liability insurance up to date etc. But, Konrad's lawyers felt that should an apartment under the second agent's control incur a large fine (for any reason), the agent could just declare bankrupcy and leave Konrad being liable for the fine.
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We felt it was worth a try.
yeah its always a worry allowing other people to carry out business in your name - not many would agree to that.
yeah its always a worry allowing other people to carry out business in your name - not many would agree to that.
True ... but many businesses go into partnership with others and work quite successfully. The people I spoke with at Konrad's acknowledged the fact that what they were offering was unattractive to most of the owners at Altamira. They were also aware that if the owners that appear on their licence, who do not rent their place out to Konrad, were to remove their names from the licence, then Konrad would lose what they have going at Altamira. They were keen to listen to ideas as to how they could work with the owners ... but were not happy to implement any other system other than the one they offer at present. Going into partnership with an agent happy to offer what the owners were asking for seemed like a good idea to them as well as the other agent and enough owners to guarantee the 50%+1. Konrad's people were as unhappy as we were when the lawyers felt it too risky.
I guess that was just a play along act on Konrad's part.
I guess that was just a play along act on Konrad's part.
I guess we'll never know ... but atleast I feel I tried.
Altamira
12-02-2013, 15:48
I guess that was just a play along act on Konrad's part. Sole Agent Monopoly Perhaps the Konrad Monopoly would be non-plussed about losing any part of their control. Perhaps they were happy to play along with the aim of obtaining the extra apartments and disposing of the other agent, it makes good business sense.
If the government wishes to pursue this law, then surely it at least needs to ensure everyone is following the system correctly. That means sole agents must have the 50% + 1 and it needs to be checked every year (not just take their lying word for it)!! Not sure they do really care except for corporate / hotel friends and probably driven by self interest and rumour has it 'backhanders'.
I know of one very energetic and competent agent with a significant business who has tried to get something sensible, coherent and progressive going (including meeting Konrad) but stifled by too many people expecting someone else to do something unfortunately!
Say the licence lasted for 3 years if one apartment owner pulled out 6 months down the line should the Government automatically ban rentals on that legal complex straight away?
I don't think so do you?
Say the licence lasted for 3 years if one apartment owner pulled out 6 months down the line should the Government automatically ban rentals on that legal complex straight away?
I don't think so do you?
9 plus calm down and stop talking as if this alice in wonderland situation makes any sense. Of course the poster is right , how can there be a system where 50 plus 1 is legal and there you have the foundation of the canaries most important industry. All it takes is numbers to fall below 50 plus 1 and the whole schebang is suddenly illegal. People this is reality not a Lewis carol dreamland. So if the complex suddenly goes illegal then the agent should withdraw and cancel all potential bookings, as the law would demand, and as Javert says from les miserables, the law is not to be mocked. So tourists coming from the uk would be accomodation less but with flights already booked, wonderful publicity for the canaries.
Yet we keep being told that the canaries are allowed sole agency by the eu because their tourist industry is so vitaly important and so they are justified in looking having these odd laws to help it along.
In the real world there would be no way to phase out the illegal complex as the agent could not continue to commercially run the place on diminishing numbers, to assist the pre booked clients to have their holidays.
Tourismo can not have thought this issue through very well back in 1995.
nelson calm down, stop being a guiri pedido and stop making new usernames on the forum to try and back up your weak and failed argument.
seanocelt
19-02-2013, 04:36
If the government wishes to pursue this law, then surely it at least needs to ensure everyone is following the system correctly. That means sole agents must have the 50% + 1 and it needs to be checked every year (not just take their lying word for it)!! Not sure they do really care except for corporate / hotel friends and probably driven by self interest and rumour has it 'backhanders'.
I know of one very energetic and competent agent with a significant business who has tried to get something sensible, coherent and progressive going (including meeting Konrad) but stifled by too many people expecting someone else to do something unfortunately!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8z9L0ptsZeg
bonitatime
19-02-2013, 07:30
I really resent your implication this is not the real world. It may not be your real world but it is for many of us.
What a load of tittle tattle
third attempt to post reply (no idea why didn't appear?)
my post was related to the fact that operators need to have 50 + 1% as evidence suggests this is not always the case and needs to be fair for everyone.
In relation to your point about one person 'pulling out' I believe it will rarely be so close with the 1% and agreements are quite capable of covering these eventualities, just like any form of contract. It's not something unique - people sell, move on etc. for a number of reasons.
nelson calm down, stop being a guiri pedido and stop making new usernames on the forum to try and back up your weak and failed argument.
I like 9PLUS ,s post,s ,then again I like Nelson,s post,s there,S only one way to settle this
FFFIIIGGGHHHTTT!!!:jumping:
third attempt to post reply (no idea why didn't appear?)
my post was related to the fact that operators need to have 50 + 1% as evidence suggests this is not always the case and needs to be fair for everyone.
In relation to your point about one person 'pulling out' I believe it will rarely be so close with the 1% and agreements are quite capable of covering these eventualities, just like any form of contract. It's not something unique - people sell, move on etc. for a number of reasons.
It's not 1%, it's 50% + 1 property; 50% is illegal if 1 property decides to stop letting
Fivepence
19-02-2013, 19:56
Illegal letting the UK way.. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2281057/Council-use-aeroplane-thermal-imaging-cameras-catch-landlords-illegally-house-migrant-workers-sheds.html).............:tiphat:
It's not 1%, it's 50% + 1 property; 50% is illegal if 1 property decides to stop letting
so back to alice in wonderland, remember the law is not to be mocked. Of course people buy and sell private apartments all the time, also some renters might choose to stop renting to tourists, or they might decide to stop tourist renting and start long let residential renting. Another possible is that they may have a mortgage and fall into difficulty and be repossesed. For whatever reason the vital legal number for senor monopoly sole agent may be lost , as bobmac points out this number is 50%, 50 plus 1 is legal, 50 is illegal.
As this event could occur at any point in time , without warning, sort of like John Majors loss of govt when he lost the last of several near miss votes in parliament, then overnight or even during the night the whole complex would be an illegal let. The result may then be
1. all tourists evicted and sent home the next day.
2. existing tourists allowed to finish holiday but no new ones allowed to come. Cancellations and upset in the uk.
It may be that the 1995 has provisions for this event, maybe a period of time allowed to run on less than 50 plus 1 before illegality and cesation of tourist letting?
we normally look to loaded on this thread to give us the legal facts on this sort of issue, normally complete with the original spanish wording.
Please can we have some clarification on this from organ grinder loaded, monkey 9 plus is not up to speed on this.
so back to alice in wonderland, remember the law is not to be mocked. Of course people buy and sell private apartments all the time, also some renters might choose to stop renting to tourists, or they might decide to stop tourist renting and start long let residential renting. Another possible is that they may have a mortgage and fall into difficulty and be repossesed. For whatever reason the vital legal number for senor monopoly sole agent may be lost , as bobmac points out this number is 50%, 50 plus 1 is legal, 50 is illegal.
As this event could occur at any point in time , without warning, sort of like John Majors loss of govt when he lost the last of several near miss votes in parliament, then overnight or even during the night the whole complex would be an illegal let. The result may then be
1. all tourists evicted and sent home the next day.
2. existing tourists allowed to finish holiday but no new ones allowed to come. Cancellations and upset in the uk.
It may be that the 1995 has provisions for this event, maybe a period of time allowed to run on less than 50 plus 1 before illegality and cesation of tourist letting?
we normally look to loaded on this thread to give us the legal facts on this sort of issue, normally complete with the original spanish wording.
Please can we have some clarification on this from organ grinder loaded, monkey 9 plus is not up to speed on this.
I've asked JA this question and she says that under the current law nothing has happened where the situation has occurred - she reckons that there are a lot of sole agents who are still operating but no longer actually hold the required legal number of properties.
She doesn't know what the new law will do about this position though.
I've asked JA this question and she says that under the current law nothing has happened where the situation has occurred - she reckons that there are a lot of sole agents who are still operating but no longer actually hold the required legal number of properties.
She doesn't know what the new law will do about this position though.
Certainly that's the case, our complex is a prime example, when we first bought the sole agent was still renting some, but did not have 50 plus 1. We discovered last year we still have a sole agent , alive not dormant, he has never de registered many of us. On paper he still has 50 plus 1 , but in reality it's a sham.
Don't you think the majority of sole agents have way more than 50%+1 ?
Selling a property has nothing to do with taking it off this so called complex tourism register.
As soon as nelson get her act together and starts following the Canary Islands standards and sorted her studio out at least the sole agent can bring some extra tax in she doesn't pay at the moment.
All a lot better for the islands, even Hitler would of agreed.
Don't you think the majority of sole agents have way more than 50%+1 ?
Selling a property has nothing to do with taking it off this so called complex tourism register.
As soon as nelson get her act together and starts following the Canary Islands standards and sorted her studio out at least the sole agent can bring some extra tax in she doesn't pay at the moment.
All a lot better for the islands, even Hitler would of agreed.
................:laugh:
4577
Fivepence
20-02-2013, 09:32
Don't you think the majority of sole agents have way more than 50%+1 ?
Selling a property has nothing to do with taking it off this so called complex tourism register.
As soon as nelson get her act together and starts following the Canary Islands standards and sorted her studio out at least the sole agent can bring some extra tax in she doesn't pay at the moment.
All a lot better for the islands, even Hitler would of agreed.
I thought Nelson was :male:
I thought Nelson was :male:
Is that the symbol for Nuisance?..:laugh:
If the monkey read the organ grinders recent posts he would know the answers.
Altamira
20-02-2013, 10:52
I've asked JA this question and she says that under the current law nothing has happened where the situation has occurred - she reckons that there are a lot of sole agents who are still operating but no longer actually hold the required legal number of properties.
She doesn't know what the new law will do about this position though.
Sole Agent do they Qualify Hello BobMac. We are all aware that the sole agent needs to obtain 50% + 1 apartment in order to obtain a license. If the Sole agent loses some apartments, there does not appear to be a system for automatic loss of a license.
I assume that in order for a license holder to lose their licence it must be replaced by some other sole agent who would need to prove that they have now acquired the support of the 50% +1 apartment.
God only knows how the agents would be able to handle a smooth transition without some upset for the actual tourist who may now find their holiday plans ruined.
Shareholders Why would a non owner wish to purchase shares in what would effectively be a non profit making company? Perhaps the shares issues can be organized so that they can only be transferred to the other shareholders. Not sure about if someone has a debt, however I will give you this scenario, if someone has a debt and he has shares in Santander are you seriously suggesting that the assets of all of Santanders shareholders can be embargoed.
Sole Agent LImited Company Hello Rene, I had responded to your earlier comments, I assume you are satisfied that share transfers can be contained to only apply to apartment owners? and that if any owner was to be in debt that it would not have any impact on the other shareholders i.e. no embargo on the other shareholder assets?
You are now commenting that we would not proceed after taking legal advice, what makes you think that the advice would be so negative that we would not wish to proceed?
Hello Altamira. In one of our complexes we administer we have an (English) president that also wanted to constitute a SL with the owners of the complex as the shareholders. He had, just like you, for everything a solution. After obtaining legal advice he was (finally) convinced that it would give to many problems. That´s why I said that, after obtaining legal advice about your specific case, you will probably not continue.
However I support your effort to remove the existing company Konrad as I hear only bad stories from you and others. Therefore I advised you to talk to Wimpen (http://www.wimpen.com/en).. I know them as we administer the complex where they have their office (Playa Paraiso). As far as I know this is a reliable company and it is worth a visit to see if they can help you.
Banco Santandar is by the way a SA and not an SL.
The license would be lost when an inspection is carried out and there is found to be less than 50%+1 in exploitation. This happened to a place in torviscas last week according to the inspector who was at Paloma beach .
The other way would be if a rival company presented 50%+1 to the cabildo .
And to clarify something said a few posts back;
The cabildo won't just close you down because your numbers drop slightly below the magic number. Establishments would be given time to recover the 50%+1 before being closed down.
Altamira
20-02-2013, 14:22
And to clarify something said a few posts back;
The cabildo won't just close you down because your numbers drop slightly below the magic number. Establishments would be given time to recover the 50%+1 before being closed down.
Sole Agent - Verification of Numbers I wonder how well the inspectors check the numbers, do they seek verification from all the individual owners that they have agreed to be on the license, if not why not. I heard that there may be some Alatmira Apartment owners who are unaware that they are on the license, if that is correct then how valid is the license.
The only way to get owners on the license is to have all those owners sign a document and present that along with their escritura and passports to the cabildo
Altamira
20-02-2013, 16:32
The only way to get owners on the license is to have all those owners sign a document and present that along with their escritura and passports to the cabildo
Altamira Tourist License Hello Loaded, I believe that when Altamira was built the developer placed all the apartments on the license. However when they sold the apartments some owners removed theirs others did not, that is why many owners are unaware that they are on the license. Are you suggesting that they should visit the Cabildo with passport & escritura and ask for their apartments to be removed from the license.
Great news everyone!!!!!!!!! As of today Paloma Beach Apartments is no longer 1 key, we just got confirmation we have been awarded 3 stars by the tourist board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow! Brilliant!!
Very best of luck you obviously deserve it!
And to clarify something said a few posts back;
The cabildo won't just close you down because your numbers drop slightly below the magic number. Establishments would be given time to recover the 50%+1 before being closed down.
Nelsons apartment apparently has 9 m̶o̶n̶ keys
cheers
bonitatime
22-02-2013, 09:29
Great news everyone!!!!!!!!! As of today Paloma Beach Apartments is no longer 1 key, we just got confirmation we have been awarded 3 stars by the tourist board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations
seanocelt
22-02-2013, 13:06
Congrats from us too, we used it as tourists and have sent many people there, all happy with the complex and prices, well done.
third attempt to post reply (no idea why didn't appear?)
my post was related to the fact that operators need to have 50 + 1% as evidence suggests this is not always the case and needs to be fair for everyone.
In relation to your point about one person 'pulling out' I believe it will rarely be so close with the 1% and agreements are quite capable of covering these eventualities, just like any form of contract. It's not something unique - people sell, move on etc. for a number of reasons.
It's not 1%, it's 50% + 1 property; 50% is illegal if 1 property decides to stop letting
Sole Agent do they Qualify Hello BobMac. We are all aware that the sole agent needs to obtain 50% + 1 apartment in order to obtain a license. If the Sole agent loses some apartments, there does not appear to be a system for automatic loss of a license.
I assume that in order for a license holder to lose their licence it must be replaced by some other sole agent who would need to prove that they have now acquired the support of the 50% +1 apartment.
God only knows how the agents would be able to handle a smooth transition without some upset for the actual tourist who may now find their holiday plans ruined.
If you had taken the trouble to follow the posts regarding 50% +1 in the last few days, it would appear that contrary to your opinion not everybody is aware that it is 50%+1
Altamira
22-02-2013, 15:40
If you had taken the trouble to follow the posts regarding 50% +1 in the last few days, it would appear that contrary to your opinion not everybody is aware that it is 50%+1
50% + 1 apartment Sorry, my comments were not meant to be critical of your previous comments, it was meant to read "We are now all aware that it is 50%+ 1 apartment" and it then went onto the associated problems.
50% + 1 apartment Sorry, my comments were not meant to be critical of your previous comments, it was meant to read "We are now all aware that it is 50%+ 1 apartment" and it then went onto the associated problems.
That's OK
I wasn't having a go at you, I was pointing out that despite the number of times we've gone over the 50% + 1 point and hammered it through, there still appear to be people out there who think it means 51% (or just can't be bothered reading the thread to check things like that before the post on it !!!)
rkennedy
22-02-2013, 16:50
Great news everyone!!!!!!!!! As of today Paloma Beach Apartments is no longer 1 key, we just got confirmation we have been awarded 3 stars by the tourist board!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well done - a great reward for all the hard work. :c2::c2: However does that mean the prices will be going up? :wink:
Altamira
22-02-2013, 17:46
Well done - a great reward for all the hard work. :c2::c2: However does that mean the prices will be going up? :wink:
3 Keys Why has Paloma managed to go from 1 key up to 3 keys? is this because of the actual owners, the community office/president, the sole agent or is it a combination of one or more?
Did Paloma request a higher rating?
3 Keys Why has Paloma managed to go from 1 key up to 3 keys? is this because of the actual owners, the community office/president, the sole agent or is it a combination of one or more?
Did Paloma request a higher rating?
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
4584
3 Keys Why has Paloma managed to go from 1 key up to 3 keys? is this because of the actual owners, the community office/president, the sole agent or is it a combination of one or more?
Did Paloma request a higher rating?
1 key to 3 Stars
cheers
Because they are awesome and legal
3 Keys Why has Paloma managed to go from 1 key up to 3 keys? is this because of the actual owners, the community office/president, the sole agent or is it a combination of one or more?
Did Paloma request a higher rating?
Over the last 18 months - 2 years I have been pushing the required updates needed to gain 3 star, this included persuading all owners to include full mirrors (lots of resistance), replace old 1m90 beds with 2m long ones (lots of resistance), install hairdriers in all apartments (lots of resistance)...... Install a play park and exercise equipment on communal areas (some resistance)..... Add disabled spaces and a taxi drop point (some resistance)..... Plus other bits too and lots of paperwork.
Oh and yes I had to give the tourist board money - €4.25 I think it cost.
So to answer your question it is because of the sole agent pushing some owners, guiding other owners and batting off the rest in order to gain what is obviously beneficial to all owners property value.
And yes we requested it. I personally managed the whole project.
seanocelt
23-02-2013, 00:14
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
4584
Heh Heh.............v funny.......and swift! If only legislation ................blah blah................drone..............etc. Funny reply pal.
Altamira Tourist License Hello Loaded, I believe that when Altamira was built the developer placed all the apartments on the license. However when they sold the apartments some owners removed theirs others did not, that is why many owners are unaware that they are on the license. Are you suggesting that they should visit the Cabildo with passport & escritura and ask for their apartments to be removed from the license.
Do be aware though that if those owners wishing to remove themselves from the licence did so without any other agent being ready to sign up the required 50%+1, there is a danger that the complex could lose it's touristic status. This would be very detrimental to the area.
Altamira
23-02-2013, 11:18
Do be aware though that if those owners wishing to remove themselves from the licence did so without any other agent being ready to sign up the required 50%+1, there is a danger that the complex could lose it's touristic status. This would be very detrimental to the area.Vanishing Tourist Licence Hello Foz, I assume if Altamira lost its licence, it would then be considered to be dormant rather than residential and if dormant it could reapply for a new licence. However if no one re-applied would the new proposed tourist laws cover that scenario by imposing a sole agent into Altamira.
Vanishing Tourist Licence Hello Foz, I assume if Altamira lost its licence, it would then be considered to be dormant rather than residential and if dormant it could reapply for a new licence. However if no one re-applied would the new proposed tourist laws cover that scenario by imposing a sole agent into Altamira.
Until the new law in finalised we have no way of knowing. If that were the case ... it could be "out of the frying pan, into the fire"!!!!
Altamira
23-02-2013, 11:38
Until the new law in finalised we have no way of knowing. If that were the case ... it could be "out of the frying pan, into the fire"!!!!
Sole Agent? Yes, it may be a case of better the devil you know, perhaps we can encourage the sole agent to become more user friendly!!!!
junglejim
23-02-2013, 13:40
And yes we requested it. I personally managed the whole project.
Is this the guidelines from2010 law you had to follow ?
http://sede.gobcan.es/boc/boc-a-2010-204-5659.pdf
Do you require to have a general internet access and does it have tobe WIFI or just a terminal ?
That's the one - wifi Internet is fine . We're putting it in the apartments next too.
Free wifi Has to be available at reception
Do you require to have a general internet access and does it have tobe WIFI or just a terminal ?
If you do have Wi-Fi, is it the Commundad that provides/pays for it, or someone else on site, and if the Communidad has provided it, what roughly was the set up (Capital) cost, and the Revenue implications (Annual running costs)?.
I ask because the Tourist Complex I live on would like to make Wi-Fi available to owners (in their Apartments - not just in Reception), whereas at present as well as the Reception area, only our Bar (owned by a separate company) offers it (if you buy a drink), and the range of the signal is limited.
Sole Agent? Yes, it may be a case of better the devil you know, perhaps we can encourage the sole agent to become more user friendly!!!!
Be my guest!! I tried for ages and he was adamant he would not alter his conditions. You never know he may listen to a more galvanised approach from owners. (Before anyone else mentions flying pigs I am aware of the unlikeliness of this x)
junglejim
23-02-2013, 16:11
If you do have Wi-Fi, is it the Commundad that provides/pays for it, or someone else on site, and if the Communidad has provided it, what roughly was the set up (Capital) cost, and the Revenue implications (Annual running costs)?.
I ask because the Tourist Complex I live on would like to make Wi-Fi available to owners (in their Apartments - not just in Reception), whereas at present as well as the Reception area, only our Bar (owned by a separate company) offers it (if you buy a drink), and the range of the signal is limited.
I raised a similiar point on another thread with no real response - I think you'll find the Bar is on dodgy ground as it could be classed as an ISP allowing it's signal to 3rd party, if any illegal downloading of anything occurs they have to provide details of users on their system (ie Data Retention of users ID etc) to the appropriate Authorities or they become personally liable - a company such as WIFIMundo take on this responsibility ! The data of users is usually reatined for 1 year.
Our way around this is asking all our clients if they're paedos before giving them the code, haven't had any so far.
junglejim
23-02-2013, 18:04
Rather unsubtle remark! Bar in Madrid was fined for customers illegal downloading .
Rather unsubtle remark! Bar in Madrid was fined for customers illegal downloading .
Seriously though we're looking at a better way
Altamira
23-02-2013, 20:12
Be my guest!! I tried for ages and he was adamant he would not alter his conditions. You never know he may listen to a more galvanised approach from owners. (Before anyone else mentions flying pigs I am aware of the unlikeliness of this x)
Power to the Apartment Owners Lets not forget that the power to control the sole agent ultimately lies with the community of owners, however the problem is getting them organized and taking decisive action.
Power to the Apartment Owners Lets not forget that the power to control the sole agent ultimately lies with the community of owners, however the problem is getting them organized and taking decisive action.
A sole agents work
Power to the Apartment Owners Lets not forget that the power to control the sole agent ultimately lies with the community of owners, however the problem is getting them organized and taking decisive action.
Did you already pass by Wimpen or any other sole agent?
Altamira
24-02-2013, 11:37
Did you already pass by Wimpen or any other sole agent?
Sole Agent - AGM I understand that legal advice on the existing & proposed new tourist laws will be given at the Altamira AGM due to be held in March. I think most owners will want to wait until after the new laws are introduced and understood before considering management alternatives.
junglejim
24-02-2013, 11:47
Sole Agent - AGM I understand that legal advice on the existing & proposed new tourist laws will be given at the Altamira AGM due to be held in March. I think most owners will want to wait until after the new laws are introduced and understood before considering management alternatives.?
Interesting comment Altamira,who is giving the legal advice ? Is it Konrad´s lawyer or an independent legal entity or politician ?
I´m sure many would love to pin someone down publicly to get some insight on the progress of new legislation - disappointingly Alotca has not held a follow up meeting to last year´s presentation in Adeje where a few legal minds were present.
Flogging a dead horse
cheers
x
Ecky Thump
24-02-2013, 12:27
Flogging a dead horse
cheers
x
Or a Steak Pie!!:laugh:
Sole Agent - AGM I understand that legal advice on the existing & proposed new tourist laws will be given at the Altamira AGM due to be held in March. I think most owners will want to wait until after the new laws are introduced and understood before considering management alternatives.
I don't think that this will be discused at the meeting. Anyway I think that it could be interesting to know what another company could offer. Seems to me the first step to take.
junglejim
24-02-2013, 12:43
Flogging a dead horse
x
Actually , more like pantomime horse the way this law and thread are going at times !
Alotca has not held a follow up meeting to last year´s presentation in Adeje where a few legal minds were present.
Does this organization still exists ?
Altamira
24-02-2013, 12:51
?
Interesting comment Altamira,who is giving the legal advice ? Is it Konrad´s lawyer or an independent legal entity or politician ?
I´m sure many would love to pin someone down publicly to get some insight on the progress of new legislation - disappointingly Alotca has not held a follow up meeting to last year´s presentation in Adeje where a few legal minds were present.Legal Advice Altamira residents requested a legal opinion and I understand the Altamira lawyer will attend the AGM. The Lawyer may not wish to comment too much on the subject of the proposed new laws, but I am sure he will be asked some questions. I am not aware of any direct connection to Konrad, but who knows.
There's nothing in the proposed new law that will affect you in any way - apart from the "fines for using tourist properties for residential use" part.
Seriously , don't expect them to suddenly say "sole agents are no more" or "owners can now rent their own apartments" when this isn't in the draft legislation.
Altamira
25-02-2013, 11:13
There's nothing in the proposed new law that will affect you in any way - apart from the "fines for using tourist properties for residential use" part.
Seriously , don't expect them to suddenly say "sole agents are no more" or "owners can now rent their own apartments" when this isn't in the draft legislation. Sole Agent - Time Share You may be right, but lets hope you are wrong in relation to Tourist/Residential use. However all tourist apartment owners who rent out should campaign for a change in the law, to allow some private rental. I wondered what is to stop a sole agent allowing/selling their use for a point system time share. I think Altamira Apartments were used in some non-existent time share scam a few years ago!!!!
Sole Agent - Time Share You may be right, but lets hope you are wrong in relation to Tourist/Residential use. However all tourist apartment owners who rent out should campaign for a change in the law, to allow some private rental. I wondered what is to stop a sole agent allowing/selling their use for a point system time share. I think Altamira Apartments were used in some non-existent time share scam a few years ago!!!!
Sounds like you need to contact Nellie and form an action group to campaign for private letting. As Loaded says, at this stage certainly, there are no proposals that even consider the concept of private letting.
That said, and I doubt Loaded would argue, you and the others would probably be better off getting together to campaign for some changes to the law in relation to making it easier to change agents if they do not offer appropriate returns on your investment(s), but that is a very different argument.
Sounds like you need to contact Nellie and form an action group to campaign for private letting. As Loaded says, at this stage certainly, there are no proposals that even consider the concept of private letting.
That said, and I doubt Loaded would argue, you and the others would probably be better off getting together to campaign for some changes to the law in relation to making it easier to change agents if they do not offer appropriate returns on your investment(s), but that is a very different argument.
Yes muppet , a campaign group with the simple aim of achieving legal private renting is what is required. The invisible alotca does not support that aim.
As we know all around the world private renting is normal and uncontroversial , but it's amazing that after all these months of the crackdown , no group has emerged to take this simple position forward and get the thing sorted.
The problem could be alotca, it sort of has put itself forward as the campaign group , but because it has limited aims against the current law changing, then the sensible way to challenge this absurd situation has not been championed so far.
Yes muppet , a campaign group with the simple aim of achieving legal private renting is what is required. The invisible alotca does not support that aim.
As we know all around the world private renting is normal and uncontroversial , but it's amazing that after all these months of the crackdown , no group has emerged to take this simple position forward and get the thing sorted.
The problem could be alotca, it sort of has put itself forward as the campaign group , but because it has limited aims against the current law changing, then the sensible way to challenge this absurd situation has not been championed so far.
That could be because most people realise that the Canarian Government are not going to back down on that part of the law and are concentrating their efforts on trying to get their fines reduced.
Yes muppet , a campaign group with the simple aim of achieving legal private renting is what is required. The invisible alotca does not support that aim.
As we know all around the world private renting is normal and uncontroversial , but it's amazing that after all these months of the crackdown , no group has emerged to take this simple position forward and get the thing sorted.
The problem could be alotca, it sort of has put itself forward as the campaign group , but because it has limited aims against the current law changing, then the sensible way to challenge this absurd situation has not been championed so far.
Right on cue matey. I have to say though that Alotca was set up with the best of intentions and in good faith. Until you can come up with something better it's probably best to see it as still being the No.1 vehicle. They know their limitations.
That doesn't mean that that's the end of it of course.
Nelson would rather pontificate on here than do something proactive .
Right on cue matey. I have to say though that Alotca was set up with the best of intentions and in good faith. Until you can come up with something better it's probably best to see it as still being the No.1 vehicle. They know their limitations.
That doesn't mean that that's the end of it of course.
I am an alotca member and yes in the beginning, pre xmas 2011, they came along at just the right time and seemed to have genuine good intensions. Remember the article posted by Jose Escobedo, he argued well and rationally for private individual letting, and proposed the 1200 euro annual fee. He also talked about 30 hotels worth of private renters in the islands. Then by early january 2012, alotca was saying that there was no hope for the residential renters and that they only wanted to see reform of sole agency. Added to this they began calling private individual renting a free for all, saying that they were against that.
The law could be challenged on many levels, in the canaries tourismo has a duty to act in the interests of the whole canarian population, this law does not do that , it is a protectionist tool which stiffles many parts of the canarian economy. A legal challenge here in the canaries could tackle that, the govt has a democratic duty of care to act responsibly, clearly there own actions would not stand up to expert anylisis. Beyond that there is europe and competition law, it can not be possible that consumers have free choice of letting in the rest of europe, but in the canaries they are made to pay for a more expensive form of self catering, with hotel ad ons.
Alotca dont so much no their limitations as have not even attempted to put up a sensible challenge.
Senor Escobedo or any of his associates have never explained why he wrote his fantastic article in 2011, then abandoned the points he made so quickly.
Wonder what he wrote it for in the first place? wonder why he abandoned those views so soon after?
I Challenge you to challenge it...
You may get the change you're after before the start of the UK tax year.
If they scrap the fines, you could say it's not a offense so we can do it, you'd make a load of friends in Tenerife, everyone would buy you a drink in the pub, you'd be a local hero.
Yes muppet , a campaign group with the simple aim of achieving legal private renting is what is required. The invisible alotca does not support that aim.
As we know all around the world private renting is normal and uncontroversial , but it's amazing that after all these months of the crackdown , no group has emerged to take this simple position forward and get the thing sorted.
The problem could be alotca, it sort of has put itself forward as the campaign group , but because it has limited aims against the current law changing, then the sensible way to challenge this absurd situation has not been championed so far.
This exactly NOT what I suggested.
It is clear that private letting is NOT on the horizon in terms of the current changes to the law, for all the reasons which have been discussed here over and over again. It would seem that any effort expended in this direction would be (much like fighting the Borg) futile.
The Government here do not see private letting as the way forward, what they wish to see is maintaining and indeed increasing control of the touristic offer on the islands and making better use of the infra-structure which already exists through modernisation and better use of land already taken over by the industry, rather than seeing yet more given over to tourism until it becomes necessary.
It would seem however that there are problems with certain agents who have control over certain developments and it is this area where your voice is more likely to be heard.
Alotca to my knowledge did not set out to campaign for private letting in the way you see it, and especially on residential sites.
Altamira
26-02-2013, 11:39
Tourist Apartment Law 1995 It appears to me that the 1995 tourist law was a retrospective law when applied to apartments built before 1995. I assume the authorities were reluctant to enforce it at the time, as it would have created a serious backlash from owners and their tourist customers who would have their bookings lost.
Now many years later they are vigorously enforcing it, this makes me think that the new proposed laws may also be given this delayed treatment, some say nothing to worry about, but will they say that in 15 years time.
I think the ALOTCA members should campaign for a change in the law to allow private rentals for tourist licensed apartments, especially for those apartments built before 1995.
It would be a waste of time Altamira don't you think?
Spending money on associations, lawyers, time etc etc etc....
Tourist Apartment Law 1995 It appears to me that the 1995 tourist law was a retrospective law when applied to apartments built before 1995. I assume the authorities were reluctant to enforce it at the time, as it would have created a serious backlash from owners and their tourist customers who would have their bookings lost.
Now many years later they are vigorously enforcing it, this makes me think that the new proposed laws may also be given this delayed treatment, some say nothing to worry about, but will they say that in 15 years time.
I think the ALOTCA members should campaign for a change in the law to allow private rentals for tourist licensed apartments, especially for those apartments built before 1995.
If in 1995 they had enforced the single agent in our complex they would have had to shut down the other onsite agents they didnt do that and there still open and work under the umbarella off the licence holder more than one agent on a complex can work it works on ours.
If in 1995 they had enforced the single agent in our complex they would have had to shut down the other onsite agents they didnt do that and there still open and work under the umbarella off the licence holder more than one agent on a complex can work it works on ours.
but as far as the tourist board are concerned there's only one agent, if they found out there were actually 3 it might be a different story. It certainly isn't "unity of exploitation" is it?
but as far as the tourist board are concerned there's only one agent, if they found out there were actually 3 it might be a different story. It certainly isn't "unity of exploitation" is it?
No its not but they did vist the others didnt seem to have a problem as far as i know off course the apartments are registered through the main licence holder so as you say offically only one.
junglejim
26-02-2013, 15:23
Legal Advice Altamira residents requested a legal opinion and I understand the Altamira lawyer will attend the AGM. The Lawyer may not wish to comment too much on the subject of the proposed new laws, but I am sure he will be asked some questions. I am not aware of any direct connection to Konrad, but who knows.
I think the first question to be asked is what is his professional relationship with the Konrad Empire ,before he gives any advice or info. !
duncan-6
26-02-2013, 20:47
I am an alotca member and yes in the beginning, pre xmas 2011, they came along at just the right time and seemed to have genuine good intensions. Remember the article posted by Jose Escobedo, he argued well and rationally for private individual letting, and proposed the 1200 euro annual fee. He also talked about 30 hotels worth of private renters in the islands. Then by early january 2012, alotca was saying that there was no hope for the residential renters and that they only wanted to see reform of sole agency. Added to this they began calling private individual renting a free for all, saying that they were against that.
The law could be challenged on many levels, in the canaries tourismo has a duty to act in the interests of the whole canarian population, this law does not do that , it is a protectionist tool which stiffles many parts of the canarian economy. A legal challenge here in the canaries could tackle that, the govt has a democratic duty of care to act responsibly, clearly there own actions would not stand up to expert anylisis. Beyond that there is europe and competition law, it can not be possible that consumers have free choice of letting in the rest of europe, but in the canaries they are made to pay for a more expensive form of self catering, with hotel ad ons.
Alotca dont so much no their limitations as have not even attempted to put up a sensible challenge.
Senor Escobedo or any of his associates have never explained why he wrote his fantastic article in 2011, then abandoned the points he made so quickly.
Wonder what he wrote it for in the first place? wonder why he abandoned those views so soon after?
Well, what are you waiting for then?, get your backside over in Tenerife and start banging your drum in Santa Cruz!, and if they listen to you, people will be carrying you through the streets as if you were Jesus Christ himself,....you wont get very far whinging on a forum, sat in Barnsley nellie, me ole **** robin.
Altamira
27-02-2013, 11:54
Well, what are you waiting for then?, get your backside over in Tenerife and start banging your drum in Santa Cruz!, and if they listen to you, people will be carrying you through the streets as if you were Jesus Christ himself,....you wont get very far whinging on a forum, sat in Barnsley nellie, me ole **** robin.
ALOTCA Does anyone know when ALOTCA will be holding their next public meeting or AGM? I understand ALOTCA was actually formed to campaign for a change in the tourist law and to question the fines imposed. I suppose the campaign for change should again be raised by the members of the association at their next meeting, surely ALOTCA will have to carry out the members wishes.
ALOTCA Does anyone know when ALOTCA will be holding their next public meeting or AGM? I understand ALOTCA was actually formed to campaign for a change in the tourist law and to question the fines imposed. I suppose the campaign for change should again be raised by the members of the association at their next meeting, surely ALOTCA will have to carry out the members wishes.
From memory, the association was formed to represent the interests of those who had received what were felt to be "outragously" high fines in the context of their activities. Equally, it's objectives were to see the inclusion of villa style properties in the touristic offer.
The founders also made it clear, particularly following initial meetings with Tourismo, that it would not be campaigning or supporting the concept of private letting (aside from the issue above regarding fines) and has I understand met directly with the President of the Cabildo, and has not altered it's objectives. Given the purpose of the formation of the association has not changed fundamentally since it was founded, the membership cannot dictate it fight for their cause if said cause is not part of the constitution and objectives of the organisation
Nellie is a member, so perhaps he could enlighten you/us as to the latest news?
ALOTCA surely ALOTCA will have to carry out the members wishes.
Under their guidance of course.
They don't give us any news or seek out our views at all.they want to sit around and wait for the new law to be finalised before saying anything about it, despite the fear amongst many none renting residential owners in the touristics who face compulsory eviction or 30000 euro fines.
Quite what they think they want to achieve or how they think that they are going to tackle any part of the whole mess, I have no idea.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Any one at all who says anything ja finds disagreeable gets a hissy fit tantrum and no debate or different opinion is possible
She does have a habit of closing comments on posts just as they start getting interesting ill give you that
But you'll still need a sole agent to rent out to tourists.
They don't give us any news or seek out our views at all.they want to sit around and wait for the new law to be finalised before saying anything about it, despite the fear amongst many none renting residential owners in the touristics who face compulsory eviction or 30000 euro fines.
Quite what they think they want to achieve or how they think that they are going to tackle any part of the whole mess, I have no idea.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Any one at all who says anything ja finds disagreeable gets a hissy fit tantrum and no debate or different opinion is possible
When you consider that this thread now has nearly 6000 posts and hasn't really moved on a great deal then you can see why perhaps JA doesn't want to go down the same route on her pages which are more aimed at providing information.
If you feel that Alotca aren't doing enough for you then you will need to consider setting up your own group.
Altamira
28-02-2013, 10:09
They don't give us any news or seek out our views at all.they want to sit around and wait for the new law to be finalised before saying anything about it, despite the fear amongst many none renting residential owners in the touristics who face compulsory eviction or 30000 euro fines.
Quite what they think they want to achieve or how they think that they are going to tackle any part of the whole mess, I have no idea.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Any one at all who says anything ja finds disagreeable gets a hissy fit tantrum and no debate or different opinion is possible
ALOTCA I suppose some of the legal advisers connected to ALOTCA may be a bit concerned regarding their own position. I assume some lawyers may have failed to advise their clients that private rentals were illegal.
During 2011, I was looking at buying another apartment nearby to rent out and advised my lawyer of my intentions and at no time was I informed that it was illegal.
I noticed in the JA blog that JA commented she had been sitting on the translation/interpretation of the new laws, as to avoid panic!!!!!!!!!? I think the Tenerife Forum provides an excellent platform for an open debate where others may be a bit more cautious.
I think the first question to be asked is what is his professional relationship with the Konrad Empire ,before he gives any advice or info. !
The lawyer is the one used by the community to take debtors to court etc. He is not one Konrad's lawyers.
They don't give us any news or seek out our views at all.they want to sit around and wait for the new law to be finalised before saying anything about it, despite the fear amongst many none renting residential owners in the touristics who face compulsory eviction or 30000 euro fines.
Quite what they think they want to achieve or how they think that they are going to tackle any part of the whole mess, I have no idea.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Any one at all who says anything ja finds disagreeable gets a hissy fit tantrum and no debate or different opinion is possible
I'm not sure this is quite right. My understanding is that Alotca have held several meetings with Government officials during which they have put forward their points, which is all they can actually do. Now the points and issues raised have been put into the system all they, and anyone else for that matter, can do is to monitor the progress of the proposals as they come up for discussion in Parliament.
For the moment, and whilst the new proposals take shape and as it becomes clearer whether any of the views they have put forward have been incorporated or taken into account there is little else they can do? They are not elected members of Parliament and therefore are not part of the decision making progress.
As to the level of fines, then they have assisted, guided and put those fined in touch with legal experts who in turn have put the issue in the hands of the courts - I can't see they they could do much more?
You must remember there is a world of difference between the wording of a law and the implications of that wording in law - and from the point of view of many of those caught up in the present law and the implications of any new amendments there is also the issue of translation of legal Spanish to everyday Spanish, and then onward to English, German and so on.
For example, you say many residents are facing compulsory eviction - as yet this is not the case as I understand it. If it were to be set in statute by the end of the process then that is a very different situation indeed - and one that has much wider implications.
For the moment though, unless you base yourself here and perhaps get yourself appointed to the steering committee, you'll have to sit back and watch the progress of the proposals as they grind their way through the Canarian Parliament like the rest of us.
junglejim
28-02-2013, 10:35
The lawyer is the one used by the community to take debtors to court etc. He is not one Konrad's lawyers.
I would still ask the question ,our experience of Konrad and his connections on our complex was quite illuminating!
Having said that , only the owners getting organised to help themselves can move their situation forward - having a compliant president doesn´t help either .
ALOTCA I suppose some of the legal advisers connected to ALOTCA may be a bit concerned regarding their own position. I assume some lawyers may have failed to advise their clients that private rentals were illegal.
During 2011, I was looking at buying another apartment nearby to rent out and advised my lawyer of my intentions and at no time was I informed that it was illegal.
I noticed in the JA blog that JA commented she had been sitting on the translation/interpretation of the new laws, as to avoid panic!!!!!!!!!? I think the Tenerife Forum provides an excellent platform for an open debate where others may be a bit more cautious.
Yeah don't understand the logic there, if you're trying to be an open source of info and report that there's a new law out and paste the whole law into the report without translating it...... When you have translated it..... That's a little nannyish and questionable as to how open the source now is.
Surely you can put the info out there and quell fears if any actually arise?
Yeah don't understand the logic there, if you're trying to be an open source of info and report that there's a new law out and paste the whole law into the report without translating it...... When you have translated it..... That's a little nannyish and questionable as to how open the source now is.
Surely you can put the info out there and quell fears if any actually arise?
the site promotes debate , just like on here, its readers comments. With the letting issue , as soon as anyone posts anything critical of Ja/ alotca opinion, and this might be simple trying to suggest otherways to campaign or other ideas as to alotcas direction, well that often results in the said readers comments section being closed at that point.
My only gripe is how Senor Escobedo wrote is December 2011 article proposing the permited private letting, and then without explanation he never has mentioned it ever after. I personally feel that this was the direction the protest group needed to move in, and I would have supported them and contributed financeially to the fighting fund, if this simple issue had been the sensible focus of opposition.
Senor Escobedo knows Private renting is never going to happen so why bother campaigning for it ?
Senor Escobedo knows Private renting is never going to happen so why bother campaigning for it ?
And he has most of the people fined as client. A win win situation.
And he has most of the people fined as client. A win win situation.
I suppose there is always that...
I suppose there is always that...
but he did post a very good article making a full and sensible argument for legal individual letting in late 2011. As I have been saying, alotca abandoned that position in early 2012.
Of course legal individual letting will arrive in the canaries, it would be absurd to expect this simple world wide normal activity not to become the norm. The daft letting law restrictions, sole agency etc , can not remain for long, nothing as absurd and un real as they are could remain unchallenged.
That would be to imagine we live in a world without progress or improvement, and a world that does not evolve for the better.
People will be suprised how quickly this nonsense is reformed and how quickly this ridiculous nonsense is swept away and normality can return.
Nelson do you think they will change it in the next modification of the law if it is not included in the draft ?
Is that what you think ???
junglejim
02-03-2013, 09:09
Nelson ,I am wholely unimpressed by what Alotca has done or is doing but they have their strategy and are standing by it . In my opinion if the "illegal letting" people want to find out if they have any influence or power in the tourism sector a simple exercise is possible .
Pick a suitable month , then all agree for that month not to let your property out to anyone ( you could even use that month to upgrade ) this will have (or not) a distinct effect on the economy with reduce income all round .
It would take a great deal of organising but it is possible if you really want to make a statement.
If it´s effective then you may persuade Tourismo to listen-if not ,then accept you´re screwed and move on with your lives .
The thing is its early days. The disappointment is that alotca is not suggesting such a tactic, but in the past we all accept that getting everyone to support such a strike would be difficult . I used to say to alotca that if they just threatened and announced the strike then with the negative publicity, the impact would be massive, even if the strike itself came to nothing. Shine the headlines , canaries apartments on strike August 2013. The effect would be to put people off all bookings in the canaries, such would be the impact, legal or not. That would make the govt sit up, it would matter if the strike was a flop on the day.
But as I say to 9 plus, the matter will sort. Itself, tourism will decline due to the lack of Internet ads, that's summer footfall the economy needs.also the property building sector needs the normal buying and selling based on letting properties being on the market and selling.
Watch summer 2013, the govt say its a boom for numbers,well if that's true the islands have no problems, the lifeguards can be paid, in reality this govt will have to face up to their economic problems, that will cause them to have to accept legal individual letting in time , like the rest of the world.
Altamira
02-03-2013, 10:38
ALOTCA ALOTCA needs to attract many registered members before it can become a significant pressure group. I am therefore very surprised that ALOTCA don't appear to have a dedicated website, surely it needs one, so that they can attract members, give regular updates and have a members section, with a members blog site.
junglejim
02-03-2013, 10:42
It´s not a strike nelson -you´d just be obeying the law for a month!
Alotca is as dormant as many complex licences - Snr Escobedo is very busy with his lucrative court cases and other rental proposals so doesn´t seem bothered about pressure groups , in my opinion !
What's the bet you'd pick traditionally quiet months when you do this? Lol
I dare you to do it from 20th December to 20th January !!
but he did post a very good article making a full and sensible argument for legal individual letting in late 2011. As I have been saying, alotca abandoned that position in early 2012.
Of course legal individual letting will arrive in the canaries, it would be absurd to expect this simple world wide normal activity not to become the norm. The daft letting law restrictions, sole agency etc , can not remain for long, nothing as absurd and un real as they are could remain unchallenged.
That would be to imagine we live in a world without progress or improvement, and a world that does not evolve for the better.
People will be suprised how quickly this nonsense is reformed and how quickly this ridiculous nonsense is swept away and normality can return.
Surprised wouldn't be the word if any of your imaginative dreams became reality still it's fun watching you attempt to convince yourself.Use the same amount of time and energy to get your complex legalized with an onsite agent and then you would surprise us all.
The real world always wins through. The Berlin Wall came down, the soviet block became democratic and free.
Spain is in transition from dictatorship to democracy.
People the world over in their millions are renting out their holiday homes quite freely with Internet ads. It's normal and uncontroversial , to expect the Canary Islands to continue to try to enforce a restrictive unnecessary system of holiday letting, for many years to come , would be absurd.
Alotca may have done little to help, but the change will come.
^^^^^^^^^ we were overdue one of those
^^^^^^^^^ we were overdue one of those
Ha ha, but that's the way this wonderful world should and does move forward, for good and reason. It's hard to believe that the canary govt could ever design such an unnecessary system, to regulate such a straightforward activity. All that is needed now is to get a sensible tax contribution from the renters and let them get on with it. Not to do this is a crime against the canary economy and people.
E commerce is a fact and the canaries need to be a part of that, there is no need for rancour or discord at all, but reality inevitably will end up coming through and the reality will be like the rest of the world
bonitatime
02-03-2013, 14:55
Residents dont want their complex es rented out to tourists. Hotels don't want private apartments rented out to tourists. The European high courts have stated that the canaries is special and can keep this law.
Now we have the people living here, working here and the government on one side and some mostly foreign nonresident apartment holders in the other who have mostly not been paying tax or social security on staff and tax on income or IGIC.
Who s going to campagain?
Altamira
02-03-2013, 15:08
Residents dont want their complex es rented out to tourists. Hotels don't want private apartments rented out to tourists. The European high courts have stated that the canaries is special and can keep this law.
Now we have the people living here, working here and the government on one side and some mostly foreign nonresident apartment holders in the other who have mostly not been paying tax or social security on staff and tax on income or IGIC.
Who s going to campagain?
Tourists - ALOTCA Hello Bonitatime, I think you forgot to mention that many apartment owners do not want to use sole agents, but they do want to rent to tourists and this is good for the Canary economy. Many owners do pay their tax and the ALOTCA should be doing the campaign.
Altamira
02-03-2013, 17:31
Campaign for what ?Campaign Campaign for a more user friendly system for tourist licensed apartment rentals, with all options explored. However I think ALOTCA & owners may at this stage have to wait and see what form the proposed new laws will finally mean.
The current system is the best for the tourist yeah ?
golf birdie
02-03-2013, 19:12
The current system is the best for the tourist yeah ?
as Malibu park proved the other night, top class apartments.
People renting out individually that's so the rest of the world.
as Malibu park proved the other night, top class apartments.
I won a holiday for 2 in Malibu Park in a raffle...
First prize... One week self catering
2nd prize...One month A/Inclusive ...:wow: :wink: :D
3rd prize...€15000 fine
x
I see Janet has just posted something of interest
I think she has taken it off now....I'm dying to know what it was!!
Was about tourist inspectors knocking on doors with questionnaires about holidays..... How long staying for , how much did they pay etc......
"It appears that privately-owned apartments are being visited by “public officers making a customer satisfaction survey”. It seems they are asking the owners, or their guests, how long they are staying, how much their holiday cost, and whether they are happy with the tourist services included with their booking. Evidently, owners will not be able [...]"
junglejim
07-03-2013, 20:12
So just like the timeshare people ,they are misrepesenting who they are - are they storing the data too?
tenerifelegal
07-03-2013, 20:17
Did it not say it was in Eastern Spain and May happen in Tenerife ??
Could be related to a timeshare scam
Could be related to the inspectors
Could be related to Tenerife gobshyte news.
That's all I could read before it was deleted
So just like the timeshare people ,they are misrepesenting who they are - are they storing the data too?
Lets wait and see what it was when she reports it
junglejim
07-03-2013, 20:26
Could be Family and Friends related!!
Hitler would never of agreed with that
duncan-6
07-03-2013, 20:42
Is this your apartment senor?
No, its my dad's, and he hates you alice in wonderland *******s.
seanocelt
08-03-2013, 03:15
Guys it also "could be " serious. I missed Janet's post ( to be clarified tomorrow i read) but i heard a very similar tale the day before, from someone i trust, that indeed door knocking is the latest way to ask questions due to limited resources. Just something i heard.
It's a pro active tactic to attack the quiet renters who now don't Internet advertise but are trying to carry on under the radar.
It would seem that the govt want to stop the renting full stop without a care for the economic consequences.
Can only be the hotels pulling the strings , still thinking/ hoping that this will mean greater occupancy for them.
It's a pro active tactic to attack the quiet renters who now don't Internet advertise but are trying to carry on under the radar.
It would seem that the govt want to stop the renting full stop without a care for the economic consequences.
Can only be the hotels pulling the strings , still thinking/ hoping that this will mean greater occupancy for them.
Oh so does that mean maybe your presumption was wrong about scraping it ?
bonitatime
08-03-2013, 18:00
Interesting article in todays paper
Although numbers are slightly down for tourists spend is up And there are expected to be more jobs
Source La opinión
Oh so does that mean maybe your presumption was wrong about scraping it ?
you know I am not wrong, the whole thing is barking mad and has to end in the future, thats the way of the world. yes the authorities are still on their insane and irrational course, but this is early days. Powerful people with influence over govt have demanded this action.Their problem is that private renting has flourished in the canaries, and greatly helped the economy over many years. Its a normal part of the holiday accomodation offering. The modern internet ads are part of this sector, and e comerce is a growing trend.
None of that activity should be in any way controversial, its absurd that there is any sort of crackdown. Tourismo , who are responsible for the tourist sector, are constituionally bound to act in full accordance with what is best for the whole canarian economy and people. The crackdown and blind resistance to holiday home renting flys in the face of reason, economic and structiural. In the real world renting holiday homes is an uncontroversial and normal activity.
The canaries will have to in the end bend to reality. The continuance of the attack now does not mean that in the near future the situation will not be sensibly resolved. As I have said many times, human affairs advance for the better and injustices end.
A change will come.
Sadly though, I do not share your confidence.
If anything, and as a partial result of the economic crash, more and more countries and major cities which rely on tourism as a significant part of their economies appear to be introducing controls rather than allowing private letting of the type that has developed here over the recent years.
You may wish for a change, but it will not necessarily come.
The change will come when you realize that your voice is not being heard and for the majority of members, who understand how and why the law came about,
it makes perfect sense to have an accountable agent on site and with resposibility for making sure that safety regulations are obeyed,taxes paid and someone is on call at all times.All this brought on by irresponsible,non tax paying, absent owners in the past.Tourism will increase ,it hasn't really fallen during the worst economic crisis in many years,so that's good news and the quality will also improve.You know it makes sense!!!
Darth Vader: There is no escape! Don't make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your power! Join me, and I will complete your training! With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy.
Luke Skywalker: [angrily] I'll never join you!
Vader: If only you knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Skywalker: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Vader: No, I am your father.
Skywalker: [shocked] No. No! That's not true! That's impossible!
Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Skywalker: NOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOO!!!
Vader: Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son! Come with me. It is the only way.
[Luke lets go of the projection and falls into the shaft]
junglejim
08-03-2013, 20:19
For Nelson with manlove !
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/52/ibrmjp4hq7qfba.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/824/ibrmjp4hq7qfba.gif/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Darth Vader: There is no escape! Don't make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You've only begun to discover your power! Join me, and I will complete your training! With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy.
Luke Skywalker: [angrily] I'll never join you!
Vader: If only you knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father.
Skywalker: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Vader: No, I am your father.
Skywalker: [shocked] No. No! That's not true! That's impossible!
Vader: Search your feelings, you know it to be true!
Skywalker: NOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOO!!!
Vader: Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny! Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son! Come with me. It is the only way.
[Luke lets go of the projection and falls into the shaft]
The farce is strong with this one
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