View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
delderek
05-04-2013, 18:43
Just seeking clarification on this one point, as there seems to be different opinions on how many votes are needed to become the sole exploitation company.
Other than maybe on a small complex, you will never get all owners to vote, no matter what the vote is for.
For example on our complex the voting co-efficient at a recent AGM was less than 50%, and that has been the norm for a number of years now.
If a new exploitation company were to come along wanting to "oust" the existing one for whatever reason (we are a Touristic complex by the way),
do they really need to obtain 50%+1 of ALL owners, or just more votes than the existing company could manage?
I have heard it said that just 50%+1 of all votes cast is needed, not 50%+1 of ALL owners. Which interpretation is correct?
To almost repeat my earlier answer,,,no one votes, nothing to do with the community. Any agent that signs up 50%+1 of apartments can become the sole agent. The community have no say whatsoever.
As del says they'd have to speak to every owner individually and persuade them to sign a document authorising the "agent to be" to touristically let their property. Once they have got 50%+1 they'd have to go to the tourist board and present all of those documents along with all other paperwork the tourist board may require.
junglejim
05-04-2013, 19:06
^ Blimey who let the gimp out?
Wasn´t it Zed ?- but "Zed´s Dead Baby" !
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To almost repeat my earlier answer,,,no one votes, nothing to do with the community. Any agent that signs up 50%+1 of apartments can become the sole agent. The community have no say whatsoever.
Surely Delderek if the complex has no licence then 100% of community must vote in favour of becoming a touristic complex before the sole agent recruits his 50% +1 participants , as far as I understand ?
delderek
05-04-2013, 19:22
Wasn´t it Zed ?- but "Zed´s Dead Baby" !
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Surely Delderek if the complex has no licence then 100% of community must vote in favour of becoming a touristic complex before the sole agent recruits his 50% +1 participants , as far as I understand ?
Yes I think you are correct.(If indeed it is at all possible, depends on the statutes I believe) I was commenting on Touristic complexes.
junglejim
05-04-2013, 19:26
Yes I think you are correct.(If indeed it is at all possible, depends on the statutes I believe) I was commenting on Touristic complexes.
We are a dormant touristic complex and that is the process we have be legally advised to follow -100% of community must vote in favour then 50%+1 sign up to sole agent .
Then address all the issues on compliance that Loaded has previously alluded to !
delderek
05-04-2013, 19:32
We are a dormant touristic complex and that is the process we have be legally advised to follow -100% of community must vote in favour then 50%+1 sign up to sole agent .
Then address all the issues on compliance that Loaded has previously alluded to !
I hope you have great "staying power" I think your'e gonna need it:bowdown:
Altamira
05-04-2013, 19:40
We are a dormant touristic complex and that is the process we have be legally advised to follow -100% of community must vote in favour then 50%+1 sign up to sole agent .
Then address all the issues on compliance that Loaded has previously alluded to !
Tourist Complex Hello Jungle Jim, please excuse my ignorance but I am keen to learn more about the procedure. Surely if the complex was built with a tourist designation then it remains with that designation, if considered dormant is it then in a state of limbo? or in no mans land? however it is doubtful if it becomes residential and logic would suggest that the dormant tourist complex would only need 50% + 1 to nominate a sole agent to take over.
junglejim
05-04-2013, 20:17
Delderek - I don´t let my apartment , I stay in it most of year - the issue is for others on complex who wish to continue renting (legally) , my issue is on who pays for Touristic costs . Legally I could vote against the application to go for a licence and stop the process in it´s tracks ( so advised ) but I do not wish to do that .
Altimira - the legal advice our community was given was to follow previously explained procedure (which I believe Loaded agreed some time ago) - our Licence was terminated by Konrad when he left our complex , though we were designated a Touristic complex we now no longer have a Licence and have been advised this is the procedure we must follow .
However the new proposed law may actually force complexes such as ours to have a Licence (due to designation) and an outside Sole Agent appointed - so better the Devil you know perhaps ?
I believe there have been Touristic complexes that have reverted to Residential .
Am I right in saying you don't let your apartment JJ ?
junglejim
05-04-2013, 20:35
I'm a right in saying you don't let your apartment JJ ?
I use it most of year , twice my son has used it with his friends - no charge and once a good friend used it and we accepted cleaning costs and a meal .
I was advised when I bought the apartment from Tenerife Properties that it had good rental potential but he failed to mention the 1995 law although 70% of owners on our complex rent .
If its dormant touristic you don't need the communities approval to seek the 50%+1
Altamira
05-04-2013, 21:30
If its dormant touristic you don't need the communities approval to seek the 50%+1
Dormant Existence Hello Loaded, are you saying that if the complex is dormant, then it is easy for it to acquire a tourist licence if it has just 50% + 1 to adopt a sole agent and that it does not need 100% of the community to approve the tourist license application to proceed.
As I understood it, a dormant touristic complex automatically becomes a residential. I know my complex is classed residential at the moment but I suspect it is a dormant touristic, problem is, how do I find out? Can anyone advise me where to go to find out?
junglejim
05-04-2013, 21:59
As I understood it, a dormant touristic complex automatically becomes a residential. I know my complex is classed residential at the moment but I suspect it is a dormant touristic, problem is, how do I find out? Can anyone advise me where to go to find out?
The Administrator should have the details or even the President .
Dormant Existence Hello Loaded, are you saying that if the complex is dormant, then it is easy for it to acquire a tourist licence if it has just 50% + 1 to adopt a sole agent and that it does not need 100% of the community to approve the tourist license application to proceed.
I didn't say it was easy but yes.
The complex still has a license just No license holder - without both its "dormant" .
The hardest part is getting all the 50%+1 to give you the power
Thanks Junglejim. Only problem is, strange as it may seem my complex doesn't have a community, so no Administrator and no President. I know it sounds odd but it's true and in the 10 years we've owned it we have never had any communication from anyone whatsoever, nor meeting, nothing! There is a Manager who seems to run it and I emailed him but didn't receive an answer and he's difficult to talk to and keeps things very close to his chest. I'll try again of course, but wondered if there was an official list somewhere - maybe at the Ayuntamiento.
As I understood it, a dormant touristic complex automatically becomes a residential. I know my complex is classed residential at the moment but I suspect it is a dormant touristic, problem is, how do I find out? Can anyone advise me where to go to find out?
Don't ask your president or admin- or at least don't take what they say as gospel as there may be a hidden agenda....
Go to the cabildo in Santa Cruz and ask if there is a touristic license for your complex then if yes. Ask who the license holder is .
Or pm me and ill find out for you if I can
junglejim
05-04-2013, 22:18
If its dormant touristic you don't need the communities approval to seek the 50%+1
This is what you said on 24/06/2012
"the 100% was reduced to 50% +1 but now if the registration has been scrapped by the tourist board (something they were checking up on these last few months) then 100% are now needed again."
In our case the licence has lapsed so we would need 100% to vote in favour of applying to be Touristic , then the Agent (whoever that might be ) has to get the requesite amount signed up and compliance organised .
Thanks Loaded. Yes, I've always felt there was some sort of hidden agenda but suspect it was touristic as there is an office. If I ask there however they 'close ranks' and insist it's residential and I can't seem to get any information out of them. I'll try the Cabildo - thanks for a good suggestion.
This is what you said on 24/06/2012
"the 100% was reduced to 50% +1 but now if the registration has been scrapped by the tourist board (something they were checking up on these last few months) then 100% are now needed again."
In our case the licence has lapsed so we would need 100% to vote in favour of applying to be Touristic , then the Agent (whoever that might be ) has to get the requesite amount signed up and compliance organised .
Not quite you're confusing things.
1. The community is irrelevant in this .
2. You need 50%+1 to get registered of the license is still active and the complex hasn't been "closed for business" by the cabildo .
3. If you have been closed down then you will need 100% of the owners to sign the authorisations for the sole agent to get the license back. This is not a community meeting vote .
Thanks Loaded. Yes, I've always felt there was some sort of hidden agenda but suspect it was touristic as there is an office. If I ask there however they 'close ranks' and insist it's residential and I can't seem to get any information out of them. I'll try the Cabildo - thanks for a good suggestion.
Pm me the name of the complex and ill have a dig
I've messaged you Loaded - thanks!
Altamira
05-04-2013, 23:49
Not quite you're confusing things.
1. The community is irrelevant in this .
2. You need 50%+1 to get registered of the license is still active and the complex hasn't been "closed for business" by the cabildo .
3. If you have been closed down then you will need 100% of the owners to sign the authorisations for the sole agent to get the license back. This is not a community meeting vote .
Dormant Touristic Hello Loaded, if a complex has been reduced to dormant tourist does it then by default become residential? or is it within no mans land?
onelegnofeet
06-04-2013, 08:59
^ Blimey who let the gimp out?
LOL....No not let out ,Drafted in by a questionable lady .Women BAH!!!
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[QUOTE=junglejim;276988]Wasn´t it Zed ?- but "Zed´s Dead Baby" !
Blimey i would take breast feeding !! LMAO
Dormant Touristic Hello Loaded, if a complex has been reduced to dormant tourist does it then by default become residential? or is it within no mans land?
Yeah it's in limbo until either someone regains the license with 50%+1 or until an inspector comes round and "closes" it.
duncan-6
07-04-2013, 17:10
If a complex has owners who have been fined, no lifeguard, reception,shop,sole agent then it MUST be dormant, nelson is wrong.
Hilarious goings on over on the ja site. I had noticed myself a very odd tone coming from the alotca group. Sort of changing their position from being a campaign group against the crack down to actually saying the canary govt might have got it spot on right about the issue all along .
Commenters are starting to mention this odd state of affairs to ja , it all seems a bit of of muddle. The alotca lawyers are dead against bd eu law being the end of of the problem and of course they keep insisting on calling a system of individual permitted letting a free for all.
It's very amusing as many people thought the website/ alotca were in the beginning against the crackdown but have observed this odd transition .
As I have said before, if you do get a fine decide yourself who you want to help you, the John hatrick company seem at least consistent .
Hilarious goings on over on the ja site. I had noticed myself a very odd tone coming from the alotca group. Sort of changing their position from being a campaign group against the crack down to actually saying the canary govt might have got it spot on right about the issue all along .
Commenters are starting to mention this odd state of affairs to ja , it all seems a bit of of muddle. The alotca lawyers are dead against bd eu law being the end of of the problem and of course they keep insisting on calling a system of individual permitted letting a free for all.
It's very amusing as many people thought the website/ alotca were in the beginning against the crackdown but have observed this odd transition .
As I have said before, if you do get a fine decide yourself who you want to help you, the John hatrick company seem at least consistent .
.... only because they tell you what you want to hear
welshman
07-04-2013, 18:14
I don,think anyone knows whats going to happen. If goverments can steal money out of your bank account nothing will supprise me.
New law in Adeje no hanging of laundry lines on terrace. The local councilors must have shares in a Laurdry business !!! Brown envelopes :lol::lol::lol:
Hilarious goings on over on the ja site. I had noticed myself a very odd tone coming from the alotca group. Sort of changing their position from being a campaign group against the crack down to actually saying the canary govt might have got it spot on right about the issue all along .
Commenters are starting to mention this odd state of affairs to ja , it all seems a bit of of muddle. The alotca lawyers are dead against bd eu law being the end of of the problem and of course they keep insisting on calling a system of individual permitted letting a free for all.
It's very amusing as many people thought the website/ alotca were in the beginning against the crackdown but have observed this odd transition .
As I have said before, if you do get a fine decide yourself who you want to help you, the John hatrick company seem at least consistent .
Yes very consistent : the first article said it was 3 owners who'd had the cases against them thrown out and then the most recent article says it was three companies .....
I don,think anyone knows whats going to happen. If goverments can steal money out of your bank account nothing will supprise me.
New law in Adeje no hanging of laundry lines on terrace. The local councilors must have shares in a Laurdry business !!! Brown envelopes :lol::lol::lol:
That's a great law! Nothing looks worse than other people's washing visible from outside!
welshman
07-04-2013, 21:17
That's a great law! Nothing looks worse than other people's washing visible from outside!
That's what you get living in an apartment block wish we had the opportunity , as our electricity bill is through the roof with this weather tumble dryer non stop
a real storm in a tea cup the washing line law, but again does show the hotels mindset. The odd fact that this washing hanging out since time began is not considered, just a recent brainwave that the washing might just be lowering the tone of the area as far as the 5 star dream is concerned.
reminds me of the funny story by my fellow yorkshireman and world famous artist david hockney. When his mum was visiting him in los angelese he took her to a beverly hills viewing point to enjoy the view accross the sunny valley. She scowled and remarked , " such a wonderful drying day and no sign of any washing hanging out, what a shame"
delderek
07-04-2013, 21:43
Its already a rule in many complexes and has been for years.
I heard this came about because they'd seen what a run down shanty town Sur y Sol had become, what with legal tourist accommodation and unauthorized taxi firms operating from there.
They just didn't want that kind of scene spreading into their municipal.
Don't know about washing on balconies in 2 star sur y sol, can't see that causing much hassle. In October 2000 when we were staying in the 4 star conquistador mrs nelson soon put up her makeshift washing line. Well what was a Yorkshire mum supposed to do what with two tiny tots and yours truly to sort out. However things went arie when the bloke on the next balcony was seen interfering with mrs nelson s makeshift line. Nothing was said but on returning home mrs nelson was minus a pair of black lace undies.
Thus makeshift washing lines can cause problems with knicker nabbers, even in the most well healed of places.
Perhaps the culprit like the victims is member of this forum today?
hahahhahahaa that Zarion was a little bugger but we soon put him into place
Maybe it's the person on the JA site Nelson - they're certainly getting their knickers in a twist!! I'd noticed the change of tone as well - very odd, do you think they know something we don't?!
Maybe it's the person on the JA site Nelson - they're certainly getting their knickers in a twist!! I'd noticed the change of tone as well - very odd, do you think they know something we don't?!
More like JA attracted some freeloading Trolls
cheers
x
a real storm in a tea cup the washing line law, but again does show the hotels mindset. The odd fact that this washing hanging out since time began is not considered, just a recent brainwave that the washing might just be lowering the tone of the area as far as the 5 star dream is concerned."
Perhaps if the washing line was lowered then the tone would never have lowered?
I think I speak for all of us when I say Los Cristianos does not want to see mrs nelsons blurgs wafting in the wind next to mr nelsons skiddy keks.
Maybe it's the person on the JA site Nelson - they're certainly getting their knickers in a twist!! I'd noticed the change of tone as well - very odd, do you think they know something we don't?!
It's been an odd carry on nearly from the word go. First Escobedo wrote the excellent article arguing for permitted individual letting, then just after that alotca came out for just better control of sole agents. They constantly refer to a permitted system of individual letting as a free for all.
Just latley the line seems to be, well who says Spain/ canaries have not got this right or are entitled to make these laws. All talk of the bd euro thing is absolute heresay to them.
Maybe ja/ Escobedo were kidnapped around Xmas 2011, and are being held against their will somewhere on a remote island ?
Perhaps the sites tone bizarre recent tone is due to some kind of foul play?
It's been an odd carry on nearly from the word go. First Escobedo wrote the excellent article arguing for permitted individual letting, then just after that alotca came out for just better control of sole agents. They constantly refer to a permitted system of individual letting as a free for all.
Just latley the line seems to be, well who says Spain/ canaries have not got this right or are entitled to make these laws. All talk of the bd euro thing is absolute heresay to them.
Maybe ja/ Escobedo were kidnapped around Xmas 2011, and are being held against their will somewhere on a remote island ?
Perhaps the sites tone bizarre recent tone is due to some kind of foul play?
What are you on about nelson ?? I don't know how many times Janet has to explain the remit of Alocta. These people have had close contact with Turismo and the Government, which I do not think can be said for other lawyers ... they do not think that certain changes that you want are in anyway possible
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And a little homework for you nelson ... I think you did say you have a reasonable command of Spanish, no?
You think the "bd euro thing" is the salvation of all and the Canaries have ignored it and so judges will throw out all cases regarding fines?
Well, you see, there's this act in 2009 with the following preamble:
EXPOSICIÓN DE MOTIVOS (http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/CCAA/ic-l14-2009.html)
La Ley 7/1995, de 6 de abril, puso las bases de la ordenación del turismo en Canarias, contribuyendo con ello a potenciar este sector tan decisivo en la economía del Archipiélago.
La Ley planteó, como objetivos fundamentales, la consideración del fenómeno turístico desde una dimensión multidisciplinar, la delimitación competencial en materia de turismo entre las distintas administraciones públicas canarias, la valoración de los recursos turísticos, la regulación integral de la oferta, la protección al usuario de servicios de esta naturaleza y la ordenación del sector vinculado al turismo.
Estos objetivos han de ser revisados y actualizados a la luz de la Directiva 2006/123/CE, del Parlamento Europeo y del Consejo, de 12 de diciembre de 2006, relativa a los servicios en el mercado interior (DO 376, de 27.12.06). Esta Directiva se plantea como objetivo avanzar hacia un auténtico mercado interior de los servicios que goce de mayor libertad en el que los Estados miembros se vean obligados a suprimir las barreras que impidan u obstaculicen, directa o indirectamente, el establecimiento de nuevos negocios o la prestación transfronteriza de servicios, garantizando que, tanto los prestadores como los destinatarios de los servicios, se beneficien de la libertad de establecimiento y la de prestación de servicios consagradas en los artículos 43 y 49 del Tratado Constitutivo de la Comunidad Europea, promoviendo la simplificación de procedimientos y la eliminación de obstáculos a las actividades de servicios y potenciando la confianza recíproca entre Estados miembros y entre prestadores y consumidores en el mercado interior.
Apoyando e impulsando el desarrollo de un mercado interior de los servicios fuerte e integrado, la Directiva de Servicios confía en hacer realidad el considerable potencial de crecimiento económico y de creación de empleo del sector de los servicios en Europa, aliándose de forma decidida con la Estrategia de Lisboa de crecimiento y empleo.
La Directiva de Servicios resulta aplicable a una amplia gama de actividades y, entre ellas, a los servicios turísticos, incluyendo expresamente los de alojamiento y restauración, los que prestan las agencias de viaje y los guías de turismo y los servicios de ocio (considerando 33).
Yes, that's right .... the 1995 Act has already been amended in line with Bolkestein ! The famous three cases refer to fines prior to this.
What are you on about nelson ?? I don't know how many times Janet has to explain the remit of Alocta. These people have had close contact with Turismo and the Government, which I do not think can be said for other lawyers ... they do not think that certain changes that you want are in anyway possible
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And a little homework for you nelson ... I think you did say you have a reasonable command of Spanish, no?
You think the "bd euro thing" is the salvation of all and the Canaries have ignored it and so judges will throw out all cases regarding fines?
Well, you see, there's this act in 2009 with the following preamble:
EXPOSICIÓN DE MOTIVOS (http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/CCAA/ic-l14-2009.html)
La Ley 7/1995, de 6 de abril, puso las bases de la ordenación del turismo en Canarias, contribuyendo con ello a potenciar este sector tan decisivo en la economía del Archipiélago.
La Ley planteó, como objetivos fundamentales, la consideración del fenómeno turístico desde una dimensión multidisciplinar, la delimitación competencial en materia de turismo entre las distintas administraciones públicas canarias, la valoración de los recursos turísticos, la regulación integral de la oferta, la protección al usuario de servicios de esta naturaleza y la ordenación del sector vinculado al turismo.
Estos objetivos han de ser revisados y actualizados a la luz de la Directiva 2006/123/CE, del Parlamento Europeo y del Consejo, de 12 de diciembre de 2006, relativa a los servicios en el mercado interior (DO 376, de 27.12.06). Esta Directiva se plantea como objetivo avanzar hacia un auténtico mercado interior de los servicios que goce de mayor libertad en el que los Estados miembros se vean obligados a suprimir las barreras que impidan u obstaculicen, directa o indirectamente, el establecimiento de nuevos negocios o la prestación transfronteriza de servicios, garantizando que, tanto los prestadores como los destinatarios de los servicios, se beneficien de la libertad de establecimiento y la de prestación de servicios consagradas en los artículos 43 y 49 del Tratado Constitutivo de la Comunidad Europea, promoviendo la simplificación de procedimientos y la eliminación de obstáculos a las actividades de servicios y potenciando la confianza recíproca entre Estados miembros y entre prestadores y consumidores en el mercado interior.
Apoyando e impulsando el desarrollo de un mercado interior de los servicios fuerte e integrado, la Directiva de Servicios confía en hacer realidad el considerable potencial de crecimiento económico y de creación de empleo del sector de los servicios en Europa, aliándose de forma decidida con la Estrategia de Lisboa de crecimiento y empleo.
La Directiva de Servicios resulta aplicable a una amplia gama de actividades y, entre ellas, a los servicios turísticos, incluyendo expresamente los de alojamiento y restauración, los que prestan las agencias de viaje y los guías de turismo y los servicios de ocio (considerando 33).
Yes, that's right .... the 1995 Act has already been amended in line with Bolkestein ! The famous three cases refer to fines prior to this.
Good post Doreen , using your level head, impartiality and command of the spanish language - would you be so kind as to confirm if these "famous 3 cases" were private owners or perhaps something else????
So then Nellie
The Bolkestein Directive does not, nor cannot overrule the 1995 letting laws in Tenerife as they themselves have already been modified to take account of the areas where there was a clash.
You told us that the 1995 Canarian law was dead in the water since the courts have ruled it illegal in light of the BD. Seems like a fail to me.
The updates to the tourism rules marches it's way through the Canarian Parliament and should be ready in the next month or so.
You told us that the revisions going through Parliament were also dead in the water because of the court ruling and the DB etc - another fail??
The document produced by TFS, which you appear to be promoting, presumably because you believe is correct in law because it suits you so to do, advises owners to carry on letting and should they be fined - well, what a surprise, - do please give us a call so we can charge you lots of money for our services and attempt to appeal your fine for you ........... Sounds like another fail on the way .....
Oh dear Nellie - oh very very dear !!
Blimey John where are you now?
But Doreen , when I do read the amendment , and my level of Spanish would really require an English translation,I would say that they are completely wrong in what they have done. They are still talking about unity of exploitation and hotels and extra hotels. This is the Alice in wonderland nonsense. What euro law is all about is harmonising things throughout Europe. Yes and before you say it the canaries have the special extra periferal status.
But the special status is there to help the economy . The whole problem with sole agency and unity of exploitation is that it's utterly pointless and unnecessary . It does not improve standards or tourism or make any beneficial contribution to the economy. The normal real world alternative of individuals bring free to rent out their holiday homes is a normal and uncontroversial situation the world over .
From reading the so called amendment to the 1995 law , done in 2006, it seems to me that the canary govt did not try to engage the real world at all in their amending. Their amended law is probably illegal when it is it to test in the courts.
It's like a sort of game , the canary govt is trying to pretend that their daft law is not nonsense and that it's quite normal to compel any number of private owners in a complex to rent through one agent overlord and then to run the place like its one big hotel. Get real , private owners of holiday homes need to be legally able to let out each one on their own. That's how the amendment should have been done.
What did they amend that made them think they were then compliant with euro law?
nelson, I'm afraid it is the system you are stuck with and it does comply with the EU Directive.
Yes, the private market has grown immensely in the internet age, and so many governments are now trying to bring in controls, sensing lost revenue.
Howling at the wind, or the Forum, or Janet's blog, will not change the politicians minds about their chosen tourism strategy.
Well Doreen I am happy to agree to disagree on that one. I really can't see the situation remaining unreformed, the govts viewpoint is too far removed from reality and e commerce and holiday home renting are growing, normal and uncontroversial .without over thinking the issue commonsense will inevitably win out in the end.
Remember the govts have ignored this daft law for 15 years, it's not ever really been put to the test , I don't think it will make itself stick now.
So we all agree that the "bolkenstein beats tourist laws" was all a load of bolkenstein??????
So we all agree that the "bolkenstein beats tourist laws" was all a load of bolkenstein??????
No not at all, even with my limited Spanish I can see that the 2006 amendment to comply with bd does no such thing. The govt as I say has tried to amend without engaging the actual issue . They have tried to turn a blind eye to the matter, if you pardon the pun.
Where do you see that? Or are you going to fail to back up your logic yet again ?
Angusjim
09-04-2013, 16:09
Well just stayed at one of Tenerifes finest 3 star fully legal complexes not for me I am afraid I am going back to my illegal complex next time:whistle: If that what the future holds for tourists then they need to rethink the master plan
why not just change apartment, what was so bad about it, anything really different?
thats the bit yoy dont get, you dont harang customers , the make their own free choice and they are king. The eu laws stand up for them and make sure that they have the same options and rights europe wide. And before you think about mentioning extra periferal, thats not meant to make anyone stay in a shabby 3 star apartment run like a hotel.
Notice how John the Solicitor in Tenerife doesn't say anything anymore?
Well just stayed at one of Tenerifes finest 3 star fully legal complexes not for me I am afraid I am going back to my illegal complex next time:whistle: If that what the future holds for tourists then they need to rethink the master plan
By the time the penny finally drops and people finally realise this fiasco is for real it might be too late! As you mentioned in another thread the tumbleweed is the only thing missing at the moment! I mentioned the same phrase about 2 years ago and last time i was over i was stunned to see how many businesses were either struggling or had pulled the shutters down for good, The Patch which used to have a decent day trade was completely empty,the mini market built into PS2 was empty,opposite on CC Centro parade of shops there were more with the shutters down than up,it used to be vibrant there up until a few years ago! PS1 & PS2 which in my opinion are frontline real estate in an enviable location and very well kept pool & gardens are now like a ghost town! It also has a knock on effect on money exchanges,restaurantes,mutiply that 100 times in all the other area's and we can see where the problem lies!
ps...Did the nice Sole agent enhance your holiday experience? I bet you never seen them!
By the time the penny finally drops and people finally realise this fiasco is for real it might be too late! As you mentioned in another thread the tumbleweed is the only thing missing at the moment! I mentioned the same phrase about 2 years ago and last time i was over i was stunned to see how many businesses were either struggling or had pulled the shutters down for good, The Patch which used to have a decent day trade was completely empty,the mini market built into PS2 was empty,opposite on CC Centro parade of shops there were more with the shutters down than up,it used to be vibrant there up until a few years ago! PS1 & PS2 which in my opinion are frontline real estate in an enviable location and very well kept pool & gardens are now like a ghost town! It also has a knock on effect on money exchanges,restaurantes,mutiply that 100 times in all the other area's and we can see where the problem lies!
ps...Did the nice Sole agent enhance your holiday experience? I bet you never seen them!
Hmmm I think city centre struggles because its stuck in the 80s rather than any other reason.....
As for Parque Santiago 1 and 2 .... Go and walk around Santiago 3, 4 and 5.... They're always busy - wonder why that is ......
I stayed in ps4 John it was obviously busier than 1 & 2 but not by much :D Do they have a sole agent? it seems you can book them anywhere ie Travel Republic /expedia etc!
bonitatime
09-04-2013, 19:53
I have a friend who works in Parque Santiago they never have less than 95% occupancy
I have a friend who works in Parque Santiago they never have less than 95% occupancy
Which one bonitatime? 1 & 2 are residential
I stayed in ps4 John it was obviously busier than 1 & 2 but not by much :D Do they have a sole agent? it seems you can book them anywhere ie Travel Republic /expedia etc!
Same with paloma beach - the sole agent contacts travel agents and tour operators such as travel republic, Expedia, venere, booking.com etc and they pay commissions every time a booking is received.
This ensures the complexes are always busy and gets the owners of these places the best possible occupancy.
You can't fill a complex with 200 apartments by advertising them all on holiday Lettings.
bonitatime
09-04-2013, 20:05
3&4 they are controlled together
3&4 they are controlled together
I know its a pity 1&2 can't be added :whistle:
The facilities of ps4 are very good - inside the rooms look basic but the kids area outside is awesome and I know it wasn't cheap - the fountain in the floor is top notch and the bar outside great to chill at. Inside there's a kids area and a gym.... The the pool area is another kids play area and great pool .....
Hard to see what's not to like about the place.
bonitatime
09-04-2013, 20:16
I know its a pity 1&2 can't be added :whistle:
Perhaps with the new law they can change and move into the group ;-)
You can't fill a complex with 200 apartments by advertising them all on holiday Lettings.
Of course you can, that's what the crackdown is all about , any private owner on illegal owners direct can do 40 weeks rented no problem per year. My pre fine record was 93 weeks rented for our two.
The many many commissions and agents you say get a cut to get you your bookings , then you the overlord get your cut, it's totally against euro law, thus the owner gets what you decide and the customer ends up having to pay more .
Then at the same time the illegal canary law try's to stop the customer choosing an apartment that he/she prefers, restricting the market to large complex,s run like nearly hotels.
The facilities of ps4 are very good - inside the rooms look basic but the kids area outside is awesome and I know it wasn't cheap - the fountain in the floor is top notch and the bar outside great to chill at. Inside there's a kids area and a gym.... The the pool area is another kids play area and great pool .....
Hard to see what's not to like about the place.
I didn't say i didn't like it,we stayed in a nice duplex with great views,its just not as homely as PS1 or 2 :hide:
Fivepence
09-04-2013, 20:32
The post count is now approaching #6900 in this ping pong thread and I still find it interesting..... so thank you to the main contributors.
However, the law was passed in 1995 and for some reason it wasn't enforced......................why?
It is now 2013 and enforcement has begun in earnest, some 15+ years after it entered legislation....very strange,
In 1988 the UK Government passed the law to introduce the Community Charge (Poll Tax).
It was implemented in Scotland in 1989 and the following year in England (1990) ....................the rest is history, we all know what happened next.
Just to jog your memory.........it was repealed after 2 years and replaced by Council Tax because it was a disaster.
Of course you can, that's what the crackdown is all about , any private owner on illegal owners direct can do 40 weeks rented no problem per year. My pre fine record was 93 weeks rented for our two.
The many many commissions and agents you say get a cut to get you your bookings , then you the overlord get your cut, it's totally against euro law, thus the owner gets what you decide and the customer ends up having to pay more .
Then at the same time the illegal canary law try's to stop the customer choosing an apartment that he/she prefers, restricting the market to large complex,s run like nearly hotels.
Try telling that to John the Solicitor even he seems to have disappeared
Try telling that to John the Solicitor even he seems to have disappeared
He has not disappeared, he did say when he last posted on here he would not be constantly on here arguing the point, clearly that's my job.
The next big post from lawyers will be the alotca / Escobedo. Gang, they are going to explain why the bd euro law does not help and how the mad canary 1995 law was amended to comply with euro law in 2006.
That will be interesting reading.
Of course you can, that's what the crackdown is all about , any private owner on illegal owners direct can do 40 weeks rented no problem per year. My pre fine record was 93 weeks rented for our two.
The many many commissions and agents you say get a cut to get you your bookings , then you the overlord get your cut, it's totally against euro law, thus the owner gets what you decide and the customer ends up having to pay more .
Then at the same time the illegal canary law try's to stop the customer choosing an apartment that he/she prefers, restricting the market to large complex,s run like nearly hotels.
That's only possible for hands on retired folks... What about property investors who don't want to get involved?
That's only possible for hands on retired folks... What about property investors who don't want to get involved?
They choose an agent, any agent not just a sole agent.
I am not retired, it's no hassle renting a apartment online , it's not just for retired folks
Fivepence
09-04-2013, 22:08
They choose an agent, any agent not just a sole agent.
I am not retired, it's no hassle renting a apartment online , it's not just for retired folks
I got tired then I got tired again.........so now I'm retired........................:laugh:
They choose an agent, any agent not just a sole agent.
I am not retired, it's no hassle renting a apartment online , it's not just for retired folks
It's a full time job pretending laws aren't happening isn't it?
He has not disappeared, he did say when he last posted on here he would not be constantly on here arguing the point, clearly that's my job.
Try telling that to John the Solicitor even he seems to have disappeared
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 07:46
By the time the penny finally drops and people finally realise this fiasco is for real it might be too late! As you mentioned in another thread the tumbleweed is the only thing missing at the moment! I mentioned the same phrase about 2 years ago and last time i was over i was stunned to see how many businesses were either struggling or had pulled the shutters down for good, The Patch which used to have a decent day trade was completely empty,the mini market built into PS2 was empty,opposite on CC Centro parade of shops there were more with the shutters down than up,it used to be vibrant there up until a few years ago! PS1 & PS2 which in my opinion are frontline real estate in an enviable location and very well kept pool & gardens are now like a ghost town! It also has a knock on effect on money exchanges,restaurantes,mutiply that 100 times in all the other area's and we can see where the problem lies!
ps...Did the nice Sole agent enhance your holiday experience? I bet you never seen them!
Well it had a shiny sign with 3 stars, a comments book in reception, a regulation size bed & mirror & a hair dryer so yes I suppose they did :c2:
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why not just change apartment, what was so bad about it, anything really different?
I will next time as I said in my post:wink2:
the question was, why not just change apartment,what was so bad about it, anything really different?
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 08:06
the question was, why not just change apartment,what was so bad about it, anything really different?
Short answers with no substance seems to be the way to reply on here:lol:ring any bells !!
I'll stay in Medano where most of the accommodation is illegal and never heard of inspectors maybe the difference is most of it is canarian owned
So there was no real difference then, just Jim overreacting on the subject.
Having seen a few apartments on official complexes On the whole most are furnished in a most basic way
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 08:30
So there was no real difference then, just Jim overreacting on the subject.
Overreacting never!! no one ever does that on this thread, not on you watch anyway:lol:
So illegal apartments are like home from home and legal ones are basic ?
Would hotel give you the luxury you were seeking?
I'll stay in Medano where most of the accommodation is illegal and never heard of inspectors maybe the difference is most of it is canarian owned
Well, here is a Ms M..... being fined 35.000 euros for two apartments in El Medano advertised in Holiday Rentals and OwnersDirect. I think in fact she has more apartments, but they did not quote a website of hers that I found online.
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/archivo/2013/045/pda/015.html
EDIT: and another fine in El Medano (18.000 reduced to 13.800) for someone with a Spanish name
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/194/pda/018.html
.... and another - a Hostel in El Medano ... could be an Italian name
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/2012/100/010.html
.... and again in El Medano ... a villa, I think, English owner ?
http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/boc/2012/221/015.html
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 08:54
So illegal apartments are like home from home and legal ones are basic ?
Would hotel give you the luxury you were seeking?
Don't like hotels and my house is a dump so don't want home from home:bootyshake:
So what are YOU the Tourist looking for ?
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 09:18
So what are YOU the Tourist looking for ?
Ask the customers that will never catch on in Tenerife. I was very happy with so called illegal apartments thankyou I could actually find my own way to the apartment and if I had any issues I picked up a phone and called to report them, maybe not for everyone but worked for me for many years. But your point is a good one perhaps the tourist police should start thinking about that and maybe ask the CUSTOMERS what they want
They have asked the tourist, information data acquired from Tourism initiative centers the World over, that's one of the reasons you'll be seeing more of this.
Surely everything you can do in one apartment you can do in the other regardless of it status.
Using illegal apartments are better for you, doesn't means a great deal if you don't have additional information as to why that is.
As you are a tourist when in Tenerife whether you pick the phone up to reception or the owner/s/mate doesn't change your holiday experience, if it does what are the differences as you've been here quite a few times?
The sole agent isn't just there to take you to your apartment.
Ask the customers that will never catch on in Tenerife. I was very happy with so called illegal apartments thankyou I could actually find my own way to the apartment and if I had any issues I picked up a phone and called to report them, maybe not for everyone but worked for me for many years. But your point is a good one perhaps the tourist police should start thinking about that and maybe ask the CUSTOMERS what they want
I think although there are a lot of people who'd be happy to follow that system the overwhelming majority want and need looking after a little more.
The sole agent isn't just there to take you to your apartment.
Thats right - We spend most of the day trying to figure out how to ruin the lives of owners and screwing money out of everyone left right and centre.
What does a Tourist want/need.
Lets start with confidence and assurance.
The confidence that having handed over a significant amount of Wonga, there will actually be an apartment waiting for them when they arrive. That there will be the facilities promised and that it will at least be safe. Electrical and (where appropriate gas) appliances will have been tested regularly and are fit for purpose.
By the same token, should someone do a runner with the deposit money (and please do not say this never happens), the complex agent will do their level best to find them alternative accomodation and make the necessary arrangements.
Confidence that should something go wrong during the stay the necessary insurances are in place through which the tourist has some recourse.
Confidence that there might be some form of security for their personal effects. Over many years of renting an apartment and posting keys across the world, there is no way of telling just how many sets of keys might exist. With the main set normally held by a central reception office, there is much less chance for incidents.
I'm sure there is more .........
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 09:50
They have asked the tourist, information data acquired from Tourism initiative centers the World over, that's one of the reasons you'll be seeing more of this.
Surely everything you can do in one apartment you can do in the other regardless of it status.
Using illegal apartments are better for you, doesn't means a great deal if you don't have additional information as to why that is.
As you are a tourist when in Tenerife whether you pick the phone up to reception or the owner/s/mate doesn't change your holiday experience, if it does what are the differences as you've been here quite a few times?
The sole agent isn't just there to take you to your apartment.
Mark quite simple for us what we normally want is
A very quiet complex preferabbly with no noisy kids running around ( we have done all that )
A large terrace that gets sun all day even in winter ( we don't go to the pool )
British TV
An apartment with all appliance etc that you don't have to pay extra for
All above sound very simple to get but is not that simple to find we had a good network of apartments which met these requirements, but if you book an apartment via say Travel Republic there is very little chance you will get what you want.There are cutomers out there who do not want the bog standard holiday complex "experience"and they should think about this before its too late
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What does a Tourist want/need.
Lets start with confidence and assurance.
The confidence that having handed over a significant amount of Wonga, there will actually be an apartment waiting for them when they arrive. That there will be the facilities promised and that it will at least be safe. Electrical and (where appropriate gas) appliances will have been tested regularly and are fit for purpose.
By the same token, should someone do a runner with the deposit money (and please do not say this never happens), the complex agent will do their level best to find them alternative accomodation and make the necessary arrangements.
Confidence that should something go wrong during the stay the necessary insurances are in place through which the tourist has some recourse.
Confidence that there might be some form of security for their personal effects. Over many years of renting an apartment and posting keys across the world, there is no way of telling just how many sets of keys might exist. With the main set normally held by a central reception office, there is much less chance for incidents.
I'm sure there is more .........
So this cannot be acheived without sole agents ? is there no plan B to consider ? One of you points is security Languna Park 2 comes to mind !!
Altamira
10-04-2013, 10:33
John Hatrick - Solicitor Article I have today noticed that the article has now been published within the April edition of the "Tenerife Property & Business Guide. I assume the article will help in the promotion of apartment sales to those who may be unaware of the existing issues.
.... and bring in a bit more business down the line?
golf birdie
10-04-2013, 10:44
So what are YOU the Tourist looking for ?
personally, what we want is to be able to chose the exact place we want to stay in, we don't want to turn up and be put where is best for the agent. Why should I save all year to be stuck in a place I don't want to be in? In fact we don't want anyone to hold our hands as we like to be totally independent ( we are adults:lol: ). This is why we love Florida, total freedom.
Angusjim
10-04-2013, 10:50
John Hatrick - Solicitor Article I have today noticed that the article has now been published within the April edition of the "Tenerife Property & Business Guide. I assume the article will help in the promotion of apartment sales to those who may be unaware of the existing issues.
It seems very strange that Canarian government seem very very keen on more regulation on holiday rentals but do nothing at all about regulating Estate Agents why is that ?
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I think although there are a lot of people who'd be happy to follow that system the overwhelming majority want and need looking after a little more.
I think that we need to know where you get the facts to back this up would you not agree 9 Plus:whistle:
The study that the Ten Diez Movement is doing is more inline with what Muppet has said, we have now conducted 361 questionnaires to tourists but I wouldn't like to generalize without doing the 1000.
golf birdie
10-04-2013, 11:39
The study that the Ten Diez Movement is doing is more inline with what Muppet has said, we have now conducted 361 questionnaires to tourists but I wouldn't like to generalize without doing the 1000.
and the questions are ???
The questions are focused on what the tourist thinks of their holiday experiences in Tenerife, service, accommodations, etc etc gives them a chance to include enough information. It will be presents as a graph once finished.
It seems very strange that Canarian government seem very very keen on more regulation on holiday rentals but do nothing at all about regulating Estate Agents why is that ?
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I think that we need to know where you get the facts to back this up would you not agree 9 Plus:whistle:
FActs based on personal experience of dealing with thousands of holiday makers very year for the last 17 years of my life.
golf birdie
10-04-2013, 12:10
FActs based on personal experience of dealing with thousands of holiday makers very year for the last 17 years of my life.
I would call that opinion:)
personally, what we want is to be able to chose the exact place we want to stay in, we don't want to turn up and be put where is best for the agent. Why should I save all year to be stuck in a place I don't want to be in? In fact we don't want anyone to hold our hands as we like to be totally independent ( we are adults:lol: ). This is why we love Florida, total freedom.
Yep ... nelson would approve :) http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110603/ARTICLE/110609878?p=1&tc=pg
Local governments banned from restricting short-term rentals in Florida
I would call that opinion:)
Maybe, but an informed opinion!
It seems very strange that Canarian government seem very very keen on more regulation on holiday rentals but do nothing at all about regulating Estate Agents why is that ?
Following on this, I really feel I must quote a query that has been posted today on Janet Ans-combe's blog. I think in her answer, she is perhaps being too kind to the agents involved.
Query: I admit that I am totally confused now – we are buying an apartment on a residential complex & are considering doing holiday rentals.
Now, everything that I read on here implies that this is totally impossible, against the law etc. etc.
However, speaking to two local estate agents, they both assure us that they can legally carry out these rentals for us (they both claim to have tourist licences). Indeed, one of them is currently renting out two apartments in the block where we are buying & says that there would be no problems in adding our apartment to their portfolio.
So, are they telling us porkies; are they operating outside of the law; is some sort of exclusion in place; what is the exact situation?
Any clear, unequivocal advice would be much appreciated at this point!!
Janet gives a very clear response
Under the law as it exists now, and the new law going through parliament, residential property may never be let commercially for holidays by anyone under any circumstances. No exclusion. The exact situation is as I’ve described it here since I started posting on it in December 2010. I can’t be any more clear or unequivocal as I have been throughout, and there are links to the laws themselves on my links page.
Agents can have licences to let out properties, indeed to operate as a “tourism agent” one must have a licence … but that’s a licence to be an agent! Long-term residential lets are allowed in all properties, and such agents can arrange them (as well as arranging holiday lets as an intermediary between tourist and sole agents on tourist complexes), but all agents must operate their businesses legally … and legally, there can be no holiday lets at all, under any circumstances, in any residential property.
This is not to cast aspersions on the agents you mention. I myself have known agents who genuinely believe they have a licence to do whatever they like. On examination, however, they themselves had been misled by people who charged a fair bit of money to get them this “licence to legalize everything”. It was no such thing. It was a licence to be an agent, without which they couldn’t operate legally in the first place.
Following on this, I really feel I must quote a query that has been posted today on Janet Ans-combe's blog. I think in her answer, she is perhaps being too kind to the agents involved.
Query: I admit that I am totally confused now – we are buying an apartment on a residential complex & are considering doing holiday rentals.
Now, everything that I read on here implies that this is totally impossible, against the law etc. etc.
However, speaking to two local estate agents, they both assure us that they can legally carry out these rentals for us (they both claim to have tourist licences). Indeed, one of them is currently renting out two apartments in the block where we are buying & says that there would be no problems in adding our apartment to their portfolio.
So, are they telling us porkies; are they operating outside of the law; is some sort of exclusion in place; what is the exact situation?
Any clear, unequivocal advice would be much appreciated at this point!!
Janet gives a very clear response
Under the law as it exists now, and the new law going through parliament, residential property may never be let commercially for holidays by anyone under any circumstances. No exclusion. The exact situation is as I’ve described it here since I started posting on it in December 2010. I can’t be any more clear or unequivocal as I have been throughout, and there are links to the laws themselves on my links page.
Agents can have licences to let out properties, indeed to operate as a “tourism agent” one must have a licence … but that’s a licence to be an agent! Long-term residential lets are allowed in all properties, and such agents can arrange them (as well as arranging holiday lets as an intermediary between tourist and sole agents on tourist complexes), but all agents must operate their businesses legally … and legally, there can be no holiday lets at all, under any circumstances, in any residential property.
This is not to cast aspersions on the agents you mention. I myself have known agents who genuinely believe they have a licence to do whatever they like. On examination, however, they themselves had been misled by people who charged a fair bit of money to get them this “licence to legalize everything”. It was no such thing. It was a licence to be an agent, without which they couldn’t operate legally in the first place.
All agents know FULL WELL that it is illegal to let to short term tourists on a residentia. What they, no doubt, allude to is that letting goes on on that particular site - but illegally. And long term rentals - how many definitions have you seen for what consitutes 'long term?. LOL, the mind boggles.
All agents know FULL WELL that it is illegal to let to short term tourists on a residentia. What they, no doubt, allude to is that letting goes on on that particular site - but illegally.
Here comes another generation of misled , unaware owners....
Better get that newspaper cover plastic protected.
Here comes another generation of misled , unaware owners....
Or more likely another potential buyer who,ll say"sod this" and either buy somewher else or keep hold of their money. As predicted when this first started,this will have a devestating effect on the property market.Even more so now the word is out.Confusion reigns,and that's not a good word to use in already voiatile market
Or more likely another potential buyer who,ll say"sod this" and either buy somewher else or keep hold of their money. As predicted when this first started,this will have a devestating effect on the property market.Even more so now the word is out.Confusion reigns,and that's not a good word to use in already voiatile market
It's only confused because unscrupulous agents are talking cra.p And articles with no substance are being written .....
I'm perfectly clear on the law.
It's only confused because unscrupulous agents are talking cra.p And articles with no substance are being written .....
I'm perfectly clear on the law.
Of course you are.............not !
You need to read today's article by John Hatrick in the tenerife news.
Then I suggest you actually read the EU law to see how far away you are from the reality of what is actually EUROPEAN LAW, ie the rules that member states have to follow.
Simple.
Of course you are.............not !
You need to read today's article by John Hatrick in the tenerife news.
Then I suggest you actually read the EU law to see how far away you are from the reality of what is actually EUROPEAN LAW, ie the rules that member states have to follow.
Simple.
Is this a new article or the old-hat article from a few weeks back - date of publication? Just askin'
You need to read today's article by John Hatrick in the tenerife news.
Then I suggest you actually read the EU law to see how far away you are from the reality of what is actually EUROPEAN LAW, ie the rules that member states have to follow.
I haven't actually seen today's article mentioned above, so cannot comment on it.
One of the things required by the Services Directive, you will recall, is a sort of one stop portal with all the necessary information for setting up a business in the country ... here is part of the UK's portal set up to comply with the Directive
https://www.gov.uk/licence-finder/sectors?sectors=54
You will see it is a "licence finder" and very neatly helps you identify if you need a particular licence for your chosen service (obviously for a bar or catering there will some form of licence required)
Put in self catering accommodation and areas on mainland UK requires no licence, but in Northern Ireland you have to register and obtain a licence/certification (similar to the South).
Likewise in Westminster, a London Borough, there are quite strict controls about short term rentals and you have to apply for planning permission to be legal as you will see here http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Short_Term_Letting_Guide_2008.pdf
What I am trying to point out here is that it is not that easy just to say the 2006 Services Directive gives you complete freedom to rent your property ... many areas require licences or planning permission.
exactly, so where is the canarian version of the licence requirement to be found ?
exactly, so where is the canarian version of the licence requirement to be found ?
In the 1995 Act as amended in 2009 to comply with the Directive
EDIT - the licence holder per se is the Sole Agent, and he must (with your consent) register your apartment with the Tourist Board
exactly, so where is the canarian version of the licence requirement to be found ?
Its there Tonym, loaded linked it a couple of weeks back.
I know some people think this Directive is all powerful, but it does states that certain areas are exempt ... planning, use of land, primary health care, some areas of education, taxation, matters where the environment takes precedence etc.
One lawyer might argue for freedom of the individual, another can easily point to planning in the Canaries (Residential v Touristic is after all a planning matter)
I know some people think this Directive is all powerful, but it does states that certain areas are exempt ... planning, use of land, primary health care, some areas of education, taxation, matters where the environment takes precedence etc.
One lawyer might argue for freedom of the individual, another can easily point to planning in the Canaries (Residential v Touristic is after all a planning matter)
No. The law is very specific about exclusions. There is a list but tourism is not on it. In fact it does also say that tourism is covered by the law.
So the link that was highlighted you mentioned, was this the link to the actual amendment to the 1995 law that was made in 2009 ?
No. The law is very specific about exclusions. There is a list but tourism is not on it. In fact it does also say that tourism is covered by the law.
So the link that was highlighted you mentioned, was this the link to the actual amendment to the 1995 law that was made in 2009 ?
Yes, tourism is covered but I was thinking of this:
(9) This Directive applies only to requirements which affect the access to, or the exercise of, a service activity. Therefore, it does not apply to requirements, such as road traffic rules, rules concerning the development or use of land, town and country planning, building standards as well as administrative penalties imposed for non-compliance with such rules which do not specifically regulate or specifically affect the service activity but have to be respected by providers in the course of carrying out their economic activity in the same way as by individuals acting in their private capacity.
Yes, the link to the 2009 Act , a few posts ago, is the one that amended the 1995 Act
EDIT - here it is again
http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/CCAA/ic-l14-2009.html
Ok, so we agree, your thoughts on the exclusions do not cover tourism, therefore the letting of apartments is definitely covered by Biolkestein.
On the subject of your link, this is law that is made in Spain or the canaries in response to the implementation date of the BD law, ie. 2009.
So, where is the part of the authorities website which follows the law ?
The bit that:-
( from memory)
If a licence or authorisation is required for an activity, the requirements should be listed.
The timescale for the application should be stated
Any costs involved will be listed, costs will be proportional to the administration involved.
The applicant will be able to apply remotely electronically
If there is no reply within the stated timescale, the applicant can take it that authorisation is granted.
Authorisation cannot be refused without reason which must be stated.
The procedure will be written in simple terms, (not legal jargon)
The list goes on...........but these will do for now, does the canarian law follow the above ?
And the best one of all, member states will not try to circumvent this law.
Of course you are.............not !
You need to read today's article by John Hatrick in the tenerife news.
Then I suggest you actually read the EU law to see how far away you are from the reality of what is actually EUROPEAN LAW, ie the rules that member states have to follow.
Simple.
I'll let you catch up with the flaws in that article by re reading the last few pages of this thread......
Also search my posts for a link to the Canarian portal - I'm not doing your research for you.
And the million dollar question is....... Even if the portal exists, and follows bolkestein to the letter, did it exist in December 2009 when implementation should have taken place, otherwise 7000 fines have been issued illegally .
I cannot believe I am spending my evening going through all this :doh:
Article 4
Definitions
For the purposes of this Directive, the following definitions shall apply:
1) "service" means any self-employed economic activity, normally provided for remuneration, as referred to in Article 50 of the Treaty;
Article 50
Services shall be considered to be "services" within the meaning of this Treaty where they are normally provided for remuneration, in so far as they are not governed by the provisions relating to freedom of movement for goods, capital and persons.
"Services" shall in particular include:
(a)
activities of an industrial character;
(b)
activities of a commercial character;
(c)
activities of craftsmen;
(d)
activities of the professions.
Without prejudice to the provisions of the chapter relating to the right of establishment, the person providing a service may, in order to do so, temporarily pursue his activity in the State where the service is provided, under the same conditions as are imposed by that State on its own nationals.
Tourism - I can find references to tourist guides, travel agents but not to providers of accommodation ... you would expect there to be something about hotels, hostels etc ??
(33) The services covered by this Directive concern a wide variety of ever-changing activities, including business services such as management consultancy, certification and testing; facilities management, including office maintenance; advertising; recruitment services; and the services of commercial agents. The services covered are also services provided both to businesses and to consumers, such as legal or fiscal advice; real estate services such as estate agencies; construction, including the services of architects; distributive trades; the organisation of trade fairs; car rental; and travel agencies. Consumer services are also covered, such as those in the field of tourism, including tour guides; leisure services, sports centres and amusement parks; and, to the extent that they are not excluded from the scope of application of the Directive, household support services, such as help for the elderly. Those activities may involve services requiring the proximity of provider and recipient, services requiring travel by the recipient or the provider and services which may be provided at a distance, including via the Internet.
Of course you can, that's what the crackdown is all about , any private owner on illegal owners direct can do 40 weeks rented no problem per year. My pre fine record was 93 weeks rented for our two.
The many many commissions and agents you say get a cut to get you your bookings , then you the overlord get your cut, it's totally against euro law, thus the owner gets what you decide and the customer ends up having to pay more .
Then at the same time the illegal canary law try's to stop the customer choosing an apartment that he/she prefers, restricting the market to large complex,s run like nearly hotels.
93 weeks!! Makes your fine look like peanuts!!
And the million dollar question is....... Even if the portal exists, and follows bolkestein to the letter, did it exist in December 2009 when implementation should have taken place, otherwise 7000 fines have been issued illegally .
I don't follow your logic here ... the current fines were issued post 2009 (the basis of the cases we have been discussing were fines issued pre the 2009 act one of the reasons they were thrown out by the TSJ Canarias) How could the fact a portal might not have existed end 2009 invalidate fines issued due to inspections carried out in 2011 ??
welshman
10-04-2013, 23:20
I wish the canarian government would put their skates on
1. By either taking an illegal leter to court
2. Or post the new law,s
The suspence is killing me, I log on every few days to see if there is any update its becoming like a drug
got to have a fix. Who,s going to win Nelson or loaded. I noticed over the last few week the big guns are
coming out.
But only had one lawyer who has the balls to put his opinion on the forum rightly or wrong into print.!!
I thought the other Spanish lawyer were going to make a statement or have they had second thoughts but
there againt there are plenty of forum lawyers spouting directives and the rest. :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Wait a minute here, if we were talking about fines that were issued before 2009, then how could bolkestein have been the reason they were thrown out since the final implementation date for the bd was dec 2009 ? For me, the pure fact that the TSJ recognises the bolkestein law means it IS the law.
It's seems logical to me that if the Canarians failed to implement the law on the due date, ie that their portal was not in existence , then how could an applicant be expected to follow the law and apply for authorisation if the proper means were not available ?
But only had one lawyer who has the balls to put his opinion on the forum rightly or wrong into print.!!
From One English Solicitor and that came with a disclaimer.
So it means nothing.
I wish the canarian government would put their skates on
1. By either taking an illegal leter to court
2. Or post the new law,s
The suspence is killing me, I log on every few days to see if there is any update its becoming like a drug
got to have a fix. Who,s going to win Nelson or loaded. I noticed over the last few week the big guns are
coming out.
But only had one lawyer who has the balls to put his opinion on the forum rightly or wrong into print.!!
I thought the other Spanish lawyer were going to make a statement or have they had second thoughts but
there againt there are plenty of forum lawyers spouting directives and the rest. :lol::lol::lol::lol:
Exactly. We've had a few titbits through the j a blog, which I have to say have some glaring errors, (bd applies only to agents not individuals, ultra peripheral region,etc) but as a budding lawyer in training, I'm happy to accept any gratuities that come my way as a result of using the defences I'm posting here.
My invoice will be in the post.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
From One English Solicitor and that came with a disclaimer.
So it means nothing.
Bit like a tradesmans quote ?
Wait a minute here, if we were talking about fines that were issued before 2009, then how could bolkestein have been the reason they were thrown out since the final implementation date for the bd was dec 2009 ? For me, the pure fact that the TSJ recognises the bolkestein law means it IS the law.
I only looked at the cases relating to properties, not the one relating to the tourist guides (who you can see are definetly covered by the Directive)
The Directive was published end 2006 and Member states were given 3 years to implement it .... the cases rejected by the TSJ related to entities (not individuals) fined pre 2009 for not having "prior authorisation" ... since this was no longer an offence under the 2009 law, the Courts had to decide should the 2009 law be retrospective (and they went into a discussion about the most most beneficial law applying and so on) ... so they decided that yes, as it was not an offence in 2009 (due to Bolkestein being implemented) the fines for infringements prior to 2009 would be struck out.
Do you see the difference ? Had the cases related to fines imposed in say, 2010, and as such were struck out for some reason to do with the Directive, then yes, it would have some bearing today.
And with this, I'm signing off for the night :)
"Since having prior authorisation was no longer a requirement under the 2009 law "is the confusing part. The EU law I read about was mainly about obtaining authorisation, ie the BD law. I think you're saying their amendment says authorisation was not required. If that's the case why bring the case anyway ?
Are you saying the 2009 law was the one to amend the 1995 letting law ?
Are you saying the 2009 law was the one to amend the 1995 letting law ?
For the third time, YES ... can it be any clearer
Ley 14/2009, de 30 de diciembre, por la que se modifica la Ley 7/1995, de 6 de abril, de Ordenación del Turismo de Canarias.
You must read both that act along with the Services Directive. The very first Article after the preamble is relevant.
http://noticias.juridicas.com/base_datos/CCAA/ic-l14-2009.html
I think you're saying their amendment says authorisation was not required. If that's the case why bring the case anyway ?
Prior authorisation. The cases started before 2009 and the judgement by the TSJ Canarias in (late 2012?) was the result of an appeal.
If these matters affect you personally, tonym, then you really must go to a local lawyer and ask him to explain the 2009 Act to you - I don't think we are now achieving anything by arguing on here :)
And the truth shall set you free!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htobTBlCvUU
I've read the article in the paper and this time he didn't really say anything other than in his opinion anyone can rent to tourists on a touristic complex (**) without a sole agent
Then yet again came the disclaimer(**), all written without justification just a contact number business drum.
(**) You either can rent freely and you can not.
tony m is trying to explain the situation, you detractors just dont want to hear. As he is telling you, and I did earlier, you cant have a law that only applies to a business not to individuals. The fact that companies won their recent appeals is irelevant, an individual trader is subject to the self same law.
What you keep ignoring is basically how protectionist and anti consumer choice the mad sole agent system is. As if such a crazy restrictive system could ever be tolerated in our modern liberal western democratic world. I have been telling you from the beginning that eu free competition law could not tolerate such blatent nonsense. The idea that the canary govt actually ammended their insane law to comply with bd is utterley absurd, and its hilarious to read them doing the so called ammendment but still talking about sole agents etc.
We are well on the way to this mess getting sorted out in and holiday home renting in the canaries being done by individuals quite normally and without any controversy, like the rest of this planet.
We are well on the way to this mess getting sorted out in and holiday home renting in the canaries being done by individuals quite normally and without any controversy, like the rest of this planet.
http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Short_Term_Letting_Guide_2008.pdf
http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Short_Term_Letting_Guide_2008.pdf
But all you have to do in Westminster is apply for planning permission to short let your property, it says that on your link. It was funny on the ja site just a few days ago , Doreen was on about canary sole agency not being alone in having restrictions, she mentioned Westminster as you are doing. Then a poster came on who had a Westminster property and had obtained planning permission for tourist use, said it was quite straightforward. Also the poster had a go at ja for the very odd change of tone of the website recently, very defensive nowadays to the mad canary laws.
So in Westminster the individual first gets planning permission then gets on with tourist renting. No need to work with a monopoly sole agent overlord who must control the entire building.
welshman
11-04-2013, 21:47
http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Short_Term_Letting_Guide_2008.pdf
Its does not saying you cannot rent it is saying you need planning permission get planning/liecence
and rent
Same as Tenby West Wales get house /apartment checked and liecence from Tourist Board and pay your taxes have inspection every year. Have elecricity and gas checked annualy have emergancy contact No,s and complaints book.
Common sence letting
tony m is trying to explain the situation, you detractors just dont want to hear. As he is telling you, and I did earlier, you cant have a law that only applies to a business not to individuals. The fact that companies won their recent appeals is irelevant, an individual trader is subject to the self same law.
What you keep ignoring is basically how protectionist and anti consumer choice the mad sole agent system is. As if such a crazy restrictive system could ever be tolerated in our modern liberal western democratic world. I have been telling you from the beginning that eu free competition law could not tolerate such blatent nonsense. The idea that the canary govt actually ammended their insane law to comply with bd is utterley absurd, and its hilarious to read them doing the so called ammendment but still talking about sole agents etc.
We are well on the way to this mess getting sorted out in and holiday home renting in the canaries being done by individuals quite normally and without any controversy, like the rest of this planet.
Sadly, another delay
Just posted by Janet on her blog
Update 11 April: The new law is still mired in Parliament. Today we’ve learned that the Canarian Socialist and nationalist groups will be presenting separate amendments to the Bill. The main reason for posting something of such little immediate import is to show the two main issues that are causing problems right now … and neither is concerned with the matters that would concern most readers here, I imagine. The first is the nature of the role of Cabildos and Ayuntamientos in modernisation plans, and the other is that of the categories permitted in newly created tourist establishments. There is also dispute over whether to include 4* establishments in the moratorium. There is still no sign of when this will be translated into law.
It will be a longer battle but this is the legal route the letting residentials in the resorts need to start going down. The el mirador s and others, apply for touristic planning use , demand your rights just like Westminster , you are fully entitled to equal treatment under European law.
We will fight them in the beaches , we will fight them in the skies, we will......zzzzzz
Its does not saying you cannot rent it is saying you need planning permission get planning/liecence
and rent
Same as Tenby West Wales get house /apartment checked and liecence from Tourist Board and pay your taxes have inspection every year. Have elecricity and gas checked annualy have emergancy contact No,s and complaints book.
Common sence letting
Sadly, another delay
Just posted by Janet on her blog
Update 11 April: The new law is still mired in Parliament. Today we’ve learned that the Canarian Socialist and nationalist groups will be presenting separate amendments to the Bill. The main reason for posting something of such little immediate import is to show the two main issues that are causing problems right now … and neither is concerned with the matters that would concern most readers here, I imagine. The first is the nature of the role of Cabildos and Ayuntamientos in modernisation plans, and the other is that of the categories permitted in newly created tourist establishments. There is also dispute over whether to include 4* establishments in the moratorium. There is still no sign of when this will be translated into law.
And in the Canaries all you have to do is have a sole agent on a tourist complex.
Just how it should be
So, still we wait the outcome of the fines situation and the"new" law re tourist rentals.
First, the 1995 letting law brought in the sole agent and the outlawing of owners renting direct.
2006, the EU bolkestein directive brought into law, to be implemented at the latest dec2009.
Many changes would be required. All to do with competition and the end of restrictive practices, to free up and enable business to flourish. The government authorities themselves had a lot to do to simplify their licence procedures to make things easier to start a business with less beaurocracy.
Did anyone here in Tenerife notice anything change in relation to letting and business ?.............. NO
Dec 2009. Canaries make amendments to their 1995 law.
Did anyone notice any changes to letting procedures or business start ups becoming simpler ?...........NO
That's because the EU 2006 law was not implemented.
Now we hear that there are "one stop shops" opening up to help start a business. The cabildo now on its website has published procedures on the requirements to gain authority for a business.
That's not the government getting sensible to combat the economic downturn, that's the result of getting a kick up the a@@e to get into line with EU law.
Now the point is, had this information been available at the proper time, ie dec 2009, there may have been many apartment owners who would not be in situation that resulted in a massive fine, ie the fines are a direct result of the governments tardiness.
On the new law, no matter what changes are brought in, they have to comply and be compatible with EU law, "it should not be possible for member states to circumvent rules laid down in this directive", can't be any clearer than that.
Lets hope that the fine situation goes away because the government knows now it can't win. Also lets hope they come up with a sensible solution to the many crazy situations they created or allowed to happen.
But don't hold your breath.
Excellent post Tony its a complete shambles and is an embarassment to the Island and its having a bad effect on businesses with lots of people in limbo!
junglejim
12-04-2013, 04:42
And in the Canaries all you have to do is have a sole agent on a tourist complex.
Just how it should be
Yes, and in most cases , lose control of :- your property , who uses it , when you can use it , some of your income ,make good relationship with clients , have security over your rental income .
Too one sided in my opinion !
Yes, and in most cases , lose control of :- your property , who uses it , when you can use it , some of your income ,make good relationship with clients , have security over your rental income .
Too one sided in my opinion !
However non of what you have mentioned helps the tourist and its all about the tourist, what you seem to fail to see.
An end to this cowboy black market unregistered tourism industry and think of them.
93 weeks a year rentals over how many years? Pay your fine Señor Verde and think yourself lucky.The Spanish tax man will be after you next ,rubbing his hands in glee at the thought of all that back tax jejejejejejeje!!
Or more likely another potential buyer who,ll say"sod this" and either buy somewher else or keep hold of their money. As predicted when this first started,this will have a devestating effect on the property market.Even more so now the word is out.Confusion reigns,and that's not a good word to use in already voiatile market
I agree with the sentiment. Owners on a residentia have their potential buyers reduced because, I would say, most buyers want to let if they are absentee owners. We were lucky when we sold on a residentia that the buyer had told the agent they didn't want to rent.
However, buyers on our old site, I would say, were mostly put off by owners asking a ridiculous price, not being prepared to reduce (or as we say, LOL, 'negotiate'). We (eventually) priced realistically and sold in weeks through a good agent.
So, there are buyers who declare they don't want to rent and buy on a residentia, but I wonder what the outcome is if they realise that (illegal) letting goes on - they they too join the throng? That's another question!
93 weeks a year rentals over how many years? Pay your fine Señor Verde and think yourself lucky.The Spanish tax man will be after you next ,rubbing his hands in glee at the thought of all that back tax jejejejejejeje!!
That was one year for two apartments
On the new law, no matter what changes are brought in, they have to comply and be compatible with EU law, "it should not be possible for member states to circumvent rules laid down in this directive", can't be any clearer than that.
In fairness, I would say we were aware of the new law in 2009, as our site administrators had informed the committee members and this got passed along to us. This may be where some of the problem lay - other than a Canarian Government which always seemed to want to work in secret.
So, still we wait the outcome of the fines situation and the"new" law re tourist rentals.
First, the 1995 letting law brought in the sole agent and the outlawing of owners renting direct.
2006, the EU bolkestein directive brought into law, to be implemented at the latest dec2009.
Many changes would be required. All to do with competition and the end of restrictive practices, to free up and enable business to flourish. The government authorities themselves had a lot to do to simplify their licence procedures to make things easier to start a business with less beaurocracy.
Did anyone here in Tenerife notice anything change in relation to letting and business ?.............. NO
Dec 2009. Canaries make amendments to their 1995 law.
Did anyone notice any changes to letting procedures or business start ups becoming simpler ?...........NO
That's because the EU 2006 law was not implemented.
Now we hear that there are "one stop shops" opening up to help start a business. The cabildo now on its website has published procedures on the requirements to gain authority for a business.
That's not the government getting sensible to combat the economic downturn, that's the result of getting a kick up the a@@e to get into line with EU law.
Now the point is, had this information been available at the proper time, ie dec 2009, there may have been many apartment owners who would not be in situation that resulted in a massive fine, ie the fines are a direct result of the governments tardiness.
On the new law, no matter what changes are brought in, they have to comply and be compatible with EU law, "it should not be possible for member states to circumvent rules laid down in this directive", can't be any clearer than that.
Lets hope that the fine situation goes away because the government knows now it can't win. Also lets hope they come up with a sensible solution to the many crazy situations they created or allowed to happen.
But don't hold your breath.
Unless, of course, the particular EU state has been recognised as being one of "Special Needs" due to its relative position to the EU as a whole.
Specifically, Reunion Island, the North African Enclaves and the Canaries, where special arrangements exist to allow for local Value Added Tax regimes, subsidised communication routes, and specific laws relating to principal industries and or business of the area(s,) where they are considered to be vitally important, to be different to those in the rest of the EU as a whole.
It is perhaps, worth a reflection that, if such exemptions were not in place, and the all for one, one for all overarching policy of the EU were implimented as supporters of the BD seem to support, the Canaries, as an example, would currently have VAT at rates of over 20% and not 7% as at present, and significantly different tax rules than they currently enjoy.
The tax status of these islands is what brought many people here in the first instance, and allowed them to invest in second homes which they then went on to let against the local laws.
Logic suggests be careful what you wish for!
No one would deny their special status, but you really need to read up on what the BD will and won't do. The Status does NOT affect the EU law in relation to competition which is in place to INCREASE business.
There is another point which does not seem to be in discussion. The outline plan which 9 plus brought to light in regards to areas having to have part hotels, part touristic, part residential, locals etc is also doomed. (IMO)
It's demise started when the first apartment in the touristic area was sold freehold. The authorities thought they could keep control, however who would have thought the EU would step in and give back the power to the owners ? The touristic areas are now no longer purely touristic. The situation where hotels sell off rooms to be used by owners as they wish is a complete farce, I would think the authorities haven't a clue of what they have now in relation to touristic / residential/ hotels.
The authorities have a lot to do to bring it all into the fold and comply with the law. Unless of course they go for the simple option of a licence situation for all.
93 weeks a year rentals over how many years? Pay your fine Señor Verde and think yourself lucky.The Spanish tax man will be after you next ,rubbing his hands in glee at the thought of all that back tax jejejejejejeje!!
And what is the Spanish equivalent for Andy or Andrew?
Rebelión
12-04-2013, 10:02
As a new TF member....some friends have said that the San Eugenio area has been a bit quiet on the occasions they have visited recently. Has the letting law affected business in the area ? If so it can't be great for the local community !
No one would deny their special status, but you really need to read up on what the BD will and won't do. The Status does NOT affect the EU law in relation to competition which is in place to INCREASE business.
There is another point which does not seem to be in discussion. The outline plan which 9 plus brought to light in regards to areas having to have part hotels, part touristic, part residential, locals etc is also doomed. (IMO)
It's demise started when the first apartment in the touristic area was sold freehold. The authorities thought they could keep control, however who would have thought the EU would step in and give back the power to the owners ? The touristic areas are now no longer purely touristic. The situation where hotels sell off rooms to be used by owners as they wish is a complete farce, I would think the authorities haven't a clue of what they have now in relation to touristic / residential/ hotels.
The authorities have a lot to do to bring it all into the fold and comply with the law. Unless of course they go for the simple option of a licence situation for all.
The real issue is how, eventually, the courts view the many laws that are in play here. On the one hand a directive is issued which affords special status to certain regions, and on the other a directive is issued which rules all areas and all activities should be common to all EU states and regions.
Bottom line here being there is absolutely no guaranteed outcome - not least until the entire matter hits the courts in Europe and there is precious little chance of that happening any time soon.
The implications are very far and wide reaching though, more so than any of us could even predict. If, for example, it were ruled that the BD over-rules local laws created under the peripheral rules which don't only affect the Canaries but a number of other areas then stand-by for nothing but years of EU in-fighting.
junglejim
12-04-2013, 10:54
However non of what you have mentioned helps the tourist and its all about the tourist, what you seem to fail to see.
An end to this cowboy black market unregistered tourism industry and think of them.
Very altruistic 9+ , but let's get back into the real world !
Most investors here bought property to enjoy, rent for income and have some control over their investment - not to be dictated to, harangued and criminalised by an system not fit for purpose nor by officials not capable of doing their duties .
Without investors there would be no tourists !
There is another point which does not seem to be in discussion. The outline plan which 9 plus brought to light in regards to areas having to have part hotels, part touristic, part residential, locals etc is also doomed. (IMO)
It's demise started when the first apartment in the touristic area was sold freehold. The authorities thought they could keep control, however who would have thought the EU would step in and give back the power to the owners ? The touristic areas are now no longer purely touristic. The situation where hotels sell off rooms to be used by owners as they wish is a complete farce, I would think the authorities haven't a clue of what they have now in relation to touristic / residential/ hotels.
Los Cristianos, Las Américas nor anywhere else on the islands weren't designed purely touristic, i don't know of anywhere in Spain that has been so, do you? It's not the Spanish urbanization model.
Very altruistic 9+ , but let's get back into the real world !
Most investors here bought property to enjoy, rent for income and have some control over their investment - not to be dictated to, harangued and criminalised by an system not fit for purpose nor by officials not capable of doing their duties .
Without investors there would be no tourists !
The real world is that in the Canaries, you know the rest...
They have all the control they want providing they rent via a sole agent or long term.
junglejim
12-04-2013, 11:44
Los Cristianos, Las Américas nor anywhere else on the islands weren't designed purely touristic, i don't know of anywhere in Spain that has been so, do you? It's not the Spanish urbanization model.
The real world is that in the Canaries, you know the rest...
They have all the control they want providing they rent via a sole agent or long term.
Or not ! This to me is the best way for them to find out if they have any influence at all in the Tourism Industry - if they withdraw their apartments from market and it has no effect then they should just shut up and sign up - or sell up !
Angusjim
12-04-2013, 12:49
9Plus dinnae you be falling out we any more Celtic fans they are very touchy bunch:lol::whistle:
junglejim
12-04-2013, 13:55
9Plus dinnae you be falling out we any more Celtic fans they are very touchy bunch:lol::whistle:
Resilient AJ -Resilient !
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit !
All very quiet on here at the moment, thought I'd post all the things I can think of that need fixing by the new letting law.
Perhaps avoiding the most obvious sole agent thing that we've done to the death now.
Ex touristic sites needing to be legalised
Complexes with mixed use, ie time share with residential/touristic.( how come timeshare can advertise cheap or free holidays ?)
Residential complexes wanting to rent , (if ps1 & ps2, why not dinistia, or el mirador ?)
Hotels that have rooms "converted" to apartments, without adequate facilities (ie not enough electric to power more than one appliance at a time).
Villas to be legalised.
I'm sure there must be more, does your complex have a problem that needs a fix ?
The new draft law is giving complexes that are "ex tourist" the chance to sort themselves out and get up to standard over the next 2 years.
Timeshare can advertise free or cheap holidays because that's not how they make their money - they draw you in on 90 pound holidays and then push you into buying thin air (timeshare).
That's how they can afford to do it so cheap
Residential apartments; there is a big difference between el mirador and ps 1.... Ps1 was built and registered as touristic back in the day but they have not maintained the license and there is no license holder. They are "ex tourist" or "dormant touristic" and the draft law gives them 2 years to sort themselves out or face closure .
Villas will be able to register if the moratorium is lifted as long as the villa is built on tourist or mixed use land.
Hotels and apart hotels and apartments used to be the possible accommodation types but since the 2009 laws aparthotels have had to choose to be either apartments or hotels.
Altamira
13-04-2013, 13:51
Residential apartments; there is a big difference between el mirador and ps 1.... Ps1 was built and registered as touristic back in the day but they have not maintained the license and there is no license holder. They are "ex tourist" or "dormant touristic" and the draft law gives them 2 years to sort themselves out or face closure .
Closure of Dormant Tourist Apartments What does closure actually mean, are you suggesting that the whole complex would be locked closed and that no one would be allowed to use the apartments, either for tourist or residential use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Closure of Dormant Tourist Apartments What does closure actually mean, are you suggesting that the whole complex would be locked closed and that no one would be allowed to use the apartments, either for tourist or residential use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure if Loaded is around to clarify ... no, not locked out, just that the license would be extinguished
Altamira
13-04-2013, 15:19
Not sure if Loaded is around to clarify ... no, not locked out, just that the license would be extinguished
Closure = Tourist Extinguished Hello Doreen, if the tourist license becomes extinguished does the complex then become classed as residential?
think loaded is in a , I want to post as if there is no challenge to the whole daft canary letting law pantomime mood. He is talking about the mad new draft law, that proposes to allow the dormant touristics to have 2 years to get up and running again like mini hotels with the wonderful and essential sole agent overlord running all the renting. Plus that new daft draft law will at the same time ban the residential people from the now active touristics under threat of a 30,000 euro fine should they defiantly remain resident in their apartments rather than obey the law and hand over the apartment to the sole agent overlord to do the renting in it.
Thankfully due to the bd euro law the whole current 1995 letting law as not properly ammended in 2009, is clearly totally illegal under euro law. The mad new draft law is straight out of the same insane , illogical mindset, as if individual holiday homes dont exist and as if people renting them out themselves might cause some sort of controversy.
Thats the reality today, no one need worry about what the canarian parliament dream up in terms of centrally planned illogical restrictive tourism laws, just as long as the canarian judges in the canarian high court continue to uphold the euro law.
Loaded would like to pretend nothing is /has changed , so he might post in a tone that implies that all is is well in the mad law world and that the daft draft law may still be a reality.
He is a bit like old Adolf holed up in the bunker in Berlin in april 1945. Still sending out orders to armies that no longer existed, trying to carry on as if the end was not certain and fast approaching.
The way things are going the new draft law will not even reach the law books.
Closure = Tourist Extinguished Hello Doreen, if the tourist license becomes extinguished does the complex then become classed as residential?
I can't actually answer that, I'm afraid. the matter of "closure" is mentioned in transition provisions in the draft law ...
Sexta.- Edificaciones existentes.
En el plazo máximo de dos años a partir de la entrada en vigor de la presente ley, aquellas edificaciones existentes en suelos turísticos que dispusieran de licencia municipal de obras no anulada, anterior a la entrada en vigor de la Ley 19/2003, de 14 de abril, por la que se aprueban las Directrices de Ordenación General y las Directrices de Ordenación del Turismo de Canarias y que cumplan con todos los requisitos de ordenación necesarios para poder ser considerados establecimientos turísticos de alojamiento, podrán ser autorizados como tales, previa solicitud y acreditación de tales hechos. En los supuestos de renovación edificatoria de las citadas edificaciones, no habrá derecho a la obtención de plazas adicionales.
Transcurrido este plazo, se decretará la clausura y cierre del establecimiento.
Perhaps, if it is an aparthotel without any private owners, then it can actually be closed - I would guess apartments could be sold off to individuals after that as residential properties
Jollypolly
13-04-2013, 16:10
Villas will be able to register if the moratorium is lifted as long as the villa is built on tourist or mixed use land.
Hello Loaded. Have you any knowledge of the status of Sueno Azul in Callao Salvaje...tourist, mixed use land
or another category. I would like to thank you on behalf of the "silent" members of this Forum for your many
informative posts.
think loaded is in a , I want to post as if there is no challenge to the whole daft canary letting law pantomime mood. He is talking about the mad new draft law, that proposes to allow the dormant touristics to have 2 years to get up and running again like mini hotels with the wonderful and essential sole agent overlord running all the renting. Plus that new daft draft law will at the same time ban the residential people from the now active touristics under threat of a 30,000 euro fine should they defiantly remain resident in their apartments rather than obey the law and hand over the apartment to the sole agent overlord to do the renting in it.
Thankfully due to the bd euro law the whole current 1995 letting law as not properly ammended in 2009, is clearly totally illegal under euro law. The mad new draft law is straight out of the same insane , illogical mindset, as if individual holiday homes dont exist and as if people renting them out themselves might cause some sort of controversy.
Thats the reality today, no one need worry about what the canarian parliament dream up in terms of centrally planned illogical restrictive tourism laws, just as long as the canarian judges in the canarian high court continue to uphold the euro law.
Loaded would like to pretend nothing is /has changed , so he might post in a tone that implies that all is is well in the mad law world and that the daft draft law may still be a reality.
He is a bit like old Adolf holed up in the bunker in Berlin in april 1945. Still sending out orders to armies that no longer existed, trying to carry on as if the end was not certain and fast approaching.
The way things are going the new draft law will not even reach the law books.
nelson, you are so wrong ! I'm guessing you have not actually read the reports of the Judges' decision. Let's take one of the cases, the third quoted by Tenerife Solicitors regarding Surfing Club Aguila Playa ... in fact when I gave the link all those posts ago, I was too hasty - it should have been this one instead
http://www.poderjudicial.es/search/doAction?action=contentpdf&databasematch=AN&reference=6491384&links=surfing%20club%20aguila&optimize=20120911&publicinterface=true
And as I have already explained (twice) it concerns agreeing with the 2009 Act that prior authorisation is no longer needed (as a result of Bolkestein) and
SEXTO.- Procede, por lo expuesto, en aplicación del principio de retroactividad de la norma sancionadora mas favorable, estimar el recurso de apelación interpuesto por SURFING CLUB AGUILA PLAYA, sin hacer expreso pronunciamiento sobre las costas.
The one I actually quoted
http://www.poderjudicial.es/search/doAction?action=contentpdf&databasematch=AN&reference=6491374&links=surfing%20club%20aguila&optimize=20120911&publicinterface=true
was a later judgement by the very same Court upholding the closing down of the complex
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Further news posted on Janet's blog today by a contributor
Just to let you know that the government inspectors have arrived in Playa Blanca, Lanzarote. So far they have visited 20 homes.
Nelson: I am quoting a draft law and existing laws, you are quoting imaginary laws that do not exist ..... Who's Adolf in the bunker here?
Hello Loaded. Have you any knowledge of the status of Sueno Azul in Callao Salvaje...tourist, mixed use land
or another category. I would like to thank you on behalf of the "silent" members of this Forum for your many
informative posts.
Thanks Jollypolly.... My advice would be to go to the cabildo and check the status of the development - if it has ever had a touristic license then there is still hope of working within the existing laws.
bonitatime
13-04-2013, 17:30
Loaded thanks for your comments they are always helpful
Nelson - Have you started advertising and renting out again?
brianandelaine
13-04-2013, 17:35
Hello Loaded. Have you any knowledge of the status of Sueno Azul in Callao Salvaje...tourist, mixed use land
or another category. I would like to thank you on behalf of the "silent" members of this Forum for your many
informative posts. hi jollypolly sueno azul ls mixed you have to register with wimpen as they are the single agents to let out to the best of my knowledge they have an office by the poole bar.
There's a report of a press conference held in the last few days by the CC & PSOE parties on their suggested amendments to the new draft law
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/nueva-ley-turistica-premia-renovacion-da-via-libre-al-lujo/
Interesting regarding villas - they seem to be reducing the distance from the sea front - before it was proposed to be 500m, now a lesser limit: either 200 or 300 m
Ordenación de las villas. Coalición propugna en su enmienda que las villas turísticas deberán emplazarse a no menos de 300 metros de la línea límite del dominio público marítimo-terrestre, salvo que estén integradas en complejos hoteleros de cuatro o más estrellas. Los socialistas colocan esta distancia en 200 metros.
Very interesting but at the same time ridiculous. It is perfectly normal and uncontroversial all around the world for holiday homes , villas , apartments, gites , cottages, to be rented out by their owners to tourists.
Clearly the only logic to restricting freedom to rent to a designated zone determined as a distance from the sea front is to blatantly offer commercial protection to other tourist accommodation business's . Thus the canary parliament considers that it is acceptable and legal to restrict villa business's to be excluded from operating in the vicinity of hotels. As if the villas are actually taking the hotels customers.
This blatant protectionism is blatantly corrupt, no western democratic govt could reasonably make a case for acting in this way, no way is this type of restrictive meddling in the interest of the whole canary economy and people.
It's time the independent judges in the canaries/ Spain began a full investigation into tourismos actions, this whole ridiculous assault on normal free market practises needs a full investigation and those in govt who are involved need to be challenged as to why they are favouring one commercial sector.
Those in the canary govt who are responsible for these absurd policies are making. Spain/ canaries a laughing stock to the world.
Good job the eu are sorting it all out eh?!!
Good job the eu are sorting it all out eh?!!
Of course , or rather the eu law and normal real world standards were always there , the canary govt just tried to carry on their own mad Alice in wonderland system regardless .
Individuals renting out their holiday homes is normal and uncontroversial the world over, and protected by eu law
The Canaries will remain with their special status and continues in the way the new draft law is set out.
Sole agents only.
The Canaries will remain with their special status and continues in the way the new draft law is set out.
Sole agents only.
You and me both know that will not happen , the canaries will evolve like everywhere else, individuals renting holiday homes , it's not controversial or challenging ,
individuals renting holiday homes
Will not be the practice in the Canaries
Will not be the practice in the Canaries
It's been the practise in the canaries for decades anyway, it carried on right through including after 1995. Of course the canaries will accept this perfectly normal state of affairs.
If you are being sincere in saying that it's never going to happen in the canaries , then frankly you are just deluded. It was the same in 1989 in east Germany when the wall was coming down and people power suddenly swept away the decades of unjust dictatorship. The East German border guards stood back , impotent to stand in the way of the inevitable return of freedom and democracy. Of course the former East German dictator , Eric Honecker , in Moscow for his own protection was still urging the soviets to get the border guards to start shooting to kill the protesters at the wall.
Honecker was blind to the reality , his regime could not endure, reality and justice was always going to be the future.
That's exactly what's happening with the crazy unjust and protectionist canary letting laws.
Angusjim
14-04-2013, 09:43
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
z
Mark a very well thought out response but can you give a bit more detail:lol:
You should have a look here - published 13/April/ 2013
A clear look at the draft law, actual Laws, BD, and the famous 2009/1995
www.seriolinelawyerstenerife.com/definitive.guide.tourism.rentals.in.the.canaries (http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/)
The Nelson Guide to Debate:
1. find an argument / debate that you're losing.....
2. say; "you're talking rubbish"....
3. ignore even the most minute pieces of evidence to back up your point.
4. proceed to recite a story from a political or historical event.
5. Be sure to present the person you're arguing against as the beligerant in your example - if you can, use a world war 2 examples and present yourself as churchill and your adversary as Hitler, Hess, Mussolini, pre 1941 Stalin, bormann, etc.....
6. if no world war 2 story springs to mind or someone calls you out on it, don't forget to fall back on Alice in Wonderland or if that gets used too much; "The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe" - NB - the mythical world was called Narnia...
7. repeat to fade.
The Nelson Guide to Debate:
1. find an argument / debate that you're losing.....
2. say; "you're talking rubbish"....
3. ignore even the most minute pieces of evidence to back up your point.
4. proceed to recite a story from a political or historical event.
5. Be sure to present the person you're arguing against as the beligerant in your example - if you can, use a world war 2 examples and present yourself as churchill and your adversary as Hitler, Hess, Mussolini, pre 1941 Stalin, bormann, etc.....
6. if no world war 2 story springs to mind or someone calls you out on it, don't forget to fall back on Alice in Wonderland or if that gets used too much; "The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe" - NB - the mythical world was called Narnia...
7. repeat to fade.
What a short memory you have. Not so long ago there was a whole ton of abuse heaped on Nelson for references to Franco and the dictatorship. Then along came another thread on this very forum highlighting an article by a journalist who made the point that Spain was struggling with the transformation from dictatorship to democracy. It was published in the spanish press. If you remember I even pointed it out. I'm reminding you again. Nelson was spot on.
I would hope this time when you get caught out you're big enough to apologise, I didn't notice one the last time.
You should have a look here - published 13/April/ 2013
A clear look at the draft law, actual Laws, BD, and the famous 2009/1995
www.seriolinelawyerstenerife.com/definitive.guide.tourism.rentals.in.the.canaries (http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/)
None of us need to study the minute details, we all know the whole crackdown was absurd from the start, any notion that private holiday apartments have and must be rented out under one single monopoly overlord, well it's crazy and bizarre . We all knew that our free western democracies don't ever do crazy restrictive things like that. To say nothing of the massive ott fines issued by the govts .
You need to stop considering what the govt has done or is doing at this time, they are not going to get away with it. The more the continue the nearer the day the judges are going to start asking them all unpleasant questions, like why on earth are you as a democratic govts prepared to fly in the face of economic reason and try to assist the hotel sector at the expense of alternative tourist accommodation ? Why are you as a democratic impartial govt so keen to protect the hotel businessmen?
Renting holiday homes by the owners , more and more with online adverts, is normal and uncontroversial the world over . Those in the canary govt who are battling so hard to stop this normal activity here are digging their own graves.given the damage they are doing to the canary economy and the resulting hardship to the Canarian population , they certainly will deserve all the law throws at them.
You're right and I'm sorry, I will revise the guide to include references to franco..........
The fact that Spain endured the longest fascist dictatorship on the 20th century is totally relevant to this crackdown . Spain remained a fascist dictatorship after ww2 , as Franco had not taken part in ww2 his govt remained after the downfall of the other fascist dictatorships in Europe.
The massive fines posed without any prior warnings are not the normal actions of western democratic govts. Clearly these cruel disproportionate actions have caused acute embarrassment to the judiciary in Spain and all parties who want to see Spain move towards democracy from dictatorship. Sadly the closeness of as hotel to the govt ministry tourismo , also alludes to the ways of the old dictatorship , favoured businessmen protected whilst the economic interests of the majority majority totally ignored.
You don't like me pointing this out because sadly this crazy crackdown could never have happened at all if the canary govt had fully respected democracy and had taken a none partisan view of the whole tourist market .
Red Devil
14-04-2013, 12:31
You should have a look here - published 13/April/ 2013
A clear look at the draft law, actual Laws, BD, and the famous 2009/1995
www.seriolinelawyerstenerife.com/definitive.guide.tourism.rentals.in.the.canaries (http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/)
Badgers?? I get badgers:)
The fact that Spain endured the longest fascist dictatorship on the 20th century is totally relevant to this crackdown . Spain remained a fascist dictatorship after ww2 , as Franco had not taken part in ww2 his govt remained after the downfall of the other fascist dictatorships in Europe.
Not that I would want to give you a history lesson, nelson, but what about Portugal - Salazar and all that :)
The massive fines posed without any prior warnings are not the normal actions of western democratic govts. Clearly these cruel disproportionate actions have caused acute embarrassment to the judiciary in Spain and all parties who want to see Spain move towards democracy from dictatorship. Sadly the closeness of as hotel to the govt ministry tourismo , also alludes to the ways of the old dictatorship , favoured businessmen protected whilst the economic interests of the majority majority totally ignored.
You don't like me pointing this out because sadly this crazy crackdown could never have happened at all if the canary govt had fully respected democracy and had taken a none partisan view of the whole tourist market .
I am confused as to what evidence you have for your statement about the judiciary being "embarrassed"
None of us need to study the minute details, we all know the whole crackdown was absurd from the start, any notion that private holiday apartments have and must be rented out under one single monopoly overlord, well it's crazy and bizarre . We all knew that our free western democracies don't ever do crazy restrictive things like that. To say nothing of the massive ott fines issued by the govts .
You need to stop considering what the govt has done or is doing at this time, they are not going to get away with it. The more the continue the nearer the day the judges are going to start asking them all unpleasant questions, like why on earth are you as a democratic govts prepared to fly in the face of economic reason and try to assist the hotel sector at the expense of alternative tourist accommodation ? Why are you as a democratic impartial govt so keen to protect the hotel businessmen?
Renting holiday homes by the owners , more and more with online adverts, is normal and uncontroversial the world over . Those in the canary govt who are battling so hard to stop this normal activity here are digging their own graves.given the damage they are doing to the canary economy and the resulting hardship to the Canarian population , they certainly will deserve all the law throws at them.
this reply just proves that you don't read anything anyone says to you; the link 9plus gave (which you quoted and replied to above) contains BADGERS DANCING!
Angusjim
14-04-2013, 13:22
this reply just proves that you don't read anything anyone says to you; the link 9plus gave (which you quoted and replied to above) contains BADGERS DANCING!
Thank god you said that I thought it was me who could not work the link correctly:o
But I don't need to look at 9 plus link to still know that holiday home renting by the individual owners is normal and uncontroversial the world over .
None of his links are going to change that , and the canary govt crackdown is going to end in their own courts asking questions , deep searching questions , of the ministers and businessmen they are trying to help.
And Doreen , it is good that Portugal has moved towards reality, private renting is legal now, their govts is not in the pocket of Portuguese hotel owners. Yes they lived in dictatorship too, they are moving towards democracy better than the canaries for now.
The canary judges will see that the canaries catch up
But I don't need to look at 9 plus link to still know that holiday home renting by the individual owners is normal and uncontroversial the world over .
So basically by not clicking anyone links that support their argument you are totally unwilling to entertain any viewpoint other than your own and it seems you do not actually read what anyone puts across to you.....
THEREFORE IT IS POINTLESS HAVING A DEBATE, ARGUMENT OR EVEN A CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LISTEN, READ OR CONSIDER WHAT ANYONE ELSE SAYS.
Of course I take on board what people say.
But the problem is so obvious, the canary govt are trying to exist as if holiday home renting and Internet adverts for holiday homes don't exist.
Given that basic fact I really can't see that there is any debating points to justify the crackdown or the 1995 letting laws.
Indeed all the pros and cons of sole agency have been examined on here for months. The reasoned debate has always ended in the conclusion that sole agency serves absolutely no practical purpose .
As I keep saying, the euro laws of fair competition and harmonisation are going to sort this mess out. If it was not the bd law the solution would be there in another euro law.
The canary govt need to face facts and realise they can not run their affairs and economy like African dictators.
Of course I take on board what people say.
But the problem is so obvious, the canary govt are trying to exist as if holiday home renting and Internet adverts for holiday homes don't exist.
Given that basic fact I really can't see that there is any debating points to justify the crackdown or the 1995 letting laws.
Indeed all the pros and cons of sole agency have been examined on here for months. The reasoned debate has always ended in the conclusion that sole agency serves absolutely no practical purpose .
As I keep saying, the euro laws of fair competition and harmonisation are going to sort this mess out. If it was not the bd law the solution would be there in another euro law.
The canary govt need to face facts and realise they can not run their affairs and economy like African dictators.
if you take on board what people say why didn't you quote 9plus's badger quote with any reference to badgers and instead continued your standard retort?
If you'd clicked the link you'd have released he was talking badgers.
9 plus is always joking and posting amusing links . I look at some of them , sometimes they don't work. He never debates at all ever, just says things like sole agency is the way forward, best for canary tourism etc.
As I say , the issue has been debated , in my view the canary govt have done a ridiculous and very bad thing starting the crackdown . As far as touristics are concerned euro law is going to win a free renting market for holiday home owners, as it should be and as it is throughout Europe.
But if it helps , I promise to click on all 9 plus posted links from now on.
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Not that I would want to give you a history lesson, nelson, but what about Portugal - Salazar and all that :)
I am confused as to what evidence you have for your statement about the judiciary being "embarrassed"
You can see that this is embarrassing the judges because in their summing up in the gran canary appeals they describe the 1995 law as oddly interventionist . By this they are critising the very nature of the law. It represents govt intervention for no tangible benefit . The learned judges are left wondering why the govt brought the law in at all ?
You can see that this is embarrassing the judges because in their summing up in the gran canary appeals they describe the 1995 law as oddly interventionist . By this they are critising the very nature of the law. It represents govt intervention for no tangible benefit . The learned judges are left wondering why the govt brought the law in at all ?
Do they? Link to judges comments?
not a link to comments and interpretations of judges comments......... or a link to badgers.
Of course I take on board what people say.
But the problem is so obvious, the canary govt are trying to exist as if holiday home renting and Internet adverts for holiday homes don't exist.
Given that basic fact I really can't see that there is any debating points to justify the crackdown or the 1995 letting laws.
Indeed all the pros and cons of sole agency have been examined on here for months. The reasoned debate has always ended in the conclusion that sole agency serves absolutely no practical purpose .
As I keep saying, the euro laws of fair competition and harmonisation are going to sort this mess out. If it was not the bd law the solution would be there in another euro law.
The canary govt need to face facts and realise they can not run their affairs and economy like African dictators.
But you don't - you only take onboard things that agree with your warped view or things that can be twisted to appear to be agreeing with your warped view. You totally ignore anything that doesn't back your views.
He read it in the Yorkshire Playgirl
Cheers.
x
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The Taxman is coming to get you
You're right and I'm sorry, I will revise the guide to include references to franco..........
Don't forget Honecker!!!!
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He read it in the Yorkshire Playgirl
Cheers.
x
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
The Taxman is coming to get you
Hurrah,Hurrah (HE may leave the rest of us alone for a while,the taxman not Pandy Nelson cos we would miss him.I'd have to go back on the sleeping pills).Plus 9 what can you tell us about Honecker? Doreen please, please don't mention Portugal in a post to Nelson,we've only just got him off the subject.
None of us need to study the minute details, we all know the whole crackdown was absurd from the start, any notion that private holiday apartments have and must be rented out under one single monopoly overlord, well it's crazy and bizarre ....... blah blah blah.
Nelson, I find your use of the word "overlord" quite insulting.
You are really getting to sound like a stuck record, can you find something new to say that might be appropriate to this subject?
Nelson, I find your use of the word "overlord" quite insulting.
You are really getting to sound like a stuck record, can you find something new to say that might be appropriate to this subject?
Like a link to that quote attributed to the judges ...
Like a link to that quote attributed to the judges ...
I hope you are not in any kind of rush !
If you go to Canarian Weekly's web page, under legal matters it contains the 2 links below to articles written by Mariano E Zunino Siri who is a Spanish lawyer and is explaining his view on the current legal position.
1) http://www.canarianweekly.com/tourism-law-fines-letting-apartments/
2) http://www.canarianweekly.com/repercussions-tourism-law/
He explains that there are 2 laws covering Short Term Lettings - a national one which covers normal lets and an autonomous one which only applies in the Canaries. Under the national law you can let your property how you want provided you are not indulging in a touristic activity as that would breache the Autonomous law.
I bet John and Nelson could teach Mariano a few tricks
duncan-6
15-04-2013, 17:37
In Portugal, it's only 400 euros for a 12 month permit,...Oops sorry.
In Portugal, it's only 400 euros for a 12 month permit,...Oops sorry.
No wonder they're broke xx
That would be a good idea to do here has anyone mentioned that already, a yearly permit.
That would be a good idea to do here has anyone mentioned that already, a yearly permit.
With no sole agent overlord - it is like the slaved in America , they were repressed and given no freedom or rights of their own..... Then they rose up and.... Zzzzz
If its got big ears and trunk it's an elephant.
Sorry if you find it insulting but that's exactly what monopoly sole agents are. They rule the roost on a touristic complex , all the owners of properties on the complex are compelled to rent through them , they can't just do it themselves or use an agent of their own free choice.
Overlord is the correct term for such a character, someone on here please post the Oxford dictionary definition of overlord to see how close I am . I am going to look now but I post confidently believing I am not too far wrong.
If its got big ears and trunk it's an elephant.
Sorry if you find it insulting but that's exactly what monopoly sole agents are. They rule the roost on a touristic complex , all the owners of properties on the complex are compelled to rent through them , they can't just do it themselves or use an agent of their own free choice.
Overlord is the correct term for such a character, someone on here please post the Oxford dictionary definition of overlord to see how close I am . I am going to look now but I post confidently believing I am not too far wrong.
Perhaps one of the admin overlords can find this information ?
just had a look online, best choice says,
a person of great power or authority,
sounds about right to me
just had a look online, best choice says,
a person of great power or authority,
sounds about right to me
I found this: I can see why Oasis might be insulted
Main Entry: overlord [oh-ver-lawrd]
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: tyrant
Synonyms: chief, czar, despot, emperor, ruler, suzerain
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Copyright © 2013 by the Philip Lief Group.
Cite This Source
Well I did say look in the oed , that's where I got my definition from. The overlord does not have to be a tyrant , and despots can be enlightened.
But of course there's no disputing that all overlords are people of power and authority. Also the medieval conortations also make the point that basically they should have no place in the modern world.
I will stick with overlord , seems accurate to me
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And I might add, because overlords have the power and authority if they do behave like tyrants , then well, everyone else under their authority is well stuffed.
Yes I feel sure I am using the correct word to describe what a monopoly sole agent is,
An overlord
Altamira
15-04-2013, 22:02
Well I did say look in the oed , that's where I got my definition from. The overlord does not have to be a tyrant , and despots can be enlightened.
But of course there's no disputing that all overlords are people of power and authority. Also the medieval conortations also make the point that basically they should have no place in the modern world.
I will stick with overlord , seems accurate to me
Overlord According to the Collins Concise English Dictionary the term "Overlord" means supreme lord or master. I think many independent apartment owners would consider the term "overlord" to be reasonably apt. Some overlords appear to be monopoly crazed sole agents.
How pathetic is this thread now,with child like comments and little snide remarks
hahahaha that nelson is a lad, I concur
junglejim
16-04-2013, 03:06
I found this: I can see why Oasis might be insulted
Main Entry: overlord [oh-ver-lawrd]
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: tyrant
Synonyms: chief, czar, despot, emperor, ruler, suzerain
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Copyright © 2013 by the Philip Lief Group.
Cite This Source
How's about Caudillo then since we're dealing in a Hispanic context ?
princessmonika
16-04-2013, 06:52
this post seems to be going forever-- ???
this post seems to be going forever-- ???
Read it again
Well I did say look in the oed , that's where I got my definition from. The overlord does not have to be a tyrant , and despots can be enlightened.
But of course there's no disputing that all overlords are people of power and authority. Also the medieval conortations also make the point that basically they should have no place in the modern world.
I will stick with overlord , seems accurate to me
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And I might add, because overlords have the power and authority if they do behave like tyrants , then well, everyone else under their authority is well stuffed.
Yes I feel sure I am using the correct word to describe what a monopoly sole agent is,
An overlord
By the way Nelson, you have to pay your IGIC by the 22nd of this month for the first quarter - hope you have the ability or another fine may be heading your way!
This overlord has paid it on behalf of all the legally registered letting owners on this complex, who pays it on yours?
By the way Nelson, you have to pay your IGIC by the 22nd of this month for the first quarter - hope you have the ability or another fine may be heading your way!
This overlord has paid it on behalf of all the legally registered letting owners on this complex, who pays it on yours?
Now that is the proper way of helping the Canarian economy innit .... Paying proper taxes and paying them in the country the income was earned ... As the EU requires ... Mmmmmm same EU that's going to allow Nellie permission to carry on with his very own pocket lining excersise "
Angusjim
16-04-2013, 14:14
Now that is the proper way of helping the Canarian economy innit .... Paying proper taxes and paying them in the country the income was earned ... As the EU requires ... Mmmmmm same EU that's going to allow Nellie permission to carry on with his very own pocket lining excersise "
Good advice to the Canarians as well ;)
Good advice to the Canarians as well ;)
Good advice to the Yorkshire women as well ;)
junglejim
16-04-2013, 15:14
They have women in Yorkshire ??? EEE Bye GUM !!
Hi,
I am new to this thread having been in UK since 2011. I am an owner of a property of which I don't rent out.
WOW - whats been happening! Have got the gist of the pages I have read, many of them, and it looks to me like there are 2 sides to this thread:
Firstly: Letting agents and owners who rent legally are justifying the canarian law.
and
Secondly: Owners who rent illegally who are trying to justify their version of what the canarian law should be.
From what I have read the legal owners and letting agents are winning.
They have women in Yorkshire ??? EEE Bye GUM !!
Royston Vasey!
Altamira
16-04-2013, 15:56
Hi,
I am new to this thread having been in UK since 2011. I am an owner of a property of which I don't rent out.
WOW - whats been happening! Have got the gist of the pages I have read, many of them, and it looks to me like there are 2 sides to this thread:
Firstly: Letting agents and owners who rent legally are justifying the canarian law.
and
Secondly: Owners who rent illegally who are trying to justify their version of what the canarian law should be.
From what I have read the legal owners and letting agents are winning.
The Third Side There are many owners of touristic apartments who do not rent out, but they are against the concept of the sole agent monopoly, as it has a detrimental affect on the resale values of such apartments. This is because some of the sole agents do not offer an acceptable arrangement for the actual owners. It is not a case of who is winning, because it has been the law since 1995, the real question is will the proposed new laws be better or worse for the actual owners.
The real question is will the proposed new laws be better or worse for the actual TOURISTS.
Angusjim
16-04-2013, 17:21
The real question is will the proposed new laws be better or worse for the actual TOURISTS.
I think Nelson will put you straight about that shortly:)
I think Nelson will put you straight about that shortly:)
He's just a bit busy sorting out his IGIC returns so as to help the Canairian economy .... or was that Alice?
Angusjim
16-04-2013, 17:26
He's just a bit busy sorting out his IGIC returns so as to help the Canairian economy .... or was that Alice?
I still laugh about my final tax payments in Tenerife a few years ago the accountant I used asked to be paid in cash as it would save us both money brilliant:laugh:
I think Nelson will put you straight about that shortly:)
nelsons opinion is irrelevant to tourism in the Canaries
watch how it changes NOTHING
junglejim
16-04-2013, 17:28
The real question is will the proposed new laws be better or worse for the actual TOURISTS.
Bear in mind 9+ most of us owners were tourists too - so we might have an idea what we need ! Tourismo only see it from one side as well !
Angusjim
16-04-2013, 17:30
nelsons opinion is irrelevant to tourism in the Canaries
watch how it changes NOTHING
You could say that about every post on this thread:spin:
You could say that about every post on this thread:spin:
Exactly i concur
If I was allowed to rent my apartment legally, I would be very happy to pay IGIC - as well as claiming the IGIC back on all my purchases! Chance would be a fine thing ....!
If I was allowed to rent my apartment legally, I would be very happy to pay IGIC - as well as claiming the IGIC back on all my purchases! Chance would be a fine thing ....!
But you are - if it is touristic then your agent would sort it for you, or it is a residantia than you can long let legally and have your accountant do your books??!!
But you are - if it is touristic then your agent would sort it for you, or it is a residantia than you can long let legally and have your accountant do your books??!!
My understanding is that IGIC is only due on short term lets, not on long term (unless say, in the long term you were providing additional services, such as cleaning) :)
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