View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
My understanding is that IGIC is only due on short term lets, not on long term (unless say, in the long term you were providing additional services, such as cleaning) :)
Fair point - just adding to the fun
They would make more revenue from taxes if private letting was allowed in a controlled way - licence fee to let, IGIC on income etc!
Just read on JA site that La Laguna Ayuntamiento are now going to fine tourists for being on the beaches before 10-30 in the morning and after 8 at night!! They really don't like tourists in Tenerife do they - you couldn't make it up!
bonitatime
16-04-2013, 21:07
They are going to fine locales for using the beach. Not sure there are many tourists on La Laguna beaches
Does anyone know why people on beaches is a problem ? Why would it be an issue anyway if the remain after 8pm?
Does anyone know why people on beaches is a problem ? Why would it be an issue anyway if the remain after 8pm?
Maybe they are drying their washing because as we know that,s banned now??
KirstyJay
16-04-2013, 21:54
By the way Nelson, you have to pay your IGIC by the 22nd of this month for the first quarter - hope you have the ability or another fine may be heading your way!
This overlord has paid it on behalf of all the legally registered letting owners on this complex, who pays it on yours? I was under the impression the cut off date was the 20th by my gestor, the same as the Pago fraccionado... Am I mistaken? It would just be handy to know for sure :)
Nelson - there's absolutely no problem with people using the beach after 8pm, any more than there's no problem with people letting their own apartments!
Just a good excuse to fine people - gets more like Noddy land every day!
junglejim
16-04-2013, 22:51
No such restriction on using beaches , just an advisory that outwith the hours with lifeguards , you do so at your own risk - more half - baked pash !
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/ayuntamiento-laguna-asegura-prohibira-bano-en-ningun-horario/
Quote
"Solo pretendemos concienciar a los usuarios de que fuera de los horarios establecidos no hay servicios de socorrismo o salvamento para ayudarles en caso de que fuera necesario”, ha explicado.
Javier Abreu ha indicado que “no es intención del Ayuntamiento prohibir a nadie que se bañe en los horarios en los que no haya vigilancia”
Not if you read JA Junglejim - they are planning fines of us to 1500 Euros! Also just read they are going to instigate fines for the restaurants still using plastic chairs - 3000 Euros and they won't be able to renew their licence! What will they think of next - fines for sunburnt tourists leaving from the airport? The possibilities are endless!
junglejim
16-04-2013, 23:12
Not if you read JA Junglejim - they are planning fines of us to 1500 Euros! Also just read they are going to instigate fines for the restaurants still using plastic chairs - 3000 Euros and they won't be able to renew their licence! What will they think of next - fines for sunburnt tourists leaving from the airport? The possibilities are endless!
The quote above is from head of municipal service of the Ayuntamiento de La Laguna - Janet writes a blog .
They would make more revenue from taxes if private letting was allowed in a controlled way - licence fee to let, IGIC on income etc!
Just read on JA site that La Laguna Ayuntamiento are now going to fine tourists for being on the beaches before 10-30 in the morning and after 8 at night!! They really don't like tourists in Tenerife do they - you couldn't make it up!
That's a misunderstanding. La Laguna aren't going to fine anyone using the beaches out of the hours expressed, its simply that there is no lifeguards on duty.
Maybe they are drying their washing because as we know that,s banned now??
Exactly "??"
Adeje are banning clothing/washing hanging off balconies and out of windows. A washing line and the typical washing Pegasus on your balcony will not be subject to a fine,
junglejim
17-04-2013, 00:06
That's a misunderstanding. La Laguna aren't going to fine anyone using the beaches out of the hours expressed, its simply that there is no lifeguards on duty.
Exactly "??"
Adeje are banning clothing/washing hanging off balconies and out of windows. A washing line and the typical washing Pegasus on your balcony will not be subject to a fine,
Spain will never look the same again without the washing hanging out !Or having a barbie on your terrace!
Spain will never look the same again without the washing hanging out !Or having a barbie on your terrace!
Spain? Don't you mean Adeje?
bonitatime
17-04-2013, 06:44
I was under the impression the cut off date was the 20th by my gestor, the same as the Pago fraccionado... Am I mistaken? It would just be handy to know for sure :)
I think you will find its this month as the 20th is Saturday. Our gestor said pay Monday
Goldenmaniac
17-04-2013, 07:55
I was under the impression the cut off date was the 20th by my gestor, the same as the Pago fraccionado... Am I mistaken? It would just be handy to know for sure :)
Have a look here :http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/tributos/portal/jsf/publico/asistenciaContribuyente/calendario/enero.jsp
IGIC
420 420 Régimen general
Hasta el día 22 el correspondiente al primer trimestre
421 Régimen simplificado
Hasta el día 22 el correspondiente al primer trimestrer
The 20th (22nd) is also income taxes etc
See here
http://www.agenciatributaria.es/static_files/AEAT/Contenidos_Comunes/Diversos/Acceso_Directo/A_un_click/Calen_contri_2013_es_es.pdf
Hasta el 22 Modelos
RENTA Y SOCIEDADES
Retenciones e ingresos a cuenta de rendimientos del trabajo, actividades
económicas, premios y determinadas ganancias patrimoniales e imputaciones
de renta, ganancias derivadas de acciones y participaciones de las instituciones
de inversión colectiva, rentas de arrendamiento de inmuebles urbanos,
capital mobiliario, personas autorizadas y saldos en cuentas.
• Marzo 2013. Grandes empresas 111,115,117,123,124,126,128
• Primer trimestre 2013 111,115,117,123,124,126,128
Pagos fraccionados Renta
• Primer trimestre 2013:
- Estimación directa 130
- Estimación objetiva 131
There are slight variations some quarters so check the calendars
No such restriction on using beaches , just an advisory that outwith the hours with lifeguards , you do so at your own risk - more half - baked pash !
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/ayuntamiento-laguna-asegura-prohibira-bano-en-ningun-horario/
Quote
"Solo pretendemos concienciar a los usuarios de que fuera de los horarios establecidos no hay servicios de socorrismo o salvamento para ayudarles en caso de que fuera necesario”, ha explicado.
Javier Abreu ha indicado que “no es intención del Ayuntamiento prohibir a nadie que se bañe en los horarios en los que no haya vigilancia”
They are just complying with their public liability insurance to prevent people claiming for accidents etc. When the Ayuntamientos make laws that are designed to improve the overall aspect of the town,they are mocked.When they don't do enough,they are mocked.They can't win especially on the forum! WIthout doubt they are looking to collect some income from somewhere.They have wages to pay,people to look after,streets to clean............and thousands of people who can't pay their IBI.(Then there is the question of corruption).
KirstyJay
17-04-2013, 08:36
Have a look here :http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/tributos/portal/jsf/publico/asistenciaContribuyente/calendario/enero.jsp
IGIC
The 20th (22nd) is also income taxes etc
See here
http://www.agenciatributaria.es/static_files/AEAT/Contenidos_Comunes/Diversos/Acceso_Directo/A_un_click/Calen_contri_2013_es_es.pdf
There are slight variations some quarters so check the calendars
Ver y useful links. Thanks
Sole Agents know all about those requirements
x
junglejim
17-04-2013, 08:46
Spain? Don't you mean Adeje?
Now you´re excluded from lying on your towel on certain areas of Beach in Arona - the power struggle is widening !
I always thought the beaches in Spain were open to public and not private like in Italy - Ley de la Costa and all that!
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/acotan-zonas-uso-exclusivo-para-hamacas-en-vistas/
Spain? Don't you mean Adeje?
This published this morning relating to possible bans on letting touristically in many other areas of Spain.
Also mentions some sort of permit / license system in effect in Catalunya
http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/22635/spain-may-ban-private-owners-from-letting-their-properties-to-holidaymakers
Another article on it here:
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2013/04/14/government-moves-to-restrict-holiday-rentals-in-spain/
This published this morning relating to possible bans on letting touristically in many other areas of Spain.
Also mentions some sort of permit / license system in effect in Catalunya
http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/22635/spain-may-ban-private-owners-from-letting-their-properties-to-holidaymakers
Another article on it here:
http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2013/04/14/government-moves-to-restrict-holiday-rentals-in-spain/
I thought we had already discussed this here - certainly was on Janet's blog.
More info on Catalonia here http://habitatgedusturistic.yolasite.com
Substantial changes were made in 2011 and 2012 affecting the legality of renting out a house or flat to holidaymakers in Catalonia. Every holiday rental property must now be registered with the Department of Tourism of Catalonia. Fines are proposed of up to €90,000 for non-compliance. While it is obvious that there will have to be some leniency during the transitional period, the authorities set 29 September 2012 as the closing date for registration of properties that are currently being advertised in internet or are with agents. As well as this register you have to set up an account with the Mossos d’Esquadra (police) in their register of “viatgers” the same as hotels have to do, and you must notify each let. And of course all rental income has to be declared.
EDIT Additional info.
THE LEGAL SITUATION AND WHO IS AFFECTED
Everybody who has a property that is rented to holidaymakers must have a licence for each property
The property must have a habitation certificate and must not have any restriction that prevents tourist use.
Every owner must do a tax declaration.
Every rental must be notified to the police.
Every website or agent that advertises or supervises holiday rentals must comply with the new law.
The Generalitat have passed the law and it is now overdue for coming into effect. Penalties of up to €90,000 have been declared for non-compliance.
The licensing in Catalunya may have been mentioned before but I doubt there are many on here who actually read all of the posts on this thread! I certainly dont....
Looks like the Government are bending over countrywide for the hotel lobbies which will be quite a kick in the teeth for all the owners all over Spain who have bought to rent out in areas where there are no restrictions and now may find themselves in a position where it (literally overnight) becomes illegal to do so because of a change in the law.
I doubt there are many on here who actually read all of the posts on this thread! I certainly dont....
What the hell have you been doing while on holiday ????????
What the hell have you been doing while on holiday ????????
I stayed in a "well illegal" apartment in Miami :)
junglejim
17-04-2013, 16:44
I stayed in a "well illegal" apartment in Miami :)
Was it run by illegals from Cuba ?
welshman
17-04-2013, 21:17
I thought we had already discussed this here - certainly was on Janet's blog.
More info on Catalonia here http://habitatgedusturistic.yolasite.com
Substantial changes were made in 2011 and 2012 affecting the legality of renting out a house or flat to holidaymakers in Catalonia. Every holiday rental property must now be registered with the Department of Tourism of Catalonia. Fines are proposed of up to €90,000 for non-compliance. While it is obvious that there will have to be some leniency during the transitional period, the authorities set 29 September 2012 as the closing date for registration of properties that are currently being advertised in internet or are with agents. As well as this register you have to set up an account with the Mossos d’Esquadra (police) in their register of “viatgers” the same as hotels have to do, and you must notify each let. And of course all rental income has to be declared.
EDIT Additional info.
THE LEGAL SITUATION AND WHO IS AFFECTED
Everybody who has a property that is rented to holidaymakers must have a licence for each property
The property must have a habitation certificate and must not have any restriction that prevents tourist use.
Every owner must do a tax declaration.
Every rental must be notified to the police.
Every website or agent that advertises or supervises holiday rentals must comply with the new law.
The Generalitat have passed the law and it is now overdue for coming into effect. Penalties of up to €90,000 have been declared for non-compliance.
Is this the way forward seams common sence
Liecence, Inspect, Control, and receive tax revenue more jobs more tax returns and customers get what they want.
Or is it pie in the sky. I think this illegal letting in Spain / Canaries is going to kill property prices unless some one calls a halt and take the government to court. Before it get to late.
I stayed in a "well illegal" apartment in Miami :)last time we went to orlando we only met about 3 americans??? they are all mexican:laugh:
Fivepence
20-04-2013, 14:47
3 days since the last post...................remarkable considering!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3 days since the last post...................remarkable considering!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So why spoil it
Think everyone is awaiting Nellie's next installment....
junglejim
20-04-2013, 18:10
I think the Tsunami story went over his head!
I think the Tsunami story went over his head!
The eu laws overule tsunamis
The tsunami continues.........
we come over on the 14th may and because we stop in my welsh cousins place on el mirador twice a year for the last 6 years we have no probs, but my sister in law and brother in law have just decided to come with us and are trying to get an apartment on the same complex at the same time, we have given them a list of about 50 contacts but they have got no chance:(, owners are so scared to let them, the questions they ask when you ring, they want your e-mail address, your mobile your home number how you got their contact details:dontknow:, some of them are in a position where they can no longer pay the mortgage on the apartments because they now no longer have the rental income, but the fear of giving info to a potential investigator that may be trying to trick them is more overpowering than giving it to a potential renter:(, it is such a sad situation, there is a fantastic product out there and an abundance of takers but for some stupid reason it has stopped working:(, there you go 5p the posts continue;):lol:
we come over on the 14th may and because we stop in my welsh cousins place on el mirador twice a year for the last 6 years we have no probs, but my sister in law and brother in law have just decided to come with us and are trying to get an apartment on the same complex at the same time, we have given them a list of about 50 contacts but they have got no chance:(, owners are so scared to let them, the questions they ask when you ring, they want your e-mail address, your mobile your home number how you got their contact details:dontknow:, some of them are in a position where they can no longer pay the mortgage on the apartments because they now no longer have the rental income, but the fear of giving info to a potential investigator that may be trying to trick them is more overpowering than giving it to a potential renter:(, it is such a sad situation, there is a fantastic product out there and an abundance of takers but for some stupid reason it has stopped working:(, there you go 5p the posts continue;):lol:
Why don't they long let the properties if they can't pay the mortgage ? They would save 7 % igic on tourist rentals and would have no cleaning expenses .., 600-650 per month before tax. Could even be more financially viable than holiday letting on there .
Why don't they long let the properties if they can't pay the mortgage ? They would save 7 % igic on tourist rentals and would have no cleaning expenses .., 600-650 per month before tax. Could even be more financially viable than holiday letting on there .maybe they don't know about that option :dontknow:, i am sure if they did it would be the answer to their prayers;)
maybe they don't know about that option :dontknow:, i am sure if they did it would be the answer to their prayers;)
Or more likely :
They don't want to do that because they like going on holiday to their home in the sun in between rentals.
Weird how when you're struggling to pay your mortgage you won't give up your holidays.
Or more likely :
They don't want to do that because they like going on holiday to their home in the sun in between rentals.
Weird how when you're struggling to pay your mortgage you won't give up your holidays.
Not so much weird John, but just what they,ve always done,and there is loads more like them who have done this.doesn,t make it right, but the property market will take a real nose dive if these people are forced economically to sell
Angusjim
21-04-2013, 08:08
we come over on the 14th may and because we stop in my welsh cousins place on el mirador twice a year for the last 6 years we have no probs, but my sister in law and brother in law have just decided to come with us and are trying to get an apartment on the same complex at the same time, we have given them a list of about 50 contacts but they have got no chance:(, owners are so scared to let them, the questions they ask when you ring, they want your e-mail address, your mobile your home number how you got their contact details:dontknow:, some of them are in a position where they can no longer pay the mortgage on the apartments because they now no longer have the rental income, but the fear of giving info to a potential investigator that may be trying to trick them is more overpowering than giving it to a potential renter:(, it is such a sad situation, there is a fantastic product out there and an abundance of takers but for some stupid reason it has stopped working:(, there you go 5p the posts continue;):lol:
Is it illegal to do holiday lets on Mirador ? I have not read anything about this :dontknow:I know I guy called Ecky who rents there all the time:whistle:
Not so much weird John, but just what they,ve always done,and there is loads more like them who have done this.doesn,t make it right, but the property market will take a real nose dive if these people are forced economically to sell
Exactly why I suggested long lets.
welshman
24-04-2013, 14:34
The clamp down on illegal letting and inspection of people that own and stay on the Island for more than 168 days are starting to have an effect. Know of 3 couples that have sold up after 10/12 years In tenerife going back home.
They will become swallows next year. If there are apartments available. This must have an effect on the island going forward. They were concerned of being dobbed in and declaring any property or wealth still held outside for tax. They were very lucky to sell apartments. Another loss to the local economy and island.
Sad state of affairs.
The clamp down on illegal letting and inspection of people that own and stay on the Island for more than 168 days are starting to have an effect. Know of 3 couples that have sold up after 10/12 years In tenerife going back home.
They will become swallows next year. If there are apartments available. This must have an effect on the island going forward. They were concerned of being dobbed in and declaring any property or wealth still held outside for tax. They were very lucky to sell apartments. Another loss to the local economy and island.
Sad state of affairs.
So they didn't want to pay tax and left - and they're a loss to the economy????
Albatros
24-04-2013, 16:02
So they didn't want to pay tax and left - and they're a loss to the economy????
That was my reading too.
Someone really should have told them that you currently don't get taxed on your foreign assets anyway.....
jogger321
24-04-2013, 17:39
Is it illegal to do holiday lets on Mirador ? I have not read anything about this :dontknow:I know I guy called Ecky who rents there all the time:whistle:
Of course its not a problem who told you that? If you buy a new apartment on El Mirador you will be able to rent out to tourists and they will soon be able to enjoy visiting the planned new beach at the back of the Arona Gran. You will be able to use the money from the holiday rentals to pay your mortgage plus of course you will enjoy the capital appreciation year on year on the property. If you don't fancy El Mirador have a look at Dinastia a little further up the gentle incline where you can enjoy the same benefits if you purchase although it will be a little further walk to the planned new beach
Velocette
24-04-2013, 17:46
So they didn't want to pay tax and left - and they're a loss to the economy????
Mmm, well tax avoidance apart, the fact that they are no longer here spending their money on all the everyday essentials and luxuries must surely be a loss to the economy?
The clamp down on illegal letting and inspection of people that own and stay on the Island for more than 168 days are starting to have an effect. Know of 3 couples that have sold up after 10/12 years In tenerife going back home.
They will become swallows next year. If there are apartments available. This must have an effect on the island going forward. They were concerned of being dobbed in and declaring any property or wealth still held outside for tax. They were very lucky to sell apartments. Another loss to the local economy and island.
Sad state of affairs.
Mmm, well tax avoidance apart, the fact that they are no longer here spending their money on all the everyday essentials and luxuries must surely be a loss to the economy?
....................
What difference does that make? the new owners will still pay for the bins, tax, electricity, etc etc
Did no one sell up prior to these inspections?
welshman
24-04-2013, 18:05
Mmm, well tax avoidance apart, the fact that they are no longer here spending their money on all the everyday essentials and luxuries must surely be a loss to the economy?
I,m glad that someone else see further than just tax, these couples lived hear for over 12 years shopped in local shops e
ate at the local restaurants drank in the local bars, once twice a week. May not be a great loss but will have
an effect if to many up sticks. They may be replaced with illegal renters LOL we know what some on hear
thinks of them.
Down in Tenerife on the 6th May for one day criusing from Southampton down around the islands and back big 60 birthday Cheaper than flights and illegal apartment for the family.
I,m glad that someone else see further than just tax, these couples lived hear for over 12 years shopped in local shops e
ate at the local restaurants drank in the local bars, once twice a week. May not be a great loss but will have
an effect if to many up sticks. They may be replaced with illegal renters LOL we know what some on hear
thinks of them.
Down in Tenerife on the 6th May for one day criusing from Southampton down around the islands and back big 60 birthday Cheaper than flights and illegal apartment for the family.
So what?? You don't think the new owners will contribute in anyway the local economy ???? The whole argument about that is ridiculous .
You've already said they left because they lived here and were concerned about having to pay tax on their foreign assets (which they don't actually get taxed on at the moment)..... What has this got to do with illegal Lettings? Nothing!
These people left for other reasons than illegal Lettings and other reasons than tax on foreign earnings (because there is no tax on them!).
Sounds like they used one or two of the above as a reason for leaving and there was another reason that they'd rather not admit to....
Down in Tenerife on the 6th May for one day criusing from Southampton down around the islands and back big 60 birthday Cheaper than flights and illegal apartment for the family.
Other holidays that are cheaper than tenerife;
Skegness
Blackpool
Scarborough
Brighton
Your point is......?
I hope those 3 couples informed the new owners of the situation.
3 couples sold up and are "going back home" <-----does this mean they are currently renting and still spending?
Not only has the scenario been maintained, Tenerife has gained 6 new swallows a year + sales taxes etc, etc.
Also IKEA should do quite well...
welshman
24-04-2013, 18:44
Other holidays that are cheaper than tenerife;
Skegness
Blackpool
Scarborough
Brighton
Your point is......?
Touchy Touchy !!!! People like you are spoiling this forum. Only your veiw count and your other muppet
Touchy Touchy !!!! People like you are spoiling this forum. Only your veiw count and your other muppet
Seriously? Or is it that your arguments are poorly thought out? You can't just spout rubbish out and not expect done one to pull you on it.
Next time I read total claptrap ill just ignore it- I wouldn't want to spoil the forum by exposing bolIocks
Sounds to me as though Tenerife did great from those 3 sales.
Bring on more of it.
Velocette
24-04-2013, 20:04
Someone really should have told them that you currently don't get taxed on your foreign assets anyway.....
I thought if you stay beyond 168 days you become a 'fiscal resident' and are obliged to declare ALL your world wide assests above 50,000 euro's, and it's ALL liable for tax?
Altamira
24-04-2013, 20:24
I thought if you stay beyond 168 days you become a 'fiscal resident' and are obliged to declare ALL your world wide assests above 50,000 euro's, and it's ALL liable for tax?
Taxation Yes, I think you may be correct and if the poverty stricken spanish government need some extra booty, they may introduce a wealth tax on your world wide assets. Perhaps that is why some are reconsidering where best to be taxed and move back to ?
I thought if you stay beyond 168 days you become a 'fiscal resident' and are obliged to declare ALL your world wide assests above 50,000 euro's, and it's ALL liable for tax?
If you stay over that number of days you need to register with the tax authority here and declare all your worldwide assets. That's not to say you will be taxed on the asset/s, just any income that's derived from it.
Of course once they know what you've got................ Who knows what scheme they'll come up with to relieve you of some of it, just think of Cyprus !!!
Altamira
24-04-2013, 20:35
If you stay over that number of days you need to register with the tax authority here and declare all your worldwide assets. That's not to say you will be taxed on the asset/s, just any income that's derived from it.
Of course once they know what you've got................ Who knows what scheme they'll come up with to relieve you of some of it, just think of Cyprus !!!
Wealth Tax I think all poverty stricken governments will need to introduce some form of wealth tax.
I thought if you stay beyond 168 days you become a 'fiscal resident' and are obliged to declare ALL your world wide assests above 50,000 euro's, and it's ALL liable for tax?
They don't yet tax you but the smart money is that they will begin to do this . At the moment you are obliged to declare but you don't pay tax on foreign assets.
Fivepence
24-04-2013, 20:44
They don't yet tax you but the smart money is that they will begin to do this . At the moment you are obliged to declare but you don't pay tax on foreign assets.
Since Cyprus was told/allowed to rob from it's citizens/investors...............all bets are off. :mad:
They don't yet tax you but the smart money is that they will begin to do this . At the moment you are obliged to declare but you don't pay tax on foreign assets.
We are going way off topic .... but, if you are a tax resident here, they do actually charge Wealth Tax on assets (be they based in Spain or abroad) once above a certain threshold, which no doubt will be lowered in the following years :(
[QUOTE=Loaded;281791]Other holidays that are cheaper than tenerife;
Skegness
Blackpool
Scarborough
Brighton
Your point is......?[/QUOTE
come off it loaded, I cant speak for the last one on the list but the top three are far more expensive to holiday at than tenerife. Given the usual weather its basically spend , spend spend at the top three to amuse the family. Its not like sitting on the beach in los cristo with a tuna sandwich and a bottle of supersol at 49 cents.
Nothing cheap about uk breaks and holidays.
Altamira
24-04-2013, 21:15
We are going way off topic .... but, if you are a tax resident here, they do actually charge Wealth Tax on assets (be they based in Spain or abroad) once above a certain threshold, which no doubt will be lowered in the following years :( Wealth Tax Yes, we are a bit off topic but, I asume there is a good chance of the trigger threshold being reduced and the % of tax being increased. I have certainly taken steps to reduce my risks in this department. I think the illegal rental issues have caused me some alarm and I have re-assesed my commitment to invest in the Canaries.
[QUOTE=Loaded;281791]Other holidays that are cheaper than tenerife;
Skegness
Blackpool
Scarborough
Brighton
Your point is......?[/QUOTE
come off it loaded, I cant speak for the last one on the list but the top three are far more expensive to holiday at than tenerife. Given the usual weather its basically spend , spend spend at the top three to amuse the family. Its not like sitting on the beach in los cristo with a tuna sandwich and a bottle of supersol at 49 cents.
Nothing cheap about uk breaks and holidays.
Behave Nelson the cost of flights alone puts Tenerife up straight away.... There's other things to do in tenerife apart from sit on a beach, Siam park , Loro Parque etc
As if everyone who goes to Blackpool goes to the pleasure beach , sealife centre, Blackpool tower , sandcastle..... Blackpool zoo.... Ice scating.... I'm struggling for other things to do there and I go twice a year....
Yet when people go to tenerife all they do is sit on a beach eating tuna sandwiches......
junglejim
24-04-2013, 21:27
As if everyone who goes to Blackpool goes to the pleasure beach , sealife centre, Blackpool tower , sandcastle..... Blackpool zoo.... Ice scating.... I'm struggling for other things to do there and I go twice a year....
Yet when people go to tenerife all they do is sit on a beach eating tuna sandwiches......
You forgot Ken Dodd .... but don´t mention the Tax Man !
We are going way off topic .... but, if you are a tax resident here, they do actually charge Wealth Tax on assets (be they based in Spain or abroad) once above a certain threshold, which no doubt will be lowered in the following years :(
And what's the aprox threshold please Doreen?
Yet when people go to tenerife all they do is sit on a beach eating tuna sandwiches......
blimey if thats all they do they can bugger off anyhow
bet it's sainsburys tuna
junglejim
24-04-2013, 21:34
And what's the aprox threshold please Doreen?
You´re well over it Loaded!!
blimey if thats all they do they can bugger off anyhow
bet it's sainsburys tuna
In one breath Nelson and his clientele are single handedly supporting the local economy by spending big bucks, then in the next they just sit on the beach - without even paying for a sunbed no doubt - eating tuna sandwiches rustled up by mrs Nelson.....
And what's the aprox threshold please Doreen?
Above a net 700.000 euros - came back in for 2011 on.
Above a net 700.000 euros - came back in for 2011 on.
Fair to say that most are unaffected by this then..... So far.
You´re well over it Loaded!!
I actually have less than 5 pounds in foreign assets - and even that's just a pint I'm owed by my uncle-in-law....
[QUOTE=Loaded;281791]Other holidays that are cheaper than tenerife;
Skegness
Blackpool
Scarborough
Brighton
Your point is......?[/QUOTE
come off it loaded, I cant speak for the last one on the list but the top three are far more expensive to holiday at than tenerife. Given the usual weather its basically spend , spend spend at the top three to amuse the family. Its not like sitting on the beach in los cristo with a tuna sandwich and a bottle of supersol at 49 cents.
Nothing cheap about uk breaks and holidays.that's why we stopped holidaying in the uk several years ago, we go for weekends now and again and brighton is probably one of the dearest places to have a night out from the list of skeggy, blackpool,and scarb
[QUOTE=nelson;281827]
Behave Nelson the cost of flights alone puts Tenerife up straight away.... There's other things to do in tenerife apart from sit on a beach, Siam park , Loro Parque etc
Yes , and last time in Siam park they took me pop off me on the gate! Apparently water and fruit are allowed but not normal pop.
[QUOTE=nelson;281827]
Behave Nelson the cost of flights alone puts Tenerife up straight away.... There's other things to do in tenerife apart from sit on a beach, Siam park , Loro Parque etcat an average £3.50 a pint and £5 for peroni here in the uk even with the cost of flights the amount that i drink i am still quids in:laugh:
blimey if thats all they do they can bugger off anyhow
bet it's sainsburys tuna
I used to prefer eureka in Los cristo, not seen it for a couple of years, on a different brand now , can't remember the name , I have a couple of tins in my lock up so I will know to buy same next holidays
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
In one breath Nelson and his clientele are single handedly supporting the local economy by spending big bucks, then in the next they just sit on the beach - without even paying for a sunbed no doubt - eating tuna sandwiches rustled up by mrs Nelson.....
Mrs nelson insists on the sunbeds, she won't let me carry me reclining sun chair to the beach, thinks its a show up
Rebelión
25-04-2013, 00:37
I can honestly say that I myself have never taken a tin of tuna to Tenerife.......too much on the baggage allowance for one :cheeky:
... and I do wish Nelson would call Los Cristianos by it's proper name, not Los cristo .....
golf birdie
25-04-2013, 11:05
Wealth Tax Yes, we are a bit off topic but, I asume there is a good chance of the trigger threshold being reduced and the % of tax being increased. I have certainly taken steps to reduce my risks in this department. I think the illegal rental issues have caused me some alarm and I have re-assesed my commitment to invest in the Canaries.
don't forget death tax, if one half of a partnership dies will they come on to the other for tax on their share of declared assets?
canary boy
29-04-2013, 14:48
OMG
Update 25 April: On the day when Spain’s unemployment statistics nationwide were officially announced to have hit a new record high of 27.2%, equating to six million people out of work, Canarian figures themselves were released showing 17,200 more unemployed in the islands during the first quarter of 2013, leading to an awful rate of 34.27% here, a total of 385,600 people out of work. Only Andalusia with 36.87 % and Extremadura with 35.56 % have worse figures throughout Spain.
Between the two Canarian provinces, Las Palmas has 209,100 unemployed, a rate of 35.24%, and Santa Cruz de Tenerife has 176,500, 33.18%. The regional statistics also show that two out of every three people out of work are now officially long-term unemployed: all 243,300 of these have been seeking work for more than a year. They also show that 118,000 households, 15% of the total, now have every single member out of work.
OMG! We've never had it so good in the UK
it doesn't help I sold my apartment to a elderly couple who only go out for six months a year and only go out and spend money in the restaurants and bars once a week
OMG
Update 25 April: On the day when Spain’s unemployment statistics nationwide were officially announced to have hit a new record high of 27.2%, equating to six million people out of work, Canarian figures themselves were released showing 17,200 more unemployed in the islands during the first quarter of 2013, leading to an awful rate of 34.27% here, a total of 385,600 people out of work. Only Andalusia with 36.87 % and Extremadura with 35.56 % have worse figures throughout Spain.
Between the two Canarian provinces, Las Palmas has 209,100 unemployed, a rate of 35.24%, and Santa Cruz de Tenerife has 176,500, 33.18%. The regional statistics also show that two out of every three people out of work are now officially long-term unemployed: all 243,300 of these have been seeking work for more than a year. They also show that 118,000 households, 15% of the total, now have every single member out of work.
OMG! We've never had it so good in the UK
it doesn't help I sold my apartment to a elderly couple who only go out for six months a year and only go out and spend money in the restaurants and bars once a week
Unless you're implying that this is a direct result of the illegal letting crackdown, what exactly does it have to do with this thread ??
Of course these massive unemoyment figures in the canaries are totally relevant to this thread. The crackdown began due to pressure from hotels, fearing a loss of punters to the apartments. Now three years later the holiday home rental market in the canaries has been devasted by the crackdown , owners of apartments have removed their Internet ads.
The point is bob mac , given the reliance of the canary economy on tourism, the crackdown has to have contributed to these terrible unemployment figures. It is not the only problem for the Canarian economy , but it is a very significant and self inflicted problem, engineered by the Canarian govt at a time of economic crisis .
welshman
29-04-2013, 21:16
iF its only 5% I would rather have 5% extra in work and owner paying taxes an bums in restaraunts and bars and bars able to employ. I awaite the comments over to you loaded
iF its only 5% I would rather have 5% extra in work and owner paying taxes an bums in restaraunts and bars and bars able to employ. I awaite the comments over to you loaded
Can't be bothered tonight. Just re-read the whole thread if you're bored.
welshman
29-04-2013, 23:17
Can't be bothered tonight. Just re-read the whole thread if you're bored.
Cant believe you miss a chance to promote sole agent, and 5 star hotels, you loosing your touch !!!
Criusing down to Tenerife to Moz will call in spend couple of euros to help you out pay some igis.
We are on the up no triple dip come on UK all vote UKIP we will not have to bail out Spain again
Cant believe you miss a chance to promote sole agent, and 5 star hotels, you loosing your touch !!!
Criusing down to Tenerife to Moz will call in spend couple of euros to help you out pay some igis.
We are on the up no triple dip come on UK all vote UKIP we will not have to bail out Spain again
Buy yourself a few more 1€ pints, we're doing fine thanks.
Buy yourself a few more 1€ pints, we're doing fine thanks.
I think that means "we, the sole agents" are ok thanks, all the rest are f----!
The Canarians, like the rest of Spain, should have followed EU law, as it is, they're just getting further behind.
Free for all is not good for the client/complex/police/tourism board nor stardards.
Angusjim
30-04-2013, 12:09
Free for all is not good for the client/complex/police/tourism board nor stardards.
Seems to work OK in the electrical industry:whistle:
golf birdie
30-04-2013, 12:10
Free for all is not good for the client/complex/police/tourism board nor stardards.
if that was the case why do so many wish to go independent booking their own stand alone apartment/villa? I sure the clamp down was because so many wished to do so or am I mistaken?
if that was the case why do so many wish to go independent booking their own stand alone apartment/villa? I sure the clamp down was because so many wished to do so or am I mistaken?
Is that a Fact?
I have other information
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Seems to work OK in the electrical industry:whistle:
The electrical sector is governed by one department with regular inspections and tests.
Which is reported back to the Government on each and every new commercial installation, Jim your referral has little to nothing to do with illegal letting.
golf birdie
30-04-2013, 12:49
Is that a Fact?
I have other information
.
so the clamp down was because no one was renting privately :confused:
Undercutting Prices the same as most black market commodities.
Of course these massive unemoyment figures in the canaries are totally relevant to this thread. The crackdown began due to pressure from hotels, fearing a loss of punters to the apartments. Now three years later the holiday home rental market in the canaries has been devasted by the crackdown , owners of apartments have removed their Internet ads.
The point is bob mac , given the reliance of the canary economy on tourism, the crackdown has to have contributed to these terrible unemployment figures. It is not the only problem for the Canarian economy , but it is a very significant and self inflicted problem, engineered by the Canarian govt at a time of economic crisis .
I think you would really have to go some to show that of the 385,600 people unemployed here in the islands more than a few '000 are out of work as a direct result of the diminishing illegal letting industry, especially given that a significant amount of those who were benefitting from illegal cleaning jobs and illegal airport collections/deliveries were doing so illegally in the first place.
The numbers are shocking yes, and are a reflection of the general state of the Spanish economy generally, but are much more a reflection of the out-dated employment laws and inherant closed-shop corruption that not only exists, but is endemic in the culture and way of life of the southern European countries.
With the greatest sympathy to the families affected and suffering hardship because of everything that has gone before, legalising letting in the way that would suit you would, at best, have little or in reality virtually no effect on the numbers.
golf birdie
30-04-2013, 13:04
Undercutting Prices the same as most black market commodities.
maybe in some cases but members of my family pay 400 pounds in an illegal for a one bed out of season and would not dream of staying elsewhere. Its not a question of money for a lot of people its location and comfort. La laguna 2, 400 quid a week, Mirador 500 quid a week, let me think;)
Legal doesn't equal bad location and uncomfortable
Illegal doesn't equal good location and comfortable.
In my experience of holiday letting in the last 16 years in Tenerife. Most of the problems are from the illegal sector.
That's why i back standards and control, the sole agent offers that with a back up of the Law for infringement. (most illegal holiday home renters do not know the Law)
golf birdie
30-04-2013, 13:43
In my experience of holiday letting in the last 16 years in Tenerife. Most of the problems are from the illegal sector.
)
in my experience most of the problems are caused by holiday makers wherever they stay:)
I think that means "we, the sole agents" are ok thanks, all the rest are f----!
The Canarians, like the rest of Spain, should have followed EU law, as it is, they're just getting further behind.
Not at all, the owners who work with us are more than happy
We can not be certain as to the exact numbers in terms of diminished tourist footfall which now, summer 2013, has resulted from the crackdown . Some renters stopped renting completely others have no Internet ads so continue with good winter repeat bookings but now have zero summer customers.
Without question the harm done to the holiday home rental market in the canaries is direct harm to the economy of the Canary Islands . In my view it represents a significant amount of lost tourist footfall and vital tourist spending for the islands. Not the only reason for the massive levels of jobless and hardship in the canaries today , but unquestionably a very significant factor , with serious consequences for the restaurants and bars of the southern resorts .
Don't worry Nelson,the island will survive with or without your illegal,non tax contributing apartments but it's good of you to be so concerned.I am sure the locals would be delighted to know that after years of renting out your two apartments for 40+ weeks of the year whilst addng zilch to the Haciendas collection,you are now losng sleep over the lack of work,children going hungry and people livng on the streets.A few more Nelsons and we would all be going hungry on the streets.Your sheer bl***y hypocrisy knows no bounds.
duncan-6
01-05-2013, 07:59
And he's still at it, despite a big fine.
So we're still talking about "illegal letting"
1. recent cases thrown out of court, " unlicensed agents" who didn't need a licence to offer out touristic lets. Therefore they were not illegal.
2. Apartment owners letting out their apartments directly to tourists. Not allowed to apply for their own licence because they either didn't want to go through an agent or didn't have one. If the authorities didn't have the correct procedure in place for the application, then they are operating outside the law. How can they then prosecute an owner, if a subsequent court case will eventually fail ?
3. Tax. If a uk business agrees a fee with a uk resident, takes the said fee, and then declares that in the uk, the whole transaction taking place in the uk, why would any other country be involved ? Ah yes you say, because the property on which the transaction is related to is in Spain, therefore tax is due there. But the hacienda can hardly raise the tax on something that's not been "legalised", but in any event they already take the "non letting tax". So if the authorities want to raise more revenue, the answers there staring them in the face.
4. As for unregulated, free for all, unlicensed etc, the authorities are able to set laws and as many rules as they like, [B]as long as they are compatible with the laws in the rest of Europe.[B] the EU 2006/123 was brought in for the benefit of consumers. It brings more choice and lower prices. It applies to most business' , not just tourist letting. It's time that the government here got with the program instead of dragging its heels, maybe then they could move forward and make an attempt at getting out of recession.
I suggest a rename of the thread to "illegal letting- not since 2006"
So we're still talking about "illegal letting"
1. recent cases thrown out of court, " unlicensed agents" who didn't need a licence to offer out touristic lets. Therefore they were not illegal.
2. Apartment owners letting out their apartments directly to tourists. Not allowed to apply for their own licence because they either didn't want to go through an agent or didn't have one. If the authorities didn't have the correct procedure in place for the application, then they are operating outside the law. How can they then prosecute an owner, if a subsequent court case will eventually fail ?
4. As for unregulated, free for all, unlicensed etc, the authorities are able to set laws and as many rules as they like, as long as they are compatible with the laws in the rest of Europe. the EU 2006/123 was brought in for the benefit of consumers. It brings more choice and lower prices. It applies to most business' , not just tourist letting. It's time that the government here got with the program instead of dragging its heels, maybe then they could move forward and make an attempt at getting out of recession.
I'm sorry tonym, but there is a whole lot of misinterpretation going on in your post (IMHO of course :) )
About these famous cases - guess what, this issue has been raised in not three, but no less than seven, yes seven, cases in the Canarian Appeal Court ... the earliest I can find goes back to Oct 2010, so hardly recent. And make that eight, if you include the case referring to Tour Guides.
SURFING CLUB AGUILA PLAYA SL
ISLA DEL PARAISO 2000 S.L.
TEIDE 10 S.L
PROMOTAFE SL
Hotel Apartamento Monica Beach - FUERT CAN SL
HOTEL MIRADOR DUNAS SL
comunidad de explotación Club Puerto Mar (21 Oct 2010)
All seven explore the same theme (and interestingly, all heard in Las Palmas) ... authorisacion previa no longer necessary, though following all other regulations (fire systems etc) is necessary, so on the principle of retrospection, the most favourable law will apply in the case of sanctions etc etc.
There has been a major problem in the Eastern Canary Islands of complexes being built without proper permissions (going against the Moratorium, or in some cases having been given licences through corruption of local officials) and that is how many of these cases have arisen. It is these complexes that might be able to avail of the two year period of grace to bring their businesses up to standard.
So we're still talking about "illegal letting"
1. recent cases thrown out of court, " unlicensed agents" who didn't need a licence to offer out touristic lets. Therefore they were not illegal.
2. Apartment owners letting out their apartments directly to tourists. Not allowed to apply for their own licence because they either didn't want to go through an agent or didn't have one. If the authorities didn't have the correct procedure in place for the application, then they are operating outside the law. How can they then prosecute an owner, if a subsequent court case will eventually fail ?
3. Tax. If a uk business agrees a fee with a uk resident, takes the said fee, and then declares that in the uk, the whole transaction taking place in the uk, why would any other country be involved ? Ah yes you say, because the property on which the transaction is related to is in Spain, therefore tax is due there. But the hacienda can hardly raise the tax on something that's not been "legalised", but in any event they already take the "non letting tax". So if the authorities want to raise more revenue, the answers there staring them in the face.
4. As for unregulated, free for all, unlicensed etc, the authorities are able to set laws and as many rules as they like, as long as they are compatible with the laws in the rest of Europe.[B] [B]the EU 2006/123 was brought in for the benefit of consumers. It brings more choice and lower prices. It applies to most business' , not just tourist letting. It's time that the government here got with the program instead of dragging its heels, maybe then they could move forward and make an attempt at getting out of recession.
I suggest a rename of the thread to "illegal letting- not since 2006"
I see you are quoting the Bolkenstein Directive.
As far as I can see from reading that, it is only relevant to an existing business in one EU member state wishing to start trading in another EU state and appears to be specifically targeted to enable BUSINESSES to trade in other EU states, not private individuals. It also specifically states that any business doing so must comply with the local laws of the country they wish to start trading in.
Therefore a private individual wishing to holiday let their property in the Canaries would need to set up a business to do it. This would require you to have Public Liability Insurance and all the other necessary protection in place to cover your customers.
The BD also states clearly that a member state CAN implement local laws to protect what they regard as VITAL SERVICES (such as Tourism, etc.) for their economy.
So, summing up then. tonym #MassiveFail
Thank god Doreen can still be bothered to get her "stupid stick" out .....
We can not be certain as to the exact numbers in terms of diminished tourist footfall which now, summer 2013, has resulted from the crackdown . Some renters stopped renting completely others have no Internet ads so continue with good winter repeat bookings but now have zero summer customers.
Without question the harm done to the holiday home rental market in the canaries is direct harm to the economy of the Canary Islands . In my view it represents a significant amount of lost tourist footfall and vital tourist spending for the islands. Not the only reason for the massive levels of jobless and hardship in the canaries today , but unquestionably a very significant factor , with serious consequences for the restaurants and bars of the southern resorts .
Absolute b****cks! The practice of any illegal business ADDS to unemployment. If 100 letting agents, cleaners, gardeners, etc, working in black, are servicing illegal apartment lets, then that's 100 legal employees somewhere who will be displaced and lose their jobs. THAT is one of the reasons why the economy is suffering.
I personally believe that anyone undercutting any business by working illegally should have their assets embargoed to pay compensation to their counterparts who have been paying their taxes.
We can't criticize the government for fiddling if we do the same.
always funny on here when people dont grasp the pay your tax in another country situation, as is the norm eu wide. with cross border companies it is entirely up to them as to which eu country they domicile their tax arrangements in.
The people on here who want to deny that the crackdown is a significant cause of the canaries economic woes are wrong. No one can imagine that in 2013, it would be viable for a tourist based economy to wipe off the internet thousands of popular holiday homes, and that the result would not be damaging to the economy and jobs. We live in an age where e commerce is becoming ever more popular , for the canary govt to fight against this trend and their holiday home market was senseless and self destructive in the extreme.
Their only incorrect logic to do this mad policy could be that in attacking the holiday homes they would be helping the hotels, a simply trade off of the curtailed apartment customers into the hotels, with no overall loss of footfall. Many of us know that to have been a crazy plan with no hope of sucess.
Those in govt who started this policy need to be taken to task, their policy was fatally flawed , they had no legitamate reason to set this crazy damaging action as govt policy. The canary /madrid need to begin a judical investigation into the canary govt/turismo odd damaging and protectionist actions, those at the top need to be held responsible and made to answer for what they have done and why they have done it.
The canarian population deserve to see their govt held accountable for the harm they are doing to the island s economy.
always funny on here when people dont grasp the pay your tax in another country situation, as is the norm eu wide. with cross border companies it is entirely up to them as to which eu country they domicile their tax arrangements in.
The only tax crossover between EU states occurs when you sell a physical product or provide an exportable service (ie, specialized consultant) to another member Country; the VAT is not applied to the transaction if both parties have their VAT numbers registered with the EU database. That is all. If you operate a permanent business within any member state, you must abide by all local regulations, set up and register there, and pay any taxes to the member state.
not sure what you mean there, its normal for europeon companies to trade throughout europe from a single country and account for tax in just one country.
Think your error is the ingic/ vat issue. Agents have to charge that either in uk or canaries, as would a hotel. But a private individual renting out their holiday home would not even be part of the vat system, there is no vat on holiday home renting or indeed any rented residential property in the uk. The landlord would have to pay tax on his profits , earnings less taxable expenses, but there is no vat to be added to the rent when renting out the property.
Of course the sensible way to get some valuble tax revenue for the canaries from their holiday home renting industry is to do as they do in portugal and charge the renters an annual permit fee. Then there is no need to haggle about earnings/profits and there is a good income raised for the canary govt.
The lack of proper tax contribution at the moment from the holiday letting sector in the canaries could easily be put right.
I'm sorry tonym, but there is a whole lot of misinterpretation going on in your post (IMHO of course :) )
About these famous cases - guess what, this issue has been raised in not three, but no less than seven, yes seven, cases in the Canarian Appeal Court ... the earliest I can find goes back to Oct 2010, so hardly recent. And make that eight, if you include the case referring to Tour Guides.
SURFING CLUB AGUILA PLAYA SL
ISLA DEL PARAISO 2000 S.L.
TEIDE 10 S.L
PROMOTAFE SL
Hotel Apartamento Monica Beach - FUERT CAN SL
HOTEL MIRADOR DUNAS SL
comunidad de explotación Club Puerto Mar (21 Oct 2010)
All seven explore the same theme (and interestingly, all heard in Las Palmas) ... authorisacion previa no longer necessary, though following all other regulations (fire systems etc) is necessary, so on the principle of retrospection, the most favourable law will apply in the case of sanctions etc etc.
There has been a major problem in the Eastern Canary Islands of complexes being built without proper permissions (going against the Moratorium, or in some cases having been given licences through corruption of local officials) and that is how many of these cases have arisen. It is these complexes that might be able to avail of the two year period of grace to bring their businesses up to standard.
Perhaps we are talking about different court cases, or maybe I didn´t make my point very well, I´ll try again.
the high court threw out the case against the letting agents last February who were presumably advertising "illegal accommodation". You would assume that they had been fined and appealed, and that the authorities thought that the agents were operating outside canarian law, and therefore brought the case to court. Case dismissed due to the EU law, BD it was said, they didnt need authorisation or licence to let out these properties. The same law covers many other issues relating to providing services, by SME´s. (small, medium entities, which also includes individuals, acting in business).
So, if the authorities were wrong to charge these SME´s under the BD, why do you imagine the rest of the BD does not apply ?
Bobmac.
I suggest you read the BD again.
"As far as I can see from reading that, it is only relevant to an existing business in one EU member state wishing to start trading in another EU state and appears to be specifically targeted to enable BUSINESSES to trade in other EU states, not private individuals."
So you believe that the country I live in prevents me from starting a business, but someone from a different EU country could come in and do exactly that ? doesn't make sense. also any individual or natural person belonging to a member state can start an enterprise and choose the form in which they trade.
"It also specifically states that any business doing so must comply with the local laws of the country they wish to start trading in.
Therefore a private individual wishing to holiday let their property in the Canaries would need to set up a business to do it. This would require you to have Public Liability Insurance and all the other necessary protection in place to cover your customers."
Comply with local law ? just so long as they are compatible with EU law. Insurance, cheap as chips, Fire extinguisher, pop along to the local ferrateria.
"The BD also states clearly that a member state CAN implement local laws to protect what they regard as VITAL SERVICES (such as Tourism, etc.) for their economy. "
Absolutely not, if you can find that within the text, name that tune. ( or article in this case.)
blimey tony you sound more and more like John the solicitor with every post you write on this thread
not sure what you mean there, its normal for europeon companies to trade throughout europe from a single country and account for tax in just one country.
Think your error is the ingic/ vat issue. Agents have to charge that either in uk or canaries, as would a hotel. But a private individual renting out their holiday home would not even be part of the vat system, there is no vat on holiday home renting or indeed any rented residential property in the uk. The landlord would have to pay tax on his profits , earnings less taxable expenses, but there is no vat to be added to the rent when renting out the property.
Of course the sensible way to get some valuble tax revenue for the canaries from their holiday home renting industry is to do as they do in portugal and charge the renters an annual permit fee. Then there is no need to haggle about earnings/profits and there is a good income raised for the canary govt.
The lack of proper tax contribution at the moment from the holiday letting sector in the canaries could easily be put right.
No I am not mistaken, I only pointed out that the only tax crossover between EU states is VAT, where it would be normally applied. Here's an example where the EU "free trading" agreement would work; I open a computer wholesale shop, and have my only EU office in Barcelona. I can sell to other EU companies, outside of Spain, and if they have registered their VAT number with the EU then I don't charge them IVA and they pay it unilaterally when they submit their quarterly return.
Corporate tax (or tax based on turnover or profit, whatever state you are based in) must always be paid into the state where the economic activity takes place. For example in Italy, corporate tax is a whopping 60%. If the manufacturing giants in Milan could simply open a small office in Madrid, and then pay all of their EU tax in Spain at the lower 35% then they would, and save millions each month. They don't because they can't.
Even within Spain, I recently helped to set up offices for a multinational, and they had just one SL company in Spain, but still had to register at the tax office of each and every autonomous community where they had sub-offices, and have to pay their tax in each region.
So I repeat there is NO WAY which any current EU law allows for a company to operate with physical presence (ie, real estate, staff, offices) in various EU states and only pay in one.
On another note, the letting laws are soon to be applied nationally.
http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2013/05/01/actualidad/1367435704_409018.html
I should have a word with your adviser if I was you nelson
Angusjim
02-05-2013, 12:48
No I am not mistaken, I only pointed out that the only tax crossover between EU states is VAT, where it would be normally applied. Here's an example where the EU "free trading" agreement would work; I open a computer wholesale shop, and have my only EU office in Barcelona. I can sell to other EU companies, outside of Spain, and if they have registered their VAT number with the EU then I don't charge them IVA and they pay it unilaterally when they submit their quarterly return.
Corporate tax (or tax based on turnover or profit, whatever state you are based in) must always be paid into the state where the economic activity takes place. For example in Italy, corporate tax is a whopping 60%. If the manufacturing giants in Milan could simply open a small office in Madrid, and then pay all of their EU tax in Spain at the lower 35% then they would, and save millions each month. They don't because they can't.
Even within Spain, I recently helped to set up offices for a multinational, and they had just one SL company in Spain, but still had to register at the tax office of each and every autonomous community where they had sub-offices, and have to pay their tax in each region.
So I repeat there is NO WAY which any current EU law allows for a company to operate with physical presence (ie, real estate, staff, offices) in various EU states and only pay in one.
On another note, the letting laws are soon to be applied nationally.
http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2013/05/01/actualidad/1367435704_409018.html
Must be possible not to pay corporate tax in the country that it is earned in as there are numerous high profile companies that pay no corporation tax or very little in the UK EG Starbocks and we are part of the EU !
Must be possible not to pay corporate tax in the country that it is earned in as there are numerous high profile companies that pay no corporation tax or very little in the UK EG Starbocks and we are part of the EU !
This is only possible if the government of the particular country offer a specific tax concession to a multinational as an incentive for them to invest in that country. For example, if Google wanted to open an office in Tenerife, and signed an agreement that they would invest 12 million and employ 8,000 staff, they could probably negotiate a lower tax or full exemption for the first three years. But by default (there are some exceptions; airlines, haulage, etc), corporate tax must always be paid within each member EU state where a physical commercial presence is considered.
Angusjim
02-05-2013, 13:40
This is only possible if the government of the particular country offer a specific tax concession to a multinational as an incentive for them to invest in that country. For example, if Google wanted to open an office in Tenerife, and signed an agreement that they would invest 12 million and employ 8,000 staff, they could probably negotiate a lower tax or full exemption for the first three years. But by default (there are some exceptions; airlines, haulage, etc), corporate tax must always be paid within each member EU state where a physical commercial presence is considered.
Not what it says about Amazon & Starbucks !! I wish tax laws were as simple as you think they are I would bin my accountants tomorrow :laugh: Anyway sorry off topic:ashamed:
STARBUCKS
Despite a public backlash and a climbdown by offering to pay £20million to the taxman, Starbucks insists its UK operations are loss-making.
The company has not paid corporation tax in the UK in the last three years – and has only contributed £8.6million over the course of its 15 years in Britain.
It has only made a profit once in the period, despite racking up almost £3billion in sales.
The company was slammed by MPs for paying royalties to the Netherlands, and buying its coffee in Switzerland. It also takes out inter-company loans, charged at high interest payments.
All three techniques see money from British coffee drinkers flow overseas. But the company claims that even without these it would still be losing money because it overpaid on lots of its store leases during its aggressive expansion programme in 2000.
Critics said its decision to pay £10million over two years to the taxman was a ‘token gesture’.
THE UGLY
AMAZON
Slammed as shady and evasive, Amazon’s representative to the Public Accounts Committee did the group’s tarnished image no favours.
The firm was desperate to keep secret its profit figures in the UK, but was forced to disclose the details to MPs. It emerged it made £74million in pre-tax profit in 2011, a figure never before released, but paid just £1.8million to the taxman – a rate of just 2.4 per cent.
It made sales of £3.35billion from its UK operations but the money is passed over to Luxembourg. It admitted to using the tiny state as a base for its European operations due to the favourable tax rate.
It tried to claim Luxembourg, where it employs 500 people, is the real ‘engine’ of the business, rather than the UK, where it employs 15,000.
The UK is registered as a service arm even though many of its distribution facilities – and customers – are located here
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2256860/Corporate-tax-avoidance-2013-following-Starbucks-scandal-paying-fair-dues.html#ixzz2S8cKKdcP
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Not what it says about Amazon & Starbucks !! I wish tax laws were as simple as you think they are I would bin my accountants tomorrow :laugh: Anyway sorry off topic:ashamed:
STARBUCKS
Despite a public backlash and a climbdown by offering to pay £20million to the taxman, Starbucks insists its UK operations are loss-making.
The company has not paid corporation tax in the UK in the last three years – and has only contributed £8.6million over the course of its 15 years in Britain.
It has only made a profit once in the period, despite racking up almost £3billion in sales.
The company was slammed by MPs for paying royalties to the Netherlands, and buying its coffee in Switzerland. It also takes out inter-company loans, charged at high interest payments.
All three techniques see money from British coffee drinkers flow overseas. But the company claims that even without these it would still be losing money because it overpaid on lots of its store leases during its aggressive expansion programme in 2000.
Critics said its decision to pay £10million over two years to the taxman was a ‘token gesture’.
THE UGLY
AMAZON
Slammed as shady and evasive, Amazon’s representative to the Public Accounts Committee did the group’s tarnished image no favours.
The firm was desperate to keep secret its profit figures in the UK, but was forced to disclose the details to MPs. It emerged it made £74million in pre-tax profit in 2011, a figure never before released, but paid just £1.8million to the taxman – a rate of just 2.4 per cent.
It made sales of £3.35billion from its UK operations but the money is passed over to Luxembourg. It admitted to using the tiny state as a base for its European operations due to the favourable tax rate.
It tried to claim Luxembourg, where it employs 500 people, is the real ‘engine’ of the business, rather than the UK, where it employs 15,000.
The UK is registered as a service arm even though many of its distribution facilities – and customers – are located here
Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2256860/Corporate-tax-avoidance-2013-following-Starbucks-scandal-paying-fair-dues.html#ixzz2S8cKKdcP
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
But companies like this are evading tax (just like nelson), and are constantly being fined for doing so. This doesn't say that someone can operate in two countries and only pay tax in one of them; it just says that some multinationals hide profits and don't declare what they should do.
If you are referring to the CCCTB, that has yet to be implemented, and probably won't be.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Consolidated_Corporate_Tax_Base
Angusjim
02-05-2013, 14:09
But companies like this are evading tax (just like nelson), and are constantly being fined for doing so. This doesn't say that someone can operate in two countries and only pay tax in one of them; it just says that some multinationals hide profits and don't declare what they should do.
Avoidance not evasion legally they have done nothing wrong otherwise the revenue would recover the tax and some more. We were offered 2 completly legal deals not to pay or greatly reduce corporation tax this year one involved investing in the British film industry & one investing in a German Hotel granted eventually we would have to pay some tax but much much reduced but we decided not to take these up as I personally do not agree with these schemes. There are a lot of clever accountants out there that are much smarter than the revenue in any country. Any way definately my last comment about this on this thread :spin:
Fivepence
02-05-2013, 15:34
Spain is definitely discriminating against other EU nationals, in particular UK nationals.
Maybe slightly off topic (sorry) but still relevant to this thread.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2317127/Expats-head-home-Spain-forced-declare-overseas-assets.html?ito=newsletter
This isn´t bad news it's great news.
Spain is definitely discriminating against other EU nationals, in particular UK nationals.
Maybe slightly off topic (sorry) but still relevant to this thread.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2317127/Expats-head-home-Spain-forced-declare-overseas-assets.html?ito=newsletter
If you believe that the Spanish tax office is not as hard or even harder on its own nationals, then you are mistaken.
Albatros
02-05-2013, 17:53
Large corporations negotiate with the taxman. An option that isn't open to us mere mortals. They agree a notional profit for tax purposes.
They can move costs around different countries and hence profits. Thus putting lots of costs on their UK books reduces the apparent profit. Tax is therefore minimal if not zero. The profits show up somewhere else. In a low tax country of course.
I'll let you decide if its avoidance or evasion.
Perhaps we are talking about different court cases, or maybe I didn´t make my point very well, I´ll try again.
the high court threw out the case against the letting agents last February who were presumably advertising "illegal accommodation". You would assume that they had been fined and appealed, and that the authorities thought that the agents were operating outside canarian law, and therefore brought the case to court. Case dismissed due to the EU law, BD it was said, they didnt need authorisation or licence to let out these properties. The same law covers many other issues relating to providing services, by SME´s. (small, medium entities, which also includes individuals, acting in business).
So, if the authorities were wrong to charge these SME´s under the BD, why do you imagine the rest of the BD does not apply ?
Perhaps the problem is the source of your information, tonym :) Just where are these three cases from February - not those mentioned by Tenerife Solicitors by any chance ? When said TFSolicitors went on to justify his original article, he quoted three cases - two are in my list of seven (I know one was Surfing Club Playa, the other was Teide 10, I think - sorry, but I'm not going to go all the way back to be 100% sure) ... and the third he mentioned was concerning Tour Guides and their challenge to a 2010 decree brought in to regulate the provision of Tour Guide Services)
I took it upon myself to search for reported decisions in the TSJ Canarias (Canarian Court of Appeal) where the 2009 Tourism law (amending the 1995 law) was mentioned ... and found that the same argument used in TFSolicitors' quoted cases was actually used as far back as October 2010, so nothing radically new happened in February .... well, except perhaps that there was an article published mentioning "three cases" that seems to have triggered TFSolicitors' interest.
These are some of the "agents" whose fines were quashed http://www.sunrisebeachhotels.com/?idsubcat=51567&idcat=51560&idmap=124&lang=en (the Fuert Can SL case). Remember these fines were issued in 2008: no appeal of the current round of fines will reach the TSJC before 2014 at the very earliest.
Perhaps the most important link of late is that by TF1 http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2013/05/01/actualidad/1367435704_409018.html
Check it out - do you really think appealing to EU law will allow these unregulated properties (estimated to be close to 1.5 million) continue to trade in the black economy ?
Holiday home renting is normal and completely uncontroversial the world over. The way you talk about it being an unregulated black market is well wide of the mark. The bizzare canary approach is to compell private owners to collectively submit their individual holiday home to a sole agent overlord, for him to organise the mass renting of the lot like some converluted hotel , complete with hotel ad ons , reception etc.
I ask you Doreen , do you think that this odd unnatural interventionist approach will continue for very much longer?
Holiday home renting is normal and completely uncontroversial the world over. The way you talk about it being an unregulated black market is well wide of the mark. The bizzare canary approach is to compell private owners to collectively submit their individual holiday home to a sole agent overlord, for him to organise the mass renting of the lot like some converluted hotel , complete with hotel ad ons , reception etc.
I ask you Doreen , do you think that this odd unnatural interventionist approach will continue for very much longer?
You obviously haven't read the link to the El Pais article, nelson!
As for the Sole Agent system, nothing that we have heard from Turismo mentions any change :)
You obviously haven't read the link to the El Pais article, nelson!
As for the Sole Agent system, nothing that we have heard from Turismo mentions any change :)
Nelson doesn't read links remember?
Holiday home renting is normal and completely uncontroversial the world over. The way you talk about it being an unregulated black market is well wide of the mark. The bizzare canary approach is to compell private owners to collectively submit their individual holiday home to a sole agent overlord, for him to organise the mass renting of the lot like some converluted hotel , complete with hotel ad ons , reception etc.
I ask you Doreen , do you think that this odd unnatural interventionist approach will continue for very much longer?
Seems to me that the answer to your question is yes, and other areas are not far behind in introducing their own versions of legislation to control the tourism market.
The days of holiday home owners pocketing undeclared cash and posting keys around the world would seem to be numbered, and whilst holiday home rental may be normal to you at the moment, primarily because your under-counter method of doing it is paying your mortgages whilst contributing nothing directly to the country you are exploiting, it won't be long before your claims of normality become less vocal.
One reason there is a compulsion to let holiday property out via an appointed agent is to protect the tourist against unscrupulous landlords, of which there are plenty, and to ensure that taxes are paid where appropriate and required as opposed to your preferred route of black marketeering.
Perhaps the problem is the source of your information, tonym :) Just where are these three cases from February - not those mentioned by Tenerife Solicitors by any chance ? When said TFSolicitors went on to justify his original article, he quoted three cases - two are in my list of seven (I know one was Surfing Club Playa, the other was Teide 10, I think - sorry, but I'm not going to go all the way back to be 100% sure) ... and the third he mentioned was concerning Tour Guides and their challenge to a 2010 decree brought in to regulate the provision of Tour Guide Services)
Perhaps the most important link of late is that by TF1 http://sociedad.elpais.com/sociedad/2013/05/01/actualidad/1367435704_409018.html
Check it out - do you really think appealing to EU law will allow these unregulated properties (estimated to be close to 1.5 million) continue to trade in the black economy ?
Yes those were the cases, and John Hatricks article explaining the rulings and the reasons for the prosecutions failing were quite detailed. I have been unable to locate the article on this thread, however this is a link to the Island Connections page[URL="http://http://pdf.islandconnections.eu/692/pdf/island_connections_038.pdf"] has it.
It also describes the recommendations from the judge in relation as to what the authority needs to do in order to comply with the BD.
You would take from that the authorities are NOT complying at the moment and therefore HAVE to make changes in order to comply with EU law and be legal.
The authorities can do whatever they like, it doesn't change the FACT that they are still operating their laws which do not comply with EU law since 2006, IMO that´s illegal, and also anyone fined under these conditions have an excellent defence.
If the authorities want to prevent private rentals, then so be it, but firstly amend the laws to be compatible with the rest of Europe, and publicise to all to ensure everyone is aware.
duncan-6
03-05-2013, 08:19
And you are STILL at it, aren't you Nelliekins.....hola senor Nelson, my name is Inspector Gonzalez...
Yes those were the cases, and John Hatricks article explaining the rulings and the reasons for the prosecutions failing were quite detailed. I have been unable to locate the article on this thread, however this is a link to the Island Connections page[URL="http://http://pdf.islandconnections.eu/692/pdf/island_connections_038.pdf"] has it.
It also describes the recommendations from the judge in relation as to what the authority needs to do in order to comply with the BD.
You would take from that the authorities are NOT complying at the moment and therefore HAVE to make changes in order to comply with EU law and be legal.
The authorities can do whatever they like, it doesn't change the FACT that they are still operating their laws which do not comply with EU law since 2006, IMO that´s illegal, and also anyone fined under these conditions have an excellent defence.
If the authorities want to prevent private rentals, then so be it, but firstly amend the laws to be compatible with the rest of Europe, and publicise to all to ensure everyone is aware.
The articles that were about 3 private owners in his first article .... And then changed to 3 companies in the second article ? Those ones yeah?
Fivepence
03-05-2013, 09:36
Yes those were the cases, and John Hatricks article explaining the rulings and the reasons for the prosecutions failing were quite detailed. I have been unable to locate the article on this thread, however this is a link to the Island Connections page[URL="http://http://pdf.islandconnections.eu/692/pdf/island_connections_038.pdf"] has it.
It also describes the recommendations from the judge in relation as to what the authority needs to do in order to comply with the BD.
You would take from that the authorities are NOT complying at the moment and therefore HAVE to make changes in order to comply with EU law and be legal.
The authorities can do whatever they like, it doesn't change the FACT that they are still operating their laws which do not comply with EU law since 2006, IMO that´s illegal, and also anyone fined under these conditions have an excellent defence.
If the authorities want to prevent private rentals, then so be it, but firstly amend the laws to be compatible with the rest of Europe, and publicise to all to ensure everyone is aware.
Do you own and did/do you rent on the Island Tony?
This thread is mainly populated by the Sole Agents, arguing the case for sole agents and the owners who self rent and have been fined, arguing against the imposition of the Sole Agent system.
I do not own property on the Island and count myself as a law abiding person.
However, there are good laws and bad laws.
On balance I think this law is a bad law.
The authorities should be able to create a system that ensures owners can rent their own property, be registered to do so along with annual proof of safety and tax compliance. Some owners will be happy to use an agent and if that is they choice....fine.
bonitatime
03-05-2013, 09:43
Nether the less it is the law
Interesting article in today's La Opinon
Rajoy is encouraging the Cabildis to re-legalise the units that have fallen from tourist to no tourist but to control the rest so there is no illegal letting
Holiday home renting is normal and completely uncontroversial the world over. The way you talk about it being an unregulated black market is well wide of the mark. The bizzare canary approach is to compell private owners to collectively submit their individual holiday home to a sole agent overlord, for him to organise the mass renting of the lot like some converluted hotel , complete with hotel ad ons , reception etc.
I ask you Doreen , do you think that this odd unnatural interventionist approach will continue for very much longer?
Every business activity can be said to be normal the world over. If you have the correct paperwork and pay your taxes.
OK, here's the situation in easy to understand terms. When this law was introduced and passed, it was published in a public bolletin. If anyone was not in favor of the law, they would have had a time limit (usually 14 days) to challenge the law. So, unless the law fully contradicts rigid EU laws (ie, the horizontal land grab saga in Valencia), nobody can appeal against the law at this stage. From my understanding, the revised laws which are about to be applied throughout Spain are not contradictory to EU laws, but only mildly infringe upon some EU guidelines, hence any appeal against any fine would probably fail in a Spanish court, and the EU would not intervene.
Regarding the notion that "I pay tax in the UK so I don't have to pay tax on my earnings in Spain", NO! There is a PROPOSAL from the EU regarding a singular corporate tax, but it has not been ratified and certainly won't be applied within the next 15 years. If you have a business in Spain, you have to register and pay tax in Spain. There is no other way, nor should there be.
This is happening, whether anyone likes it or not. The state will regulate the sector, and it will make sure that it gets revenue through taxes and fines.
Adapt or throw in the towel.
Fivepence
03-05-2013, 10:00
Nether the less it is the law
Interesting article in today's La Opinon
Rajoy is encouraging the Cabildis to re-legalise the units that have fallen from tourist to no tourist but to control the rest so there is no illegal letting
I do not question the fact that it is the law bonitime.
However, I do question whether it is a good, fair, well thought out law.
In post #6823, I posted the following: -
'In 1988 the UK Government passed the law to introduce the Community Charge (Poll Tax).
It was implemented in Scotland in 1989 and the following year in England (1990) ....................the rest is history, we all know what happened next.
Just to jog your memory.........it was repealed after 2 years and replaced by Council Tax because it was a disaster.'
The point is that bad laws rarely survive.
Angusjim
03-05-2013, 10:20
Nether the less it is the law
Interesting article in today's La Opinon
Rajoy is encouraging the Cabildis to re-legalise the units that have fallen from tourist to no tourist but to control the rest so there is no illegal letting
But is it a good law that will help or hinder the Economy why don't they get their finger out and finalise exactly what is happening, there must be many people like myself who are potential buyers that will not touch property in Tenerife with a barge pole at the moment due to the uncertainty.:(
But is it a good law that will help or hinder the Economy why don't they get their finger out and finalise exactly what is happening, there must be many people like myself who are potential buyers that will not touch property in Tenerife with a barge pole at the moment due to the uncertainty.:(
Putting your own capitalism to one side, have you considered the consequences of owning a property and letting it without any control or liability insurance (which you cannot get without a Spanish company)? What if someone was to become seriously injured due to faulty wiring, for example? Who would pay for their medical treatment? Would you be willing to pay hundreds of thousands in compensation? Or would you expect the taxes which others have paid to pick up your tab?
Have you considered that people investing in property just to speculate have inflated the property prices out of the reach of many residents who simply want an affordable home to live in? I am PRAYING that property prices will drop to realistic values once more! That will not damage the economy. So some speculators might lose out? I won't lose any sleep.
And have you considered that recovering 1.5 billion per year in lost tax revenue due to private rentals might just help the economy?
You might or might not agree with the new law, but who in their right mind would think that no corresponding law should be in place, except someone only interested in making black money?
___mm_('-_-')_mm___
Private renter was ere!
The articles that were about 3 private owners in his first article .... And then changed to 3 companies in the second article ? Those ones yeah?
Yeah, ................and so ?.........................your point is ?
golf birdie
03-05-2013, 11:27
Have you considered that people investing in property just to speculate have inflated the property prices out of the reach of many residents who simply want an affordable home to live in? I am PRAYING that property prices will drop to realistic values once more! That will not damage the economy. So some speculators might lose out? I won't lose any sleep.
Tenerife was built on speculators money, without it it would still be a barren rock. Now you want them to sod off and take their money with them?
Angusjim
03-05-2013, 11:32
Putting your own capitalism to one side, have you considered the consequences of owning a property and letting it without any control or liability insurance (which you cannot get without a Spanish company)? What if someone was to become seriously injured due to faulty wiring, for example? Who would pay for their medical treatment? Would you be willing to pay hundreds of thousands in compensation? Or would you expect the taxes which others have paid to pick up your tab?
Have you considered that people investing in property just to speculate have inflated the property prices out of the reach of many residents who simply want an affordable home to live in? I am PRAYING that property prices will drop to realistic values once more! That will not damage the economy. So some speculators might lose out? I won't lose any sleep.
And have you considered that recovering 1.5 billion per year in lost tax revenue due to private rentals might just help the economy?
You might or might not agree with the new law, but who in their right mind would think that no corresponding law should be in place, except someone only interested in making black money?
Did I mentioned anywhere that I was considering buying to rent ? all i am saying is that with all the uncertainty about property at the moment I would not put one euro into Tenerife in the form of buying property. Is the sole agent the only way to legalise the market maybe Nelson's suggestion about licences for all may work who knows only time will tell. As for tax evasion perhaps the owners were just embracing the local culture & traditions;)
If you are not renting out Jim whats stopping you from buying?
Tenerife was built on speculators money, without it it would still be a barren rock. Now you want them to sod off and take their money with them?
si senor, Los Russos tienen mucho mas dinero.
golf birdie
03-05-2013, 11:48
If you are not renting out Jim whats stopping you from buying?
If he was to consider buying on a tourist complex with the option to live there, I for one would be very careful before buying.
In fact with all these asset reporting laws i would be wary of putting roots down here at all at the moment.
Angusjim
03-05-2013, 11:54
If you are not renting out Jim whats stopping you from buying?
Mark as I have said its the uncertainty about exactly what is going to happen, for example on touristic complexes to owners who do not want to rent out, the viability of complexes due to many empty proprties, repossesions etc, are they going to sting absentee owners with all sorts of " new taxes / charges" they need to sort this mess out, to date plenty talk but no hard info on exactly how it is all to work. Also in my opion till some clear guidance is given property prices will continue to plummet, whilst the market continues to drop in Spain the UK market is starting to recover all be it a long way to go partly because the government are trying to help whist in the Canaries they seem clueless on how to act.
Yeah, ................and so ?.........................your point is ?
You really trust what someone says when they can't even get the meat and gravy of their argument right?
junglejim
03-05-2013, 12:15
9+ , according to some of the speculation on here , if you have bought on a complex in the past and do not rent but merely want to use it as a second home or holiday retreat, you may be forced to give your investment over to a sole agent who will use it for his gain at your expense and lose control of its use by you.
Even if you have purchased it as an income stream , you may have been , at least , misinformed or , at worst , lied to by the estate agent or abogado aft er a quick buck.
Whichever case above applies and the latest push on tax liabilities are going to make investors and dreamers very wary of where they commit their hard earned money to!
The recent fiasco in Cyprus will have alerted anyone , even the Russian Oligarcs , to investing in tinpot bureaurocracies that change their policies with their underwear .
I have no great love for tax evasion , but the biggest issue in the Spanish ( and some others) economy is their black money systems used by many on this Island in particular - cash is always king in any economy but the level it goes to here is a major issue in their downfall .
No sensible person would seriously consider investing in these Islands at the moment - shades of Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns !
Tenerife was built on speculators money, without it it would still be a barren rock. Now you want them to sod off and take their money with them?
I just love people who learned all about Tenerife's history in some English bar .....
junglejim
03-05-2013, 12:27
I just love people who learned all about Tenerife's history in some English bar .....
So what history is that TF1 ? The Island has been exploited by English, Spanish and all sorts since it was discovered , just nowadays it is a different breed of people that are stripping it's carcass bare !
So what history is that TF1 ? The Island has been exploited by English, Spanish and all sorts since it was discovered , just nowadays it is a different breed of people that are stripping it's carcass bare !
Tenerife has a history just as any other Country, also a pre-mass tourism history and culture. I'm so tired of hearing poorly educated ex-pats claiming that "without the British / Timeshare / Property Sharks, the locals would be living in caves picking bananas". The term arrogant imperialism comes to mind.
Other tourist areas in the world and in Spain have done very well without heavyweight unsustainable capitalism. I'm sure Tenerife could have as well.
golf birdie
03-05-2013, 12:51
I just love people who learned all about Tenerife's history in some English bar .....
I await for you to enlighten me to where the money came from. Maybe you could ask the fairies at the bottom of your garden.
I await for you to enlighten me to where the money came from. Maybe you could ask the fairies at the bottom of your garden.
Who's money??????
we can't move on until all of those people that invested their money in Tenerife 35 years die.
Angusjim
03-05-2013, 16:14
we can't move on until all of those people that invested their money in Tenerife 35 years die.
Correct !! only then can the tree hugging, sandle wearing, newbie Ex Pats ( but only those who know the whistling language & can pass exams in Tenerife history) can take over the reigns:laugh:
we can't move on until all of those people that invested their money in Tenerife 35 years die.
They've had their money back many times over, and most of it has since left the island. Unfortunately 9Plus, some those who are still alive confuse the difference between investing in Tenerife and buying Tenerife.
junglejim
03-05-2013, 16:31
So that´s why they have serious mass unemployment ,because they have done very well ?
Take a sail round the Carribbean Islands and walk about a mile or even less from the Cruise Ship area and see the abject poverty and squalour the locals live in - try walking outside you AI resort in Jamaica ,or Mexico and see how long you last - don´t forget the flophouses and child abuse in Thailand .
Yes Tenerife had a history and mixed culture but they decided to sell it out to Tourism for a better standard of living , unfortunately some of their own got greedy and want it for themselves rather than for the general population .
Pray tell what indigenous industry would they have without tourism ? When the Oil Companies come along , they will be suckered again!
What is your point here ? Tenerife made it on bad money so it's got to keep taking it?
junglejim
03-05-2013, 17:14
What is your point here ? Tenerife made it on bad money so it's got to keep taking it?
"Other tourist areas in the world and in Spain have done very well without heavyweight unsustainable capitalism. I'm sure Tenerife could have as well. "
My point , Loaded,is only certain people have benefited from Tourism whether it be here or elswhere - the present proposals would seem to keep the status quo .
So that´s why they have serious mass unemployment ,because they have done very well ?
Take a sail round the Carribbean Islands and walk about a mile or even less from the Cruise Ship area and see the abject poverty and squalour the locals live in - try walking outside you AI resort in Jamaica ,or Mexico and see how long you last - don´t forget the flophouses and child abuse in Thailand .
Yes Tenerife had a history and mixed culture but they decided to sell it out to Tourism for a better standard of living , unfortunately some of their own got greedy and want it for themselves rather than for the general population .
Pray tell what indigenous industry would they have without tourism ? When the Oil Companies come along , they will be suckered again!
Tenerife extends beyond Las Americas.
junglejim
03-05-2013, 18:20
C'mon Loaded who's playing the cactus now !
TF I'm well aware what's beyond Las Americas, I've seen most of it over the years but it highly dependent on Tourism related income , without it little else would maintain their standard of living.
C'mon Loaded who's playing the cactus now !
TF I'm well aware what's beyond Las Americas, I've seen most of it over the years but it highly dependent on Tourism related income , without it little else would maintain their standard of living.
We were discussing financial speculation, not tourism. And in any case, many areas in Spain such as El Hierro, La Palma, Cangas, Rosas, etc, have not adopted mass tourism yet have good standards of living. Far better, for example, than Benidorm. Tenerife's evolution would have been financed from one source or another, and who's to say that it might not have been adopted by the Swiss, for example, who would have probably declared all their taxes on their rentals ...... and most certainly would not be so blind or arrogant to say that the Canary Islands "now have no culture".
But we seem to be drifting further and further off topic, so back to my original point regarding investment in holiday rentals; however large the sector is or was, its quite useless if all of the money ends up in another country without being taxed here. And if anyone is genuinely interested in buying a property to use as a home or second home, then in a few years time the properties which were bought as a rental investments will be back on the market at realistic prices. And this time around, the buyers will know that they will have to pay their taxes before they buy.
We were discussing financial speculation, not tourism. And in any case, many areas in Spain such as El Hierro, La Palma, Cangas, Rosas, etc, have not adopted mass tourism yet have good standards of living. Far better, for example, than Benidorm. Tenerife's evolution would have been financed from one source or another, and who's to say that it might not have been adopted by the Swiss, for example, who would have probably declared all their taxes on their rentals ...... and most certainly would not be so blind or arrogant to say that the Canary Islands "now have no culture".
But we seem to be drifting further and further off topic, so back to my original point regarding investment in holiday rentals; however large the sector is or was, its quite useless if all of the money ends up in another country without being taxed here. And if anyone is genuinely interested in buying a property to use as a home or second home, then in a few years time the properties which were bought as a rental investments will be back on the market at realistic prices. And this time around, the buyers will know that they will have to pay their taxes before they buy.
Ah! you mean like the Russians,they know how to play it straight! don,t they?
It's quite wrong to say that a black economy industry with nil taxation is no use to anyone. The footfall from tourists staying in private apartments generates spending into the economy. That is the vital element in terms of economic well being for the economy and population.
We all agree that a tax contribution is necessary , my proposal is that this should be achieved by way of an annual permit fee bring required to be paid to the canary govt. however quite apart from that factor the actual spending generated by the tourists is the most vital and important part of the equation as far as the local economy is concerned .
It's quite wrong to say that a black economy industry with nil taxation is no use to anyone. The footfall from tourists staying in private apartments generates spending into the economy. That is the vital element in terms of economic well being for the economy and population.
We all agree that a tax contribution is necessary , my proposal is that this should be achieved by way of an annual permit fee bring required to be paid to the canary govt. however quite apart from that factor the actual spending generated by the tourists is the most vital and important part of the equation as far as the local economy is concerned .
Says the man who doesn't pay tax on his rental income(s) or IGIC in the Canaries
You really trust what someone says when they can't even get the meat and gravy of their argument right?
Why would´nt you trust a solicitor(especially English) who gives such detailed information ?, particularly when its so relevant to the thread. Perhaps you know of another professional, that´s suitably qualified to give legal information and willing to give it for free. Note that on a different site, we are all still waiting for Senor Escobedo to issue a comment on the same subject, it must be weeks ago.
Why would´nt you trust a solicitor(especially English) who gives such detailed information ?, particularly when its so relevant to the thread. Perhaps you know of another professional, that´s suitably qualified to give legal information and willing to give it for free. Note that on a different site, we are all still waiting for Senor Escobedo to issue a comment on the same subject, it must be weeks ago.
Detailed information that is detailed differently in two articles - so at least one of his detailed bits of information is wrong.....
OK, here's the situation in easy to understand terms. When this law was introduced and passed, it was published in a public bolletin. If anyone was not in favor of the law, they would have had a time limit (usually 14 days) to challenge the law. So, unless the law fully contradicts rigid EU laws (ie, the horizontal land grab saga in Valencia), nobody can appeal against the law at this stage. From my understanding, the revised laws which are about to be applied throughout Spain are not contradictory to EU laws, but only mildly infringe upon some EU guidelines, hence any appeal against any fine would probably fail in a Spanish court, and the EU would not intervene.
Regarding the notion that "I pay tax in the UK so I don't have to pay tax on my earnings in Spain", NO! There is a PROPOSAL from the EU regarding a singular corporate tax, but it has not been ratified and certainly won't be applied within the next 15 years. If you have a business in Spain, you have to register and pay tax in Spain. There is no other way, nor should there be.
This is happening, whether anyone likes it or not. The state will regulate the sector, and it will make sure that it gets revenue through taxes and fines.
Adapt or throw in the towel.
WOW, "easy to understand terms", !!!!!!!! "fully contradict rigid laws" or "mildly infringe on some EU guidlines"...... sorry, I just dont see it.
On other points however, TAX again !!, what if an internet based company took bookings in the UK, (or another country for that matter), the payment was made online, maybe even through paypal, how would then spain manage to tax the transaction going through ?
On the subject of adapt or throw in the towel, that's exactly what the Bolkestein is about, except that spain seem to want to stay in the dark ages.
Booking are to be done via the sole agent
So off with their heads.
Detailed information that is detailed differently in two articles - so at least one of his detailed bits of information is wrong.....
well, perhaps he didnt have the full transcripts of the cases on his first article, who knows without checking both together. Its fairly obvious though that hes not on your Christmas card list. Perhaps you´ve got some axe to grind or other history with him, or maybe just you dont like his message cause hes not in your "gang".
I am certain though, If I were a fine recipient, I would prefer my chances with him rather the "other chap", who seems to have no argument other than appeal to the authorities better nature and take pity on the hapless recipient.
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Booking are to be done via the sole agent
So off with their heads.
have to do it via email, but we we already know that agents dont need a licence. The judge said so.
licence or prior authorization?
licence or prior authorization?
you say tomato, I say tomato.
read it up in the bolke text, its riveting, to do with a posteriori inspection and the risks of not having a prior inspection. When you´ve looked up the meaning and worked it out, you´ll be so pleased you took the time.
Or you could just take it that the judge threw out the cases cause they didnt need it. ( the inspection or the licence)
licence and prior authorization are 2 completely separate issues.
WOW, "easy to understand terms", !!!!!!!! "fully contradict rigid laws" or "mildly infringe on some EU guidlines"...... sorry, I just dont see it.
On other points however, TAX again !!, what if an internet based company took bookings in the UK, (or another country for that matter), the payment was made online, maybe even through paypal, how would then spain manage to tax the transaction going through ?
On the subject of adapt or throw in the towel, that's exactly what the Bolkestein is about, except that spain seem to want to stay in the dark ages.
OK, I'll try to make it even simpler. A rigid EU law is one which must be upheld, as it directly protects elementary human rights, etc. EU guidelines are just that; guidelines which are created to be implemented as long as they don't conflict with a member state's own laws or constitutions. In theory a member state must adopt rigid EU laws once ratified, but can opt out of guidelines.
Tax:- if the property is in Spain, then it is irrelevant where the booking was made; the property is in Spain, so is registered in Spain and taxed in Spain. If the money was taken in the UK by internet, then it is in black unless declared and transferred to the local agent. Can you not see the relation?
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Ah! you mean like the Russians,they know how to play it straight! don,t they?
Is that some way of trying to justify British non tax payers here?
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 10:27
Is that some way of trying to justify British non tax payers here?
do you have something against the British? IMO and experience here, the amount of tax evasion by the British is tiny compared to the Spanish who do business here so why not bash them?
do you have something against the British? IMO and experience here, the amount of tax evasion by the British is tiny compared to the Spanish who do business here so why not bash them?
Nothing against the British, Russians or Spanish. My reply was to a rather strange comment suggesting that it might be OK if Brits don't pay tax, because Russians have a bad reputation as well.
do you have something against the British? IMO and experience here, the amount of tax evasion by the British is tiny compared to the Spanish who do business here so why not bash them?
There is an old biblical saying that two wrongs do not make a right
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There is a much deeper issue in the "tax" thing than many, like our Nellie, don't seem to recognise.
He loves his "pads" in Los cristo, and does very nicely out of them, his clients return year after year to help fund his mortgages and set him up nicely for his longer term capital gain, and believes he is doing his bit for the Canarian economy by filling bars with his clients.
However, when it comes to maintaining the basic infra-structure of his beloved town, does the question of where the money comes from to build the new footpaths, put in sewarage systems, provide electricity, clear-up and rebuild after storms like Delta devistate the island. The reality is that all these things are often funded, one way or another, from central funds and grants from, ultimately, Spain.
As has already been said many times, rental income on property in Spain attracts Spanish tax, and not just IGIC, all of which goes into the central pot from which local authorities benefit from grants for infra-structure projects - central Las Americas and Los Cristianos in recent years being prime examples.
Factor or not, illegal letting is just that, illegal. Surely we cannot expect the Canarian governors to accept an economy stimulated long term by illegal lettings?
I think there are bigger things at play here, people watching their money more and the general distribution of wealth issue, being that fewer hold most of the money therefore it tends to move around a lot less, or bigger lumps in single transactions such as property.
Let's not forget, illegal lettings are damaging to genuine business, as they at least are unable to compete fairly, yet they are contributing through taxes to the infrastructure and advertising of the island.
That said, we cannot blame people looking for cheaper holidays and we all love a bargain. More cost effective regulation and tax breaks for private lets as a solution to remove the illegal non-tax paying, non-contributing organisations would be a far better approach. Really a shame this was not managed better in my opinion.
Regards
KeZ
OK, I'll try to make it even simpler. A rigid EU law is one which must be upheld, as it directly protects elementary human rights, etc. EU guidelines are just that; guidelines which are created to be implemented as long as they don't conflict with a member state's own laws or constitutions. In theory a member state must adopt rigid EU laws once ratified, but can opt out of guidelines.
Tax:- if the property is in Spain, then it is irrelevant where the booking was made; the property is in Spain, so is registered in Spain and taxed in Spain. If the money was taken in the UK by internet, then it is in black unless declared and transferred to the local agent. Can you not see the relation?
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Is that some way of trying to justify British non tax payers here?
So we agree that the member state MUST follow EULaw. So why did the authorities here ignore Bolkestein (EU/2006/123) ?
My comment re payment of tax was to highlight the difficulty of collecting if transactions are done via the net. There are further methods that could be employed which would make it nigh on impossible for the hacienda to collect any tax due. The only solution IMO is for the authorities to adopt a simple registration procedure to allow all that wanted to let. The more rules and regulations they put in place will have the effect of excluding more, which will send them down the road of letting "under the radar".
Not forgetting under bolkestein, registration schemes should be made as simple as possible, with applications open to all legal persons as well as companies, and the ability to apply remotely over the Internet. Fees for applications should be listed, as well as the timescale for the application to be resolved. Applicants will be able to submit at one point of contact, who will be able to deal with all the required issues relating to the application.
There is more, but maybe that's enough for now, it does'nt seem much like tenerife to me. I think they have a long way to go before they comply. Going by the rumours of the laws coming out, it seems like they're going to carry on ignoring the BD, just picking out rules they want to follow.
So we agree that the member state MUST follow EULaw. So why did the authorities here ignore Bolkestein (EU/2006/123) ?
My comment re payment of tax was to highlight the difficulty of collecting if transactions are done via the net. There are further methods that could be employed which would make it nigh on impossible for the hacienda to collect any tax due. The only solution IMO is for the authorities to adopt a simple registration procedure to allow all that wanted to let. The more rules and regulations they put in place will have the effect of excluding more, which will send them down the road of letting "under the radar".
Not forgetting under bolkestein, registration schemes should be made as simple as possible, with applications open to all legal persons as well as companies, and the ability to apply remotely over the Internet. Fees for applications should be listed, as well as the timescale for the application to be resolved. Applicants will be able to submit at one point of contact, who will be able to deal with all the required issues relating to the application.
There is more, but maybe that's enough for now, it does'nt seem much like tenerife to me. I think they have a long way to go before they comply. Going by the rumours of the laws coming out, it seems like they're going to carry on ignoring the BD, just picking out rules they want to follow.
So if the tourist complexes have a sole agent who is responsible for giving a daily update to the police regarding who is staying in the apartments on hs site and this sole agent is responsible for making sure that the correct authorities know how much money is been collected by the individual owners,it shouldn't be diffcult to collect the correct amount of tax.Booking online will not make a difference.
Since all Spanish "civil servants" had their pay/hours ether reduced or frozen,they have had a much more involved approach to collecting taxes and fines as their income will be directly affected by their performance so I think we will see much more effective tax collection in the future.
There are still many illegal rentals going on in non licenced complexes.Has anyone seen Green Park on Golf del Sur and read the comments on Google from the poor people who have rented on there??? These types of almost derelict complexes are ruining the image of Tenerife and no one on the complex appears to be responsible for what s happening.
The unsuspecting clients who rent on there find the pool filthy,no lifts,no hot water,dirty corridors...........Where there is a licence and a sole agent,this can't happen because there is one person accountable to the client,the police and the tourist authorities.Let the tourist board do their job and the island will be better for it.
Tonym.... Doreen has already answered your questions on bolkestein - why do you not read that again???
So we agree that the member state MUST follow EULaw. So why did the authorities here ignore Bolkestein (EU/2006/123) ?
My comment re payment of tax was to highlight the difficulty of collecting if transactions are done via the net. There are further methods that could be employed which would make it nigh on impossible for the hacienda to collect any tax due. The only solution IMO is for the authorities to adopt a simple registration procedure to allow all that wanted to let. The more rules and regulations they put in place will have the effect of excluding more, which will send them down the road of letting "under the radar".
Not forgetting under bolkestein, registration schemes should be made as simple as possible, with applications open to all legal persons as well as companies, and the ability to apply remotely over the Internet. Fees for applications should be listed, as well as the timescale for the application to be resolved. Applicants will be able to submit at one point of contact, who will be able to deal with all the required issues relating to the application.
There is more, but maybe that's enough for now, it does'nt seem much like tenerife to me. I think they have a long way to go before they comply. Going by the rumours of the laws coming out, it seems like they're going to carry on ignoring the BD, just picking out rules they want to follow.
Unless the EU claimed that the law in question protects elementary human rights, then a member state can reject it by claiming that there are existing member state laws already active which are parallel to the EU laws. In other words, no, Spain does not have to accept the EU law.
Here's an example. In Holland, if you leave your property empty for over six months, the government can use it to rent out to someone. This is against EU guidelines but as it is within the Dutch constitution, it continues.
One other example is that the Canarian Government, just like the Junta de Andalucia, have passed rulings which will allow homes which have been repossessed to be "seized" from the banks by the autonomous communities for low cost rental to evicted families. This is likely to open up some major cases with the banks claiming that the practice is against EU laws, but it will still go on unless the Spanish high court rules otherwise.
It is probable that within the next few months the PP will try to rush through legislation regarding holiday rentals, probably adopting some module used elsewhere in Europe. The problem is if Paulino Rivero accepts this or not; he is being rather obtuse with the central government (rightly or wrongly) on just about every legislation which comes to the Canarian Parlament for ratification.
As with many aspects of our lives, its in the hands of politicians, but there is one common denominator, they ALL want to see the industry regulated.
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 12:38
.......Where there is a licence and a sole agent,this can't happen because there is one person accountable to the client,t.
so all the Spanish hotels and apartment complexes seen on BBC consumer shows are fine? There was one from Tenerife not long ago which had bare electric cables next to the swimming pool ! Who is inspecting these legal places ?
junglejim
04-05-2013, 12:52
My daughter and family are booked to stay in 4* Bouganville and is due in 2 weeks ,she has just been informed that they are renovating 3 floors worth of apartments by Jet2 but are refusing her alternative accommodation or refund / discount/ upgrade - the Hotel Management claim it is cosmetic-I stay 500yds from hotel -drilling , cement mixers,all baths being ripped out - cranes lifting supplies into complex - so much for standards and looking after tourists !
They even said photos I took yesterday were old photos!
They aren't checking everyday golf birdie.
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 13:08
They aren't checking everyday golf birdie.
the place in question invited the BBC team in as they were getting bad reviews. You'd think they would of invited a local inspector first or is that not possible?
BBC were reporting so nothing to do with inspectors or inspections.
Yes I guess they could have but that wouldn't have been a marketing plan
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 13:21
BBC were reporting so nothing to do with inspectors or inspections.
Yes I guess they could have but that wouldn't have been a marketing plan
I'm no sparky but even I can see a bare wire is not good news so how did this hotel allow work of this standard to take place?
Exposed wiring even though its shoddy it doesn't mean live exposed wiring.
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 13:29
Exposed wiring even though its shoddy it doesn't mean live exposed wiring.
it was live.
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 13:33
Wow did the BBC test it?
yes, they asked it :bootyshake:
Now just need a link to the BBC documentary
Angusjim
04-05-2013, 13:37
Exposed wiring even though its shoddy it doesn't mean live exposed wiring.
A client of yours Mark :whistle:
I have customers, you have clients
I watched the documentary and there was no test on the wires to see of try were live.
Still not good that there were exposed wires though.
So the BBC didn't test the cables, come on golf birdie you don't have to try and blag me
Angusjim
04-05-2013, 13:44
I have customers, you have clients
So thats a yes then :spin:
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 13:49
So the BBC didn't test the cables, come on golf birdie you don't have to try and blag me
I blag you not:whistle:
Mike was alarmed at the trip hazard caused by uneven/raised and spaced slabbing, as well as a garden light on the floor exposing live wires.
http://www.simpsonmillar.co.uk/news/news.aspx?newsid=2010
If you want it to be.
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Maybe Mike knows John the solicitor because they both seems to disclaimer their write ups. I doubt Mike the reporter had any test equipment to prove they were live.
Angusjim
04-05-2013, 13:59
So if the tourist complexes have a sole agent who is responsible for giving a daily update to the police regarding who is staying in the apartments on hs site and this sole agent is responsible for making sure that the correct authorities know how much money is been collected by the individual owners,it shouldn't be diffcult to collect the correct amount of tax.Booking online will not make a difference.
Since all Spanish "civil servants" had their pay/hours ether reduced or frozen,they have had a much more involved approach to collecting taxes and fines as their income will be directly affected by their performance so I think we will see much more effective tax collection in the future.
There are still many illegal rentals going on in non licenced complexes.Has anyone seen Green Park on Golf del Sur and read the comments on Google from the poor people who have rented on there??? These types of almost derelict complexes are ruining the image of Tenerife and no one on the complex appears to be responsible for what s happening.
The unsuspecting clients who rent on there find the pool filthy,no lifts,no hot water,dirty corridors...........Where there is a licence and a sole agent,this can't happen because there is one person accountable to the client,the police and the tourist authorities.Let the tourist board do their job and the island will be better for it.
Have a read thru tripadvisor there are many horror stories for legal complexes
golf birdie
04-05-2013, 14:00
If you want it to be.
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Maybe Mike knows John the solicitor because they both seems to disclaimer their write ups. I doubt Mike the reporter had any test equipment to prove they were live.
Mike was not a reporter, he works in health and safety inspections in the UK so i'd say he'd know a thing or two;)
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Have a read thru tripadvisor there are many horror stories for legal complexes
indeed there are which is one reason why so many change names.
I doubt very much if there was bare copper wire in a garden, that would trip out the mains every time the garden was watered. Most probably the reporter was referring to insulated cables showing, which might look crappy but are not dangerous. But with no footage available, its just speculation. At least the hotel has public liability insurance just in case.:whistle:
who-r-ya
04-05-2013, 14:22
Its awful that people are frightened to say they will rent their apartment now, I have noticed less apartments to rent in Club Atlantis Puerto Colon everyone is shxxxting themselves...yet I know of a person boldly advertising a Penthouse which is NOT a Penthouse and the authorities will not do anything, it is not only mis representation the apartment is electrically dangerous and is also filthy, I know 4 people who have complained in England and Tenerife but nothing, does not make sense..she has been handed to the authorities on a plate but still nothing done.
Did she denounce them or just a complaint?
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Mike would have had to test at night or the cabling would not have been live anyhow.
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Mike was not a reporter, he works in health and safety inspections in the UK so i'd say he'd know a thing or two;).
OK thanks that's great but he was reporting the apparent condition of that resort.
We rented our property out in the summer for many years totally unaware that it was illegal. We paid our taxes and neither the accountant or lawyer said a thing to us.
When we found out it was illegal we stopped renting out, consequence for Tenerife is possibly 730 people days a year less to Tenerife ie (26 weeks at 4 people a week). We paid our taxes which amounted to roughly the same as we pay in 'non letting tax' so no difference to Tenerife in tax but quite a difference to bars, restaurants etc.
We rented our property out in the summer for many years totally unaware that it was illegal. We paid our taxes and neither the accountant or lawyer said a thing to us.
When we found out it was illegal we stopped renting out, consequence for Tenerife is possibly 730 people days a year less to Tenerife ie (26 weeks at 4 people a week). We paid our taxes which amounted to roughly the same as we pay in 'non letting tax' so no difference to Tenerife in tax but quite a difference to bars, restaurants etc.
And a big difference to the legal tourist sector by stopping - well done for doing the right thing with your property.
who-r-ya
04-05-2013, 16:54
I agree with what you say and well done for doing the right thing I have family living in Tenerife and I like to rent apartments from people so I can see both sides of the coin. But still this women flaunts the law, pays no taxes in tenerife, places misleading ads and no one of authority will do anything, the hotel apartment turns a blind eye.
So sad to read loaded delighting in the apartment that has stopped renting because of the crackdown.
Loaded has no concerns at all for the Canarian economy or it's population, so many of them suffering unemployment and financial hardship . Just as long as loadeds own complex is fully booked up that's all he wants to see , he cares not that his full occupancy has come about because far more apartments on the islands have been stopped from renting , the result overall a downturn in the vital tourist footfall and spending.
Enjoy your privilege while you can, the people's suffering will lead to justice, the economy needs to provide for food for everyone , not just a protected elite.
Do you at least get you should be paying tax and igic here on your rental property Nelson or you still laughing that one off?
That's for you to answer nelson
Thats a point, Nelson, our cleaners, swimming pool man and agent have all lost out...and the taxis and hire companies.
Tonym.... Doreen has already answered your questions on bolkestein - why do you not read that again???
Probably read it enough times to recite it ad verbatim, besides, part way through a Peter Robinson novel, can't do anything till that's done.
My position is quite clear and has been stated many times. I pay my tax on my holiday home earnings here in the uk, I am fully entitled to do that. Ingic is like vat , it's not relevant to a private renter. I believe the sensible and practice way for the canary govt to raise tax from the canary holiday home renting industry is by way of an annual permit fee set at a sensible figure.
That is how I see things , the canarys benefiting from a strong holiday home renting sector in economic terms and this important industry being taxed and regulated by an annual permit fee.
I want to see maximum tourists staying in the apartments all over the canaries and Internet ads for canary apartments back on the popular Internet websites.
That's what the canary unemployed need to see happen , not all the private apartments empty and loaded gloating about his place being full
Wow how wrong can someone be! So everyone else should pay igic but you don't feel you need to???? The mind boggles!
My position is quite clear and has been stated many times. I pay my tax on my holiday home earnings here in the uk, I am fully entitled to do that. Ingic is like vat , it's not relevant to a private renter. I believe the sensible and practice way for the canary govt to raise tax from the canary holiday home renting industry is by way of an annual permit fee set at a sensible figure.
That is how I see things , the canarys benefiting from a strong holiday home renting sector in economic terms and this important industry being taxed and regulated by an annual permit fee.
I want to see maximum tourists staying in the apartments all over the canaries and Internet ads for canary apartments back on the popular Internet websites.
That's what the canary unemployed need to see happen , not all the private apartments empty and loaded gloating about his place being full
I should have a read of this if I were you
http://www.homeaway.co.uk/info/owner-resources/tax-and-legal/holiday-home-international-property-tax-guide/spain-property-tax
It starts thus .....
Under current legislation, non-resident individuals are taxed in Spain on income arising from Spanish sources only and are liable to a number of other property related taxes outlined below............
I dear , you always miss the obvious, my customers pay me in England ,the deal is done in England , the whole transaction is an English one , hence the tax gets sorted in England.
What would help the canary tax take, sensible and reasonable in my opinion, would be the requirement on apartment owners to pay an annual permit fee in the canaries.
No need for you to harp on about ignic at all, the annual permit fee is the better way to tax private renting owners from many different nationalities , some owners not even being from eu countries
This is because you prefer to not have a sole agent and you're finding the deal in the UK which is again the Spanish Law, the fines you have received nelson are just for you and other people like you.
Looks like there has been another person fines for having 2 illegal lets on your complex or is that you?
kiwiphil
04-05-2013, 21:44
I dear , you always miss the obvious, my customers pay me in England ,the deal is done in England , the whole transaction is an English one , hence the tax gets sorted in England.
I just checked this with an accountant, so I'm very sure of these facts.
The house is in Spain therefore any tax on it is due in Spain. End of story. Double taxation rules mean you'd only be taxed once, the UK would give you relief on the amount you paid in Spain, but it should be declared in both countries.
You may never get caught but be aware that if you did you would be fined and have penalties to pay in Spain.
If you don't believe what I'm saying to be correct then I would encourage you to check with an accountant.
^ Exactly as he says, when and if these fines ever come to light, the Hacienda WILL be coming after those people.
When it is fully established that renting a holiday home in the canaries is quite legal and normal , without the slightest controversy or rancour, then tax matters in respect of which country profits from renting should be paid in could be sorted out.
No one renting out their holiday home minds whether they pay tax in the uk or Spain , the only thing that needs sorting out is simply to get on with the actual renting , like everywhere else in the world.
The debate is not about only the Alice on wonderland sole agent overlord system ensures a tax contribution, tax can be paid by allowing normal individual renting of holiday homes
But you shouldn't be renting
The sole agent is here to stay.
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tax can be paid by allowing normal individual renting of holiday homes
Yes via a sole agent or long term i'm glad we agree on that
Nonsense , wake up and smell the coffee , nothing at all illegal about it, euro law says so if you are in any doubt, I for one always knew that renting out a holiday home was just basically normal by western democratic standards.
If you are referring to the odd protectionist Alice in wonderland sole monopoly agent overlord theory , where a complex is artificially and collectively given over to the overlord agent to rent out as he sees fit like a sort of converluted hotel, well that's a notion that never really caught on and as we watch current events unfold in the courts , is actually building it's own scaffold and putting its own head in its noose.
Renting holiday homes is normal the world over , it's not illegal anywhere in Europe at all
Your fine is way too small for your multi-illegal activities.
Angusjim
05-05-2013, 06:38
I should have a read of this if I were you
http://www.homeaway.co.uk/info/owner-resources/tax-and-legal/holiday-home-international-property-tax-guide/spain-property-tax
It starts thus .....
Under current legislation, non-resident individuals are taxed in Spain on income arising from Spanish sources only and are liable to a number of other property related taxes outlined below............
The one that cracks me up is the " deemed rental income" so they take a tax off something that they say is illegal how does that work:spin:
wouldn't that be calculated from a long term let basis?
Angusjim
05-05-2013, 08:30
wouldn't that be calculated from a long term let basis?
Good morning Mark fair point but they appear to take it from everyone whether you rent legal / illegal or do not rent at all how can that be right, you potentially get taxed for something you never earned or something you have earned illegally?
Deemed rental income tax (Rendimientos del capital inmobiliario)
If you are non-resident a "deemed rental income" is levied by the Spanish tax authorities for urban real estate not rented out or used as a second residence. Therefore, if your Spanish property is not rented out or not your primary residence (i.e. a holiday home), you will be liable for the "deemed rental income tax" even if you do not let out your Spanish property. The local town hall will charge you according to the valor catastral (rateable value) of the your Spanish property. They will assume you are making 2% of this value each year from letting your Spanish property and charge you 25% of that "income", which equates to a total of 0.5% of the valor catastral (rateable value) of the your Spanish property. For example, if you own a Spanish property with a valor catastral (rateable value) of €100,000 and you are not renting it out, you will still be liable for 25% of €2000, which equates to €500
My position is quite clear and has been stated many times. I pay my tax on my holiday home earnings here in the uk, I am fully entitled to do that.
That is your opinion. However, it is not the law which is applied in Europe.
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I dear , you always miss the obvious, my customers pay me in England ,the deal is done in England , the whole transaction is an English one , hence the tax gets sorted in England.
But the real estate and service is in Tenerife. So you have to declare and pay in Tenerife.
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Renting holiday homes is normal the world over , it's not illegal anywhere in Europe at all
Try renting out an unlicensed holiday apartment in Florida, without paying taxes. I dare you!
Try actually renting out a holiday home in the Canary Islands, sounds quite a reasonable and uncontroversial thing to do, but hey, at the moment an incredible farce
It's perfectly normal to have a sole agent in the Canaries it's been the law for 16 years.
They are the future and leaders in this sector.
Angusjim
05-05-2013, 10:40
It's perfectly normal to have a sole agent in the Canaries it's been the law for 16 years.
They are the future and leaders in this sector.
Mark since you stay & work in Tenerife and obviously seem to know most of the sole agents in your area would you say they are all running good honest businesses that benefit themselves and the owners & holidaymakers,on the Forum we only ever hear about 3, 2 seem very good 1 a bit dodgy. Do your really think there is no other way that the industry can move forward to a better future and that the current system needs no changes / improvements.
The absurdity in principle of sole agency ie, the concept of collectively compelling the individual apartment owners on a complex to be exploited collectively like some converluted hotel, with hotel extras like reception etc , by a sole agent overlord, he alone being permitted to carry out the renting, well that has a future about as long as communism had in1989.
Anything in this world as plainly mad and injustice can not endure.
Sole agency was largely ignored for 15 years, it's only attempt to fight for itself now is basically its custers last stand.
I know of quite a few yes, some of which i do electrical maintenance for but besides that I'm a clear talking type of guy, i would undoubtedly say that in my opinion the sole agent complexes are run far better than residential complexes were the owner rent privately.
What was bad was the time where there was multi-agents on one site, because the game was fight for your weeks and things were really badly run on many complexes, plenty of dirty tricks from both sides.
At this point i, with exception to all but a few pulled out of doing anything for holiday rental properties (just in the same way as i did with discos around the Veronicas area) because it started to get totally unprofessional, on the flip side the sole agents i work with now are respected by the people that rent through them in more or less every case.
As i have said before the sole agent system is great its total control if everyone plays by the book, I am totally against 300 owners on a complex all doing their own thing.
Tourist complex home owners are lucky they can be part of the tourism sector and earn more money from their investment via holiday rentals compared to residential long lets, but it shouldn't be "ALL" for them.
That's interesting 9 plus, unlike a lot of us your posts are better when you do em longer.
Seems to me you support sole agents against multi agent sites, when the real argument is sole agent v independent Internet advertising owners.
Single owners renting their personal holiday home do a fantastic job and enjoy satisfied customers.they really don't need sole agent overlords to keep on doing that so well.
So who on here would invest €160.000 to get a return off €3500-€4000 a year from the sole agent? Yes i know some return more but not on my complex.
Angusjim
05-05-2013, 11:35
I know of quite a few yes, some of which i do electrical maintenance for but besides that I'm a clear talking type of guy, i would undoubtedly say that in my opinion the sole agent complexes are run far better than residential complexes were the owner rent privately.
What was bad was the time where there was multi-agents on one site, because the game was fight for your weeks and things were really badly run on many complexes, plenty of dirty tricks from both sides.
At this point i, with exception to all but a few pulled out of doing anything for holiday rental properties (just in the same way as i did with discos around the Veronicas area) because it started to get totally unprofessional, on the flip side the sole agents i work with now are respected by the people that rent through them in more or less every case.
As i have said before the sole agent system is great its total control if everyone plays by the book, I am totally against 300 owners on a complex all doing their own thing.
Tourist complex home owners are lucky they can be part of the tourism sector and earn more money from their investment via holiday rentals compared to residential long lets, but it shouldn't be "ALL" for them.
So to summarise you have heard of no complaints about any sole agents or the system in general & the system needs no changes or further safegaurds built in and no other systems should be considered EG issuing indivdual licences to owners, this must be a Tenerife 1st. The local government have come come up with the perfect solution that runs like clockwork job done !! Whats next to sort out?
So who on here would invest €160.000 to get a return off €3500-€4000 a year from the sole agent? Yes i know some return more but not on my complex.
So look for a different complex ????
Name me an investment that let's you change the returns based on what YOU think the returns should be ?
Individual licences for owners would be the same balls up it once was and in some cases still is.
I do not back that individual system.
One complex, one agent, if the owners don't like the agent they can be replaced, it's very simple.
Choosing to live in a community mean the majority voting system in every case if that is not for you, community living is not for you.
I also back €100,000 fines for repeat offenders
Angusjim
05-05-2013, 11:58
So look for a different complex ????
Name me an investment that let's you change the returns based on what YOU think the returns should be ?
Is it that simple just to move complex ? So who actually sets the returns that owners get ? Must say sounds like a pretty poor return on £160k as a matter of interest approx how much would the sole agent make from that apartment ?
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Individual licences for owners would be the same balls up it once was and in some cases still is.
I do not back that individual system.
One complex, one agent, if the owners don't like the agent they can be replaced, it's very simple.
Choosing to live in a community mean the majority voting system in every case if that is not for you, community living is not for you.
I also back €100,000 fines for repeat offenders
You say its simple to change the sole agent but what if the sole agent already owns the 50% + 1 required how do you change them ?
How many sole agents own 50%+1 of the apartments on a complex Jim ?
Red Devil
05-05-2013, 12:17
It's perfectly normal to have a sole agent in the Canaries it's been the law for 16 years.
They are the future and leaders in this sector.
Thats all well and good in theory but it isnt right, because you have lumped all tourists into one category, the 1 to 2 week visitor who can only stay in certain "allowed" complexes.
I have asked previously who is now catering for the longer term visitor, the swallows etc? No -one answered me.
My sister comes every winter for 1-2 months, she cant find any accommodation for this next winter because the registered complexes arent interested in longer term rentals, their booking systems (and prices) are only geared up for shorter stays.
A friend from Norway comes to Tenerife for 4 weeks every November and then 6 weeks Jan/Feb, again she can no longer find suitable accommodation.
What sort of holiday island is it that wont provide for tourists who have money to spend?
Long winded but please read:
Results booking.com (http://www.booking.com/searchresults.en-gb.html?sid=b7d8e228967fb32230864908682e3fb0;dcid= 1;ac_pageview_id=11934b98031f0083;checkin_monthday =12;checkin_year_month=2013-5;checkout_monthday=19;checkout_year_month=2013-5;class_interval=1;csflt={};dest_id=-389931;dest_type=city;inac=0;interval_of_time=unde f;offset=0;redirected_from_city=0;redirected_from_ landmark=0;review_score_group=empty;rfh=0;score_mi n=0;si=ai%2Cco%2Cci%2Cre%2Cdi;src=index;ss=Los%20C ristianos%2C%20Spain;ss_all=0;ssb=empty;radius=2&selected_currency=EUR)
Above are the prices for places in Los Cristianos next week:
Paloma Beach 289 euros
Cristian Sur 308 euros
Tenerife sur 266 euros
Booking.com standard commission is 15%.... the ones with a thumbs up next to them pay 17% (they allow places with high review scores, lots of availability etc to be in a preferred spot). All of these three pay 17%.
so:
Paloma Beach 289 euros - 17% (49.13) = 239.87
Cristian Sur 308 euros - 17% (52.36) = 255.64
Tenerife sur 266 euros - 17% (45.22) = 220.78
Then take off 7% igic of the original from that:
Paloma Beach 289 euros - 17% (49.13) = 239.87.... MINUS 7% (20.23) = 219.64
Cristian Sur 308 euros - 17% (52.36) = 255.64........MINUS 7% (21.56) = 234.08
Tenerife sur 266 euros - 17% (45.22) = 220.78.......MINUS 7% (18.62) = 202.16
Those are the bottom lines before you decide who gets how much, now you have to work out how much the owner should be getting and how much the management should get bearing mind they need to clean the apartment, supply and change beds and towels, employ staff to that and more staff to be on reception and more staff for maintenance.....
Lets assume somepaid 160,000 euros for a place on Cristian Sur wanting a ROI of 5%... that means they need 8000 euros per year after tax and after bills. Community fees, water, electrics and IBI on Cristian Sur will be pretty much same as Paloma Beach which is around 2300....an accountant will set you back around 300 - so expenses are 2600.
So to end up with 8000 euros after tax (24.75) and IGIC 7% and bills of 2600 you need:
Managment to pay the owner 13165.42 euros per year income against your bills which are 2600.... this would give you an IGIC bill of 921.58 and a 24.75 % tax bill of 3486.53...... this leaves 8000.47 = 5% ROI.
So based on the sole agent giving you 13165.42 per year that means 253 euros per week and they'd have to book it 52 weeks of the year.......
now if the sole agents "only" manages to get 45 weeks thats 292.55 per week.
If they do 40 weeks a year they would need to pay 329 euros per week.
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Based on the original figures:
Paloma Beach 289 euros - 17% (49.13) = 239.87.... MINUS 7% (20.23) = 219.64
Cristian Sur 308 euros - 17% (52.36) = 255.64........MINUS 7% (21.56) = 234.08
Tenerife sur 266 euros - 17% (45.22) = 220.78.......MINUS 7% (18.62) = 202.16
Please explain how it is possible for the sole agent to pay an owner 253€, 292€ or even 329€ per week when they only have (based on Cristian Surs example) : 234 euros to divide up between owner and themselves????????????
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