View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Yes everyone does , but in the canaries they have peculiar laws and if any money changes hands its an illegal let.
On top of that the new law is going to get the residents out of the touristic complex,s , so there will be no more family and friends dodging for them or cleaning contribution scamming the canary tax take.
Duncan will soon have to pay full whack or get off to the bitacora
Yes everyone does , but in the canaries they have peculiar laws and if any money changes hands its an illegal let.
On top of that the new law is going to get the residents out of the touristic complex,s , so there will be no more family and friends dodging for them or cleaning contribution scamming the canary tax take.
Duncan will soon have to pay full whack or get off to the bitacora
You speak as if you have some form of confirmation of this which, given there is no new law yet, is somewhat surprising - or has your Hotline to the President been reconnected in light of your 10 grand finding it's way to them??
Hang on a minute the enforced removal of residents in touristics was first announced in the press when the new draft law was announced . The fine for illegal residenting is going to be 30000 euro .
If I follow the class action route of deal on fine reduction then the pay rate is around 5000 euro.
That's not per apartment , so my pay up and be done price is not going to be 10000 euro.
In my view 5000 should not be my deal price in any event because I am on a touristic site. The 5000 deal price is ok for the residential renters, but me being on a touristic makes me not actually as evil as them , so my pay up and be done price should be less than theirs .
Remember you arnt Paying any fine nelson
junglejim
25-05-2013, 18:31
Noel Edmonds will be along shortly to seal the deal , just don't sit on his knee. You have been warned- again!
Well of course 9 plus, everything is up in the air, the alotca deal may suit some, I may well have other defences and may end up at Europe court level.
I was just correcting muppet, he was thinking my deal and be done price might be 10 k, he is working on 5k per apartment , obviously we were only fined once , apartment numbers did not come into it
Well of course 9 plus, everything is up in the air, the alotca deal may suit some, I may well have other defences and may end up at Europe court level.
Have you checked in with Tenerife Solicitors for advice, then :)
Vasilisa
25-05-2013, 18:56
Hi, sorry to bother. Would you advise please, where shell i look for some place to stay just for 10 days in the end of august? I am looking for smthing very cheap just for one person. Thank you
Well of course 9 plus, everything is up in the air, the alotca deal may suit some, I may well have other defences and may end up at Europe court level.
I was just correcting muppet, he was thinking my deal and be done price might be 10 k, he is working on 5k per apartment , obviously we were only fined once , apartment numbers did not come into it
But you were fined twice for one apartament
But you were fined twice for one apartament
No, 9PLUS
Primero: explotar turísticamente los apartamentos A y B del complejo denominado "Sur y Sol" sin disponer del Libro de Inspección de Turismo.
Segundo: explotar turísticamente los apartamentos A y B del complejo denominado "Sur y Sol" careciendo de las hojas de reclamaciones.
Janet's recent update said the 5.000 deal was initially only for those fined 18.000 (the majority of cases) ... hopefully his lawyer is chatting to Snr Escobedo :)
Supposed to have Been a qué satino mark on the end of that,
And as I have been saying the majority of cases are pure residential lets . Surely a touristic renter is nothing near as irregular as a residential renter?
Deal and done rate as such should be a good bit lower.
Well, good luck meeting the judge - but that's not what I said in my earlier post.
I asked whether you had been called on your HotLine regarding the comments you made re the new law. The point being it is not a new law as yet, it probably has several more weeks/months of discussion since it is still in discussion stage. As many many have pointed out, there is no certainty about what the final version may contain, there have been many objections raised on certain aspects so far, and until it is sent to the statute books you cannot assume anything much will be in it, and certainly not evictions !
Not sure what your getting at? In the uk if the govt proposes a new law and outlines its intentions, say in the queens speech, we all know what's coming, subject to debate and amendment . Ok in Spain / canaries maybe they do things a bit different, but surely if they say that they want to de residential the touristics and propose to fine illegal residents in touristics 30000 euros, then we all must start to take notice today.
Is it normal in Spain/canaries for extreme laws that will seriously affect people's lives with extremely serious consequences for them, to be proposed by the govt but never to become reality ?
If that's how it works in Spain then sorry for scaremongering , but to my mind what the govt said was coming is what we have to be prepared for unless they tell us different .
kiwiphil
25-05-2013, 23:52
Nelson, be strong, take them all to the highest courts available. Use the Churchill spirit. Don't take any of the deals offered. You know you are right. There's no way the Spanish and Canarian Governments can afford to take you on in a protracted legal case, you'll grind them into submission. Your logic surpasses their levels of understanding, they don't have a chance.
Go Nelson!!!!
duncan-6
26-05-2013, 07:40
Nelson, be strong, take them all to the highest courts available. Use the Churchill spirit. Don't take any of the deals offered. You know you are right. There's no way the Spanish and Canarian Governments can afford to take you on in a protracted legal case, you'll grind them into submission. Your logic surpasses their levels of understanding, they don't have a chance.
Go Nelson!!!!
He's only 50!..his BO****ks haven't dropped yet, you would think he had first hand experience of fighting his way through Normandy after 6th june 1944, the only Churchill he knows is opposite harry's the fag shop.
Is it normal in Spain/canaries for extreme laws that will seriously affect people's lives with extremely serious consequences for them, to be proposed by the govt but never to become reality ?
If that's how it works in Spain then sorry for scaremongering , but to my mind what the govt said was coming is what we have to be prepared for unless they tell us different .
Nelson, new laws are passed in the UK by initially getting proposed and then getting passed through commons, house of lords, etc. That is the system used there, which in my opinion is not that democratic because no individual can easily oppose the proposed law before it is enforced.
In Spain, the laws are proposed, and ANY SPANISH CITIZEN OR RESIDENT can challenge the law before it is enforced. (Mussolini, Franco and Hitler must be turning in their graves!) It is mainly due to these challenges why there are so many long delays in laws being finally enforced.
As I have stated before, you will have your chance to challenge the new law when it is proposed. If your lawyer tells you anything different (though I'm sure he would love to skip that part in order to relieve you of tens of thousands of €'s to get you your 3 minutes of fame at the EU courts), you should seriously consider replacing him with someone who can explain to you the FACTS about the Spanish legal system, opposed to telling you what you want to hear.
Once again, if this new law is passed by the Spanish government through their democratic process (which is, by the way, fully ratified and accepted by the EU), then the EU will NOT be able to challenge it later as it does not affect any basic human rights.
Peterrayner
26-05-2013, 09:00
The 1995/7 Law has already previously been challenged in the EU High Court by the Cuidadnos Europeos, in 2007 IIRC, which ruled that although the law is protectionist it was allowed because of the Canary Islands protected designation.
The 1995/7 Law has already previously been challenged in the EU High Court by the Cuidadnos Europeos, in 2007 IIRC, which ruled that although the law is protectionist it was allowed because of the Canary Islands protected designation.
Challenging a law after it has been ratified is seldom successful within the Spanish legal system. A 1995 law should have been challenged in 1995, between it being proposed and being implemented.
If the law had not been initially passed in Madrid, then it would not have even made it to the Canarian Parlament for consideration.
The legal battles will certainly rumble on for some time and as I say the alotca deal and be done offer may not reflect upon a touristic complex renter.
Let us not forget however, that the crackdown is causing serious economic damage to the canary economy , and suffering to the Canarian people.
Summer 2013 is set to see a very visible and significant downturn in former holiday let customer footfall .
On the ja site , despite their declared opposition to the fines and their meetings at high govt level, they have moved to a position that the illegal private letting industry is minuscule and completely irrelevant to the islands economic fortunes. I have often said that if that actually was the case then why bother to attack private letting at all?
The old Soviet Union collapsed not because of legal challenge or international pressure but simply because it ran out of money and went bust.
Whatever the legal arguments in court the crackdown will fail if it destroys the tourist resorts. If the punters do not suddenly decide to fill up the hotels, them what the courts decide won't matter .
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The 1995/7 Law has already previously been challenged in the EU High Court by the Cuidadnos Europeos, in 2007 IIRC, which ruled that although the law is protectionist it was allowed because of the Canary Islands protected designation.
Things have changed, the old lost case was 2 big agents fighting over a complex . 2007 was the beginnings of owners direct etc, Internet e commerce just getting going.
How could sole agency be said to be vital to the islands today? As opposed to the growth of holiday home renting on Internet sites worldwide. For the canaries to be actually excluded from this emerging market would be in itself an economic disaster . We have the declining tourist numbers of the crackdown years to show that customers demand what type of accommodation they want and won't just take what the canary govt orders them to,
A legal challenge at euro now is a different matter
Peterrayner
26-05-2013, 10:57
Things have changed, the old lost case was 2 big agents fighting over a complex . 2007 was the beginnings of owners direct etc, Internet e commerce just getting going.
How could sole agency be said to be vital to the islands today? As opposed to the growth of holiday home renting on Internet sites worldwide. For the canaries to be actually excluded from this emerging market would be in itself an economic disaster . We have the declining tourist numbers of the crackdown years to show that customers demand what type of accommodation they want and won't just take what the canary govt orders them to,
A legal challenge at euro now is a different matter
The case I an referring to was taken up by CE and BALL (Business Against Letting Laws) based in Los Gigantes. The case argued that restrictions on holiday lettings of private apartments (of all categories) was unconstitutional and protectionist.
The court ruled this was correct but that the Canary Islands were granted a "special status" and were therefore allowed this unique arrangement.
The legal battles will certainly rumble on for some time and as I say the alotca deal and be done offer may not reflect upon a touristic complex renter.
....and in any event you probably don't qualify for the ALOTCA deal, even if you wanted to cut and run!
Let us not forget however, that the crackdown is causing serious economic damage to the canary economy , and suffering to the Canarian people.
The primary problems facing the Canarian Economy are those currently affecting the Spanish economy, and for that matter pretty much all EU economies. Do you have a statistical source to back your comments up, or are they just your personal opinion guided by your personal situation of lack of clients?
Summer 2013 is set to see a very visible and significant downturn in former holiday let customer footfall .
You said the same last year- didn't happen
On the ja site , despite their declared opposition to the fines and their meetings at high govt level, they have moved to a position that the illegal private letting industry is minuscule and completely irrelevant to the islands economic fortunes. I have often said that if that actually was the case then why bother to attack private letting at all?
Perhaps because, following the meetings you refer to, it became more than apparent the Government believe that taking control of the tourist industry and implimenting a proper set of standards to protect visitors was more important than lining your pocket, and as has now been shown the dialogue has at least achieved a more proportionate and realistic level of sanction for those who got caught up in the situation through being misled, or misunderstood the implications of their actions.
The old Soviet Union collapsed not because of legal challenge or international pressure but simply because it ran out of money and went bust.
......here we go again!
Whatever the legal arguments in court the crackdown will fail if it destroys the tourist resorts. If the punters do not suddenly decide to fill up the hotels, them what the courts decide won't matter .
..... it is far more likely that the standards of accomodation (much of which is now very old), the facilities available and perhaps more importantly at this time the security of visitors, (much of which will be funded through the proper collection of tax) will be the real deciding factor.
Things have changed, the old lost case was 2 big agents fighting over a complex . 2007 was the beginnings of owners direct etc, Internet e commerce just getting going.
.... and look where that has got economies - think Amazon and more recently M&S for example
How could sole agency be said to be vital to the islands today?
By being held to account for problems experienced by tourists, dealing with rouge owners who have in the past run off with deposits, ensuring the standards laid down by the Government are maintained, and by being accountable to the Government for collecting income tax and IGIC from the owners.
As opposed to the growth of holiday home renting on Internet sites worldwide. For the canaries to be actually excluded from this emerging market would be in itself an economic disaster . We have the declining tourist numbers of the crackdown years to show that customers demand what type of accommodation they want and won't just take what the canary govt orders them to,
Source please?
But it is not now just the Canaries is it. Mainland Spain are about to introduce legislation, and as has been pointed out many times, other authorities across the world have rules in place also,
You are just sore that your little earner is collapsing in front of your very eyes when you, specifically, have never input a cent from your earnings back into the local economy.
A legal challenge at euro now is a different matter
Have fun!
That's interesting, and Los gigantos is definitely in mess with the crackdown today.there is very little standard legal accommodation and the towns shops/ restaurants are totally dependant upon the private apartment industry. The people in the 2007 case sound like they were commercial groups , maybe the restaurants etc.
The reality is this decision was wrong if the islands economy is not actually helped by the protectionism. They need to go back to court now and refer to the 2013 unemployment numbers / hotel occupancy and the state of Los gigantos today. It won't hurt to mention the global growth in holiday letting websites either since 2007.
I'm surprised Nelson hasn't brought Fidel Castro into the debate .....
Peterrayner
26-05-2013, 12:20
That's interesting, and Los gigantos is definitely in mess with the crackdown today.there is very little standard legal accommodation and the towns shops/ restaurants are totally dependant upon the private apartment industry. The people in the 2007 case sound like they were commercial groups , maybe the restaurants etc.
The reality is this decision was wrong if the islands economy is not actually helped by the protectionism. They need to go back to court now and refer to the 2013 unemployment numbers / hotel occupancy and the state of Los gigantos today. It won't hurt to mention the global growth in holiday letting websites either since 2007.
The court if I recollect didnt comment on whether the 1995 Letting Law restrictions system was right or wrong but rather that the autonomous region ie Canary Islands had the legal right to determine its own rules because the they had a Protected Area Designation due to several unique circumstances which differented it from other regions Ie The Mainland or other EU countries ie Portugal, etc.
Sadly I don't think anything will have changed along those lines.
However if the current crisis had a local negative effect then the local government are free to make changes themselves...but the don't seem much inclined to do so..except in respect of independent villas perhaps.
Whether such a ruling then presents any opportunity for apartment owners looks doubtful to me.
junglejim
26-05-2013, 12:23
I'm surprised Nelson hasn't brought Fidel Castro into the debate .....
Don´t think it would suit his argument though!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba
Just think of Godfather 2 !
The court if I recollect didnt comment on whether the 1995 Letting Law restrictions system was right or wrong but rather that the autonomous region ie Canary Islands had the legal right to determine its own rules because the they had a Protected Area Designation due to several unique circumstances which differented it from other regions Ie The Mainland or other EU countries ie Portugal, etc.
Sadly I don't think anything will have changed along those lines.
However if the current crisis had a local negative effect then the local government are free to make changes themselves...but the don't seem much inclined to do so..except in respect of independent villas perhaps.
Whether such a ruling then presents any opportunity for apartment owners looks doubtful to me.
Peter, this depends upon what level central government attempt to change the laws. Remember that the PP have a majority in Moncloa (for now, at least). Just last week they passed a new law which means that public schools which don't teach castellano as a first language do not get funded. This is fully against the autonomous community laws of Catalunya, País Vasco and Galicia, but the national law has over-ruled them.
If the PP want to impose new laws on a national level, Paulino Rivero will have a very difficult task in blocking their implementation in the Canaries. The CC do not have an overall majority here.
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Don´t think it would suit his argument though!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba
Just think of Godfather 2 !
He'd probably like Cuba, no tax has been collected there for the last 60 years.:D
Long Live the Sole Agents
x
canary boy
26-05-2013, 16:23
If for arguments sake you have been renting your apartment for 10 years , you should of paid of a huge part of the capital on the property and now you have been fined €5000 ,sell up like i did and your still laughing all the way to the bank Or just long let and put an extra €70 on per month to pay off the €5000
Am i the only one that thinks £4000 is pretty damn good deal? Just think of the tax the government has lost with the people not paying
I was naive but ignorance cannot be used as an excuse and you have broken the law and the judge realises that you have to be punished and I think this is totally fair
The original fines were always absurdly high, fine reduction by the courts was always said to be likely from the start. 5000 euro at whatever exchange rate to the pound that might prevail in the end is clearly no great shakes for me after 10 years on two apartments.
But the fact remains that most if not all the alotca 18 k deal peolpe are pure residential renters . It is quite right and proper for me to put the issue that as a renter on a tourist designated complex I am not as irregular as a renter on a residential complex. Indeed if alotca has such people in its deal group then these people should not be penalised to the same degree as a pure residential renter.
A renter on a touristic designated complex is not as irregular as a renter on a residential only comes.
The original fines were always absurdly high, fine reduction by the courts was always said to be likely from the start. 5000 euro at whatever exchange rate to the pound that might prevail in the end is clearly no great shakes for me after 10 years on two apartments.
But the fact remains that most if not all the alotca 18 k deal peolpe are pure residential renters . It is quite right and proper for me to put the issue that as a renter on a tourist designated complex I am not as irregular as a renter on a residential complex. Indeed if alotca has such people in its deal group then these people should not be penalised to the same degree as a pure residential renter.
A renter on a touristic designated complex is not as irregular as a renter on a residential only comes.
Sorry, surely an owner of property(s) on a Touristic complex WITH an agent in place, but chose not to use said agent, has committed a far more serious offence than an owner on a resdential complex who knew no better??
Pretty sure that's how the (same) Judge will see it. Blatent disregard for the law!
canary boy
26-05-2013, 17:10
Yes thats right, I wanted to purchase on the golf complex but estate agent said no because you have to rent through the house company but you can quite happily buy on this residential complex and rent out and there's no need for a solicitor we do all that for you...what a plank i was!
All im saying except the fine and if you don't like the laws bugger off somewhere else, a bit like the Aussie prime-minister said about immigration
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/government/a/Australian-Prime-Minister-Muslim-Immigrants.htm
Ha ha muppet , well that's one way of looking at it.
But of course seriously , the punters in my touristic beds are legally supposed to be there, that's the point, these punters should legally be in there and fully entitled to be in the resort and spending their money to the good of the canary economy and people.
I have been fined for not having a sign on display about complaint forms and also not actually having complaint forms.
No need for you to try to say different, that's a straightforward infraction about signs and forms. Not at all worse than getting tourists into residential apartments and taking trade from the proper tourist places, me and you both
dunnaworry nellie cause you've got a sign up now and complaints book
x
All sorted , so easy for anyone to apply for them what with the easy to use portal on the interweb , as legally required to be provided for us by the govt , in accordance with eu law and so as to be compliant with the bolkestein directive
All sorted , so easy for anyone to apply for them what with the easy to use portal on the interweb , as legally required to be provided for us by the govt , in accordance with eu law and so as to be compliant with the bolkestein directive
HAHAHAHAHA! You should be on the stage.
All sorted , so easy for anyone to apply for them what with the easy to use portal on the interweb , as legally required to be provided for us by the govt , in accordance with eu law and so as to be compliant with the bolkestein directive
Yeah there is one, Loaded has already shown you
Angusjim
27-05-2013, 07:56
HAHAHAHAHA! You should be on the stage.
He is, its just some of the the audience that don't know he is :wink2:
He is, its just some of the the audience that don't know he is :wink2:
Is he the "warm up" or the "wind up" act"?
Angusjim
27-05-2013, 09:44
Is he the "warm up" or the "wind up" act"?
I would say both he is good at the first but brilliant at the 2nd:laugh:
Peterrayner
27-05-2013, 15:31
http://newsinthesun.com/
Red Devil
27-05-2013, 16:36
http://newsinthesun.com/
So they report spending is up, yet in a column further down on the same page it says foreign tourists in the Canaries fell by 1.2% in the same period. Not sure what either fact tells us then :D
delderek
27-05-2013, 16:59
So they report spending is up, yet in a column further down on the same page it says foreign tourists in the Canaries fell by 1.2% in the same period. Not sure what either fact tells us then :D
Prices have increased!!:whistle:
Peterrayner
27-05-2013, 17:24
So they report spending is up, yet in a column further down on the same page it says foreign tourists in the Canaries fell by 1.2% in the same period. Not sure what either fact tells us then :D
more Brits going ,.... who spend more :0
all the others in big boots, walking sticks and rucksacks don't spend much.
I've just watched a program called "Don't get done in the sun". A chap called Jeremy, who drives an orange minibus and calls himself a professional driver,told the interviewer that he has known the Tenerife police stop taxis on the motorway and if they find a problem with the paperwork for the taxi, they dump passengers on the side of the motorway with their luggage and leave them stranded.In thirty years on the island I have never heard of this happening but he made it sound like a regular event. We don't need to worry about the Tourist Board ruining our tourism when we have British idiots doing such a good job for us.I hope someone knows him and can arrange for him to be deported quickly!!!!
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I would say both he is good at the first but brilliant at the 2nd:laugh:
He could be the "court jester" when his case comes before the Juez.
He could be the "court jester" when his case comes before the Juez.
But we'd lose him as the forum one, spoze we're got the 2 Jims
x
That was the idea,to lose him!! Although I expect we'd miss him.
speak for yourself......................duck
junglejim
29-05-2013, 01:58
New Law jumps through another hoop -not a lot of detail but some movement on Villas may be forthcoming !
http://eldia.es/canarias/2013-05-28/15-Aprobada-ley-turistica-impide-construir-hoteles-cuatro-estrellas.htm
The legal battles will certainly rumble on for some time and as I say the alotca deal and be done offer may not reflect upon a touristic complex renter.
Let us not forget however, that the crackdown is causing serious economic damage to the canary economy , and suffering to the Canarian people.
Summer 2013 is set to see a very visible and significant downturn in former holiday let customer footfall .
Just wondering if this is your source for this?
Air traffic is set to increase by 17% this summer according to recent figures released. Over 17.000.000 seats have been reserved by tour operators and airlines over this years summer period. Tenerife has 6.937.340 seats (4.709.209 for the south and 1.846.602 for Los Rodeos) which is 39% of the air traffic for the islands. These figures represent a 11% increase for Reina Sofia and a 10% increase for Tenerife North when compared to 2009.
http://www.canariesnews.com/2010/03/14/air-traffic-increase-this-summer/#.UaXD4dKsiSo
Just wondering if this is your source for this?
Air traffic is set to increase by 17% this summer according to recent figures released. Over 17.000.000 seats have been reserved by tour operators and airlines over this years summer period. Tenerife has 6.937.340 seats (4.709.209 for the south and 1.846.602 for Los Rodeos) which is 39% of the air traffic for the islands. These figures represent a 11% increase for Reina Sofia and a 10% increase for Tenerife North when compared to 2009.
http://www.canariesnews.com/2010/03/14/air-traffic-increase-this-summer/#.UaXD4dKsiSo
Come off it muppet don't let facts mess up an argument
Just wondering if this is your source for this?
Air traffic is set to increase by 17% this summer according to recent figures released. Over 17.000.000 seats have been reserved by tour operators and airlines over this years summer period. Tenerife has 6.937.340 seats (4.709.209 for the south and 1.846.602 for Los Rodeos) which is 39% of the air traffic for the islands. These figures represent a 11% increase for Reina Sofia and a 10% increase for Tenerife North when compared to 2009.
http://www.canariesnews.com/2010/03/14/air-traffic-increase-this-summer/#.UaXD4dKsiSo
Come off it muppet don't let facts mess up an argument
wadda mistaka to maka - twice !
Red Devil
29-05-2013, 13:39
But Muppets link is dated March 2010
slodgedad
29-05-2013, 14:12
but muppets link is dated march 2010
.........oops.............
But Muppets link is dated March 2010
typical bloody muppet
ffs
x
Angusjim
29-05-2013, 14:36
But Muppets link is dated March 2010
But at least it was factual:whistle:
Red Devil
29-05-2013, 16:43
A little paragraph in the Sunday Times travel supplement caught my eye, it said a judge fined a man from New York £1600 for renting out his apartment to a Russian tourist, breaking a law that bars the rental of private apartments there for less than 30 days.
Perhaps the Canarian judges might now think their own fines are still excessive in comparison to that one.
I hadnt heard of the Home rental site he was on, Airbnb, but had a quick look and guess what, well over 1000 rentals in the Canaries.
It shows a picture of each rental owner along with their apartment :laugh:lots of Russians advertising!
Altamira
29-05-2013, 19:02
New Law jumps through another hoop -not a lot of detail but some movement on Villas may be forthcoming !
http://eldia.es/canarias/2013-05-28/15-Aprobada-ley-turistica-impide-construir-hoteles-cuatro-estrellas.htm
New Tourist Laws I see from the JA website that the new laws were published today. I see there may be some good news for some villa owners. Unfortunately no sign of good news for individual tourist apartment owners, just a lot of terminology that may yet prove to be troublesome.
just testing !
There could be a large demand for more air passengers this summer for the canaries, that would be the former apartment tourists that the govt and it's inspectors have made illegal.
Lose your cough this summer with sole agent
A one stop solution to combat yorkshire retardation.
x
The Canarian government yesterday approved clauses for the new law so as to provide a framework within which more than 5,000 villas in the Canaries that are currently residential will be able to be used touristically; moreover, their plots will be reclassified at Government level, thus bypassing where necessary individual Cabildo restrictions and Ayuntamiento land usage designations. The law will also considerably reduce the “coastal band” for villa legitimacy: the Government had been aiming for a 500m exclusion area but this has now been reduced to 200m, and even further to 100m if in a clifftop area. Lanzarote, which is where around half of the properties affected are located, is likely to benefit especially from the measure.
I've waited a long time for this day. I told you this was going to happen way back at the start of this, and have been subjected to ridicule all the way through. Now a number of people on here are looking rather stupid.
Quote from Loaded:
"Can someone make a compilation of his best bits"
My best bits are all the statements I have made over the past 2 years or so which have now subsequently come true.
So lets instead have a look at your best bits.
I will retract every word of this on learning that the tourism industry in the Canaries is to be modified in such a way as to even partially benefit your (and others) position(s).
However, I don't expect to be writing a retraction anytime soon despite the noises in that article - or any others either. Muppet.
Ooops! Please retract away Muppet.
Touristic properties are all going to be brought into line and Residential properties will stay as they are - RESIDENTIAL. Bobmac
Ooops!
I think you might be eating your words before next Christmas Day. Doreen
Ooops! That was Christmas 2011 Doreen and I'm still going hungry.
They will never allow holiday rentals in residential areas or bring in a registration scheme. 9Plus
Ooops!
The simple solution is what they are trying to pull off
Residential for residents
Touristic for tourists
If there are a lack of beds then they will hand out a few licenses to the correct applicants,
DO YOU people not see anything beyond the first stage? 9Plus
Ooops!
If I was a betting man I would give 7/2 that this is just a rumour and 1/99 that it is a crock of ****e. Simon-M
Ooops!
I do not believe they are out to stop all holiday rentals in currently residential areas in the Canaries.
Does anyone disagree?
i think everyone disagrees...... Loaded.
Ooops!
Before I sign off and wish you well with your sole agent debate, I notice Alotca are claiming credit for this news.
Nonsense!
Quote from JA on 25/9/12:
"Alotca is never going to campaign for private renting on residential complexes."
A separate Association on behalf of villa owners was set up elsewhere to do just that, with meetings with tourist authorities etc at the highest level over the past 9 months or so. So for Alotca to turn round now and claim the credit, saying they were "working in the background"......!!!
Its only villas and only if they are more than 200 metres from the sea, hardly a flooding of the market is it? I suspect a large number of tourists will go elsewhere if they cant be next to the sea, I bet there are loads of villas in Greece right next to the sea
Ours and all the villas around us will be grouped as too close to the sea for a start.
Another epic fail from Hughsyb again
There is a fundamental difference between a Villa and an apartment.
From the very outset the primary objective campaigned for was a change in the law with respect to Villas, and that's exactly what is being proposed in the new draft.
The concept that there would be any change to the law in respect to apartments - whether residential or touristic, was never on the cards. Any thoughts that changes might be possible or even discussed vanished once the early meetings held between Tourismo and the campaign groups.
Therefore no retraction necessary.
The clampdown on the private letting of apartments as has developed in the past years looks set to continue, and perhaps even more forcefully, unless Nelson wins his argument in Europe of course.
hughsyb also said there was nothing happening, yet another epic fail.
Not true.
I told you a long time ago that the law was being changed and that in the meantime, fines would be issued.
You really should pay attention more instead of clogging up the topic with inane comments.
As for Muppet, only one comment - wriggling.
Now hughsby, play fair ...
25 Dec 2010
There is no need to lobby Doreen because the banning of holiday lettings in residential areas in the Canary Islands will never happen. I only came on here to explain the reasons why it won't happen to people who quite understandably wouldn't know the wider picture.
Another #FAIL for Hughsby I suggest.
I don't do wriggling or retractions
Yes, that should have read "the banning of all holiday lettings in residential areas in the Canary Islands".
If you check my future posts, I made that clear.
Yes, that should have read "the banning of all holiday lettings in residential areas in the Canary Islands".
If you check my future posts, I made that clear.
hughsyb would it be possible to post the name of the association who fought on behalf
of villa owners I always thought it was ALOTCA I,m surprised to hear it wasn,t
I,m not sniping just really interested to know.
It's Lanzarote Property Owners.
Incidently, 1 or 2 on here will be disappointed to know that my villa is well outside the 200m exclusion zone.
Yes, that should have read "the banning of all holiday lettings in residential areas in the Canary Islands".
If you check my future posts, I made that clear.
But it was the quote without "all" that I was replying to :)
I think many forum members had issue with someone saying There Is No Problem when clearly people were being fined ... similar to "legal" advice recently given on here :(
Thanks for coming hughsyb
Like I've said before holiday letting in residential areas will never happen, if you want to read without being selective, I explained a shift in land classification can happen ie it wouldn't be residential then would it, ie they will never allow holiday rental in residential areas.
Now that's what you call a wriggle masterclass!
Angusjim
30-05-2013, 16:29
Now that's what you call a wriggle masterclass!
Nelson will be so glad your are back :laugh:
Now that's what you call a wriggle masterclass!
Ill simplify it for you, Holiday lets on a residential complex, apartment, villa will never happen.
When i explained about changing land class you didn't understand then either.
Whilst an area is classified as Residential "no holiday rentals"
25 Dec 2010
There is no need to lobby Doreen because the banning of holiday lettings in residential areas in the Canary Islands will never happen. I only came on here to explain the reasons why it won't happen to people who quite understandably wouldn't know the wider picture.
Now please name one residential complex or apartment in the Canaries that is legally allowed to rent to tourists...
junglejim
30-05-2013, 18:23
I'm not sure , my Spanish may be rusty but doesn't Article 32 of new law in Boletin allow for change of classification ?
Artículo 32.- Transformación de usos residenciales en villas.
1. El planeamiento urbanístico, o los planes de modernización, mejora e incremento de la competitividad, podrán delimitar en las zonas turísticas áreas en que se autorice la conversión de viviendas individualizadas y aisladas a la modalidad de villas, recalificando las parcelas al uso turístico, cuando cumplan los requisitos definidos reglamentariamente.
2. En los suelos urbanos consolidados no se admitirá un porcentaje de plazas de alojamiento turístico dedicadas a villas superior al 30% del total del ámbito considerado.
That information is more for the Townhalls and Cabildo etc
Wow nice of hughsyb to pop up and make himself look even more wrong - welcome back!
canary boy
31-05-2013, 13:23
Nelson why don't you scan the websites of all estate agents marketing properties without the new energy certificate, the same inspectors from the illegal lettings are enforcing the new Energy certificate?
Nelson why don't you scan the websites of all estate agents marketing properties without the new energy certificate, the same inspectors from the illegal lettings are enforcing the new Energy certificate?
On the Spanish radio this morning, they announced that the new law relating to the "energy certificates" would come into force tomorrow.They explained that there wouldn't be any fines issued until September.Then the fine for not having the certificate could be up to 6,000 Euros.
When a government says never all it means is not unless it suits us to change the law this applies to governments everywhere including the canaries
junglejim
01-06-2013, 09:54
I see Mr Hatrick has published another article in opposition to JA´s and Snr.Escobedo´s opinion in Island Connections this week !
This will revive this thread no end ,I´m sure !
http://pdf.islandconnections.eu/696/pdf/island_connections_017.pdf
Edited - I can't be bothered
Albatros
01-06-2013, 12:54
Slightly off topic but .....
It would appear that holiday letting causes upsets universally. In this instance a problem in Wales.
BBC Report (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22738741)
Quite an interesting read.
Seems that there is a growing disagreement within the legal profession as to interpretation of Canarian Law and on the opinion of the Canarian Judge who is to hear the cases in due course and a suggestion the Judge could be biased.
Luckily it's not a situation I find myself actually in, nor needing to make a decision on, but if I were, I would be somewhat tempted to put my faith in being represented by someone who knew the Canarian and Spanish legal systems and who learnt their trade here, than someone who learned their trade in what is, essentially, a foreign country where practises and opinions of law may be quite different -
Just saying..... !
golf birdie
01-06-2013, 14:43
Quite an interesting read.
Seems that there is a growing disagreement within the legal profession as to interpretation of Canarian Law and on the opinion of the Canarian Judge who is to hear the cases in due course and a suggestion the Judge could be biased.
Luckily it's not a situation I find myself actually in, nor needing to make a decision on, but if I were, I would be somewhat tempted to put my faith in being represented by someone who knew the Canarian and Spanish legal systems and who learnt their trade here, than someone who learned their trade in what is, essentially, a foreign country where practises and opinions of law may be quite different -
Just saying..... !
as has been proved many times in high profile UK cases the law of the land is often over ruled by the european court. If it went down this route it would not matter which country they learnt their trade in.
Slightly my point though - rule of the land and all that - who is most likely to have the best grasp of the rule(s) of the land
Slightly my point though - rule of the land and all that - who is most likely to have the best grasp of the rule(s) of the land
John the còcky solicitor?
not sure how to cough loudly in writing !
Peterrayner
01-06-2013, 16:56
Its an interesting opinion and as such is has valid as anyone elses..... :)
and given its a qualified opinion then depending on how many fellow profesionals would be in agreement it would be interesting to see it tested in a higher court(s) which where this sorry mess is ultimately bound I think.
To be fair to the alotca lawyers though, and also to clarify what John hatrick has said, bolkestein does not help residential renters. John hatrick has made it clear that bolkestein does not help residential renters , only touristic renters who can not be forced into sole agency and the 1995 laws.
The majority of fined clients of alotca must be residential ones, surely the majority of those fined must be residential renters anyway?
Bolkestein only helps touristic renters, the issue is should the alotca lawyers agree to settle on their residential renters and at the same time vigouresly defend their touristic clients, in a cheaper class action, all the way to Europe .
Clearly John hatrick may form such a class action for touristic renters as we progress, presumably clients from other lawyers will be able to join John hatricks class action.
To be fair to the alotca lawyers though, and also to clarify what John hatrick has said, bolkestein does not help residential renters. John hatrick has made it clear that bolkestein does not help residential renters , only touristic renters who can not be forced into sole agency and the 1995 laws.
The majority of fined clients of alotca must be residential ones, surely the majority of those fined must be residential renters anyway?
Bolkestein only helps touristic renters, the issue is should the alotca lawyers agree to settle on their residential renters and at the same time vigouresly defend their touristic clients, in a cheaper class action, all the way to Europe .
Clearly John hatrick may form such a class action for touristic renters as we progress, presumably clients from other lawyers will be able to join John hatricks class action.
Would be great to hear how his clients are getting on actually - are they going to the European courts or settling at 5000 like this judge suggests ALOTCAS clients do ......
.......strange that he didn't update us on how his clients and class action are doing in the latest article - preferring to criticize how Escobedo and AlOTCA are getting on - and of course imply that the judge is a staunch "nationalist" (can an islander be a nationalist) who will do anything to stop anyone challenging his archipelagos laws .
I mean the judge would say that wouldn't he? He's probably got shares in Konrads empire and sits on the board at ASHotel..... Zzzzzzz
Its an interesting opinion and as such is has valid as anyone elses..... :)
and given its a qualified opinion then depending on how many fellow profesionals would be in agreement it would be interesting to see it tested in a higher court(s) which where this sorry mess is ultimately bound I think.
Which sense of "qualified" do you mean Peter - have we any record of legal qualifications in Spanish or European Law on this particular lawyer's CV
To be fair to the alotca lawyers though, and also to clarify what John hatrick has said, bolkestein does not help residential renters. John hatrick has made it clear that bolkestein does not help residential renters , only touristic renters who can not be forced into sole agency and the 1995 laws.
The majority of fined clients of alotca must be residential ones, surely the majority of those fined must be residential renters anyway?
Bolkestein only helps touristic renters, the issue is should the alotca lawyers agree to settle on their residential renters and at the same time vigouresly defend their touristic clients, in a cheaper class action, all the way to Europe .
Clearly John hatrick may form such a class action for touristic renters as we progress, presumably clients from other lawyers will be able to join John hatricks class action.
You could do it yourself, nelson ... strange that JH has not already started one, no fees or even clients needed :)
EU law - which has equal force with national law - confers rights and obligations on the authorities in each Member State, as well as individuals and businesses. The authorities in each Member State are responsible for implementing EU legislation in national law and enforcing it correctly, and they must guarantee citizens’ rights under these laws. Anyone may lodge a complaint with the Commission against a Member State for any measure (law, regulation or administrative action) or practice attributable to a Member State which they consider incompatible with a provision or a principle of EU law.
You do not have to demonstrate a formal interest in bringing proceedings. Neither do you have to prove that you are principally and directly concerned by the infringement complained about. To be admissible, a complaint has to relate to an infringement of EU law by a Member State. It cannot therefore concern a private dispute.
http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/your_rights/your_rights_en.htm
EDIT: Didn't our own Norme de Plume use this when (successfully) complaining about discrimination in the taxation of non-residents
Strange too that the opinion of the judges that originally mentioned the bolkestein issue (as reported in Johns first article) is correct and holier than holy - but this new judge who is actually working on the cases we're all talking about (not hiking guides and scuba schools) MUST have an ulterior motive for suggesting a class action.....
Some interesting reading courtesy of El Pais (and Juba's link)
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/06/inenglish/1367842766_596787.html
Your home is not a hotel
Government to change law on renting out of privately owned properties to tourists
Hotel owners say this tourism conflict can be resolved with regulation
Red Devil
02-06-2013, 00:02
Hope I can post this on here, but look at the site www.laymyhat.com and then click on the Spain thread, throws up some interesting comments
junglejim
02-06-2013, 00:23
Some interesting reading courtesy of El Pais (and Juba's link)
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/06/inenglish/1367842766_596787.html
Your home is not a hotel
Government to change law on renting out of privately owned properties to tourists
Hotel owners say this tourism conflict can be resolved with regulation
Interesting to see where the main pressure is coming from in this (no real surprise!) but not really as altruistic as the Boletin describes IMO.
To me the change in 1994 LAU will raise more complaints and opposition as it will affect many Spanish Nationals and is a fundamental change to their rights which they are usually very protective of.
At least it´s good to see an article in English (even from El Pais ) that is giving out some facts rather than sensational headlines - the debate trundles on !
Hope I can post this on here, but look at the site www.laymyhat.com and then click on the Spain thread, throws up some interesting comments
A site full of no knowledgers of anything Spain, just a bunch of moaning people
Angusjim
02-06-2013, 08:13
To be fair to the alotca lawyers though, and also to clarify what John hatrick has said, bolkestein does not help residential renters. John hatrick has made it clear that bolkestein does not help residential renters , only touristic renters who can not be forced into sole agency and the 1995 laws.
The majority of fined clients of alotca must be residential ones, surely the majority of those fined must be residential renters anyway?
Bolkestein only helps touristic renters, the issue is should the alotca lawyers agree to settle on their residential renters and at the same time vigouresly defend their touristic clients, in a cheaper class action, all the way to Europe .
Clearly John hatrick may form such a class action for touristic renters as we progress, presumably clients from other lawyers will be able to join John hatricks class action.
So Nelson the big question is do you have balls to take on the fight and go to court or will you pay the lower amount and move on you seem very reluctant to say what you are actually going to do.
Red Devil
02-06-2013, 08:24
A site full of no knowledgers of anything Spain, just a bunch of moaning people
Cheers 9Plus
Peterrayner
02-06-2013, 08:24
I think some owners will have to decide if they want to take their appeals to the next level which I assume will be the High Court (in Spain).
I think the EU Commission is a long way off just at the moment.
junglejim
02-06-2013, 08:53
There would appear to be some other prominent dissenting Canarian voices who don´t think Bolkenstein is a dead duck , as well as being unhappy with the direction of the new law -a little bit of inter-island friction coming into it too !
Some seem to think they aren´t providing what the tourist wants - who´d a thunk it!
http://www.laopinion.es/economia/2013/06/02/expertos-avisan-ley-turistica-aleja-inversion/479094.html
Altamira
03-06-2013, 10:17
New Tourist Laws I see from the JA website that the new laws are now in force.
There are questions being asked, what is the new legal position regarding 3 month lets etc of tourist apartments?
Also what about condominiums, do they refer to new builds or conversions of touristic complexes?
anyone know yet how a villa owner would know if their villa qualifies for a licence under the new letting laws
and how they would go forward to get one,does,nt seem very clear from whats written on JA,s site.
delderek
03-06-2013, 18:49
anyone know yet how a villa owner would know if their villa qualifies for a licence under the new letting laws
and how they would go forward to get one,does,nt seem very clear from whats written on JA,s site.
That's probably because the law is probably very unclear. JA does her best to make it as clear as possible, and I don't think you will ever get a clear cut black and white straight forward answer. That's why lawyers earn a fortune
Not sure why no one is giving us clear bullet points about the new law? Ja is saying we can't get a translation , usually we get to know fairly quickly by someone's translation , the main points.
What with the ja / alotca policy of let's not worry about the awful draft law proposals until its actually law attitude of the past weeks, it's starting to make me wonder if the new law has the dreaded removal of residents from touristics clearly in black and white.
It seems we are being left without any guidance on the main points of the new law at all, as if it has been written in mandarin .
Does this new law contain something so terrible for the residential touristics that it's better to keep them in the dark?
Since when have you listened to guidance ?
Altamira
04-06-2013, 09:47
Not sure why no one is giving us clear bullet points about the new law? Ja is saying we can't get a translation , usually we get to know fairly quickly by someone's translation , the main points.
What with the ja / alotca policy of let's not worry about the awful draft law proposals until its actually law attitude of the past weeks, it's starting to make me wonder if the new law has the dreaded removal of residents from touristics clearly in black and white.
It seems we are being left without any guidance on the main points of the new law at all, as if it has been written in mandarin .
Does this new law contain something so terrible for the residential touristics that it's better to keep them in the dark? New Tourist Laws Normally laws mean what they say, however this new law appears to be drafted in such a way that it is difficult for a lay person to understand it. I personally don't like the confusing way the new laws are drafted, it is possible to google translate the law, but much of its meaning is lost due to the failings of google translations. I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?
New Tourist Laws Normally laws mean what they say, however this new law appears to be drafted in such a way that it is difficult for a lay person to understand it. I personally don't like the confusing way the new laws are drafted, it is possible to google translate the law, but much of its meaning is lost due to the failings of google translations. I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?
I'm sure Janet will not mind me quoting her reply to someone asking for a translation/interpretation
That’s asking too much, I would think. It would be a huge task and would take an incredible amount of time … and to offer it generally for free. I don’t think it can be done. These are lawyers, after all, and their time is money, and they are paid for their professional opinion. I’ve provided an awful lot here free of charge, but a general purpose legal interpretation … that’s not on, really.
Even for someone with a good knowledge of Spanish, the new law is confusing to read ... certainly the article on "condominiums" where max residential usage is to be six months leaves me baffled as to how it is to apply to existing complexes. At least they do stipulate that new units must state these provisions in the escritura along with an explanatory document.
The preamble states
Otro de los desafíos que aborda la nueva regulación es la reconducción de la residencialización de los establecimientos turísticos, que afecta a varias zonas de nuestros núcleos turísticos, en ocasiones con gran amplitud. Para ello, la ley, tras declarar el deber de atenerse al uso efectivo que ostenten las parcelas turísticas según el planeamiento y las autorizaciones obtenidas, ofrece diversos criterios para la especialización de las distintas áreas en el uso más adecuado, residencial o turístico, y los supuestos excepcionales de compatibilidad, posibilitando, en ciertos casos, la reconversión de determinadas promociones residenciales en la modalidad turística de villas.
Artículo 30.- Hoteles en régimen de condominio.
1. Son hoteles en régimen de condominio aquellos cuya titularidad dominical se encuentra dividida en diferentes unidades registrales o en participaciones indivisas sobre una finca, si bien la explotación unificada del inmueble
se lleva a cabo mediante su cesión a una empresa de gestión para que ésta desarrolle la actividad turística en los términos previstos en este artículo.
2. Los hoteles en régimen de condominio deben cumplir los siguientes requisitos:
a) Que las autorizaciones administrativas previas de las plazas de alojamiento promovidas bajo esta
modalidad, sean otorgadas en virtud de lo previstos en los supuestos establecidos en el apartado 3 del artículo 4 de la presente ley, o que la reconversión a esta modalidad de cualquier establecimiento de alojamiento existente, venga precedida de la citada renovación o rehabilitación.
b) Los adquirentes de unidades de alojamiento o de participaciones indivisas se comprometerán a que el inmueble en su conjunto, incluyendo las zonas comunes, sea gestionado por una única empresa explotadora, mediante la suscripción del correspondiente contrato, por un plazo no inferior a diez años. A tales efectos, los copropietarios podrán constituir una sociedad mercantil con personalidad jurídica independiente de la que ostenta la titularidad dominical, en su caso, con objeto de que gestione la explotación del hotel, pudiendo ésta cederlo a su vez a terceros, si así se pacta, subrogándose a las obligaciones sobre la gestión de la empresa cedente.
c) En ningún caso podrá darse uso residencial a las unidades de alojamiento, prevaleciendo su naturaleza mercantil y turística sobre cualquier otro fin. A estos efectos se presume que existe uso residencial cuando en el contrato a que se refiere el apartado anterior se otorgue una reserva de uso a los copropietarios por un periodo superior a seis meses al año, o cuando el uso efectivo de la unidad de alojamiento por los propietarios supere el período señalado.
d) Sin perjuicio de las obligaciones de información dispuestas en la normativa sobre defensa y protección de los consumidores y usuarios, los promotores de inmuebles turísticos para su explotación como hoteles en régimen de condominio, deberán facilitar previamente al otorgamiento de la escritura de compraventa de las unidades de alojamiento o las participaciones indivisas, un documento informativo en el que se consignará la afectación del inmueble al uso turístico y las demás condiciones que deban establecerse en la escritura para que se adquiera la condición de copropietario, conforme se establezca reglamentariamente.
e) Antes de iniciar la comercialización de un hotel en régimen de condominio mediante la transmisión de unidades de alojamiento o participaciones indivisas, se procederá a inscribir en el Registro de la Propiedad mediante nota marginal de la finca o fincas afectadas:
A) La afección al uso turístico que recae sobre la unidad de alojamiento, y que este uso no podrá ser alterado salvo por decisión unánime de los (co)propietarios, y siempre y cuando el planeamiento lo permita.
B) Las condiciones de cesión de uso a la empresa gestora.
3. El Gobierno, a propuesta del departamento autonómico competente en materia de turismo, podrá regular los
incentivos que se consideren aptos para promover esta modalidad empresarial.
http://www.parcan.es/files/pub/bop/8l/2013/153/bo153.pdf
Angusjim
04-06-2013, 10:24
I'm sure Janet will not mind me quoting her reply to someone asking for a translation/interpretation
That’s asking too much, I would think. It would be a huge task and would take an incredible amount of time … and to offer it generally for free. I don’t think it can be done. These are lawyers, after all, and their time is money, and they are paid for their professional opinion. I’ve provided an awful lot here free of charge, but a general purpose legal interpretation … that’s not on, really.
Even for someone with a good knowledge of Spanish, the new law is confusing to read ... certainly the article on "condominiums" where max residential usage is to be six months leaves me baffled as to how it is to apply to existing complexes. At least they do stipulate that new units must state these provisions in the escritura along with an explanatory document.
The preamble states
Otro de los desafíos que aborda la nueva regulación es la reconducción de la residencialización de los establecimientos turísticos, que afecta a varias zonas de nuestros núcleos turísticos, en ocasiones con gran amplitud. Para ello, la ley, tras declarar el deber de atenerse al uso efectivo que ostenten las parcelas turísticas según el planeamiento y las autorizaciones obtenidas, ofrece diversos criterios para la especialización de las distintas áreas en el uso más adecuado, residencial o turístico, y los supuestos excepcionales de compatibilidad, posibilitando, en ciertos casos, la reconversión de determinadas promociones residenciales en la modalidad turística de villas.
Artículo 30.- Hoteles en régimen de condominio.
1. Son hoteles en régimen de condominio aquellos cuya titularidad dominical se encuentra dividida en diferentes unidades registrales o en participaciones indivisas sobre una finca, si bien la explotación unificada del inmueble
se lleva a cabo mediante su cesión a una empresa de gestión para que ésta desarrolle la actividad turística en los términos previstos en este artículo.
2. Los hoteles en régimen de condominio deben cumplir los siguientes requisitos:
a) Que las autorizaciones administrativas previas de las plazas de alojamiento promovidas bajo esta
modalidad, sean otorgadas en virtud de lo previstos en los supuestos establecidos en el apartado 3 del artículo 4 de la presente ley, o que la reconversión a esta modalidad de cualquier establecimiento de alojamiento existente, venga precedida de la citada renovación o rehabilitación.
b) Los adquirentes de unidades de alojamiento o de participaciones indivisas se comprometerán a que el inmueble en su conjunto, incluyendo las zonas comunes, sea gestionado por una única empresa explotadora, mediante la suscripción del correspondiente contrato, por un plazo no inferior a diez años. A tales efectos, los copropietarios podrán constituir una sociedad mercantil con personalidad jurídica independiente de la que ostenta la titularidad dominical, en su caso, con objeto de que gestione la explotación del hotel, pudiendo ésta cederlo a su vez a terceros, si así se pacta, subrogándose a las obligaciones sobre la gestión de la empresa cedente.
c) En ningún caso podrá darse uso residencial a las unidades de alojamiento, prevaleciendo su naturaleza mercantil y turística sobre cualquier otro fin. A estos efectos se presume que existe uso residencial cuando en el contrato a que se refiere el apartado anterior se otorgue una reserva de uso a los copropietarios por un periodo superior a seis meses al año, o cuando el uso efectivo de la unidad de alojamiento por los propietarios supere el período señalado.
d) Sin perjuicio de las obligaciones de información dispuestas en la normativa sobre defensa y protección de los consumidores y usuarios, los promotores de inmuebles turísticos para su explotación como hoteles en régimen de condominio, deberán facilitar previamente al otorgamiento de la escritura de compraventa de las unidades de alojamiento o las participaciones indivisas, un documento informativo en el que se consignará la afectación del inmueble al uso turístico y las demás condiciones que deban establecerse en la escritura para que se adquiera la condición de copropietario, conforme se establezca reglamentariamente.
e) Antes de iniciar la comercialización de un hotel en régimen de condominio mediante la transmisión de unidades de alojamiento o participaciones indivisas, se procederá a inscribir en el Registro de la Propiedad mediante nota marginal de la finca o fincas afectadas:
A) La afección al uso turístico que recae sobre la unidad de alojamiento, y que este uso no podrá ser alterado salvo por decisión unánime de los (co)propietarios, y siempre y cuando el planeamiento lo permita.
B) Las condiciones de cesión de uso a la empresa gestora.
3. El Gobierno, a propuesta del departamento autonómico competente en materia de turismo, podrá regular los
incentivos que se consideren aptos para promover esta modalidad empresarial.
http://www.parcan.es/files/pub/bop/8l/2013/153/bo153.pdf
All seems pretty straighforward:crazy::laugh:
Not sure why no one is giving us clear bullet points about the new law? Ja is saying we can't get a translation , usually we get to know fairly quickly by someone's translation , the main points.
What with the ja / alotca policy of let's not worry about the awful draft law proposals until its actually law attitude of the past weeks, it's starting to make me wonder if the new law has the dreaded removal of residents from touristics clearly in black and white.
It seems we are being left without any guidance on the main points of the new law at all, as if it has been written in mandarin .
Does this new law contain something so terrible for the residential touristics that it's better to keep them in the dark?
How clearly does it have to worded ??
From JA -
"Another clause which has caused great concern is whether owners will be able to live in apartments which are or will be classified as touristic. The article of the law covering this is number 25, and it allows for intervention in areas that are currently mixed tourist and residential with the object "de encauzar su especialización en áreas de uso turístico exclusivo, de uso residencial exclusivo, o de compatibilidad" (of channeling its specialization into exclusively tourist use, OR of exclusive residential use, or "compatibility").
My own lay interpretation of this is that even if one has a property that is currently residential that were required to become touristic, there is nothing in the law that would prevent the owner living in it permanently (or letting it out on residential long lets). Forced touristic designation should only mean that the property becomes like a touristic one already is ... i.e. that if it is to be rented out at all, it must be done through the sole agent.
Several lawyers now have said that it cannot mean more than this, and that if "forced tourist classification" were treated as "forced tourist use it would be in contravention of the Spanish Constitution."
If you don't accept that, I suggest you pay a legal person who is an expert in Canarian Law to give you a translation and legal opinion on what it actually means.
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New Tourist Laws Normally laws mean what they say, however this new law appears to be drafted in such a way that it is difficult for a lay person to understand it. I personally don't like the confusing way the new laws are drafted, it is possible to google translate the law, but much of its meaning is lost due to the failings of google translations. I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?
Why would you think they have that ?? If you were in the UK and didn't speak English, you would need to pay a legal person who is an expert in UK Law to give you a translation and legal opinion on what it actually meant, so why do you expect someone in the Canaries to do it for you free ??
Altamira
04-06-2013, 11:17
How clearly does it have to worded ??
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Why would you think they have that ?? If you were in the UK and didn't speak English, you would need to pay a legal person who is an expert in UK Law to give you a translation and legal opinion on what it actually meant, so why do you expect someone in the Canaries to do it for you free ??
Legal Advice I have never said that the legal advice should be free, I have only asked if it was available. I would have thought that the ALOTCA Legal Eagles would have closely examined the new laws from proposal stage all the way through to completion. Therefore they must have a reasonable understanding what it all means and if they don't then what are the rest of us to think.
Not sure why no one is giving us clear bullet points about the new law? Ja is saying we can't get a translation , usually we get to know fairly quickly by someone's translation , the main points.
What with the ja / alotca policy of let's not worry about the awful draft law proposals until its actually law attitude of the past weeks, it's starting to make me wonder if the new law has the dreaded removal of residents from touristics clearly in black and white.
It seems we are being left without any guidance on the main points of the new law at all, as if it has been written in mandarin .
Does this new law contain something so terrible for the residential touristics that it's better to keep them in the dark?
New Tourist Laws Normally laws mean what they say, however this new law appears to be drafted in such a way that it is difficult for a lay person to understand it. I personally don't like the confusing way the new laws are drafted, it is possible to google translate the law, but much of its meaning is lost due to the failings of google translations. I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?
Legal Advice I have never said that the legal advice should be free, I have only asked if it was available. I would have thought that the ALOTCA Legal Eagles would have closely examined the new laws from proposal stage all the way through to completion. Therefore they must have a reasonable understanding what it all means and if they don't then what are the rest of us to think.
What you said was - "I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?"
That to me looks very much like you are expecting them to translate it into English and give a legal interpretation of what it means without paying a fee for it. Have you asked Nelson if his mate John has supplied him with the details yet ??
At the moment, I believe that all their efforts are going into the preparation for the Class Action on the fines.
Altamira
04-06-2013, 13:13
Legal Advice Hello BobMac. I was extremely careful not to ask for the legal advice to be free, however since you have raised the question, I suppose it would be a nice gesture or even if it was readily made available at a reduced fee, for the many owners who may yet need that info. Perhaps the Canary Government may make the legal interpretation available, this would perhaps make up for the upset caused by the enforcement of 1995 laws and the resulting confusion surrounding the new laws.
Altamira, you and nelson could get it officially translated and sell it for a reduced fee.
Or better still, book an appointment with Nelson and his lawyer to have it explained, alongside your specific set of circumstances which will be different from others.
JA has, in my view, done a fantastic job of providing information and updates as things have gradually become clearer, and at the same time as people like Nellie have done nothing but critisise the organisation to which the lady concerned belongs, and indeed helped to form.
I suggest you've both got a bloody nerve.
Not sure why no one is giving us clear bullet points about the new law? Ja is saying we can't get a translation , usually we get to know fairly quickly by someone's translation , the main points.
What with the ja / alotca policy of let's not worry about the awful draft law proposals until its actually law attitude of the past weeks, it's starting to make me wonder if the new law has the dreaded removal of residents from touristics clearly in black and white.
It seems we are being left without any guidance on the main points of the new law at all, as if it has been written in mandarin .
Does this new law contain something so terrible for the residential touristics that it's better to keep them in the dark?
New Tourist Laws Normally laws mean what they say, however this new law appears to be drafted in such a way that it is difficult for a lay person to understand it. I personally don't like the confusing way the new laws are drafted, it is possible to google translate the law, but much of its meaning is lost due to the failings of google translations. I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?
Legal Advice Hello BobMac. I was extremely careful not to ask for the legal advice to be free, however since you have raised the question, I suppose it would be a nice gesture or even if it was readily made available at a reduced fee, for the many owners who may yet need that info. Perhaps the Canary Government may make the legal interpretation available, this would perhaps make up for the upset caused by the enforcement of 1995 laws and the resulting confusion surrounding the new laws.
Why ??
They are the official government of the Canaries where the official language is SPANISH and they are only required to supply the information in the official language of the Canaries, just like the UK supplies all laws in English.
As the impact of the new law will depend on the exact circumstances of the person asking the question, I suggest that you pay a lawyer to give you their legal opinion on the impact this new law will have on you, making sure that the lawyer you pick is one who speaks fluent Spanish and is actually qualified in Spanish & Canarian law.
The only people who were upset by the decision to enforce the 1995 law were people like Nelson, who by his own admission was fully aware of it when he bought both apartments, who suddenly found their totally illegal source of income turned off.
There is no link between the enforcement of the old law and the newly announced law other than that it makes the old law obsolete from now on; I don't see that as confusing.
junglejim
04-06-2013, 15:15
"Why would you think they have that ?? If you were in the UK and didn't speak English, you would need to pay a legal person who is an expert in UK Law to give you a translation and legal opinion on what it actually meant, so why do you expect someone in the Canaries to do it for you free ?? "
BobMac - if find the interpretation difficult with a reasonable knowledge of Spanish , there are also several articles in local Spanish Press against some parts of the legislation (on different self interests ).
However in UK you would have recourse to something like Citizen´s Advice Bureau for free that would give you advice -I´m sure some proficient Estate Agent here will come up with a free translation or you could go into one as a "prospective buyer" and ask them to explain !
The issue is ,now that the law has been put into statute ,will the Canarian Government act on it or sit on it like they did after a few months in 1995?
There is no link between the enforcement of the old law and the newly announced law other than that it makes the old law obsolete from now on; I don't see that as confusing.
The "old" law is not obselete unless I've missed something in the new law - it does modify parts of the 7/1995 law but that law is still law as is the tourist standards law from 2009.
New Tourist Laws Normally laws mean what they say, however this new law appears to be drafted in such a way that it is difficult for a lay person to understand it. I personally don't like the confusing way the new laws are drafted, it is possible to google translate the law, but much of its meaning is lost due to the failings of google translations. I think the English speaking community need to have this law properly translated and then a legal interpretation of what it may actually mean. I would have thought that the JA/ALOTCA group would have had all of that information readily at hand, so why not make it available?
"Why would you think they have that ?? If you were in the UK and didn't speak English, you would need to pay a legal person who is an expert in UK Law to give you a translation and legal opinion on what it actually meant, so why do you expect someone in the Canaries to do it for you free ?? "
BobMac - if find the interpretation difficult with a reasonable knowledge of Spanish , there are also several articles in local Spanish Press against some parts of the legislation (on different self interests ).
However in UK you would have recourse to something like Citizen´s Advice Bureau for free that would give you advice -I´m sure some proficient Estate Agent here will come up with a free translation or you could go into one as a "prospective buyer" and ask them to explain !
The issue is ,now that the law has been put into statute ,will the Canarian Government act on it or sit on it like they did after a few months in 1995?
I don't have a problem with the translation, I was replying to Altamira who seems to think that JA/AOCTA should supply the information in English free of charge.
Altamira
04-06-2013, 15:51
I don't have a problem with the translation, I was replying to Altamira who seems to think that JA/AOCTA should supply the information in English free of charge.Legal Advice Hello Bobmac, Firstly my comments are not meant to be critical of JA or ALOTCA, Secondly I did not ask for the legal advice to be free, it is you who firstly mentioned free legal advice and for Muppet to suggest that I have a nerve asking for free legal advice is ridiculous. I can only suggest that people read more carefully to what is actually being written and to follow the relevant laws of 1995 & 2013.
essexeddie
04-06-2013, 16:31
You will find in the UK all government departments supply all their information in many, many languages.
Even the local council's do as well.
Or better still, book an appointment with Nelson and his lawyer to have it explained, alongside your specific set of circumstances which will be different from others.
JA has, in my view, done a fantastic job of providing information and updates as things have gradually become clearer, and at the same time as people like Nellie have done nothing but critisise the organisation to which the lady concerned belongs, and indeed helped to form.
I suggest you've both got a bloody nerve.
I agree totally with the Muppet,Lady J does a sterling job bringing all types of current
affairs to the attention of the non-spanish speaking ex-pats and owners in the U.K.
she must spend long hours at the computer and deserves only praise.
Legal Advice Hello Bobmac, Firstly my comments are not meant to be critical of JA or ALOTCA, Secondly I did not ask for the legal advice to be free, it is you who firstly mentioned free legal advice and for Muppet to suggest that I have a nerve asking for free legal advice is ridiculous. I can only suggest that people read more carefully to what is actually being written and to follow the relevant laws of 1995 & 2013.
Well aware of the laws thanks.
Whatever your situation may be, in the first place the new law(s) was only published a few days ago - to expect those who volunteer their time to try to help others to publish word for word, blow by blow translations in a matter of moments is simply unfair, and to critisise those involved for not doing so is totally unfunded, especially before the legal wizzards have had a chance to seek clarifications where necessary
If you want blow by blow advice, go speak to a lawyer - I hear there is an experienced English chap available
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You will find in the UK all government departments supply all their information in many, many languages.
Even the local council's do as well.
This, however, is Spain
Are sole agents still overlords?
essexeddie
04-06-2013, 18:35
This, however, is Spain
Then its about time they got into the real world.
A country has no obligation to speak any other language than their own
Their position seems to be unchanged (sole agents) ... and soon to be joined by "Condominiums" who must hand over to one agency for 10 years or form their own company ...
Altamira
04-06-2013, 19:23
Well aware of the laws thanks.
Whatever your situation may be, in the first place the new law(s) was only published a few days ago - to expect those who volunteer their time to try to help others to publish word for word, blow by blow translations in a matter of moments is simply unfair, and to critisise those involved for not doing so is totally unfunded, especially before the legal wizzards have had a chance to seek clarifications where necessary
If you want blow by blow advice, go speak to a lawyer - I hear there is an experienced English chap available
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This, however, is SpainLegal Advice Muppet, you appear to have a very short memory, it is only earlier today that you stated that the 1995 law is obsolete, fortunately Loaded responded and put you right. I also was not critical of JA/ALOTCA I was only suggesting that they should already have a good understanding of the current situation as they have been studying it for many months and that the final details were not unexpected.
I've flicked through the law today and can't find anything of help to those in the "illegal Lettings" situation - apartments anyway that wasn't already available .
Altamira
04-06-2013, 19:31
Their position seems to be unchanged (sole agents) ... and soon to be joined by "Condominiums" who must hand over to one agency for 10 years or form their own company ...Condominiums Hello Doreen, this was part of what my earlier comments were based on. Do you think that Condominiums can be created from an already mixed touristic complex? where there are timeshare, legal rentals, illegal rentals, residential & holiday homes.
Condominiums Hello Doreen, this was part of what my earlier comments were based on. Do you think that Condominiums can be created from an already mixed touristic complex? where there are timeshare, legal rentals, illegal rentals, residential & holiday homes.
Surely that would conflict with the sole agent part of the law?
Condominiums Hello Doreen, this was part of what my earlier comments were based on. Do you think that Condominiums can be created from an already mixed touristic complex? where there are timeshare, legal rentals, illegal rentals, residential & holiday homes.
I just don't see how it can be introduced with such a mix ... they are saying complexes renovated under these new incentives may convert to this system but it would (surely) need someone to have bought up all the units and then sell them on to individuals under the new terms ???
The condominium part seems to be a way of stopping hotels being sold off to private owners..... Before this law, a hotel could be sold off and then the island would lose a hotel..... For example when the timeshare places got sold off they fragmented the tourist accommodation and these complexes (TRG - yucca park ) became a mish mash.... The condominium regime seems to allow the sale of individual units to private owners so long as they don't live in the units and continue to ten them touristically by an appointed agent.
Is that what you make of it Doreen?
The condominium part seems to be a way of stopping hotels being sold off to private owners..... Before this law, a hotel could be sold off and then the island would lose a hotel..... For example when the timeshare places got sold off they fragmented the tourist accommodation and these complexes (TRG - yucca park ) became a mish mash.... The condominium regime seems to allow the sale of individual units to private owners so long as they don't live in the units and continue to ten them touristically by an appointed agent.
Is that what you make of it Doreen?
Just like Baobob suits
The condominium part seems to be a way of stopping hotels being sold off to private owners..... Before this law, a hotel could be sold off and then the island would lose a hotel..... For example when the timeshare places got sold off they fragmented the tourist accommodation and these complexes (TRG - yucca park ) became a mish mash.... The condominium regime seems to allow the sale of individual units to private owners so long as they don't live in the units and continue to ten them touristically by an appointed agent.
Is that what you make of it Doreen?
The condominium part seems to be a way of stopping hotels being sold off to private owners..... Before this law, a hotel could be sold off and then the island would lose a hotel..... For example when the timeshare places got sold off they fragmented the tourist accommodation and these complexes (TRG - yucca park ) became a mish mash.... The condominium regime seems to allow the sale of individual units to private owners so long as they don't live in the units and continue to ten them touristically by an appointed agent.
Is that what you make of it Doreen?
You know the Hotel/Aparthotel regulations much better than I do Loaded - I presumed if owners were to be allowed to live there for several months, there would have to be some form of kitchen involved in the unidad de alojamiento
EDIT - guess you are referring to what I call Aparthotels
Legal Advice Muppet, you appear to have a very short memory, it is only earlier today that you stated that the 1995 law is obsolete, fortunately Loaded responded and put you right. I also was not critical of JA/ALOTCA I was only suggesting that they should already have a good understanding of the current situation as they have been studying it for many months and that the final details were not unexpected.
Really not sure what on earth you are referring to - feel free to remind me where it was that I said this. In any event there are perhaps more important topics under discussion right now, so probably off topic.
Legal Advice Muppet, you appear to have a very short memory, it is only earlier today that you stated that the 1995 law is obsolete, fortunately Loaded responded and put you right. I also was not critical of JA/ALOTCA I was only suggesting that they should already have a good understanding of the current situation as they have been studying it for many months and that the final details were not unexpected.
t'was BobMac
Altamira
04-06-2013, 20:28
t'was BobMacOops t'was BobMac, Muppet not guilty, sorry Muppet. We can all now focus on more important matters.
Oops t'was BobMac, Muppet not guilty, sorry Muppet. We can all now focus on more important matters.
you appear to have a very short memory
X
I'll read more in the next few days but the "hotel condominiums" seems - as 9plus says- to be the "baobab" model where a certain (restricted) amount of the "hotel" units are sold off privately as domains/condominiums (apartments?) but they must still allow the management to use them for tourism.
If you read the start of the new law it says that the aim is to avoid the resdientialisation of the tourist sector.
My friend works at boabab so I'll ask - I'm of for a nosey soon anyway
Altamira
04-06-2013, 21:16
you appear to have a very short memory
XMemory OK I appeared to be under attack from both BobMac & Muppet at around the same time, both were similar and they were both misquoting my comments, this added to the confusion, part of my response should have been separately addressed to BobMac.
Altamira
05-06-2013, 10:18
I'll read more in the next few days but the "hotel condominiums" seems - as 9plus says- to be the "baobab" model where a certain (restricted) amount of the "hotel" units are sold off privately as domains/condominiums (apartments?) but they must still allow the management to use them for tourism.
If you read the start of the new law it says that the aim is to avoid the resdientialisation of the tourist sector.
Condominiums I noted last year that Gran Hotel Bahia Del Duque and Baobob was marketing this idea, however according to one Baobob Estate Agent this rental agreement was optional.
The new laws on Condominiums appear to suggest that owners can form a corporation to hold the title and that the management of the Condo would be subject to a ten year contract.
The question is can an existing touristic apartment complex or part of it agree to become a Condo and thus the individual owners would get 6 months personal use plus 6 months rental. I think some may prefer this scenario, however it still appears to involve a management company and it appears to be tied into a ten year contract.
Perhaps Condo investors should be careful, what is to stop the Canary Government doing what they did to the apartment owners who invested prior to 1995 and making their private rentals illegal. Can the Government remove and make it illegal for a Condo owner to use their apartment for 6 months personal use.
I'll read more in the next few days but the "hotel condominiums" seems - as 9plus says- to be the "baobab" model where a certain (restricted) amount of the "hotel" units are sold off privately as domains/condominiums (apartments?) but they must still allow the management to use them for tourism.
If you read the start of the new law it says that the aim is to avoid the resdientialisation of the tourist sector.
My understanding was that ALL of the Baobab units were for sale - they certainly were a couple of years ago and it is one of the few developments where prices have not dropped.
seanocelt
05-06-2013, 12:00
On the usual update site (J.A.) , and her facebook page....................................
Ahem; quite important update.
Thanks Sean :) ... and huge thanks to Janet for all her work over the last two years or so on this subject :bowdown:
Communication to readers from José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz, Tenerife Litigation.
5 June 2013
I have been asked to publish the following on behalf of its authors and my fellow founding Alotca members, José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz, of Tenerife Litigation.
Further to your recent posts with regard to the latest developments in our class action against these fines for illegal holiday letting, we realize that this information, although it was clearly explained in your blog, might have caused some confusion for your readers. This is mainly due to the complexity of the Spanish and Canarian administrative laws which sometimes are difficult to understand even for experienced lawyers.
We also notice that recently an article has been published in a local newspaper by a British solicitor in which he comments and gives his legal opinion about how our law firm should conduct Court proceedings and litigation strategy in the Courts of Law in Santa Cruz de Tenerife.
This behavior might be appropriate if the said solicitor had the same qualification, professional experience and knowledge of the Spanish language as any registered Spanish lawyer, but we understand that the said solicitor is only registered in the Colegio de Abogados as a foreign lawyer as stated in his own web page.
Furthermore this British solicitor, despite not being part of these Court proceedings nor representing any of our clients, is advising our clients not to finalize the dispute with the Government with an agreement and is encouraging our clients to take this matter to the European Court.
It might be normal practice in the UK that Spanish lawyers, without being asked, advise British lawyers or their clients about the way they should conduct their practice in British Courts, but this is not ethical behavior in Spain and is clearly not accepted as ethical professional behavior in our Canarian Law Society (Colegio de Abogados).
Having said that, we want to make very clear that we have no wish to start a debate with this foreign solicitor nor with any other lawyer about the Court cases we are dealing with at present.
Although we have been asked, we have no wish nor intention whatsoever to publish, nor to disclose, any information about our litigation strategy in a local paper as we do not think this is a professional way to defend our clients’ interests. Anything we have to say about Canarian and Spanish law we will state in the Courts of law.
Having said that, we would like to make very clear some points which we think your readers who might be affected by these fines should keep in mind:
1. Although the fines in the majority of the cases are the same, i.e. 13.800€, clients’ circumstances could be different and defence arguments may also be different depending on the defence the clients have submitted (if any) when they received the first letters from the Tourist board. Litigation strategy must therefore be adapted to each client’s individual circumstances.
2.- Clients have been fined for advertising apartments on the internet without an inspection book (9.000€ initial fine) and for not having a customer complaint book (9.000€ initial fine): now these fines have been reduced to 6.900€ each.
3.- There are other clients who have been fined for renting properties in a touristic complex where there is already a licensed management company in place (fines could be in the region of 25.000€).
4.- Management companies, estate agents and cleaning companies have been fined for advertising or renting properties without a licence (fines could be in the region of 66.000€).
5. Spanish administrative law states very clearly that the fines must be paid and subsequently these fines can be disputed in Court.
6. To be able to challenge these fines in Court the client must present all possible appeals against the letters received from the Government and reach the last appeal to the President of the Canary Islands Government (RECURSO DE ALZADA): if this last appeal is rejected, then the client can present a claim in Court.
7. When a client submits the claim to the Court, it is possible to request from the Court an order to suspend the execution of the fine to avoid damages (embargo on property, accounts etc.).
8. After hearing the petitioner’s arguments, it is possible that the judge will authorize the petitioner to deposit the amount of the fine in the Court subject to the outcome of the Court case and the final verdict .
9. Prior to the trial, the Judge may invite the parties in a dispute to reach an agreement to put an end to a dispute, the judge can even give some guidelines and advice for negotiation, but this is only with the aim of reaching a solution to the problem. The final Court decision is not determined by this request or invitation from the judge.
Please find below the wording of article 77 of Spanish litigation legislation in administrative contentious matters (Ley 29/1998 dated 13th July) de Jurisdicción Contencioso Administrativa) :
ARTÍCULO 77
1. En los procedimientos en primera o única instancia, el Juez o Tribunal, de oficio o a solicitud de parte, una vez formuladas la demanda y la contestación, podrá someter a la consideración de las partes el reconocimiento de hechos o documentos, así como la
posibilidad de alcanzar un acuerdo que ponga fin a la controversia, cuando el juicio se promueva sobre materias susceptibles de transacción y, en particular, cuando verse sobre estimación de cantidad.
Los representantes de las Administraciones públicas demandadas necesitarán la autorización oportuna para llevar a efecto la transacción, con arreglo a las normas que regulan la disposición de la acción por parte de los mismos.
2. El intento de conciliación nosuspenderá el curso de las actuaciones salvo que todas las partes personadas lo solicitasen y podrá producirse en cualquier momento anterior al día en que el pleito haya sido declarado concluso para sentencia.
3. Si las partes llegaran a un acuerdo que implique la desaparición de la controversia, el Juez o Tribunal dictará auto declarando terminado el procedimiento, siempre que lo acordado no fuera manifiestamente contrario al ordenamiento jurídico ni lesivo del
interés público o de terceros.
10. Considering the above, we strongly advise anyone affected by this problem to seek professional advice from Spanish registered lawyers who have experience in “Derecho administrativo contencioso” as, sooner or later, if they submit a claim, they will be facing in Court well trained and experienced Canarian Government lawyers who will no doubt do their utmost to defend Canarian laws whether they are good or bad in the eyes of European Law.
EDIT - please note any bolding or highlighting was by me, not by the orignial author or blog owner
junglejim
05-06-2013, 12:14
On the usual update site (J.A.) , and her facebook page....................................
Ahem; quite important update.
Ouch! Sword through the shoulderblades ! La Estocada perhaps?
I sincerely hope the Collegio rap a particular foreign lawyer's knuckles quite hard !
delderek
05-06-2013, 13:00
It should perhaps be pointed out, that any highlighting does not form part of the letter published by J A
seanocelt
05-06-2013, 13:01
Unethical? Here? In Tenerife???????? Chris Eubanks always lisped on about "ethics". Think it was where he built his house. He knew as much about the lettings laws too.
I've just pee'd myself
You can get specialist treatment for that kind of thing ....
just sayin' ........
Angusjim
05-06-2013, 13:12
I sincerely hope the Collegio rap a particular foreign lawyer's knuckles quite hard !
And at the same time rap knuckles of some of the Canarian legal profession for not giving some client's the correct advice since 1995 ;)
And at the same time rap knuckles of some of the Canarian legal profession for not giving some client's the correct advice since 1995 ;)
but John the solicitor made it public by printing it in the local media
It should perhaps be pointed out, that any highlighting does not form part of the letter published by J A
Sorry, you are right Del, I should have made it clear it was my highlighting :)
Altamira
05-06-2013, 13:34
And at the same time rap knuckles of some of the Canarian legal profession for not giving some client's the correct advice since 1995 ;)
Innocent Victims I think it would be fair to say that many apartment owners are the innocent victims of the 1995 tourist laws, dodgy sales practice and inadequate purchasing advice from a variety of sources. Hopefully because of sites like JA & Tenerife Forum we will all now be better informed, however it appears that this can only be achieved by asking probing & searching questions.
junglejim
05-06-2013, 13:46
I've just pee'd myself
I think Nelson may just have done a number 2 !
Angusjim
05-06-2013, 13:49
but John the solicitor made it public by printing it in the local media
So its Ok to offer advice & charge for it as long as you don't print it in a paper sorry my mistake I just thought that bad advice was bad advice and possibly if all these very clever Canarian Lawyers had done their jobs properly maybe some people would not be where they are today. Now they are charging people to fix a problem that in some cases they helped create
so its ok to offer advice & charge for it as long as you don't print it in a paper sorry my mistake i just thought that bad advice was bad advice and possibly if all these very clever canarian lawyers had done their jobs properly maybe some people would not be where they are today. Now they are charging people to fix a problem that in some cases they helped create
such a sensationalist
Back to basics though. There is no doubt at all that many buyers here have fallen foul of the advice they have been given by so called professionals over the years, the most recent being the recent articles published by the "foreign" lawyer being discussed at the moment.
However, there are an awful lot of people who went ahead deliberately with the purchase of property in the knowledge of what they were doing was against the law of the land, and despite that law not being strictly enforced, were aware that one day it would come back and bite them on the bum - which it has.
All that said, buying property, whether here, the UK, or anywhere else in the world for that matter, remains the single most expensive transaction most "normal" people enter into, and it is beyond belief that many enter into doing so without proper guidance, checking the law(s) from end to end, and back again.
If there are any lessons to be learned here, they are the simple message of believe no one - least of all the geezer in the pub. Homework is essential. Never believe what you want to believe because it happens to suit you - go ahead only if you have satisfied yourself it is the right thing to do, and perhaps the real lesson is get those assurances you need in writing from those you have entrusted with your life savings - you at least stand some chance of fighting back later if it comes to it.
Hope you have dried your trousers 9+, and as we all do, we await Nellie to reappear (once he has had a clean up!) on the back of his sound legal advise that has driven him on thus far.
junglejim
05-06-2013, 15:20
Don´t "Pamper " to Nelson Muppet!
Am I understanding this correctly?
If, for instance, 2 owners on Parque 1 are caught by the authorities for letting illegally, at the same time, on the same website etc.
Is there a suggestion that if one signs up to the "class action" and the other doesn't, that they will receive different sized fines?
I'm not looking for a fight here, it's a genuine question. It seems wrong to me that's all. How can you have two different punishments for identical crimes?
Albatros
05-06-2013, 17:03
I'm not looking for a fight here, it's a genuine question. It seems wrong to me that's all. How can you have two different punishments for identical crimes?
I am sure you will get a better considered reply but as I see it, this happens in every country all of the time. Take for instance the difference between pleading guilty and pleading not guilty. There can be a huge gap.
I am sure you will get a better considered reply but as I see it, this happens in every country all of the time. Take for instance the difference between pleading guilty and pleading not guilty. There can be a huge gap.
Thank Albatross but not quite the answer I was looking for.
I'm assuming that both want to fight the case but one signs up with the gang and the other uses a stand alone solicitor.
Thank Albatross but not quite the answer I was looking for.
I'm assuming that both want to fight the case but one signs up with the gang and the other uses a stand alone solicitor.
But "the gang" are not fighting, just negotiating (and admitting guilt, so liable for a much higher fine later if they persist)
Altamira
05-06-2013, 17:55
Thank Albatross but not quite the answer I was looking for.
I'm assuming that both want to fight the case but one signs up with the gang and the other uses a stand alone solicitor.
Class Action My understanding is that some may have already pleaded guilty & paid the fine, (Criminal Record?) so in theory they are history. I think most will sign up to or ask their lawyer to sign up to the cost effective class action and will not need to plead guilty, but will instead admit to making an error. Others may wish to fight on and argue their case, they will if found guilty face the probability of a heavy fine and substantial legal costs.
Many thanks for your answers.
I'm still uncertain of the benefits of the "class action" route as far as the "criminal" is concerned.
Plead guilty. Throw yourself at the mercy of the court. Get fined.
If any other (proper) solicitor can do this then the outcome should be the same?
The info comes across as if Tenerife litigation can secure a better outcome than anyone else like some kind of bulk buying deal.
For all I know perhaps they can but if it's not guaranteed then I find it a little misleading.
Again, sorry, I'm not having a dig...:respect:
All seems a storm in a teacup to me.
As far as I can see the alotca class action is a deal offered by the judge to deal and be done. Many many of the alotca lawyer clients will be residential owners, so as John hatrick agrees , they have no protection from bolkestein. Only possible defence which may help them would be sole reliance on Internet ad as proof of renting. I think rulings have already said that alone , without other evidence, the ad is not enough.
So residential renters have to chose to pay the deal settlement or try to defend on the advert alone defence, if the ad is all that's against them. Given the legal fees needed to continue would it be worth them fighting on ?
Alotca lawyer s think bolkestein does not help, so if they are wrong any touristic clients they advise to settle may be let down.
They seem very touchy at the suggestion that they may be wrong , and a little aggressively anti meddling foreigner in their tone. Even if John hatrick is wrong , do they need to be quite so enraged?
nelson Did you read what Johnny solicitor wrote?
junglejim
05-06-2013, 19:30
Many thanks for your answers.
I'm still uncertain of the benefits of the "class action" route as far as the "criminal" is concerned.
Plead guilty. Throw yourself at the mercy of the court. Get fined.
If any other (proper) solicitor can do this then the outcome should be the same?
The info comes across as if Tenerife litigation can secure a better outcome than anyone else like some kind of bulk buying deal.
For all I know perhaps they can but if it's not guaranteed then I find it a little misleading.
Again, sorry, I'm not having a dig...:respect:
I´m not having a dig either but didn´t the Judge more or less say that all the class action should go through Tenerife Litigation to simplify the process ?
Nelson -you said " Many many of the Alotca lawyer clients will be residential owners" -have you a shred of evidence for this statement ?
I´m not having a dig either but didn´t the Judge more or less say that all the class action should go through Tenerife Litigation to simplify the process ?
Nelson -you said " Many many of the Alotca lawyer clients will be residential owners" -have you a shred of evidence for this statement ?
That's pretty much how I read it JJ.............anyway, I'm off for a game of Monopoly now....:lol:
junglejim
05-06-2013, 20:47
Nice to see Turismo´s VP De La Puente and others are including Turkey´s unrest in their hopes of filling tourist beds this summer - the Turismo must be like the CIA , fomenting uprisings in popular holiday destinations - Blackpool next ? Get your linen changes ready Nelson !
http://www.laopinion.es/canarias/2013/06/05/canarias-prepara-desvio-turistas-revueltas-turquia/479744.html
I read the link posted here, maybe John hatricks tone was forceful as well, but the alotca response seems a little bit aggressive anti foreigner to me. They don't come across as a very dignified and measured in their tone to me.
I have no actual evidence to say what percentage of alotca clients are residential or touristic. Maybe I am totally wrong? My gut feeling is that the vast majority of fined owners are residential. My thinking is that actual residential renters vastly outnumber the actual touristic fined renters .
The whole of Los gigantos is residential , we know of the LC residentials with loads of fines, dinasta, el mirador , most of the parque santiagos.
As I say, perhaps I am wrong but that's my inclination.
but the alotca response seems a little bit aggressive anti foreigner to me.
They are working with mainly foreigners as clients and Janet.
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maybe John hatricks tone was forceful as well.
Given the vitriol, bile and self-serving rubbish spouted by a regrettable minority of members on this forum, I do not propose to enter into ongoing correspondence or debate on this issue via the forum. However, if anyone wishes to discuss the following issues in a civilized manner, they are welcome to contact me via email or our website.
Janet ********'s website (plus a handful of 'bar room experts' on this forum) have boldly announced that the article I wrote in the local press was incorrect or an 'advertorial'. Please now allow me (a qualified lawyer regulated in both Spain and England with 3 million Euros professional indemnity insurance) to set the facts straight.
Written by Johnny solicitor
He is not as tolerant as me of your postings
Came on, did his one trick and buggered off.
Angusjim
06-06-2013, 06:58
such a sensationalist
In your humble opinion :hello:
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[QUOTE=9PLUS;292897]They are working with mainly foreigners as clients and Janet.
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Yea but them foreigners are paying them the other is trying to take work from them;)
In your humble opinion :hello:
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[QUOTE=9PLUS;292897]They are working with mainly foreigners as clients and Janet.
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Yea but them foreigners are paying them the other is trying to take work from them;)
It's just you're going down the wrong route again Jim, "the Canarian legal profession" you generalized blaming the bad advise from the legal profession when generally they do not have anything to do with house purchasing in the Canaries, due to it all being done via the estate agent, and I hope you're not implying that they are a legal profession.
Altamira
06-06-2013, 09:39
[QUOTE=Angusjim;292950]In your humble opinion :hello:
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It's just you're going down the wrong route again Jim, "the Canarian legal profession" you generalized blaming the bad advise from the legal profession when generally they do not have anything to do with house purchasing in the Canaries, due to it all being done via the estate agent, and I hope you're not implying that they are a legal profession.
Sale & Purchase Advice I don't rent out my tourist apartment, however I was seriously looking at buying other apartments to rent out, I did not appreciate the difference between residential or tourist.
Residential Apartments, it was not until I looked at the Oasis Complex in la Caleta where they had a community website, it clearly warned people off from illegally renting to tourists.
Tourist Apartments I was unaware of the concept of illegally renting a tourist apartment.
Advice - Collusion? No one advised me that it was illegal to privately rent to tourists, I sought advice from the seller, the estate agent, my bankers and my Canarian lawyer.
I suppose I was lucky to have avoided this sorry state of affairs, but I do feel sorry for those who are paying the price for what appears to have been a failing in the Canary System.
Trouble is though, if there is a failing in the system here it is the fact that anyone - literally anyone, could set themselves up as an Estate Agent and flog stuff to people without being obliged to inform them of the law.
The only way forward would be to force anyone wishing to operate as an Estate Agent to register with some form of authority and maybe even sit an exam - doing so would probably be against the Bolkestein Directive !!
Trouble is though, if there is a failing in the system here it is the fact that anyone - literally anyone, could set themselves up as an Estate Agent and flog stuff to people without being obliged to inform them of the law.
The only way forward would be to force anyone wishing to operate as an Estate Agent to register with some form of authority and maybe even sit an exam - doing so would probably be against the Bolkestein Directive !!
That's true of any agency, Estate Agent, Sole Agent, Secret Agent..lol...none of them need any government approved qualifications. The guys on here all seem to a good job though.
The problem is that even with the registered professionals there's no guarantees.
If you walk into Mr Hatricks office he will give you a completely different interpretation of the letting laws from Jose Escobedo. They can't both be right.
Altamira
06-06-2013, 11:39
That's true of any agency, Estate Agent, Sole Agent, Secret Agent..lol...none of them need any government approved qualifications. The guys on here all seem to a good job though.
The problem is that even with the registered professionals there's no guarantees.
If you walk into Mr Hatricks office he will give you a completely different interpretation of the letting laws from Jose Escobedo. They can't both be right.Legal v Legal Perhaps each may appear to have some reasonable argument, I have no axe to grind, but I believe Jose is more right than the other, I would therefore go Spanish.
Angusjim
06-06-2013, 12:47
[QUOTE=Angusjim;292950]In your humble opinion :hello:
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It's just you're going down the wrong route again Jim, "the Canarian legal profession" you generalized blaming the bad advise from the legal profession when generally they do not have anything to do with house purchasing in the Canaries, due to it all being done via the estate agent, and I hope you're not implying that they are a legal profession.
No I don't think of most estate agents as being a legal profession and I think you will see I did say some lawyers and I did say some of the buyers not all. So do you think that there were no lawyers in Tenerife that handed out bad or no advice at all about rental properties to clients, most people that were involved in property sales during the boom had their noses in the money trough during the feeding frenzy and without doubt there were also buyers who knew exactly what they were doing so really have no grounds to complain.
Legal v Legal Perhaps each may appear to have some reasonable argument, I have no axe to grind, but I believe Jose is more right than the other, I would therefore go Spanish.
On this, at least, we agree!
Trouble is though, if there is a failing in the system here it is the fact that anyone - literally anyone, could set themselves up as an Estate Agent and flog stuff to people without being obliged to inform them of the law.
The only way forward would be to force anyone wishing to operate as an Estate Agent to register with some form of authority and maybe even sit an exam - doing so would probably be against the Bolkestein Directive !!
to operate as an estate agent you do need to have a colegio number it is common here
for foreigners to pay a registered person a retainer so they can use their,s on saying that
I personally know one Brit and one Dutch person who sat the exam in Santa Cruz
and have their own colegio number.
junglejim
06-06-2013, 14:50
to operate as an estate agent you do need to have a colegio number it is common here
for foreigners to pay a registered person a retainer so they can use their,s on saying that
I personally know one Brit and one Dutch person who sat the exam in Santa Cruz
and have their own colegio number.
Did the Dutchman pay for his own ?
Did the Dutchman pay for his own ?
I think he and the British guy went ''dutch''
the disagreement between alotca and john hatrick over the law is very important. They are poles apart on the matter, so it is more than just a slight diference of opionion.
John hatrick in his latest article is saying that the alotca lawyers are not best serving their clients if they accept the deal and be done offer. John hatrick says that the letting laws are most certainley illegal under euro law , specifically bolkestein. My longstanding opinion is that the letting laws must be illegal according to euro law, I find them anti competitive, and anti freedom in the extreme. I find them completely at odds with modern western democratic principles as normally promoted by the eu. Indeed in my laymans opinion I would have thought that the canary letting laws must be in contravention of 999 eu laws protocols and regulations if anybody checks, let alone the bolkestein.
However a residential renter can not win with bolkestein so may be happier to deal and be done, carrying on with legal costs to fight on say the ad only evidence defence, well whats the point? A strong bolkestein defence might be appropriate for a touristic renter. John hatrick has said that the judge who has ruled the law valid and bolkestein not applicable has not explained exactly why he thinks that.
That is one element that alotca / the judge could put right. This is a public scabble, but we all would appriciate the matter to be out in the open and the arguments on bolkestein to be stated both ways.
Just like in uk law europe will decide in the end when appeals reach the euro court, nothing will be settled until that point. Just like the uk govt could not expel abu whatsis name to Jordon because they got the law wrong and europe told em so, well all this bolkestein will not be sorted until we get to that point.
Thats even if all the canary judges and courts rule against it.
Anyone know if John the solicitor speaks Spanish ?
Anyone know if John the solicitor speaks Spanish ?
I believe he is bi-lingual, he speaks English and Rubbish !!
boredinscotland
06-06-2013, 19:25
I believe he is bi-lingual, he speaks English and Rubbish !!
Yip, and he thinks a British Solicitor is going to beat Canarian Law in the Canaries,,,,what a guy, think he will buy apartments and rent them out putting his money where his mouth is? or just keep spouting crap?
Some of the discussion here seems to be about the rights/wrongs, legality/illegality of being forced to use an agent. I appreciate that's how the law stands at the moment. But if it were to change, (and I agree that doesn't seem too likely any time soon) then surely someone who was handling their own advertising and letting would be classed as self-employed which means they would have to pay social security, assuming they are not of a pensionable age. This would rule it out for a person who only owned one apartment as it just wouldn't be cost effective.
Same with villa owners - if you have one villa to rent out, it just can't be done if you advertise and handle the bookings yourself because the SS is almost one week of rent, unless, it's a luxury villa.
Good point Belinda, When the SS is proportionate like tax is, things generally would go a lot smoother.
the disagreement between alotca and john hatrick over the law is very important. They are poles apart on the matter, so it is more than just a slight diference of opionion.
John hatrick in his latest article is saying that the alotca lawyers are not best serving their clients if they accept the deal and be done offer. John hatrick says that the letting laws are most certainley illegal under euro law , specifically bolkestein. My longstanding opinion is that the letting laws must be illegal according to euro law, I find them anti competitive, and anti freedom in the extreme. I find them completely at odds with modern western democratic principles as normally promoted by the eu. Indeed in my laymans opinion I would have thought that the canary letting laws must be in contravention of 999 eu laws protocols and regulations if anybody checks, let alone the bolkestein.
However a residential renter can not win with bolkestein so may be happier to deal and be done, carrying on with legal costs to fight on say the ad only evidence defence, well whats the point? A strong bolkestein defence might be appropriate for a touristic renter. John hatrick has said that the judge who has ruled the law valid and bolkestein not applicable has not explained exactly why he thinks that.
That is one element that alotca / the judge could put right. This is a public scabble, but we all would appriciate the matter to be out in the open and the arguments on bolkestein to be stated both ways.
Just like in uk law europe will decide in the end when appeals reach the euro court, nothing will be settled until that point. Just like the uk govt could not expel abu whatsis name to Jordon because they got the law wrong and europe told em so, well all this bolkestein will not be sorted until we get to that point.
Thats even if all the canary judges and courts rule against it.
Just a question though, what was it then that European Judges in Europe ruled on a few years ago? The price of fish?
This whole question has been there (Europe) and wears the T-shirt, and to an extent because of the concessions Europe themselves afforded to these islands and a few other distant places, were happy, indeed encouraged the islands to run their tourism in their own way.
Perhaps, maybe, possibly it is time for Europe to look at it all again, but don't see that happening anytime soon.
Residential letters would, I suggest, be wise to look seriously at taking up on the class action settlement if they qualify to do so. Those fined for committing a far more serious offence - letting on a touristic complex without using the designated agent as required by law, face a very different set of circumstances.
Yes I agree the residentials might be better taking up the deal and be done offer.i don't follow how touristic renters are committing a far more serious offence. The residentials are not legally allowed to tourist rent at all, they don't have the correct zone in planning terms. A touristic complex is legal for tourists, so a renter not using the agent may be irregular legally , but the apartment being rented out is performing the job it is allowed to do tourist accommodation.
In my book the tourist renter is clearly not as far outside the law as the residential renter
Altamira
06-06-2013, 23:48
Yes I agree the residentials might be better taking up the deal and be done offer.i don't follow how touristic renters are committing a far more serious offence. The residentials are not legally allowed to tourist rent at all, they don't have the correct zone in planning terms. A touristic complex is legal for tourists, so a renter not using the agent may be irregular legally , but the apartment being rented out is performing the job it is allowed to do tourist accommodation.
In my book the tourist renter is clearly not as far outside the law as the residential renter
Equally Innocent or Equally Guilty This depends on which side of the fence you are on, in my opinion they are simply equal.
Yes I agree the residentials might be better taking up the deal and be done offer.i don't follow how touristic renters are committing a far more serious offence. The residentials are not legally allowed to tourist rent at all, they don't have the correct zone in planning terms. A touristic complex is legal for tourists, so a renter not using the agent may be irregular legally , but the apartment being rented out is performing the job it is allowed to do tourist accommodation.
In my book the tourist renter is clearly not as far outside the law as the residential renter
On the surface that's a fair argument, but how that argument would fare in the Canarian courts is an entirely different matter. In many ways, as above, there is also an argument to say that the "illegal letters" be they residential or touristic, are equally as guilty.
Clearly though a significant number of "Residentials" caught up in this were mis-sold or at worse mis-informed, something which the Judge appointed to hear the cases has recognised through the proposal he has put forward.
Whether the same Judge will view those who deliberately chose to set up a letting operation within a touristic complex where the correct procedures were fully in place, but nevertheless operate outside the procedures and law, and in some cases go on to break the law further by taking on another, or in some cases several, further apartments in the same manner, remains to be seen.
I would also consider it highly unlikely that the Judge appointed to hear all the cases that have been lining up in court to not have taken advice from his superiors, who in turn may well have sought clarification from Europe on the overall legal position of Canarian law in respect to that of European law and directives.
It may even be the result of having taken such guidance that the "deal and be done" as you call it offer has been proposed for those whom the courts might consider, on provision of evidence, to be less guilty than those who arguably deliberately set out to break Canarian law.
Personally, if this were me, I believe I would prefer Canarian lawyers on my side to fight the legal arguments with Canarian Government lawyers, and would hope their understanding of Canarian law within the context of Spanish law and European law, which both sides will have spent their entire careers working within, to offer me any chance of coming out the other end even partially successfully.
But Judge we were told its OK by our Lawyer in 2001 we've been paying our taxes etc
OK Chico everything muy bien next
Altamira
07-06-2013, 10:43
Tourist or Residential Apartments Equally mis-sold Hello Muppet, from discussions with many owners and estate agents, I am confident that tourist & residential apartments were equally mis-sold, the buyers were advised that it was ok to operate tourist rentals. Unfortunately mis-selling still appears to be happening and if you raise the issue of illegal rentals, some say no we have never heard of that, others say it is ok as per the article written by the English lawyer, or they say yes, you can rent it out and we can handle it for you as we have a license to operate rentals.
There is clearly a need for a well regulated system of house sales, therefore the estate agents should be tightly controlled. However this should have been done many years ago.
Peterrayner
16-06-2013, 18:36
interesting
Update 16 June: As I said in the last post on 2 June, the new law is under attack. And to give an idea of the type of attack it’s under, today the national government minister for Industry, Energy and Tourism, and president of the Canarian PP (conservative party), José Manuel Soria, himself a Canarian, has laid into it in the strongest terms. It’s a “fraud” for the tourism sector and the Canaries themselves, he said.
Referring to the eastern province’s claims that the Tenerife hotel sector was being favoured over that of Gran Canaria, Sr Soria said that the law wasn’t a fraud that shows preference to one part of the Canaries over another, but in a far wider sense it was a fraud in respect of the archipelago as a whole. In terms of the law’s very title, which includes the word modernization, he said that there is nothing more opposed to modernization than the establishment of obstacles and restrictions in the tourism sector.
He expressed the opinion, too, that each island, through its Cabildo, should be allowed to determine its own tourism priorities and promotions, “without the “guardianship” of any regional administration. Sr Soria reminded the conference of the regional PP that 2013 was the year in which the Cabildos, democratically elected, celebrated their centenary: what’s with the Canarian Government’s obsession and mistrust about the powers and jurisdiction of the Cabildos, he asked. Sr Soria closed by asking the Canarian Government to reflect on the enormous damage such anti-competitive laws can do, and insisted that what the islands needed was the best hotels for tourists themselves to decide where they want to stay.
I think many will agree with him, though it should be noted that he himself is still talking in terms of hotels. It should also be borne in mind that there is not the best of historical blood between him and Canarian President Paulino Rivero. None the less, it’s good to hear a voice, albeit a Canarian one, speaking from the national seat of power. This is Madrid calling …
The thing is its the new law that is under attack and its under attack from the point of view that it favors certain islands..... Nothing to do with owners of private accommodation - who seem to not even be thought of in this new law (or the 95 law).
It's a very sound and clear attack on the new law, in the sense of its protectionist anti free market and govt trying to manage the economy and plan it perspective . Agreed its only in respect of hotel controls and laws, the Madrid minister is speaking against the insanity and futility of the Canarian govt attempting to over control and plan for the hotel sector, individual apartment renting is not his stated concern. Having said that he is an important voice and what he has said about hotels applies equally to private holiday homes .
Having laws to determine private renting illegal and calling the law the future of tourism is clearly nonsense and a fraud.
He won't be the last important voice to start talking sense on this.
It's a very sound and clear attack on the new law, in the sense of its protectionist anti free market and govt trying to manage the economy and plan it perspective . Agreed its only in respect of hotel controls and laws, the Madrid minister is speaking against the insanity and futility of the Canarian govt attempting to over control and plan for the hotel sector, individual apartment renting is not his stated concern. Having said that he is an important voice and what he has said about hotels applies equally to private holiday homes .
Having laws to determine private renting illegal and calling the law the future of tourism is clearly nonsense and a fraud.
He won't be the last important voice to start talking sense on this.
Whatever view you hold on this subject, the chances of a positive outcome for those who have been letting illegally seems even further in the distance.
Despite claim after claim from you (collectively) about tourist numbers being about to fall off the edge of a cliff and when they do somebody somewhere will suddenly wake up at long last and take your argument seriously, it seems the opposite continues to be the case.
You will have read here and elsewhere about the fact that the islands have just recorded their best visitor numbers for ten years despite the clampdown and removal from the web of hundreds if not thousands of apartments like yours.
Just wondering then what your thoughts and explanation for this situation are?
Interesting that you have been quiet on this so far, not like you!
junglejim
23-06-2013, 10:07
Muppet,I've seen the comments on the increase in numbers fro Marichal (Ashotel) and others = they also note the descent of Peninsular and German tourists (mainly due to economy) - another article earlier in week noted the increase in "extrahotelero"( self catering) of around 16% whilst hotels fell slightly .
I think the issues in North Africa and Greece have helped keep Canaries numbers up and indeed Turkey's problems are expected to help the Canaries this year too .
The issue with the new law and lack of clarity isn't helping - the infighting between the Islands is mainly centred around hotels and 4/5 stars - as far as apartment letting legal or otherwise is still happening either under the radar or in some foolish cases still on the net .
The number of times I have been asked for phone numbers, introductions etc I could be a rich man on commission!
Muppet,I've seen the comments on the increase in numbers fro Marichal (Ashotel) and others = they also note the descent of Peninsular and German tourists (mainly due to economy) - another article earlier in week noted the increase in "extrahotelero"( self catering) of around 16% whilst hotels fell slightly .
I think the issues in North Africa and Greece have helped keep Canaries numbers up and indeed Turkey's problems are expected to help the Canaries this year too .
The issue with the new law and lack of clarity isn't helping - the infighting between the Islands is mainly centred around hotels and 4/5 stars - as far as apartment letting legal or otherwise is still happening either under the radar or in some foolish cases still on the net .
The number of times I have been asked for phone numbers, introductions etc I could be a rich man on commission!
... I bet !!
The country of origin will often fluctuate, primarily based around where the islands are promoted, which tour operators have secured the best deals and so on - this probably resulted in the decrease of Italian visitors, and certainly the weather in northern Europe played its part in the increase (again) of Brit and Dutch numbers, I would also imagine the Cyprus situation helped the Russian numbers and unrest in other possible destinations will play it's part too.
Bottom line though is that the Canaries continue to move forward despite the continuing economic situation generally, and specifically the doom and gloom forecast by Nellie previously. If there is a point here it is that the case for political change in respect to "private" letting has been dealt another blow with the continuing upturn and the forthcoming expansion of restrictions on the mainland.
Curious, therefore, of Nelson's take on all this (as if we cannot actually predict his response!)
Hi muppet , personally I am happy if tourist figures are up, that should clearly help some people , ordinary people in these difficult times. I certainly don't wish to hope for disaster for everyone just to help my personal circumstances.
Only thing is, do these increases in official visitor numbers actually demonstrate an actual improving situation in the resorts? Has this increase in official visitor numbers more than compensated for the loss of footfall, spending and economic activity generated by the loss of private let Internet customers? Are the southern resorts bustling with tourists?
If the official visitor numbers are up by many hundreds of thousands but the illegal visitor numbers are down by four times that amount , then we still have a disaster for the Canarian economy .
The numbers which provide us all with the truthful answer to all that mystery are the Canarian unemployment numbers. If they fall without illegal letting continuing, then you are right and I am wrong, the canary economy can manage and thrive with zero private letting industry.
A friend of mine has been looking to purchase a villa in Tenerife and has been told that they could let it out as they would be able to get a licence now the laws have been updated.
The only problem is that the villa is only about 150 metres from the sea..............is this going to be the start of the next load of baloney from the estate agents?
I am correct in thinking they must be at least 200 metres from the sea arent I?
No, the sea and pebble beach is at the bottom of the road.
Remember , all these restrictions might ultimately be illegal under eu law, bolkestein to name but one
Remember , all these restrictions might ultimately be illegal under eu law, bolkestein to name but one
If anything like that is to happen, it will be years away surely. If your friends need to rent out to finance the villa, Bo Peep, then they really must keep beyond the 200 m mark, and not rush into any purchase until more details are available - there are no doubt standards to be met and not all villas will qualify.
Hi muppet , personally I am happy if tourist figures are up, that should clearly help some people , ordinary people in these difficult times. I certainly don't wish to hope for disaster for everyone just to help my personal circumstances.
Only thing is, do these increases in official visitor numbers actually demonstrate an actual improving situation in the resorts? Has this increase in official visitor numbers more than compensated for the loss of footfall, spending and economic activity generated by the loss of private let Internet customers? Are the southern resorts bustling with tourists?
If the official visitor numbers are up by many hundreds of thousands but the illegal visitor numbers are down by four times that amount , then we still have a disaster for the Canarian economy .
The numbers which provide us all with the truthful answer to all that mystery are the Canarian unemployment numbers. If they fall without illegal letting continuing, then you are right and I am wrong, the canary economy can manage and thrive with zero private letting industry.
mmmm
Well, the numbers are the numbers - they are not produced directly by Tourismo, they come from footfall through the airports and ports which are the only way in and out of the islands - clearly splitting the numbers up into exactly where the individuals intend to stay during their visit has and will remain unknown.
So
Based on the comings and goings at the airports, May, it seems, has been the busiest May for 10 years and long may the improvements continue.
If however you are asking if the increase in visitors has helped the cheap English Breakfast bars, the 1euro pint traders or the illegal airport runners in general, the answer is probably not and it would be fair to say that there were, and still are far too many of them in the first place, and the old supply and demand rules have and will continue to apply.
If you are asking whether the increase in visitors has helped the local Canarian population, and in particular those who work in the hospitality industry generally, then the answer is probably yes. Yes insofar as providing continued employment for those working in the field.
In terms of creating further jobs in the sector, then probably not as yet - certainly not until the improvements appear to be here to stay for some time since both hiring and firing under Spanish employment law is expensive, complicated, and risky.
It is worthy of remembering that the Canarian Government have an agenda for the islands, one of moving away from Karaoke and cheap beer and breakfasts and toward a 4/5 star quality stay - rightly or wrongly it has been their wish for some years, and slowly but surely their wish is being executed.
One of the underlying reasons for the high and rising level of unemployment amongst the locals has been that Government and Councils have been forced to review staffing levels in the public sector due to necessary financial cut-backs, as has been the case across Europe for the past few years. Not disimilar I guess to the situation in the UK in the 70s early 80s where closed shop working practises virtually guaranteed a job for life provided you were related to somebody already working there.
Let's hope then that the improving trend continues for the sake of the Canarians
slodgedad
24-06-2013, 01:41
mmmm
Well, the numbers are the numbers - they are not produced directly by Tourismo, they come from footfall through the airports and ports which are the only way in and out of the islands - clearly splitting the numbers up into exactly where the individuals intend to stay during their visit has and will remain unknown.
So
Based on the comings and goings at the airports, May, it seems, has been the busiest May for 10 years and long may the improvements continue.
If however you are asking if the increase in visitors has helped the cheap English Breakfast bars, the 1euro pint traders or the illegal airport runners in general, the answer is probably not and it would be fair to say that there were, and still are far too many of them in the first place, and the old supply and demand rules have and will continue to apply.
If you are asking whether the increase in visitors has helped the local Canarian population, and in particular those who work in the hospitality industry generally, then the answer is probably yes. Yes insofar as providing continued employment for those working in the field.
In terms of creating further jobs in the sector, then probably not as yet - certainly not until the improvements appear to be here to stay for some time since both hiring and firing under Spanish employment law is expensive, complicated, and risky.
It is worthy of remembering that the Canarian Government have an agenda for the islands, one of moving away from Karaoke and cheap beer and breakfasts and toward a 4/5 star quality stay - rightly or wrongly it has been their wish for some years, and slowly but surely their wish is being executed.
One of the underlying reasons for the high and rising level of unemployment amongst the locals has been that Government and Councils have been forced to review staffing levels in the public sector due to necessary financial cut-backs, as has been the case across Europe for the past few years. Not disimilar I guess to the situation in the UK in the 70s early 80s where closed shop working practises virtually guaranteed a job for life provided you were related to somebody already working there.
Let's hope then that the improving trend continues for the sake of the Canarians
Although a lot of the usual posters on this thread will argue against a lot of your points, I think you have hit the nail on the head. (Even though it s slightly off topic)
(My personal opininion and does not reflect my status on the Forum)
Altamira
24-06-2013, 10:37
Visitor Statistics I was in Tenerife during May and it did appear to be buoyant, however the Altamira Apartments were not as busy and this appeared to be due to the drop in the illegal rentals.
Surely the question to be asked, is how much better would the visitor figures have been if the so called illegal lettings were to have continued as in past years?
It's not all about visitor numbers though, especially at the expense of the legal accommodation ....
Of course you can open it all up to all types of accommodation and there will be more "footfall" , but then then hotels and tourist apartments will suffer at the expense of the lower priced "private apartments" (because of less overheads / ability to dodge tax easier / not running it as a business ).....
Before long the tourist is used to paying peanuts for their holiday and the hotels / tourist apartments can't compete with the prices so staff are laid off and everyone is giving away the islands main product.
I don't think that's in the best interest of the island as a whole , long term.
Remember , all these restrictions might ultimately be illegal under eu law, bolkestein to name but one
Given yesterdays news that the EU are supportive of the Canarian Governments "restrictive" practices over employment priorities for their own people and possibly in the future, immigration controls of one form or another, there would seem to be absolutely no chance whatsoever that the EU would look to implement the Bolkestein Directive (or any other) in respect of property use.
I suggest that, if nothing else, what we are seeing is confirmation that the EU concept and Directives regarding Ultra Peripheral status for these islands (and the other outer European countries too), over-rule all else. This will be why the Judge involved in the lettings court cases has said what he has said and is doing what he is doing.
Given yesterdays news that the EU are supportive of the Canarian Governments "restrictive" practices over employment priorities for their own people and possibly in the future, immigration controls of one form or another, there would seem to be absolutely no chance whatsoever that the EU would look to implement the Bolkestein Directive (or any other) in respect of property use.
I suggest that, if nothing else, what we are seeing is confirmation that the EU concept and Directives regarding Ultra Peripheral status for these islands (and the other outer European countries too), over-rule all else. This will be why the Judge involved in the lettings court cases has said what he has said and is doing what he is doing.
Even if they do implement it, the directive clearly states that member states can invoke local legislation to protect what they see as being service areas which are vital to the local economy.
What will count more in the end is not if the eu is happy to let the canaries run a protectionist / restrictive economy, but rather if such a system actually benefits the canary economy and people.
The depression of the 30s was made worse by world govts following tit for tat protectionist policies. Many leaders today have cautioned against govts today making the same mistake.
Govts planning economies and controlling free markets is a formula for disaster .
That's what the Madrid minister was talking about when he called the new law a total fraud.
That's what the Madrid minister was talking about when he called the new law a total fraud.
Not so sure - I read his "rant" as being part of the age old grudge between Gran Canaria and Tenerife - GC wants to build 4 star not 5 star hotels. And as Janet pointed out, there is the enmity between Soria and Rivero .... Soria refusing to meet with Rivero not long ago in Madrid and Rivero calling Soria a "compulsive liar" eek2:
junglejim
27-06-2013, 11:05
I wonder what Turismo will make of this ?- hardly the 5 star image they are promoting !!
€15 per day including a Brekkie - Gym and Restaurante - you've got competition Loaded !:surfer::weights:
https://www.facebook.com/tenerife.surfhouse.3?fref=ts
I wonder what Turismo will make of this ?- hardly the 5 star image they are promoting !!
€15 per day including a Brekkie - Gym and Restaurante - you've got competition Loaded !:surfer::weights:
https://www.facebook.com/tenerife.surfhouse.3?fref=ts
I mentioned this on Facebook an they said they got around it by saying it was a cultural / sports thing with lodging available ...... Sounds ominous but hey if that's true fair play to them .
In any case I'm yet to have surfers booking in to stay with us, surfers would generally go for pensions or the cheapest accommodation they can find.
My friend is a surfer and he has made a bed in his van !
junglejim
30-06-2013, 07:47
Looks like certain Villas are going to be legalised for letting purposes ! Not pleasing Ashotel (no surprise there then !)
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/2013/06/nueva-ley-abre-mano-villas-turisticas-sin-limitar-su-cantidad/
Would make sense if they were. We'll see
Just bought an apartment in Cristianos. Going to spend 2 mth/year & rent when I'm not There...
If you are thinking of Holiday Letting, have you checked that your apartment is on a LEGAL Touristic Complex ??
If it isn't you can't holiday let, if it is you can only let it through the on-site agent.
There is a whole thread on the subject on the forum, just search for Illegal Letting.
Yes, it is. The only problem is I dont know if I *MUST* rent it trough the on site agent. In the property rule it is expressly said that you have the right to rent to anybody through any intermediary you want... If it's not the case, obviously the on site agent could ask you for any money he wants and you're forced to accept their conditions !
junglejim
02-07-2013, 11:34
Yes, it is. The only problem is I dont know if I *MUST* rent it trough the on site agent. In the property rule it is expressly said that you have the right to rent to anybody through any intermediary you want... If it's not the case, obviously the on site agent could ask you for any money he wants and you're forced to accept their conditions !
That is exactly what happens - otherwise you risk a hefty fine of €18,000!
Take a week off and read through the appropriate thread !
Especially the last 10 pages or so - get plenty of popcorn !
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23-The-Tenerife-illegal-lettings-thread
Yes, it is. The only problem is I dont know if I *MUST* rent it trough the on site agent. In the property rule it is expressly said that you have the right to rent to anybody through any intermediary you want... If it's not the case, obviously the on site agent could ask you for any money he wants and you're forced to accept their conditions !
As JJ says, renting through the on site agent isn't optional, it's mandatory.
You say it's a legal site.
Have you actually checked that ( and not with the estate agent ) and has it got a current licence for the on site agent ?? If it doesn't you can't holiday let the apartment at all.
A lot of people got fines because they were told by the agents that it was OK to let and didn't actually check, only to find out years later that they were actually breaking the law.
I have seen the site agent... He assured me he has a license. When I was on the notary, I have seen the community rules which were part of the sales contract. They expressly mentioned that I could rent through anybody. So theses rules seems to be against the law..
I have seen the site agent... He assured me he has a license. When I was on the notary, I have seen the community rules which were part of the sales contract. They expressly mentioned that I could rent through anybody. So theses rules seems to be against the law..
The community rules are definitely at odds with the law.
The site agent having a licence doesn't however guarantee that it is legal to holiday let. The law actually stipulates that the on site agent must have 50% +1 of the properties on the complex to operate legally - if there are 100 properties, he would need 51, for 200 properties, he would need 101. If he doesn't have that he is not actually complying with the law and it is actually still illegal to holiday let on the complex.
There are actually 3 categories of property - Touristic where the on site agent has the required percentage, Residential where it is illegal to holiday let and Lapsed Touristic where there might not be an on site agent and if there is, he no longer has the required percentage.
I would suggest that you check it independently through the Tourist Office - it's a very expensive mistake if he isn't operating legally and you get caught.
Might help if you name the complex, some of the members of the forum are operating legally in this sector and can probably tell you whether your complex is legal or not.
Angusjim
19-07-2013, 09:20
Well after spending a bit of time looking I have managed to "go legal" and have booked a completely legal apartment at Victoria Court which suits all our requirements, there are many very nice legal apartments out there but limited / available choice for what we wanted. So come on if I can do it you can do it don't book illegal apartments support legal complexes (you know who you are) ;):banana:
tenerifelegal
19-07-2013, 09:51
I believe Victoria Court work under the "umbrella " system where several agents & cleaning companies can registrar apartments under one name.This is a great idea and seems to have worked well there for many years.This means owners and clients have a choice. This is how they did work I am sure someone will correct me if it has changed!
VideoMem
19-07-2013, 10:04
is that at VC 1 or 2 or both?:bowdown::bowdown::flatcap::flatcap:with the references made to Victoria Services it must be only VC1:flatcap::flatcap::jumping:
Angusjim
19-07-2013, 10:10
I believe Victoria Court work under the "umbrella " system where several agents & cleaning companies can registrar apartments under one name.This is a great idea and seems to have worked well there for many years.This means owners and clients have a choice. This is how they did work I am sure someone will correct me if it has changed!
We saw apartment on Owners Direct and booked thru Victoria Services Jean & Pete and very efficient & helpful they have been:)
junglejim
19-07-2013, 10:19
Ha ha AJ 's a born-again legal renter ! Nearly as bad as somebody who quit smoking !
Have a great holiday AJ welcome back to the reef!
Angusjim
19-07-2013, 10:28
Ha ha AJ 's a born-again legal renter ! Nearly as bad as somebody who quit smoking !
Have a great holiday AJ welcome back to the reef!
Only issue about staying up in gods waiting room is getting back after our afternoon watching football at the Rover:tongue:
junglejim
19-07-2013, 10:31
Only issue about staying up in gods waiting room is getting back after our afternoon watching football at the Rover:tongue:
Yes watch out for those pesky Rumanians and Loaded !
Just wrap a couple of Arbroath Smokies round your neck - the smell should keep them away !
canary boy
21-07-2013, 18:18
Good luck to all in court tomorrow.I fear that t he outcome will not be good however at least those people involved can move on and the people that can afford it take this to the European court appeal etc.
canary boy
21-07-2013, 21:19
In count tomorrow ?
Like i say good luck to everyone in court tomorrow and your obviously not one of them but hopefully this thread will be a little less busy from this week
Do tell about the count cases tomorrow
what, when, where, how did you hear about them, where have they been published?
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