View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
I know this maybe a little off topic but can somebody tell me which complexes are legal for short holiday lets? My son wanting 8 days in October.
I know this maybe a little off topic but can somebody tell me which complexes are legal for short holiday lets? My son wanting 8 days in October.
For Arona Apartments look here - Arona Legal Apartments (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1105&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Arona Hotels look here - Arona Legal Hotels / Aparthotels (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1104&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Arona Rural accommodation look here - Arona Legal Rural Accommodation (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1106&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Adeje Hotels look here - Adeje Legal Hotels (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=27)
For Adeje Apartments look here - Adeje Legal Apartments (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=29)
For Adeje rural accommodation look here - Adeje Legal rural Accommodation (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=30)
For Arona Apartments look here - Arona Legal Apartments (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1105&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Arona Hotels look here - Arona Legal Hotels / Aparthotels (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1104&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Arona Rural accommodation look here - Arona Legal Rural Accommodation (http://www.arona.travel/portal/turismo/lloc_d10_v6.jsp?codMenu=1106&codMenuPN=1088&codMenuSN=1098)
For Adeje Hotels look here - Adeje Legal Hotels (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=27)
For Adeje Apartments look here - Adeje Legal Apartments (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=29)
For Adeje rural accommodation look here - Adeje Legal rural Accommodation (http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=30)
Thanks Mark, will check them out.
delderek
22-07-2013, 08:45
Doesn't seem 100 % complete. i.e. Royal Palm is Touristic but not listed on the Arona legal Apartments. I was told that the site in question lists only complexes that have paid to be included.
Also Victoria court is missing off that list of the legal to let touristic complexes!!!!!
There is a thread for LEGAL LETTINGS - it can be found HERE (http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?5769-The-Legal-Holiday-Lettings-in-Tenerife/page5&highlight=holiday+letting)
Doesn't seem 100 % complete. i.e. Royal Palm is Touristic but not listed on the Arona legal Apartments. I was told that the site in question lists only complexes that have paid to be included.
Also Victoria court is missing off that list of the legal to let touristic complexes!!!!!
Send them an email
x
Remember that the list will not be complete because you have to pay 450 euros a year to appear on webtenerifes website.
canary boy
22-07-2013, 13:55
You will know soon enough
Do tell about the count cases tomorrow
what, when, where, how did you hear about them, where have they been published?
Don't know where (or if) it was published but according to JA, it's in Court 4 and it's the start of the Class Action's. She will provide an update as soon as she knows more.
Don't know where (or if) it was published but according to JA, it's in Court 4 and it's the start of the Class Action's. She will provide an update as soon as she knows more.
Hello
Bob
Thanks
"Basically the Government overruled its own lawyers and refused the suggestion for negotiation so the class action cases have to be heard. Immediately after we knew that the Government intended to continue with the execution of the fine, an application was submitted to the court to hear all Alotca identical cases (same fine and same infractions) in one class action."
"I think there’s a level of realization and acceptance, yes … and also, I hope, a realization that antagonistic posts will not help any campaign …"
from janets comments
Looking like it's set to be the best winter even.
http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000043/0/40342/daily-news-article.html
And all without Nelson's help !!
And all without Nelson's help !!
Speaking of which, where is he ? He's been conspicuous by his absence since the court cases started.
Nothing from TonyM or John the solicitor
a natural boom in tourism as a result of political instability in Egypt shows clearly how insane and wrong the canary govt/turismo were to attack the private renting holiday sector.
They have caused untold damage to the canary economy and people with a crazy protectionist policy, only for a quite separate and unconnected real world event to come along and revitalise the tourist bookings in the canaries.
This sudden surge of hotel customers is very welcome news, but of course it will only last until the bullets stop being fired in Egypt and the customers are free to book the Egypt winter sun again. This increase in customers has nothing to do with the canary govts vision for tourism or any of their meddlings.
Indeed it shows how ineffective any of their measures actually are , and how unforseen external events beyond their protectionist interferences, make more of an impact.
That old story again...................dear
pfft
Court case going well then....
Nobody has time to write now 9+ they are to bussy letting ;) .
seanocelt
10-08-2013, 02:16
and letting they are , no doubt about it tis summer!! or....huge amounts of friends. And families.
Peterrayner
10-08-2013, 19:10
got both mine on long lets :) have booked my neighbours for the holiday :)
Altamira is dead as a dodo!!!!!! Masses of empty beds round the pool!
seanocelt
11-08-2013, 10:59
Tuppence worth from me; August so far, in my job, has been worse than the quietest weeks in June.
junglejim
11-08-2013, 11:07
I just got back on Thursday ,our complex is busy with lots of families - but a couple more sold up apartments and noticed bars were not as busy until late on -AI punters ?
golf birdie
11-08-2013, 11:08
Tuppence worth from me; August so far, in my job, has been worse than the quietest weeks in June.
I keep hearing the same from many who rely on tourists. One person told me they had the worst day ever 2 weeks back in over 10 years of trading here.
Tuppence worth from me; August so far, in my job, has been worse than the quietest weeks in June.
I think it will only get worse as this Sole Agents fiasco carries on!!! We as tourists want to be able to stay where we want!!! Most people are creatures of habit and through years of experience find the ideal Apartment/Complex etc
We now have far less choice with this silly unworkable law unfortunately, Everybody loses out in the end
I am convinced that if we could go back to the good old days it would be a far busier island week in week out
Why break something that didn't need fixing?
I think the Bars/Restaurantes/Supermarkets/Taxi Drivers/ and most business owners who are suffering would agree with me!
Albatros
11-08-2013, 18:09
I think it will only get worse as this Sole Agents fiasco carries on!!! We as tourists want to be able to stay where we want!!! Most people are creatures of habit and through years of experience find the ideal Apartment/Complex etc
Is it all down to the sole agent fiasco as you put it?
Reigning in the holiday lets on residential apartments must have made a fair sized impact.
I am afraid I am one the the folk who feel that residential should mean just that. I don't expect to pay good money buying an apartment on a residential complex only to find that it is being overrun by tourists.
Yes , I am a tourist too but have full respect for those folk who wish the relative tranquility that is to be found on a residential complex.
Much is made of the number of businesses that are closing and attributing them to the application of these laws. If I look at the high streets in the UK and in Portugal I see similar closures and quieter businesses. Surely the general economic climate is having an impact too. Folk are watching their pennies.
I am sure that things will pick up again, albeit with a different business environment. The big unknown everywhere is WHEN?
junglejim
11-08-2013, 18:45
I think All Inclusive has had a major effect on a lot of restaurant and bar businesses ,this is mainly controlled by the Ashotel Cartel and Turismo , who have shown little concern for anything that isnīt 5 star ,they donīt care about anyone else !
delderek
11-08-2013, 19:02
Trouble is. Most of the major holiday companies in the uk now have ai as the major offering. First choice have nothing else
Is it all down to the sole agent fiasco as you put it?
Reigning in the holiday lets on residential apartments must have made a fair sized impact.
I am afraid I am one the the folk who feel that residential should mean just that. I don't expect to pay good money buying an apartment on a residential complex only to find that it is being overrun by tourists.
Yes , I am a tourist too but have full respect for those folk who wish the relative tranquility that is to be found on a residential complex.
Much is made of the number of businesses that are closing and attributing them to the application of these laws. If I look at the high streets in the UK and in Portugal I see similar closures and quieter businesses. Surely the general economic climate is having an impact too. Folk are watching their pennies.
I am sure that things will pick up again, albeit with a different business environment. The big unknown everywhere is WHEN?
Fair point im sure the worldwide recession also has an impact! The awkward thing about classing an apartment is some were definately made with tourists in mind, take Parque Santiago 1 and 2 for instance with their well kept gardens and pool areas with pool bars and nightly security,we and thousands of others have stayed there since the late 80s they are front line next to the beach walkway and bars and restaurantes of the Patch, If you took ten couples who had never been to Tenerife before and asked them did they think they were for residents only they would think you were taking the Michael, What difference is there between the ones i have mentioned and say Cristian Sur/Tenerife Sur in Los Cris and many other legal ones? It just doesn't make sense! In fact its crazy!
I don't automatically link All inclusive with 5 star.
My perception of AI is your average working class Joe taking his family away knowing all the booze they can consume is paid for and the challenge is on to get as much as they can out of it.
5 star I equate with people who like luxury around them and plenty of money to spend on it. I can't imagine they'd want to stay within the same walls for a fortnight.
In the south, creating a 5 star resort isn't too much to ask for. But surely nobody is deluded enough to think the whole of it can become 5 star? Lets face it, they've only just started this campaign and we're already seeing bumped up numbers manipulated in varying forms in the local press as if to back up the plan. The truth is out there on the streets as per Sean's post.
I walk past the same holes in the ground I've been walking past for 20 years. Jobs started and not finished. I'd guess that not 10% of the present set up is 5 star. That just leaves the problem of the other 90% then. All when they can't even finish roads and hospitals! Who are they trying to kid?
The truth of the matter is that ai holidays and the letting crackdown are both contributing to a severe downturn in restaurant/ bar customers in the resorts, it's clearly a double whammy.
I think I can rely on seancelt to tell it the way it is, if he says August is quiter than June then it's a mess.
The hotels have been forced into ai, it's not a profitable choice for them , but the crackdown on apartment renting was a govt engineered act of suicidal insanity.
The Internet sites formerly taking bookings for canary apartments these past years will have been even more busy with customers searching and booking apartments this summer. Only thing is the customers will not have been able to book the canary apartments, these ads have reduced drastically .
For tourismo/ canary govt to seek to withdraw from this type of holiday offering en masse , and not accept and promote it is insane.
The result is a tradegy for the Canarian economy and people
The truth of the matter is that ai holidays and the letting crackdown are both contributing to a severe downturn in restaurant/ bar customers in the resorts, it's clearly a double whammy.
I think I can rely on seancelt to tell it the way it is, if he says August is quiter than June then it's a mess.
The hotels have been forced into ai, it's not a profitable choice for them , but the crackdown on apartment renting was a govt engineered act of suicidal insanity.
The Internet sites formerly taking bookings for canary apartments these past years will have been even more busy with customers searching and booking apartments this summer. Only thing is the customers will not have been able to book the canary apartments, these ads have reduced drastically .
For tourismo/ canary govt to seek to withdraw from this type of holiday offering en masse , and not accept and promote it is insane.
The result is a tradegy for the Canarian economy and people
I seriously doubt people who had found owners direct / holiday Lettings decided to swap destinations just because those sites had fewer results !
Plenty if other ways to holiday in tenerife that are far easier, quicker, more secure than owners direct.
Conversations regarding holidays are more like this:
Husband "Where shall we go on holiday? TEnerife, France, Italy .... Dominican Republic????? Marbella???"
Wife: " let's go to TENERIFE !"
Husband "ok let's have a look on the Internet and see what we can find".
As opposed to:
Husband : "who shall we book our holiday with?"
Wife "lets go on owners direct and see what country's and destinations are available and choose accordingly..."
Red Devil
11-08-2013, 23:35
The trouble is, you have a perception of a visitor to Tenerife as someone who stays 1-2 weeks in a hotel/ apartment and then goes home. Thats fine for you, you run your business accordingly.
What the Tenerife tourist board hasnt allowed for is anyone who wants to be different. How can anyone stay 3-4 weeks? What if they dont want to be classified and herded into the usual accommodation/length of stay?? The computer says no.
None of surely need to question the growth of Internet / e commerce business. In all aspects of advertising / retailing the Internet is taking a large slice of business, more and more people are using it to buy goods/ services every day.
As I say the big holiday home sites are still on the Internet and are booming with customers. The canary govt/ tourismo have acted to have hundreds of thousands of canary apartments removed from these sites.
Anyone who thinks that this crazy act will not result in a major loss of tourists to the canaries , both now and in the future is insane
I would never question the growth of the Internet - our business has been successful thanks largely to embracing the Internet and all of its progressions.
My point is that a tourist would not select a portal to book on and then go to a different destination if that portal yields no response.
EG: you decide to travel to TENERIFE and your preferred airline is monarch , if you can't get on monarch cos they're full, you'd use a different airline rather than check where else monarch are flying to.
Angusjim
12-08-2013, 11:04
Go legal you know it makes sense, I have now seen the light and am a better person for it:lol:
junglejim
12-08-2013, 11:26
Go legal you know it makes sense, I have now seen the light and am a better person for it:lol:
Have you been to Crete yet AJ ?
As an aside , I thought Doreen used the sole agent to rent her apartments ?
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?27402-Message-for-Doreen
Angusjim
12-08-2013, 11:57
Have you been to Crete yet AJ ?
As an aside , I thought Doreen used the sole agent to rent her apartments ?
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?27402-Message-for-Doreen
Not yet 27th August for 7 days:)
A great many holiday home Internet site customers just search the late deal bargains everywhere, they don't have a fixed destination in mind, remember the old teletext late deal getaway punters. Add to them Tenerife regulars who prefer apartments and don't want a hotel holiday , they now have limited choices, and you have a massive loss of tourists to the Canarian economy. The result massive unemployment and hardship for the Canarian people. A totally unnecessary act of economic insanity,
An act of criminal insanity on the part of the canary govt
jogger321
12-08-2013, 20:55
Lots of apartments in both Santiago 1 & 2 still being freely advertised on holiday lettings sites and on EBay..So if you want to stay there not a problem...Personally I think the owners doing the advertising even putting uk phone numbers must be extremely stupid or naive
Fair point im sure the worldwide recession also has an impact! The awkward thing about classing an apartment is some were definately made with tourists in mind, take Parque Santiago 1 and 2 for instance with their well kept gardens and pool areas with pool bars and nightly security,we and thousands of others have stayed there since the late 80s they are front line next to the beach walkway and bars and restaurantes of the Patch, If you took ten couples who had never been to Tenerife before and asked them did they think they were for residents only they would think you were taking the Michael, What difference is there between the ones i have mentioned and say Cristian Sur/Tenerife Sur in Los Cris and many other legal ones? It just doesn't make sense! In fact its crazy!
seanocelt
13-08-2013, 03:11
OK . Neck out= loads (no figures) of scared off alleged "illegal" lets are out there for the renting again, right here, right now! Loads.
Yes it's not a full stop , that be unimaginable for the economy in the canaries, but a huge chunk is not there this summer . This is the time of year when the canaries needs new tourists, it's not winter repeat days .
Without being part of holiday letting tourism the canaries are just missing a major part of the market.
Online is here to stay , the concept of holiday home rentals is here to stay, the canaries can't hope to survive without being a major part of that.
A great many holiday home Internet site customers just search the late deal bargains everywhere, they don't have a fixed destination in mind, remember the old teletext late deal getaway punters. Add to them Tenerife regulars who prefer apartments and don't want a hotel holiday , they now have limited choices, and you have a massive loss of tourists to the Canarian economy. The result massive unemployment and hardship for the Canarian people. A totally unnecessary act of economic insanity,
An act of criminal insanity on the part of the canary govt
There are many on here who agree to a point that the Canarian Government have got this situation wrong, but unfortunately, again, your predictions are not backed up with reality.
You say the results continue to be a "massive loss of tourists to the Canarian economy" but, taking the Tenerife South airport numbers this is simply not happening. The figures for passengers travelling through Tfs in May were up 7.8%, down by 0.7% in June and up by 3.4% in July.
Restaurants and traditional "Brit Style Bars" may well be suffering at the moment, but the truth is that there have always been too many and not enough of them have been of high enough standard to survive. Hardly a day passes without a post on this board by someone declaring they are coming over to start a bar and questioning how could they possibly fail!
It is, and has been for some time the Government's plans to push upmarket, they may be wrong, but it is their country, they were elected by their fellow country-men and, like it or not, they are determined to keep going. The passenger numbers would seem to suggest holiday makers are still coming and growing in numbers despite your better judgement.
It's been a while since I've heard anything regarding the inspectors. Are they still active?
junglejim
13-08-2013, 14:27
It's been a while since I've heard anything regarding the inspectors. Are they still active?
It's August , get a grip man! The world stops in Tenerife in August!
There are many on here who agree to a point that the Canarian Government have got this situation wrong, but unfortunately, again, your predictions are not backed up with reality.
You say the results continue to be a "massive loss of tourists to the Canarian economy" but, taking the Tenerife South airport numbers this is simply not happening. The figures for passengers travelling through Tfs in May were up 7.8%, down by 0.7% in June and up by 3.4% in July.
Restaurants and traditional "Brit Style Bars" may well be suffering at the moment, but the truth is that there have always been too many and not enough of them have been of high enough standard to survive. Hardly a day passes without a post on this board by someone declaring they are coming over to start a bar and questioning how could they possibly fail!
It is, and has been for some time the Government's plans to push upmarket, they may be wrong, but it is their country, they were elected by their fellow country-men and, like it or not, they are determined to keep going. The passenger numbers would seem to suggest holiday makers are still coming and growing in numbers despite your better judgement.
As I have said before , the number that matters most in this debate is the canary unemployment number. If tourism is holding up and booming , as you would have it, then all is well and there should be no unemployment issues in the canaries whatsoever . If unemployment in the canaries is high , then something must be very wrong with the canary economy, the empty restaurants, bars and none advertised holiday apartments must count for something.
If resorts are in August more quiet than the slowest weeks in June, I personally can't see that helping create employment in these islands
As I have said before , the number that matters most in this debate is the canary unemployment number. If tourism is holding up and booming , as you would have it, then all is well and there should be no unemployment issues in the canaries whatsoever . If unemployment in the canaries is high , then something must be very wrong with the canary economy, the empty restaurants, bars and none advertised holiday apartments must count for something.
If resorts are in August more quiet than the slowest weeks in June, I personally can't see that helping create employment in these islands
It's not "as I would have it", it is fact.
Unemployment down in July http://newsinthesun.com/page/2/
http://newsinthesun.com/tourist-spending-boost-for-spains-economy/
Anyway, feel free to argue, as I know you will. Ive got more important things to do, creosote the shed being one
golf birdie
13-08-2013, 20:08
It's not "as I would have it", it is fact.
Unemployment down in July http://newsinthesun.com/page/2/
http://newsinthesun.com/tourist-spending-boost-for-spains-economy/
Anyway, feel free to argue, as I know you will. Ive got more important things to do, creosote the shed being one
Unemployment in the Canary Islands dropped by 2,679 people in July, leaving the total number of unemployed at 290,375, according to data just released by the Ministry of Employment.
When compared overall since July 2012, unemployment has increased in the Archipelago by 520 people or 0.20 percent.
if this is the total drop in the unemployed in what should be peak season it really is a sign of how bad things are. Plus if you read further, over the year it is up so where is the boom?
Deserted bars and restaurants in the popular tourist zones in August does not help the Canarian unemployment figures. Removing 30 hotels worth of holiday apartments from the Internet market place en masse was a mad action on the part of tourismo/ canary govt.
Criminal insanity
Unemployment in the Canary Islands dropped by 2,679 people in July, leaving the total number of unemployed at 290,375, according to data just released by the Ministry of Employment.
When compared overall since July 2012, unemployment has increased in the Archipelago by 520 people or 0.20 percent.
if this is the total drop in the unemployed in what should be peak season it really is a sign of how bad things are. Plus if you read further, over the year it is up so where is the boom?
Maybe 2000 new peaple moved to here 1000 went back to their countries/peninsular so in total its 480 peaple who have more work not -520 .
Who really knows? Its more complicated than that . . . . . .
And probably even more negative than you think becouse as we all know lots more peaple have left the islands than new peaple have come to live here as residents.
Who knows the real numbers?
And do they really want the fackts known .
Same for the residencial/holiday complexes .
They made the law and they are going to use it . Ashotels wants more customers and less competition ( same like the bigg supermarkets vs. small stores . . . . . ) .
Local peaple want cheap housing (residencial) .
And the gouvernment needs money . . . . Gues who is going to pay the fines in the longrun . . . . . (The estrangero)
Courtcases or no courtcases . . . . . .
The polititians need their (local) votes to get more brown envelopes in future . . . . .
Canarian unemployment is a much more deep rooted problem and directly connected to the problems of the mainland, and in turn the problems in Europe generally. There used to be a thriving agricultural industry here which has been primarily destroyed by the EU and their regulations.
Now, over 90% of everything you buy in the shops is imported to the islands from the mainland or beyond.
The truth of course is that the illegal renters and those they slipped a few Euro to for dishing out the keys and doing illegal airport runs to collect guests also did nothing "official" for the local economy, indeed arguably they were/are no different to the many Canarian politicians who have had their fingers in the till. What astounds me is that this has been the way for many, many years, long, long before the rush to buy second homes using the equity accrued from the northern European housing markets. There are dozens, hundreds even examples of laws here which we, as northern Europeans find strange, even bizzare, all of which but we should have taken into account by those of us who took advantage.
We expect roads to be built, water to be supplied, sewage to be removed and lights to work when we throw the switch, but we complain bitterly if we get caught up in local laws and do not see why we should pay taxes or employ people legally.
Nellie - you are a hypocrite
Muppet, I don't think it's hypocrisy as such.
There are some taxes being paid but just not on the letting. That in itself is irrelevant seeing as the owners who don't let don't pay any either. That's just an extra if you like. All the others, rates etc can't be avoided. I'm not saying that's a good thing by the way, I'm just saying it's not as drastic as it's being painted.
The punters use the bars, restaurants etc which keeps things ticking over in the local economy. Ask any bar owner which he'd prefer.
I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion here. I think what Nelson is saying is that a hell of a lot of beds are going missing now because of it. Not because of tax, but because it's not possible for them to let (residential / dormant ).
You are correct in that the world economy is in a slump, not just the Canaries. It can't all be blamed on the letting laws but the point being stressed here is that it's certainly not helping and let's face it, they need to do something helpful rather than the opposite.
Two wrongs don't make a right. The deliberate insane tourismo policy to halt holiday home letting appears to be causing severe economic damage, as many of us knew it would. Taxing the renters properly makes sense.
What makes no sense is for the canaries to try to exist in today's Internet age without holiday home Internet advertised tourist s. we can all see the reality of that policy decision in the deserted canary resorts today, in August peak season.
Just without residential holiday lets pal
All the holiday home lets in Los gigantos are so called residential , there are no touristics. They used to power the towns economy. Holiday homes in tourist zones should be legal to let to tourists in the canaries. They have been doing this for decades, the canary economy needs them to be operating today.
It's what puts food on canarians tables,
Not strictly true Nelson. There are some touristics in Los Gigantes but even if every bed in them was filled it would barely fill one restaurant. They are also not the type of place the average renter in Los Gigantes wants - more like Butlins-on-sea type places. That's why I and another 90 odd people are still advertising our five star apartments on Holiday Rentals and attracting year round renters with high spending power - we keep the local economy going, which is more than can be said for the Government!
Two wrongs don't make a right. The deliberate insane tourismo policy to halt holiday home letting appears to be causing severe economic damage, as many of us knew it would. Taxing the renters properly makes sense.
What makes no sense is for the canaries to try to exist in today's Internet age without holiday home Internet advertised tourist s. we can all see the reality of that policy decision in the deserted canary resorts today, in August peak season.
It hasn't stopped any apartment lettings other than in residential complexes where there will never be legal letting to tourists, other than that the tourist complexes continue to flourish and soon the villas will have their chance to apply for tourist board approval and all will be well.So don't lose too much sleep over the people here Nelson,they will manage quite well without your lack of contribution to their economy.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
All the holiday home lets in Los gigantos are so called residential , there are no touristics. They used to power the towns economy. Holiday homes in tourist zones should be legal to let to tourists in the canaries. They have been doing this for decades, the canary economy needs them to be operating today.
It's what puts food on canarians tables,
No it isn't what puts food on Canarian tables.These apartments are residential and are in the main owned by Brits or other foreign nationals,most of these people don't contribute anything to the local economy,they don't pay tax here and they use illegal taxis,cleaners who don't have contracts or pay social security and they tend to eat at in their apartments or in British pubs.AT the end of the day it doesn't matter because they are residential and will stay that way.
Not strictly true Nelson. There are some touristics in Los Gigantes but even if every bed in them was filled it would barely fill one restaurant. They are also not the type of place the average renter in Los Gigantes wants - more like Butlins-on-sea type places. That's why I and another 90 odd people are still advertising our five star apartments on Holiday Rentals and attracting year round renters with high spending power - we keep the local economy going, which is more than can be said for the Government!
Hi Beanie, Do you use a Sole Agent for your property? Just curious!!!
Of course I don't use a Sole Agent Al Jay - there isn't one because as Nelson said, virtually all the complexes in Los Gigantes are so called 'residential'! And fonica - it's just not true that we don't add anything to the local economy - without us, it would collapse. We provide all the punters for the boat trips, restaurants, bars, car hire companies etc, etc, etc. My renters use taxis and I use a cleaner with her own registered company who pays all her taxes - can't speak for everyone else.
Of course I don't use a Sole Agent Al Jay - there isn't one because as Nelson said, virtually all the complexes in Los Gigantes are so called 'residential'! And fonica - it's just not true that we don't add anything to the local economy - without us, it would collapse. We provide all the punters for the boat trips, restaurants, bars, car hire companies etc, etc, etc. My renters use taxis and I use a cleaner with her own registered company who pays all her taxes - can't speak for everyone else.
90 odd people keep the whole town from collapsing ?
There are some taxes being paid but just not on the letting. That in itself is irrelevant seeing as the owners who don't let don't pay any either. That's just an extra if you like. All the others, rates etc can't be avoided. I'm not saying that's a good thing by the way, I'm just saying it's not as drastic as it's being painted.
I'm not trying to change anybody's opinion here. I think what Nelson is saying is that a hell of a lot of beds are going missing now because of it. Not because of tax, but because it's not possible for them to let (residential / dormant ).
That logic about the tax being irrelevant would be right if legal businesses weren't missing out on trade because of the illegal renters.
If someone stays in illegal non tax paying accommodation instead of legal tax paying accommodation then the government and economy has not benefitted from a chunk of tax.
That logic about the tax being irrelevant would be right if legal businesses weren't missing out on trade because of the illegal renters.
If someone stays in illegal non tax paying accommodation instead of legal tax paying accommodation then the government and economy has not benefitted from a chunk of tax.
By "businesses" I assume you mean businesses like yours and to hell with the bars & restaurants boarding up in the "illegal" areas. They are businesses too.
I understand the tax system and I wasn't defending non payment. I was pointing out that there's a balance between
option 1: Owner dodging it but brings people to the island. and
option 2: Owner can't let so still doesn't pay and nobody spends their holiday money locally.
I know that looks like blackmail but it's not meant to. It's meant to show that stopping people letting might not help the economy.
There's also the offset that the hotels may well be more corrupt than the average apartment owner. And all the way down their supply chain.It all adds up and most definitely doesn't help the economy. The amount that Nelson creams off pales into insignificance compared with the supplier of towels to the Ashotel group..lol.
Trust me, I'm in business and when I see an opportunity to doge tax I take it and so does everyone else.
Gotta go, there's a knock at the door....:laugh:
I agree with you that it makes no difference to bars , restaurants and shops as to where people stay (tax paying or non tax paying ).
I'm certainly not saying to hell with bars and restaurants - guests can stay in legal tax paying accommodation and use the bars and restaurants . This means all the businesses benefit from tourism and tax is paid on all fronts.
From my businesses point of view we give all customers a local overview of restaurants and bars in our area and further a field - we encourage guests to ask for personalized recommendations based on what they like . this is free promotion for those businesses and we know they'll have a good meal / night , be appreciative of the recommendations and hopefully return to tenerife and our place.
The way you'd put it was basically "so long as bars and restaurants are busy - to hell with legal accommodation".
Of course I don't use a Sole Agent Al Jay - there isn't one because as Nelson said, virtually all the complexes in Los Gigantes are so called 'residential'! And fonica - it's just not true that we don't add anything to the local economy - without us, it would collapse. We provide all the punters for the boat trips, restaurants, bars, car hire companies etc, etc, etc. My renters use taxis and I use a cleaner with her own registered company who pays all her taxes - can't speak for everyone else.
Not so called "residential", they are residential and as such will never change to touristic complexes.Los Gigantes was never meants to be a huge tourist resort because it just doesn't have the infrastructure hence the land designation was not touristic.I appreciate that many people didn't know this when they bought their apartments but that doesn't mean that it will change now.
Loaded
Absolutely not. In fact you all need each other in a way.
Again, the point in question was the reduction in accomodation brought about by the clampdown. If you take out all the ones that can't let ( residential / dormant / no agent ) that's quite a few. They're the ones I'm talking about. There aren't enough legal beds to replace them, unless of course you wish to stay in a hotel.
From memory, you don't act for all the apartments at PB? That will be the same on a lot of sites.
One of the reasons is that they need updating to meet your standards which is fair enough but if that person had a long list of happy punters without the spend, the punter loses out. I don't blame you by the way, you have standards to work to but if you won't take it on then it's the end of the road for that apartment. It's not available.
The availability of "legal" beds is drying up quickly and I'm sure you will have noticed that in your advanced bookings.
You have every right to be pleased with that. It's great and I'm pleased for you but it doesn't help me and the countless others who struggle to get in if we don't book a year in advance. :respect:
Obviously if all the legal places are full then bars and restaurants will not have the "overspill" they'd normally get from the illegal places because of the clampdown.
But take it to another level if a bar owner had to put up with me standing outside selling beers and drinks for 75cents on the basis that "at least the streets are busy" I think the bar would have something to say ....
Or: "at least the supermarkets sales are up because I'm buying cans off them ajd selling them to people on A bars frontage !"
I don't think the bar owners would care that the supermarkets takings are up.
Or: "at least the supermarkets sales are up because I'm buying cans off them ajd selling them to people on A bars frontage !"
I don't think the bar owners would care that the supermarkets takings are up.
I can see I've given you a business idea there matey...:laugh:
Of course I don't use a Sole Agent Al Jay - there isn't one because as Nelson said, virtually all the complexes in Los Gigantes are so called 'residential'! And fonica - it's just not true that we don't add anything to the local economy - without us, it would collapse. We provide all the punters for the boat trips, restaurants, bars, car hire companies etc, etc, etc. My renters use taxis and I use a cleaner with her own registered company who pays all her taxes - can't speak for everyone else.
The majority of boat trip tourists are bussed into Los Gigantes from far afield. If you believe for one moment that you are single-handedly keeping the Flipper afloat, then think on .......... By the same token, Submarine Safaris collect from Los Gigantes.
If you bought in Los Gigantes or environs on the back of being told you could cover your mortgage through letting, then you clearly didn't do your homework properly.
Fivepence
15-08-2013, 16:46
Not posted on this thread for a while but have been reading and keeping an interest in it fron an outsiders point of view.
Still two obvious camps discussing the pros and cons.
However my opinion has not been changed.
Government make laws, unfortunately these also fall into two categories...........good laws and bad laws.
On balance I still think this is a bad law and should be amended, there must be a way to regulate private short term letting other than by using a sole agent.
I know my opinion is worthless but nevertheless I am entitled to it. :goodluck: to all.
Back behind the barricade for me now before the gunfire starts. :wink:
I know my opinion is worthless
I Concur.......................dear
x
kiwiphil
15-08-2013, 17:11
Not trying to bring logic into this debate, as I know that is frowned on by many but ....
Passenger / visitor numbers are up
Less people are doing short term lets at the moment
1 + 1 = Short term lets account for a negligible percentage of the visitors
Therefore quiet bars / restaurants has more to do with other factors such as all inclusive packages / the general economy etc.
Apologies again for using logic. I really do understand that its frowned upon, particularly by the admiralty.
Move over 5pence, more gunfire incoming, I need to hide too :)
the focus you have to consider is the canarian unemployment figures. they are at massive high levels, its no good the anti letting camp pontificating about bars and restuarants or saying the los gigantos private renters are not needed.
if they were right then the canarians would have jobs and the canary economy would be growing in many sectors, building/construction being one.
remember the times before the crackdown. The islands desperatley need all the tourists they can get, a govt policy to remove apartments from the popular holiday letting internet sites was/ is insane and totally the wrong action to have taken.
Not so called "residential", they are residential and as such will never change to touristic complexes.Los Gigantes was never meants to be a huge tourist resort because it just doesn't have the infrastructure hence the land designation was not touristic.I appreciate that many people didn't know this when they bought their apartments but that doesn't mean that it will change now.
I'm sure when the developers built Los Gigantes, the last thing on their minds was whether they were building touristic or residential apartments - these are designations dreamt up only over the last few years. They were building holiday apartments, thousands of them, so how can you say it was never meant to be a huge tourist resort?! By my estimations the legal accommodations in Los Gigantes number around 200 only, mainly one and two bedroomed apartments, so capable of bringing in maybe 400 to 600 punters at a time (although very rarely, if ever, are they full). The other 2 to 3 thousand apartments or whatever the number is, the so called residential ones, are then meant to stand empty for the 40 or so weeks per year when their owners are not living in them - very sensible, I don't think! The real residents, ie the people who live there, are very few in number and most of them only live there because they work in the local businesses and are reliant on the tourists - legal or otherwise. Try telling them and everyone else involved in selling tourist activities in the area, whether it be the lidos, the boat trip people, rent a car places, restaurants, bars and supermarkets, that this was never meant to be a touristic resort, and I'm sure they would all agree that the legal trade would not keep the village going and without the 'illegals' they might as well all pack up and go home!
Nelson you've had your day, think of something else.
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I'm sure when the developers built Los Gigantes, the last thing on their minds was whether they were building touristic or residential apartments
Actually it's one of the very first decisions ever made when designing an urbanization and virtuly everywhere across the island was designated way before me and you ever set foot on these islands. So it would be firmly one of the very most important things on the developers mind.
Nothing new in it at all.
Actually it's one of the very first decisions ever made when designing an urbanization. So it would be firmly one of the very most important things on the developers mind.[/QUOTE]
Not 30 years ago it wasn't, when most of the village was built.
Fivepence
15-08-2013, 18:05
I Concur.......................dear
x
Thanks Mark. :crying2::laugh:
Not 30 years ago it wasn't, when most of the village was built.
Yes land designation has been around in the Canary for longer than 30 years.
cheers
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I have an Escritura here from a job we did 4 years ago, it was stamped in 1969 (so hasn't been amended) and it clearly mentions the type of land classification.
the focus you have to consider is the canarian unemployment figures. they are at massive high levels, its no good the anti letting camp pontificating about bars and restuarants or saying the los gigantos private renters are not needed.
if they were right then the canarians would have jobs and the canary economy would be growing in many sectors, building/construction being one.
remember the times before the crackdown. The islands desperatley need all the tourists they can get, a govt policy to remove apartments from the popular holiday letting internet sites was/ is insane and totally the wrong action to have taken.
But Nellie, please can we have your explanation on why unemplyment numbers are falling, which is what we all want to see), yet passenger numbers through Tfs are going up (which you consistantly preached would never happen)?
(Courtesy of JA's site - unemployment fell by 14,300 in the Canaries in the second quarter of 2013, a fall of 1.21%, and one of the largest drops in Spain)
Nobody could argue the Spanish, and particularly Canarian unempoyment numbers, are pretty. The reasons for this have already been explained, and are historical and many-fold.
Are you seriously arguing that, if an effective free for all in private letting were to have continued, as it was doing until a couple of years back, the Canarian unemployment numbers would not be 30 odd percent and more like the EU average of around 12 ish percent?
How would the peranial 30 hotels worth of privately owned beds generate so many jobs for Canarians? This considering upward of 25 percent of the unemployed at the moment have never even ever had work and are effectively unskilled, the banks are bankrupt and not in the mood for handing out loans, expecially for tourist accomodation, and the tourist industry itself is centred primarily on the narrow southern/western Coastal strip from Los Gigantes (not Gigantos) to El Medano, whilst some 75 to 80% of the population is centred in the central and Northern (particularly) parts of the islands?
Simply do not get your argument.
Miffed-owner
15-08-2013, 20:40
I have an Escritura here from a job we did 4 years ago, it was stamped in 1969 (so hasn't been amended) and it clearly mentions the type of land classification.
I believe at the time that meant residential as in "a place where you may live/sleep overnight(s)", as opposed to commercial property like a shop or factory or warehouse where you may not.
Clearly the Touristic versus Residential designation came in later. It should be respected but there should also be a possibility of reclassification if the nature of the area surrounding a complex has changed over time or from what was intended, so the area and complexes should be redesignated if functionally appropriate - how does it make sense to have shopping centres/hotels/nightclubs/theme parks next to residential complexes?
The core problems in the old laws are:
- complexes that were definitely built for touristic purposes and eg. rented out short-term prior to the inappropriately restrictive 1990's law but for whatever reasons did not opt to be classified as Touristic when the law was first introduced. The properties are still touristic (leaving aside that some owners have chosen to live there and not rent out), in touristic areas, there just isn't a sensible way for them to be registered and inspected. The owners who let should bear the costs of upgrading and safety/security features that are only required because of letting.
- the Sole Agent as currently defined has an in-built conflict of interest if they do not just operate the complex (could be as an umbrella organisation rather than monopoly) for letting on behalf of the owners but also have too much personal/business interest in the actual letting itself and the amount of associated profits. That is why some of the early developers were kicked out, they thought (and some seemingly still do) that they could sell the units at full price but still have complete control over the letting as well as the operational aspects and hold people to ransom over cleaning costs, telephone charges etc.
Looking forward to more detail of the actual implementation detail or the new laws (and any associated legal challenges!).
I believe at the time that meant residential as in "a place where you may live/sleep overnight(s)", as opposed to commercial property like a shop or factory or warehouse where you may not.
Clearly the Touristic versus Residential designation came in later. It should be respected but there should also be a possibility of reclassification if the nature of the area surrounding a complex has changed over time or from what was intended, so the area and complexes should be redesignated if functionally appropriate - how does it make sense to have shopping centres/hotels/nightclubs/theme parks next to residential complexes?
Looking forward to more detail of the actual implementation detail or the new laws (and any associated legal challenges!).
Well said Miffed-owner! I've just looked through my Escritura and there is absolutely no reference at all to the property being either residential or touristic. But there is an interesting clause:
'La Urbanizacion Acantilados de los Gigantes, fue declarada Centro de Interes Turistico Nacional por Decreto de 8 de Octubre de 1964'
Now try telling me it's not a touristic area.
Well said Miffed-owner! I've just looked through my Escritura and there is absolutely no reference at all to the property being either residential or touristic. But there is an interesting clause:
'La Urbanizacion Acantilados de los Gigantes, fue declarada Centro de Interes Turistico Nacional por Decreto de 8 de Octubre de 1964'
Now try telling me it's not a touristic area.
The area, the cliffs in particular, are an area of national importance as a touristic attraction perhaps, but where does it say your property or specifically the land it is built on is designated as a tourist attraction??
Clutching at straws me thinks
Los gigantos is a tourist village. The people who stay in and rent apartments do so to enjoy holidays there, hence they are tourists.
If canary law demands that this should stop and indeed that this reality is illegal , then clearly the law is out of step with reality .
And yes muppet , the crackdown on holiday home renting is seriously increasing canary unemployment , it's not the only. Cause but it is a very significant one.
Or are you convinced it has had no effect whatsoever on a decline in footfall in the resorts ? A totally unimportant and insignificant part of the Canarian unemployment numbers?
We will have to continue to disagree on that one
Well said Miffed-owner! I've just looked through my Escritura and there is absolutely no reference at all to the property being either residential or touristic. But there is an interesting clause:
'La Urbanizacion Acantilados de los Gigantes, fue declarada Centro de Interes Turistico Nacional por Decreto de 8 de Octubre de 1964'
Now try telling me it's not a touristic area.
You may need a better grasp of Spanish
Los gigantos is a tourist village. The people who stay in and rent apartments do so to enjoy holidays there, hence they are tourists.
If canary law demands that this should stop and indeed that this reality is illegal , then clearly the law is out of step with reality .
And yes muppet , the crackdown on holiday home renting is seriously increasing canary unemployment , it's not the only. Cause but it is a very significant one.
Or are you convinced it has had no effect whatsoever on a decline in footfall in the resorts ? A totally unimportant and insignificant part of the Canarian unemployment numbers?
We will have to continue to disagree on that one
PLEASE RE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS
1. It's Los GiganTES
2. Explain how Canarian unemployment numbers falling = "the crackdown on holiday home renting is seriously increasing canary unemployment" - watch my fingers please - It is F A L L I N G !!
I'm sure when the developers built Los Gigantes, the last thing on their minds was whether they were building touristic or residential apartments - these are designations dreamt up only over the last few years. They were building holiday apartments, thousands of them, so how can you say it was never meant to be a huge tourist resort?! By my estimations the legal accommodations in Los Gigantes number around 200 only, mainly one and two bedroomed apartments, so capable of bringing in maybe 400 to 600 punters at a time (although very rarely, if ever, are they full). The other 2 to 3 thousand apartments or whatever the number is, the so called residential ones, are then meant to stand empty for the 40 or so weeks per year when their owners are not living in them - very sensible, I don't think! The real residents, ie the people who live there, are very few in number and most of them only live there because they work in the local businesses and are reliant on the tourists - legal or otherwise. Try telling them and everyone else involved in selling tourist activities in the area, whether it be the lidos, the boat trip people, rent a car places, restaurants, bars and supermarkets, that this was never meant to be a touristic resort, and I'm sure they would all agree that the legal trade would not keep the village going and without the 'illegals' they might as well all pack up and go home!
I'm not arguing with your logic,just pointing out that once an edificio is designated residential it can't and will not change to "turistic".
golf birdie
16-08-2013, 10:47
a few years back a friend bought on a residential and when he had a sparky out to do some work he was told the electrics were never done with the view of people living in the apartment. It was a basic insulation done for short term lets, ie; minimum socketts and basic fuse box. Everyone knew what was going on but the lure of the brown made no one notice.
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PLEASE RE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS
1. It's Los GiganTES
2. Explain how Canarian unemployment numbers falling = "the crackdown on holiday home renting is seriously increasing canary unemployment" - watch my fingers please - It is F A L L I N G !!
Unemployment in the Canary Islands dropped by 2,679 people in July, leaving the total number of unemployed at 290,375, according to data just released by the Ministry of Employment.
When compared overall since July 2012, unemployment has increased in the Archipelago by 520 people or 0.20 percent.
My source ? The link you posted a few days back or do you now say this is wrong?
Muppet keeps being told that fact but he keeps saying unemployment is falling.
Clearly it's higher than last year so unemployment in the canaries has increased since last year.
That's a fact muppet
Angusjim
16-08-2013, 12:55
a few years back a friend bought on a residential and when he had a sparky out to do some work he was told the electrics were never done with the view of people living in the apartment. It was a basic insulation done for short term lets, ie; minimum socketts and basic fuse box. Everyone knew what was going on but the lure of the brown made no one notice.
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Unemployment in the Canary Islands dropped by 2,679 people in July, leaving the total number of unemployed at 290,375, according to data just released by the Ministry of Employment.
When compared overall since July 2012, unemployment has increased in the Archipelago by 520 people or 0.20 percent.
My source ? The link you posted a few days back or do you now say this is wrong?
I would not put too much faith in what sparkies in Tenerife say;)
What a silly reference by that sparky, apartments weren't designed to be lived in so that's why there's only a few sockets and a basic installation.
I mean what ********.
delderek
16-08-2013, 14:41
Nelson is gonna love this: 2800 Bars closed in the Canary Islands.
http://newsinthesun.com/
18,000 bars cor blimey that was never enough.
I quote
80% of businesses that have closed their bars are people who have gotten into the business without having a clue about the trade, just to create jobs for themselves. “
Not dissimilar to clandestine holiday rental bods
Nelson is gonna love this: 2800 Bars closed in the Canary Islands.
http://newsinthesun.com/
Its just what I would expect, you cant exclude tourist footfall from the islands in the huge numbers involved in the letting cracking, without the resulting massive loss of tourist spending in the resorts. Just consider the former turnovers of all those 2800 bars before the crackdown. Maybe 10,000 euro per week ? That equates to 28 million euros per week, in a year the figure is staggering.
Its exactly this kind of loss of business to the canary economy that is causing such suffering in terms of unemployment. This is why the private renters of los gigantes are so vitally important to the towns well being.
I dont take delight in reading these facts, we are only just at the start of this period, as predicted , where the internet ads pulled in autumn 2011 are now not sending guests to the canaries. last summer renters still had bookings in from before they pulled their ads, this summer the canaries are off limits to holiday home internet customers.
Yet this summer holiday home internet bookings will be at record levels, its such a terrible disaster for the canarian population that their govt took their islands off the internet and closed the market in the islands to these hundreds of thousands of potential customers.
An act of criminal insanity.
Most bars are doomed to fail anyway right from the start it's always been the same story here.
You only have to read More Ketchup than Salsa and johnnies thread from the boom years it paints exactly the same picture.
People come over with €60,000 from the sale of their home and think its a easy life running a bar.
it does not matter if the canary bar industry attracts a constant stream of hapless entrepeneurs who invest Ģ60,000 only to loose it and close down. Thats down to crazy competition and too many hopeful me too new start business people.
As ususal you miss the important point. what we are looking at here is 2800 boarded up closed down bars with no fresh takers to have another go. In todays canary bar world there are quite simply no customers at all, deserted bars and restuarants.
In the good old days , the boom years, yes many bar owners failed, but the massive turnover that they generated was still vital to the canary economy, their purchases went straight into their suppliers pockets. The wholesale canary supply chain benefited from the tourist spending, if the front line brit soon went bust in the bar it mattered not to the canary supply industry. The next brit in the bar would soon be ordering beer ,food etc, and the canary economy would thrive.
What we are looking at now is the boarded up ghost town scenario. No bars operating for the canary supply chain industry to service at all.
Albatros
16-08-2013, 16:05
I just love the way Nelson uses statistics and extrapolations. Politicians haven't a look in.
All those bars making 10k / week ... Aye right!! Assuming for an instant that this is a fact, surely much of the trade that went to a failing bar is taken up by another successful one. Survival of the fittest.
Most of those failing business were doomed to failure because they were payrolled by the owners savings until they dried up. I was advised at a very early age never to put my own money into a business project. If the business plan is sound then banks will lend. They need to make money too. (I know that the current situation is not so hot for bank lending but that will revert soon.)
I wonder how many of these failing businesses actually had a business plan that had been vetted by advisors.
If the Canaries figures for closures are higher than other similar tourist destinations then I would suggest that that is mostly attributable to an excess of bars operating on a cliff edge. The least little dip sent them over.
Of course tourist footfall and economic situation contributes to the closures but not all of them ... not by a mile. IMO.
I just love the way Nelson uses statistics and extrapolations. Politicians haven't a look in.
All those bars making 10k / week ... Aye right!! Assuming for an instant that this is a fact, surely much of the trade that went to a failing bar is taken up by another successful one. Survival of the fittest.
Most of those failing business were doomed to failure because they were payrolled by the owners savings until they dried up. I was advised at a very early age never to put my own money into a business project. If the business plan is sound then banks will lend. They need to make money too. (I know that the current situation is not so hot for bank lending but that will revert soon.)
I wonder how many of these failing businesses actually had a business plan that had been vetted by advisors.
If the Canaries figures for closures are higher than other similar tourist destinations then I would suggest that that is mostly attributable to an excess of bars operating on a cliff edge. The least little dip sent them over.
Of course tourist footfall and economic situation contributes to the closures but not all of them ... not by a mile. IMO.
read my post in reply to 9 plus, remember the failure of the brit bar owner is not the issue, they failed in the good years, it was down to a poor business plan, we can all see that was the case, but when the islands are denied tourist footfall the canarian economy colaspses , the canary supply chain industry has to contract, its very serious.
10,000 euro per week is my guestimate for a bars turnover/takings not profit, as we all acknowledge, probabley no profit and running until the owners funds run out.
But the 10k per week turnover would go to the canary supply chain, that would continue with the next brit bar owner in.
but not in the times we are moving to now, deserted resorts.
10k per week?? Lol!
Most of the bars that are hubby and wife combos struggle to make 1500 profit per month!
another one, o dear, forget what they make, what are the takings in the till per week. The gross takings, the turnover ?
another one, o dear, forget what they make, what are the takings in the till per week. The gross takings, the turnover ?
Not 10k for those bars
delderek
16-08-2013, 18:59
10k per week?? Lol!
Most of the bars that are hubby and wife combos struggle to make 1500 profit per month!
But also others that can make that per week or every few days.
Albatros
16-08-2013, 18:59
read my post in reply to 9 plus, remember the failure of the brit bar owner is not the issue, they failed in the good years, it was down to a poor business plan, we can all see that was the case, but when the islands are denied tourist footfall the canarian economy colaspses , the canary supply chain industry has to contract, its very serious.
10,000 euro per week is my guestimate for a bars turnover/takings not profit, as we all acknowledge, probabley no profit and running until the owners funds run out.
But the 10k per week turnover would go to the canary supply chain, that would continue with the next brit bar owner in.
but not in the times we are moving to now, deserted resorts.
As I understand your point here, you are saying that the economy needed a constant stream of folk injecting 50/60k into the economy by buying bars which subsequently failed.
Even the Japanese ran out of kamikaze pilots and aircraft. Maybe sense is prevailing.
It is hardly the sound basis for a thriving economy.
But also others that can make that per week or every few days.
And those ones aren't the ones which have closed...
junglejim
16-08-2013, 20:29
:....... :popcorn:
As I understand your point here, you are saying that the economy needed a constant stream of folk injecting €50/60k into the economy by buying bars which subsequently failed.
Even the Japanese ran out of kamikaze pilots and aircraft. Maybe sense is prevailing.
It is hardly the sound basis for a thriving economy.
All economies are driven by consumer spending. It's the customer who makes payday possible.
You are still focusing on the wrong end of the issue here. The canary economy does not depend on a constant flow of hapless Brits wasting Ģ60 k each trying to run bars. What the canary economy needs is tourists to spend money in bars in the islands. The bars then buy supplies, beer/ food/ utilities so the Canarian supply industries can function to capacity. This business/ commercial flow of money can happen if the bar owner turns a profit or if he makes a loss. If he makes a loss and sells the bar the flow of money will continue under the new owner and the Canarian supply industry will likewise continue.
What 2800 closed bars represents is a serious economic problem. The 2800 bars are closed due to lack of customers.in these circumstances there is no business anymore for the Canarian supply industries, hence more unemployment and terrible social problems.
Hard to believe the canary govt acted to bring the holiday home industry to a standstill, it was their reasoned policy.
Criminal insanity
Albatros
16-08-2013, 21:41
I do believe I now understand the principles of the economic cycle. I am surprised that I managed to go through my business career without those gems.
My point is that your statistics and assumptions do not hold water. You pick your own numbers and proceed to make your own extrapolations only to arrive at some conclusion that suits your argument.
Yes their has been an impact on holiday lets and consequently the local economy but there is absolutely no way that is the reason for 2,800 bars closing. Nor is it the major reason for Tenerife's economic slump.
Reduction in funding from mother Spain/Europe probably has had as much an impact on the locals as the illegal lettings fiasco.
Sorry to have to disagree with you, I have been in business all my life too, having said that I have never heard the word explotatipns before, so you have got me there.
I am just a humble Yorkshireman of very working class origins but I still think that the 2800 bars have closed due to lack of customers. Sorry if this is just a daft theory on my part but that's how I see it.
Bar full of customers equals bar open, deserted bar equals bar closed.
Albatros
16-08-2013, 22:10
I still think that the 2800 bars have closed due to lack of customers. Sorry if this is just a daft theory on my part but that's how I see it.
Bar full of customers equals bar open, deserted bar equals bar closed.
Trouble is that there have been too many bars for far too long. Supply and demand. Maybe now the future of the existing bars will be more secure with a possibility that they will even have some money to make investment in their fixtures and fittings and, dare I say, pay living wages. Increase the number of bars only when their is a business case for them.
PS . For extrapolation see here .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrapolation
Sorry for the deviation from the original post.
Trouble is that there have been too many bars for far too long. Supply and demand. Maybe now the future of the existing bars will be more secure with a possibility that they will even have some money to make investment in their fixtures and fittings and, dare I say, pay living wages. Increase the number of bars only when their is a business case for them.
PS . For extrapolation see here .... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrapolation
Sorry for the deviation from the original post.
That expo what's it word, what a complicated way to say jumping to the wrong conclusions .
Think you are right about the 2800 closed bars acting to balance demand and supply.
Thing is , it's the actual supply of customers being cut back that has then caused the bars to collapse to balance with the new lower supply of customers.
The 2800 bars have disappeared over the last few years. To start with they were viable, they did have the customers. Peolpe on this thread are saying that so far this August in Tenerife resorts is quiter than the slowest weeks in June.
None of this is acceptable or normal, but supply must balance demand. It is the canary govt that have reduced the supply of customers.
Criminal insanity
what we are looking at here is 2800 boarded up closed down bars
Boarding up establishments isn't the norm here, you're wrong again.
have you paid your fine yet?
Good restaurants and bars still packed out. August has been a bit quieter in general due to the excellent weather in the rest of Europe but watch this space for the winter ,the boom will be back. The dirty badly run businesses will still close and I’m delighted to have seen many of them close for ever. There are still a few to go. The good thing about a recession is the cleaning out process! Tenerife will survive and the tourists will keep coming back and maybe less of them will be British but other nationalities will compensate.Nelson talks about the island as if it is funded by British tourists,it isn't!!!
P.S. Can we change the name of this post to Criminal Insanity without referring to people who illegally let their properties without paying tax etc.etc.
golf birdie
17-08-2013, 11:48
Nelson is gonna love this: 2800 Bars closed in the Canary Islands.
http://newsinthesun.com/
the main cause of this is Loaded standing on the road side selling cheap booze. See what you've started:laugh:
the main cause of this is Loaded standing on the road side selling cheap booze. See what you've started:laugh:
But at least the supermarkets are doing well because of me!
Angusjim
17-08-2013, 12:05
But at least the supermarkets are doing well because of me!
At last you are seeing Nelsons side of argument:laugh:
Those greedy bar owners earning 1500 a month have had their day - the way forward is independent beer supply via private vendors in the street.
"2 Cans of LoaDoraded please"....:laugh:
Angusjim
17-08-2013, 12:52
"2 Cans of LoaDoraded please"....:laugh:
Do you do home deliveries ? I could place an order for December and miss out them " loaded" bar owners. I would feel better supporting something that is illegal:c2:
That expo what's it word, what a complicated way to say jumping to the wrong conclusions .
Think you are right about the 2800 closed bars acting to balance demand and supply.
Thing is , it's the actual supply of customers being cut back that has then caused the bars to collapse to balance with the new lower supply of customers.
The 2800 bars have disappeared over the last few years. To start with they were viable, they did have the customers. Peolpe on this thread are saying that so far this August in Tenerife resorts is quiter than the slowest weeks in June.
None of this is acceptable or normal, but supply must balance demand. It is the canary govt that have reduced the supply of customers.
Criminal insanity
But Nelson
Firstly, August is not yet finished, you are basing your comments on hearsay from one or two posters here who say they believe it to be quiet this year, whereas others say it is as busy as ever if not more so.
Therefore you cannot draw any conclusions on visitor numbers in August until August is completed.
Yet again though your logic collapses when you look at the passenger numbers in through Tfs for July - the last complete month for which data is available. Whether these passengers are staying in hotels, their own apartments or illegally rented apartments makes no difference - the "footfall" through the airport in July was up 3.2%.
Your argument that the island is suffering from a lack of tourists is total nonsense. True, some of the seediest bars and restaurants may have gone broke through lack of visitors, but that must be their fault for not keeping up with the times since, as before, there are more tourists here than last year, and more will continue to come, even if they have to sleep on a park bench because your apartments are no longer available.
Paid your fine yet??
Angusjim
17-08-2013, 13:28
But Nelson
Firstly, August is not yet finished, you are basing your comments on hearsay from one or two posters here who say they believe it to be quiet this year, whereas others say it is as busy as ever if not more so.
Therefore you cannot draw any conclusions on visitor numbers in August until August is completed.
Yet again though your logic collapses when you look at the passenger numbers in through Tfs for July - the last complete month for which data is available. Whether these passengers are staying in hotels, their own apartments or illegally rented apartments makes no difference - the "footfall" through the airport in July was up 3.2%.
Your argument that the island is suffering from a lack of tourists is total nonsense. True, some of the seediest bars and restaurants may have gone broke through lack of visitors, but that must be their fault for not keeping up with the times since, as before, there are more tourists here than last year, and more will continue to come, even if they have to sleep on a park bench because your apartments are no longer available.
Paid your fine yet??
last month. Up on
But I suppose there are unknown figures EG how many extra because of the Egypt situation and how many have not come because of the illegal letting:dontknow: then stand by for the Gibraltar
boycott kicking in when thousands do not come admittedly its only me, Marbro & TOTO at the moment so no major worries there meantime:c2:
golf birdie
17-08-2013, 13:41
But Nelson
Firstly, August is not yet finished, you are basing your comments on hearsay from one or two posters here who say they believe it to be quiet this year, whereas others say it is as busy as ever if not more so.
Therefore you cannot draw any conclusions on visitor numbers in August until August is completed.
Yet again though your logic collapses when you look at the passenger numbers in through Tfs for July - the last complete month for which data is available. Whether these passengers are staying in hotels, their own apartments or illegally rented apartments makes no difference - the "footfall" through the airport in July was up 3.2%.
Your argument that the island is suffering from a lack of tourists is total nonsense. True, some of the seediest bars and restaurants may have gone broke through lack of visitors, but that must be their fault for not keeping up with the times since, as before, there are more tourists here than last year, and more will continue to come, even if they have to sleep on a park bench because your apartments are no longer available.
Paid your fine yet??
last month. Up on
if I listen to you I would be confused. One day you post a link to show unemployment is up, the next day its a link showing its down. Which link do I believe?
if I listen to you I would be confused. One day you post a link to show unemployment is up, the next day its a link showing its down. Which link do I believe?
explain??????
golf birdie
17-08-2013, 18:38
explain??????
If you read any other posts apart from your continued vendetta against Nelson you would not need to ask.
If you read any other posts apart from your continued vendetta against Nelson you would not need to ask.
Zzzzzz just explain your point
If you read any other posts apart from your continued vendetta against Nelson you would not need to ask.
tīis cause the only 2 bits of information nelly gets right are her username and password.
x
Angusjim
18-08-2013, 08:22
tīis cause the only 2 bits of information nelly gets right are her username and password.
x
9 Plus Mr Perfect pffff
junglejim
18-08-2013, 10:01
Slow Sunday AJ, out fishing again ?
If you read any other posts apart from your continued vendetta against Nelson you would not need to ask.
OK, since it is you I'll spell a few things out.
Whether or not Nellie is right or wrong in his views, and after all, he is entitled to hold an opinion, the fundamental flaw in his argument are the claims he makes regarding his beloved "footfall" and the damage the clampdown is having on the local economy. Since the beginning of all this he has made two very specific points - the first being that the lack of private (illegal) apartments will see the number of tourists visiting the island(s) dropping dramatically.
Firstly he warned that last summer would be dire, and then when it wasn't, came up with his reasons why and claimed it would be this summer instead. This simply, so far, has not happened since the number of passengers passing through Tenerife South has increased, and has continued to do so.
2009 - TENERIFE SUR 7,108,055
2010 - TENERIFE SUR 7,358,986
2011 - TENERIFE SUR 8,656,487
2012 - TENERIFE SUR 8,530,729
2013
Jan - TENERIFE SUR 754,516
Feb - TENERIFE SUR 734,822
Mar - TENERIFE SUR 872,683
Apr - TENERIFE SUR 729,688
May - TENERIFE SUR 591,901
Jun - TENERIFE SUR 597,773
Jul - TENERIFE SUR 678,491
So, in the 7 months of 2013, 4,959,874 passengers have passed through Tfs and although I don't want to make Nelson style predictions, because they are so often wrong, it certainly looks like of visitor numbers are not falling through the floor as he predicted - so far certainly, it just isn't happening
If you you take 2009 as the pre-clampdown benchmark year, the monthly average visitor numbers across the year was 592,337 and at an average monthly figure of around 708,000 so far this year, the likelyhood is 2013 is on track to be a reasonably year for visitors.
Sources - AENA website and my calculator.
It doesn't matter where these visitors are staying, maybe hotels, maybe "illegal" apartments - what matters is that they are still coming, and in increasing numbers which given the world economic climate is good news. If as claimed certain areas of the island are quiet, certain bars are quiet, certain restaurants are quiet, the fact is that it has nothing to do with a lack of visitors and everything to do with the quality and diversity of what is on offer.
In terms of unemployment numbers and the economy in general, there are very deep seated problems in all southern European countries - corruption, employment law and the good old black economy and many other factors. What you cannot do though is claim that a downturn in tourist numbers, for whatever reason, is directly responsible for the present level of unemployment in the Canaries - there has not been one!
To argue that lifting restrictions on the tourism industry would solve the unemployment crisis alone is a total nonsense. There is not enough oil, planes, air-space or facilities on Tenerife for tourism to quadruple from the current circa 10 million visitors a year to circa 40 million which is probably what would be needed to bring unemployment numbers down from 30+ percent to the European average of around 10% or less. Don't forget also there are 6 other islands to consider here too!!
Some posts back I brought a report from the lady who cannot be mentioned to your attention. You can find it for yourself at her site, posted on July 25th.
It says - "Update 25 July: Unemployment fell by 14,300 in the Canaries in the second quarter of 2013, a fall of 1.21%, and one of the largest drops in Spain for the period. The number of unemployed is now 371,300, a dreadful rate of 33.69%, and 5% higher than the same period in 2012, but at least there’s a momentary breather with these latest figures. "
Nobody, nobody could jump for joy at the details above, but the point is that, for the first time for some time, there are signs that the corner is finally being turned and probably without Nelson's personal assistance too. Nobody would deny that the numbers are shocking, nobody would deny that a lot needs to be done, and there is a long way to go. But nobody, other than perhaps Nelson, and the others who are out of pocket, can suggest that private letting is the answer, or criminal insanity!
Sources - The Lady wot cannot be mentioned.
I hope this helps
9 Plus Mr Perfect pffff
Thank you for pointing that out.
The ja report was as misleading as your stats showing a boom. Basically she is highlighting a one month drop in unemployment that still leaves an increase in unemployment from the same month the year before. Lets all celebrate the boom. More worryingly she muses that these figures might show that the govt up market tourism strategy is the right way forward and could be already baring fruit.
What' many of us still see as the issue is that the canaries economy lives and dies by tourism. If the tourist numbers were holding up as you claim then unemoyment would not be so incredibly high in the islands.
So something does not add up in your argument somewhere?
Still managing to sign in
Reasons for that nelly, black local economy employing workers without contract and pushing for the better rendimiento from existing workers
Keep up the good work nelson,you obviously have the usual suspects rattled,they have even stooped to mild cyber bullying by calling you Nellie and further back in the thread some were confused as to whether you were male or female,If they had half a brain they only have to check your gender sign in your Avatar,A sure sign that they are quietly seething,they also keep asking if you have paid your fine,tell them to mind their own business!!! They obviously walk around blindfolded and can't see how quiet things are, Front line complexes that were thriving are now struggling as are the local businesses that were put in place to service them! They are all in denial *orders Tumbleweed* ;)
Keep up the good work nelson,you obviously have the usual suspects rattled,they have even stooped to mild cyber bullying by calling you Nellie and further back in the thread some were confused as to whether you were male or female,If they had half a brain they only have to check your gender sign in your Avatar,A sure sign that they are quietly seething,they also keep asking if you have paid your fine,tell them to mind their own business!!! They obviously walk around blindfolded and can't see how quiet things are, Front line complexes that were thriving are now struggling as are the local businesses that were put in place to service them! They are all in denial *orders Tumbleweed* ;)
Bloody do gooding pelotas.
The illegal holiday letting racket is almost over. That doesn't really bother me too much but it sure as hell ruffles the feathers of the people that fed it.
Bloody do gooding pelotas.
The illegal holiday letting racket is almost over. That doesn't really bother me too much but it sure as hell ruffles the feathers of the people that fed it.
*Waves* From Marbella :wave: :wink: :sunburn::sunbathe::cheers2::director: *pass the suncream dear!!! :whistle:
junglejim
18-08-2013, 13:04
Bloody do gooding pelotas.
The illegal holiday letting racket is almost over. That doesn't really bother me too much but it sure as hell ruffles the feathers of the people that fed it.
Iīll have to let this guy know heīs finished ,hes booked solid for a couple of years ! As are a few others !
http://www.alandowtenerife.co.uk/tenerife.htm
Iīll have to let this guy know heīs finished ,hes booked solid for a couple of years ! As are a few others !
http://www.alandowtenerife.co.uk/tenerife.htm
Lol...And they'd have to buldoze Parque Margarita.......Half of Warrington would commit suicide..
The ja report was as misleading as your stats showing a boom. Basically she is highlighting a one month drop in unemployment that still leaves an increase in unemployment from the same month the year before. Lets all celebrate the boom. More worryingly she muses that these figures might show that the govt up market tourism strategy is the right way forward and could be already baring fruit.
What' many of us still see as the issue is that the canaries economy lives and dies by tourism. If the tourist numbers were holding up as you claim then unemoyment would not be so incredibly high in the islands.
So something does not add up in your argument somewhere?
1. They are not my stats, they come from Tenerife South Airports passenger numbers - I presume you imply AENA is also criminally insane?
2. The JA report, is, as are most of hers are, a summary of news items from the press, with, in this case, her opinion which, since it is her own site she is well within her rights to make. If you read it properly however, it is a report on a summary of the unemployment position for the 2nd quarter of 2013 which shows the position improving by some 14,300 people back in work during the period, but as it points out, is still worse year on year.
But what doesn't add up?? The fact that passenger numbers seem to be holding up well, maybe even growing year on year, whilst at the same time unemployment is showing signs of decreasing, certainly quarter on quarter - surely the facts are suggesting - More tourists = less unemployment
Correct me if I am wrong but is this not your argument???????????
I am basing my position that there is a serious problem on the informants on here who report that so far August is quieter than the slowest months of June and others who are reporting deserted resorts in the south and dependant business's missing customers.
The link on here showing 2800 closed bars in the past few years also points to a decline overall in tourist footfall.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter, until either more news of improving unemployment comes along or more news of declining tourist business is announced.
I can not imagine that the canaries excluding itself from holiday home Internet advertised tourism would ever benefit their economy or indeed that choosing to do that could result in no negative economic impact for the islands and population .
Altamira
18-08-2013, 18:28
Iīll have to let this guy know heīs finished ,hes booked solid for a couple of years ! As are a few others !
http://www.alandowtenerife.co.uk/tenerife.htm
Foreign Travel Agent The agent appears to be getting away with these questionable rentals "Scot Free".
junglejim
18-08-2013, 18:32
Foreign Travel Agent The agent appears to be getting away with these questionable rentals "Scot Free".
Yes what i donīt understand is that I have it on good authority that the guy in Turismo has copies of his web adverts in his drawer !
Sounds like somethingīs not right!
I am basing my position that there is a serious problem on the informants on here who report that so far August is quieter than the slowest months of June and others who are reporting deserted resorts in the south and dependant business's missing customers.
The link on here showing 2800 closed bars in the past few years also points to a decline overall in tourist footfall.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter, until either more news of improving unemployment comes along or more news of declining tourist business is announced.
I can not imagine that the canaries excluding itself from holiday home Internet advertised tourism would ever benefit their economy or indeed that choosing to do that could result in no negative economic impact for the islands and population .
For the benefit of any misunderstanding, I do agree with you, as does everyone else I suspect, that More tourists = less unemployment
Where there would appear to be some misunderstanding at this point is that you predicted there would be less tourists last year then the one before, and when that didn't happen, predicted that it would happen this year, which, so far, would seem to not be the case.
Back then next month when the latest numbers are released.
xx
It is difficult to argue with the numbers Muppet I agree.
I don't for one minute think that they haven't been manipulated in some way to big up the island though but in fairness it's all we have to go on. That happens on both sides of the argument.
You have to admit though, it doesn't tally with what's happening on the streets does it. Nobody can manipulate that can they?
junglejim
18-08-2013, 19:36
I think the Tourist numbers from mainland Europe are being augmented by the issues along North African Coast, Greece and Turkey ,Peninsular Spain Tourist numbers to Canaries are definitely down .
Iīm not sure their is a proportional drop in unemployment in relation to Tourist numbers .
Illegal lettings donīt seem to be diminishing in our area,though quite a few units are being sold now .
I think the Tourist numbers from mainland Europe are being augmented by the issues along North African Coast, Greece and Turkey ,Peninsular Spain Tourist numbers to Canaries are definitely down .
Iīm not sure their is a proportional drop in unemployment in relation to Tourist numbers .
Illegal lettings donīt seem to be diminishing in our area,though quite a few units are being sold now .
Something very obviously doesn't seem to tally but would agree that the illegal lettings are certainly not diminishing, in fact if anything they are increasing. People are just being very careful about what they put on their adverts as regards contact details and photos which reveal the location. Nelson would have been right in his predictions had everyone been scared off from advertising, in fact I'm sure the tourist numbers would have been seriously affected. As it is I think a lot of us are just hanging in there and keeping a low profile, and waiting to see what the eventual outcome of the court cases will be and if there is a higher challenge at European level.
canary boy
18-08-2013, 21:50
Something very obviously doesn't seem to tally but would agree that the illegal lettings are certainly not diminishing, in fact if anything they are increasing. People are just being very careful about what they put on their adverts as regards contact details and photos which reveal the location. Nelson would have been right in his predictions had everyone been scared off from advertising, in fact I'm sure the tourist numbers would have been seriously affected. As it is I think a lot of us are just hanging in there and keeping a low profile, and waiting to see what the eventual outcome of the court cases will be and if there is a higher challenge at European level.
Roll on the 23rd September when the court reconvenes
Roll on the 23rd September when the court reconvenes
Too right - I don't hold out much hope though .....
For the ideal that the govt has in mind to work, all those previously illegally renting out their places for holiday lets, would turn their apartments over to the sole agents in place and tourism would flourish. I can only speak for Altamira, but nobody has signed up with Konrad this year! The vast majority have just stopped renting ... some obviously are continuing but without advertisements and completely illegally. The complex is extremely quiet compared to previous years. I don't see how this helps the economy to be honest.
delderek
19-08-2013, 20:01
JA has just put some info on her site about people that have not appealed their fines
From JA;
"Those who have been fined for illegal letting and who have neither appealed nor paid may already have had letters from Rita Hernández, the Turismo minister responsible for inspections and fines, setting out the fine recovery procedures. Some will not have received anything, however, and anyone in this group needs to check urgently if they have been ordered to Turismo for the procedures to be explained in person. The appearance must be made between 9am and 2pm, Monday to Friday, in Turismos offices in Santa Cruz on the 1st floor, number 35 Avenida de Anaga/Francisco La Roche. Sra Hernández says that failure to appear, or failure of those whove received letters to reply, will result in the Government proceeding unilaterally to full legal effect to recover the fines."
Who said nothing happens in TENERIFE in August???
This is worth a read Illegal letting in Tenerife (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvwBH5HCY44)
junglejim
19-08-2013, 22:12
This is worth a read Illegal letting in Tenerife (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvwBH5HCY44)
That's a bit Apocalyptic now 9+!
Here comes the Judge !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz3Cc7wlfkI
http://issuu.com/canarianweekly/docs/cw_816_issue
Interesting! So Spain's holiday-home market is blossoming ...........!
Fivepence
20-08-2013, 10:25
To work around bad laws, people take the risk and break the law.
It seems this is happening here.
Someone mentioned bullying Nelson in an earlier post, I wouldn't go that far but fair play to him for standing his corner.
If he was outside a nightclub, he would have been comatose long ago.:whistle:
To work around bad laws, people take the risk and break the law.
It seems this is happening here.
Someone mentioned bullying Nelson in an earlier post, I wouldn't go that far but fair play to him for standing his corner.
If he was outside a nightclub, he would have been comatose long ago.:whistle:
I have some experience of both inside pub and outside pub fights, never thrown the first punch , yes been put straight on me back before now, but I can assure all that I have always got up and hit back. I dont believe in violence but in my growing up years in my town there are many who like to be bullies especially when in drink.
I have some experience of both inside pub and outside pub fights, never thrown the first punch , yes been put straight on me back before now, but I can assure all that I have always got up and hit back. I dont believe in violence but in my growing up years in my town there are many who like to be bullies especially when in drink.
I knew it...troublmaker..:lol:
I have some experience of both inside pub and outside pub fights, never thrown the first punch , yes been put straight on me back before now, but I can assure all that I have always got up and hit back. I dont believe in violence but in my growing up years in my town there are many who like to be bullies especially when in drink.
I like your Polish accent......................Pal
Foreign tourist numbers highest since 2001
http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000043/0/40540/daily-news-article.html
Foreign tourist numbers highest since 2001
http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000043/0/40540/daily-news-article.html
More strange news of the recovery / boom. This report sort of contradicts the poster who said a week ago that so far August was quiter than the worst weeks in June .
I would genuinely welcome a boom, it is what so many jobless canarians need plus if it were true the hotel mafia would be counting their profits and leave everyone else alone.
Only thing is how do we square this talk of record numbers , 2001 numbers, with the canary unemployed totals?
Albatros
23-08-2013, 20:00
Only thing is how do we square this talk of record numbers , 2001 numbers, with the canary unemployed totals?
It would appear that the largest proportion of the Canarian unemployed are from sectors other than tourism. Agriculture and manufacturing etc.
More strange news of the recovery / boom. This report sort of contradicts the poster who said a week ago that so far August was quiter than the worst weeks in June .
I would genuinely welcome a boom, it is what so many jobless canarians need plus if it were true the hotel mafia would be counting their profits and leave everyone else alone.
Only thing is how do we square this talk of record numbers , 2001 numbers, with the canary unemployed totals?
I know you were wrong to assume Tenerife was sinking.
golf birdie
23-08-2013, 21:52
Foreign tourist numbers highest since 2001
http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000043/0/40540/daily-news-article.html
well a lot of them must of had their pockets picked at the airport as without fail everyone I know in business is saying its been a bad summer.
well a lot of them must of had their pockets picked at the airport as without fail everyone I know in business is saying its been a bad summer.
So, exactly what business are all these business people you know in?????
We're having a great summer, things have been on the up and up every year since 2010.... Owners are all happy and getting loads of bookings. Onsite bars and restaurants have more visitors to cater to than ever before.
Angusjim
24-08-2013, 08:03
well a lot of them must of had their pockets picked at the airport as without fail everyone I know in business is saying its been a bad summer.
God bless all inclusive the saviour of Tenerife tourisim
junglejim
24-08-2013, 12:55
We're having a great summer, things have been on the up and up every year since 2010.... Owners are all happy and getting loads of bookings. Onsite bars and restaurants have more visitors to cater to than ever before.
Of course youīre doing well Loaded .people are struggling to find SC accommodation with the 1995 law being enforced more rigorously -you can start putting your prices up now, the competition has been emasculated !
primrose
24-08-2013, 13:03
We're having a great summer, things have been on the up and up every year since 2010.... Owners are all happy and getting loads of bookings. Onsite bars and restaurants have more visitors to cater to than ever before.
Which Bars do you class as onsite.
Which Bars do you class as onsite.
Poolside bar, bar Olaf, Penny farthing , market tavern , diamonds, Surrey arms, Bahia verde, rumours, la crestella
primrose
24-08-2013, 13:54
Well that's very strange because the one's i have spoken to said it's the worse summer ever, won't name the bars but they all said it's so bad they will never make up what they have lost,you only have to drive along the road and see nearly every bar empty.To quote one of the owners of the bars you have named - It's Dire.
Herein lies the problem.
If one assumes there are more visitors here than ever, or at least for some time, and there is no reason to disbelieve the passenger numbers from Aena, there is little they can do to fiddle their figures as these are based on international agreements, then if it is seemingly quiet there must be something else wrong.
Nelson has always been the first to tell us that people's holiday plans have evolved.
If then there are more tourists visiting, assuming the passenger numbers are accurate, but the streets are quieter assuming the bar owners on here are to be believed, perhaps the natural evolution of how tourists want to holiday has evolved past self catering now as well, and moved onto to AI Hotels.
The attraction of AI is obvious and is it maybe that the bars that were busy 10 years ago have simply not evolved - or perhaps (as I tend to suspect), there are simply too many of them, and too few offering anything special.
Just askin'
delderek
24-08-2013, 18:19
The resorts have now expanded so much, that visitors are now spread more thinly. Not so long ago all urbanisation finished at Puerto Colon, now see how far it stretches. The walkway between Los Cris an LA, had lots of unbuilt areas, now it's mainly a mass of buildings. In LA itself, no Safari centre, no Americas Plaza, all were open expanses. So the people are still about, but no longer concentrated where they once were.
ai is not helping the bars/resturants, thats a fact. The bars restuarants were struggling with the ai menance just as the letting crackdown began. However the crackdown has removed hundred of thousands of tourists from the canaries because it has taken the apartment ads off the internet hoilday home sites. These sites are part of the evolution of the market, they are growing in popularity, they are well used, and hundreds of thousand of tourists are using them this summer to book apartments and take holidays.
They are much restricted in their choice on these sites in respect of the canaries, the govt has in effect taken the canaries out of this marketplace/shop window.
This dire summer, dire august that some on here speak of, fits exactly with my forecast that the crackdown would bite at this point as the ads removed autumn 2011 still had some pre bookings in for last summer. The ads removed back then are now long dead and no bookings be in hand beyond summer 2012. A typical illegal renter, if they were carrying on, would have repeat winter bookings ,family and friends , but for spring summer 2013 to be busy they would need new punters. Without internet ads there would be no guests to book in and arrive.
I feel that this is what we are seeing in the dire state of the resorts today. There has not been an Ai surge this summer as compares with last summer, I bet all the hotels were on the ai bandwagon last summer already. The serious damage we are seeing in resort this august will be down to the destruction of the holiday home rental sector.
Nelson what are you seeing if you are not here?
From Verónicas to Américas Plaza has Been full since the beginning of summer, im seeing a lot of movement this year.
Nelson what are you seeing if you are not here?
From Verónicas to Américas Plaza has Been full since the beginning of summer, im seeing a lot of movement this year.
I am speaking about what other posters are saying on here. Seancelt last weekend saying August so far worse than the quietest weeks of June, primrose today saying the bars restaurants near paloma beach , dire situation. There has been many such reports on here and other sites.
And of course canary unemployment is massive, not in step with a tourism based economy experiencing a tourist boom
Well that's very strange because the one's i have spoken to said it's the worse summer ever, won't name the bars but they all said it's so bad they will never make up what they have lost,you only have to drive along the road and see nearly every bar empty.To quote one of the owners of the bars you have named - It's Dire.
I find this laughable ! All over Facebook and the local press there are local business owners moaning about how all inclusive is killing the island......
...,, on paloma beach there is no all inclusive - we have no link to the pool bar and we advertise all the onsite bars in our welcome letter which is given to all of our customers.
Visitors are well up and the complex is full most of the time.
If these businesses cannot improve on their previous years when footfall is well up and the potential customers have already been advertised these businesses then they need to look at themselves.
Nelson what are you seeing if you are not here?
From Verónicas to Américas Plaza has Been full since the beginning of summer, im seeing a lot of movement this year.
Only in your bowels dear,lay off the Bran Flakes :D ;)
x
Only in your bowels dear,lay off the Bran Flakes :D ;)
x
Youre such a wit AL JAY, well youre half way there anyhow
Cheers
X
ai is not helping the bars/resturants, thats a fact. The bars restuarants were struggling with the ai menance just as the letting crackdown began. However the crackdown has removed hundred of thousands of tourists from the canaries because it has taken the apartment ads off the internet hoilday home sites. These sites are part of the evolution of the market, they are growing in popularity, they are well used, and hundreds of thousand of tourists are using them this summer to book apartments and take holidays.
They are much restricted in their choice on these sites in respect of the canaries, the govt has in effect taken the canaries out of this marketplace/shop window.
This dire summer, dire august that some on here speak of, fits exactly with my forecast that the crackdown would bite at this point as the ads removed autumn 2011 still had some pre bookings in for last summer. The ads removed back then are now long dead and no bookings be in hand beyond summer 2012. A typical illegal renter, if they were carrying on, would have repeat winter bookings ,family and friends , but for spring summer 2013 to be busy they would need new punters. Without internet ads there would be no guests to book in and arrive.
I feel that this is what we are seeing in the dire state of the resorts today. There has not been an Ai surge this summer as compares with last summer, I bet all the hotels were on the ai bandwagon last summer already. The serious damage we are seeing in resort this august will be down to the destruction of the holiday home rental sector.
We hear what you are saying, but the numbers from airport passengers don't stack up. How do you explain the increase of footfall through the airport as I listed some posts ago ??
Presumably, planes bring people in, they take one look at the island, then get on the next plane home - what you say simply doesn't add up.
If these figures showing increased numbers through the airport are due to an increase in AI visitors ... then that is good news. It shows that promotion of this style of holiday is working. Just imagine how "wealthy" the island would become if ALL other types of holiday were promoted in the same manner? I appreciate that the sole agent model is working well in Loaded's complex but can assure you Loaded that your complex is the exception not the rule.
Angusjim
25-08-2013, 08:57
I find this laughable ! All over Facebook and the local press there are local business owners moaning about how all inclusive is killing the island......
...,, on paloma beach there is no all inclusive - we have no link to the pool bar and we advertise all the onsite bars in our welcome letter which is given to all of our customers.
Visitors are well up and the complex is full most of the time.
If these businesses cannot improve on their previous years when footfall is well up and the potential customers have already been advertised these businesses then they need to look at themselves.
Nicely side stepped John:nono: its a great art not actually answering what Primrose actually wrote about, you should consider going into local politics. As I recall you said these places were all busy and she said not according to her info so who is correct:dontknow:
Nicely side stepped John:nono: its a great art not actually answering what Primrose actually wrote about, you should consider going into local politics. As I recall you said these places were all busy and she said not according to her info so who is correct:dontknow:
Sorry Jim , which of her questions did I side step???????
Angusjim
25-08-2013, 09:25
Sorry Jim , which of her questions did I side step???????
Are the bars busy or is trade dire ?
golf birdie
25-08-2013, 10:31
.
The attraction of AI is obvious and is it maybe that the bars that were busy 10 years ago have simply not evolved - or perhaps (as I tend to suspect), there are simply too many of them, and too few offering anything special.
Just askin'
AI has been here for many a year so it cannot be the sole cause of the drop in takings a lot of businesses are talking about this summer. Most of these places had a great summer last year so what has changed if the figures coming out are correct? One trader I know of is down on this July and August over 30% from last year,many more are talking the same sort of figures, money which covers for the lean times and some of them are not on any AI hotel door step. Also its not only bars, its a lot of places who rely on tourists spending so please don't keep saying they need to evolve.
just answering.
Are the bars busy or is trade dire ?
She didn't ask that question Jim she said:
"Well that's very strange because the one's i have spoken to said it's the worse summer ever, won't name the bars but they all said it's so bad they will never make up what they have lost,you only have to drive along the road and see nearly every bar empty.To quote one of the owners of the bars you have named - It's Dire. "
If you're asking me that question my answer would be: I don't know how they are doing compared to last year, 3 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. I don't have access to their accounts and I haven't asked all of the current owners. It's actually none of my business. But if they are not doing as well as before despite an increase in visitors to the complex I would say it's not up to me to force people to go into any of the bars and restuarants, we do give them all a plug and people will make up their own minds as to wether they want to go in or not - as the saying goes "you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink".
All types of tourism needs to be promoted here, not just hotels and AI. If the success seen on Paloma Beach were to be copied all over the island then great ... but it just isn't the case. How many lean years will we need to endure before the govt decides to try a new approach? Self catering holidays are big business and if run well then owners, holiday makers, businesses and the government can all be kept happy.
If the bars are doing worse that recent years then they do have to take a look at themselves - there are far more people staying on the complex than ever before so if the clients choose not to go in those bars and restaurants it could be down to several factors, I will list a few possible factors:
Increased competition in new bars with better entertainment, better selection of drinks, better furnishings..... El Mirador strip springs to mind - step into Taylors, Harveys, shambles, Mikeys then teleport yourself down and here and tell me where you'd rather be?
Out of date entertainment: Not everyone wants to be entertained with karaoke / tribute acts. See the success of Taylors Lounge who do not do entertainment.
Aiming at brits only: 10 years ago nearly every customer was a brit here - these days its very mixed and there is an international client base. Perhaps many unsuccesful bars have not changed to encourage this clientbase - 2.95 breakfast brigade anyone?
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Lack of updates: The owners of the shop units lease them to the people running it - this creates a "circle of doom", for example: owner of premises only cares about getting his monthly rent so he won't spend 50,000-100,000 on a refit for the tennants........ the tennants just paid their life savings to buy the trapaso from the last people so they don't want to blow 50,000-100,000 doing the place up because the business might fail, they might not survive in Tenerife, or the lease is too short to spend that kind of money on something thats not yours........ this results in a tired looking bar or restaurant that no one wants to put money into.
Are we basing the islands economy and success on whether on not a British bar is busy ?
I mentioned a while back that the go away and get hammered in a bar for 2 weeks is no longer the British way of holidaying (generalization)
The majority of British bars are ****, the decor is ****, the service is ****, the food is ****, the chairs are **** and watching Eastenders is ****.
People have moved on from that and want a bit of luxury thats why Papagayo, Sama Sama, Piccolos, Siam Park, Loro Parque, Paragliding, Boat excursions, Supermarkets, rent-a-car etc etc are booming.
The in thing at the moment for the under 40`s is champagne life style.
I agree 9+ x There is still a lot of room for even more holiday makers coming to these islands though. Many complexes that used to be full are now really quiet ... and that is not because they are tired or out of date, but simply because owners have stopped letting and do not wish to let via the agent they have in place.
Are we basing the islands economy and success on whether on not a British bar is busy ?
I mentioned a while back that the go away and get hammered in a bar for 2 weeks is no longer the British way of holidaying (generalization)
The majority of British bars are ****, the decor is ****, the service is ****, the food is ****, the chairs are **** and watching Eastenders is ****.
People have moved on from that and want a bit of luxury thats why Papagayo, Sama Sama, Piccolos, Siam Park, Loro Parque, Paragliding, Boat excursions, Supermarkets, rent-a-car etc etc are booming.
The in thing at the moment for the under 40`s is champagne life style.
But Karaoke still works right? Everyone wants that don't they? And a fry up?
Are the bars busy or is trade dire ?
I've been hearing that trade is dire from someone or other continuously for the last twenty five years, so it must be true.
The statistic of 2,800 bars closing refers to a four year period throughout the islands. Most of the ones in Tenerife are probably in the north, they are suffering a brutal recession up there.
Here in the south of the island tourism is booming. The Russians are spending a lot anyway.
Angusjim
25-08-2013, 12:28
I've been hearing that trade is dire from someone or other continuously for the last twenty five years, so it must be true.
The statistic of 2,800 bars closing refers to a four year period throughout the islands. Most of the ones in Tenerife are probably in the north, they are suffering a brutal recession up there.
Here in the south of the island tourism is booming. The Russians are spending a lot anyway.
I was not asking a general question about bars in Tenerife only about the bars in the Paloma area.
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She didn't ask that question Jim she said:
"Well that's very strange because the one's i have spoken to said it's the worse summer ever, won't name the bars but they all said it's so bad they will never make up what they have lost,you only have to drive along the road and see nearly every bar empty.To quote one of the owners of the bars you have named - It's Dire. "
If you're asking me that question my answer would be: I don't know how they are doing compared to last year, 3 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago. I don't have access to their accounts and I haven't asked all of the current owners. It's actually none of my business. But if they are not doing as well as before despite an increase in visitors to the complex I would say it's not up to me to force people to go into any of the bars and restuarants, we do give them all a plug and people will make up their own minds as to wether they want to go in or not - as the saying goes "you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink".
John I will have to take you to one of these bars and buy you a beer when I am over in December obviously only in the interest of a fact finding mission:scotland:
junglejim
25-08-2013, 12:31
I was not asking a general question about bars in Tenerife only about the bars in the Paloma area.
Are you planning to crowbar open your sporran when you come AJ ? Groats are out of circulation now ! :crylaughing:
Angusjim
25-08-2013, 12:34
Are you planning to crowbar open your sporran when you come AJ ? Groats are out of circulation now ! :crylaughing:
Its a misconception that Scots are tight with money I prefer to say careful
I was not asking a general question about bars in Tenerife only about the bars in the Paloma area.
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John I will have to take you to one of these bars and buy you a beer when I am over in December obviously only in the interest of a fact finding mission:scotland:
Can't we go to El Mirador instead? Bars are better up there lol!
I_N_Cognito
25-08-2013, 14:49
So’s the accommodation...
We hear what you are saying, but the numbers from airport passengers don't stack up. How do you explain the increase of footfall through the airport as I listed some posts ago ??
Presumably, planes bring people in, they take one look at the island, then get on the next plane home - what you say simply doesn't add up.
The numbers you are using you say are passenger numbers, so not strictly tourists. The numbers for tourists in hotels always exclude the illegal apartments, but would help a bit here to show the comparative numbers year on year for actual hotel tourists.
It remains possible that 2013 has seen a massive surge in ai tourists and hence the airport numbers you quote are holding up despite the removal of holiday home tourists from the marketplace. If that has actually happened then its such a pity that the holiday home rental market was attacked and discouraged, because the islands are no further forward in economic terms . If the holiday home market had been left to prosper then summer 2013 could have seen an increase in visitor numbers , more ai punters and also the holiday home rental tourists.
That might have meant canary unemployment would have fallen significantly
So’s the accommodation...
Touche!!!!!!!!
The numbers you are using you say are passenger numbers, so not strictly tourists. The numbers for tourists in hotels always exclude the illegal apartments, but would help a bit here to show the comparative numbers year on year for actual hotel tourists.
It remains possible that 2013 has seen a massive surge in ai tourists and hence the airport numbers you quote are holding up despite the removal of holiday home tourists from the marketplace. If that has actually happened then its such a pity that the holiday home rental market was attacked and discouraged, because the islands are no further forward in economic terms . If the holiday home market had been left to prosper then summer 2013 could have seen an increase in visitor numbers , more ai punters and also the holiday home rental tourists.
That might have meant canary unemployment would have fallen significantly
Stuffed if I am doing your homework for you!
However, all the Aena Spanish airport stats are available at their website. If you take a look you will also note something else rather interesting. Not only do they list passenger numbers month by month, they also list the number of plane movements and also the amount of freight passing through.
Taking, May's numbers alone, where passenger numbers were up 7.8 on the previous year, freight traffic through Tfs decreased by 15.9% for the same period. This is a pretty good indicator of how depressed the island actually really is.
Any argument that passenger numbers are not necessarily all tourists is one thing, but the same statistics would seem to suggest there is unlikely to be much of an increase in business trips.
Since it is you though, here's the link you need :- http://www.aena-aeropuertos.es/csee/Satellite/estadisticas/en
The numbers you are using you say are passenger numbers, so not strictly tourists. The numbers for tourists in hotels always exclude the illegal apartments, but would help a bit here to show the comparative numbers year on year for actual hotel tourists.
It remains possible that 2013 has seen a massive surge in ai tourists and hence the airport numbers you quote are holding up despite the removal of holiday home tourists from the marketplace. If that has actually happened then its such a pity that the holiday home rental market was attacked and discouraged, because the islands are no further forward in economic terms . If the holiday home market had been left to prosper then summer 2013 could have seen an increase in visitor numbers , more ai punters and also the holiday home rental tourists.
That might have meant canary unemployment would have fallen significantly
I'm afraid your arguments are becoming somewhat tedious, nelson. Check out this article to see who exactly is unemployed in Tenerife
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/2013/08/mas-del-70-parados-del-sur-superan-estudios-primarios/?utm_content=buffer5c9c7&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
Yes, 70% of the unemployed in the South (where most of the tourists are) have only finished primary education.
Were there to be a boom again in the construction industry, some of these sadly uneducated locals might find employment, but hardly in the Tourism sector, where one of the main requisites is languages :(
And Yes, it is a busy Summer on Playa Las Americas seafront :)
What with the Middle East problems and Egypt in particular Tenerife should be bulging at the seams yet cheap flight are everywhere so it obvious there's a lot of unused capacity so I think the big question the Tenerife tourist people need to ask is what are we doing wrong
What with the Middle East problems and Egypt in particular Tenerife should be bulging at the seams yet cheap flight are everywhere so it obvious there's a lot of unused capacity so I think the big question the Tenerife tourist people need to ask is what are we doing wrong
Don't think Tenerife, or the Canaries in general are necessarily doing anything wrong, there are more tourists here than ever before it seems. Whether things could be done better though is an entirely different question.
seanocelt
26-08-2013, 10:48
What with the Middle East problems and Egypt in particular Tenerife should be bulging at the seams yet cheap flight are everywhere so it obvious there's a lot of unused capacity so I think the big question the Tenerife tourist people need to ask is what are we doing wrong
cheap flights after kids go back to school is the norm in fact we anticipate/look forward to it here, drinkers arrive.
At the end of the day it comes down to plain simple logic. The pro crackdown camp would have us believe that the holiday home letting industry had been savaged without any negative impact on tourist footfall and the canaries economy / unemployment figures.
In reality that idea just defies commonsense. Even if tourist numbers are holding up without the holiday home industry , surely to also have had these customers in the resorts would have been been the best situation?
There was never a sane case to want to exclude and damage this longstanding part of canary tourism
Your holiday home can be rented out legally nelson but you choose not to.
So you took yours off the market for no reason
The 1995 law is illegal under eu law.no where on earth is it seen as necessary to give control of the renting to a monopoly agent , it's just a completely unnecessary cost add on to the customer. Customers want to rent individual holiday homes , that's the point, not hotel style mass managed places.
That silly nonsense will certainly be put to bed at the end of this
Albatros
26-08-2013, 18:06
. Customers want to rent individual holiday homes , that's the point, not hotel style mass managed places.
Now I am confused. I thought this was about holiday apartments and not individual holiday homes. Good or bad, all of the apartments I have used have felt like mass managed places. As long as the place was nice, clean, a fair price and in a location that suited me, I really didn't care how my rental fee was divided.
Now I am confused. I thought this was about holiday apartments and not individual holiday homes. Good or bad, all of the apartments I have used have felt like mass managed places. As long as the place was nice, clean, a fair price and in a location that suited me, I really didn't care how my rental fee was divided.
Yes the mass managed style apartment block experience is far from what many tourists want to stay in. They prefer an individually owned apartment that is rented to them direct from the owner. The furnishings and fittings will be as provided by the owner, there will be no reception ,indeed the experience will be unlike a hotel or a nearly hotel, as the sole agent places demanded by the 1995 laws tend to be.
Quite simply you chose to rent an individual apartment direct from the owner, your preferred choice of holiday accommodation , a completely normal and uncontroversial option the world over
delderek
26-08-2013, 18:47
Yes the mass managed style apartment block experience is far from what many tourists want to stay in. They prefer an individually owned apartment that is rented to them direct from the owner. The furnishings and fittings will be as provided by the owner, there will be no reception ,indeed the experience will be unlike a hotel or a nearly hotel, as the sole agent places demanded by the 1995 laws tend to be.
Quite simply you chose to rent an individual apartment direct from the owner, your preferred choice of holiday accommodation , a completely normal and uncontroversial option the world over
You really are trying to tar everything with the same brush. Next time you are over, wander into Royal Palm. (for instance) Not an Apartment block, all are individually owned and furnished to the owners taste, and in many cases you can book direct with the owner, but that will then be handled by the sole agent, and it will be Legal. They can also contact reception if a problem occurs.
Ive spoken to holiday markers in that complex and they tell that they are moré than happen there and that 80 complex called sur y sol is a bit outdated apparently some of the owner havent spent a penny over the years keeping them maintained
You really are trying to tar everything with the same brush. Next time you are over, wander into Royal Palm. (for instance) Not an Apartment block, all are individually owned and furnished to the owners taste, and in many cases you can book direct with the owner, but that will then be handled by the sole agent, and it will be Legal. They can also contact reception if a problem occurs.
why does royal palm need a sole agent? surely the owners could rent happily either with or without agents? but a sole agent , dont see where they need to be involved ?
as far as I know el mirador used to fill up and was very popular without a sole agent or a reception?
delderek
26-08-2013, 21:13
why does royal palm need a sole agent? surely the owners could rent happily either with or without agents? but a sole agent , dont see where they need to be involved ?
as far as I know el mirador used to fill up and was very popular without a sole agent or a reception?
To quote a phrase from a well known advert, SIMPLES,,because it's the law.
To quote a phrase from a well known advert, SIMPLES,,because it's the law.
Agreed , but basically other than that, you would never have heard of such nonsense.
Eu law won't permit a market distortion like that, if customers are free to book self catering accommodation throughout Europe at the best market price, it won't be legally possible to make them pay for apartments in the canaries at a higher price to pay for the unnecessary sole agent.
The eu market for self catering holiday accommodation has legally to be in harmony.
It can't under eu law exist any other way, and the eu consumer is king
Albatros
26-08-2013, 22:18
if customers are free to book self catering accommodation throughout Europe at the best market price, it won't be legally possible to make them pay for apartments in the canaries at a higher price to pay for the unnecessary sole agent.
What has the sole agent got to do with the market price? Surely, the price for the apartment will be set to ensure optimum occupancy. The fact that the owner's share of that price may be lower in an apartment managed by sole agency will clearly affect the owner's cut but not the market attractiveness.
Now if the reduced profit makes the enterprise unviable then there is indeed cause for concern. Given that the law has been in place for several years, this is a problem with the owner's business model.
I have no axe to grind either for or against sole agency. As in any business, the cost of any real or perceived added value of the sole agent must be easily justifiable irrespective of any legal requirement.
No your not doing the maths, your plain wrong on that. If you want to stay in an apartment without a sole agent you won't be paying for his personal profit . Understandably sole agents don't work for nothing so you pay for the apartment rent with the sole agents cut on top. Either that or the owner of the apartment takes a reduced share of the going rent to let the sole agent have their cut, we do have many cases of that on this thread.
Look eu wide on the holiday home Internet sites and you can chose holiday homes in Ireland , France , Portugal , uk and you know you are not being made to pay more for sole agents and the other hotel style add ons demanded by the 1995 canary letting laws. Remember 24 hour reception , maid service, these are hotel type extra costs.
For eu market harmony things have to be the same , the 1995 letting laws very much distort that situation, eu law won't allow this
No youre not opening your eyes these are not just hotel type extra costs these are to make the dodgers pay what they havent for years and its nos the Canarian way,
junglejim
27-08-2013, 08:57
Albatross says "What has the sole agent got to do with the market price? Surely, the price for the apartment will be set to ensure optimum occupancy. The fact that the owner's share of that price may be lower in an apartment managed by sole agency will clearly affect the owner's cut but not the market attractiveness."
I think you are missing a major (if repetitive) point -the legally required sole agent is in control of the payments to the owner of the apartment and also to the rental cost . In some cases this payment to the owner is acceptable and fair and in others outright monopolistic bullying -in virtually all cases , rent through the sole owner or not at all (legally) .
Loaded has already given a reasonable breakdown of his model , he has stated he would like to charge more by raising standards -Konrad forces you to accept much less as an owner and drives standards down to basic level but still commands relatively high market rates in keeping with his Ashotel chums .
The point of contention here is , once established, a sole agent is in control -the owner has to rent under their conditions or not at all (legally) . Removal of an established sole agent isnīt easy .
Albatross says "What has the sole agent got to do with the market price? Surely, the price for the apartment will be set to ensure optimum occupancy. The fact that the owner's share of that price may be lower in an apartment managed by sole agency will clearly affect the owner's cut but not the market attractiveness."
I think you are missing a major (if repetitive) point -the legally required sole agent is in control of the payments to the owner of the apartment and also to the rental cost . In some cases this payment to the owner is acceptable and fair and in others outright monopolistic bullying -in virtually all cases , rent through the sole owner or not at all (legally) .
Loaded has already given a reasonable breakdown of his model , he has stated he would like to charge more by raising standards -Konrad forces you to accept much less as an owner and drives standards down to basic level but still commands relatively high market rates in keeping with his Ashotel chums .
The point of contention here is , once established, a sole agent is in control -the owner has to rent under their conditions or not at all (legally) . Removal of an established sole agent isnīt easy .
So apart from Loaded (good agent) and Conrad (apparently an ugly agent) can you please list all of the outright monopolistic bullying sole agents that give this trade a bad name.
Removal of an established sole agent isnīt easy
50%+1 will remove any sole agent, clearly stated in Law if you can't move 50%+1 owner then they don't feel the same way as you.
Note, please add a list of sole agents that own a great deal of apartments so we know which complexes it wouldnt be very easy to obtain the 50%+1.
junglejim
27-08-2013, 09:46
Ripping the pash as usual 9Plus ,in our area Konrad has control of Panorama,Club Atlantis, Santa Maria,Altamira -he no longer has control in Los Geranios .Thatīs about 1200 beds in our area at the west end of Las Americas .
http://www.hovima-hotels.com/es.html?gclid=CMye89WenbkCFQTMtAodNWEABg
I know what it takes to remove a sole agent ,my comment was "It wasnīt easy "- getting all the required numbers to agree , appointing a new sole agent as Altimar has stated is a nightmare - we were lucky , Konrad crossed one of his partners on our complex and lost control .
I am not privvy to all the sole agents but I am well experienced in dealings with Konrad and his methods , you seem to be suggesting Konrad is the type of sole agent we need , monopolistic and bullying ?
You can always tell when Nelson's argument is falling apart when he digs up EU law.
Back in the early days the EU were well aware of the Canarian Laws regarding letting and requirements for sole agents. indeed they insisted in a few modifications to it, but Canarian law it was and had the green light from the EU. Yes there have been further EU directives dating from both before and since, aimed at harmonising other aspects of the EU and the way it works, which include both the Bolkstein Directive and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU), otherwise referred to as the eight Ultra-peripheral regions. Neither outlaw or over-rule the Canarian Letting Laws of 1995, in fact it seems they go some way to enhancing them.
I don't disagree with the comments made on how some sole agents operate, but I do agree with the principle of them as a means of collecting local taxes for the benefit of the island(s) and country in which we live, rather than what has been the norm for those letting under the radar, pocketing cash in, for example the UK, with no regard to those of us who live here, pay our taxes here and benefit accordingly. A concerted and joined up approach to Government which, on the one hand accepts the Canarian letting laws, but seeks to make it easier for communities to decide which agent to appoint and makes agents more accountable to their clients should, and could be the way to go.
Agreed , but basically other than that, you would never have heard of such nonsense.
Eu law won't permit a market distortion like that, if customers are free to book self catering accommodation throughout Europe at the best market price, it won't be legally possible to make them pay for apartments in the canaries at a higher price to pay for the unnecessary sole agent.
The eu market for self catering holiday accommodation has legally to be in harmony.
It can't under eu law exist any other way, and the eu consumer is king
Interesting article here about Berlin and AirBnB. I think many a government or local authority is now waking up to how large this market has grown and what undeclared income is there to be taxed. And of course, the established hotel industry will cry - unfair competition
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/berlin-to-penalize-short-term-rental-companies-like-airbnb-in-fall-a-916416.html
Starting this fall, people in Berlin who rent out apartment space for short periods could face steep fines. Politicians say the measure will help combat ballooning rents. But opponents counter that it is a gift to the hotel industry as it battles competition from companies like Airbnb.
Similar laws are already on the books in popular tourist cities, such as San Francisco, London and Paris. In Germany, Munich and Hamburg have also taken steps to curb illegal private rentals. According to the local SPD representatives, the supply of lucrative vacation apartments has increased by 40 percent in recent years, while ordinary apartment are becoming scarcer.
AirBnB appeals to the younger market, originally the idea was for "sharing" but now widely used to advertise stand alone holiday rentals
https://www.airbnb.com/s/Tenerife--Spain
Ripping the pash as usual 9Plus ,in our area Konrad has control of Panorama,Club Atlantis, Santa Maria,Altamira -he no longer has control in Los Geranios .Thatīs about 1200 beds in our area at the west end of Las Americas .
http://www.hovima-hotels.com/es.html?gclid=CMye89WenbkCFQTMtAodNWEABg
I know what it takes to remove a sole agent ,my comment was "It wasnīt easy "- getting all the required numbers to agree , appointing a new sole agent as Altimar has stated is a nightmare - we were lucky , Konrad crossed one of his partners on our complex and lost control .
I am not privvy to all the sole agents but I am well experienced in dealings with Konrad and his methods , you seem to be suggesting Konrad is the type of sole agent we need , monopolistic and bullying ?
That's better, you have no experience with any other sole agent other than Konrad, (a possible 4 complexes)
So how many sole agent run complexes are there is the 3 complexes Konrad runs a majority or a minority?
Lets try to ascertain how many there are and what the procedure/deals are for the owner/tourist
So we don't get remarks like all sole agent are etc etc etc
It's easy if everyone thinks the same, i understand it wouldn't be easy if only a few of you thought that way.
you seem to be suggesting Konrad is the type of sole agent we need , monopolistic and bullying ?
How embarrassing Jim you're jumping to conclusions again
junglejim
27-08-2013, 12:53
Not embarrassing at all , youīre defecting from the point I made to Albatross that the sole agent has control of the prices and payments , the owner has to comply , rent outside the system illegally , come to an "arrangement" with sole agent or desist , not much of a free market there!
Also donīt misquote me , I didnīt say all -youīre the one who keeps standing up for monopolistic sole agents !
Albatros
27-08-2013, 13:36
Thanks, JungleJim. I wasn't aware about the price being set by the agent irrespective of any input from the owner.
Not embarrassing at all , youīre defecting from the point I made to Albatross that the sole agent has control of the prices and payments , the owner has to comply , rent outside the system illegally , come to an "arrangement" with sole agent or desist , not much of a free market there!
Also donīt misquote me , I didnīt say all -youīre the one who keeps standing up for monopolistic sole agents !
Apology accepted.
Dear Nelson
Foreign tourists visiting the Canary Islands during the first seven months of the year (2013) spent €6,240 million which represents 7.7% more than the same period of 2012, according to the Tourism Expenditure Survey (Egatur) which was released today by the Ministry of Industry, Energy and Tourism.
The average expenditure per tourist increased in that period by 6.7% reaching a spend of €1,066 euros per person. The daily spend per tourist increased by 5.3% reaching €110.
Nationally, foreign tourists that visited Spain in the first seven months of 2013 spent €32,210 million, which is 6% more than in the same period of 2012, according to the Tourism Expenditure Survey (EGATUR).
The increase in average spending per tourist from January to July was up 2% to €949 euros, while the daily spend by tourist increased 2.1% to reach €108.
Sorry things are still not going according to (your) plan
xx
Dear Nelson
Foreign tourists visiting the Canary Islands during the first seven months of the year (2013) spent €6,240 million which represents 7.7% more than the same period of 2012, according to the Tourism Expenditure Survey (Egatur) which was released today by the Ministry of Industry, Energy and Tourism.
The average expenditure per tourist increased in that period by 6.7% reaching a spend of €1,066 euros per person. The daily spend per tourist increased by 5.3% reaching €110.
Nationally, foreign tourists that visited Spain in the first seven months of 2013 spent €32,210 million, which is 6% more than in the same period of 2012, according to the Tourism Expenditure Survey (EGATUR).
The increase in average spending per tourist from January to July was up 2% to €949 euros, while the daily spend by tourist increased 2.1% to reach €108.
Sorry things are still not going according to (your) plan
xx
yeah but yeah but yeah but warrabout all doz ****ty tax dodge apartamentos..........................pal ŋ
there does seem to be a lot of everythings booming numbers in the press these days. I still say commonsense is needed. If the canaries were actually enjoying a tourist boom then canary unemployment would not be so massive. also it is beyond insane for anyone beyond the economic mindset of Idi Amin or robert Mugabawe, to imagine that the canaries can withdraw from the holiday home letting marketplace and decide that at this time in the evolution of tourism the canaries should be excluded from internet advertised holiday home rents.
Even if the glowing numbers are true, come on, surely had the holiday home industry not been attacked and so many ads taken from the internet , then the situation today would have been even better for the canary tourist industry and markets.
A win win scenario would have existed in summer 2013.
Without engaging and encouraging the holiday home rental market the canary economy is always going to be missing a chunk of the tourist sector , now and in the future.
Whatever glowing numbers are stated there could always be that important chunk of more business for the islands.
Thats why the govt/turismos actions are criminal insanity. The tourist economy can never fire on all cylinders or run on all four wheels without the holiday home renting sector.
there does seem to be a lot of everythings booming numbers in the press these days. I still say commonsense is needed. If the canaries were actually enjoying a tourist boom then canary unemployment would not be so massive. also it is beyond insane for anyone beyond the economic mindset of Idi Amin or robert Mugabawe, to imagine that the canaries can withdraw from the holiday home letting marketplace and decide that at this time in the evolution of tourism the canaries should be excluded from internet advertised holiday home rents.
Even if the glowing numbers are true, come on, surely had the holiday home industry not been attacked and so many ads taken from the internet , then the situation today would have been even better for the canary tourist industry and markets.
A win win scenario would have existed in summer 2013.
Without engaging and encouraging the holiday home rental market the canary economy is always going to be missing a chunk of the tourist sector , now and in the future.
Whatever glowing numbers are stated there could always be that important chunk of more business for the islands.
Thats why the govt/turismos actions are criminal insanity. The tourist economy can never fire on all cylinders or run on all four wheels without the holiday home renting sector.
Perhaps their aim is to regulate the quality of the tourism and impose some sort of control on safety standards, thinking of the long term reputation of the island.
This would in turn encourage tourists with more spending capacity. . . . . . . well that seems to be working.
One must also think of the long term residents and how they affect the economy.
I had a friend who was driven to sell up and move from a residential complex in Los Cristianos because the partying tourists were making life unbearable. . . . . . too late for him.
there does seem to be a lot of everythings booming numbers in the press these days. I still say commonsense is needed. If the canaries were actually enjoying a tourist boom then canary unemployment would not be so massive. also it is beyond insane for anyone beyond the economic mindset of Idi Amin or robert Mugabawe, to imagine that the canaries can withdraw from the holiday home letting marketplace and decide that at this time in the evolution of tourism the canaries should be excluded from internet advertised holiday home rents.
Even if the glowing numbers are true, come on, surely had the holiday home industry not been attacked and so many ads taken from the internet , then the situation today would have been even better for the canary tourist industry and markets.
A win win scenario would have existed in summer 2013.
Without engaging and encouraging the holiday home rental market the canary economy is always going to be missing a chunk of the tourist sector , now and in the future.
Whatever glowing numbers are stated there could always be that important chunk of more business for the islands.
Thats why the govt/turismos actions are criminal insanity. The tourist economy can never fire on all cylinders or run on all four wheels without the holiday home renting sector.
But, as many have been trying to say for some time, under the counter private letting does nothing whatsoever for the Canarian economy, other than perhaps further encourage under the counter employment whch does nothing either and about which there are reports elsewhere on the net - News in the Sun being one.
Unemployment has fallen in recent months, not enough by far, but it has dropped a little. In any event not all the unemployed used to work in the hospitality sector which itself only represents about 30% of the collective islands GDP.
What the Canarian Government have in mind is offering a high class and controlled tourism industry, and it seems, perhaps against all odds, they are achieving it.
The fundamental problem the economy has is the black market, which is exactly what you were contributing too with your under the counter activities.
For the moment, and until you win your case in the European Courts, which I assume is still your intention, you would appear to be somewhat stuffed.
I want to start a business driving people to and from the airport in my own car, it has wheels , passed its ITV and I will get insurance and pass the SP license test ....- I don't want to join the local taxi company or be forced to buy a fleet of buses - it will just be me in my Ford fiesta.
Why can't I do this in Tenerife without joining the taxi company who will take a load of money off me when I don't need them ?
It's so monopolistic!
junglejim
27-08-2013, 19:05
Why then donīt you go and ask a taxi driver for his taxi that you will use ,collect the fares and give him €40 a week for the favor and let him use it on the. worst 4 weeks of the year .During that 4 weeks he can then repair and service it ,might even put new tyres on it for you too !
Why then donīt you go and ask a taxi driver for his taxi that you will use ,collect the fares and give him €40 a week for the favor and let him use it on the. worst 4 weeks of the year .During that 4 weeks he can then repair and service it ,might even put new tyres on it for you too !
One of me pals is a sole agent, he says ow at duck course, you can use your apartamento whenever you like, over summer and easter and christimas no problem, but dunna expect any money off me for the rest of the year, if you dunna like it ****ing sling your hook and if i hear you've rented out and ill denonce you and nick all your copper.
Lovely bloke
x
But, as many have been trying to say for some time, under the counter private letting does nothing whatsoever for the Canarian economy, other than perhaps further encourage under the counter employment whch does nothing either and about which there are reports elsewhere on the net - News in the Sun being one.
Unemployment has fallen in recent months, not enough by far, but it has dropped a little. In any event not all the unemployed used to work in the hospitality sector which itself only represents about 30% of the collective islands GDP.
What the Canarian Government have in mind is offering a high class and controlled tourism industry, and it seems, perhaps against all odds, they are achieving it.
The fundamental problem the economy has is the black market, which is exactly what you were contributing too with your under the counter activities.
For the moment, and until you win your case in the European Courts, which I assume is still your intention, you would appear to be somewhat stuffed.
The black economy does infact contribute to economic growth and prosperity , both in the canaries and around the world. All consumer spending drives the economy , holiday home tourists spend in the resorts just like all other visitors. A sensible tax payment should be taken from the renters, an annual permit payment seems to me the best fiscal system for this type of renting.
Notwithstanding that though, the people stating in the holiday homes would benefit the economy clearly.
Why then donīt you go and ask a taxi driver for his taxi that you will use ,collect the fares and give him 40 a week for the favor and let him use it on the. worst 4 weeks of the year .During that 4 weeks he can then repair and service it ,might even put new tyres on it for you too !
Tell me why I can't just do my own taxi runs in my clio without becoming part of the taxi companies...
The black economy does infact contribute to economic growth and prosperity , both in the canaries and around the world. All consumer spending drives the economy , holiday home tourists spend in the resorts just like all other visitors. A sensible tax payment should be taken from the renters, an annual permit payment seems to me the best fiscal system for this type of renting.
Notwithstanding that though, the people stating in the holiday homes would benefit the economy clearly.
I'll drop a quick line to Herman Van Rompuy and ask him if he might possibly make an exception for you on the basis that your clients are single-handedly keeping the Canarian and other economies around Europe afloat. Not sure the response will be in your favour though.
He might even let Loaded get his Clio Taxi service going too :laugh::laugh::laugh:
I'll drop a quick line to Herman Van Rompuy and ask him if he might possibly make an exception for you on the basis that your clients are single-handedly keeping the Canarian and other economies around Europe afloat. Not sure the response will be in your favour though.
He might even let Loaded get his Clio Taxi service going too :laugh::laugh::laugh:
That would be great! It will compliment my other business of selling cans of lager to punters on bars terraces!
The black economy does infact contribute to economic growth and prosperity , both in the canaries and around the world. All consumer spending drives the economy , holiday home tourists spend in the resorts just like all other visitors. A sensible tax payment should be taken from the renters, an annual permit payment seems to me the best fiscal system for this type of renting.
Notwithstanding that though, the people stating in the holiday homes would benefit the economy clearly.
haven't you just been taxed ?
Why then donīt you go and ask a taxi driver for his taxi that you will use ,collect the fares and give him €40 a week for the favor and let him use it on the. worst 4 weeks of the year .During that 4 weeks he can then repair and service it ,might even put new tyres on it for you too !
You are wasting your time trying to put over an 'alternative' argument on this thread because the chuckle brothers...aka Loaded and 9 Plus...have an answer for everything....'to me....to you....to me....to you....' hee hee hee!
Red Devil
28-08-2013, 08:41
You are wasting your time trying to put over an 'alternative' argument on this thread because the chuckle brothers...aka Loaded and 9 Plus...have an answer for everything....'to me....to you....to me....to you....' hee hee hee!
As I see it JJ is offering a parallel not an alternative?
You are wasting your time trying to put over an 'alternative' argument on this thread because the chuckle brothers...aka Loaded and 9 Plus...have an answer for everything....'to me....to you....to me....to you....' hee hee hee!
Haahaahahahahaahaahahahahahhahaahahaahahhshahahaha hahaahhasahhHAHhhHHhhhhHHhahHaahahahahhaahahahahah ahhahahhahahHahaahahhahHhHhHhHhHhhHAaaaahahahahaha hahahahahahaha
You are wasting your time trying to put over an 'alternative' argument on this thread because the chuckle brothers...aka Loaded and 9 Plus...have an answer for everything....'to me....to you....to me....to you....' hee hee hee!
You are correct, but I would also like to thank the Canarian Government for tightning up on the illegal holiday letting trade, as you can clearly see we are now getting more tourists to the island and individual holiday maker spending is up thanks to the clampdown.
I love a pat on the back every now and again,
cheers
x
In between Faņabe and Playa Paraiso the only places you can legally book a self catering holiday are the Baobab (not sure if has started taking bookings yet .. think they open in October) and Altamira. All other complexes are residential. You would presume then that Altamira would be packed wouldn't you? The truth of the matter is Konrad has a lot less than the 50%+1 required to hold his licence, yet he still operates. The few apartments he rents out are full, but the majority are sat empty while their owners are in Uk/Germany/France/Italy etc. Trying to mobilise the owners to obtain a new agent has proved a waste of time. There is a divide between the two main nationalities (British and German) where the German owners believe that the the Brits have "brought the fines upon themselves by opening advertising on the internet". They believe, and will not be convinced otherwise, that any owner can let their apartment privately as long as they only advertise in their own country (in newspapers, shop windows etc) and take money in their own country. They are happy to allow Konrad to continue with his few rental apartments and his time-share apartments. Without a proportion of them signing up to a new agent it is impossible to change the situation. Most owners have bought their apartment to use as a holiday home themselves at certain times throughout the year ... they can not do that if they sign up with Konrad ....so their only option is to cease renting. So ...........this massive area, with a beautiful beach and lovely bars and restaurants that used to welcome holiday makers in their droves has only a very few legal self catering beds on offer. I hear all the arguments that this system is working elsewhere on the island ... but it certainly isn't effective here!
And hearing a chuckle brothers joke is always funny - it never gets old!
For those unfamiliar with using a chuckle brothers joke / put down the basic premise is the following : if two people are doing something you find funny or stupid, compare them with these 1980s styled "comedians " whose slapstick antics included the catchphrase "from me to you, from me to you".
Once you have spotted your targets, point out that they are like the chuckle brothers, laugh if you feel the time is right - and then go on to coin their hilarious catchphrase "from me to you, from me to you!" - if in a real life situation you may wish to use your hands to give them an imaginary object to further illustrate the joke.
By now everyone with you will be laughing verily and patting you on the back for your original and clever put down - well done you are now the centre of attention and your Chuckle Brothers joke will be talked about for days to come - "remember that hilarious chuckle brothers put down that was pulled out the other night darling? Ho ho that really showed them! How clever to compare two people to two OTHER PEOPLE from a long time ago!"
Ah yes, comedy is alive and well.
Red Devil
28-08-2013, 12:30
In between Faņabe and Playa Paraiso the only places you can legally book a self catering holiday are the Baobab (not sure if has started taking bookings yet .. think they open in October) and Altamira. All other complexes are residential. You would presume then that Altamira would be packed wouldn't you? The truth of the matter is Konrad has a lot less than the 50%+1 required to hold his licence, yet he still operates. The few apartments he rents out are full, but the majority are sat empty while their owners are in Uk/Germany/France/Italy etc. Trying to mobilise the owners to obtain a new agent has proved a waste of time. There is a divide between the two main nationalities (British and German) where the German owners believe that the the Brits have "brought the fines upon themselves by opening advertising on the internet". They believe, and will not be convinced otherwise, that any owner can let their apartment privately as long as they only advertise in their own country (in newspapers, shop windows etc) and take money in their own country. They are happy to allow Konrad to continue with his few rental apartments and his time-share apartments. Without a proportion of them signing up to a new agent it is impossible to change the situation. Most owners have bought their apartment to use as a holiday home themselves at certain times throughout the year ... they can not do that if they sign up with Konrad ....so their only option is to cease renting. So ...........this massive area, with a beautiful beach and lovely bars and restaurants that used to welcome holiday makers in their droves has only a very few legal self catering beds on offer. I hear all the arguments that this system is working elsewhere on the island ... but it certainly isn't effective here!
We ourselves have had a long standing option to purchase an apartment on a complex that we have loved for many years and is at the moment unregistered (or lapsed) tourist. Ie no one agent, but of course we are fully expecting that will eventually have to be sorted out one way or another.
Until then we are in limbo with our plans - we wanted to stay there ourselves for the winter months and holiday rent to help pay the bills during the summer months but that option might not longer become available - what a crazy, crazy situation for everyone.
And hearing a chuckle brothers joke is always funny - it never gets old!
For those unfamiliar with using a chuckle brothers joke / put down the basic premise is the following : if two people are doing something you find funny or stupid, compare them with these 1980s styled "comedians " whose slapstick antics included the catchphrase "from me to you, from me to you".
Once you have spotted your targets, point out that they are like the chuckle brothers, laugh if you feel the time is right - and then go on to coin their hilarious catchphrase "from me to you, from me to you!" - if in a real life situation you may wish to use your hands to give them an imaginary object to further illustrate the joke.
By now everyone with you will be laughing verily and patting you on the back for your original and clever put down - well done you are now the centre of attention and your Chuckle Brothers joke will be talked about for days to come - "remember that hilarious chuckle brothers put down that was pulled out the other night darling? Ho ho that really showed them! How clever to compare two people to two OTHER PEOPLE from a long time ago!"
Ah yes, comedy is alive and well.
That's a long post..it really got to you didn't it..:laugh:
That's a long post..it really got to you didn't it..:laugh:
I am wounded beyond belief........
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