View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
It might be a similar law as they have in Portugal and parts of Spain but this clamp down is due to a Canarian law not a Spanish gov law.
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 11:02
Sorry its not just a law in Canaries Its also in main land Spain and there has been a camp down there. Do you not think the government controls all Laws of the country what world are you living in. This law was in force in Portugal in 2008 in a similar form, which could not be inforced. Have a look at holiday letting in Portugal since 2008. You have to apply for individual Liecence 600 euros be inspected have basic safety requirements and pay your TAXES.
Spain is in consistuted of 17 Autonomous Regions (Comunidades Autónomas) one of Which is the Territory of the Canary Islands.
Ley 7 1995 Ley de Tourismo is a Canarian Law peculiar to the region.
Yeah "what world are you living in"...........................Pal
x
I have been watching this thread with interest over the last few months as we usually come over 3 times a year and stay in either Parque Santiago 1 or 2. It was a suprise to hear that we had obvioulsy been staying in apts that have been illegally let. We are coming over for Xmas & New Year and after everything that has gone on with fines etc it is very suprising to still see most of the apts that I have considered in the past still showing on the three most popular websites!!! I am not commenting on total figures in Tenerife just on the 2 complexes that we normally stay, but it doesnt seem to have put off the private advertisments on these apts??? They must be very brave!!!
I have been watching this thread with interest over the last few months as we usually come over 3 times a year and stay in either Parque Santiago 1 or 2. It was a suprise to hear that we had obvioulsy been staying in apts that have been illegally let. We are coming over for Xmas & New Year and after everything that has gone on with fines etc it is very suprising to still see most of the apts that I have considered in the past still showing on the three most popular websites!!! I am not commenting on total figures in Tenerife just on the 2 complexes that we normally stay, but it doesnt seem to have put off the private advertisments on these apts??? They must be very brave!!! Or stupid,!
Very true! Does anybody know if any fines have been issued in either Parque Santiago 1 or 2???
Hopey
Or stupid,!
Or possibly have made enough money not to worry about a hefty fine ???
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 11:52
Very true! Does anybody know if any fines have been issued in either Parque Santiago 1 or 2???
Hopey
No way of knowing for certain.
Fines may have been issued direct to UK or Spanish adresses.
Failing that they are listed on the official daily Boletins.
jogger321
22-11-2011, 12:15
So in addition to dear old ******* on El Mirador who is mentioned on the bulletin who they believe had breached the law, there is another who continues to advertise
Perhaps somebody might like to ask the lady who now has stars in her eyes to remove her name from her advert. I would NEVER post somebodys name on this forum unless it was freely available and posted by them in the public domain and in this particular instance offering to rent out her apartment on El Mirador giving her full name and phone contact details
Only her first name has been given on here. Her full name appears on her advert which she set up
Only her first name has been given on here. Her full name appears on her advert which she set up
Also her full name & N.I.E. number appears on the Boletin Oficial de Canarias
I know that David (fixer) contacted her to tell her. Was she blissfully unaware or did she already know?
I know that David (fixer) contacted her to tell her. Was she blissfully unaware or did she already know?
we have just found out that we have been fined in last weeks bolitin 21,000 euros for the illegal letting. we have two aparetments in los cristianos, have owned them for 8 years.
What needs to happen is that the law is changed. There should be no reason why individuals or groups can not let private apatments in the tourist zones. The island economy needs the visitors. Taxi companies ,restuarants and shops can not survive without thye vast number of tourists who use the private apartments.
People like us who have been fined need to form a group to fight the law as it stands, clearly it is anti competitive. Also other interest groups should join eg, local taxi associations , restuarants etc. pressure needs to be demonstrated that the law is plain wrong and needs to go.
The damage for the island economy is already starting as people come off the internet sites. Bookings may exist for this winter but without internet advertising the apartments will dry up from spring next year onwards. At that point if the canarian government realised the enormity of the situation and relented , it would take several months to get the people to start re booking into apartments if the adverts went back on line at that point.
There is enormous bad press to come as this issue explodes in the press/tv internationally as people read of illegal tourism in the canaries.
To update people we have been fined for letting dated september 2010 and internet advertising dated october 2010, so coming of the web today or last week may not have helped ?
One other person on our complex was fined with us ,18,000 euros, three others on the same internet site have not been.
It helps if you dont name your complex directly in your advert or give apartment numbers.
That said I am not encouraging people to go underground, the answer is a campaign group of Brits and locals to get the law changed.
You must be gutted, If someone was paying TAX on one of these currently illegal touristic apartments
When appealing the fine would this TAX already paid go in favour of reducing the fine?
Sorry to hear that you got fined, were you aware of this 16 year old law in all the 8 years you were renting the properties?
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 13:49
.
People like us who have been fined need to form a group to fight the law as it stands, clearly it is anti competitive. Also other interest groups should join eg, local taxi associations , restuarants etc. pressure needs to be demonstrated that the law is plain wrong and needs to go.
2 groups have previously challenged this law form 2005 both without success. Ciudadnos Europeos even lodged a complaint withwith courts in the EU which also failed.
The Canaries have been granted an exception to normal anti competitive rules by the EU courts so the law was allowed to stand.
Appeals have been lodges to try and get the fines reduced or even expunged. The level of the fines seems to me to be disproportionate to the offence but maybe they are being set at a punative level to discourage others.
€21000 / 8 years / 52 weeks = €50 TAX per week for €400 rental
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 13:55
I live on a residential and hate the way some tourist behave. I would love to not have them staying there at all and the complex was totally residents . But I brought there knowing full well that it went on and the fact is without this happening my apartment value would plummet on the open market as rightly or wrongly most can only buy with the income from rentals. We have had the most problems with the long lets who seem to think its great to wake the whole complex at 5am screaming and shouting at each other. One lot leaves and it seems the next lot are worse, dogs, cats and problems.
Also the local business in the area make around 60% of their income from ilegal rentals so the knock on effect is huge. Be careful what you wish for.
Sorry to hear that you got fined, were you aware of this 16 year old law in all the 8 years you were renting the properties?
yes, we heard of it but the sureal thing is that the law was not being applied at all. on our complex many people rented out ,and had done for years. there are cleaning companies all servicing the apartments. Us brits might find it odd to have a law like that and not actually enforce it. Clearly when it began in 1995 it was a knee jerk reaction to the recession in the 90's, pressure from the powerful hotel lobby demanding that they get more customers. Once the recesion was over the island benefited from the many apartment visitors to the point of boom times and so no one wanted to stop a thriving industry of great importance to the island economy. This latest crackdown is due to pressure from hotels in this latest recesion and the canarian government being skint.
I have been in business all my life and am quite used to setbacks and enforcements. As I have said the way forward is a campaign group to press for the end of this law. The canaries needs the apartment tourists,it is their bread and butter. People need to come together and begin the fight back. Those that have not been fined yet might be thinking they are ok but fines might be in the pipeline for years, the courts could not do all the cases in a short time. I can understand those not yet fined not wanting to get involved but we need a group up and running and people can join when they get fined. Plus the local business's need to get demonstrating and lobbying to kick out this law now, the damage to them will be starting slowly and building into next spring.
What needs to happen is that the law is changed. There should be no reason why individuals or groups can not let private apatments in the tourist zones. The island economy needs the visitors. Taxi companies ,restuarants and shops can not survive without thye vast number of tourists who use the private apartments.
Do your apartments have a Touristic licence with complaint forms, signs, fire checks etc in place?
If so, why have you been fined?
no , we are originally touristic but at this time have no licence. last year one other guy on our complex and me wanted to get fully legal when all this first started. everyone else could not be bothered to try or look into it. That said the problem of the residential complex's is still ridiculous. When they are in resort eg, el mirador, they are very valuble to the economy. It makes no sense that they can not be rented. You have to think for a moment what are the people actually doing wrong? Where is the harm to the canaries? Much has been written about dodging the law family and friends etc, at the end of the day there is no reason to fine anyone for this.
in fairness the law from 7/1995 stops anyone from registering a single unit with the tourist board, and because of this it is not possible to have the rest of those things.
But it is a Law nelson and there are complexes which are touristic and residencial in resort.
I think there's a good argument for legalising lettiings on residential complexes providing there is regulation, ie: registered businesses, they display correct signs and hold correct paperwork and abide by the tourist laws (safety regs, customer service, etc etc) but then there will always be residents who don't want holiday makers on a residential complex and they should also be considered.
The easy answer is for everyone who owns on a residential complex and wants to let, just sell up and buy on a complex where you can let.
canary boy
22-11-2011, 14:46
I have talked to a couple of people that have been fined and they are adamant they are not going down alone, they will shop all other apartments and committees that have been renting out all these years, they are going to try and get media coverage in the UK so it creates panic for those booking private renting in Tenerife , they are going to hand out leaflets at airports for people travelling to Tenerife and hopefully cause many cancellations and therefore creating big hardship for the owners(Mortgage)and staff on those complexes losing there lively hood, bars and cafes losing business and turning the area into a residential area where people only venture out once a week and spend very little, because lets be honest the only reason the people are there is for the all round sun. For all those people who haven't been fined and think they have got away with it, You cant expect your neighbor to get a fine and let you off scott free!:mad:
TE]
Thanks for the reply nelson. But I don't think any amount of protesting etc is going to help.
No touristic licence = they have you bang to rights. The law is an ass, but it's an ass you can't a. ignore b. complain about when it catches you with your pants down.
Think of the economy when the island benefits from the unpaid taxes and all these fines are paid. I guess you've made more than enough out of your rentals over 8 years though :)
I think there's a good argument for legalising lettiings on residential complexes providing there is regulation, ie: registered businesses, they display correct signs and hold correct paperwork and abide by the tourist laws (safety regs, customer service, etc etc) but then there will always be residents who don't want holiday makers on a residential complex and they should also be considered.
The easy answer is for everyone who owns on a residential complex and wants to let, just sell up and buy on a complex where you can let.
Are you going soft Loaded??:crylaughing::crylaughing:
Added after 2 minutes:
Thanks for the reply nelson. But I don't think any amount of protesting etc is going to help.
No touristic licence = they have you bang to rights. The law is an ass, but it's an ass you can't a. ignore b. complain about when it catches you with your pants down.
Think of the economy when the island benefits from the unpaid taxes and all these fines are paid. I guess you've made more than enough out of your rentals over 8 years though :)
Imo, a short term fix for the financial situation the Canarian government find themselves in. Long term, I think it has to have a detrimental effect on the island's economy. The island wont benefit directly from unpaid taxes, this goes to the central government. The fines are, as I said, a quick fix, driven mainly by the hotel industry.
canary boy
22-11-2011, 14:53
[I think its a good idea for people that have been fined to use the same solicitor the link below is the name of a solicitor that is handle a lot of these cases, which enables him to show the impact of such fines on the economy to the government, I hope its ok to put his link on here
www.escobedo.net
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 14:54
I have talked to a couple of people that have been fined and they are adamant they are not going down alone, they will shop all other apartments and committees that have been renting out all these years, they are going to try and get media coverage in the UK so it creates panic for those booking private renting in Tenerife , they are going to hand out leaflets at airports for people travelling to Tenerife and hopefully cause many cancellations and therefore creating big hardship for the owners(Mortgage)and staff on those complexes losing there lively hood, bars and cafes losing business and turning the area into a residential area where people only venture out once a week and spend very little, because lets be honest the only reason the people are there is for the all round sun. For all those people who haven't been fined and think they have got away with it, You cant expect your neighbor to get a fine and let you off scott free!:mad:
TE]
Thats an awful lot of work for just a "couple of people" ???
I have talked to a couple of people that have been fined and they are adamant they are not going down alone, they will shop all other apartments and committees that have been renting out all these years, they are going to try and get media coverage in the UK so it creates panic for those booking private renting in Tenerife , they are going to hand out leaflets at airports for people travelling to Tenerife and hopefully cause many cancellations and therefore creating big hardship for the owners(Mortgage)and staff on those complexes losing there lively hood, bars and cafes losing business and turning the area into a residential area where people only venture out once a week and spend very little, because lets be honest the only reason the people are there is for the all round sun. For all those people who haven't been fined and think they have got away with it, You cant expect your neighbor to get a fine and let you off scott free!:mad:
TE]
Surely seeking media coverage is just like convicting themselves though? "Helloooo I've been illegally letting my apartment for X years and now they've caught up with me I don't like it"
And as for those booking "private renting" in Tenerife. No problem so long as it's LEGAL private renting!!! :)
canary boy
22-11-2011, 15:00
Surely seeking media coverage is just like convicting themselves though? "Helloooo I've been illegally letting my apartment for X years and now they've caught up with me I don't like it"
And as for those booking "private renting" in Tenerife. No problem so long as it's LEGAL private renting!!! :)
Most of the people on this forum don't know whats touristic and whats residential best just to steer away from all of them just like Thomas cook there not going bust just cash problems but the public will think twice from booking with them!
I have talked to a couple of people that have been fined and they are adamant they are not going down alone, they will shop all other apartments and committees that have been renting out all these years, ]
This will be of a great benefit to all the legally registered complexes.
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 15:03
if its to raise taxes there are far easier ways. Set 50 people on for a week and get quotes from trades people and see how many offer to cut the bill without a recipt
canary boy
22-11-2011, 15:04
Thanks for the reply nelson. But I don't think any amount of protesting etc is going to help.
No touristic licence = they have you bang to rights. The law is an ass, but it's an ass you can't a. ignore b. complain about when it catches you with your pants down.
Think of the economy when the island benefits from the unpaid taxes and all these fines are paid. I guess you've made more than enough out of your rentals over 8 years though :)
When these taxes are paid? that wont be any time soon as this fine if imposed and not paid it is attached to the property, its not like a bank where they can repossess, the owner can carry on renting but be a lot more vigilant this time, The fine does accumulate interest but Im sure the Goverment wont be getting there cash any time soon, by which time the whole Spanish economy will be in turmoil
Imo, a short term fix for the financial situation the Canarian government find themselves in. Long term, I think it has to have a detrimental effect on the island's economy.
But next year (2012) when they reform the Law and start to give out permissions to build 2,3 & 4 star Touristic accommadation which will include ALL the services a Touristic complex should have in the first place.
Creating work and jobs etc the fall in price of what has been a hiking up and a false selling pitch for many a residential dwelling in resort will become more in line of what they are actually worth.
Will create interest in buying again after maybe a little tiny slum in purchasing residential apartments has taken effect - Available in resort properties for a wider scope of people due to price drop.
Simular to some properties that have been knocked down due to Costas and what was second line is now more lucrative first line.
The Canary Islands will find a balance i very much doubt it that come to the point that there will be no tourist here because the illegal residential apartment sector has reduced some what.
If people want to come to Tenerife they will find a bed.
When these taxes are paid? that wont be any time soon as this fine if imposed and not paid it is attached to the property, its not like a bank where they can repossess, the owner can carry on renting but be a lot more vigilant this time, The fine does accumulate interest but Im sure the Goverment wont be getting there cash any time soon, by which time the whole Spanish economy will be in turmoil
This is a fine for illegal exploitation not a tax. It is not like a bank however they can embargo the property, remove funds from a Spanish bank account, or if all else fails sell the property at auction to recover their loss - be careful.
Are you going soft Loaded? dont think he is ive have the same opinion as long as everything is in place paperwork,lifegaurd,reception ie a level paying field ive no objection however if you bought in a residential complex would you want it turned a touristic one even if that was possable? as it stand dont think it could happen. David
jogger321
22-11-2011, 15:16
we have just found out that we have been fined in last weeks bolitin 21,000 euros for the illegal letting. we have two aparetments in los cristianos, have owned them for 8 years.
What needs to happen is that the law is changed. There should be no reason why individuals or groups can not let private apatments in the tourist zones. The island economy needs the visitors. Taxi companies ,restuarants and shops can not survive without thye vast number of tourists who use the private apartments.
People like us who have been fined need to form a group to fight the law as it stands, clearly it is anti competitive. Also other interest groups should join eg, local taxi associations , restuarants etc. pressure needs to be demonstrated that the law is plain wrong and needs to go.
The damage for the island economy is already starting as people come off the internet sites. Bookings may exist for this winter but without internet advertising the apartments will dry up from spring next year onwards. At that point if the canarian government realised the enormity of the situation and relented , it would take several months to get the people to start re booking into apartments if the adverts went back on line at that point.
There is enormous bad press to come as this issue explodes in the press/tv internationally as people read of illegal tourism in the canaries.
To update people we have been fined for letting dated september 2010 and internet advertising dated october 2010, so coming of the web today or last week may not have helped ?
One other person on our complex was fined with us ,18,000 euros, three others on the same internet site have not been.
It helps if you dont name your complex directly in your advert or give apartment numbers.
That said I am not encouraging people to go underground, the answer is a campaign group of Brits and locals to get the law changed.
Nelson i'm going to make an assumption here and correct me if i'm wrong. You own two apartments and have been renting them out for a few years. In order to do that you must be a pretty business orientated person. Not the sort of idiot who buys an apartment or timeshare on a whim or because of the offer of a free gift
What part of the law did you misunderstand in relation to the legality of your lettings over the last eight years?
If you did understand it were you simply assuming that since it was a law that had previously been unenforced it was ok to let your apartments to tourists?
When these taxes are paid? that wont be any time soon as this fine if imposed and not paid it is attached to the property, its not like a bank where they can repossess, the owner can carry on renting but be a lot more vigilant this time, The fine does accumulate interest but Im sure the Goverment wont be getting there cash any time soon, by which time the whole Spanish economy will be in turmoil
Or there is a time period to pay said fine/tax. After which you appear in court. An attachment of earnings sought/appearence in prison is allocated?
When these taxes are paid? that wont be any time soon as this fine if imposed and not paid it is attached to the property, its not like a bank where they can repossess, the owner can carry on renting but be a lot more vigilant this time, The fine does accumulate interest but Im sure the Goverment wont be getting there cash any time soon, by which time the whole Spanish economy will be in turmoil
Imagine a load of residential properties coming on the market from Government repossessions for €18000 and €21000 1 & 2 Bed LUXURY, CLEAN, STATE OF THE ART APARTMENTS
Ill have 3 already
delderek
22-11-2011, 15:22
yes, we heard of it but the sureal thing is that the law was not being applied at all. on our complex many people rented out ,and had done for years. there are cleaning companies all servicing the apartments. Us brits might find it odd to have a law like that and not actually enforce it. Clearly when it began in 1995 it was a knee jerk reaction to the recession in the 90's, pressure from the powerful hotel lobby demanding that they get more customers. Once the recesion was over the island benefited from the many apartment visitors to the point of boom times and so no one wanted to stop a thriving industry of great importance to the island economy. This latest crackdown is due to pressure from hotels in this latest recesion and the canarian government being skint.
I have been in business all my life and am quite used to setbacks and enforcements. As I have said the way forward is a campaign group to press for the end of this law. The canaries needs the apartment tourists,it is their bread and butter. People need to come together and begin the fight back. Those that have not been fined yet might be thinking they are ok but fines might be in the pipeline for years, the courts could not do all the cases in a short time. I can understand those not yet fined not wanting to get involved but we need a group up and running and people can join when they get fined. Plus the local business's need to get demonstrating and lobbying to kick out this law now, the damage to them will be starting slowly and building into next spring.
It had nothing to do with a recession. It was to stop the overbuilding of cheap tourist accomodation (i.e Benidorm). A building moratorium was issued to allow building of Five star hotels only, and Residential apartments. This moratorium is still in place and renewed yearly. If you had seen some of the awful structures that were started before this moratorium you would understand the reasons. In my opinion in that respect the moratorium has worked, in that many of the structures were reworked as residential complexes with far better quality than the original plans. In my opinion if and when the moratorium has ceased, then residential complexes could then be given the right to change status to touristic, but it just cannot happen till that time.
Surely the real problem is that the Government imposed the regulations because they want to have full control over the tourist/letting market. There is little they can do about "foreigners" moving here to live in their residential apartments, but everything they can do about stopping the letting to the tourist market of them, over which they have control.
9+ put his finger on it a couple of days ago - there is a full stop on the building of touristic accomodation here, and has been for some years. All they have let happen in recent years is 4/5 star hotels over which they have control of the quality of the accomodation.
IF (and a big IF) the tourist market is affected it will be a slow process in any event, and once the signs are there it is possible the Tourist board might consider re-licensing residential complexes for the tourist market, provided all owners agree and invest the necessary funds in fire alarms, receptions, upgrade the accomodation to their standard and the rest, or, more likely new accomodation for the tourist market will be allowed to be built.
I think it should be remembered that the government has been trying to change the island's image from lager drinking binges to sophisticated holidays in the sun for as many years as this law has been in existance. Sadly, I don't think any sympathy will be forthcoming from the tourist board toward those currently, and about to be caught up in the situation.
The courts will have no sympathy either - the law has been tested in Europe already and allowed to stay and court decisions are normally set on precident.
With the greatest of respect to all caught up in this - especially if you have bought your apartment in the past 16 years, you either knew, or should have known about the law and what we see today is the result.
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 15:24
But next year (2012) when they reform the Law and start to give out permissions to build 2,3 & 4 star Touristic accommadation which will include ALL the services a Touristic complex should have in the first place.
.
which will be great if they are building them where people ''want'' to stay. No use in the back of beyond. Maybe they could buy Dinastia and Mirador, knock them down and rebuild them as Touristic :wink: Would not put that stupidity beyond them.
Ill have 3 already
Put me down too
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 15:25
Imagine a load of residential properties coming on the market from Government repossessions for €18000 and €21000 1 & 2 Bed LUXURY, CLEAN, STATE OF THE ART APARTMENTS
Ill have 3 already
Seriously it has been suggested to me that this is the real motive in the present situation, but Spanish purchasers only !!!!
boredinscotland
22-11-2011, 15:31
This will be short term fix to get money in now,,long term will harm tourist industry in Tenerife. El Mirador and Dinastia for example, people will go there and nowhere else and this I know from experience, some people will not give older complexes a chance. Only way this will work in the long term is somehow legalise the letting of Residential Complexes.
jogger321
22-11-2011, 15:43
This will be short term fix to get money in now,,long term will harm tourist industry in Tenerife. El Mirador and Dinastia for example, people will go there and nowhere else and this I know from experience, some people will not give older complexes a chance. Only way this will work in the long term is somehow legalise the letting of Residential Complexes.
Have you not noticed there is a whole coast line running all the way to Los Gigantes with lots of room to build? The area with the 5 star hotels in the del duque did not exist a few years ago. I would imagine if a programme of building luxury licenced touristic complexes was launched which provided construction jobs this would prove very popular with those currently seeking employment.
delderek
22-11-2011, 15:48
Have you not noticed there is a whole coast line running all the way to Los Gigantes with lots of room to build? The area with the 5 star hotels in the del duque did not exist a few years ago. I would imagine if a programme of building luxury licenced touristic complexes was launched which provided construction jobs this would prove very popular with those currently seeking employment.
Moratorium allows for five star "Hotels" only.
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 15:50
This will be short term fix to get money in now,,long term will harm tourist industry in Tenerife. El Mirador and Dinastia for example, people will go there and nowhere else and this I know from experience, some people will not give older complexes a chance. Only way this will work in the long term is somehow legalise the letting of Residential Complexes.
Not possible on several counts
1. They are not issuing touristic licences for the foreseaable future.
2. Most recent Residential Developments will have statutes that require a 100% majority of owners to agree to a change.
3. The cost of retro fitting touristic standards ie fire alarms. 24 hour reception. Lifeguards. etc would be prohibative.
which will be great if they are building them where people ''want'' to stay. No use in the back of beyond. Maybe they could buy Dinastia and Mirador, knock them down and rebuild them as Touristic :wink: Would not put that stupidity beyond them.
There are 2 massive plots of land that are situated either side of the road leading out of Los Cristianos toward the dual carriageway that have already had the streets and infrastructures completed some years ago
The Arona townhall announced yesterday the 21/11/2011 that the new Plan General de Arona which is to sort out all of the planning problems that have occurred over the years it will come into force within 15 days and then they will be able to authorise those 2 plots of land and i'm sure it has the ability to house all the tourists that are currently using illegal accoumadation in the Los Cristianos area and areas surounding.
These plots will house new business, create jobs, safely house tourists and provide them with all of the services a Modern tourist area would supply
This Plan General de Arona was officially past back in March of this year by COTMAC
It will also help to legalise Parque de La Reina as well.
Put me down too
Not for short lets though
Seriously it has been suggested to me that this is the real motive in the present situation, but Spanish purchasers only !!!!
Not sure about Spanish Only
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 16:04
There ares 2 massive plots of land that are situated either side of the road leading out of Los Cristianos toward the dual carriageway that have already had the streets and infrastructures completed some years ago
The Arona townhall announced yesterday the 21/11/2011 that the new Plan General de Arona which is to sort out all of the planning problems that have occurred over the years it will come into force within 15 days and then they will be able to authorise those 2 plots of land and i'm sure it has the ability to house all the tourists that are currently using illegal accoumadation in the Los Cristianos area and areas surounding
so happy holidays for next summer:wink: Could of been a decent idea to get these places built, up and running before scaring off all the tourist in the middle of a depression and may just find they prefer to holiday elsewhere.
so happy holidays for next summer:wink: Could of been a decent idea to get these places built, up and running before scaring off all the tourist in the middle of a depression and may just find they prefer to holiday elsewhere.
Scaring off tourists? Really?? Or scaring off owners acting illegally? I'm confused how you timewarped to that conclusion!
Well how they roughnecked the first apartments blocks back in the late 60's to Mid 80's they'll have to cracked no problem.
delderek
22-11-2011, 16:09
There are 2 massive plots of land that are situated either side of the road leading out of Los Cristianos toward the dual carriageway that have already had the streets and infrastructures completed some years ago
The Arona townhall announced yesterday the 21/11/2011 that the new Plan General de Arona which is to sort out all of the planning problems that have occurred over the years it will come into force within 15 days and then they will be able to authorise those 2 plots of land and i'm sure it has the ability to house all the tourists that are currently using illegal accoumadation in the Los Cristianos area and areas surounding.
These plots will house new business, create jobs, safely house tourists and provide them with all of the services a Modern tourist area would supply
This Plan General de Arona was officially past back in March of this year by COTMAC
It will also help to legalise Parque de La Reina as well.
Not for short lets though
Not sure about Spanish Only
And to kill most of them if they dare try to cross the road:wink2:
Well how they roughnecked the first apartments blocks back in the late 60's to Mid 80's they'll have to cracked no problem.
English please............................................ ....................dear!
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 16:14
Scaring off tourists? Really?? Or scaring off owners acting illegally? I'm confused how you timewarped to that conclusion!
so lets say they totally stopped rents on Dinastia and Mirador tomorrow, which is what some wish for. There would be 1000's of holidays ruined over the next couple of months. Do you think these people would rush back? Or maybe you have space to put them up in fully legal apartments?
In response to the question: Am I going soft? - No. I don't mind competition, I just don't like unfair competition.
so lets say they totally stopped rents on Dinastia and Mirador tomorrow, which is what some wish for. There would be 1000's of holidays ruined over the next couple of months. Do you think these people would rush back? Or maybe you have space to put them up in fully legal apartments?
Maybe, just maybe. They would look for somewhere legal to stay don't you think?
I'd love to know where these owners would stand should their paying guests die in a fire in their apartment??? God for bid it should happen, but surely the insurance would call null and void as the apartment was being illegally rented. Manslaughter case following??
English please............................................ ....................dear!
Man i've been up for 10 hours doing paperwork. Must check paperworks to see if they are comprehensible
In response to the question: Am I going soft? - No. I don't mind competition, I just don't like unfair competition.
Totally agree - the number of times we have seen our regular clients staying in illegal apartments that have been mentioned on here today and stating it was £75.00 - £100.00 cheaper! No overheads and of course no claim forms
Maybe, just maybe. They would look for somewhere legal to stay don't you think?
I'd love to know where these owners would stand should their paying guests die in a fire in their apartment??? God for bid it should happen, but surely the insurance would call null and void as the apartment was being illegally rented. Manslaughter case following??
There is plenty of leagally registered apartments in the Los Cristianos area that have suffered since the building of Dinastia & El Mirador, there was allways pleanty of room for them before this new chapter of owners arrived offering their apartment for cheap "illegal" rentals!
if its not broke do not fix it. there is no reason to consider any new building when you have the existing complex's and shoips and restuarants doing the business. Business's are struggling as it is in los cristianos so with less tourists it will get worse. Maybe they canary government have pandered to the hotels too long with the letting laws. we normally could let ours many times over in the winter, there is a shortage of apartments. what you have is the mess you get when you try to control markets. hotels struggling to be full yet too many tourists who want apartments not finding them.
The letting laws are a throw back to Franco's spain, protection for government cronnies which makes for a stagnant economy. Only in spain could such blatent protectionism have ended up as law. only in spain could the hotels expect to get such laws. Spain is showing us its dark ugly side here. The ghost of franco is showing through the mentality here.
delderek
22-11-2011, 16:41
if its not broke do not fix it. there is no reason to consider any new building when you have the existing complex's and shoips and restuarants doing the business. Business's are struggling as it is in los cristianos so with less tourists it will get worse. Maybe they canary government have pandered to the hotels too long with the letting laws. we normally could let ours many times over in the winter, there is a shortage of apartments. what you have is the mess you get when you try to control markets. hotels struggling to be full yet too many tourists who want apartments not finding them.
The letting laws are a throw back to Franco's spain, protection for government cronnies which makes for a stagnant economy. Only in spain could such blatent protectionism have ended up as law. only in spain could the hotels expect to get such laws. Spain is showing us its dark ugly side here. The ghost of franco is showing through the mentality here.
Take it you didn't read the real reason it was started. http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?23-The-Tenerife-illegal-lettings-thread&p=117486&viewfull=1#post117486
It doesn't matter whether this law is a total and complete ass or not.
Anyone who has bought a property since it was passed and doesn't know it about should be asking themselves why; if they did know about it and chose to ignore it, they've got a problem of their own making to sort.
The law was passed in 1995 and the fact that they haven't enforced it until now is no defence for breaking it.
If you choose to buy a property in a foreign country, you should be making damned sure that there are no hidden problems like this law which might come out of the woodwork BEFORE you part with your hard earned cash.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defence in any court.
Red Devil
22-11-2011, 16:47
Everyone is talking about LC and PDLA - what about the whole of the Golf del Sur area, surely they are all residential?
An awful lot of golfing enthusiasts will be mightily disappointed.
If you have a look at Marcus Managements website by the way he seems to have got around the situation nicely by offering "longer" holiday lets but you cant see availability, you have to phone to enquire.
He doesnt seem too concerned.
I'm amazed at the number of deluded people on here who seem to think the tourist economy will still exist if this law is enforced fully - dont forget the estimate was 650,000 illegal beds!!
You wont fit all those families in the touristic ones so it will be bye bye Tenerife.
Plenty of restaurants, bars, local shops, tourist attractions will all close. Ah well, you know best.
What has saddened me has been the general tone of (mostly) residents on here, not to mention the vitriol, not very friendly to the tourist is it. Obviously they aren't your particular bread and butter, well you're the lucky ones. Plenty of locals rely on them 100% to exist.
I have read that categorically it has nothing to do with clawing tax back so please can we stop using that argument now - it just isnt valid.
This will be short term fix to get money in now,,long term will harm tourist industry in Tenerife. El Mirador and Dinastia for example, people will go there and nowhere else and this I know from experience, some people will not give older complexes a chance. Only way this will work in the long term is somehow legalise the letting of Residential Complexes.
They may just have to give the older complexes a chance in the future if the holiday letting in elmirador ect comes to a stop but just because the complexes are older doenst mean there is not very nice well equipped apartments in them. I allready getting people desprertly searching for accommodation for peak times and if they cant get decent accommodation they may go elsewhere not everyone wants to stay in a allinclusive 5 * hotel. David
Somebody mentioned that people were now booking 2 years in advance because they thought apartments would become less and less available
I think Tenerife will sink into the Ocean once everyone sells their apartment in El Mirador and Dinistia
How could the island work after that happens???????????????????
quite correct, many residents delighting in the law being enforced are ignorant of the effect on their lifes as and when tourism slows down. They might not enjoy the place as much when it begins to fall apart around them. Look at the faded british resorts once tourism declines. The tail is wagging the dog here 650,000 so called illegal beds! how can the island manage without that income? At the end of the day I am confident that the law will go, it may take time and people are going to need to get together to campaign.
I'm amazed at the number of deluded people on here who seem to think the tourist economy will still exist if this law is enforced fully - dont forget the estimate was 650,000 illegal beds!!
You wont fit all those families in the touristic ones so it will be bye bye Tenerife.
Plenty of restaurants, bars, local shops, tourist attractions will all close. Ah well, you know best.
This statement has stunned me! You REALLY believe that those 650,000 beds are full every week? And I'm supposed to be deluded?
I wonder how many "legal" beds are empty due to the cut throat pricing of the illegal beds? And I will ask my earlier question again, death in a fire in an illegal apartment, insurance valid or manslaughter case? ???
It doesn't matter whether this law is a total and complete ass or not.
Anyone who has bought a property since it was passed and doesn't know it about should be asking themselves why; if they did know about it and chose to ignore it, they've got a problem of their own making to sort.
The law was passed in 1995 and the fact that they haven't enforced it until now is no defence for breaking it.
If you choose to buy a property in a foreign country, you should be making damned sure that there are no hidden problems like this law which might come out of the woodwork BEFORE you part with your hard earned cash.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defence in any court.
The answer to why people dont know is simple estate agents didnt tell them when buying despite telling everyone i had to holiday let only one told me but thats what you would expect from them lawyers didnt tell them and despite doing a lot off reasearch before buying i didnt come accross it . However i was lucky enough at the end to come accross one agent who put me on the right track but as you say ignorance of the law is no defence but it could so easily me who bought in Dinastia so how many people here on the forum new about the law before buying? David
Everyone is talking about LC and PDLA - what about the whole of the Golf del Sur area, surely they are all residential?
An awful lot of golfing enthusiasts will be mightily disappointed.
If you have a look at Marcus Managements website by the way he seems to have got around the situation nicely by offering "longer" holiday lets but you cant see availability, you have to phone to enquire.
He doesnt seem too concerned.
I'm amazed at the number of deluded people on here who seem to think the tourist economy will still exist if this law is enforced fully - dont forget the estimate was 650,000 illegal beds!!
You wont fit all those families in the touristic ones so it will be bye bye Tenerife.
Plenty of restaurants, bars, local shops, tourist attractions will all close. Ah well, you know best.
What has saddened me has been the general tone of (mostly) residents on here, not to mention the vitriol, not very friendly to the tourist is it. Obviously they aren't your particular bread and butter, well you're the lucky ones. Plenty of locals rely on them 100% to exist.
I have read that categorically it has nothing to do with clawing tax back so please can we stop using that argument now - it just isnt valid.
For Golf Del Sur
From another forum where I asked the question
San Miguel website gives the following as touristic:
Aguamarina
Golf Plaza
Green Park
Sand Club
Las Adelfas
Parque Albatros
San Blas Reserva Ambiental
delderek
22-11-2011, 17:21
quite correct, many residents delighting in the law being enforced are ignorant of the effect on their lifes as and when tourism slows down. They might not enjoy the place as much when it begins to fall apart around them. Look at the faded british resorts once tourism declines. The tail is wagging the dog here 650,000 so called illegal beds! how can the island manage without that income? At the end of the day I am confident that the law will go, it may take time and people are going to need to get together to campaign.
That figure has been challenged, but in any case that is for the whole of the Canary Islands, not just Tenerife
I'd say the average "illegal" 1 bed is sold at around 200-250 pounds per week for 2 people. If you go in Oasis Mango, Castle Harbour, the HG side of Cristian Sur and Tenerife Sur you will not get a week for less than 50€ per night - 50 x 7 = 350 euros = 315 pounds roughly..... thats the minumum rate at these places and it's because they have a lot more overheads than Mrs Bloggs who owns on El Mirador and has Mr & Mrs Oddjob looking after everything from nearby.
Red Devil
22-11-2011, 17:38
This statement has stunned me! You REALLY believe that those 650,000 beds are full every week? And I'm supposed to be deluded?
I wonder how many "legal" beds are empty due to the cut throat pricing of the illegal beds? And I will ask my earlier question again, death in a fire in an illegal apartment, insurance valid or manslaughter case? ???
If any legal beds are empty it is due to their general shoddiness - that is why there is a demand for pleasant ones, people are fed up of the accommodation that was being offered in some
not all, obviously, legal beds.
(I am sure Loaded, Oasis, for example will point out plenty of genuinely nice ones on their books)
I cant see any reason now why some largely absent owners will raise their standards, they wont have an incentive.
I have no more idea than you whether they are full every week, but I dont believe there are enough legal ones to fill the demand - where would you stay self catering if you wanted to stay in the Costa Adeje/La Caleta area for example, certainly not enough legal beds there
As for the insurance, again I can only repeat what I have said in the past, public liability cover is exactly that - no-one has yet been able to give one example of any insurance claim failing because of so called illegal letting.
I'd say the average "illegal" 1 bed is sold at around 200-250 pounds per week for 2 people. If you go in Oasis Mango, Castle Harbour, the HG side of Cristian Sur and Tenerife Sur you will not get a week for less than 50€ per night - 50 x 7 = 350 euros = 315 pounds roughly..... thats the minumum rate at these places and it's because they have a lot more overheads than Mrs Bloggs who owns on El Mirador and has Mr & Mrs Oddjob looking after everything from nearby.
We have to pay receptionists,lifegaurd ,a team off cleaners maintanence people, gardeners( many more than in the residential complexes) i had to pay for fire protection its connected to reception in case off a fire in my apartment so cost are higher so not a level playing feild. David ps you can get a legal one bed for £250 on Cristian Sur from the other side!
at the end of the day it only takes a small dip in numbers to make a big problem. certainly pubs, restuarants are on the edge now as things are. many owners will go underground , winter trade will be stronger. the problem is next spring, without the internet visitor numbers will fall dramatically. you do not need much of a dip to cause mayhem. the airport taxi companies are going to be hit badly, apartment customers after all are the main taxi clients there and back. everything in the tourist economy will suffer badly, shops,bars,resturants,airport cafes,taxis,waterparks,supermarkets,even down to the trader on los cristo market.
As I have already said the apartment bookings can not be reversed easily. Its all about market forces. the canary government have no idea with their protectionist mentality what a mess they are bringing down on the islands. Unemployment here is going to rocket.
They will think again when they get into the mire with this, but a lot of ordinary canarians are going to suffer before that. think about the bin men, they will be council cutbacks, once apartments are left empty the basura is going to be less on the round. Lay offs will follow.
There is not a tourist business on the island that is not going to suffer. the whole thing is complete economic madness and the law is making a perfectly ordinary thing so called illegal.
If any legal beds are empty it is due to their general shoddiness - that is why there is a demand for pleasant ones, people are fed up of the accommodation that was being offered in some
not all, obviously, legal beds.
(I am sure Loaded, Oasis, for example will point out plenty of genuinely nice ones on their books)
I cant see any reason now why some largely absent owners will raise their standards, they wont have an incentive.
I have no more idea than you whether they are full every week, but I dont believe there are enough legal ones to fill the demand - where would you stay self catering if you wanted to stay in the Costa Adeje/La Caleta area for example, certainly not enough legal beds there
As for the insurance, again I can only repeat what I have said in the past, public liability cover is exactly that - no-one has yet been able to give one example of any insurance claim failing because of so called illegal letting. So we'll forget the 650,000 figure. Pleasant they may well be, and cheaper too. Illegal they definately are. And Public liability insurance, in a private residential apartment??? That does confuse me?
There is not a tourist business on the island that is not going to suffer. the whole thing is complete economic madness and the law is making a perfectly ordinary thing so called illegal.
Don't think Loaded and the like will suffer!
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 17:50
This statement has stunned me! You REALLY believe that those 650,000 beds are full every week? And I'm supposed to be deluded?
I wonder how many "legal" beds are empty due to the cut throat pricing of the illegal beds? And I will ask my earlier question again, death in a fire in an illegal apartment, insurance valid or manslaughter case? ???
over the busy periods when people want to holiday or have to, I'd say almost all are full. Any apartment legal or that is not booked deserves not to be for a reason.
I keep reading how people will pay extra for better quality and yet the same people say they are being under cut. Maybe the quality is not as high as the price.
jogger321
22-11-2011, 17:50
Originally Posted by nelson View Post
we have just found out that we have been fined in last weeks bolitin 21,000 euros for the illegal letting. we have two aparetments in los cristianos, have owned them for 8 years.
What needs to happen is that the law is changed. There should be no reason why individuals or groups can not let private apatments in the tourist zones. The island economy needs the visitors. Taxi companies ,restuarants and shops can not survive without thye vast number of tourists who use the private apartments.
People like us who have been fined need to form a group to fight the law as it stands, clearly it is anti competitive. Also other interest groups should join eg, local taxi associations , restuarants etc. pressure needs to be demonstrated that the law is plain wrong and needs to go.
The damage for the island economy is already starting as people come off the internet sites. Bookings may exist for this winter but without internet advertising the apartments will dry up from spring next year onwards. At that point if the canarian government realised the enormity of the situation and relented , it would take several months to get the people to start re booking into apartments if the adverts went back on line at that point.
There is enormous bad press to come as this issue explodes in the press/tv internationally as people read of illegal tourism in the canaries.
To update people we have been fined for letting dated september 2010 and internet advertising dated october 2010, so coming of the web today or last week may not have helped ?
One other person on our complex was fined with us ,18,000 euros, three others on the same internet site have not been.
It helps if you dont name your complex directly in your advert or give apartment numbers.
That said I am not encouraging people to go underground, the answer is a campaign group of Brits and locals to get the law changed.
Nelson i'm going to make an assumption here and correct me if i'm wrong. You own two apartments and have been renting them out for a few years. In order to do that you must be a pretty business orientated person. Not the sort of idiot who buys an apartment or timeshare on a whim or because of the offer of a free gift
What part of the law did you misunderstand in relation to the legality of your lettings over the last eight years?
If you did understand it were you simply assuming that since it was a law that had previously been unenforced it was ok to let your apartments to tourists?
Hello again Nelson,
Obviously seeings as its been a busy day here on this forum, you overlooked my reply to your post. I was wondering if you had, had a chance to consider my questions?
over the busy periods when people want to holiday or have to, I'd say almost all are full. Any apartment legal or that is not booked deserves not to be for a reason.
I keep reading how people will pay extra for better quality and yet the same people say they are being under cut. Maybe the quality is not as high as the price. OR just maybe, LEGAL apartments are more expensive to remain LEGAL? Maybe when the illegal lets have to pay for receptionists, Life Guards, Fire safety systems to make them legal their prices will go up accordingly. Then and only then can you really compare ;)
Did you have the same opinion about the island before you received the fine and were pocketing the money?
What is your direction now nelson are you thinking of selling and moving off the island, investing into another touristic complex property or carry on regardless?
I wonder if some even a hand full of tourists would use the hotels or legal accommation that are left vacant due to people going to other cheaper illegal places?
I know we have public liability insurance i would think that residential complexes will have it to. David
golf birdie
22-11-2011, 18:01
you asked how many were full, I said most when people have to or want to holiday. That is many, many 1000's bringing 1000 uppon 1000's of euros to spend. Then again maybe the businesses here are that well off they do wwithout untill the new super legal hotels spring up everywhere.
I know we have public liability insurance i would think that residential complexes will have it to. David
Definately, for touristic complexes for tourists. And for residential complex for residents. But for residential apartments for illegal tourists? ???
yes we knew of the letting law from our lawyer at the end of the purchase. like everyone else we could see that it was not enforced , presumabley because it was just daft to cut the money tree down. In the first place it was started to protect the hotels from the recesion of the 90's, it seemed to us that clearly a misguided protectionist law had been quietly abandoned.
I am not personally worried that this crazy law will l;ast long. all great injustices come to an end. this attack on the letting is absoluite madness and will not continue indefinitley. To say it is the law is true but you do see bad laws around the world which have to be challenged.
There are no sound reasons to burden small one apartment renters with silly rules just to help hotels. This type of thing would not happen anywhere else in europe. the only places around the world where chummy hotels sould demand such laws would be in dictatorships or false democracies like zimbawe.
The private renters are doing nothing bvut good on the island, we will all see the end of this mess when the tourist numbers drop and the problem bites.
delderek
22-11-2011, 18:08
Much of this thread hangs around Los Cris and specifically Dinastia and El Mirador, yes both nice new modern complexes (although in my opinion El Mirador are really small, 40% less space than the legal complex above them). But don't forget the unsuspecting tourist that is put in one of the really old and not very nice illegal letting complexes nearer the old part of the town. If they have complaints and many do, there is absoloutely nothing they can do, no one to help them or put things right. This is the reasoning behind the Sole agent law. So you cannot base all arguments on the new residential complexes.
yes we knew of the letting law from our lawyer at the end of the purchase. like everyone else we could see that it was not enforced , presumabley because it was just daft to cut the money tree down. In the first place it was started to protect the hotels from the recesion of the 90's, it seemed to us that clearly a misguided protectionist law had been quietly abandoned.
I am not personally worried that this crazy law will l;ast long. all great injustices come to an end. this attack on the letting is absoluite madness and will not continue indefinitley. To say it is the law is true but you do see bad laws around the world which have to be challenged.
There are no sound reasons to burden small one apartment renters with silly rules just to help hotels. This type of thing would not happen anywhere else in europe. the only places around the world where chummy hotels sould demand such laws would be in dictatorships or false democracies like zimbawe.
The private renters are doing nothing bvut good on the island, we will all see the end of this mess when the tourist numbers drop and the problem bites.
Eh, I lived for a while in an apartment block in Westminister ... holiday letting was strictly illegal and strongly enforced by the Council.
It doesn't matter whether this law is a total and complete ass or not.
Anyone who has bought a property since it was passed and doesn't know it about should be asking themselves why; if they did know about it and chose to ignore it, they've got a problem of their own making to sort.
The law was passed in 1995 and the fact that they haven't enforced it until now is no defence for breaking it.
If you choose to buy a property in a foreign country, you should be making damned sure that there are no hidden problems like this law which might come out of the woodwork BEFORE you part with your hard earned cash.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defence in any court.
yes we knew of the letting law from our lawyer at the end of the purchase. like everyone else we could see that it was not enforced , presumabley because it was just daft to cut the money tree down. In the first place it was started to protect the hotels from the recesion of the 90's, it seemed to us that clearly a misguided protectionist law had been quietly abandoned.
I am not personally worried that this crazy law will l;ast long. all great injustices come to an end. this attack on the letting is absoluite madness and will not continue indefinitley. To say it is the law is true but you do see bad laws around the world which have to be challenged.
There are no sound reasons to burden small one apartment renters with silly rules just to help hotels. This type of thing would not happen anywhere else in europe. the only places around the world where chummy hotels sould demand such laws would be in dictatorships or false democracies like zimbawe.
The private renters are doing nothing bvut good on the island, we will all see the end of this mess when the tourist numbers drop and the problem bites.
If you choose to take the risk and ignore the law of the country you purchase in, you have got a problem if they then start to enforce it.
Your property is in Tenerife and is governed by Canarian law. Whether that law is a complete ass is completely irrelevant - IT IS CANARIAN LAW and you have to accept it.
I'm sure that at some point in the future they might fine tune it but at the moment it has to be applied as the Canarian government have decreed it, whether everybody agrees with it or not.
In any country, you can't pick and choose which laws you want to accept from their set of laws. .
at the moment I think campaign to end the law. I would hate to see it all calm down as before and then the gov turn a blind eye to the lettings when it suited them. I hope the law can in the months /years ahead go from this point now. If that happens I would keep the apartments and look forward to long stays myself when retired. If the law were to stay and the canaries remained ready to fine at any time in the future I might sell up.
Hopefully there will be enough of us fined to get together to campaign and sadly with the effects to come on the economy next spring there will be enough locals to join the campaign. Just imagine the business owners up near el mirador, what are they expecting next spring with all the ads pulled from owners direct ?
In this world money talks and we all have to live and find our daily bread. Communism collasped because it went skint, this mad mess will be solved when the problem kicks in big time for the canary economy.
Red Devil
22-11-2011, 18:19
So we'll forget the 650,000 figure. Pleasant they may well be, and cheaper too. Illegal they definately are. And Public liability insurance, in a private residential apartment??? That does confuse me?
It didnt confuse my insurance company so thats ok:)
I'm going now, my head hurts:spin:
bonitatime
22-11-2011, 18:35
The letting laws are a throw back to Franco's spain, protection for government cronnies which makes for a stagnant economy. Only in spain could such blatent protectionism have ended up as law. only in spain could the hotels expect to get such laws. Spain is showing us its dark ugly side here. The ghost of franco is showing through the mentality here.
Where do you get your thoughts from. Why should you be allowed to make such horrendous biased comments just because people now can't get away with breaking the law.
It doesn't matter whether this law is a total and complete ass or not.
Anyone who has bought a property since it was passed and doesn't know it about should be asking themselves why; if they did know about it and chose to ignore it, they've got a problem of their own making to sort.
The law was passed in 1995 and the fact that they haven't enforced it until now is no defence for breaking it.
If you choose to buy a property in a foreign country, you should be making damned sure that there are no hidden problems like this law which might come out of the woodwork BEFORE you part with your hard earned cash.
Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable defence in any court.
yes we knew of the letting law from our lawyer at the end of the purchase. like everyone else we could see that it was not enforced , presumabley because it was just daft to cut the money tree down. In the first place it was started to protect the hotels from the recesion of the 90's, it seemed to us that clearly a misguided protectionist law had been quietly abandoned.
I am not personally worried that this crazy law will l;ast long. all great injustices come to an end. this attack on the letting is absoluite madness and will not continue indefinitley. To say it is the law is true but you do see bad laws around the world which have to be challenged.
There are no sound reasons to burden small one apartment renters with silly rules just to help hotels. This type of thing would not happen anywhere else in europe. the only places around the world where chummy hotels sould demand such laws would be in dictatorships or false democracies like zimbawe.
The private renters are doing nothing bvut good on the island, we will all see the end of this mess when the tourist numbers drop and the problem bites.
at the moment I think campaign to end the law. I would hate to see it all calm down as before and then the gov turn a blind eye to the lettings when it suited them. I hope the law can in the months /years ahead go from this point now. If that happens I would keep the apartments and look forward to long stays myself when retired. If the law were to stay and the canaries remained ready to fine at any time in the future I might sell up.
Hopefully there will be enough of us fined to get together to campaign and sadly with the effects to come on the economy next spring there will be enough locals to join the campaign. Just imagine the business owners up near el mirador, what are they expecting next spring with all the ads pulled from owners direct ?
In this world money talks and we all have to live and find our daily bread. Communism collasped because it went skint, this mad mess will be solved when the problem kicks in big time for the canary economy.
I have a degree of sympathy for you over the size of the fine but by your own admission you were fully aware of this law when you bought your apartments but assumed that as they hadn't enforced it up till then, they wouldn't enforce it after that.
I don't see how you can complain that the law is an ass when you were fully aware of it and chose to ignore it.
And before any one says anything, I fully agree with nelson's summation of the likely impact that this will have on the Tenerife economy.
wolvesfc1
22-11-2011, 18:39
i know itsbeen asked before,but there is a lot to look through to find it.what happens to the unknowing tourist in an illegal let?do that get turfed out on the street?!!!!
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 18:42
at the moment I think campaign to end the law. I would hate to see it all calm down as before and then the gov turn a blind eye to the lettings when it suited them. I hope the law can in the months /years ahead go from this point now. If that happens I would keep the apartments and look forward to long stays myself when retired. If the law were to stay and the canaries remained ready to fine at any time in the future I might sell up.
Hopefully there will be enough of us fined to get together to campaign and sadly with the effects to come on the economy next spring there will be enough locals to join the campaign. Just imagine the business owners up near el mirador, what are they expecting next spring with all the ads pulled from owners direct ?
In this world money talks and we all have to live and find our daily bread. Communism collasped because it went skint, this mad mess will be solved when the problem kicks in big time for the canary economy.
If you choose to take the risk and ignore the law of the country you purchase in, you have got a problem if they then start to enforce it.
Your property is in Tenerife and is governed by Canarian law. Whether that law is a complete ass is completely irrelevant - IT IS CANARIAN LAW and you have to accept it.
Agreed but the punishment ought to fit the "crime"
18,000E is extreme to say the least.
A cyclist killed a pedestrian last year and ws fined £2000. ???
I'm sure that at some point in the future they might fine tune it but at the moment it has to be applied as the Canarian government have decreed it, whether everybody agrees with it or not.
In any country, you can't pick and choose which laws you want to accept from their set of laws
i know itsbeen asked before,but there is a lot to look through to find it.what happens to the unknowing tourist in an illegal let?do that get turfed out on the street?!!!!
The simple answer is No - they aren't actually breaking any law
Added after 3 minutes:
Agreed but the punishment ought to fit the "crime"
18,000E is extreme to say the least.
A cyclist killed a pedestrian last year and ws fined £2000. ???
I'm sure that at some point in the future they might fine tune it but at the moment it has to be applied as the Canarian government have decreed it, whether everybody agrees with it or not.
In any country, you can't pick and choose which laws you want to accept from their set of laws
I completely agree with you - the amount is silly, but that seems to be the rate which the courts have decided to apply
i know itsbeen asked before,but there is a lot to look through to find it.what happens to the unknowing tourist in an illegal let?do that get turfed out on the street?!!!!
Again, to stress for any anxious tourists - you are not acting illegally, only the owner (and sometimes an agent) .. and you will not be turfed onto the street.
The only risk might be paying up front now, for a booking a long time away (think Winter 2012) in case the owner has to put the apartment on the market after being fined.
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 19:04
I completely agree with you - the amount is silly, but that seems to be the rate which the courts have decided to apply
Its not been to ANY court yet
Thee fines have been set initally soley by the Tourismo Inspectorate at Vice-President Level.
The recipients have a right of appeal which is a 2 stage appeal
The first stage has to be completed within 6 months. On receipt of the appeal it is refered back to the inspectorate and they can decide either to reduce the amount or not.
If this first stage is NOT completed within the 6 month then the fine lapses.
If an offer is received within the deadline then the recipient can either pay the fine or request the appeal is completed (Stage 2)
The matter is then reffered to a LOCAL COURT which has 2 months to review the whole matter and set the final level of any fine.
Again if this deadline fails I understand the fine lapses
I understand that local lawyers are charging about 800E to settle this first appeal.
The recipients can if they wish further appeal to the high court but at a yet indeterminate cost if they are not satisified with the local court judgment.
The first appeals' 6 month limit should nearly be up now, I think.
Where do you get your thoughts from. Why should you be allowed to make such horrendous biased comments just because people now can't get away with breaking the law.
this is the way franco did things,permits for buddies, a closed economy, free enterprise subject to being in with the right people. good for the lucky few but not good for everyone else. result a stagnant economy, the haves and have nots. the hotels back in 1995 could not of got this law in without this type of mentality. it is pure protectionism, the spain of 1939-1975.
people sometimes break laws all over the world when they are wrong. not every law is right and proper. look across the sea to africa/arabia , people are battling bad laws now, are they also wrong to have been doing this ?
Bobe the Book
22-11-2011, 20:09
Can anyone tell me the Boletin numbers that show the names of people fined please
at the end of the day it only takes a small dip in numbers to make a big problem. certainly pubs, restuarants are on the edge now as things are. many owners will go underground , winter trade will be stronger. the problem is next spring, without the internet visitor numbers will fall dramatically. you do not need much of a dip to cause mayhem. the airport taxi companies are going to be hit badly, apartment customers after all are the main taxi clients there and back. everything in the tourist economy will suffer badly, shops,bars,resturants,airport cafes,taxis,waterparks,supermarkets,even down to the trader on los cristo market.
As I have already said the apartment bookings can not be reversed easily. Its all about market forces. the canary government have no idea with their protectionist mentality what a mess they are bringing down on the islands. Unemployment here is going to rocket.
They will think again when they get into the mire with this, but a lot of ordinary canarians are going to suffer before that. think about the bin men, they will be council cutbacks, once apartments are left empty the basura is going to be less on the round. Lay offs will follow.
There is not a tourist business on the island that is not going to suffer. the whole thing is complete economic madness and the law is making a perfectly ordinary thing so called illegal.
Nelson...
Let's be realistic here for a moment. The Canarian Government doesn't really give a stuff about "Brit" stylee restaurants and pubs. They don't provide employment for Canarians, whereas Hotels do. As do legal touristic complexes where cleaners, maintenance staff, ground keepers and the like, together with the Admin staff are more often than not, locals. Yes there may be workers losing jobs in the medium to long term as a result of the enforcement of the law, but in the main it will be foreigners affected and not Canarians.
In fact, it would suit the Government if all foreigners went home rather than having to support them (by them I mean "us"). We are a burdon on them which they can ill-afford at the moment.
If you are referring to the pre-booked "private" transport operators working to and fro the airport, then again, the Government here have been under major pressure from the official taxi cartel to dis-allow such services from operating. The taxi cartel even managed to prevent the bus company Titsa from setting up a route for tourists.
At the end of the day, as many others have said, the islands are their train-set and they can play with it in any way they wish.
I do have some sympathy with your situation in that the fines would seem to be disproportionate to the crime, but crime it is, and you knowingly commited it.
If they break their islands through the implimentation of a law they made and are now implimenting then so be it. The legality of the law has been unsuccesfully challenged in Europe - and as Doreen has pointed out, letting laws exist in many other countries including the UK.
I can see your thought process in trying to gather others affected and campaign against the present situation, and whilst you would certainly keep a few lawyers in work for a while the chances of the Canarian Government taking much notice at this time in the financial cycle are very slim indeed, and given the election results and the forthcoming austerity measures about to hit everyone and in particular the reduction in funding from Madrid which will happen, I am guessing your campaign will fall on deaf ears. The Government here has just suspended the southern railway project through lack of funding - a few more illegal letting fines would help. The Government here has also just had to take out a bank loan to pay for prescription medicines until the end of the year since it has run out of money and farmacias were running out of supplies.
needs must.
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 20:16
Can anyone tell me the Boletin numbers that show the names of people fined please
Noviembre 2011 BOC 215 to 228
this is the way franco did things,permits for buddies, a closed economy, free enterprise subject to being in with the right people. good for the lucky few but not good for everyone else. result a stagnant economy, the haves and have nots. the hotels back in 1995 could not of got this law in without this type of mentality. it is pure protectionism, the spain of 1939-1975.
people sometimes break laws all over the world when they are wrong. not every law is right and proper. look across the sea to africa/arabia , people are battling bad laws now, are they also wrong to have been doing this ?
You don't half twist it up nelson like a spin doctor but don't tell us, tell the Judge, hope you can convince him/her with your Franco protectionism story if so inform everyone else who has been fined and we'll all live happily even after in sunny paraiso.
You could consider It only €25.20 per week per apartment for the time you have been renting out, which on your 2nd appeal maybe reduced some what.
x
[QUOTE=nelson;117600]yes we knew of the letting law from our lawyer at the end of the purchase.There are no sound reasons to burden small one apartment renters with silly rules just to help hotels. This type of thing would not happen anywhere else in europe. QUOTE]
So you knew it was illegal and still rented your apartments.
Also it is illegal to rent in UK and the most of europe without the correct registration.
Now you have a fine - guess your luck ran out!
Nelson...
Let's be realistic here for a moment. The Canarian Government doesn't really give a stuff about "Brit" stylee restaurants and pubs. They don't provide employment for Canarians, whereas Hotels do. As do legal touristic complexes where cleaners, maintenance staff, ground keepers and the like, together with the Admin staff are more often than not, locals. Yes there may be workers losing jobs in the medium to long term as a result of the enforcement of the law, but in the main it will be foreigners affected and not Canarians.
In fact, it would suit the Government if all foreigners went home rather than having to support them (by them I mean "us"). We are a burdon on them which they can ill-afford at the moment.
If you are referring to the pre-booked "private" transport operators working to and fro the airport, then again, the Government here have been under major pressure from the official taxi cartel to dis-allow such services from operating. The taxi cartel even managed to prevent the bus company Titsa from setting up a route for tourists.
At the end of the day, as many others have said, the islands are their train-set and they can play with it in any way they wish.
I do have some sympathy with your situation in that the fines would seem to be disproportionate to the crime, but crime it is, and you knowingly commited it.
If they break their islands through the implimentation of a law they made and are now implimenting then so be it. The legality of the law has been unsuccesfully challenged in Europe - and as Doreen has pointed out, letting laws exist in many other countries including the UK.
I can see your thought process in trying to gather others affected and campaign against the present situation, and whilst you would certainly keep a few lawyers in work for a while the chances of the Canarian Government taking much notice at this time in the financial cycle are very slim indeed, and given the election results and the forthcoming austerity measures about to hit everyone and in particular the reduction in funding from Madrid which will happen, I am guessing your campaign will fall on deaf ears. The Government here has just suspended the southern railway project through lack of funding - a few more illegal letting fines would help. The Government here has also just had to take out a bank loan to pay for prescription medicines until the end of the year since it has run out of money and farmacias were running out of supplies.
needs must.
any lost tourist is money lost to english and spanish people to some degree. there has to be a spend to some spanish pockets direct and some to english pockets, all brit bars/resturants pay local rates and taxes on their premises and rent to spanish landlords. it is ripples on a pond , cogs in wheels. the brit bar owners will spend in spanish supermarkets and of course buy in from spanish supply companies in their business purchases. its just bums on seats. this is going to be like a self created crisis in the middle of an existing world economic crisis. as insane as can be. if the canary government needed cash why not introduce an annual tax on private small lettings, maybe 500 euro per year per apartment? of course the hotels may not want that.
any lost tourist is money lost to english and spanish people to some degree. there has to be a spend to some spanish pockets direct and some to english pockets, all brit bars/resturants pay local rates and taxes on their premises and rent to spanish landlords. it is ripples on a pond , cogs in wheels. the brit bar owners will spend in spanish supermarkets and of course buy in from spanish supply companies in their business purchases. its just bums on seats. this is going to be like a self created crisis in the middle of an existing world economic crisis. as insane as can be. if the canary government needed cash why not introduce an annual tax on private small lettings, maybe 500 euro per year per apartment? of course the hotels may not want that.
Think you have missed the point.
It is illegal for you to rent your apartmetns!
Peterrayner
22-11-2011, 21:14
It is illegal to rent your unregistered apartment for a commercial rent to tourists on a short term basis...:wink:
atlantico
22-11-2011, 22:02
and just to back it up, I enquired about buying an apartment in Cardiff City centre last week.
Asked if I could sublet, they said only long term rentals, no weekend or holiday rents.
I said 'but what can you do if I ignore those rules' , they said
'report you to the authorities' !!
enough said - didn't bother buying it !
lucky escape that, in my opinion you would not have got that many holiday lets in cardiff anyway, I have never holidayed in cardiff myself but I think that its popularity is falling of late
Theyll ruin Cardiff I tells ya!!!
You should have bought it and rented it for years then when you receive a fine just vow to take the whole country down with you cos it's a silly law and wales is run by the biggest dictators of all.....
It's all this self rule autonomy that does it - first the Canaries, now Cardiff - they'll sell Edinburgh Castle next
Anyway - on a serious note and in order to help out our friend Nelson in his campaign for change.
Anyone else on here actually been fined (or prepared to admit to it), or, as I suspect, is nelson the first to come forward??
You know how to empty a room !
ha ha, yes but of course thats the point. in the uk we have laws that are enforced. you do not get into situations where a law exists for 16 years and the government / police ignore it. that is at the heart of this current problem today. me and all the other renters have assumed the way things happen here you can have a forgotton law. clearly in the uk there is never that situation. its a cultural thing and does not show spain in a good light. if the law is not applied sensible the result is a pantomime.
Glad I have something in common with the Government then - they empty the islands - I empty the room - uh oh ...... perhaps not!
i am not the first and i will not be the last. i think the first fines went out july, last week on my boletin there were 9 others. this is set to run and run, the courts could not handle more than a certain number per week, the numbers recorded from the internet ads are immense. ours date back to oct 2010, so many who came off way back are still in the catch net.
ha ha, yes but of course thats the point. in the uk we have laws that are enforced. you do not get into situations where a law exists for 16 years and the government / police ignore it. that is at the heart of this current problem today. me and all the other renters have assumed the way things happen here you can have a forgotton law. clearly in the uk there is never that situation. its a cultural thing and does not show spain in a good light. if the law is not applied sensible the result is a pantomime.
Oh perlease - there are literally hundreds of laws still in force but not enforced in the UK - bails of straw in the boot of the taxi being the first example.
If you dont like spain, dont live in it/visit it, but dont blame it for your own actions
Have you really been fined nelson or have you just come along today for a moan and a chat?
I seem to recognize your type hand
ha ha, yes but of course thats the point. in the uk we have laws that are enforced. you do not get into situations where a law exists for 16 years and the government / police ignore it. that is at the heart of this current problem today. me and all the other renters have assumed the way things happen here you can have a forgotton law. clearly in the uk there is never that situation. its a cultural thing and does not show spain in a good light. if the law is not applied sensible the result is a pantomime.
I agree that this situation probably wouldn't happen in the UK but you're not in the UK, you're in Tenerife and the local law that applies to this is laid down by the Canarian Government NOT the UK government.
You knew the law existed when you bought the properties, the big mistake you made was to assume that the Government would carry on not enforcing it but they have so you'll have to accept it.
Your only hope is that you appeal and they reduce the fine.
It
Have you really been fined nelson or have you just come along today for a moan and a chat?
I seem to recognize your type hand
You don't think it's an ostrich with a new personna
atlantico
22-11-2011, 23:18
Woah ! Cardiff is the third most sought after location apart from London and Edinburgh for weekend/holiday lets !
during 6 Nations Rugby, that is !
My idea was to let out at £1k a weekend for the Olympic sports (football) being held in the Millenium Stadium - which these apartment over-look !
thats just a silly comparison. can not imagine the media intersest worldwide in the taxi/straw bale law ?
what we have here is a massive problem involving a vital industry to the canaries and many thousands of holiday home purchasers.
yes we have fallen foul of the spanish way of law enforcement and yes we do have ourselves to blame for buying and renting as we have. However we are many and the canarians who rely on our guests also have a voice , so maybe things will come out right in the end ?
to say you enjoy living in spain and accept the country with all its faults takes at bit of tolerance in the face of this sort of muddle.
Added after 2 minutes:
yes i am completely genuine. just posting my story and seeing what others think. my campaign will gather momentum as the mess continues to grow.
Added after 5 minutes:
not in my nature. yes we all made the mistake but the law is unjust and non sense. it is protectionist. at the end of the day there is no harm in the renting. myself and the many others who will take up this campaign will get on with our protest. this is how things are changed. Tenerife people are going to suffer the most, we can sell up and leave even at a knock down price, they still have to live here and earn aliving. when the mess starts to bite the canarian economy the thing will get sorted.
change can happen.
For Golf Del Sur
From another forum where I asked the question
San Miguel website gives the following as touristic:
Aguamarina
Golf Plaza
Green Park
Sand Club
Las Adelfas
Parque Albatros
San Blas Reserva Ambiental
Very surprising that Winter Gardens isn't on that list!!
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 00:27
if its not broke do not fix it. there is no reason to consider any new building when you have the existing complex's and shoips and restuarants doing the business. Business's are struggling as it is in los cristianos so with less tourists it will get worse. Maybe they canary government have pandered to the hotels too long with the letting laws. we normally could let ours many times over in the winter, there is a shortage of apartments. what you have is the mess you get when you try to control markets. hotels struggling to be full yet too many tourists who want apartments not finding them.
The letting laws are a throw back to Franco's spain, protection for government cronnies which makes for a stagnant economy. Only in spain could such blatent protectionism have ended up as law. only in spain could the hotels expect to get such laws. Spain is showing us its dark ugly side here. The ghost of franco is showing through the mentality here.
Looool omg i dont beleive it
This is a view from just a tourist!
2007 Hotel in Chayofa spending outside hotel 300 euros
2008 Self catering in Santa Maria (not sure weather tourist or residential) spending outside of hotel 1200 euros for two weeks.
2009 Villa in PDLA spending (not sure weather tourist or residential) spending outside around 2000 euros
2010 Apartment in Los Cristianos (found out this is residential) spending around 1000 euros for the week
2011 Hotel in Turkey (we were worried about staying somewhere in Tenerife we should not of been) spending in Tenerife 0
2012 We did miss Tenerife so have got an all inclusive hotel (cheaper than 2009 and 2010) spending outside hotel could be 0 but will meet up with a few friends in a bar.
2013 we are already looking at going to somewhere like Mexico which is a change as we could of managed two holidays in Tenerife, as my wife can only have school holiday's off its about the same price.
Most of the posters will say oh well you should make sure you are staying somewhere which is legal, but most of us plain old tourist's just want to come over and have a bloody good holiday. Its a shame our money which we work hard for and over the years and have enjoyed spending in bars, cafes, attractions, shopping, car hire and though not enjoyed, even on taxis! but that's another thread. will start to go to other places in the world.
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 01:18
This is a view from just a tourist!
2007 Hotel in Chayofa spending outside hotel 300 euros
2008 Self catering in Santa Maria (not sure weather tourist or residential) spending outside of hotel 1200 euros for two weeks.
2009 Villa in PDLA spending (not sure weather tourist or residential) spending outside around 2000 euros
2010 Apartment in Los Cristianos (found out this is residential) spending around 1000 euros for the week
2011 Hotel in Turkey (we were worried about staying somewhere in Tenerife we should not of been) spending in Tenerife 0
2012 We did miss Tenerife so have got an all inclusive hotel (cheaper than 2009 and 2010) spending outside hotel could be 0 but will meet up with a few friends in a bar.
2013 we are already looking at going to somewhere like Mexico which is a change as we could of managed two holidays in Tenerife, as my wife can only have school holiday's off its about the same price.
Most of the posters will say oh well you should make sure you are staying somewhere which is legal, but most of us plain old tourist's just want to come over and have a bloody good holiday. Its a shame our money which we work hard for and over the years and have enjoyed spending in bars, cafes, attractions, shopping, car hire and though not enjoyed, even on taxis! but that's another thread. will start to go to other places in the world. I am sorry i must have missed something there,did you not have a good time in tenerife,whats stopping you continuing doing the same??
You can still kill a Scotsman in the
City walls of
York if he's holding a bow and arrow
Added after 6 minutes:
In the UK a pregnant woman can legally relieve herself anywhere
she wants, including in a policeman's helmet.
This is a view from just a tourist!
2007 Hotel in Chayofa spending outside hotel 300 euros
2008 Self catering in Santa Maria (not sure weather tourist or residential) spending outside of hotel 1200 euros for two weeks.
2009 Villa in PDLA spending (not sure weather tourist or residential) spending outside around 2000 euros
2010 Apartment in Los Cristianos (found out this is residential) spending around 1000 euros for the week
2011 Hotel in Turkey (we were worried about staying somewhere in Tenerife we should not of been) spending in Tenerife 0
2012 We did miss Tenerife so have got an all inclusive hotel (cheaper than 2009 and 2010) spending outside hotel could be 0 but will meet up with a few friends in a bar.
2013 we are already looking at going to somewhere like Mexico which is a change as we could of managed two holidays in Tenerife, as my wife can only have school holiday's off its about the same price.
Most of the posters will say oh well you should make sure you are staying somewhere which is legal, but most of us plain old tourist's just want to come over and have a bloody good holiday. Its a shame our money which we work hard for and over the years and have enjoyed spending in bars, cafes, attractions, shopping, car hire and though not enjoyed, even on taxis! but that's another thread. will start to go to other places in the world.
Blimey matt cheap illegal or nothing
thats a very good point. tourists are going to be put off apartments in the canaries anyway out of general fear of losing their booked holidays in illegal apartments. People are not going to risk legal or not situations with the annual holiday at stake.
the canary government are creating a scandal that is going to harm tourism on the islands for generations. even the fully legal apartments are going to be hit hard as ordinary people will not risk this crazy situation.
the other exellent point you make is somethiong the canary government and the hotels need to consider, people are quite free to chose their holidays anywhere in the world, and if they can not stay in their choice in the canaries, a private apartment, it does not mean that they will then book into a hotel in the canaries.
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 10:47
thats a very good point. tourists are going to be put off apartments in the canaries anyway out of general fear of losing their booked holidays in illegal apartments. People are not going to risk legal or not situations with the annual holiday at stake.
the canary government are creating a scandal that is going to harm tourism on the islands for generations. even the fully legal apartments are going to be hit hard as ordinary people will not risk this crazy situation.
the other exellent point you make is somethiong the canary government and the hotels need to consider, people are quite free to chose their holidays anywhere in the world, and if they can not stay in their choice in the canaries, a private apartment, it does not mean that they will then book into a hotel in the canaries.
Well i have to say for me going on holiday,the location is 1st then we start looking at accomadation,and as it is only a week or 2 it does not have to be all singing and dancing,as long as it is comfortable and clean.
Always makes me laugh that argument: if we can't stay where we want we'll try a new country !
Why not just stay across the road from where you were happy instead of changing destination completely ?
Loaded there is only one complex in every country or island that is the best
cheers
x
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 11:14
Always makes me laugh that argument: if we can't stay where we want we'll try a new country !
Why not just stay across the road from where you were happy instead of changing destination completely ?
Is matt really expecting people to beleive that holiday makers come to tenerife just to stay in someone elses home,i dont think so! i would like to think they come because they like the island and all it has to offer,anyway i think if the particular illegal apartment is no longer available the holiday maker will use the hotels,besdides i would have thought that when you go on HOLIDAY you would prefer to go to a HOLIDAY COMPLEX after all they are supposed to be on holiday.
Added after 3 minutes:
Is matt really expecting people to beleive that holiday makers come to tenerife just to stay in someone elses home,i dont think so! i would like to think they come because they like the island and all it has to offer,anyway i think if the particular illegal apartment is no longer available the holiday maker will use the hotels,besdides i would have thought that when you go on HOLIDAY you would prefer to go to a HOLIDAY COMPLEX after all they are supposed to be on holiday.
jogger321
23-11-2011, 11:27
I fancied an adventure holiday in summer 2012
So I've booked two weeks in Dinastia flying with Thomas Cook!
I'm probably being abit 'slow' but just going back to a post from Peter yesterday regarding the appeals. You have 6 months and then the fine lapses??? This is the 'slow' part, what is meant by the fine lapses? My take on the word lapse means its ceases to be valid or expires? If so why doesnt everybody just go to appeal, drag it out and let it lapse???
Hopey
Is matt really expecting people to beleive that holiday makers come to tenerife just to stay in someone elses home,i dont think so! i would like to think they come because they like the island and all it has to offer,anyway i think if the particular illegal apartment is no longer available the holiday maker will use the hotels,besdides i would have thought that when you go on HOLIDAY you would prefer to go to a HOLIDAY COMPLEX after all they are supposed to be on holiday.
The majority of people who book their own flights and accommodation do it because they don't want to be in a hotel or on a holiday complex.
Most of them do it because they want to be on a quiet complex where they are mixing with the locals rather than tourists.
delderek
23-11-2011, 11:55
The majority of people who book their own flights and accommodation do it because they don't want to be in a hotel or on a holiday complex.
Most of them do it because they want to be on a quiet complex where they are mixing with the locals rather than tourists.
Many complexes with a Touristic licence, also have a fair proportion of residents. Oasis or Loaded, would be able to confirm that.
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 12:06
The majority of people who book their own flights and accommodation do it because they don't want to be in a hotel or on a holiday complex.
Most of them do it because they want to be on a quiet complex where they are mixing with the locals rather than tourists.
Are you sure?i think they are booking them because they are cheaper,besides if i had bought a house (for example)and a different family moved in every 2 weeks coming in late getting drunk,being noisy,i would not be impressed therefore if you want a holiday go to a proper tourist resort.
karinagal
23-11-2011, 12:11
Apart from those people who use this forum, how much awareness is there of this law and the possible impact? I would suggest that the majority of people who rent through owners direct or similar are blissfully unaware.... They might wonder why there's no availability in their favourite apartment or complex but I reckon they'll just look for similar or go elsewhere.. Am I being naive?
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
Are you sure?i think they are booking them because they are cheaper,besides if i had bought a house (for example)and a different family moved in every 2 weeks coming in late getting drunk,being noisy,i would not be impressed therefore if you want a holiday go to a proper tourist resort.
Absolutely certain. Just like us, all the people we know who do it work in education and are tied to school holidays. The last thing they want on holiday is to be surrounded by a load of children - they go away on holiday to get away from that.
The cost is not part of the decision making process, we just want a holiday where there are not loads of children around us all the time.
These people that have to and can only go to the same apartment every single year
Are these the same people that bring Beans, Bread, Spam, Bacon, Cornflakes and the own Milk with them?
Apart from those people who use this forum, how much awareness is there of this law and the possible impact? I would suggest that the majority of people who rent through owners direct or similar are blissfully unaware.... They might wonder why there's no availability in their favourite apartment or complex but I reckon they'll just look for similar or go elsewhere.. Am I being naive?
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
You're not being naive at all.
I don't think the press are even interested in this as it's a 16 year old law which the Canarian government has now decided to enforce.
The impact will be immense for the Canarian economy but the Canarian government either doesn't care or it believes that the people who are currently renting the illegal lets will switch to the hotels instead - and you think you're being naive !!
I think Bob, the main problem is the impact will be immense on the income of the people who have been coining it in over the years, and nowhere else ;)
i am best placed to inform you here are about the apartment clients without any generalisations. some are swallows, long stays anything from 4 to 12 weeks through the winter. the island could take many more of these from northern europe if apartments existed. some of these only use supermarkets others do eat out. they come back year after year. in summer we get all sorts. some have used hoterls and prefer the apartment style. others come to tenerife for the first time to the apartments. they are the new none package deal tourists who dont want the old style package holidays at all anywhere in the world. we tend not to see many repaeats from this type of customer but we do get plenty more each summer. the last couple of years in the summer we get fewer families, the Ai deals at the hotels have become the best deal for families on budgets.
These people that have to and can only go to the same apartment every single year
Are these the same people that bring Beans, Bread, Spam, Bacon, Cornflakes and the own Milk with them?
No
We eat out every night, drink in the local bars, and shop at the local supermarkets.
When we're on Tenerife, we even go to the football with the locals to watch CDT.
No
We eat out every night, drink in the local bars, and shop at the local supermarkets.
When we're on Tenerife, we even go to the football with the locals to watch CDT.
OK so if they are OUT spending all the time it will not matter where they stay whilst on holiday
another factode to put to people as we try to second guess the extent of damage to the island economy from this is the level of bookings likely to be lost. when we started we advertised only in uk loical papers. it was expensive. we normally managed 36 weeks per year, april to june being slowest, winter being strongest. for the last 2.5 years, which is the world wide crisis , we have been on the internet. our weeks rented are now 45.
with no advertising and just family and friends who knows? maybe our winter repaeats can amount to 20 weeks at best, thats if we even try to continue. the damage to the islands economy from all this is going to be massive.
lets not forgot also the point that a great many clients are going to be put off coming with all this talk of illegal letting. we could even start to see cancellations and no re booking for next winter.
Tom & Sharon
23-11-2011, 12:53
Are you sure?i think they are booking them because they are cheaper,besides if i had bought a house (for example)and a different family moved in every 2 weeks coming in late getting drunk,being noisy,i would not be impressed therefore if you want a holiday go to a proper tourist resort.
Absolutely certain. Just like us, all the people we know who do it work in education and are tied to school holidays. The last thing they want on holiday is to be surrounded by a load of children - they go away on holiday to get away from that.
The cost is not part of the decision making process, we just want a holiday where there are not loads of children around us all the time.
And residents, in a residential complex, just want a home for the same reasons! You may not have children, but a lot of holidaymakers do.
What makes you think we want to be surrounded by them if you don't?
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 12:59
And residents, in a residential complex, just want a home for the same reasons! You may not have children, but a lot of holidaymakers do.
What makes you think we want to be surrounded by them if you don't?
This is true, If you like to take your holidays in a residential apartment with all the comforts of home - you need to buy one.!!!
lets not forgot also the point that a great many clients are going to be put off coming with all this talk of illegal letting. we could even start to see cancellations and no re booking for next winter.
Well if there's going to be some sort of "action" group set up consisting of owners shrouding there own concerns in the fact that it will damage the Canarian economy and demanding all sorts of press, yes that may happen.
There's nothing like a bunch of Brits to tell a another country how to run itself hey?
At the end of the day, YOU purchased your apartment. It's up to YOU to know the law and it's up to YOU to abide by it!
Now, let's face it, it's the owners kicking off about this law due to the massive hole in their budget.
People who wish to holiday in Tenerife will do so come what may. The only thing that will change is that they will holiday in legal apartments, with the correct facilities in place to do so safely.
I wonder how much holidaymakers money has been taken off them to stay in places that don't have pool attendants, fire monitoring eqpt etc etc? And Mr Holidaymaker is blissfully unaware!
another factode to put to people as we try to second guess the extent of damage to the island economy from this is the level of bookings likely to be lost. when we started we advertised only in uk loical papers. it was expensive. we normally managed 36 weeks per year, april to june being slowest, winter being strongest. for the last 2.5 years, which is the world wide crisis , we have been on the internet. our weeks rented are now 45.
with no advertising and just family and friends who knows? maybe our winter repaeats can amount to 20 weeks at best, thats if we even try to continue. the damage to the islands economy from all this is going to be massive.
lets not forgot also the point that a great many clients are going to be put off coming with all this talk of illegal letting. we could even start to see cancellations and no re booking for next winter.
Which part of this law do you not understand ?
Even if you don't advertise, it's illegal to let in a residential complex at all or on a touristic complex without using the onsite agent.
Family and friends seems to be an urban myth put about to confuse the issue.
The law does not mention family and friends. It is written to cover commercial exploitation of the property by short term letting and defines a tourist as someone who stays there for a short period of time WITHOUT giving up there permanent address
can any one answer me please... is parque santiago 3..under touristic as many apts you can rent from owners ???
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 13:33
The law does not mention family and friends. It is written to cover commercial exploitation of the property by short term letting and defines a tourist as someone who stays there for a short period of time WITHOUT giving up there permanent address
So then according to that logic a full time resident couldnt invite their family and friends to stay with them, in their private property, as they arent giving up their permaent address.
You have quoted only one section of the definition which also states that a "tourist" would also pay for and expect to recieve such services as are included within the touristic explotation company.
Thefefore invited guests ie family and friends who dont pay a commercial rental to recieve a touristic service wouldnt fall within this legislation and so wouldnt need to be included within the Act.
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 13:34
Well if there's going to be some sort of "action" group set up consisting of owners shrouding there own concerns in the fact that it will damage the Canarian economy and demanding all sorts of press, yes that may happen.
There's nothing like a bunch of Brits to tell a another country how to run itself hey?
At the end of the day, YOU purchased your apartment. It's up to YOU to know the law and it's up to YOU to abide by it!
Now, let's face it, it's the owners kicking off about this law due to the massive hole in their budget.
People who wish to holiday in Tenerife will do so come what may. The only thing that will change is that they will holiday in legal apartments, with the correct facilities in place to do so safely.
I wonder how much holidaymakers money has been taken off them to stay in places that don't have pool attendants, fire monitoring eqpt etc etc? And Mr Holidaymaker is blissfully unaware!
I think you are dead rght there,there must have been loads of families renting these illegal apartments mom,dad,and their children living in these accomadations without any safeguards god forbid there was a fire or any other horrible situation that can arise in holiday accomadation,i wonder how many of these owners would stump up the equivelent of an insurance claim,any parent reading this topic surely would think twice about going in an illegal apartment....i know i would
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 13:35
can any one answer me please... is parque santiago 3..under touristic as many apts you can rent from owners ???
IIRC PS3 and PS4 dont appear on the offical Ayuntamiento listing of current touristic sites.
not sure, it seems to me that where a place is said to be both touristic and legal with a single letting agent, ie, paloma beach, you still get internet ads by owners for their own apartment and book it through them. what appears to be happening is that as long as there is a toristic licence and a letting agent all is done as before but the agent is a sort of front , running reception and keeping the government happy. To be fully on track you could have individual owners advertising and taking the money but then they could pay the agent and place the booking.
So then according to that logic a full time resident couldnt invite their family and friends to stay with them, in their private property, as they arent giving up their permaent address.
You have quoted only one section of the definition which also states that a "tourist" would also pay for and expect to recieve such services as are included within the touristic explotation company.
Thefefore invited guests ie family and friends who dont pay a commercial rental to recieve a touristic service wouldnt fall within this legislation and so wouldnt need to be included within the Act.
Thanks for that clarification
Does it follow from this that if the owner invites you to stay in their property without paying rent and you make a "donation" (which just happens to be the same as the rent would have been) to the running costs of the property, this law wouldn't actually cover the situation ??
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 13:51
Thanks for that clarification
Does it follow from this that if the owner invites you to stay in their property without paying rent and you make a donation to the running costs of the property, this law wouldn't actually cover the situation ??
According to my local accountant / gestor then yes if you invite them directly providing that it is of a limited and occassional amount. You might need to be able to show they were indeed family and friends of standing.
If such use was exessive ie 30- 40 weeks a year then it would be difficult to argue this wasnt commercial explotation
According to my local accountant / gestor then yes if you invite them directly providing that it is of a limited and occassional amount. You might need to be able to show they were indeed family and friends of standing.
If such use was exessive ie 30- 40 weeks a year then it would be difficult to argue this wasnt commercial explotation
Thanks Peter
I'm thinking of my own situation which would be 2 to 3 weeks a year
If the level of the "donation" happened to be the same as the rent would it still be in the clear ?
According to my local accountant / gestor then yes if you invite them directly providing that it is of a limited and occassional amount. You might need to be able to show they were indeed family and friends of standing.
If such use was exessive ie 30- 40 weeks a year then it would be difficult to argue this wasnt commercial explotation
Which is just your local accountants opinion and has no legal stance
Thanks Peter
I'm thinking of my own situation which would be 2 to 3 weeks a year
If the level of the "donation" happened to be the same as the rent would it still be in the clear ?
Bob you can't just say peters accountant on the forum said it was OK..............................inspector
Which is just your local accountants opinion and has no legal stance
Bob you can't just say peters accountant on the forum said it was OK..............................inspector
True, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption. As for the donation bit though. Very rocky ground I'd have thought.
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 14:03
Thanks Peter
I'm thinking of my own situation which would be 2 to 3 weeks a year
If the level of the "donation" happened to be the same as the rent would it still be in the clear ?
This is just my understanding from the Gestor and I have also qualified this use with the complex administrator as well.
Personally I limit such use to actual immediate and friends as invited guests and limit it to less than 12 weeks a year some of which I am in attendance as well.
They dont pay a rental for the stay.
Added after 5 minutes:
Which is just your local accountants opinion and has no legal stance
Correct thats why I qualified it with the Administrator who have thier own in-house lawyer.
No advertising. No Rental. Limited Use.
I am not looking for a loophole to exploit. I just want to use my privately owned property to invite selected guests, just has a full time resident might.
Added after 9 minutes:
I regularly take some close friends with me 2 or 3 times a year and I dont charge them any rental.
However we dine out several times and they insist on always paying the bill.
Just going back to the interpretation that says a tourist is someone who isnt staying at their permanent address wellunder that definition that would include all non resident UK based owners and would exclude them staying in their own apartments ???
Added after 8 minutes:
True, but I would say it's a reasonable assumption. As for the donation bit though. Very rocky ground I'd have thought.
I agree. Very rocky if you invite "casual friends" shall we call them. I limit my invitations to close family members and friends of long standing.
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 14:43
I think you are dead rght there,there must have been loads of families renting these illegal apartments mom,dad,and their children living in these accomadations without any safeguards god forbid there was a fire or any other horrible situation that can arise in holiday accomadation,i wonder how many of these owners would stump up the equivelent of an insurance claim,any parent reading this topic surely would think twice about going in an illegal apartment....i know i would
Although of course these illegal "deathtraps" can quite legally be let to anyone on a longer term let, ...you probably could be staying in one yourself!!
Peter, I wonder when youve got a minute if you could put me right about my last post number 1638?
Many Thanks
Hopey
Although of course these illegal "deathtraps" can quite legally be let to anyone on a longer term let, ...you probably could be staying in one yourself!!
But we'll just ignore the terms "properly insured" and "legal" shall we??? ;)
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 14:55
I'm probably being abit 'slow' but just going back to a post from Peter yesterday regarding the appeals. You have 6 months and then the fine lapses??? This is the 'slow' part, what is meant by the fine lapses? My take on the word lapse means its ceases to be valid or expires? If so why doesnt everybody just go to appeal, drag it out and let it lapse???
Hopey
Peter
You cant drag it out has such.
Yoiu have 15 days to lodge an appeal form the date of the notification letter.
Then any response is in the hands of the inspectorate. If the fail to repsond within 6months then the notification states the fine lapses.
Thanks Peter.
So anybody in their right mind who gets fined should lodge an appeal, the worst that can hapen is you still have to pay and the best is it goes over the deadline and in effect expires!?!?
Thanks Peter.
So anybody in their right mind who gets fined should lodge an appeal, the worst that can hapen is you still have to pay and the best is it goes over the deadline and in effect expires!?!?
I would guess the fine would be re-issued though?
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 15:03
Thanks Peter.
So anybody in their right mind who gets fined should lodge an appeal, the worst that can hapen is you still have to pay and the best is it goes over the deadline and in effect expires!?!?
They bshould of course lodge the appeal with an experienced local lawyer.
Jose Esacabo comes highly recommended. http://escobedo.net/
Added after 5 minutes:
THis definition is taken from Jose Escabado`s website. Note the section refering to family and friends.
3. What is the definition of a tourist?
Article 15 of the law defines a tourist as anyone who uses tourist establishments or goods or who receives or contracts the services offered by this type of company as a client.
Therefore, if we consider a tourist to be someone who travels for pleasure to a tourist destination and who stays in an establishment where they receive certain services (accommodation, food, excursions, etc.) for a short holiday period, we must logically exclude those people who stay in our apartment without paying either because they are family or friends.
Consequently, although their property is located in a tourist complex, nothing prevents the owner using it for whatever purpose, as long as it is not used offered to potential clients/tourists in any way (agencies, Internet, media, etc.).
Evidently if we want to rent our property as holiday accommodation for tourists, we must offer it to the company who holds the exploitation licence in the complex, community or building where the apartment is located.
delderek
23-11-2011, 15:09
So then according to that logic a full time resident couldnt invite their family and friends to stay with them, in their private property, as they arent giving up their permaent address.
You have quoted only one section of the definition which also states that a "tourist" would also pay for and expect to recieve such services as are included within the touristic explotation company.
Thefefore invited guests ie family and friends who dont pay a commercial rental to recieve a touristic service wouldnt fall within this legislation and so wouldnt need to be included within the Act.
Peter you have been wriggling for years, saying it is ok for friends and family etc, and that it such a grey area and can never be enforced, and on some of your very early posts, you were convinced that you were within the law,but I note that you are now only allowing long lets. Are you now giving in gracefully.
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 15:09
But we'll just ignore the terms "properly insured" and "legal" shall we??? ;)
You've lost me there, but I assume you are saying the property becomes "legal" once it is a long let? Yes of course it does, however it is still the same property that the poster was worrying about as being unsafe for a holidaymaker! As for your insurance guesswork, I tend to take more notice of my insurance company than I do of you.
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 15:22
Peter you have been wriggling for years, saying it is ok for friends and family etc, and that it such a grey area and can never be enforced, and on some of your very early posts, you were convinced that you were within the law,but I note that you are now only allowing long lets. Are you now giving in gracefully.
You call it "wriggling" I call it debating.
With reference to the family and friends issue I would refer you to the lawyrs comments on the previous post.
Several items are now very clear.
Advertising and Agency Use for touristic lettings is illegal.
Charging a commercial rental for touristic services is illegal.
It is to the discredit of the local authority that it has taken them 15 years to sufficiently clarify and enforce this postion.
Although of course these illegal "deathtraps" can quite legally be let to anyone on a longer term let, ...you probably could be staying in one yourself!!
For your benefit Red Devil
We'll ignore the terms "rented legally" and "properly insured" shall we?
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 15:35
For your benefit Red Devil
We'll ignore the terms "rented legally" and "properly insured" shall we?
Is this an echo? :) Answered you in post 1375
another factode to put to people as we try to second guess the extent of damage to the island economy from this is the level of bookings likely to be lost. when we started we advertised only in uk loical papers. it was expensive. we normally managed 36 weeks per year, april to june being slowest, winter being strongest. for the last 2.5 years, which is the world wide crisis , we have been on the internet. our weeks rented are now 45.
with no advertising and just family and friends who knows? maybe our winter repaeats can amount to 20 weeks at best, thats if we even try to continue. the damage to the islands economy from all this is going to be massive.
lets not forgot also the point that a great many clients are going to be put off coming with all this talk of illegal letting. we could even start to see cancellations and no re booking for next winter.
So Nelson...
Reading between the lines a little here, you seem to be saying that you might begin to see cancellations next winter which seems to imply that you intend to continue breaking the law for which you have just been fined 20 odd grand?
Respect!!
Even if you have stopped your advertising it remains the law that it is illegal to commercially exploit property on residential complexes, so presumably you are doubling your rent in order to prepare yourself for the second set of fines you will undoubtedly receive and which, for a second infraction, will be considerably higher than your last?
Double respect. Good man!
Keep going and we just might see the southern train project re-instated from your single handed revenue stream - it may even be named after you!!
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 15:38
For your benefit Red Devil
We'll ignore the terms "rented legally" and "properly insured" shall we?
Think our posts have crossed - answered you in post 1675
Think our replies have crossed Stevem
You call it "wriggling" I call it debating.
With reference to the family and friends issue I would refer you to the lawyrs comments on the previous post.
Several items are now very clear.
Advertising and Agency Use for touristic lettings is illegal.
Charging a commercial rental for touristic services is illegal.
It is to the discredit of the local authority that it has taken them 15 years to sufficiently clarify and enforce this postion.
well in reality it has not taken 15 years, the law was claro to start with. what has happened is that the hotels who got this law in to start with in 1995 have due to the current crissis demanded it be enforced.
the internet ads have brought this in more so since everyone is on there for the world to see. owners direct show property numbers at the side of all listings. the hotels have had this rubbed in their faces and they think that given the law these are all their lost customers.
without the crisiss this situation would not exist. it has not taken 15 years for clarification , just now they have felt pressured by the crissis to act. Obviously over the past 15 years the letting of apartments has been seen as beneficial by the government of the canaries.
Think our posts have crossed - answered you in post 1675
Think our replies have crossed Stevem
They have indeed, your initial reply just said you are confused ;)
I was relieving your confusion ;)
well in reality it has not taken 15 years, the law was claro to start with. what has happened is that the hotels who got this law in to start with in 1995 have due to the current crissis demanded it be enforced.
the internet ads have brought this in more so since everyone is on there for the world to see. owners direct show property numbers at the side of all listings. the hotels have had this rubbed in their faces and they think that given the law these are all their lost customers.
without the crisiss this situation would not exist. it has not taken 15 years for clarification , just now they have felt pressured by the crissis to act. Obviously over the past 15 years the letting of apartments has been seen as beneficial by the government of the canaries.
Would you be arguing so vehemently against this law if you hadn't been caught and fined ??
Judging from your comments in your posts I think the answer is NO
I repeat, it doesn't matter a toss whether this law is an ass or not or how long or why they have taken to getting round to enforcing it, it is the law of the Canarian Government and you have to accept that whether you agree with it or not.
You bought your properties knowing the law was there, you'll have to live with the result of ignoring it.
Look on the bright side though, if they had deemed it to be a very serious offence the fine would have been between 30.000 and € 300.000.
Would you be arguing so vehemently against this law if you hadn't been caught and fined ??
Judging from your comments in your posts I think the answer is NO
I repeat, it doesn't matter a toss whether this law is an ass or not or how long or why they have taken to getting round to enforcing it, it is the law of the Canarian Government and you have to accept that whether you agree with it or not.
You bought your properties knowing the law was there, you'll have to live with the result of ignoring it.
I'm not sure if it's the fine or the closure of the revenue stream that is causing the problem???
jogger321
23-11-2011, 16:15
One thing that a techie guy told me this morning is that just because you remove something from a site doesn't mean it has disappeared. The opposite actually, it is there forever
http://web.archive.org/web/20101027041536/http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/los-cristianos/
One thing that a techie guy told me this morning is that just because you remove something from a site doesn't mean it has disappeared. The opposite actually, it is there forever
http://web.archive.org/web/20101027041536/http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/los-cristianos/
You can roll back any website using this tool
Added after 3 minutes:
I'm not sure if it's the fine or the closure of the revenue stream that is causing the problem???
It could have been worse for him.
If they had deemed it to be a Very Serious Offence the fine would have been between 30.000 and € 300.000.
It could have been worse for him.
If they had deemed it to be a Very Serious Offence the fine would have been between 30.000 and € 300.000.
I wonder if that's what happens if you continue to break the law? IE they catch you illegally letting again?
Would you be arguing so vehemently against this law if you hadn't been caught and fined ??
Judging from your comments in your posts I think the answer is NO
I repeat, it doesn't matter a toss whether this law is an ass or not or how long or why they have taken to getting round to enforcing it, it is the law of the Canarian Government and you have to accept that whether you agree with it or not.
You bought your properties knowing the law was there, you'll have to live with the result of ignoring it.
the heart of the matter ,the central point of the issue is whether renting apartments in the canaries is a crime worthy of the law to stop it now being enforced. Added to that point is the issue is it resonable to have the law requiring 51 % and single agent letting.
in my view these small rentals can be carried out without the above regulating laws to the benefit of the canary economy. in my opinbion it is unresonable to expect small rentals to be hindered with these previously dormant laws.
as i have alrerady said laws are often challenged when they are wrong in countries all arouind the world. for any group of people to come together to protest against a law and lobby for change is normal part of democratic protest. No where in the world can it be said that any law is sound and no one can challenge it and if you break it you are entirely at fault.
the logic of your argument is any and all laws must be right and not open to challenge whatsoever. so for example if the canary government had a law that said everyone had to have red, blue and green underpants and change them every 3 hours in that rota order, in your book that would be no problem. if the penalty was 1000 euros for breaking that underpant law you would say no protests allowed , break the law of spain and stand the consequences ?
delderek
23-11-2011, 16:37
the heart of the matter ,the central point of the issue is whether renting apartments in the canaries is a crime worthy of the law to stop it now being enforced. Added to that point is the issue is it resonable to have the law requiring 51 % and single agent letting.
in my view these small rentals can be carried out without the above regulating laws to the benefit of the canary economy. in my opinbion it is unresonable to expect small rentals to be hindered with these previously dormant laws.
as i have alrerady said laws are often challenged when they are wrong in countries all arouind the world. for any group of people to come together to protest against a law and lobby for change is normal part of democratic protest. No where in the world can it be said that any law is sound and no one can challenge it and if you break it you are entirely at fault.
the logic of your argument is any and all laws must be right and not open to challenge whatsoever. so for example if the canary government had a law that said everyone had to have red, blue and green underpants and change them every 3 hours in that rota order, in your book that would be no problem. if the penalty was 1000 euros for breaking that underpant law you would say no protests allowed , break the law of spain and stand the consequences ?
Very much an oversimplification, but for arguments sake a majority is called "Democracy".
the heart of the matter ,the central point of the issue is whether renting apartments in the canaries is a crime worthy of the law to stop it now being enforced. Added to that point is the issue is it resonable to have the law requiring 51 % and single agent letting.
in my view these small rentals can be carried out without the above regulating laws to the benefit of the canary economy. in my opinbion it is unresonable to expect small rentals to be hindered with these previously dormant laws.
as i have alrerady said laws are often challenged when they are wrong in countries all arouind the world. for any group of people to come together to protest against a law and lobby for change is normal part of democratic protest. No where in the world can it be said that any law is sound and no one can challenge it and if you break it you are entirely at fault.
the logic of your argument is any and all laws must be right and not open to challenge whatsoever. so for example if the canary government had a law that said everyone had to have red, blue and green underpants and change them every 3 hours in that rota order, in your book that would be no problem. if the penalty was 1000 euros for breaking that underpant law you would say no protests allowed , break the law of spain and stand the consequences ?
Sorry but I think the crux of the matter is, you knew the law when you bought your apartment, and if you didn't you should have. You have proceeded to break said law and are now complaining about the consequences of breaking the law?
Wheather or not you agree with it, the law is an ass but it's a law. And like I said earlier, just like the brits to try and tell another country how stupid their laws are and how to run their country.
Why do you feel it is unreasonable for these "small rentals" to be unhindered by "dormant" laws? They are just that, the law of the country in which you own property! If they were "small rentals" then I guess there would be no problem. The trouble is there are lots of "small rentals" amounting to one bloody great big rental problem.
I wonder if you would be so be so flippant if it was a law in the UK you had broken? Break the law in the UK and face the consequences?
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 17:19
the heart of the matter ,the central point of the issue is whether renting apartments in the canaries is a crime worthy of the law to stop it now being enforced. Added to that point is the issue is it resonable to have the law requiring 51 % and single agent letting.
in my view these small rentals can be carried out without the above regulating laws to the benefit of the canary economy. in my opinbion it is unresonable to expect small rentals to be hindered with these previously dormant laws.
as i have alrerady said laws are often challenged when they are wrong in countries all arouind the world. for any group of people to come together to protest against a law and lobby for change is normal part of democratic protest. No where in the world can it be said that any law is sound and no one can challenge it and if you break it you are entirely at fault.
the logic of your argument is any and all laws must be right and not open to challenge whatsoever. so for example if the canary government had a law that said everyone had to have red, blue and green underpants and change them every 3 hours in that rota order, in your book that would be no problem. if the penalty was 1000 euros for breaking that underpant law you would say no protests allowed , break the law of spain and stand the consequences ?
i dont mean to be rude,but do you really beleive what you are saying,the law is the law, there have been times when many of us have said, thats a stupid law,but we still have to abide by it,i assume you live in the uk and seem to think it is ok to show a complete lack of respect for spain and its laws,if any spanish people saw this i am sure they would be offended,as for some of your examples regarding the canarian government and their laws,well............
IIRC PS3 and PS4 dont appear on the offical Ayuntamiento listing of current touristic sites.
PS2 PS3 & PS4 have been licensed and appear here http://www.todotenerife.es/t_resultados.php?lang=1&Nombre=parque%20santiago
the heart of the matter ,the central point of the issue is whether renting apartments in the canaries is a crime worthy of the law to stop it now being enforced. Added to that point is the issue is it resonable to have the law requiring 51 % and single agent letting.
in my view these small rentals can be carried out without the above regulating laws to the benefit of the canary economy. in my opinbion it is unresonable to expect small rentals to be hindered with these previously dormant laws.
as i have alrerady said laws are often challenged when they are wrong in countries all arouind the world. for any group of people to come together to protest against a law and lobby for change is normal part of democratic protest. No where in the world can it be said that any law is sound and no one can challenge it and if you break it you are entirely at fault.
the logic of your argument is any and all laws must be right and not open to challenge whatsoever. so for example if the canary government had a law that said everyone had to have red, blue and green underpants and change them every 3 hours in that rota order, in your book that would be no problem. if the penalty was 1000 euros for breaking that underpant law you would say no protests allowed , break the law of spain and stand the consequences ?
No. The heart of the matter is that you knew about this law when you bought your property, wilfully ignored it and got caught.
You chose to buy property in Tenerife governed by Spanish and Canarian law.
This law has been challenged all the way to the EU courts and it was not overturned.
We all know that this law is badly drafted but it is Canarian law and everybody in the Canaries has to accept it as such whether they like it or not - The law is the law and has to be obeyed wherever you are even if it is a stupid law.
A friend of ours who is a barrister and whose uncle is a High Court judge, complained to his uncle about a law in the UK which was badly drafted like this one and the advice his uncle gave him was to apply the law exactly as it was drafted, the stupid sods in government will soon fix it once they start to see the results of it being applied.
I've no doubt the powers that be in the Canaries will eventually see sense and fix this law but at the moment you only have two choices - grin and bear it till they do fix it, including accepting any penalties you receive before they do or you move away from the Canaries
If you don't want to abide by the laws of the Canaries, find somewhere with laws that you do want to abide by and move there.
Added after 4 minutes:
I wonder if that's what happens if you continue to break the law? IE they catch you illegally letting again?
Almost certainly, if they've fired a warning shot across your bows and classed it as serious aand fined you accordingly, if you ignore it and carry on letting they are almost certain to class the next offence as Very Serious
Sorry but I think the crux of the matter is, you knew the law when you bought your apartment, and if you didn't you should have. You have proceeded to break said law and are now complaining about the consequences of breaking the law?
Wheather or not you agree with it, the law is an ass but it's a law. And like I said earlier, just like the brits to try and tell another country how stupid their laws are and how to run their country.
Why do you feel it is unreasonable for these "small rentals" to be unhindered by "dormant" laws? They are just that, the law of the country in which you own property! If they were "small rentals" then I guess there would be no problem. The trouble is there are lots of "small rentals" amounting to one bloody great big rental problem.
I wonder if you would be so be so flippant if it was a law in the UK you had broken? Break the law in the UK and face the consequences?
in my opinion the whole small apertment, one man private owner industry in the canarys is just that, small owner managed scale cottage industry. there are these types of holiday l;ets all over europe, you can book them on the internet to go anywhere you might wish. accepting the need for good health and safety etc to be required and a degree of regulation I personally feel that the requirement of one agent and 51% letting is not necesary. Remember that the percentage in the original law was higher and had to be reduced.
these requirements in my opinion go beyond what is really necesary to properly regulate the small renter, and so they in my opinion are really just a protectionist barrier set there at the request of the hotels.
from what you have posted and others I can see that you dont like holiday renters on your complex's. On ours we seem to live in harmony.
as for breaking uk law ,as I posted yesterday this is a cultural difference, in the uk a major law of such vast importance would not have laid dormant for 16 years. the situation now in the canaries is sureal in that people bought and were encouraged to rent to pat their mortgages whilst this law would prevent this. in the uk enforcement would be immediate. spain is not showing in a good light with any of this
PS2 PS3 & PS4 have been licensed and appear here http://www.todotenerife.es/t_resultados.php?lang=1&Nombre=parque%20santiago
I know the administrator of ps2 i asked him about it he says its residential.David
from what you have posted and others I can see that you dont like holiday renters on your complex's. On ours we seem to live in harmony.
as for breaking uk law ,as I posted yesterday this is a cultural difference, in the uk a major law of such vast importance would not have laid dormant for 16 years. the situation now in the canaries is sureal in that people bought and were encouraged to rent to pat their mortgages whilst this law would prevent this. in the uk enforcement would be immediate. spain is not showing in a good light with any of this
With all due respect. I have nothing against tourist renters at all. But the law is in place for a reason. I believe that is so that holiday makers recieve all the due touristic facilities when they arrive such as reception, fire safety systems, a right to complain etc etc. And so that residents can rest/sleep after work and tourists can enjoy their holiday in holiday "style"
Have you any idea what it is like to work from 08:00 to 00:00 and fall into bed exhausted, only to be woken by a wheeled suitcase on a tiled floor at 07:00?? Bearing in mind there isn't really a changeover day anymore, this could potentially happen 6 days a week!!!
HAHA "cultural difference" yeah let's put it down to that and not you blatantly ignoring the law in the interest of the coin shall we? Some brits aren't exactly looking good in this, laws aren't optional you know!
Who encouraged you to rent illegally exactly..............
in my opinion the whole small apertment, one man private owner industry in the canarys is just that, small owner managed scale cottage industry. there are these types of holiday l;ets all over europe, you can book them on the internet to go anywhere you might wish. accepting the need for good health and safety etc to be required and a degree of regulation I personally feel that the requirement of one agent and 51% letting is not necesary. Remember that the percentage in the original law was higher and had to be reduced.
these requirements in my opinion go beyond what is really necesary to properly regulate the small renter, and so they in my opinion are really just a protectionist barrier set there at the request of the hotels.
from what you have posted and others I can see that you dont like holiday renters on your complex's. On ours we seem to live in harmony.
as for breaking uk law ,as I posted yesterday this is a cultural difference, in the uk a major law of such vast importance would not have laid dormant for 16 years. the situation now in the canaries is sureal in that people bought and were encouraged to rent to pat their mortgages whilst this law would prevent this. in the uk enforcement would be immediate. spain is not showing in a good light with any of this
It is totally irrelevant what is happening in the rest of Europe.
Your properties are on Tenerife and governed by Canarian law NOT European or Spanish law on this particular matter.
It doesn't actually matter what your opinion of the law is - the only thing which is relevant is that it is Canarian law and they have decided to enforce it.
I agree this law is a total ass but it is a Canarian law and you were aware of it when you bought the properties, it's a bit late in the day to start complaining about it now that you've been caught breaking it.
Well said Bobmac. We aren't making any headway here though. The Brits are bitter because they have broken Canarian law and have been caught. A rubbish law maybe? But a law, a law in the country where they own property, like it, lump it or otherwise.
15 years of coining it in on the sly and now have the nerve to complain because they have been caught and suggest that Spain doesn't look good?? How does it make the Brits look?
Well said Bobmac. We aren't making any headway here though. The Brits are bitter because they have broken Canarian law and have been caught. A rubbish law maybe? But a law, a law in the country where they own property, like it, lump it or otherwise.
15 years of coining it in on the sly and now have the nerve to complain because they have been caught and suggest that Spain doesn't look good?? How does it make the Brits look?
I totally agree
Other nationalities must be affected by this as well but it only seems to be Brits who are complaining
I would have to accept that there may be complex's where tourist disturbance is not welcome by residents. The question is who is in the majority on the complex ? surely if the majority of the community are anti tourist you could have had it stopped at your agm. Clearly other owners in tourist zones might have a diferent opinion, they may work in tourist dependant industries and be more tourist sympathetic.
I realise that this legal enforcement appears to be something you are enjoying but I feel all will be right in the end as the economy will suffer, change will come,maybe a diferent regulation, and maybe some permits to pay yearly. the apartment letting is too big to go, but a mess is starting now for next spring
And why all this is going on the owners who purchased on legally registered complexes, and comply with the laws of Tenerife, are smiling all the way to the bank knowing that the extra few Euros they spent at the beginning was well worth it.
Potential buyers have allways known which sites were residential and which were touristc, then made the decission to buy at their own discretion. No one can turn back the clock but a few on here wish they could!
At the end of the day owners new what they were doing was illegal and now they have to face the consequences. Pay the penatly for what you have done wrong and stop goinig on about how you and a handfull of others are going to change the world.
I'm not sure if this link has been posted before
2012 Olympic short term landlords 'could face fines'
By Guy Lynn BBC News
Londoners hoping to rent out their homes during the Olympics are being warned they could be breaking the law and left facing a fine ... Westminster fines are 20,000 sterling and possible criminal record, it says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15083506
I know the administrator of ps2 i asked him about it he says its residential.David
The only way to find out correctly is to write the the tourist authorities in Santa Cruz.
I realise that this legal enforcement appears to be something you are enjoying but I feel all will be right in the end as the economy will suffer, change will come,maybe a diferent regulation, and maybe some permits to pay yearly. the apartment letting is too big to go, but a mess is starting now for next spring
I can assure you, I'm not enjoying it! But I do find some of the reasoning for blatantly breaking the law, making the cash, and then complaining when you get caught, entertaining to say the least. And then to blame the people whose island it is for making the law in the first place that you already knew about is frankly, hilarious!
As they say if you can't do the time, don't do the crime! Hmmm I want to change the speed limit on the TF1 because 120 is just too slow. If I could just get 51% to agree with me then I can do 160 kph all day cause I'm British and I say so!! :)
And why all this is going on the owners who purchased on legally registered complexes, and comply with the laws of Tenerife, are smiling all the way to the bank knowing that the extra few Euros they spent at the beginning was well worth it.
On sale this week, a 1 bed apartment in Granada Park Los Cristianos for 138,000€ + 10% costs.
The Touristic company will not let owners put their own bookings in (according to a phone call I made to them.) So the only legal option income wise is to place you property with them and they will let it out for you.
The Management company let them for 80€ per night (less through tour operators.) I know some people staying there now who have paid this much this week.
The new owners (should they be sold) will be laughing all the way to the bank as they receive from this amount - 10€ per night .
So if they can fill them 75% of the year, thats 2,920€ for the owner or 1.9% per year.... Don't like the returns? Tough - its that or nothing according to the law.
The Canarian Government has turned a blind eye to it for a very long time, every man and his dog (lawyers, estate agents, rental companies, presidents of communities) has encouraged it and I personally think that buyers over the last 15 years had very little chance when it came to getting it right and doing things legally. Everyone scoffed at the letting laws, no-one took them seriously, rental websites were full of lets on residential complexes and no-one cared or did anything about it, creating an "everyone else is doing it" attitude. Whilst a lot of complexes should have no rentals at all (private, residential areas designed as permanent residences) some complexes were built for holidaymakers (Dinastia for example) or in the centre of touristic resorts and then designated residential to protect the hotel owners.
The Government allowed this mess to evolve and now that everyone has climbed on board they have given them the good news - ridiculously disproportionate fines.
There is certainly a need for regulation in the private rentals sector but the way the law is currently being implemented is a complete joke.
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 19:44
On sale this week, a 1 bed apartment in Granada Park Los Cristianos for 138,000€ + 10% costs.
The Touristic company will not let owners put their own bookings in (according to a phone call I made to them.) So the only legal option income wise is to place you property with them and they will let it out for you.
The Management company let them for 80€ per night (less through tour operators.) I know some people stating there now who have paid this.
The new owners (should they be sold) will be laughing all the way to the bank as they receive from this amount - 10€ per night .
So if they can fill them 75% of the year thats 2,920€ for the owner or 1.9% per year.... Dont like the returns? Tough - its that or nothing according to the law.
The Canarian Government has turned a blind eye to it for a very long time, every man and his dog (lawyers, estate agents, rental companies, presidents of communities) has encouraged it and I personally think that buyers over the last 15 years had very little chance when it came to getting it right and doing things legally. Everyone scoffed at the letting laws, no-one took them seriously, rental websites were full of lets on residential complexes and no-one cared or did anything about it creating a "everyone else is doing it" attitude. Whilst a lot of complexes should have no rentals at all (private, residential areas designed as permanent residences) some complexes were built for holidaymakers (Dinastia for example) or in the centre of touristic resorts and then designated residential to protect the hotel owners.
The Government allowed this mess to evolve and now everyone has climbed on board they have given them the good news.
There is certainly a need for regulation in the private rentals sector but the way the law is currently implemented is a complete joke.
:hail::hail:hail::hail::hail::hail:hail::hail::hai l::hail:hail::hail::hail::hail:hail::hail:
That's a poor return on investment in Granada park but I know paloma beach can offer you at least 20 euros a night and over 80% occupancy so a return of over 6000 euros per year.
Trouble is finding an apartment for sale lol
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 19:51
On sale this week, a 1 bed apartment in Granada Park Los Cristianos for 138,000€ + 10% costs.
The Touristic company will not let owners put their own bookings in (according to a phone call I made to them.) So the only legal option income wise is to place you property with them and they will let it out for you.
The Management company let them for 80€ per night (less through tour operators.) I know some people stating there now who have paid this.
The new owners (should they be sold) will be laughing all the way to the bank as they receive from this amount - 10€ per night .
So if they can fill them 75% of the year thats 2,920€ for the owner or 1.9% per year.... Dont like the returns? Tough - its that or nothing according to the law.
The Canarian Government has turned a blind eye to it for a very long time, every man and his dog (lawyers, estate agents, rental companies, presidents of communities) has encouraged it and I personally think that buyers over the last 15 years had very little chance when it came to getting it right and doing things legally. Everyone scoffed at the letting laws, no-one took them seriously, rental websites were full of lets on residential complexes and no-one cared or did anything about it creating a "everyone else is doing it" attitude. Whilst a lot of complexes should have no rentals at all (private, residential areas designed as permanent residences) some complexes were built for holidaymakers (Dinastia for example) or in the centre of touristic resorts and then designated residential to protect the hotel owners.
The Government allowed this mess to evolve and now everyone has climbed on board they have given them the good news.
There is certainly a need for regulation in the private rentals sector but the way the law is currently implemented is a complete joke.
Sanity at last.
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 19:56
That's a poor return on investment in Granada park but I know paloma beach can offer you at least 20 euros a night and over 80% occupancy so a return of over 6000 euros per year.
Trouble is finding an apartment for sale lol
would that cover the income tax: the community fees, basura, IBI, electricity, water, etc
Does Granada Park have a tourisitc licence ??? Thought they werent issuing such licences over the past 10 years.
tenerifegirl123
23-11-2011, 20:05
Apartment owners are doing nothing wrong. I'm sure if you owned an apartment yourself, you would be trying your hardest to save your money and not pay silly fines. Its a matter of being in the situation. At the end of the day this law can be changed, and instead of looking at the situation with no clue whatsoever, you could potentially change it. It isn't wrong by saying the law is pointless, as many people rent apartments anyway. Apartment renting is going to happen whether illegal or not. As an apartment owner I don't want to turn back time. Us owners have done nothing wrong, and saying our opinion isn't agaisnt the law either so...
delderek
23-11-2011, 20:06
On sale this week, a 1 bed apartment in Granada Park Los Cristianos for 138,000€ + 10% costs.
The Touristic company will not let owners put their own bookings in (according to a phone call I made to them.) So the only legal option income wise is to place you property with them and they will let it out for you.
The Management company let them for 80€ per night (less through tour operators.) I know some people stating there now who have paid this.
The new owners (should they be sold) will be laughing all the way to the bank as they receive from this amount - 10€ per night .
So if they can fill them 75% of the year thats 2,920€ for the owner or 1.9% per year.... Dont like the returns? Tough - its that or nothing according to the law.
The Canarian Government has turned a blind eye to it for a very long time, every man and his dog (lawyers, estate agents, rental companies, presidents of communities) has encouraged it and I personally think that buyers over the last 15 years had very little chance when it came to getting it right and doing things legally. Everyone scoffed at the letting laws, no-one took them seriously, rental websites were full of lets on residential complexes and no-one cared or did anything about it creating a "everyone else is doing it" attitude. Whilst a lot of complexes should have no rentals at all (private, residential areas designed as permanent residences) some complexes were built for holidaymakers (Dinastia for example) or in the centre of touristic resorts and then designated residential to protect the hotel owners.
The Government allowed this mess to evolve and now everyone has climbed on board they have given them the good news.
There is certainly a need for regulation in the private rentals sector but the way the law is currently implemented is a complete joke.
A couple of little things here,,,Granada Park having been recently built, surely cannot be touristic.
Dinastia was built originally as Time Share, and condemed as the building was sub standard and dangerous, and remained unfinished for years, until Gomasper took it over and eventually changed it to its Residential status
tenerifegirl123
23-11-2011, 20:10
If you find it entertaining then surely you must be enjoying it...
You are making out as though its as bad as some murder case...when all it is is a way of making money. I'm sure if you were fined thousands of pounds, you would feel the need to complain too.
Does Granada Park have a tourisitc licence ??? Thought they werent issuing such licences over the past 10 years.
It is being run as a hotel. Hotel website here: http://www.granadapark.es/
Hotel management group website: http://www.ghoteles.com/en/
Both owned by Gomasper
I think the point is some new the law and just ignored it and now are complaining
delderek
23-11-2011, 20:29
It is being run as a hotel. Hotel website here: http://www.granadapark.es/
Hotel management group website: http://www.ghoteles.com/en/
Both owned by Gomasper
Mmm run as a hotel could that be a clever way out, for other residential complexes?. It was advertised as residential apartments prior to building.:whistle:
sunchaser
23-11-2011, 20:31
Well said Bobmac. We aren't making any headway here though. The Brits are bitter because they have broken Canarian law and have been caught. A rubbish law maybe? But a law, a law in the country where they own property, like it, lump it or otherwise.
15 years of coining it in on the sly and now have the nerve to complain because they have been caught and suggest that Spain doesn't look good?? How does it make the Brits look?
Too right its times like this some brits really show their ignorance
It's not run as a hotel because it's advertised as 3 keys and hotels can't be keys they're stars
Imagine purchasing in boom times an overpriced 2 bed in Dinistia
Renting it out weekly to pay the mortgage
When you thought everything was going good
You get a €21000 fine in the post
So you sell up because your business isn't profitable
Maybe that 2 bed has already dropped 10% - 15% in price due to the recession
Maybe that 2 bed has just dropped 10% - 20% in price again due to these fines
?
It's not run as a hotel because it's advertised as 3 keys and hotels can't be keys they're stars
Sun Bay Villas complex in Amarilla Golf (different developer.) Cant sell them for the price they want either so its now a hotel as well: http://sunbayvillas.com
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 20:49
It is being run as a hotel. Hotel website here: http://www.granadapark.es/
Hotel management group website: http://www.ghoteles.com/en/
Both owned by Gomasper
but the same question applies even has an apart-hotel how did the get round the current moritorium on touristic licences.
I am told from a reliable source that if the developer controls 50%+1 of the available units and the statutes (which he will have arranged) dont exclude it then they can apply for touristic registration. I presume also the developer would establish the 24 hour reception, lifeguards etc and other requirements..????
delderek
23-11-2011, 20:52
Sun Bay Villas complex in Amarilla Golf. Cant sell them for the price they want either so its now a hotel as well: http://sunbayvillas.com
Looks as if someone may have found a loophole in the present fiasco, but as loaded stated, hotels have stars, and only 5 stars were allowed to be built. So Granada Park with its (apartment status) 3 keys, has got to be on a sticky wicket.
Peterrayner
23-11-2011, 20:54
if these "hotels" are part of the Gomasper group and are within the 1995 letting law that sheds considerable light on he current enforcement IMHO.
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 21:10
I'm not sure if this link has been posted before
2012 Olympic short term landlords 'could face fines'
By Guy Lynn BBC News
Londoners hoping to rent out their homes during the Olympics are being warned they could be breaking the law and left facing a fine ... Westminster fines are 20,000 sterling and possible criminal record, it says
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-15083506
Hmm - if anyone can be bothered reading the whole article you will find it actually says 27 boroughs have no objections, while only 6 do.
Hmm - if anyone can be bothered reading the whole article you will find it actually says 27 boroughs have no objections, while only 6 do.
But the fact remains that 6 do which means the law here isn't as unheard of and crazy as some make out
Apartment owners are doing nothing wrong. I'm sure if you owned an apartment yourself, you would be trying your hardest to save your money and not pay silly fines. Its a matter of being in the situation. At the end of the day this law can be changed, and instead of looking at the situation with no clue whatsoever, you could potentially change it. It isn't wrong by saying the law is pointless, as many people rent apartments anyway. Apartment renting is going to happen whether illegal or not. As an apartment owner I don't want to turn back time. Us owners have done nothing wrong, and saying our opinion isn't agaisnt the law either so...
Pardon ???
The law is quite clear.
It's illegal to holiday let a property on a residential complex; it's also illegal to holiday let a property on a touristic complex other than through the onsite agent.
Any owner not complying with this is breaking the law.
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 21:42
But the fact remains that 6 do which means the law here isn't as unheard of and crazy as some make out
Loaded you know exactly what my point is - 4 to 1 in favour but that isnt the headline:snore:
I don't think stealing is wrong either , us thieves have done nothing wrong and saying what's we is thinking ain't breaking no laws eiva!
Loaded you know exactly what my point is - 4 to 1 in favour but that isnt the headline:snore:
Lol sorry I'm in a silly mood tonight
Hmm - if anyone can be bothered reading the whole article you will find it actually says 27 boroughs have no objections, while only 6 do.
So, similar to the Balerics and Canary Islands have letting restrictions and other regions of Spain not having them :)
EDIT - quote from a Holiday Rental Owners forum
The Mallorquin (Mallorca) Tourist Minister is imposing 35,000 euro fines on owners caught holiday letting - if they do not have a licence. Licences are never granted for apartments unless they are in a hotel apartment complex, and fincas licenses stopped being given out years ago.
Red Devil
23-11-2011, 22:05
So, similar to the Balerics and Canary Islands have letting restrictions and other regions of Spain not having them :)
EDIT - quote from a Holiday Rental Owners forum
The Mallorquin (Mallorca) Tourist Minister is imposing 35,000 euro fines on owners caught holiday letting - if they do not have a licence. Licences are never granted for apartments unless they are in a hotel apartment complex, and fincas licenses stopped being given out years ago.
All very true, still one sided reporting m'lord :)
Re doreens post about holiday lettings .... Do they and the other websites have a moral duty to inform potential advertisers of the risks of advertising and also a moral duty to make sure no owners are advertising illegally in case their many clients end up left in the lurch when these owners cease to let because of the fines?
Re doreens post about holiday lettings .... Do they and the other websites have a moral duty to inform potential advertisers of the risks of advertising and also a moral duty to make sure no owners are advertising illegally in case their many clients end up left in the lurch when these owners cease to let because of the fines?
That was actually an Owners Forum, not Letting site ... you can be sure all rental sites have a get out clause about it being up to the Advertisers to comply with local laws
EDIT - tongue in cheek remark - probably merits a separate thread :)
... and since when did morality matter in the online world ???
welshman
23-11-2011, 22:58
Can some one clarify some thing for me If you owned on a Touristic Complex Could you advertise privately if you put the cleaning etc through the complex and decared any earnings for tax would it be classed legal or illegal ?.:bootyshake:
You could if the sole agent agreed to it but if they didn't then no
You could if the sole agent agreed to it but if they didn't then no
Which is a major flaw with this system. Far too much power into the hands of the license holder and if he aint a very amiable person...
Dont like how much they pay you? Tough!
Dont like how many weeks they are getting you? Tough!
Dont like the clients they are putting in your property? Tough!
The problem is, you can purchase on a touristic complex and look at your property as part lifestyle / part investment but if the management company are not good at their job or just not nice people /easy people to deal with - you´re knackered and have no options. If they decide they´re only going to pay you 40€ a week, you have no other options.
I am not sure why it is not up to the owner to decide if they want to find their own clients so long as it is overseen by the license holder who handles keys, arranges cleaning and maintenance and receives a reasonable amount for their services.
Another complex - Santa Maria, recently HALVED the amount they are paying to owners who put their apartments through the exploitacion. They hotel now pays the community fees and bills and gives the owners less than 40€ a week. These properties sell for between 100,000€ and 150,000€ and the hotel lets them for between 50€ and 80€ a night. Those owners have been well and truly stitched up unless they ditch the exploitacion company, pay their own bills and let them to their own clients for 280€ a week - but then they´re criminals...!
Which is why you really need to do some good homework before buying ... the rate of return on Paloma Beach is significantly higher than the figures you quote and as the complex has been well marketed and maintained, it is now fully booked most of the time, so you are guaranteed a fair return if your apartment is up to their standards :)
Which is why you really need to do some good homework before buying ... the rate of return on Paloma Beach is significantly higher than the figures you quote and as the complex has been well marketed and maintained, it is now fully booked most of the time, so you are guaranteed a fair return if your apartment is up to their standards :)
Doesn't matter how much research you do though if a complex decides to pay their owners less. That has been the problem on Santa Maria, they halved the payment - thats gonna hurt a lot of owners. It must be very frustrating to know you could get a better return yourself but to be told by the license holder they wont allow it.
I try to find out as much as possible what the attitude is of the license holder so clients can make an informed decision but I shouldn't have to. The choice should be there, it should not be a hit and miss affair.
What happens then if i.e 15 unhappy apartment owners pull out and the sole agent drops below 50% +1?
Agreed it is uneven, but I think it IS an Agent's job to do that research, as you do - just as you would check on Community Fees and how well run a complex is and with what debts etc
What happens then if i.e 15 unhappy apartment owners pull out and the sole agent drops below 50% +1?
I have asked that myself before. Didn't get a clear answer so far as I remember. But surely they cant simply fold the touristic letting and cancel all bookings? Then again is that not the law? As we are not talking about common sense here but the letter of the law.
It´s a valid question and again all the research in the world wont save you from that scenario. You could end up buying on a touristic complex, needing that income but a year later, owning on a residential complex where it is illegal for you to continue to rent your apartment out.
Added after 4 minutes:
Agreed it is uneven, but I think it IS an Agent's job to do that research, as you do - just as you would check on Community Fees and how well run a complex is and with what debts etc
It is but if the law wasn't such a complete and utter shambles, we wouldn't have to and we shouldn't have to as it should be a lot simpler and clear.
Seriously, you should see the state of some potential buyers after you have sat them down and explained this rubbish to them, all the pitfalls, all the problems.... Most of them dont know if they are coming or going!
timmylish
24-11-2011, 02:08
I,m not going to jump into something I have little knowledge of however, what about the Spanish owners of say the Santa Maria. Are they not kicking up merry hell at the return they now get for letting their apartments? The reason I ask is that, of course, the bulk of the owners on here are British/Irish and have little exposure to the National Media but Spanish/Canarian owners do have. This might just force the hands of the Authorities here?
But Spanish owners wouldn't bother trying to find their own bookings as they invariably wouldn't be able to successfully exploit the foreign (to them) market
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 09:19
What happens then if i.e 15 unhappy apartment owners pull out and the sole agent drops below 50% +1?
Not sure that an owner "pulling out" automatically means the sole agent would loose the registration if it was already in place ???
I think he meant if the agent has 55% and then 10% pull out
Seriously it has been suggested to me that this is the real motive in the present situation, but Spanish purchasers only !!!! Elvis is alive and well!!!
Which is a major flaw with this system. Far too much power into the hands of the license holder and if he aint a very amiable person...
Dont like how much they pay you? Tough!
Dont like how many weeks they are getting you? Tough!
Dont like the clients they are putting in your property? Tough!
The problem is, you can purchase on a touristic complex and look at your property as part lifestyle / part investment but if the management company are not good at their job or just not nice people /easy people to deal with - you´re knackered and have no options. If they decide they´re only going to pay you 40€ a week, you have no other options.
I am not sure why it is not up to the owner to decide if they want to find their own clients so long as it is overseen by the license holder who handles keys, arranges cleaning and maintenance and receives a reasonable amount for their services.
Another complex - Santa Maria, recently HALVED the amount they are paying to owners who put their apartments through the exploitacion. They hotel now pays the community fees and bills and gives the owners less than 40€ a week. These properties sell for between 100,000€ and 150,000€ and the hotel lets them for between 50€ and 80€ a night. Those owners have been well and truly stitched up unless they ditch the exploitacion company, pay their own bills and let them to their own clients for 280€ a week - but then they´re criminals...!
Yes , all you say is quite correct. You have to accept that the 1995 law only came in to protect the hotels from the recesion at that time. Originally the letting % required was higher than 51 %. At this time it is no use wondering why the law is unfair to small renters as if that should not be the case. The law was clearly put in place to protect the big hotels from what they saw as competition from small renters.
The fact that the law has not been enforced for 16 years is because after the end of the 90's recesion the islands boomed and the small renters were left alone to act independantly and play there part in bringing tourists to the islands. Only now that we are back in a much worse recesion have the hotels demanded this enforcement.
The unity of explotation and the 51% is blatently anti competitive and harmful to consumer choice. There can be no practical or commensense arguments to require it. If you accept that an apartment is in a tourist zone and can be let to tourists to enjoy their holidays, then beyond that principle you do not need all this unity of explotation and 51% stuff.
Commercial monopolies and anti competitive practices are not allowed in europe. The canary government have created this mess , first by bringing the law in and secondly by ignoring it for 16 years. Now they are going to struggle to get the gennie back in the bottle. They will end up in europe trying to argue why a single renter can not advertise and let a single apartment and why a single customer should not be given the free choice to rent it. Unity of exploitation and 51 % brings nothing to the issue.
At the end of the day there is no reason why small renters should not carry on doing what they have been doing for 16 years. This law needs to change.
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 10:33
Elvis is alive and well!!!
Yes initially I thought that as well.
Lets wait and see what info comes out on Friday.
Added after 4 minutes:
Only now that we are back in a much worse recesion have the hotels demanded this enforcement.
It is becoming clearer also that some of the islands major developers might also have had some imput given that they seem to be switching from building complexes to running them now as tourisitc apart-hotels.
They obviously would want to eliminate the competition from owners they had previously sold to.
I think the initial round of fines will be quashed and the newer ones with the crime being not having complaints forms etc will be the ones that work.
golf birdie
24-11-2011, 10:49
I was talking to a guy yesterday who owns and rents 4 ''illegal'' apartments and he is not one bit worried. In fact he has raised his prices by 100 pounds for a one bed and 150 for a two bed as he says there will be more demand as other owners stop renting. He is doing all his business on facebook and local rags back home. He's hoping that he can fly under the radar for a year or two and the increase will pay any fine.
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 11:00
I was talking to a guy yesterday who owns and rents 4 ''illegal'' apartments and he is not one bit worried. In fact he has raised his prices by 100 pounds for a one bed and 150 for a two bed as he says there will be more demand as other owners stop renting. He is doing all his business on facebook and local rags back home. He's hoping that he can fly under the radar for a year or two and the increase will pay any fine.
Thats sounds OK in principle but some local resident neighbours might feel more inclined to issue personal denuncias against what will obviously still be touristic explotations.
Clearly 4 units would be a commercial excercise well outside any family and friends use.
At the end of the day there is no reason why small renters should not carry on doing what they have been doing for 16 years. This law needs to change.
€18'000.00 seems a good reason
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