View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 11:16
€18'000.00 seems a good reason
Allegedly an owner who let apartments on a very well known Los Cristianos touristic site (without the sole letting rights) and who received a fine about 2 years ago of that order has spent the subsequent time appealing and apparently hasnt paid anything near the original amount.
Maybe thats why we are seeing second round of notifications using the Boletins and with several separate infractions.
Definitely.
I have found a fine from 9 years ago where the 6 month period passed and the fine was then quashed because "there is no proof that they are still doing this". Personally I think thats bullcaca. I think the Government are struggling to fine people under the original "crimes" so this is why there is a change of tact and they are now listing the infringement as not having claim forms and inspection books which are impossible for them get but easier to sanction.
What I think will happen is these first round of fines will lapse/expire/ go un paid and the new ones will be easier to nail people down with - after all no one can argue that there shouldn't be claim forms available or an inspection book. The fact that a separate law stops them getting this will be by the by.
It comes back to what someone said earlier about if someone ran someone over and killed them would you try them for manslaughter or for driving without insurance?
Preferably mansalughter but if you can't get them on that then use the alternative methods. You'll get hung as a sheep or a lamb.
Thing is though, nothing has yet changed nor is likely to change for the immediate future. Yes there may well be a change in the way they record the infractions and some of the initial fines may well be retracted on technicalities and so on and so on and so on........
BUT
It remains against Canarian Law to commercially exploit residential property to the tourist market. Finally, after 100's of pages of discussions, there now seems to be a general understanding of this.
With respect to anyone currently letting in this manner, (i.e Golf Brirdie's friends) whether via owners abroad, faceache, twitter or any other as yet unthought of/ yet to be invented method, you are breaking a Canarian law (no matter how stupid you may think it is) and you are running one hell of a risk for which, if you are caught, you only have yourselves to blame.
With respect to Nelson, if you continue to operate - despite your views on the law (which many agree with - except your comments on Franco!), you should remember that they know who you are and you are now easy prey.
Good luck
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 12:25
Definitely.
I have found a fine from 9 years ago where the 6 month period passed and the fine was then quashed because "there is no proof that they are still doing this". Personally I think thats bullcaca. I think the Government are struggling to fine people under the original "crimes" so this is why there is a change of tact and they are now listing the infringement as not having claim forms and inspection books which are impossible for them get but easier to sanction.
What I think will happen is these first round of fines will lapse/expire/ go un paid and the new ones will be easier to nail people down with - after all no one can argue that there shouldn't be claim forms available or an inspection book. The fact that a separate law stops them getting this will be by the by.
It comes back to what someone said earlier about if someone ran someone over and killed them would you try them for manslaughter or for driving without insurance?
Preferably mansalughter but if you can't get them on that then use the alternative methods. You'll get hung as a sheep or a lamb.
The cynic in me thinks that the Boletin use is also a tactic designed to reduce the amount of appeals lodged has there is a fifteen day period from the date of the notification and if people are unaware of the Bolitin they will miss this opportunity.
I dont agree the reference to killing someone. I dont think this "crime" is on that scale and the comparison is a bit odious IMHO.
agreed, it is still canarian law.
Added after 4 minutes:
Got to admit if I'm right about this then it's a stroke of genius from the government - a controversial law is bypassed to fine people for breaching commercial paperwork requirements that the controversial law stops them from getting.
These Canarians are stupid aren't they? :whistle:
Added after 3 minutes:
you could be right about that Peter, if they don't know they cant appeal!
Can some one clarify some thing for me If you owned on a Touristic Complex Could you advertise privately if you put the cleaning etc through the complex and decared any earnings for tax would it be classed legal or illegal ?.:bootyshake:
As Loaded said as long as the licence holder agrees thats exactly what i do but our complex is unusual there has been other management companies on site before 1995 as well as hg hotels.
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 14:49
As Loaded said as long as the licence holder agrees thats exactly what i do but our complex is unusual there has been other management companies on site before 1995 as well as hg hotels.
David what happened to those owners who were advertising and were given 14 days to register with agency. It seems to me they were given preferential treatment in comparison to residential owners if they were allowed to register and not issed with fines.
Which is a major flaw with this system. Far too much power into the hands of the license holder and if he aint a very amiable person...
Dont like how much they pay you? Tough!
Dont like how many weeks they are getting you? Tough!
Dont like the clients they are putting in your property? Tough!
The problem is, you can purchase on a touristic complex and look at your property as part lifestyle / part investment but if the management company are not good at their job or just not nice people /easy people to deal with - you´re knackered and have no options. If they decide they´re only going to pay you 40€ a week, you have no other options.
I am not sure why it is not up to the owner to decide if they want to find their own clients so long as it is overseen by the license holder who handles keys, arranges cleaning and maintenance and receives a reasonable amount for their services.
Another complex - Santa Maria, recently HALVED the amount they are paying to owners who put their apartments through the exploitacion. They hotel now pays the community fees and bills and gives the owners less than 40€ a week. These properties sell for between 100,000€ and 150,000€ and the hotel lets them for between 50€ and 80€ a night. Those owners have been well and truly stitched up unless they ditch the exploitacion company, pay their own bills and let them to their own clients for 280€ a week - but then they´re criminals...!
I was offered 3500 euros a year i months use and would have to pay to use my own apartment if i wanted to use more than i month fortunatly they would not have the 51% without the privatley owned apartments so mines registered through them but i do all the bookings with the amount they pay there would be a large shortfall to pay the mortgage the exploitation system can be very unfair to owners if the exploiter does not let you do your own lets and why would you spend a fortune on the apartment if you got very little return so you end up with basic apartments. David
Added after 5 minutes:
David what happened to those owners who were advertising and were given 14 days to register with agency. It seems to me they were given preferential treatment in comparison to residential owners if they were allowed to register and not issed with fines.
Nothing just had to register through hg hotels theyhave always been counted as hgs anyway so they would have the 51% yes i think they did treet them diffirent just seemed to want to make sure all paperwork was in place. David
as long as there was a single letting agency with the 51% you would be ok to advertise individually. in effect all the advertisers would be travel agents sending bookings to the single letting agent. When you stay in the bitacora you can book with many travel agents to do this, it would be the same with the apartments and individual advertising.
In effect as long as there is the single agensy with the 51% having the licence the government would be happy. What you are wondering is obviously the single letting agency and individual advertising makes the agency just a front to get round the law. Technically this would be the case and would be illegal. Only if the agency took the money from the individual owner/advertisers would things be legal fully.
When we have stayed in the past on Santiago 2 we booked through a company based in the shops underneath the apts called Ocean Management and used them several times. I now know that its illegal to rent in these apts. Thinking back they only seemed to rent apts mainly in Santiago 1 and 2, does this mean they shouldnt really be trading at all then???
Hopey
[QUOTE=Peterrayner;118234]The cynic in me thinks that the Boletin use is also a tactic designed to reduce the amount of appeals lodged has there is a fifteen day period from the date of the notification and if people are unaware of the Bolitin they will miss this opportunity.QUOTE]
I have been advised:
The boletin only appears after failure to deliver the notification by registered post. If the registered letter has been returned as refused, i.e. the owner was not able to sign for it, the notification will then appear on the boletin. After 15 days the recipient loses the opertunity to appeal.
yes thats what happened to us. a registered letter sent to apartments and no one to sign. that was late september. then the boltin november. Of course only heard of that from friends in the know in tenerife. clearly there will be many unknown fines out of appeal time.
I would think that they will be ok if the case goes to europe, communities have uk adress's so no excuse for not notifiying properly. Uk phone numbers and e mails on internet ads too.
probabley the canary courts will allow late appeals as to avoid cases going to europe courts to tear this matter apart, though that will happen I think anyway.
bonitatime
24-11-2011, 16:28
[QUOTE=Peterrayner;118234]The cynic in me thinks that the Boletin use is also a tactic designed to reduce the amount of appeals lodged has there is a fifteen day period from the date of the notification and if people are unaware of the Boletin they will miss this opportunity.QUOTE]
I have been advised:
The boletin only appears after failure to deliver the notification by registered post. If the registered letter has been returned as refused, i.e. the owner was not able to sign for it, the notification will then appear on the boletin. After 15 days the recipient loses the opertunity to appeal.
I was fairly sure that you had to be notified first by post before a boletin could be issued and glad to see it confirmed by someone else
probabley the canary courts will allow late appeals as to avoid cases going to europe courts to tear this matter apart, though that will happen I think anyway.
But the law has already been challenged in European Courts and no progress was made?????????
But the law has already been challenged in European Courts and no progress was made?????????
Also an aforementioned abogado was involved in opposing the law before it was introduced in 1995 and failed, then went on to set up a holiday club that was subsequently find!
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 16:50
probabley the canary courts will allow late appeals as to avoid cases going to europe courts to tear this matter apart, though that will happen I think anyway.
I dont think the EU court could rule on procedures at this level but rather if it could be shown that there had been any past precidents where late appeals had been allowed.
Also an aforementioned abogado was involved in opposing the law before it was introduced in 1995 and failed, then went on to set up a holiday club that was subsequently find!
Fined dodgey e on my keyboard:laugh:
But the law has already been challenged in European Courts and no progress was made?????????
only legal challenges I have heard of were that canary law can be diferent to spainish law , as the canary law contradicts spanish law.
that was upheld in the canaries favour. the challenge should be that the 1995 law is protectionist and anti competitive, restricts free consumer choice and distorts the markets. It favours a cartel style market for tourism.
europeon law has to be in harmony and this canary law is out of step with our modern free democratic europe.
not wanting to mention the war here, I mean senor franco.
It's not 51% it's 50% + 1
Apparently once the sole agent has 50% + 1 they would retain License for a minimum of 3 years before it's reviewed again, At the time of review they would still need at least 50% + 1 or they would lose their permission to be the sole agent.
So given that losing you percentage wouldn't automatically mean you'd lose your status on a monthly basis.
yes thats what happened to us. a registered letter sent to apartments and no one to sign. that was late september. then the boltin november. Of course only heard of that from friends in the know in tenerife. clearly there will be many unknown fines out of appeal time.
I would think that they will be ok if the case goes to europe, communities have uk adress's so no excuse for not notifiying properly. Uk phone numbers and e mails on internet ads too.
probabley the canary courts will allow late appeals as to avoid cases going to europe courts to tear this matter apart, though that will happen I think anyway.
You were notified properly - that is all that the Spanish court system requires and Europe is not going to overturn that :(
thats up to the courts at the end of the day,in my opinion an undelivered letter and a website the accused might not have any idea about is not proper legal servce, exept perhaps in a country with a less than reasonable legal system.
the janet ascoft web site alerted our friend to the bolutin, thousands of people will never know.
thats up to the courts at the end of the day,in my opinion an undelivered letter and a website the accused might not have any idea about is not proper legal servce, exept perhaps in a country with a less than reasonable legal system.
the janet ascoft web site alerted our friend to the bolutin, thousands of people will never know.
It doesn't matter what your opinion of Spanish law is.
The simple point is you bought property in Spain and anything to do with that property is governed by Spanish law whether you like it or not.
If Spanish law deems an undelivered letter, a website and publishing the details in a bulletin to be an adequate attempt to notify you, the Eu is not likely to overturn it.
If you have any cause for complaint, it would be better targeted at the people who advised you about the legal implications of buying a property in Spain.
Would you still feel that way about the local law if you hadn't been caught ??
It doesn't matter what your opinion of Spanish law is.
The simple point is you bought property in Spain and anything to do with that property is governed by Spanish law whether you like it or not.
If Spanish law deems an undelivered letter, a website and publishing the details in a bulletin to be an adequate attempt to notify you, the Eu is not likely to overturn it.
If you have any cause for complaint, it would be better targeted at the people who advised you about the legal implications of buying a property in Spain.
sorry you are plain wrong there. spain is in europe just like uk is . ultimate courts are in europe. Just like international courts for war criminals, sadif gadaffi is up in hooland and he comes from africa.
sorry for mentioning the war again. did not mention senor franco.
sorry you are plain wrong there. spain is in europe just like uk is . ultimate courts are in europe. Just like international courts for war criminals, sadif gadaffi is up in hooland and he comes from africa.
sorry for mentioning the war again. did not mention senor franco.
I hope you are spending as much time and effort preparing to appeal against your fine as you are trying to justify why you think that is perfectly acceptable for you to totally ignore a Canarian law in the Canaries which you were completely aware of when you bought your properties.
On the subject of going to the EU courts I would assume that the procedure is the same in Spain as it is in the UK and you can't just appeal to the EU court but have to totally exhaust all avenues of the Spanish court system before that can happen. If it is, you'll have a long haul in front of you trying to do it.
you'll look like willie nelson by the time you get to the EU courts
sorry you are plain wrong there. spain is in europe just like uk is . ultimate courts are in europe. Just like international courts for war criminals, sadif gadaffi is up in hooland and he comes from africa.
It's a notification of a fine, not of a court case, which does require stricter service. Anyone who has missed a traffic fine knows this system and how it can hurt the pocket (my only appearance to date in the Boletin :()
I hope you are spending as much time and effort preparing to appeal against your fine as you are trying to justify why you think that is perfectly acceptable for you to totally ignore a Canarian law in the Canaries which you were completely aware of when you bought your properties.
On the subject of going to the EU courts I would assume that the procedure is the same in Spain as it is in the UK and you can't just appeal to the EU court but have to totally exhaust all avenues of the Spanish court system before that can happen. If it is, you'll have a long haul in front of you trying to do it.
no need to get angry when i win a point over you. yes it will go all through the spanish system and drag on for ever. loads of like cases will queue up with it for case law at the final europeon ruling.
also on the point of proper service, the bolutin is all in spanish. as we know in the uk police have to pay for interpretors at great expense to deal with foreinors. we have spanish wills all in english and spanish,our poa to our spanish lawyer is in both languages.
a point like that might come into proper service too ?
no need to get angry when i win a point over you. yes it will go all through the spanish system and drag on for ever. loads of like cases will queue up with it for case law at the final europeon ruling.
also on the point of proper service, the bolutin is all in spanish. as we know in the uk police have to pay for interpretors at great expense to deal with foreinors. we have spanish wills all in english and spanish,our poa to our spanish lawyer is in both languages.
a point like that might come into proper service too ?
Nelson, I think you need to go to a lawyer here in Spain to clarify these matters for you rather than living in Never Never Land of Hope/False Expectation
PS Think BobMac is the one winning the points so far :)
no need to get angry when i win a point over you. yes it will go all through the spanish system and drag on for ever. loads of like cases will queue up with it for case law at the final europeon ruling.
also on the point of proper service, the bolutin is all in spanish. as we know in the uk police have to pay for interpretors at great expense to deal with foreinors. we have spanish wills all in english and spanish,our poa to our spanish lawyer is in both languages.
a point like that might come into proper service too ?
How did you work out BobMac is angry??? All I can see is written text and try as hard as I might, I cant read angry either?
I don't think you've won any points either I'm afraid, just a large fine for breaking Canarian law!
As for dragging through the Spanish system, no I don't think that will happen either. You either pay the fine, or wait for a bigger one to hit the door mat. Carry on the illegal practice and wait for a mahoosive fine to hit the mat!!!! :(
Nelson
I thought you were very brave to come on here and admit to having been fined - it's more than many have openly admitted, nor will do so in the future.
I'm not so sure now.
You are a foreigner who owns property in another country, and have openly and willingly broken the rules of that country which you knew of beforehand. Now you seem to expect the country in which you have commited a crime to have taken extra steps including provide a translation service in order to inform you?
You really are living in some sort cloud cukkoo land - the only translation service you will get and the only legal help you will get will be whatever you decide to pay for out of your own pocket in order to defent your crime.
Unless you take some proper advice you will end up with your apartments embargoed, your bank accounts frozen and having no choice other than to swim home.
The Canarian letting laws are legal - both here in the Canaries and in Europe since they have been tested in the European courts already and approved of.
You really are on your own in this, and clearly don't want to take the advice of those who have come forward to try to suggest what you should do.
Do please keep on letting, you will be caught again and again and probably again, and whilst you are either in prison or awaiting your free passage home, you would do well to learn some spanish - you'll have nothing much better to do.
You are a foreigner who owns property in another country, and have openly and willingly broken the rules of that country which you knew of beforehand. Now you seem to expect the country in which you have commited a crime to have taken extra steps including provide a translation service in order to inform you?
You really are living in some sort cloud cukkoo land - the only translation service you will get and the only legal help you will get will be whatever you decide to pay for out of your own pocket in order to defent your crime.
.
Perhaps a little dramatic, Muppet :) I don't think we are in the realms of Criminal Law here, but just to reassure anyone who does get caught up in same, you will be provided with a translator for free, it is your right. Civil cases, however, you have to pay for your own.
boredinscotland
24-11-2011, 19:13
Nelson, you were caught fair and square, you took your chance and were caught. The rent you have had for 8 years will cover the fine. I had a registered letter delivered to me in El Mirador in September,I was not there to pick it up, so maybe a fine for me too. You should just pay up as a costly Legal route is not one I would go down.I bought on a Residential complex and 'maybe' rented out as nobody bothered about it even though I knew the laws,,,,,you pay your money and you take the chances, now it has come home to bite you in the **** along with a lot of others. Maybe legalising the apartments is the way forward but somehow I think impossible on Mirador and costly on Dinastia
Having watched everyone's fuses blow I'm begining to wonder if we haven't met Nelson previously?
Maybe that fine wasn't for an apartment. Maybe it was for a virtual bar/cafe? :idea:
jogger321
24-11-2011, 19:51
Having watched everyone's fuses blow I'm begining to wonder if we haven't met Nelson previously?
Maybe that fine wasn't for an apartment. Maybe it was for a virtual bar/cafe? :idea:
Yes I believe Nelson's column has appeared on here before
Tonypub????
I'm hopeless at guessing these things lol
Red Devil
24-11-2011, 20:05
Yes I believe Nelson's column has appeared on here before
He did boast he was going to reappear.
Will someone not be his friend for heaven's sake.
Tonypub????
I'm hopeless at guessing these things lolnot one post by me on this thread n im accused of double dealing,lol.i will only have one forum account,ive nothing to hide and no-one to hide from.:raspberry:
Lol sorry Tony!!! I think I meant Jim and si!!
Lol sorry Tony!!! I think I meant Jim and si!!jim and sigh . apology accepted
never written on here before, having fun though and enjoying the debate, plus getting a bit of useful information at times.
I take it that I win a point when I reason an argument to counter someones point and then they ignore the point I have made or do not try to counter it with something more reasoned , but just come back with " you broke the law ,Tough !"
Its as if they are trying to close their ears to the debate and not listen to the line of debate.
Fair comment but we've had this whole thread and another one on the old forum listening to all the arguments for and against.
I would not have bought residential myself. I have always admired el mirador but was suprised to see them on the internet when we started on there. That said the canary economy needs you and clearly the locals up there live or die with you.
you all need to join the campaign , change can come, the law is anti competitive , you are harming nothing in your letting. Change can come
you all need to join the campaign , change can come, the law is anti competitive , you are harming nothing in your letting. Change can come
... and this campaign ... you've actually started something, have you ... have a viable plan ??
I would not have bought residential myself. I have always admired el mirador but was suprised to see them on the internet when we started on there. That said the canary economy needs you and clearly the locals up there live or die with you.
you all need to join the campaign , change can come, the law is anti competitive , you are harming nothing in your letting. Change can come
Start a facebook page - see how many join and you can voice your concerns on there. Good place to get a campaign going for anything.
all very british,talk,talk talk. when this fires up the canarians eg,the grandilla taxi association, we will see some action.
the bottom line is the law is anti competitive and will not stand up to europeon scrutitny. with enough lobbying and a collective movement change can come.
all very british,talk,talk talk. when this fires up the canarians eg,the grandilla taxi association, we will see some action.
the bottom line is the law is anti competitive and will not stand up to europeon scrutitny. with enough lobbying and a collective movement change can come.
Yes, but it's been to Europe already and rejected ... so you are just Talk, Talk, Talking yourself unless you have a plan :)
Tom & Sharon
24-11-2011, 22:18
all very british,talk,talk talk. when this fires up the canarians eg,the grandilla taxi association, we will see some action.
the bottom line is the law is anti competitive and will not stand up to europeon scrutitny. with enough lobbying and a collective movement change can come.
You seriously think that the Granadill taxi association can change Canarian law? One that has been contested already at European level?
:crylaughing: :crylaughing: :crylaughing: :idea: :idea: :idea: :stupid: :stupid: :stupid:
I think some elements of it are very bad - others I agree with.
Good elements:
Health and Safety standards can be enforced
Accountability to an agent - naff apartment and you have someone to make a complaint against
Bad elements:
Only one agent - anti competitive
No control over the amount paid to owners, agent can pay lots or very little
Too little choice for owners on who uses their apartment
Owners should be able to do their own advertising and find their own clients
The law needs to be altered, not done away with. Touristic letting should be zonal. Some complexes should still be classified as purely residential where appropriate but others should have the option. Owners should have to register with a letting agent in the area. But they should be able to choose which one. If they have a rubbish apartment and dont maintain and upgrade it, agents could refuse to take it on. That way, no-one can book it legally through an agent so no-one ends up booking an apartment that is nothing like the photos.
There should be no way for a license holder to stop a property owner putting their own clients in so long as it goes through the license holder for cleaning and they are paid a fair management fee (whatever that may be.) So an owner can be as involved as they like or leave it all in the hands of an agent.
Without being able to do this, it is wide open to abuse.
If you buy on an aparthotel and the management company have 50 of their own apartments (Granada Park for example) and insist owners have to put it with them, then whats to stop them prioritising and filling all of their own properties 52 weeks a year and giving private owners the scraps? So not only is the rate rubbish but the occupancy may also be pretty naff too.
So the system currently in place is open to abuse and needs to be changed to make it a lot fairer to owners and give the agents a valid role to play.
what is needed is a pressure group of disgruntled apartment owners, canary wide, not just tenerife. This group should lobby politicans in the canarys and the uk about this anti competitive law.
canary interest groups should also be approached to link to the campaign eg, taxi companies, restuarants, etc.
legal action should be initiated with top lawyers in this aspect of the law, they may be uk based with liason with local lawyers in tenerife. Media attention is also going to help the campaign and of course embarrass the canary government.
there are many thousands of people who are affected by this , I can not be the only one who thinks we could fight it and win
Added after 4 minutes:
europe ruled on issue of canary law being different to spanish law, no rulings been made on anti-competition law
timmylish
24-11-2011, 22:38
I can quite confidently advise "Nelson". You are on to plums! Various posters have tried to calmly advise you on the basis in which you argument is totally impaired both by Doreen,s assertion that the matter had already gone to the Courts in the EU and the more direct advice offered by Muppet, both of which I would wholeheartedly agree with.
Caught lock, stock and barrel (blazing no doubt).
As I always used to advise people, there comes a time when you have to hold your hands up and call it :caught" so just pay up as the country needs your unpaid debt to society!
all this single agent stuff and the 51% is the root of the problem. why should any private owner in a tourist zone have to be burdened with that? I dont agree that the single agent helps with complaints, if you look after your clients and provide a good clean place you have done the job right. If you have a dump people will not come back and maybe right about you on trip advisor. Thats what happens when you stay in a bad hotel. I dont think that the unity of exploitation gives help with basic good management.
health and safety and insurance needs better regulation in the private rented sector. If the government was moving towards that position and seeking to support its important private letting industry then that would be a good thing for all.
what is needed is a pressure group of disgruntled apartment owners, canary wide, not just tenerife. This group should lobby politicans in the canarys and the uk about this anti competitive law.
canary interest groups should also be approached to link to the campaign eg, taxi companies, restuarants, etc.
legal action should be initiated with top lawyers in this aspect of the law, they may be uk based with liason with local lawyers in tenerife. Media attention is also going to help the campaign and of course embarrass the canary government.
there are many thousands of people who are affected by this , I can not be the only one who thinks we could fight it and win
Added after 4 minutes:
europe ruled on issue of canary law being different to spanish law, no rulings been made on anti-competition lawThe new fines were for not having "Libros de reclamacion" etc.Nothing to do with Canarian law as this applies throughout Spain.Whilst there were a couple of lawyers prepared to take accion regarding adverts on internet etc.I would be suprised to fine one prepared to fight the latest fines.Although I suppose they can't lose if they take money from you before starting an accion.I heard of a lawyer who recently told his elderly clients not to pay a fine. Now they have had their bank account embargoed (their UK pension is paid into this account) and they can't use their account to pay bills or access any money with which to pay thier daily living expenses.Good bit of advice from a local lawyer!!! Appeal aginst the amount of the fine by all means but not the fine itself.You may stand a chance of paying less rather than nothing at all!
Hmmmm
Let's for the sake of argument say there are multiple agents per complex. While that might help owners out with an increase in competition it just confuses the most important people in all of this: the customer.
Imagine the scenario: someone goes to the onsite agen and says "I'm locked out / I have a medical emergency / my toilet isn't working / whatever" and the answer is : "I'm sorry we don't look after that apartment you need to call matey up the road"..... Not very good.
Also when said client then writes a review on tripadvisor slating the customer service from said hotel/aparthotel/apartments then all of the multiple agents cop a load because one agent wasn't onsite.
Is that fair? Should one business be allowed to screw up someone else's like that?
It has been working that way anyways with multiple agents renting out apartments on multiple complexes.
Whoever is managing that apartment should have it exclusively and the responsibility is theirs to maintain it, arrange repairs, update furniture etc on behalf of the owner.
A review on trip advisor should say "I booked xxxxx complex through xxxxx management company and they were good/bad/ugly"
It has been working that way anyways with multiple agents renting out apartments on multiple complexes.
Whoever is managing that apartment should have it exclusively and the responsibility is theirs to maintain it, arrange repairs, update furniture etc on behalf of the owner.
A review on trip advisor should say "I booked xxxxx complex through xxxxx management company and they were good/bad/ugly"
Do you mean bombarded by every man and his dog?
A limit on how many agents per complex could be imposed determined by the number of units.
With a system along these lines, owners could choose their agent after meeting with them and agreeing commission, management fees etc rather than having it sprung on them that "as of 1st Jan, we´ll be halfing what you get and there's nowt you can do about it mwahahahaha!"
I'm sure on a complex like Paloma Beach where there's a large established agent then they'd get the bulk anyways as they´re on site and would be the obvious agent to use but it would mean that clients have another option should they not be happy with the service provided from one particular agent rather than a "take it or leave it" option. Best overall service would win out over the long run.
Interested in your views on this Loaded as to how workable something could be.
welshman
24-11-2011, 23:37
Can you explain what ( The new fines were for not having "Libros de reclamacion" ) means what is this all about
Peterrayner
24-11-2011, 23:46
Just to clarify the referal of the Ley 7/1995 to the EU court this was done by the Comunidadnos Europeos on the basis that the sole agent 50%+1 was in contravention of EU laws angaint anti competetive practices.
The court ruled that the Canaries were a separate protected autonomous community outside the normal EU legislation in this matter and need exceptional protection due to their unique positon.
However the ruling was never made public and has such might therefore well be subject to further objections and appeals.
what is needed is a pressure group of disgruntled apartment owners, canary wide, not just tenerife. This group should lobby politicans in the canarys and the uk about this anti competitive law.
canary interest groups should also be approached to link to the campaign eg, taxi companies, restuarants, etc.
legal action should be initiated with top lawyers in this aspect of the law, they may be uk based with liason with local lawyers in tenerife. Media attention is also going to help the campaign and of course embarrass the canary government.
there are many thousands of people who are affected by this , I can not be the only one who thinks we could fight it and win
Added after 4 minutes:
europe ruled on issue of canary law being different to spanish law, no rulings been made on anti-competition law
Going back to all this Talk, Talk ... just what are you doing apart from posting on here. One of the most influential organisations in the South, CEST, which has many restauranteurs and those in tourist services affiliated and there is also ASOCIO
http://www.canarianweekly.com/asocio/ ... dust off your Spanish ... and off you go
Can you explain what ( The new fines were for not having "Libros de reclamacion" ) means what is this all about
By law, every business or supplier of services must have an official Complaints Book on the premises with forms that can be filled out by a customer - it's quite strong on Consumer Protection (I used one to complain about my treatment in the Green Clinic and know that the doctor was interviewed about it as a result (he disputed it of course :()
So obviously as illegally rented apartments are not registered, they cannot have this Libro de Reclamaciones/Complaints Book
is this book supplied by the canary government/ayuntamiento to each business? is each book specific to the business or do you just buy it from a stationary shop or produce your own book/ complaint forms from your computer ?
I have seen the signs in all shops/bars/restuarants stating in English and spanish that the books exist and are available on the premises.
Added after 16 minutes:
on our complex we have no single letting agent. we have no reception. we are just a community of private owners. the owners who rent out , and they are approx 85 %, all do it themselves. This has happened for the 8 years we have been on there and goes back to the building of the apartments 30 odd years ago.
most owners have one apartment , some have a couple more. All owners organise there own cleaning by whoever they chose. The complex is very poular and in winter I would say there is a waiting list to get in.
The guests all realise they are booking a private apartment and as such would no that they could get no help with a medical emergency beyond there own knowlegde. That said everyone on there is friendly and help would be offered and advice, just like at home in a normal street.
We provide our managers details for maintenance issues , though some clients do sort some things themselves with mixed results.
People book and stay in self catering accomodation all over the world with a minimum of fuss and often survive and enjoy the experience. It is not necesary to think that you need a single letting agent and a manned reception or this business can not function.
thats just a silly anti competitive barrier to entry dreamt up by the canary hotels 16 years ago.
Pre 1995:
On a complex that was designated touristic any one could apply to register a minimum of 2 apartments. Problem occured, as stated previously, that when there was a problem the client was passed around by the agents who did not look after the particular apartment. Solution was for the agents on the complex to work together, but this never happened. This was one reason the 1995 law was introduced to protect the client!
On a complex that was designated residential it was still illegal to rent to tourists.
2011:
It would be interesting to see the result in the European court from a group of non Canarian/Spanish who have purchased property in Tenerife to make money illegally and expect them to change the law! If you think that going to the European court will win your rights be prepared for a long and expensive ride, could take several years.
Claim forms are specific to each business as are inspection books
Claim forms are specific to each business as are inspection books
And are issued by the canarian government, it is an official document that cannot be purchased from a local shop or designed on a computer!
jogger321
25-11-2011, 10:22
is this book supplied by the canary government/ayuntamiento to each business? is each book specific to the business or do you just buy it from a stationary shop or produce your own book/ complaint forms from your computer ?
I have seen the signs in all shops/bars/restuarants stating in English and spanish that the books exist and are available on the premises.
Added after 16 minutes:
on our complex we have no single letting agent. we have no reception. we are just a community of private owners. the owners who rent out , and they are approx 85 %, all do it themselves. This has happened for the 8 years we have been on there and goes back to the building of the apartments 30 odd years ago.
most owners have one apartment , some have a couple more. All owners organise there own cleaning by whoever they chose. The complex is very poular and in winter I would say there is a waiting list to get in.
The guests all realise they are booking a private apartment and as such would no that they could get no help with a medical emergency beyond there own knowlegde. That said everyone on there is friendly and help would be offered and advice, just like at home in a normal street.
We provide our managers details for maintenance issues , though some clients do sort some things themselves with mixed results.
People book and stay in self catering accomodation all over the world with a minimum of fuss and often survive and enjoy the experience. It is not necesary to think that you need a single letting agent and a manned reception or this business can not function.
thats just a silly anti competitive barrier to entry dreamt up by the canary hotels 16 years ago.
If this was in the UK I have a number of lawyer friends who would be only too happy to take this on for you. They tell me that frequently they take on work that they know they have absolutely no hope of winning but the client is always adamant they are in the right. Needless to say the work is often protracted and with each communication whether via phone E Mail, phone or letter being billable to the client. There is a good reason why many lawyers live in big houses and drive expensive cars.. I would have thought you would have worked that one out Nelson?
I was in a lawyers office the other week and there was a sign saying : it's not about winning or losing, it's about how much money you make
Jimmyhow
25-11-2011, 10:45
Hi
Apologies if I break any forum protocol/rules but I have never registered nor posted on any internet site before.
I have read with great interest all 182 pages of this thread since June this year as we have a vested interest. We own a property on a residential complex and only used to let to family, friends and work colleagues but in March last year decided to advertise on a commercial internet site as others were doing it and reaping substantial rewards.
Silly I know and yes we acknowledge we have broken Canarian law. Even more stupid was the fact that we were advised when we bought our apartment that we couldn't short let and we have had warnings enclosed in our annual AGM documentation also but as many people have stated on here the Canarian Govt. hadn't enforced the law for 16 years so why should they start now?
However people on here seem to be saying you've broken the law so doff your cap, apologise for your transgression and pay a totally inappropriate fine - it is widely acknowledged on here that 18k for not displaying the correct complaints notice is just that.
I don't know if the law could be changed but my advice would be "appeal, appeal, appeal" as it appears that the Canarian govt. and their inspectors are a pretty amateurish bunch. The initial fines in Dinastia do not seem valid or are, at least, on stoney ground hence the need to change tack.
Additionally, how have the inspectors obtained their information? I spent most of last night reading the terms and conditions of the site I used to advertise on (we removed our advert in June - too late by all accounts!!!!) and the upshot is that "personal data" recorded on the site can only be used for "advertising or renting of property". Any other use is prohibited (including litigation - which is mentioned in the terms & conditions) without the prior written consent of the site owners - Data Protection law anybody???? I e-mailed the site last night and await their reply with great interest.
Before anyone says this law may not be valid in the Canaries/Europe (which incidentally I think it would be) they may have obtained their information via a UK based site so a counter lawsuit could be issued in the UK - imagine the detrimental effect that would have on the Canarian tourism industry if it got into the British press. Oh and remind me again - what is the sole purpose of them existing in the first place????
I admire Nelson for coming on here and admitting to be fined and also for his efforts in trying to arrange an owners group which I would be more than willing to join. I will be his friend as someone asked!!!!
We have not been fined as yet but fully expect to be so and thanks to your excellent thread we search our NIE nos on Google everyday and read the daily boletins with nervous anticipation, fear and dread all at the same time!!!!!
One thing is certain we will appeal if we are fined and drag it out as long as possible until a solution is found by somebody, somewhere.
Anyway need to pack now as we are off for a well earned 2 week stay in our gorgeous apartment - wait a minute after reading all these posts my brain is scrambled not sure if this is a legal let or not? - might have to cancel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know if the law could be changed but my advice would be "appeal, appeal, appeal" as it appears that the Canarian govt. and their inspectors are a pretty amateurish bunch. The initial fines in Dinastia do not seem valid or are, at least, on stoney ground hence the need to change tack.
If you are unfortunate enough to meet one of these inspectors you will find them quite the contrary
Welcome to the forum Jimmy,I totally agree with you and i don't have a vested interest,im just a mere holidaymaker who likes to choose where to stay!
It has been working that way anyways with multiple agents renting out apartments on multiple complexes.
Whoever is managing that apartment should have it exclusively and the responsibility is theirs to maintain it, arrange repairs, update furniture etc on behalf of the owner.
A review on trip advisor should say "I booked xxxxx complex through xxxxx management company and they were good/bad/ugly"
A limit on how many agents per complex could be imposed determined by the number of units.
With a system along these lines, owners could choose their agent after meeting with them and agreeing commission, management fees etc rather than having it sprung on them that "as of 1st Jan, we´ll be halfing what you get and there's nowt you can do about it mwahahahaha!"
I'm sure on a complex like Paloma Beach where there's a large established agent then they'd get the bulk anyways as they´re on site and would be the obvious agent to use but it would mean that clients have another option should they not be happy with the service provided from one particular agent rather than a "take it or leave it" option. Best overall service would win out over the long run.
Interested in your views on this Loaded as to how workable something could be.
Has it been working? I regularly get people locking themselves out of apartments that Marcus Maangement look after and have rented out on Paloma Beach and all I can do is apologise and give the client their number and hope they answer the emergency contact.
It only takes one of those clients to write a review about the poor service or poor standard and our review score suffers because of someone else.
People are hardly likely to adhere to your perfect world scenario on their reviews. They won't write a review like: "I stayed on Paloma beach and booked via xyz company and stayed in apartment 123 from the 10th may to the 17th may our name was bloggs we loved it it was great".
Half the time it's "we loved it and the apartment was great" - review by BOBBIE1234.
I don't think that is considered "working", it might work for MM and their like but it doesn't work for the customer, for me, or the overall reputatation of the complex.
Let me put it another way......... lets say you go on holiday to New York and book a room in a hotel, your toilet is blocked so you go to Reception for help and they say "sorry sir we don't look after that room, you need to go across town or call this number for help"
Not really very good is it???????
But I would know who to contact because I would have booked through them and have got my keys from them. If there was a reception, they would have the name and contact details of the limited number of agents who can legally advertise and let those apartments. As easy as looking up a number if the client cant remember it themselves. Plus reception would have some role to play depending on whether it was funded by community fees or not.
carolethatch
25-11-2011, 11:54
Hi
Apologies if I break any forum protocol/rules but I have never registered nor posted on any internet site before.
I have read with great interest all 182 pages of this thread since June this year as we have a vested interest. We own a property on a residential complex and only used to let to family, friends and work colleagues but in March last year decided to advertise on a commercial internet site as others were doing it and reaping substantial rewards.
Silly I know and yes we acknowledge we have broken Canarian law. Even more stupid was the fact that we were advised when we bought our apartment that we couldn't short let and we have had warnings enclosed in our annual AGM documentation also but as many people have stated on here the Canarian Govt. hadn't enforced the law for 16 years so why should they start now?
However people on here seem to be saying you've broken the law so doff your cap, apologise for your transgression and pay a totally inappropriate fine - it is widely acknowledged on here that 18k for not displaying the correct complaints notice is just that.
I don't know if the law could be changed but my advice would be "appeal, appeal, appeal" as it appears that the Canarian govt. and their inspectors are a pretty amateurish bunch. The initial fines in Dinastia do not seem valid or are, at least, on stoney ground hence the need to change tack.
Additionally, how have the inspectors obtained their information? I spent most of last night reading the terms and conditions of the site I used to advertise on (we removed our advert in June - too late by all accounts!!!!) and the upshot is that "personal data" recorded on the site can only be used for "advertising or renting of property". Any other use is prohibited (including litigation - which is mentioned in the terms & conditions) without the prior written consent of the site owners - Data Protection law anybody???? I e-mailed the site last night and await their reply with great interest.
Before anyone says this law may not be valid in the Canaries/Europe (which incidentally I think it would be) they may have obtained their information via a UK based site so a counter lawsuit could be issued in the UK - imagine the detrimental effect that would have on the Canarian tourism industry if it got into the British press. Oh and remind me again - what is the sole purpose of them existing in the first place????
I admire Nelson for coming on here and admitting to be fined and also for his efforts in trying to arrange an owners group which I would be more than willing to join. I will be his friend as someone asked!!!!
We have not been fined as yet but fully expect to be so and thanks to your excellent thread we search our NIE nos on Google everyday and read the daily boletins with nervous anticipation, fear and dread all at the same time!!!!!
One thing is certain we will appeal if we are fined and drag it out as long as possible until a solution is found by somebody, somewhere.
Anyway need to pack now as we are off for a well earned 2 week stay in our gorgeous apartment - wait a minute after reading all these posts my brain is scrambled not sure if this is a legal let or not? - might have to cancel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The inspectors got all the details from your admin company who run your complex in Tenerife, so they have every owners details and U.K. address. They have the power to get these details from your administrator.
I don't know if the law could be changed but my advice would be "appeal, appeal, appeal" as it appears that the Canarian govt. and their inspectors are a pretty amateurish bunch. The initial fines in Dinastia do not seem valid or are, at least, on stoney ground hence the need to change tack.
Shall we await the outcome before we prejudge the Canarian Govt.
or their inspectors.Very little more amateurish than buying an apartment in a complex where you know that you aren't allowed to rent out and then deciding renting it out and then whinging about the fines, which, for the many owners who haven't paid any tax on their rental income,do not seem especially high.It says it all in the "reaping substantial rewards" comment in your post. Whilst the people lucky enough to have work in Spain are paying high taxes why should others, whose gains are illegal profit from their misdeeds?
But I would know who to contact because I would have booked through them and have got my keys from them. If there was a reception, they would have the name and contact details of the limited number of agents who can legally advertise and let those apartments. As easy as looking up a number if the client cant remember it themselves. Plus reception would have some role to play depending on whether it was funded by community fees or not.
But at the moment you cannot do this in Tenerife and not for the foreseable future either!
We have has situations where a guest has requested contact details after booking through a third party in an illegally let apartment and unfortunately we are unable to assist as there have not been any contact details!
The idea of using a system of various agents does not work unless there is one company/agent responsible for the complete complex. It has been tried and it has failed.
thanks for your support, I am clearly beating myself up with a small group of wind up merchants on here, but I am enjoying the debate and some useful information is coming through. I am sure you are are not alone in supporting what I am proposing and we are going to need a lot of us to bring pressure and maybe collectivly pay our lawyers. This pressure group needs to be canary wide not just tenerife, we have strength in numbers.
the fine is based entirely on your internet ad but they would need apartment number info from your community admistrators. Not all internet advertisers show complex name or certainly not specific apartment numbers.
interseting to see this morning several posters trying to argue the 1995 law is a big help to customers with the single letting. they are getting really to the bottom of the barrel now. As if all these private rental customers have endured a nightmare these past 16 years in our apartments without the single letting agent.
But I would know who to contact because I would have booked through them and have got my keys from them. If there was a reception, they would have the name and contact details of the limited number of agents who can legally advertise and let those apartments. As easy as looking up a number if the client cant remember it themselves. Plus reception would have some role to play depending on whether it was funded by community fees or not.
Andy it's a nice idea and i'm sure you and I could grasp the concept but when people have been travelling all day, and are in a foreign country their intellignece levels do dip dramatically. For example I had a client of an owner arrive the other week and the conversation went a little like this:
Me: Hello how are you?
Client: Very well thanks. We've arrived, the name is Bloggs (whatever it was).
Me: (after looking on my list of arrivals for a few moments...)... Ok you're not on my list here, have you booked direct with an owner.
Client: Yes we have.
Me: ok, which apartment is it?
Client: I don't know the number.
Me: ok do you know their name?
Client: erm, not sure.... might be paul or John.....
Me: ok is it John x?
Client: no.
Me; John y
Client: no.
Me john z?
Client: no.
Me: ok do you have any confirmation or any other information?
Client: we booked it through a mate of ours who's a taxi driver in Blackpool, he told us about this guy who could get us in here.
Me: ok......
This went on for AGES... what the hell am I meant to do with that information? in the end after an hour the wife found a bit of scrap paper with the owners name on it and I was able to get them into the right place. But this sort of amateur behaviour is frequent among private owners, especially the older ones.
Jimmyhow
25-11-2011, 13:38
Hi Carolethatch
I am aware that the administrators of the complex have provided details of owners and UK addresses (neither of which were available on my ad by the way) but surely they would need to marry up 2 items of info in order to prove their case. Unless they have knocked on my apartment door and obtained a written statement from 1 of my "illegal tenants" the only other place they could have got the info is the website. Additionally they may yet prove to have the relevant authority to do so but I doubt it. Surely the burden of proof lies with them.
It is not the only defence either just something I decided to explore a little last night.
Hi Fonica
Sorry I thought I had admitted to feeling stupid because of my actions but I am quite within my rights to appeal an inappropriate fine. Would you if you received one?
My thoughts on the authorities are a personal opinion only and may prove to be totally false but the fact that the law has been challenged in the European courts and said to be valid and they have yet to enforce it successfully despite numerous attempts says otherwise. The date of the offences on the most recent fines was 6/10/2010 i.e. over 12 months ago and now for not having the correct complaints procedure in place. Why would the apartments need a complaints procedure unless they were illegally letting in the 1st place? Again can they prove this if so via the website?
Hi Nelson
I agree the banter is good and I have got a lot of useful info from the posts as I said before.
You can count on my future support even though I haven’t been fined - YET
thanks for your support, I am clearly beating myself up with a small group of wind up merchants on here, but I am enjoying the debate and some useful information is coming through. I am sure you are are not alone in supporting what I am proposing and we are going to need a lot of us to bring pressure and maybe collectivly pay our lawyers. This pressure group needs to be canary wide not just tenerife, we have strength in numbers.
the fine is based entirely on your internet ad but they would need apartment number info from your community admistrators. Not all internet advertisers show complex name or certainly not specific apartment numbers.
interseting to see this morning several posters trying to argue the 1995 law is a big help to customers with the single letting. they are getting really to the bottom of the barrel now. As if all these private rental customers have endured a nightmare these past 16 years in our apartments without the single letting agent.
We are not arguing the law, it's the law.
Bottom of the barrel! No I think that is where you are, it's you with the 21'000.000 fine.
It has been working that way anyways with multiple agents renting out apartments on multiple complexes.
Whoever is managing that apartment should have it exclusively and the responsibility is theirs to maintain it, arrange repairs, update furniture etc on behalf of the owner.
A review on trip advisor should say "I booked xxxxx complex through xxxxx management company and they were good/bad/ugly"
Its been working in Cristian Sur where there is multipal onsite management but no confusion as all keys are collected from reception all and contact details are suplied to all clients for repairs ect but this was the case pre 1995 and still exists today.David
Hmmm how many more deluded owners are going to appear, willing to line lawyers pockets on a pointless crusade to the EU courts just because they have knowingly and wilfully broken the law in a country they have shown so much disrespect???
Its been working in Cristian Sur where there is multipal onsite management but no confusion as all keys are collected from reception all and contact details are suplied to all clients for repairs ect but this was the case pre 1995 and still exists today.David
And you have a sole letting agent who is responsible for all activities relating to tourism, one agent who answers to the tourist board and the same agent who has the registrations of all bookings and client details. Not quite a free for all, but I can see your point - difference is Cristian Sur is touristic and the infastructure for tourism is in place.
We offered this kind of thing to MM and a lady who had an office onsite but was not tourist board registered. We offered them a collaboration and they would not put any money up towards running costs or in the event of one of their clients generating a fine so unfortunately we did not collaborate.
Hi Carolethatch
I am aware that the administrators of the complex have provided details of owners and UK addresses (neither of which were available on my ad by the way) but surely they would need to marry up 2 items of info in order to prove their case. Unless they have knocked on my apartment door and obtained a written statement from 1 of my "illegal tenants" the only other place they could have got the info is the website. Additionally they may yet prove to have the relevant authority to do so but I doubt it. Surely the burden of proof lies with them.
It is not the only defence either just something I decided to explore a little last night.
Hi Fonica
Sorry I thought I had admitted to feeling stupid because of my actions but I am quite within my rights to appeal an inappropriate fine. Would you if you received one?
My thoughts on the authorities are a personal opinion only and may prove to be totally false but the fact that the law has been challenged in the European courts and said to be valid and they have yet to enforce it successfully despite numerous attempts says otherwise. The date of the offences on the most recent fines was 6/10/2010 i.e. over 12 months ago and now for not having the correct complaints procedure in place. Why would the apartments need a complaints procedure unless they were illegally letting in the 1st place? Again can they prove this if so via the website?
Hi Nelson
I agree the banter is good and I have got a lot of useful info from the posts as I said before.
You can count on my future support even though I haven’t been fined - YET
There isn't any hurry for the Govt. to impose the fines.They are accruing interest and you can't sell your property until they are paid so they won't be too worried.The fines are really not high when you consider the rents that have been collected.I realise that in your case you hadn't been renting for long but many people have been at it for years.The sooner the govt.starts collecting taxes from people who have proved reluctant to pay (not just Brits but wealthy Spanish people), the sooner the country will get back on its feet and the rest of us will have some of hope of paying reasonable taxes and collecting a pension.
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 14:06
The inspectors got all the details from your admin company who run your complex in Tenerife, so they have every owners details and U.K. address. They have the power to get these details from your administrator.
a very well known lawyer who was asked about this by a owner said if true it would breach the data act if they did not have a court order. Also the fines for no claims books would, he says fall at the 1st appeal as if its not possible to obtain one, its not possible to be fined for not having one. He said it would be like giving a fine to a prositute for not having one, as they are also running a business.
Jimmyhow
25-11-2011, 14:12
By the way I’m not just a whingeing Brit who is bleating because I’ve been fined because I haven’t.
I want to be legal, I want to pay tax on my income, I want to pay a pool attendant and a 24 hour receptionist etc. etc. but a stupid unenforceable (so far) law is preventing me from doing so.
I love the country, the island and most of its people and do not want to disrespect it either.
The one good thing out of all of this is that the law may eventually be changed to allow more touristic complexes and more legal beds and I would be happy to pay for any of the above on that basis and sleep much easier at night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Added after 5 minutes:
a very well known lawyer who was asked about this by a owner said if true it would breach the data act if they did not have a court order. Also the fines for no claims books would, he says fall at the 1st appeal as if its not possible to obtain one, its not possible to be fined for not having one. He said it would be like giving a fine to a prositute for not having one, as they are also running a business.
If true????
Amateurish - in my own personal opinion of course!!!!!!
Wonder what they'll try next?
The amusement goes on.....
You are the Government of a country, so you make laws - good or bad, you make laws.
In 1995 you pass the letting law (currently under discussion). Without having every word translated it would be impossible to say for certain, but I'd suggest it is highly likely that, if as part of this law you were empowering yourselves to regulate the letting "industry" you would empower yourself to having an absolute right to obtain certain data - specifically in this case, the absolute right to request full contact details of property owners from Administrators of complexes.
In any event, as the Government you also have access to other sources of information as to who owns what. The Padron, the Land registery, NIE and Residencia data and so on and so on.
It would be a very silly Government who passed a law on letting and forgot to give itself the powers to impliment it.
The problem though is one of the testing of the law. To a great extent it is untested, certainly on the issues we have been discussing here, but the full testing of this or any other law will be a long and very drawn out process and those that do feel there is an injustice will need massively deep pockets in order to fund the legal process required to test the law - with no disrespect intended, I doubt anyone on this forum would be in the position to do so.
As others have said, it seems that the best way forward for those who have been fined would be to stall the process through an appeal, but prepare yourselves to put your hands in your pockets in the end, pay the fine and treat it as an experience. Those yet to be fined, and especially those who have only recently started to break the law need to make their decisions accordingly.
I honestly don't think Data Protection laws will save you.
Peterrayner
25-11-2011, 14:48
The amusement goes on.....
You are the Government of a country, so you make laws - good or bad, you make laws.
In 1995 you pass the letting law (currently under discussion). Without having every word translated it would be impossible to say for certain, but I'd suggest it is highly likely that, if as part of this law you were empowering yourselves to regulate the letting "industry" you would empower yourself to having an absolute right to obtain certain data - specifically in this case, the absolute right to request full contact details of property owners from Administrators of complexes.
In any event, as the Government you also have access to other sources of information as to who owns what. The Padron, the Land registery, NIE and Residencia data and so on and so on.
It would be a very silly Government who passed a law on letting and forgot to give itself the powers to impliment it.
The problem though is one of the testing of the law. To a great extent it is untested, certainly on the issues we have been discussing here, but the full testing of this or any other law will be a long and very drawn out process and those that do feel there is an injustice will need massively deep pockets in order to fund the legal process required to test the law - with no disrespect intended, I doubt anyone on this forum would be in the position to do so.
As others have said, it seems that the best way forward for those who have been fined would be to stall the process through an appeal, but prepare yourselves to put your hands in your pockets in the end, pay the fine and treat it as an experience. Those yet to be fined, and especially those who have only recently started to break the law need to make their decisions accordingly.
I honestly don't think Data Protection laws will save you.
Glad you find it funny :(
The only other comment is that the Data Protection Act was I understand intigated well after the Letting Laws so it is perhaps unlikely that he Letting Laws would include anything to circumvent them. The lawyer seems to think that anyaction to obtained personal data without a court order would be out of order.
Hi, new to forum. Seems to me reading these posts theres a lot of people with ilegal lets that were happy to take tax free money in rentals. Now, imagine, if you had a business in Britain, and you quoted £3000 for laying a driveway. By the time you arrived to do the job, you discovered a cowboy builder, had sneaked in, and done the job for £2000 cash.
Would you shop this person to the tax man, if you had their details?? Knowing this person had no health and safety cover, & no public liability insurance.
This is similar to whats been ocurring in Tenerife with ilegal lettings. Ask yourself this - What would you do if somebody's child, staying in your ilegally let apartment, fell through the window/electricuted themselves/ drown in your swimming pool with no lifeguard to save them. Just a couple of scenarios that could happen, god willing never will, but if it did, what do you think the Canarian Government would do?
Before you reply, now imagine that child was yours. What you you do to the owner of that ilegally let apartment.
Big diference between amusement and funny.
Anyway, get your flight booked for the meeting, as should anyone else affected. Could be your chance to vent your splean(s)
delderek
25-11-2011, 14:56
I would recommend that everyone has a look at the latest news from Janet ********
http://www.*************.com/
Use the name where the filter has blocked it
A public meeting is being arranged.
That's a brilliant way of rounding up the baddies. Hold a meeting. Let's face it, nearly everyone there will be "illegal"..:laugh:
http://www.*************.com/
Illegal holiday-let inspections and fines situation (continued)
Update 25 November: There is to be a public meeting on the 15th December in south Tenerife. It is being held by the Minister of Tourism and the Inspectorate as the public information part of the Government campaign against illegal letting. I will confirm the time and place as soon as possible, but can say for the moment that it will be in the general Adeje area. It is important that people attend not just to hear from the horses’ mouths the information as it appears in these posts, but also to convey to the Authorities the strength of feeling against the enforcement of this legislation. This will not intrinsically have any real or immediate effect, but will be useful background to the lobbying efforts to persuade the Government to rescind or amend the law. The public meeting will be held in Spanish, but an English translator will be present.
With regard to the fines that have been, and continue to be, levied, there are presently 7,000 cases in various stages of process. That is not a mistype for 700: I mean 7,000. These fines have been levied on owners all across the Canaries, on every island.
I have poor news with regard to the six month limit after which the fines were thought to lapse. Whether we call it misinterpretation in the first place, or an evolution of the Government’s view, the six months is (at least now) being taken as the time within which the Government must make its first response to an appeal, rather than the period within which the whole process must be resolved. There is said to be no chance that those who are approaching the six month limit will find themselves free of the process.
I can confirm that the BOC only records those fines which have been returned or not delivered. The wording in the Boletín, however, is that which is contained in the actual official documentation: the letter notifications are merely summaries. This means that the fines are being imposed, technically, for commercial letting administrative failures, i.e. not having notices in apartments, not having a complaints book, etc. This is in large part a mechanism to streamline the inspectors’ work, because this “offence” also covers those apartments which are already touristic, but being let illegally by not going through the onsite agent. By definition, residential apartments cannot have this paperwork, so it covers them too. There are some variations in the wording, necessarily, because not every case is identical, but it is categorically stressed that the specific wording is unimportant. The fines are for “letting in an illegal manner”, however defined. There is no chance that an appeal based on the technicalities of wording will be successful, and there are Court precedents for this. The Government is fully confident in this respect.
In terms of practicalities, the fines are levied on the owner, not the property. If the fine is unpaid, it will be registered against the property. If the property has changed hands, then the fine will remain as levied against the person, and cannot be registered against the property. The Government intends to use an existing mechanism which utilises the reciprocal arrangements between the Hacienda and the Inland Revenue to pursue the case against the individual should it become impossible to register an unpaid fine against the property. This means, in short, that they are going to go after owners in the UK if they have sold up here before the fine was registered against their property. If multiple fines are imposed to the point where the total amount fined exceeds the value of the property (value as determined by the tax authorities), then the Government will undertake repossession measures.
I hope you had Janet's permission to do that - and isn't it about time this place stopped being so silly with it's filters ??
I bet Jim (Bored in Scotland) just lost a load in his pants
I hope you had Janet's permission to do that - and isn't it about time this place stopped being so silly with it's filters ??
No - did you have permission to mention her name? lol.
Jimmyhow
25-11-2011, 15:19
Governments are NOT above the law, particularly European law. We all know of cases on the news where the UK govt. has been found guilty of one offence or another by Brussels and the Data Protection Act is clearly there to stop “big brother” from violating our human rights and confidentiality. If the offence under data protection has occurred after the Act was put on statute it is an offence regardless of when the “illegal lettings” law was passed.
I do agree that each person will have to weigh up whether to pay the fine or appeal depending on their own personal circumstances but hopefully delaying tactics will buy time until a solution that satisfies all parties is found.
delderek
25-11-2011, 15:19
I hope you had Janet's permission to do that - and isn't it about time this place stopped being so silly with it's filters ??
Yes it is well overdue.
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 15:22
I hope you had Janet's permission to do that - and isn't it about time this place stopped being so silly with it's filters ??
You are the owners of a forum, so you make laws - good or bad, you make laws. If you don't like the rules you know what to do :laugh:
delderek
25-11-2011, 15:24
Anyone done the maths, if average fine 18000 euros, makes a total of 126 million, so far
No - did you have permission to mention her name? lol.
Who?
J.a.[/COLOR]n.e.t..A.n.s.c.o.m.b.e. ?
Hi Carolethatch
I am aware that the administrators of the complex have provided details of owners and UK addresses (neither of which were available on my ad by the way) but surely they would need to marry up 2 items of info in order to prove their case. Unless they have knocked on my apartment door and obtained a written statement from 1 of my "illegal tenants" the only other place they could have got the info is the website. Additionally they may yet prove to have the relevant authority to do so but I doubt it. Surely the burden of proof lies with them.
It is not the only defence either just something I decided to explore a little last night.
Hi Fonica
Sorry I thought I had admitted to feeling stupid because of my actions but I am quite within my rights to appeal an inappropriate fine. Would you if you received one?
My thoughts on the authorities are a personal opinion only and may prove to be totally false but the fact that the law has been challenged in the European courts and said to be valid and they have yet to enforce it successfully despite numerous attempts says otherwise. The date of the offences on the most recent fines was 6/10/2010 i.e. over 12 months ago and now for not having the correct complaints procedure in place. Why would the apartments need a complaints procedure unless they were illegally letting in the 1st place? Again can they prove this if so via the website?
Hi Nelson
I agree the banter is good and I have got a lot of useful info from the posts as I said before.
You can count on my future support even though I haven’t been fined - YET
the way this would be proved in the uk I think would be totally different. In the uk you are inocent until proven guilty. In the uk you would have to have a situation where the authorities had actually made and paid for the illegal booking. The mere advertising of the apartment would not be proof in the uk that a crime had taken place. In the uk they might also lay themselves open to entrapment if they asked for the booking , as they would need to , to prove your illegal letting.
in the uk you are not fined and then you start appealing, you go to court and if you loose only then is a sentance passed. even with with fixed penanalties you have the right to not pay and take it to court.
I am not even going to say anything more about proper service in spain as compares with the uk.
at the end of the there are diferences both good and bad with the different legal systems.
without wanting to mention any former spanish governments here too much , you can, I think see when you compare the two systems, which country has for 1000 years been the driving force of world development towards liberal democracy and individual freedom, and which country alligned itself with the greatest monstor this planet has ever seen not that long ago.
our two countries have travelled very diferent roads to get to our present day legal systems.
churnlobster
25-11-2011, 15:39
the way this would be proved in the uk I think would be totally different. In the uk you are inocent until proven guilty. In the uk you would have to have a situation where the authorities had actually made and paid for the illegal booking. The mere advertising of the apartment would not be proof in the uk that a crime had taken place. In the uk they might also lay themselves open to entrapment if they asked for the booking , as they would need to , to prove your illegal letting.
in the uk you are not fined and then you start appealing, you go to court and if you loose only then is a sentance passed. even with with fixed penanalties you have the right to not pay and take it to court.
at the end of the there are diferences both good and bad with the different legal systems.
without wanting to mention any former spanish governments here too much , you can, I think see when you compare the two systems, which country has for 1000 years been the driving force of world development towards liberal democracy and individual freedom, and which country alligned itself with the greatest monstor this planet has ever seen not that long ago.
our two countries have travelled very diferent roads to get to our present day legal systems.
I don't know why you keep comparing the UK, This issue is NOT in the UK it is in the Canary Islands. If you want British justice then buy an apartment in the UK and rent it to holiday makers......
5 minutes[/i]:
Also the fines for no claims books would, he says fall at the 1st appeal as if its not possible to obtain one, its not possible to be fined for not having one. He said it would be like giving a fine to a prositute for not having one, as they are also running a business.
It's not impossible to get the necessary paperwork though as long as you are legally entitled to let out your property.
Peterrayner
25-11-2011, 15:53
Anyone done the maths, if average fine 18000 euros, makes a total of 126 million, so far
and thsats just owners nit including the agencies who have received fines.
read the thread, I am telling someone that the syatems are different. Both are ultimatley subject to europeon law. remember what I said yesday, saif gadafi is in holland for his crimes , he commited them in Africa.
read the thread, I am telling someone that the syatems are different. Both are ultimatley subject to europeon law. remember what I said yesday, saif gadafi is in holland for his crimes , he commited them in Africa.
Yeah, the inspectors found him hiding in your apartment....probably him that grassed you up..:laugh:
I have noticed several references to this breaking the Data Protection Laws.
As far as I remember most EU countries have very similar Data Protection Laws and in the UK it is certainly not a breach of the DP Law to release some personal data to anyone with a legal requirement to access it as part of an investigation into a possible or actual criminal activity.
Extracted from the ICO website
Data Protection Good Practice Note
Releasing information to prevent or detect crime
This good practice note explains what you need to consider when you are asked to release personal information because it is needed to prevent or detect a crime, or catch and prosecute a suspect. It is intended as a guide for organisations that do not normally receive requests of this kind.
Does the Data Protection Act 1998 stop me from releasing this personal information?
No. There is an exemption in the Data Protection Act 1998 (the Act) that allows you to give out personal information for these purposes (Section 29 – Crime and Taxation), but there are limits on what you can release.
Who might ask me to release personal information under this exemption?
The police are most likely to ask you to release personal information under this exemption. However, you may get requests from other organisations that can rely upon this exemption because they have a crime prevention or law enforcement function, for example, the Department for Work and Pensions – Benefit Fraud Section. For the sake of clarity, in this note we will continue to refer to releasing information to the police.
What personal information can I release under this exemption?
The exemption does not cover the disclosure of all personal information, in all circumstances. It only allows you to release personal information for the stated purposes and only if not releasing it would be likely to prejudice (that is, significantly harm) any attempt by police to prevent crime or catch a suspect.
Added after 7 minutes:
read the thread, I am telling someone that the syatems are different. Both are ultimatley subject to europeon law. remember what I said yesday, saif gadafi is in holland for his crimes , he commited them in Africa.
He might be in Europe but he won't be tried under any EU laws, he will be tried at the International Court in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
I have noticed several references to this breaking the Data Protection Laws.
As far as I remember most EU countries have very similar Data Protection Laws and in the UK it is certainly not a breach of the DP Law to release some personal data to anyone with a legal requirement to access it as part of an investigation into a possible or actual criminal activity.
Extracted from the ICO website
Data Protection Good Practice Note
Releasing information to prevent or detect crime
This good practice note explains what you need to consider when you are asked to release personal information because it is needed to prevent or detect a crime, or catch and prosecute a suspect. It is intended as a guide for organisations that do not normally receive requests of this kind.
Does the Data Protection Act 1998 stop me from releasing this personal information?
No. There is an exemption in the Data Protection Act 1998 (the Act) that allows you to give out personal information for these purposes (Section 29 – Crime and Taxation), but there are limits on what you can release.
Who might ask me to release personal information under this exemption?
The police are most likely to ask you to release personal information under this exemption. However, you may get requests from other organisations that can rely upon this exemption because they have a crime prevention or law enforcement function, for example, the Department for Work and Pensions – Benefit Fraud Section. For the sake of clarity, in this note we will continue to refer to releasing information to the police.
What personal information can I release under this exemption?
The exemption does not cover the disclosure of all personal information, in all circumstances. It only allows you to release personal information for the stated purposes and only if not releasing it would be likely to prejudice (that is, significantly harm) any attempt by police to prevent crime or catch a suspect.
Added after 7 minutes:
He might be in Europe but he won't be tried under any EU laws, he will be tried at the International Court in The Hague for crimes against humanity.
of course , but i am just pointing out that this matter will ultimatley be decided in a europeon court not a spanish court, thats usually when someone on here says , you broke the law of spain stop moaning , off to the bull ring with you , you deserve whats coming because you broke the law of spain, which is always correct in the first place ,and so why would anyone have the cheek to go about breaking it.
Jimmyhow
25-11-2011, 16:54
I originally posted details of a possible breach of Data Protection legislation under #1818 see below:-
"Additionally, how have the inspectors obtained their information? I spent most of last night reading the terms and conditions of the site I used to advertise on (we removed our advert in June - too late by all accounts!!!!) and the upshot is that "personal data" recorded on the site can only be used for "advertising or renting of property". Any other use is prohibited (including litigation - which is mentioned in the terms & conditions) without the prior written consent of the site owners - Data Protection law anybody? I e-mailed the site last night and await their reply with great interest."
I have now had an e mail back stating the Canarian Tourist Board definitely didn't apply for permission to use personal information for litigation purposes. The extract from the ICO website states they can release the information but the website owner says they need written permission to extract the info - a moot point I know which can only be clarified in court at great personal expense no doubt!!!
Surely with regard to data protection the onus would lie with the people who hold the data, not the people who are asking for it? Or have i got that wrong?
of course , but i am just pointing out that this matter will ultimatley be decided in a europeon court not a spanish court, thats usually when someone on here says , you broke the law of spain stop moaning , off to the bull ring with you , you deserve whats coming because you broke the law of spain, which is always correct in the first place ,and so why would anyone have the cheek to go about breaking it.
You need to check your facts.
The International Court for Justice in the Hague is run by the United Nations and has nothing to do with the EU other than that every country in the EU is an independent member of the UN.
See the extract below
The ICJ is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations, one of six principal organs in the U.N. The court was established by the U.N. in 1945 and began operations in 1946. It is the successor to the former Permanent Court of International Justice. The ICJ is also referred to as the “World Court.”
The court exclusively hears disputes between sovereign nations. Individuals cannot bring claims or be the subject of claims in proceedings before the ICJ.
All members of the U.N. are automatically parties to the court’s statute, which is incorporated into the U.N. Charter. However, each nation must give consent for the ICJ to hear a particular dispute. A state may consent to jurisdiction in three ways: (1) by the terms of an international treaty, (2) by a special agreement to submit the matter for decision, or (3) through submission of reciprocal declarations.
The court decides “contentious” disputed matters and also issues advisory opinions. Advisory opinions may be requested by administrative organs and specialized agencies of the U.N.
The Peace Palace in The Hague (Netherlands), where the ICJ has its seat, houses one of the world’s largest public libraries on public international law, and it hosts The Hague Academy of International Law. The Peace Palace is owned and administered by the Carnegie Foundation.
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 17:05
Surely with regard to data protection the onus would lie with the people who hold the data, not the people who are asking for it? Or have i got that wrong?
yes, the point made was any person ''giving'' out this infomation would be in breach, administrator or advertising site.
Sundowner
25-11-2011, 17:07
read the thread, I am telling someone that the syatems are different. Both are ultimatley subject to europeon law. remember what I said yesday, saif gadafi is in holland for his crimes , he commited them in Africa.
I think that if you check your facts, you will find Saif Gaddafi is in fact in Libya and will be tried there!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8910704/Libya-Saif-al-Islam-Gaddafi-could-be-put-on-trial-in-two-months.html
I hope you had Janet's permission to do that - and isn't it about time this place stopped being so silly with it's filters ??
I have just been in touch with Janet and she has kindly given permission for use of her report.
The original is on her website at www.janet ********.com (no space in the name - we'll work on those filters :))
yes , the gadafi court is the international court, I know, but the spanish and english law ends up at europe.
the un court in the hague is for war criminals like hitler , mussolini and franco, ooopps I ahve mentioned the war again,
I originally posted details of a possible breach of Data Protection legislation under #1818 see below:-
"Additionally, how have the inspectors obtained their information? I spent most of last night reading the terms and conditions of the site I used to advertise on (we removed our advert in June - too late by all accounts!!!!) and the upshot is that "personal data" recorded on the site can only be used for "advertising or renting of property". Any other use is prohibited (including litigation - which is mentioned in the terms & conditions) without the prior written consent of the site owners - Data Protection law anybody? I e-mailed the site last night and await their reply with great interest."
I have now had an e mail back stating the Canarian Tourist Board definitely didn't apply for permission to use personal information for litigation purposes. The extract from the ICO website states they can release the information but the website owner says they need written permission to extract the info - a moot point I know which can only be clarified in court at great personal expense no doubt!!!
Under the UK Data Protection Laws, there is a specific exemption on the person holding the data which allows them to release it
See my post 1858 regarding Releasing Information to prevent or detect a crime
I think that if you check your facts, you will find Saif Gaddafi is in fact in Libya and will be tried there!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8910704/Libya-Saif-al-Islam-Gaddafi-could-be-put-on-trial-in-two-months.html
And even if they send him to the Hague, he won't be tried under EU law, he'll be tried under International Law on behalf of the UN
correct, he wanted to end up in the hague , his first choice , as they would not hang him there , max penalty life , in libya he may hang or just be taken to the bull ring and be shot, o no sorry the bull ring executions happen in another country somewhere
seanocelt
25-11-2011, 17:34
Janet's latest post is truly brutal and quotes seven thousand fines issued (7,0000!!!) and little chance of "loophole "appeals. It really looks much more serious now.
yes, the point made was any person ''giving'' out this infomation would be in breach, administrator or advertising site.
See my post 1858 - under the UK DP Laws, there is a specific exemption which allows the release to anyone trying to investigate or prove a criminal act.
Janet's latest post is truly brutal and quotes seven thousand fines issued (7,0000!!!) and little chance of "loophole "appeals. It really looks much more serious now.
Maybe the doubting Thomases will wake up now and start to believe that the authorities are really serious about enforcing this now.
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 17:45
See my post 1859 - under the UK DP Laws, there is a specific exemption which allows the release to anyone trying to investigate or prove a criminal act.
Maybe the doubting Thomases will wake up now and start to believe that the authorities are really serious about enforcing this now.
my sister works for a council housing department and they are asked many times everyday for information. The only time it is given out is to the police (with a court order) or a court appointed officer. Its like getting blood from a stone as they are terrified of being sued.
Surely with regard to data protection the onus would lie with the people who hold the data, not the people who are asking for it? Or have i got that wrong?
See my post 1858
Under the UK DP Laws, there is a specific exemption which allows the release to anyone trying to investigate or prove a criminal act.
Peterrayner
25-11-2011, 17:46
Maybe the doubting Thomases will wake up now and start to believe that the authorities are really serious about enforcing this now.
I always thought they were serious back in late 2010 when the new inspections (and new inspectors) were discussed in the Canarian Parliment and reported in the local serious press.
I did hope they were posting sufficient warning at that timeand like unregistered owners on tourisitc sites they would allow some latitiude if residential owners removed ads.
I always thought they were serious back in late 2010 when the new inspections (and new inspectors) were discussed in the Canarian Parliment and reported in the local serious press.
I did hope they were posting sufficient warning at that timeand like unregistered owners on tourisitc sites they would allow some latitiude if residential owners removed ads.
I think the majority of people on this thread accepted that but there still seem to be a lot who are still in denial.
Added after 3 minutes:
my sister works for a council housing department and they are asked many times everyday for information. The only time it is given out is to the police (with a court order) or a court appointed officer. Its like getting blood from a stone as they are terrified of being sued.
See the extract below - there is no mention of them needing a court order if they are investigating a possible criminal act
Extracted from the ICO website
Data Protection Good Practice Note
Releasing information to prevent or detect crime
This good practice note explains what you need to consider when you are asked to release personal information because it is needed to prevent or detect a crime, or catch and prosecute a suspect. It is intended as a guide for organisations that do not normally receive requests of this kind.
Does the Data Protection Act 1998 stop me from releasing this personal information?
No. There is an exemption in the Data Protection Act 1998 (the Act) that allows you to give out personal information for these purposes (Section 29 – Crime and Taxation), but there are limits on what you can release.
Who might ask me to release personal information under this exemption?
The police are most likely to ask you to release personal information under this exemption. However, you may get requests from other organisations that can rely upon this exemption because they have a crime prevention or law enforcement function, for example, the Department for Work and Pensions – Benefit Fraud Section. For the sake of clarity, in this note we will continue to refer to releasing information to the police.
Looks like tha data protection avenue is a no go then?
See my post 1858
Under the UK DP Laws, there is a specific exemption which allows the release to anyone trying to investigate or prove a criminal act.
The point I was making Bob was that an earlier complainant was concerned that the inspectors had got his info from somewhere which they maybe shouldn't have (website host for example). But if that was the case the onus would be on the website not the inspectors surely? perhaps I've misread it!
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 18:02
Looks like tha data protection avenue is a no go then?
it was only pointed out that the admins have no right to give out anyones details, it could never be used as a defence.
my sister works for a council housing department and they are asked many times everyday for information. The only time it is given out is to the police (with a court order) or a court appointed officer. Its like getting blood from a stone as they are terrified of being sued.
Two things - firstly this will be the Canarian derrivation of Data Protection laws, and secondly, the inspectors have been empowered by the 1995 law to inspect and do their job. In relation to this job, specifically requesting details of owners from Administrators, they undoubtedly have more Authority than the police or Guaria Civil...
Ain't gonna work
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 18:10
Two things - firstly this will be the Canarian derrivation of Data Protection laws, and secondly, the inspectors have been empowered by the 1995 law to inspect and do their job. In relation to this job, specifically requesting details of owners from Administrators, they undoubtedly have more Authority than the police or Guaria Civil...
Ain't gonna work
whats not going to work????
seanocelt
25-11-2011, 18:20
whats not going to work????
D E N I A L...........aint gonna work.
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 18:24
D E N I A L...........aint gonna work.
whos' denying anything ???
seanocelt
25-11-2011, 18:29
Not yourself, others. Good luck to folks getting /fighting fines etc. I agree a bit with the government/hotel groups issues, but as usual, they have gone the wrong way about things. Pity.
golf birdie
25-11-2011, 18:34
Not yourself, others. Good luck to folks getting /fighting fines etc. I agree a bit with the government/hotel groups issues, but as usual, they have gone the wrong way about things. Pity.
I would appeal until the cows come home as well if I was in their place. Like I wrote on another thread about driving fines, most of the appealed fines get overturned. Thing is only about 1% appeal as most just accept them.
as for the Hotels, most on this island think the best thing for improvement is a name change as they have such bad reviews on trip advisor.
Red Devil
25-11-2011, 22:22
I think some elements of it are very bad - others I agree with.
Good elements:
Health and Safety standards can be enforced
Accountability to an agent - naff apartment and you have someone to make a complaint against
Bad elements:
Only one agent - anti competitive
No control over the amount paid to owners, agent can pay lots or very little
Too little choice for owners on who uses their apartment
Owners should be able to do their own advertising and find their own clients
The law needs to be altered, not done away with. Touristic letting should be zonal. Some complexes should still be classified as purely residential where appropriate but others should have the option. Owners should have to register with a letting agent in the area. But they should be able to choose which one. If they have a rubbish apartment and dont maintain and upgrade it, agents could refuse to take it on. That way, no-one can book it legally through an agent so no-one ends up booking an apartment that is nothing like the photos.
There should be no way for a license holder to stop a property owner putting their own clients in so long as it goes through the license holder for cleaning and they are paid a fair management fee (whatever that may be.) So an owner can be as involved as they like or leave it all in the hands of an agent.
Without being able to do this, it is wide open to abuse.
If you buy on an aparthotel and the management company have 50 of their own apartments (Granada Park for example) and insist owners have to put it with them, then whats to stop them prioritising and filling all of their own properties 52 weeks a year and giving private owners the scraps? So not only is the rate rubbish but the occupancy may also be pretty naff too.
So the system currently in place is open to abuse and needs to be changed to make it a lot fairer to owners and give the agents a valid role to play.
I really didn't intend to get involved again, but CIM has written a sensible post, offering sensible solutions.
The amount of abuse given to owners from some people on here has been quite astonishing!
Let me ask, do you want all residential complexes to be simply for owners, full stop? I am talking in this case about an area I know very well, Oasis del Sur area of Los Cristianos.
Off the top of my head I can think of El Mirador, Chipeque, Dinastia, Port Royale, The Heights, the one facing Dinastia who's name I've forgotten - all "residential", whilst close by the tourist ones are Royal Palm and Castle Harbour, plus the timeshare ones in the area.
Is anyone seriously convinced that all the visitors (who presumably like the area) are going to squeeze into the 2 tourist ones I have mentioned?
What about the Passarella Shopping Centre, Spar, not to mention the bars and shops around El Mirador, who have all sprung up in the last few years to provide a service to these apartment dwellers? Do all those staff become unemployed, rates not paid, staff out of work? Who are all these residents/long term lets who are going to replace the holidaymakers in these apartments- they aren't going to eat out every night or use the expensive, but convenient for visitors, Spar
Do you know of anyone who has bought an apartment on these complexes who seriously thought they would be residential, in the middle of a timeshare area?
Yes, it is the law, but in this instance the law is an ass.
It has even got itself into knots over the years by being unable to enforce it in the past.
This issue is nothing to do with tax or better, safer facilities for the holidaymaker!
The President (or whatever her title) of the Tourist Dept is a past Mr (or Mrs) Big in the Canarian hotel industry and the whole thing is about appeasing the hoteliers because they are shouting the loudest.
Tell me of any modern apartments that have been built in the last 10 years that can be let to tourists? None that I can think of, so the hoteliers can now see where the holidaymakers prefer to stay and so are causing a big fuss.
I bought my apartment 14 years ago, giving the Canarian estate agent full details of my requirements and no, I knew nothing then about residential/touristic, why should I have reason to, I had already told the agent what I needed.
So ...after using a Canarian agent I then used a Canarian solicitor, opened my account in a Canarian bank, insured my property with a Canarian insurance broker and use a Canarian accountant so everyone was compliant in this, as they were for thousands of purchasers.
(Incidentially my Canarian solicitor also assured me it was quite the norm for the price of the apartment I was buying to be shown as a lot less on the Escritura with the rest paid as cash in hand, the seller expected this to happen) so please don't lecture about the dishonesty etc.
Everyone should work together to try to resolve this, for the good of the whole of the tourist industry.
With due respect to Oasis and Loaded for their constructive and helpful input, they are on one side of the fence only and have a vested interest in thinking their way is the only way.
If this law is enforced do you really expect the "swallows", staying for 4-6 weeks at a time in winter (from all over Northern Europe, not just the UK) are going to stay in a 5 star hotel for that period, as the hoteliers want?
Or just imagine there is no longer any room in Los Cris, all the tourist apartments are well and truly booked so the holidaymaker moves to Las Americas/ Costa Adeje, what will they find?
Well there is the Hovima group, managing the apartments in La Pinta, Santa Maria, Club Atlantis, Panorama, to name a few - nothing that can be called modern as such even though they can be made very nice. But of course Hovima really want to persuade you to stay Half or Full Board, again not much choice there, even if you are lucky enough to manage to find any of them willing to take a longer term booking.
Wanting a nice TV in your room, with lots of channels? You aren't going to get one in places like that, they have majority votes at AGMs and they arent going to pay the extra for the larger satellite dish.
Choices for visitors will be a lot less with no incentive for the hotel group owners to modernise the apartments.
I am sure if people could regularise their situation they would happily do so,so there should be encouragement from everyone to have this law changed.
I really didn't intend to get involved again, but CIM has written a sensible post, offering sensible solutions.
The amount of abuse given to owners from some people on here has been quite astonishing!
Let me ask, do you want all residential complexes to be simply for owners, full stop? I am talking in this case about an area I know very well, Oasis del Sur area of Los Cristianos.
Off the top of my head I can think of El Mirador, Chipeque, Dinastia, Port Royale, The Heights, the one facing Dinastia who's name I've forgotten - all "residential", whilst close by the tourist ones are Royal Palm and Castle Harbour, plus the timeshare ones in the area.
Is anyone seriously convinced that all the visitors (who presumably like the area) are going to squeeze into the 2 tourist ones I have mentioned?
What about the Passarella Shopping Centre, Spar, not to mention the bars and shops around El Mirador, who have all sprung up in the last few years to provide a service to these apartment dwellers? Do all those staff become unemployed, rates not paid, staff out of work? Who are all these residents/long term lets who are going to replace the holidaymakers in these apartments- they aren't going to eat out every night or use the expensive, but convenient for visitors, Spar
Do you know of anyone who has bought an apartment on these complexes who seriously thought they would be residential, in the middle of a timeshare area?
Yes, it is the law, but in this instance the law is an ass.
It has even got itself into knots over the years by being unable to enforce it in the past.
This issue is nothing to do with tax or better, safer facilities for the holidaymaker!
The President (or whatever her title) of the Tourist Dept is a past Mr (or Mrs) Big in the Canarian hotel industry and the whole thing is about appeasing the hoteliers because they are shouting the loudest.
Tell me of any modern apartments that have been built in the last 10 years that can be let to tourists? None that I can think of, so the hoteliers can now see where the holidaymakers prefer to stay and so are causing a big fuss.
I bought my apartment 14 years ago, giving the Canarian estate agent full details of my requirements and no, I knew nothing then about residential/touristic, why should I have reason to, I had already told the agent what I needed.
So ...after using a Canarian agent I then used a Canarian solicitor, opened my account in a Canarian bank, insured my property with a Canarian insurance broker and use a Canarian accountant so everyone was compliant in this, as they were for thousands of purchasers.
(Incidentially my Canarian solicitor also assured me it was quite the norm for the price of the apartment I was buying to be shown as a lot less on the Escritura with the rest paid as cash in hand, the seller expected this to happen) so please don't lecture about the dishonesty etc.
Everyone should work together to try to resolve this, for the good of the whole of the tourist industry.
With due respect to Oasis and Loaded for their constructive and helpful input, they are on one side of the fence only and have a vested interest in thinking their way is the only way.
If this law is enforced do you really expect the "swallows", staying for 4-6 weeks at a time in winter (from all over Northern Europe, not just the UK) are going to stay in a 5 star hotel for that period, as the hoteliers want?
Or just imagine there is no longer any room in Los Cris, all the tourist apartments are well and truly booked so the holidaymaker moves to Las Americas/ Costa Adeje, what will they find?
Well there is the Hovima group, managing the apartments in La Pinta, Santa Maria, Club Atlantis, Panorama, to name a few - nothing that can be called modern as such even though they can be made very nice. But of course Hovima really want to persuade you to stay Half or Full Board, again not much choice there, even if you are lucky enough to manage to find any of them willing to take a longer term booking.
Wanting a nice TV in your room, with lots of channels? You aren't going to get one in places like that, they have majority votes at AGMs and they arent going to pay the extra for the larger satellite dish.
Choices for visitors will be a lot less with no incentive for the hotel group owners to modernise the apartments.
I am sure if people could regularise their situation they would happily do so,so there should be encouragement from everyone to have this law changed.
Firstly I will thank you for your comment reference constuctive input and I agree I have a vested interest, you would too if you had invested over £100'000.00 of your own money to build a succesful lettting company in Oasis del Sur, but I am not only on one side of the fence. What I do disagree with is the unfair competition both myself, Loaded and other, decent, registered companies face when we are trying to run businesses legally and find it difficult to compete against individuals privately renting without the massive overheads we have.
I am not against competition as long as it is fair competition. Let the government issue licences to additional complexes and make this a level playing field - at the present time it is not.
I also agree that a few sole letting agents take advantage of the returns given to owners and there are ways this can be resolved but this is maybe a discussion for a diferent forum.
Red Devil
25-11-2011, 23:06
Firstly I will thank you for your comment reference constuctive input and I agree I have a vested interest, you would too if you had invested over £100'000.00 of your own money to build a succesful lettting company in Oasis del Sur, but I am not only on one side of the fence. What I do disagree with is the unfair competition both myself, Loaded and other, decent, registered companies face when we are trying to run businesses legally and find it difficult to compete against individuals privately renting without the massive overheads we have.
I am not against competition as long as it is fair competition. Let the government issue licences to additional complexes and make this a level playing field - at the present time it is not.
I also agree that a few sole letting agents take advantage of the returns given to owners and there are ways this can be resolved but this is maybe a discussion for a diferent forum.
Thanks Oasis, I 100% agree with you. Really a full review of the whole situation is needed by the Tourist Dept - things have changed so much since this law was first introduced many years ago.
you are 100 % correct in what you say. the dark side to this is though, the hotels do not need to worry about all that unemployment and sufering , much of that will be canarian. If they get a small bite of the destroyed apartment market it will be enough to greatly improve their personal business fortunes. They will not themselves worry about the wider island economy impact, they will themselves be enjoying greater occupancy and probabley be able to charge higher rates.
It would not be necesary for them to find beds for all the desplaced apartment tourists, their own fortunes would improve dramatically with just a modest rake off.
The canary government is not adding up the numbers and considering the welfare of all the population on this issue if they go along with this.
We are back in Franco 's spain.
delderek
25-11-2011, 23:21
Dinastia who's name I've forgotten - all "residential", whilst close by the tourist ones are Royal Palm and Castle Harbour, plus the timeshare ones in the area.
Is anyone seriously convinced that all the visitors (who presumably like the area) are going to squeeze into the 2 tourist ones I have mentioned?
No real argument with the main theme of your post, except the reference to the timeshare ones. which are also open to tourists and they all feature in the holiday brochures, so there are more than two places additional tourists can be accomodated.
Only 2 tourist complexes near el mirador?
Royal palm
Castle harbour
Paradise park
Aguamar
Cristian sur
Tenerife sur
Summerland
Aparthotel reveron
Mar y sol
Vic court 1
Vic court 2
Oasis mango
Atlantida
Plus the timeshare ones....
i am a small businessman here in the uk and compete in cutthroat markets, and have done all my life and started with nothing. my apartments are my pleasure and an investment. I run them just to pay there own way, nothing more and price them accordingly.
I accept there is probabley a need for more regulation in the form of eg ,public liabity insurance,but beyond that I will only ever want to run them at cost. your problem is that you are trying to compete with lots of private owners like me who have bought their dream homes and are happy to rent them out just to cover costs.
At the end of the day thats the way things have naturally developed and things change. you can ony do so much to level a playing field like that.
Red Devil
26-11-2011, 00:23
Only 2 tourist complexes near el mirador?
Royal palm
Castle harbour
Paradise park
Aguamar
Cristian sur
Tenerife sur
Summerland
Aparthotel reveron
Mar y sol
Vic court 1
Vic court 2
Oasis mango
Atlantida
Plus the timeshare ones....
I wouldn't class most of them as Oasis del Sur. I was referring to the new residential ones that have sprung up in my area in the last 14 years. I dont think the El Mirador bars etc were built to service any of those that you have mentioned.
in that long list, atlantida is an interesting example. after many years of battling along as a two star flea pit , it collasped 18 months ago.
Are the private renters to blame for this? The place is selling off nicely at 100k ish per apartment as private owners buy them up. soon the atlantida,subject to the curent mess being sorted, could be up to full occupancy again, this time with happy clients in well refurbed apertments. This is what los cristo needs ,with internet ads the old shabby atlantida can be back up running and fully occupied , with tourists again.
many times across the south you see failed hotels /complex,s being sold off and re born as private rented apartments.
Dong confuse Atlantida with sur y sol .... I think Atlantida is still going ok.
Added after 2 minutes:
I wouldn't class most of them as Oasis del Sur. I was referring to the new residential ones that have sprung up in my area in the last 14 years. I dont think the El Mirador bars etc were built to service any of those that you have mentioned.
El mirador bars werent built to service those places despite all except royal palm, oasis mango and castle harbor being closer than dinastia? And oasis mango and castle harbor are adjacent to dinastia!
They might not be classed as "oasis del sur" but they are all less than 2 minutes walk from taylors lounge
Dong confuse Atlantida with sur y sol .... I think Atlantida is still going ok.
Added after 2 minutes:
El mirador bars werent built to service those places despite all except royal palm, oasis mango and castle harbor being closer than dinastia? And oasis mango and castle harbor are adjacent to dinastia!
The owners of Atlantida are desperately trying to offload them with 50% self cert private mortgages and "guaranteed rental" where you have to place it with them, the income offsets the mortgage and you pay the difference for 15 years.
I havent pushed it....
my apartments are my pleasure and an investment. I run them just to pay there own way, nothing more and price them accordingly.
I will only ever want to run them at cost. your problem is that you are trying to compete with lots of private owners like me who have bought their dream homes and are happy to rent them out just to cover costs..
If you'd bought one apartment I'd say fair enough but you bought 2 apartments which means to me that everything you just wrote is horse poo.
I can understand you'd buy an apartment for your use and your families use and then top up the rest with rentals to pay the mortgage or community fees etc.... But by buying two you're getting beyond that excuse and you know really that you bought them to create another source of income and as an investment - If not then what are you some sort of good Samaritan who buys property willy nilly and let's it out for next to nothing as a public service ???? That's really good of you to do that and make the rest of us have work even harder to make our actual jobs work!
I think I might buy a crate of beer and hand the cans out in local bars at a low price just to cover costs etc .... I'm not trying to make any money it's just to save people buying drinks in the bar and i enjoy doing it.
If you'd bought one apartment I'd say fair enough but you bought 2 apartments which means to me that everything you just wrote is horse poo.
I can understand you'd buy an apartment for your use and your families use and then top up the rest with rentals to pay the mortgage or community fees etc.... But by buying two you're getting beyond that excuse and you know really that you bought them to create another source of income and as an investment - If not then what are you some sort of good Samaritan who buys property willy nilly and let's it out for next to nothing as a public service ???? That's really good of you to do that and make the rest of us have work even harder to make our actual jobs work!
I think I might buy a crate of beer and hand the cans out in local bars at a low price just to cover costs etc .... I'm not trying to make any money it's just to save people buying drinks in the bar and i enjoy doing it.
He´s got you there Nelson - haha!
another factode to put to people as we try to second guess the extent of damage to the island economy from this is the level of bookings likely to be lost. when we started we advertised only in uk loical papers. it was expensive. we normally managed 36 weeks per year, april to june being slowest, winter being strongest. for the last 2.5 years, which is the world wide crisis , we have been on the internet. our weeks rented are now 45.
with no advertising and just family and friends who knows? maybe our winter repaeats can amount to 20 weeks at best, thats if we even try to continue. the damage to the islands economy from all this is going to be massive.
lets not forgot also the point that a great many clients are going to be put off coming with all this talk of illegal letting. we could even start to see cancellations and no re booking for next winter.
45 weeks is a lot just to cover costs!
Added after 7 minutes:
i am a small businessman here in the uk and compete in cutthroat markets, and have done all my life and started with nothing. my apartments are my pleasure and an investment. I run them just to pay there own way, nothing more and price them accordingly.
I accept there is probabley a need for more regulation in the form of eg ,public liabity insurance,but beyond that I will only ever want to run them at cost. your problem is that you are trying to compete with lots of private owners like me who have bought their dream homes and are happy to rent them out just to cover costs.
At the end of the day thats the way things have naturally developed and things change. you can ony do so much to level a playing field like that.
Did you forget your post from page 165!
Actually the more I consider Nelsons last post the more i wonder how many people had to sell on Paloma beach in the last few years (2008-2010) when things weren't quite as good..... These people invested into the place because they knew it was legal and would create a good return, then the financial crisis hit and many had to sell. I wonder if they would have had to sell if we could have priced ourselves more in line with what we should have been charging and paying owners even more than we do rather than getting pulled down to the "selling at cost level" that people like Nelson have made us and no doubt others do.
Thanks Nelson, you and your like exacerbated a crisis and made a lot of people sell their dreams. Let's remember that these hotels, aparthotels and legal apartments all come down to money and I theres no money staff get laid off, and the people all the way up face hard times too.
Enjoy your fine - you've earned it.
Nelson, as loaded has just pointed out, your post number 1650, you said you book via internet advertising, you have been booking for 45 weeks of the year. And with 2 apartments? - Sounds more like a business than a cost covering excerise. How would you like someone in the UK to undermine your business by dealing in cash - Thats what seems to be happening here in Tenerife. I've got real sympathy for those people who were sold apartments on residential, and told by the selling agent they could rent out their property, but even then, there should be a limit, i.e. cover your community fees or whatever, say 5 or 6 weeks per year.
If your only covering costs, and are renting out 45 weeks a year, your community fees must be collosal.
BUT, I've got much more sympathy with legitimate agents and owners, who have paid their dues, paid their taxes, and are adhering to the law, AND are having their business eroded by "cash in hand" type transactions. Your choice is either sell the apartments or rent them long lease. A long lease might cover the cost of both apartments comm. fees.
golf birdie
26-11-2011, 11:52
Royal palm
Castle harbour
Paradise park
Aguamar
Cristian sur
Tenerife sur
Summerland
Aparthotel reveron
Mar y sol
Vic court 1
Vic court 2
Oasis mango
Atlantida
I would pay to stay in two of them, the rest I-d pay not to stay.
Ok buts thats just you.
I only drink in taylors or shambles but i accept there are more bars in the area.....
Ok buts thats just you.
I only drink in taylors or shambles but i accept there are more bars in the area.....
Just proves that the bars on El Mirador are not solely reliant on clients from illegal rentals! :laugh::laugh:
Personally I use Harvey's & O'Jangles, both on El Mirador!
Red Devil
26-11-2011, 13:14
Actually the more I consider Nelsons last post the more i wonder how many people had to sell on Paloma beach in the last few years (2008-2010) when things weren't quite as good..... These people invested into the place because they knew it was legal and would create a good return, then the financial crisis hit and many had to sell. I wonder if they would have had to sell if we could have priced ourselves more in line with what we should have been charging and paying owners even more than we do rather than getting pulled down to the "selling at cost level" that people like Nelson have made us and no doubt others do.
Thanks Nelson, you and your like exacerbated a crisis and made a lot of people sell their dreams. Let's remember that these hotels, aparthotels and legal apartments all come down to money and I theres no money staff get laid off, and the people all the way up face hard times too.
Enjoy your fine - you've earned it.
Admit it ... you've just this minute thought of that!!
I really dont know why you are complaining, you keep saying yourself how busy you are and good on you.
Really though, you are out of the zone I have been referring to anyway so you shouldnt be affected one way or the other - some people accept a hill but a view, some people want to be on the level near town. Seriously out of the list you have mentioned I would only stay in Royal Palm or Paloma Beach anyway, the others are hotel orientated, geared up for the 1 - 2 week visitor buying inclusive flights, they aren't interested in an independent traveller wanting a month in the sun.
I was in Beverly Hills timeshare for 12 years before buying so have been in the area 24 years, I know every entrance, every reception (and every loo) of all of them lol
To be honest we have done well. We struggled in 2008/2009 by our own standards but by everyone else's we were doing well.
Now we're doing phenomenally well and we desperately need more apartments to satisfy demand that's seen us full from now until march (bar a week in mid December).
Irrelevant to that : Nelson places are on sur y sol if I'm not mistaken and that's just down the road from us. El mirador has taken business away from the likes of us and further up and around. But the point is that this hasn't just happened on el mirador or sur y sol.... It happens on paloma beach too, costamar, Los Angeles, Parque tropical, playa graciosa, el rincon etc.
I don't mean to pick on Nelson in particular I'm just angry at him and others that hide behind false arguments about how it's all just to cover costs and only friends and family go in etc .... When we all know full well it's a second income and no wonder the hotel groups are piling on the pressure
Red Devil
26-11-2011, 13:51
Truce - I'll send you a drink over when I'm in O'jangles this weekend:)
Truce - I'll send you a drink over when I'm in O'jangles this weekend:)
Favouritism - send me one too (or leave it in with Tom).
Red Devil
26-11-2011, 14:19
Favouritism - send me one too (or leave it in with Tom).
Of course :)
golf birdie
26-11-2011, 14:28
Ok buts thats just you.
I only drink in taylors or shambles but i accept there are more bars in the area.....
my family stay in mirador or dinastia but I accept there are more complexes in the area (but they won't stay in them):cheeky:
Royal palm
Castle harbour
Paradise park
Aguamar
Cristian sur
Tenerife sur
Summerland
Aparthotel reveron
Mar y sol
Vic court 1
Vic court 2
Oasis mango
Atlantida
I would pay to stay in two of them, the rest I-d pay not to stay.
And plenty of people pay to stay in mine and wont stay on another complex just down to personal choice a lot of realy nice well equipped private apartments on Cristian Sur however the hotel chain ones are basic and i personaly would not like to stay in them its hotel chains that should take a look at what there offering.
no straight up, bought the first for our holidays and our future retired long stays. decided to buy the second rather than the alternative investment a uk buy to let.
you should engage brain before sending out posts. if you put down the required mortgage deposit, your rental income at our letting rates will just cover all your expenses, cleaning,repairs,utilities,mortgage payments etc.
therefore you hopefully will end up with a fully paid up property many years in the future after you have repaid your mortgage.
That would be the same with a uk buy to let investment also, rentals hopefully just covering all outgoings.
Therefore I acknowledge that people like us are happy to operate at a cost only basis and that makes for tough competition if you are doing what we do but you need to earn your living from it as well.
also the use of internet advertising ,as I posted some days ago, boosted our bookings by around 9 weeks per apartment per year. That has meant we have kept up with the poor euro rate as it has declined these last couple of years, and things have remained sound for us through the crisis.
You would think that having boosted the island economy so well during the crisis the canary government would be giving us an award.
golf birdie
26-11-2011, 19:11
nelson, if you are not on a wind up please stop digging.
On behalf of the Canarian Government can I thank you so much for looking after us so well these past years.
Such a shame though that, since we didn't actually ask you to help and indeed, as you know, we have laws against doing just what you have been doing, we have now caught up with you.
We would have course liked to have thanked you personally for your assistance and can only apologise for having had to publish your details in the BOC - perhaps, like many other of our kind benefactors you would have preferred to have remained anonymous.
Anyway, now that we have finally met we wonder if you would be so kind as to see your way to forwarding the monies detailed in the BOC to us as quickly as possible since we have a few important bills to pay. We would say that we consider our fees to be reasonable given the potential income you have gained over the last 8 or so years.
Much love and
Kind regards
Cararian Government
Oh. My. God.
Someone please double the fine for gods sake!
If anyone ever asks me why I'm pro 7/1995 I'm just going to give them Nelsons number.
Where did I get it? Aha!
no straight up, bought the first for our holidays and our future retired long stays. decided to buy the second rather than the alternative investment a uk buy to let.
you should engage brain before sending out posts. if you put down the required mortgage deposit, your rental income at our letting rates will just cover all your expenses, cleaning,repairs,utilities,mortgage payments etc.
therefore you hopefully will end up with a fully paid up property many years in the future after you have repaid your mortgage.
That would be the same with a uk buy to let investment also, rentals hopefully just covering all outgoings.
Therefore I acknowledge that people like us are happy to operate at a cost only basis and that makes for tough competition if you are doing what we do but you need to earn your living from it as well.
also the use of internet advertising ,as I posted some days ago, boosted our bookings by around 9 weeks per apartment per year. That has meant we have kept up with the poor euro rate as it has declined these last couple of years, and things have remained sound for us through the crisis.
You would think that having boosted the island economy so well during the crisis the canary government would be giving us an award.
This has to be a wind up, so please people, stop feeding the troll :(
All businesses have to cover costs in Tenerife it cost more to own in a touristic complex they have to have the correct paperwork ect ect ect so have to charge more in the uk someone for example opertating a recycling business also has to have the correct paperwork and charge the competitive rate then comes along transit van man no paperwork not paying tax undercuts legit business!
Added after 15 minutes:
Oh. My. God.
Someone please double the fine for gods sake!
If anyone ever asks me why I'm pro 7/1995 I'm just going to give them Nelsons number.
Where did I get it? Aha! Same place as me!
welshman
26-11-2011, 23:13
Nelson
I hope you declared you un earned income in the UK you could not only fined you got problems in Tenerife you have problems in UK if they gat a wiff of un declared income. As the do have freedom of information regarding tax.?
I felt sorry for you in some way up till now, but if you have not declared income be it legal or illegal in either Tenerife or Uk you deserve what you get. If you declared it in Tenerife at least you would have been paying your taxes and gone some way to contibute to the island that you are exploiting
had it both ways in my life. I have been 1 man band , 1 van man , and i have got to the bigest operator in town with 15 brand new trucks on the road.
the small man is not always the bandit, small firms can get by with less overheads and they can expect lower returns than the big boys.
I have always competed wether big or small on the basis of hard work and top customer service, I have never had to rely on a protectionist anti competitive law. Free markets deliver best , you have often to live and let live.
Nelson
I hope you declared you un earned income in the UK you could not only fined you got problems in Tenerife you have problems in UK if they gat a wiff of un declared income. As the do have freedom of information regarding tax.?
I felt sorry for you in some way up till now, but if you have not declared income be it legal or illegal in either Tenerife or Uk you deserve what you get. If you declared it in Tenerife at least you would have been paying your taxes and gone some way to contibute to the island that you are exploiting
Just a point here about "contributions" to Tenerife.
Anyone buying an apartment here for example 100k would in addition pay at least 10 or 11k on top in fees and taxes.
Add to that any amount to refurb and kit out the place.
In my book that makes Nelsons contribution probably in the region of a quarter million to our economy.
On the subject of tax, the apartments probably dont make profit, so what contribution would be due ?
welshman
27-11-2011, 00:56
I,m not fighting anyones corner but as an accountant and conversant with the workings in UK and Spain. In the uk your comments are probably correct he would have possibly made a loss. In Spain until a few years ago you would have had to pay 24% tax on gross earnings you could not offset any cost against earning.
The law has changed and you can now claim cost against rental income. But only if you get certificate from your tax office in the coountry of residence. Once you do this you are declaring to your own Tax authority that you own property abroad, they will then be looking for declaration from you every year. But even with this in place you can only off set your cost against your rentals per 3 months. If you let 30 days in 90 day quarter you would only be able to off set 33% of fix cost against letting. So you would normally pay a small amount of tax. Plus accountant fee,s
With regards to fee,s there are purchasing cost in all countries, with regard to contribution of the purchase price thats not a price paid to the country that was paid to a developer which he paid tax on any profit. You do not have a right to run a business in another country and not pay what,s due in tax. If he owned in the UK he could not get away with not paying tax. Why do it in another country. If all renters paid their taxes I believe that this problem would not have blown up as big as it has. But with no tax return you can expect the hotels to be kicking up a fuss their under cutting us and not paying tax on their earnings. I,m sure if there was a van man in his village on the dole and moonlighting and taking his business I,m sure he would kick up a fuss.
I think the letting laws are out of date and need to be reveiwed but you must declare legal or illegal thats why we are in the state we are the black economy
Just a point here about "contributions" to Tenerife.
Anyone buying an apartment here for example 100k would in addition pay at least 10 or 11k on top in fees and taxes.
Add to that any amount to refurb and kit out the place.
In my book that makes Nelsons contribution probably in the region of a quarter million to our economy.
On the subject of tax, the apartments probably dont make profit, so what contribution would be due ?
No contribution. See my "giving away beer free" example from a few pages back
:dontknow:
I have been following the thread with interest. All the posts seem to relate to apartments - what about villas, as independant dwellings they are not able to get the complaints books etc so does this make them illegal or legal for letting purposes under the law?
Peterrayner
27-11-2011, 02:18
:dontknow:
I have been following the thread with interest. All the posts seem to relate to apartments - what about villas, as independant dwellings they are not able to get the complaints books etc so does this make them illegal or legal for letting purposes under the law?
illegal I`m afraid. They are refusing touristic registration ATM it would seem hence no compalints book available.
i am a small businessman here in the uk and compete in cutthroat markets, and have done all my life and started with nothing. my apartments are my pleasure and an investment. I run them just to pay there own way, nothing more and price them accordingly.
I accept there is probabley a need for more regulation in the form of eg ,public liabity insurance,but beyond that I will only ever want to run them at cost. your problem is that you are trying to compete with lots of private owners like me who have bought their dream homes and are happy to rent them out just to cover costs.
At the end of the day thats the way things have naturally developed and things change. you can ony do so much to level a playing field like that.
had it both ways in my life. I have been 1 man band , 1 van man , and i have got to the bigest operator in town with 15 brand new trucks on the road.
the small man is not always the bandit, small firms can get by with less overheads and they can expect lower returns than the big boys.
I have always competed wether big or small on the basis of hard work and top customer service, I have never had to rely on a protectionist anti competitive law. Free markets deliver best , you have often to live and let live.
In just 2 days you have gone from a small business man the the biggest in your town!
Seems you either live in a fantasy world or have a bad memory!
Added after 6 minutes:
therefore you hopefully will end up with a fully paid up property many years in the future after you have repaid your mortgage.
You would think that having boosted the island economy so well during the crisis the canary government would be giving us an award.
Basically you will have paid for a propert from money from illegal renting - ever heard of the phrase "Money Laundering"?
And your reward.............. Thank you now please hand over €21'000.00 :laugh:
Peterrayner
27-11-2011, 10:11
I would be interested to know how one of the islands largest developers seems to be able to run several "residential" complexes, Granada Park as 2 star apart-hotels and is advertsing short holiday lettings on a website ???
Charging 85e per night
http://www.ghoteles.com/en/hotels.htm
delderek
27-11-2011, 10:38
I would be interested to know how one of the islands largest developers seems to be able to run several "residential" complexes, Granada Park as 2 star apart-hotels and is advertsing short holiday lettings on a website ???
Charging 85e per night
http://www.ghoteles.com/en/hotels.htm
I am sure many others would be interested as well Peter.
Peterrayner
27-11-2011, 10:46
I am sure many others would be interested as well Peter.
Yes Del about 7000 at least I think.
Added after 3 minutes:
I is being reported on Janet`s web site that owners of villas on Lanzarote are being targeted.
Gomasper are developers so it wouldn't surprise me if when they built the complex they made everyone who bought sign a registration form so they could register as an aparthotel or similar?
Added after 5 minutes:
Peter I can feel one of these coming on:
1851
Angusjim
27-11-2011, 13:51
Gomasper are developers so it wouldn't surprise me if when they built the complex they made everyone who bought sign a registration form so they could register as an aparthotel or similar?
Added after 5 minutes:
Peter I can feel one of these coming on:
1851
Sharon you better check what was signed when you bought your " residential property" you may have to make way for inflateable crocodiles and screaming kids at the pool :wave::whistle:
to be the biggest operator in my town in what I do involves the trucks I state and 25 employees. I dont rate myself as Richard branson due to that.
My mum died many years ago, but her sister my Aunty, paid me the greatest compliment, when she said to me a few months back, that I had never changed all my life despite my sucess.
I started from a humble but honest home, and I certainly do not big myself up or forget where I started from,
Ecky Thump
27-11-2011, 21:10
to be the biggest operator in my town in what I do involves the trucks I state and 25 employees. I dont rate myself as Richard branson due to that.
My mum died many years ago, but her sister my Aunty, paid me the greatest compliment, when she said to me a few months back, that I had never changed all my life despite my sucess.
I started from a humble but honest home, and I certainly do not big myself up or forget where I started from,
Your post, must be the best example of a post being Off Topic as I have ever seen.:confused:
sorry if I have strayed of topic, regular readers will probabley follow my point, at times on here the personal attacks / bullying seem to obscure the debate as well. Let me know if I start down that road
Ecky Thump
27-11-2011, 21:24
sorry if I have strayed of topic, regular readers will probabley follow my point, at times on here the personal attacks / bullying seem to obscure the debate as well. Let me know if I start down that road
You did and are, as I am now, OFF TOPIC!
churnlobster
27-11-2011, 21:34
Its getting a bit like X Factor now, cant win on talent try the sympathy approach.
Looks like another owner from Sur y Sol has been notified on todays boletin. Have seen his leaflets on many lamp posts.
The Clampetts town continues....
x
he owns 3 apartments on sur y sol, no excuses for him I'm afraid.
jogger321
28-11-2011, 12:53
I'm happy to start another thread on this but have included it under this one..
I'm wondering what effect these fines are going to have on the prices of some of these complexes that all though officially "residential" have been widespread used as holiday complexes illegally.
Assuming this strict enforecement is here to stay it obviously changes the relationship between the owner and the apartment. If as I suspect there are many that are mortgaged based on the repayments coming primarily from short term rentals this changes the dynamics. I am aware that long lets are allowed but then this makes it difficult for the owner to visit and use as their own occasional holiday home.
Will this mean that the market will shortly be flooded with properties.
It also occurred to me that its highly likely many of these owners who have received 18k fines are unlikely to have funds lying around to pay the fines...what then?
sunchaser
28-11-2011, 12:53
he owns 3 apartments on sur y sol, no excuses for him I'm afraid.
Ouch thats gotta hurt,has anyone else noticed a decline in se alquila notices.
Peterrayner
28-11-2011, 12:59
It also occurred to me that its highly likely many of these owners who have received 18k fines are unlikely to have funds lying around to pay the fines...what then?
I am advised that fines be lodged as a debt on the property which will then to be cleared before a sale can be completed.
Added after 2 minutes:
Looks like another owner from Sur y Sol has been notified on todays boletin. Have seen his leaflets on many lamp posts.
Looks like they have been trying to contact him for a while (inspection date 20th September 2010) without success so hence the boletin I presume.
bonitatime
28-11-2011, 13:04
The other option for all these people with more than one apartment on residential properties is to long term rent them.
golf birdie
28-11-2011, 13:06
where's the demand for these long lets coming from?
jogger321
28-11-2011, 13:19
where's the demand for these long lets coming from?
...Well all these inspectors will need some places to stay
The demand for long lets or lack of them is a separate issue and a separate concern.
golf birdie
28-11-2011, 13:54
going back a bit to the question of proof of holiday rentals. If they found an add on say, owners direct and took that as proof of ilegal rentals and without further inquiries issued the fine. What would happen if the owner siad in his/her appeal they were advertising for lets of 6 months and over? How could they prove this was wrong?
Probably because the advert is/was priced in weeks??
Nobody uses Owners Direct and the like for long term lets and you'd have a damned hard job arguing that one I fear.
It seems to me that pretty much every potential escape route has been covered
boredinscotland
28-11-2011, 14:04
Apartments for sale prices will drop in El Mirador and Dinastia aswell as all the other 'illegal' complexes, I know of one in Dinastia reduced by 50K this week and others will have to follow in order for a sale,,I think I sold up at the right time and for right money,,give it a year and see what apartments are selling for then. Legal complexes prices will stay about the same even with the recession. 'Illegal' apartment complexes being sold just now are looking for buyers that wish to relocate from wherever and not many of them about
golf birdie
28-11-2011, 14:04
Probably because the advert is/was priced in weeks??
Nobody uses Owners Direct and the like for long term lets and you'd have a damned hard job arguing that one I fear.
It seems to me that pretty much every potential escape route has been covered
I know of plenty of old folk who use that site for their winter stays, some do really stay 6 months.
[QUOTE=Peterrayner;119570]I am advised that fines be lodged as a debt on the property which will then to be cleared before a sale can be completed.
Added after 2 minutes:
Te fines will only be attached to the property once due process has been completed and fine not paid giving a short peroid where the property can be sold and the fine will not show up on searches of course actually selling and finding a buyer could be difficult if the market is sudenly flooded with poeple who need to sell because they cant holiday let. David
I know of plenty of old folk who use that site for their winter stays, some do really stay 6 months.
That may be the case, but when the property is priced in weeks you would have a tough job convincing anyone that you only do long term letting and if you did only do long term letting your pages would make that clear.
There is also the contract issue which I believe you would need to be able to show to demonstrate the letting period, and your only actual proof would be to show boarding cards for your clients to prove the dates.
golf birdie
28-11-2011, 14:17
That may be the case, but when the property is priced in weeks you would have a tough job convincing anyone that you only do long term letting and if you did only do long term letting your pages would make that clear.
There is also the contract issue which I believe you would need to be able to show to demonstrate the letting period, and your only actual proof would be to show boarding cards for your clients to prove the dates.
Who keeps boarding cards?? Contract? Only if the apartment was let, let them prove it was let as to me the they are the ones who should be offering the proof.
Who keeps boarding cards?? Contract? Only if the apartment was let, let them prove it was let as to me the they are the ones who should be offering the proof.
Precisely my point - how would you prove your let was a long term one without the necessary proof??
jogger321
28-11-2011, 14:20
going back a bit to the question of proof of holiday rentals. If they found an add on say, owners direct and took that as proof of ilegal rentals and without further inquiries issued the fine. What would happen if the owner siad in his/her appeal they were advertising for lets of 6 months and over? How could they prove this was wrong?
Wayback machine (see my earlier post)..archive of all web pages over time...Look at availability of apartment..any gaps or lets of a week would show it being used for holiday lettings.
If they wanted to be really thorough they could use the way back machine on holiday lettings/owners abroad going back five years ..lots of names and telephone numbers even from some people who post on this thread !
A thought has just occured to me on this - Once the fines are been distributed, appeals have been processed etc, do you think the Tourist Inspectors will hand all their findings to the Spanish Tax Authority? Is there a danger that once already fined for ilegal letting, owners might then be fined for tax evasion. After all one person has admitted they have two apartments, and with internet booking, have rented out for 45 weeks per year. So 2 x 45 equals 90, say they've owned them for 5 years, 5 x 90 equals 450. Lets say they charge 200 euros per week, equals 90,000 euros in total. Thats a lot of money tax free, if thats the case. Therefore you might get a massive tax bill as well as the original fine for ilegal letting. Plus of course back tax will be charged with interest.
I'd be worried.
I would say that whilst we are told this is all down to illegal letting rather than tax issues, the fact that the reciprical arrangements between the Hacienda and HMRC will be used to reclaim fines from absent persons, there is a really good chance!
Should of changed your Hob/oven and water heater to GAS
Peterrayner
28-11-2011, 15:03
That may be the case, but when the property is priced in weeks you would have a tough job convincing anyone that you only do long term letting and if you did only do long term letting your pages would make that clear.
There is also the contract issue which I believe you would need to be able to show to demonstrate the letting period, and your only actual proof would be to show boarding cards for your clients to prove the dates.
It would appear that the inspectorate have taken the existence of apartment letting websites AND the bookings / availablity pages into account when deeming that the activity breeches the law or at least that is what they are stating on the Boletins.
Havent seen any evidence (yet) that this current investigation goes back beyond last year with the majority of Boletins and letters being posted staing the investigated from about the end of September 2010.
Tom & Sharon
28-11-2011, 16:35
Should of changed your Hob/oven and water heater to GAS
:doh: :laugh:
Looks like another owner from Sur y Sol has been notified on todays boletin. Have seen his leaflets on many lamp posts.
Also in today's Boletin, another Dinistia fine, and a (possibly Belgian) person fined 7.200 for refusing to cooperate with the Inspectorate, even when the Local Police were present BOC-A-2011-234-6219.
EDIT - I've removed the initials re Dinistia, but just thought I would google the name along with "Dinistia" and an old thread came up on the Forum from someone saying they had been mugged and who knew a phone number for said owner and also how to contact her cleaner to get a new set of keys ... kind of reinforces the point about a 24 Reception :(
Also in today's Boletin, another Dinistia fine, and a (possibly Belgian) person fined 7.200 for refusing to cooperate with the Inspectorate, even when the Local Police were present BOC-A-2011-234-6219.
EDIT - I've removed the initials re Dinistia, but just thought I would google the name along with "Dinistia" and an old thread came up on the Forum from someone saying they had been mugged and who knew a phone number for said owner and also how to contact her cleaner to get a new set of keys ... kind of reinforces the point about a 24 Reception :(
Think it's Ocean apartments (Apartamento Océano) - but do not know where they are!
Agree with the 24 hour bit - totally. But others on here recon their mate who illegally collects them from the airport, cleans without declaring any income and maybe in the boozer when there is a situation think it is acceptable!
In the past .... someone very kindly posted a link to a government site listing all complexes in Adeje that hold touristic licences. I've trawled through for literally ages and can't find it now!!! Would anyone know the link I'm looking for?
Www.webtenerife.co.Uk is the site I think you're after but remember it's a paid site so not every tourist accommodation is listed on there as they don't all want to pay for the listing
Www.webtenerife.co.Uk is the site I think you're after but remember it's a paid site so not every tourist accommodation is listed on there as they don't all want to pay for the listing
Thanks Loaded x That's not the site I visited before ... but that's fine. Am I to take it that all the holiday accommodation listed on this site has a licence? The site I visited before was some sort of Tenerife Government site.
Yeah the places on there are all legal but not all the legal ones are on there
In the past .... someone very kindly posted a link to a government site listing all complexes in Adeje that hold touristic licences. I've trawled through for literally ages and can't find it now!!! Would anyone know the link I'm looking for?
http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=28
http://www.costa-adeje.es/public_en/pag_contenido.asp?id_nodo=29
thanks 9plus and loaded .... that's great xxx
Peterrayner
01-12-2011, 12:37
Just been discussing this matter again "elsewhere" with "you know you" regarding the total of 7,000 fines to are be levied.
It occured to me that these might be the sum total of the multiple fines levied. Lookig at the Boletin noticed the total fiens are about 18,000e per owner generlly but these are made of of 3 separate fines mostly.
So the total fines might be 2,000 - 3,000 to individual owners which to me is more consistant with the amount of internet advertising that was prevelant.
Just been discussing this matter again "elsewhere" with "you know you" regarding the total of 7,000 fines to are be levied.
It occured to me that these might be the sum total of the multiple fines levied. Lookig at the Boletin noticed the total fiens are about 18,000e per owner generlly but these are made of of 3 separate fines mostly.
So the total fines might be 2,000 - 3,000 to individual owners which to me is more consistant with the amount of internet advertising that was prevelant.
Still adds up to lots of millions either way Peter. Not bad for 17 inspectors.
What I can't figure out is why some are caught and not others? A couple in each block when everyone knows there's a huge percentage of illegal letters on those blocks. How come some and not others?
I would suspect the first batch were done as tests, just to see how the appeals went and so on. I would imagine that having been to a complex and got a full list of owners from the Admin, cross referencing to the interweb sites there are several filing cabinets full of more on standby..
Peterrayner
01-12-2011, 13:36
I would suspect the first batch were done as tests, just to see how the appeals went and so on. I would imagine that having been to a complex and got a full list of owners from the Admin, cross referencing to the interweb sites there are several filing cabinets full of more on standby..
Yes that seems to be the case...... especially where the website contained the owners names in full and also stated weekly rental rates and an availability calander showing weekly bookings.
Considering the wording on the Boletins they have taken that has sufficient proof of commercial touristic explotations.
think your figures are way out. on our complex amounted to around 12 owners prior to the start of the clampdown last year. some pulled off at that time. Other old hands had there own personal websites. So far we have three fined, two multi site users and one with personal website of many years standing. So still waiting for the dreaded knock on the door are 9 owners from internet.
Of course still holding out are the quiet renters with no internet ads in the past. Their fear will be betrayal by the ones fined already.
No two complex's will be the same, but i think the fines issued so far will be in terms of apartments renting, will be a very small fraction of the actual total involved.
think your figures are way out. on our complex amounted to around 12 owners prior to the start of the clampdown last year. some pulled off at that time. Other old hands had there own personal websites. So far we have three fined, two multi site users and one with personal website of many years standing. So still waiting for the dreaded knock on the door are 9 owners from internet.
Of course still holding out are the quiet renters with no internet ads in the past. Their fear will be betrayal by the ones fined already.
No two complex's will be the same, but i think the fines issued so far will be in terms of apartments renting, will be a very small fraction of the actual total involved.
Sorry ... what figures?
peter posted 7000 fines equals maybe 2000 to 3000 individual owners, he thought maybe equal to actual internet ads which had been active. Iam thinking there were many more than that in the canaries.
think your figures are way out. on our complex amounted to around 12 owners prior to the start of the clampdown last year. some pulled off at that time. Other old hands had there own personal websites. So far we have three fined, two multi site users and one with personal website of many years standing. So still waiting for the dreaded knock on the door are 9 owners from internet.
Of course still holding out are the quiet renters with no internet ads in the past. Their fear will be betrayal by the ones fined already.
No two complex's will be the same, but i think the fines issued so far will be in terms of apartments renting, will be a very small fraction of the actual total involved.
You're quite right nelson seems that the ones that never commerically advertised were a bit more clued up in the first place.
By the way, I was messing with the wayback machne earlier:
Holiday Lettings:
June 2010: Apartments in Tenerife: 540 Apartments in Los Cirstianos: 147
December 4th 2011: 492 & 104
Excuse my ignorance but what is the wayback machine???
By the way, I was messing with the wayback machne earlier:
Holiday Lettings:
June 2010: Apartments in Tenerife: 540 Apartments in Los Cirstianos: 147
December 4th 2011: 492 & 104
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 02:00
Just checking todays Boletins.
Interesting notices under the Turismo announcments ref: 6329 and 6330
2 bars appear to have received fines
PROVEN FACTS
Has been proven, under the inspections and actions referred to in the background, the following facts:
First, lacking in the establishment of the inspection book.
Second, lacking in the establishment of the complaint forms mandatory.
Third, do not announce the existence of complaint forms available to customers.
Fourth: to bring to the inspection tour, information or false documents involving obstruction of the work inspector.
The fines are
1. 90e no inspection book
2. 90e no complaints forms
3. 90e no notice of complaints forms
4. 1,700e lying to the inspectors.
compare the first 3 to the fines for similar offences by residential apartment owners ???
Just checking todays Boletins.
Interesting notices under the Turismo announcments
2 bars appear to have received fines
The fines are
1. 90e no inspection book
2. 90e no complaints forms
3. 90e no notice of complaints forms
4. 1,700e lying to the inspectors.
compare the first 3 to the fines for similar offenses by residential apartment owners ???
I´d like to see those massive fines stand up in court when compared to these one ones Peter. Well spotted. Shows what an absolutely ridiculous mess this really is.
I´d like to see those massive fines stand up in court when compared to these one ones Peter. Well spotted. Shows what an absolutely ridiculous mess this really is.
One thing is not having a book the other is not having a book and illegally holiday renting to tourists on a residencial complex etc etc
Their justification for the difference in fines
I can only imagine those 2 bar operating legally with opening licences or at least projects etc etc presented to the townhall cause after lieing to the inspectors and being fined €1700 for doing so they would of gone for their throats and ripped the business to pieces and got them on everything.
Bars and residential conplexes shouldn't be confused with each other because they are two completly seperate issues
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 09:16
One thing is not having a book the other is not having a book and illegally holiday renting to tourists on a residencial complex etc etc
Their justification for the difference in fines
Cant see that on the Boletins! The apartment owners fines are actually categorised and listed separately and the explotation of tourists is in fact the lesser of the 3 charges being listed as Leve..(Simple) with the other 2 listed as Grave (Serious)
The fines listed on apartments owners are
1. No book of complaints 8,500e
2. No notice of complaints book 8,500e
3. Touristic explotation 1500e
Aslo it should be noted that the charges on the bar owners also lists the corresponding charges as Grave but then decides to reduce them to a nominal amount for a first offence subject to no further infractions within 12 months
Cant see that on the Boletins! The fines are actually gategorised and listed separately and the explotation of tourists is in fact the lesser of the charges being listed as Leve..(Simple)
The fines listed on apartments owners are
1. No book of compalints 8,500e
2. No notice of complaints book 8,500e
3. Touristic explotation 1500e
You cant see what?
I was anwsering this Just checking todays Boletins.
Interesting notices under the Turismo announcments
2 bars appear to have received fines
The fines are
1. 90e no inspection book
2. 90e no complaints forms
3. 90e no notice of complaints forms
4. 1,700e lying to the inspectors.
compare the first 3 to the fines for similar offenses by residential apartment owners
About 2 bars
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 09:41
You cant see what?
I was anwsering this Just checking todays Boletins.
About 2 bars
but surely all laws must be applied equally to EVERYONE.
The infractions are listed separately and appear the same for each - apartment and bar yet the fines imposed are dramatically different
Yes the apartment owner is operating illegally but this infraction is listed has the lesser of all the "crimes"
My point is the bar owner seems to be being treated differently (hugely) for the same basic infraction and also appears to have the benefit of a "warning" for a first offence which has not been applied to the apartment owner.
I suspect this is because one set of fines is intended as revenue earning and the other is not.
Or am I just being too cynical. ???
Stop confusing a legally based and authorised business with someones illegal tourist letting outfit
Then you will see the difference Peter
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 10:09
Stop confusing a legally based and authorised business with someones illegal tourist letting outfit. Then you will see the difference Peter
Like I said I think I see the "difference" :)
One is a political decision made by politicians and the other is an official decision made by officials.
I'm glad you do
One is a decision made by the local townhall and the Cabildo and the other is a Canarian Government Law
Eye wide shut - two completely seperate issues as said before
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 10:35
I'm glad you do
I am glad you are glad :)
One is a decision made by the local townhall and the Cabildo and the other is a Canarian Government Law
I am glad we agree on this point. :)
Eye wide shut - two completely seperate issues as said before
Open or shut I can clearly see the "DIFFERENCE" here
The important point though is "will a judge" ???
Only one way to find out
Fight!!!!!!!
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 10:55
Only one way to find out
Fight!!!!!!!
Currently in hand :) (but not Harry Enfield style)
Might be able to let you know something tomorrow. :)
Peterrayner
05-12-2011, 11:04
we will see
I accept you are right on the issue that one is operating a legal business so the offence is deemed light and the other isnt so the same offence is deemed serious. :(
Are all Spanish people exempt from this law, i have just viewed about 20 Bulitens and every name is a British name, or have missed something.
Maybe it's just Brits who infringe the law?
Think about it, not many Spanish are going to buy holiday homes and try and rent them out themselves because they won't have as easy time communicating with potential clients (language barrier) so any that do own will generally buy on a tourist complex and let the sole agent take care of it.
Point of fact; on Paloma beach we have about 15 Spanish owners and not one of them does their own rentals. We have a free hand and they let us get on with it - every now and then they ask us to pay them what we owe them.
On the other hand, of the Brits - about 30% do their own rentals.
And the illegal ones who aren't registered? All Brits!
seanocelt
05-12-2011, 23:41
Currently in hand :) (but not Harry Enfield style)
Might be able to let you know something tomorrow. :)
Harry......HILL!
Thats possible, i know of Canarians/Spanish that rent out on non touristic complexes and are not even aware what is going on.
Excuse my ignorance but what is the wayback machine???
The wayback machine is probably the website detailed below
This website was demonstrated on a BBC program recently
http://www.archive.org/
It allows you to search through archived copies of websites which have been altered so that you can see what was there before the alterations.
They demonstrated it using a dispute between a customer and an insurance company where they had claimed on their medical insurance for a condition and the company told them that the condition wasn't covered by their policy which was actually true now but wasn't true at the time the policy was taken out in 2003.
They actually went back to the company's website as it was at the time the policy was taken out and printed off the relevant page and the same page from a couple of month's later when they had removed the cover for the condition. As they hadn't actually informed the customer that they had changed the cover since he took out the policy, they had to cough up the cash.
churnlobster
08-12-2011, 15:06
Does anyone have anymore information on when and where the meeting in Adeje is taking place?
Someone mentioned the 10th Dec but is that confirmed and where in Adeje?
Does anyone have anymore information on when and where the meeting in Adeje is taking place?
Someone mentioned the 10th Dec but is that confirmed and where in Adeje?
No It was to be the 15th but it looks as if its not happening
Not happening? Really???I thought masses of people were going ... I am/was intending to go along with a lot of others I know.
No It was to be the 15th but it looks as if its not happening
Not happening? Really???I thought masses of people were going ... I am/was intending to go along with a lot of others I know.
As I reported in the Lobbying Thread, the organisers are now having difficulty getting the Authorities to commit to attending :(
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