View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Sorry I missed that!
As I reported in the Lobbying Thread, the organisers are now having difficulty getting the Authorities to commit to attending :(
Sorry I missed that!
Don't worry - it's hard to keep up with the three threads :)
And Janet has just told me that the lawyers are planning to go ahead with a meeting anyway ... we're presuming they mean on the same day (15th Dec), but will have to clarify that after the weekend.
Mr Escobedo is going to have a good Xmas!
I've written a new article for my blog about how things are at the moment and what the future could hold for owners, please have a read: http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/what-is-next-for-property-owners-who-let.asp
I've written a new article for my blog about how things are at the moment and what the future could hold for owners, please have a read: http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/what-is-next-for-property-owners-who-let.asp
That is exactly the situation on the complex where I own. The question is .... once we have got over the stumbling block of unifying the owners .....(!!!) ... how to find a decent agent who will offer reasonable terms????
That is exactly the situation on the complex where I own. The question is .... once we have got over the stumbling block of unifying the owners .....(!!!) ... how to find a decent agent who will offer reasonable terms????
Whats is a reasonable term for you?
Peterrayner
11-12-2011, 16:32
Mr Escobedo is going to have a good Xmas!
potentially VERY good
7,000 Fines X 850e Appeal Fees = almost 6 MILLION euros. :eek:
Whats is a reasonable term for you?
I suppose what I mean is a bit of flexibility in the terms offered. For example .... the company operating on our complex offers one system for everyone. They pay a small but fixed rental amount per apartment (depending on number of bedrooms) and cover all maintenance and cleaning costs. BUT owners are only allowed to use the apartment themselves for four weeks of the year, to be taken in either May or October. That's fine for some, but a lot of owners bought with the intention of using the apartment themselves for the winter say, and then renting for the remainder of the time. Given the option between stopping renting altogether and only having access to their holiday home for such a limited time .. they are likely to opt for not renting. As a complex I feel/hope we can all come together and get the 50%+1 needed to allow renting (we had it in the past) but employ an agent who can offer maybe a couple of different rental packages, giving the owners some kind of choice.
Maybe I'm just dreaming!!!!!
potentially VERY good
7,000 Fines X 850e Appeal Fees = almost 6 MILLION euros. :eek:
The 18th Inspector
x
Obviously the hardest task is getting the owners all to come on board. Once that's done a whole new world of problems begin.... It's something I'm weighing up at the moment on another complex, as a management agent it's really hard to know what you can offer when there's so much you don't know about until you're actually "in there".
For example:
What is the standard like in the apartments?
How much can I charge the public to stay in that complex?
How much can afford I pay the owner, taking into account commissions of up to 25%, cleaning and website costs?
How much will it cost to staff and run a Reception, and will the owners want to pay for it?
How many of the owners will accept bookings?
How many of the owners will want find their own bookings and leave me nothing to book myself?
The money comes from being able to book the apartments, if you can't do that you're just a glorified cleaning company.
It's not an easy one.
Added after 4 minutes:
I suppose what I mean is a bit of flexibility in the terms offered. For example .... the company operating on our complex offers one system for everyone. They pay a small but fixed rental amount per apartment (depending on number of bedrooms) and cover all maintenance and cleaning costs. BUT owners are only allowed to use the apartment themselves for four weeks of the year, to be taken in either May or October. That's fine for some, but a lot of owners bought with the intention of using the apartment themselves for the winter say, and then renting for the remainder of the time. Given the option between stopping renting altogether and only having access to their holiday home for such a limited time .. they are likely to opt for not renting. As a complex I feel/hope we can all come together and get the 50%+1 needed to allow renting (we had it in the past) but employ an agent who can offer maybe a couple of different rental packages, giving the owners some kind of choice.
Maybe I'm just dreaming!!!!!
You're not dreaming, this is what we do at Paloma Beach, we offer some owners a fixed amount per month but I think only 2 or 3 use that option, and the other is we book it as much as possible and tell them when its booked, the owner can use it whenever they want so long as it doesn't clash with bookings already aproved by the owner, the owner if free to book his/her own apartment too if he or she wants to - and a mixture of our bookings and their bookings can be used to occupy the apartment - or just one or the other.
Obviously the hardest task is getting the owners all to come on board. Once that's done a whole new world of problems begin.... It's something I'm weighing up at the moment on another complex, as a management agent it's really hard to know what you can offer when there's so much you don't know about until you're actually "in there".
For example:
What is the standard like in the apartments?
How much can I charge the public to stay in that complex?
How much can afford I pay the owner, taking into account commissions of up to 25%, cleaning and website costs?
How much will it cost to staff and run a Reception, and will the owners want to pay for it?
How many of the owners will accept bookings?
How many of the owners will want find their own bookings and leave me nothing to book myself?
The money comes from being able to book the apartments, if you can't do that you're just a glorified cleaning company.
It's not an easy one.
Added after 4 minutes:
You're not dreaming, this is what we do at Paloma Beach, we offer some owners a fixed amount per month but I think only 2 or 3 use that option, and the other is we book it as much as possible and tell them when its booked, the owner can use it whenever they want so long as it doesn't clash with bookings already aproved by the owner, the owner if free to book his/her own apartment too if he or she wants to - and a mixture of our bookings and their bookings can be used to occupy the apartment - or just one or the other.
That's perfect!! If I could approach the owners with that kind of deal I'm sure we'd be able to make the 50%+1. Do agencies like your own usually just cover one complex? As a community could we approach a few agents and ask for them to tender for the job?
We only work on Paloma Beach, but we're willing to expand if the oportunity arrises and there's somewhere with 50%+1 or nearly has it and it can be reached. Trouble is persuading all the owners it's the right thing to do.
We only work on Paloma Beach, but we're willing to expand if the oportunity arrises and there's somewhere with 50%+1 or nearly has it and it can be reached. Trouble is persuading all the owners it's the right thing to do.
On our complex of just over 200 apartments, about 30 are timeshare, 20 are with the agent that previously held the touristic licence and of the remainder a few don't rent out at all, a few rent independently and most are scattered amongst a number of small agents. We have a number of differnt nationalities who own on the complex and they each seem to have an agent who speaks their language and advertises in their home country. I am hoping to be able to 1st persuade everyone that regaining the licence and doing everything completely above board and legally is the way to go (!!!!) and then hopefully to get all the agents to come together under one umbrella company to represent all those who wish to rent out. The more I think about it the entire plan is fraught with problems!!!!
On our complex of just over 200 apartments, about 30 are timeshare, 20 are with the agent that previously held the touristic licence and of the remainder a few don't rent out at all, a few rent independently and most are scattered amongst a number of small agents. We have a number of differnt nationalities who own on the complex and they each seem to have an agent who speaks their language and advertises in their home country. I am hoping to be able to 1st persuade everyone that regaining the licence and doing everything completely above board and legally is the way to go (!!!!) and then hopefully to get all the agents to come together under one umbrella company to represent all those who wish to rent out. The more I think about it the entire plan is fraught with problems!!!!
Yes it is I'm afraid.
The only way to do it would be for everyone to give up their current companies otherwise the umbrella company will never be able to truly control and make the most out of occupancy and certainly it would be hard to market the complex as one with online travel agents which is where a lot of bookings will come from.
Plus what happens if one of them receives a fine from a complaint, how would you get the money out of the corresponding agent????
Nightmare.
Yes it is I'm afraid.
The only way to do it would be for everyone to give up their current companies otherwise the umbrella company will never be able to truly control and make the most out of occupancy and certainly it would be hard to market the complex as one with online travel agents which is where a lot of bookings will come from.
Plus what happens if one of them receives a fine from a complaint, how would you get the money out of the corresponding agent????
Nightmare.
Thanks for all the info Loaded xx I think I'll take things one step at a time ... get the agreement to allow letting first and then deal with the issue of which agent to use xx thanks again
Hi Foz, it's not so much an agreement you need, you need all of the owners to name a company or individual they want to run it and that company needs signed forms authorizing that agent to "exploit" their property and give that signed form and a copy of their passports and escrituras (title deeds) to the Cabildo. and there has to be 50%+1 of them.
Hi Foz, it's not so much an agreement you need, you need all of the owners to name a company or individual they want to run it and that company needs signed forms authorizing that agent to "exploit" their property and give that signed form and a copy of their passports and escrituras (title deeds) to the Cabildo. and there has to be 50%+1 of them.
Right ... so both the agreement to allowing letting and the nomination of the agent needs to be done at the same time. I see.
Going back over something you put earlier ... you mentioned some of your owners rent out weeks themselves and then let you know which weeks are available for you to let. I don't understand how they are able to do that under the present laws ... I thought individuals would be unable to manage their own bookings ... that all reservations would have to be arranged by the agent? Are you saying they can advertise their own place, take the money etc and are then liable to declare their income to the tax authorities?
Hi Foz,
They aren't meant to do their own bookings but if you don't let them do this you're in for a bad relationship with the owners as not everyone has an apartment purely to make money from rentals.
LEt me clarify something:
Lets say 50%+1 of the owners signed the forms - the place can be registered.
Lets say one month later at an AGM a vote is taken by the owners present and represented on wether lettings should be allowed or not and it is voted that they should not - THIS MEANS NOTHING because 50%+1 of the owners have already signed their authorization to the agent. It is not a communal matter in this sense it's a private business decision.
It's the same as if the owners voted that an onsite bar should serve San Miguel instead of Dorada - if the bar doesn't want to change it's beer because the customers prefer Dorada then it's tough poo.
Peterrayner
11-12-2011, 19:26
there is a strong whiff of gemütlichkeit around this thread ATM :)
Hi Foz,
They aren't meant to do their own bookings but if you don't let them do this you're in for a bad relationship with the owners as not everyone has an apartment purely to make money from rentals.
LEt me clarify something:
Lets say 50%+1 of the owners signed the forms - the place can be registered.
Lets say one month later at an AGM a vote is taken by the owners present and represented on wether lettings should be allowed or not and it is voted that they should not - THIS MEANS NOTHING because 50%+1 of the owners have already signed their authorization to the agent. It is not a communal matter in this sense it's a private business decision.
It's the same as if the owners voted that an onsite bar should serve San Miguel instead of Dorada - if the bar doesn't want to change it's beer because the customers prefer Dorada then it's tough poo.
So the 50%+1 doesn't relate to the amount of owners who agree to "letting" in principle, it relates to the amount of owners who actually register with an agent. So someone who lives permanently in their apartment so has no intention of letting it out, can not be included in the 50%+1 whether they agree to allowing others to let or not? Do I have that right?
Also ... if a number of the apartments are run on a timeshare basis presumably they won't be able to be counted in the 50%+1 either?
You've got it right except the timeshare ones should be registered too.
Peterrayner
11-12-2011, 19:33
So the 50%+1 doesn't relate to the amount of owners who agree to "letting" in principle, it relates to the amount of owners who actually register with an agent. So someone who lives permanently in their apartment so has no intention of letting it out, can not be included in the 50%+1 whether they agree to allowing others to let or not? Do I have that right?
Also ... if a number of the apartments are run on a timeshare basis presumably they won't be able to be counted in the 50%+1 either?
John will correct me if I am wrong but I would have thought ANY owner could register regardless of their residential status
there is a strong whiff of gemütlichkeit around this thread ATM :)
And there was me thinking we only knew schadenfreude on here!
John will correct me if I am wrong but I would have thought ANY owner could register regardless of their residential status
They could but they shouldn't really
Added after 4 minutes:
You're meant to register and de register the properties as their status changes
I was doing this last week and the cabildo told me that no one else bothers lol
Peterrayner
11-12-2011, 19:40
And there was me thinking we only knew schadenfreude on here!
some do but others have a wider view
And there was me thinking we only knew schadenfreude on here!
They could but they shouldn't really is it illegal :wink:
The says so somewhere I think
The says so somewhere I think
Looks like I've got my work cut out here!!!
Looks like I've got my work cut out here!!!
You have no idea foz. I just managed to persuade an owner to register with us after 15 years of telling her she was doing it illegally!
welshman
11-12-2011, 21:21
Hi I,ve be reading the last few postings what you are saying a complex of over 200 unit must have 50+1 to register as touristic 101 units and register with an agent to exploit on their behalf.
Nice business if you can get it based on 100k per unit thats 10 million euros of assets to manage with no come back. I understand there is wages to pay advertising.
But I do not know of any other business where the main assest is put in another hands to another to exploit on your behalf and you pick up the crums this has got to be illegal in trading terms. I,m in business and wish some one would purchase machines for me and let me run and exploit them without garaunteeing a return. Its like insurances or pensions you never know what your getting back. :wow::wow::wow::wow::wow:
It's not all rainbows and butterflies , the owner always gets more from the bookings than the agent
Added after 2 minutes:
The way we work anyway
Why has it got to be illegal??
welshman
11-12-2011, 21:35
Thats big of you when they are the main contributor to your business.
Any reason why you are being a prick?
Added after 3 minutes:
It works both ways. They cant rent without us, we can't rent without them, our average price to the public is about 260 pounds per week, we pay owners 150.... We pay commissions from 10% up to 25% and still have to clean the place and be available 24/7.... Hardly big bucks
welshman
11-12-2011, 21:45
I understand possibly the need for agents but not the closed shop that when out in the 80s I have agent in Portugal that takes care of my apartments. But he,s chosen on service he provides not that he,s the only one I can rent with legally. You are a genuin chap and probably provide a first class service but if you did not what is the recoarse take the aparment off letting. Thats no free trade its manopoly no axe to grind as you come across a a very nice guy
There are unscrupulous and unfair management agents out there but we aren't one of them. We try and treat the owners fairly and pay them the lions share of the money while making a fair profit ourselves .
We were doing this long before the law came in, it's not our fault the law is how it is - we are just lucky that we always tried to do things legally when others didn't (registered with cabildo since 87) and therefore were in a good position when the law changed.
welshman
11-12-2011, 22:01
Thats 100 apartments x 110 euros per week 11,000 euros per week 52 weeks 572,000 based on 50% ocupancy 286000 Euros per annum. Buys a lot of advertising, miss mop and her bucket and reception just one complex. Is there any complexes going for over workedAccounts Directors that works 60 hrs a week to keep 2 companies heads above water.
welshman
11-12-2011, 22:04
Just having a moan hope the weathers kind to you have a good christmas
But you forget that you need to pay staff - wage bill is over 100k per year not counting miss mop and her bucket.... Social security.... Tax.... Office Running costs, replacing linen and towel stocks etc etc
Added after 2 minutes:
Oh and adwords 25-30k a year last time I looked
But you forget that you need to pay staff - wage bill is over 100k per year not counting miss mop and her bucket.... Social security.... Tax.... Office Running costs, replacing linen and towel stocks etc etc
Its those costs that everyone forgets,or the ones that are not legal feel they dont need to pay.....
Exactly, I forgot about adwords tbh! Good job we make gazillions each month.....
welshman
11-12-2011, 22:19
:agree:I must have touched a nerve ? Its tough in business.:whistle:
Added after 5 minutes:
Lighten up I will be out for Christmas staying Illegal will buy you a pint as long as its no more than a euro:hello:
No worries I'll hold You to that!
welshman
11-12-2011, 22:36
Had a bit of banter got early start in morning not to much sun bathing:goodluck:
tenerifelegal
11-12-2011, 23:55
As the letting agent do you not have to deduct 24 per cent of the money for tax and pay on behalf of the owner every 3 months ?
Oh and adwords 25-30k a year last time I looked
Spend more on SEO, once you can get the organic rankings you can at least half that amount. I dont pay anything for adwords anymore.
Bit more competitive in your market though, quite a few big hitters with big budgets. I'd let them blow their dough on adwords and invest more in getting the number 1 organic spots.
Lots of web users become banner and ad blind anyways so the sponsored ads aren't as effective as nr 1 in the organic listings. I know I ignore them without even thinking about it.
I think the problem Welshman was stating is the monopoly the 50+1 rule,being in total opposite to EU rules on competition,(quite an irony in this week of all weeks).What happens if your apartment sole letting agent favours certain people over others.What safe guards are there over little back handers being given to maximise apartment letting for some,whilst others are given less,noting that with this rule theres nothing they can do about it
I think the problem Welshman was stating is the monopoly the 50+1 rule,being in total opposite to EU rules on competition,(quite an irony in this week of all weeks).What happens if your apartment sole letting agent favours certain people over others.What safe guards are there over little back handers being given to maximise apartment letting for some,whilst others are given less,noting that with this rule theres nothing they can do about it
Not only that ... but what is to stop the agent from increasing their fees/commission to amounts that just make the entire excercise pointless for the owner? I appreciate all the costs that the agent incurs but some agents seem to forget the costs that the owner incurs (Basura, IBI, Insurance, Maintenance costs, community fees, water and electric, tax, mortgage) On my one bedroom apartment my costs for 2011 so far come to over 7,000€. It was bought with the hope of not just covering those costs but also making a profit. I have arrangement with our agent that I clean my own place so that doesn't even include cleaning or laundry costs. What I had thought might be a good investment of my hard earned cash turns out to be a bit of a nightmare!! I know one day when I sell I get the increase in property value and the fact that someone else has paid the majority (if not all) of my costs over the years .... but I had naively thought that it might help towards my living costs along the way!!! Would have been better to put the money in the bank even with the low returns they are offering!!!
welshman
12-12-2011, 10:27
You may be one of the lucky ones that have purchased on touristic complex that will be able to sell, what of the poor sods that bought on new complexes that were dueped into buying on residential by the agent saying. they will never inforce the law. They are totally shafted .
Peterrayner
12-12-2011, 10:32
You may be one of the lucky ones that have purchased on touristic complex that will be able to sell, what of the poor sods that bought on new complexes that were dueped into buying on residential by the agent saying. they will never inforce the law. They are totally shafted .
Actually it is proving attractive to buyers who want an apartment which isnt on a touristic site. The problem for current owners however as in all markets is if there is a sudden flood of such properties for sale at the same time.
You may be one of the lucky ones that have purchased on touristic complex that will be able to sell, what of the poor sods that bought on new complexes that were dueped into buying on residential by the agent saying. they will never inforce the law. They are totally shafted .
Unfortunately I also fall into that category having also bought on a residential site. I bought off plan and told the builder/promoter I was buying with the intention of renting on holiday lets. They told me that was fine. That "residential" just referred to the fact that no holiday companies would be allowed to operate on the complex and "what an individual did with their own property was up to them". From day one I let my jestoria know and have paid income tax on everything I've earned!!!! I now have that place up for sale but obviously am getting no interest!! The way I'm looking at it is the law is in place, I will do whatever I can to comply with that law ..... while at the same time backing whatever efforts I can back to change the law!! As far as the residential argument is concerned, I blame myself for asking the right questions ... but of the wrong people!!! Should have had a solicitor!! But with the tourist sites I just can't believe that this business of one agent controlling each complex can really be upheld in this day and age. If you look at examples in other countries (Italy, France, Portugal even the Uk) travellers looking for self catering holidays are more independent and as long as they have a local telephone number where they can contact someone in the event of a problem .... they are happy with that. I find it hard to believe that the tourism board wouldn't be better setting up some kind of regulatory system, where owners register their property for an annual fee. The property and the way it is described and advertised is checked by them on an annual basis and as long as owners are renting out at a fair price for what they are offering and the apartment/villa complies with their levels of safety/quality etc and the owner is registered to pay tax on their earnings ... I think it would be a far better system for everyone ... owners, agents, holiday makers, the tax office AND the tourism board!!! Everyone's a winner!!!!!!!!!! Once again ... I guess I'm just dreaming!!!
welshman
12-12-2011, 12:00
No you live in the real world of letting but Canaries are not, they will count the cost in time.Lets see what the summer brings with less money going round. Everyone that has a problem should put their apartment up forsale in block even if you don,t want to sell just make a stand. The government seeing forsale signs going up my get them to see sence!!!:wow::wow::wow:
Added after 4 minutes:
Actually it is proving attractive to buyers who want an apartment which isnt on a touristic site. The problem for current owners however as in all markets is if there is a sudden flood of such properties for sale at the same time.
There are less buyer now that the goverment stopping final salary pension. Teachers and Public sector employee,s retiring at 58 on final salary pensions.They all got to work till their 65 like the rest of us, so the market will dry up. Don,t say there are other buyer every country in the EU are having to tightenig their belts and work longer.
Peterrayner
12-12-2011, 12:25
There are less buyer now that the goverment stopping final salary pension. Teachers and Public sector employee,s retiring at 58 on final salary pensions.They all got to work till their 65 like the rest of us, so the market will dry up. Don,t say there are other buyer every country in the EU are having to tightenig their belts and work longer.
The latest buyer on our complex was Argentinian :)
Just like you i thought id make some money but your lucky to cover all outgoings despite renting over 40 weeks as you say the only thing is that someone else payed for most off your property.David
Its not only the apartments, we had a client who was ready to complete the sale on a villa but as the client arrived at the villa for the final viewing the postman arrived with the owners fine,sale was brought to a halt as the buyer wanted to holiday let,so the 800.000 Euro sale is now off,how much sales tax lost there? much more than the dam fine, i can assure you
€800.000 Villa for holiday lets
blimey
We did have one worth 1.8 million and was was being rented for 2.500 euro per week but now on long let due to this crazy law,most of the villas offer such luxury and there is a call for this kind of holiday but its not going to be available anymore,im sorry to say
1000k per week, 40 weeks = 40k = 5% ROI
Its not only the apartments, we had a client who was ready to complete the sale on a villa but as the client arrived at the villa for the final viewing the postman arrived with the owners fine,sale was brought to a halt as the buyer wanted to holiday let,so the 800.000 Euro sale is now off,how much sales tax lost there? much more than the dam fine, i can assure you
Have there been many villa owners fined, do you know, sunspot ???
Have there been many villa owners fined, do you know, sunspot ???
I know of seven at the moment with the maximum fine being 24.000 , the last one received their fine last Thursday,also found a villa in our street had been fined by reading the BOC,he had no idea, he lives in the Uk
welshman
12-12-2011, 20:35
:bowdown:Any news on the appeals on the fines some of them must be :bowdown:
Peterrayner
12-12-2011, 20:38
no responses received as yet.
boredinscotland
12-12-2011, 21:02
This is gonna get messy, lots of people will loose out, the only people to gain will be the 'Legal' ones and maybe rightly so depends how you look at it. I got out at the right time,completed Notary 8th November, just picked up a 2 bed flat here for £33,500, spend maybe 5 grand on it and rent for £400-£450 a month bringing in more per annum than my £125k apartment(money back to me)
Hi there, I have an apartment at Marino in Silencio. Its mainly a mix of timeshare apartments, hotel run apartments and then probably around 20 private ones. Do you know what classification my apartment would come under in relation to renting it out? Thanks
Sounds like You're on a tourist registered complex so just sign up to the sole agent and see what they'll let you do
Hi Loaded, thanks for that. How do I find out who the sole agent is? Do I contact the community office..if so, that will be a dead end as they never respond to anything!!!!
clearly sunspot is suffering in comercial terms from this crazy law. I still firmly believe that all will come right in the end. This law is just so plain unfair and un needed it will never stand up to proper legal challenge under eu anti competitive law. Also it is going to create a massive problem for the canarian economy, which will eventually result in this self destruction by the canarian goverment coming to an end. The problem is that it will takr time, many owners do not know that they have been fined, others are yet to recieve fines. By the time the opposition to the law has grown many months may have passed. By the time the effect on the canarian economy is felt even if the government did a u turn at that point , it would take many months for apartment owners to re advertise on internet and generate bookings again. The cnarian economy is paddling down a tranquil river at the moment, yet just around the corner there is niagra falls!
Can I also protest at the friendly banter on this thread now being shown to apartment owners who have been renting out illegally. When I came on here a few weeks ago to complain about my fines I got a right hammering from posters , accusing me of tax fiddling and breaking canary laws, plus saying I was well out of order to suggest a protest movement to try to change this stupid law.When I pointed out that many private renters just rent out to cover costs, I was attacked for that , and some posters came up with daft arguments about selling free beer as a counter argument.
Now other people are coming on here today saying that they rent out just to cover costs , and no one is going ballistic attacking them.
Well Nelson, this is my personal opinion as printed in the last issue of Tenerife News
THE TOURIST BOARD ARE HAVING A LAUGH BUT I THINK THIS WILL BACKFIRE ON THE TOURISUM OF TENERIFE
It has been a nightmare of a year for many owners of villas on this beautiful island of Tenerife and it looks like this nightmare will continue for many months to come, if the tourist board of Tenerife don’t act quickly to repair the damage they are already causing. We have been managing villas for the last three years and the owners of these villas have been trying to legalise them for longer.
We received a 66.000 fine from the tourist board for not having a intermediate licence ( which we now have at a cost of 5.60 euro) our case is going to the high court shortly but what a crazy amount to fine someone in the first place,like you said in your article, "a warning first would have been better."
The villa owners are now receiving huge fines for advertising their villas to let to tourists.
We have now stopped advertising all villas for the protection of our owners and also laid off a member of staff.
Most owners of these villas want to be able to rent their property out legally but it seems the tourist board are set against this happening with massive fines being made already to villa owners who are advertising their property to rent and refusing to allow them to obtain a permit to do so……….WHY?
The owners are at a loss to see what the problem is, they offer unique accommodation for many visitors to the island and it is proven that these visitors WILL go elsewhere if a villa holiday is not available on this island, these people want the luxury of their own private place and WILL NOT go to any hotel in Tenerife. They want their own pool and luxury surroundings, the standard of most of the villas is second to none.
I have asked all the visitors if a hotel would be their choice if a villa in Tenerife was not allowed and every single one of them said “ we will have to go to another island as we want to holiday as a family in a private villa”
These Villas who want to rent agree that safety standards must be in place, well all I can say is the ones I have seen are.
1. Fireproof mattresses and covers
2. Smoke alarms and fire blankets or extinguishers
3. Pool maintenance , cleaned, treated and all pool depths marked clearly. Safety rings provided
4. Pest controlled on a regular basis
5. 24 hour call out service to ensure customer completely problem free.
This in my mind is not always the case in Touristic hotels
I cannot understand the Tourist Boards sanity on this problem, do they think that all the fines will keep Tenerife going for many years to come? What will happen when these villas close down, which is the case for many due to these crazy fines, well this is what is happening now
1. These villa clients shop at Mercadona and will easily spend 500/800 Euros on their shopping, I know this i have been with them when they shop.
2. These clients hire cars, and use the local Taxi service in the evenings to go to the Restaurants.
3. These clients book excursions and trips to the theme parks
4. These clients use all the local amenities, shops. Bars Restaurants and without them Callao Salvaje may as well close down because many of the hotel guests DO NOT leave the hotel, that is fact.
Over the course of the last 2 years many big celebrities have visited this island and all of them have come for a completely private holiday, which a Villa is the only property to offer this option,believe you me they will not go into a hotel, a huge Worldwide Magazine have been over Filming on this island and with over £150.000 worth of clothes and £500.000 worth of camera equipment, a Hotel is completely out of the question,and I have to wonder what is going to happen when they want to visit again with no villas available
All the owners are asking is for the Tourist board to look at this situation as a long term thing, if the Tourist Board keep to what they are saying “ No Licences to be issued for villas “ then it will be their comeback when these villas are sold and the “Villa Holiday “ is a thing of the past on the island of Tenerife
I sympathise with the villas who are not part of a community yet can not register because of the moratorium. I think sunspot has a good argument on that one.
Nelson it was me who had a go at you when you claimed you only rented to cover costs.
This was because you said you knew about the law yet still bought and rented and then bought another one. You don't buy two apartments on a mortgage and rent them to cover costs. Your first place fair enough, you wanted a place in the sun and the only way was to rent it to keep the dream alive.... but when you buy two properties - it wasn't because you had a dream or wanted a second holiday home - it was because you knew you could make good money at it, and you did. All
This when you knew full well it was illegal.
And it turns out you're on a complex which could regain it's tourist licence yet you've said nothing about getting the rest of the owners on there together to sort themselves out, no you'd rather go on about EU anti competition laws that this law has already survived twice.
Hard not to have any sympathy for you.
My this is complex (excuse the pun).
I still don't think I have fully understood when it comes to properties off-complex.
We are buying a house, an older town-house style property, no pool, no garden, near the harbour in Los Abrigos. I may want to rent it at some point although it's mainly a holiday home until we make the leap and move for good.
What I still don't really get is what I need to do to rent it out legally. Can I get the required licences to advertise and rent myself?
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 08:42
My this is complex (excuse the pun).
I still don't think I have fully understood when it comes to properties off-complex.
We are buying a house, an older town-house style property, no pool, no garden, near the harbour in Los Abrigos. I may want to rent it at some point although it's mainly a holiday home until we make the leap and move for good.
What I still don't really get is what I need to do to rent it out legally. Can I get the required licences to advertise and rent myself?
Yes it can appear complex.
You can rent out the house long term legally. This would appear to be for a MINIMUM of 6 months. It would be recommended that a formal rental contract is offered. However in some circumstances the tenants would be able to obtain a protected tenancy of up to 5 years.
In relation to short term weekly holiday lets of independent properties, ie those not on a community, it should in theory be able to rent out providing they obtain a touristic designation. The problem is they are not issuing such licences at the moment and it appears they have no intention of doing so.
This means renting commercially short term to tourists is deemed illegal and so is openly offering the property for rent to the general public ie advertising either on the internet or in any other manner.
Fines are currently being issued to independent villa owners of 24,000e.
An experienced local lawyer has offered an opinion currently that you can allow "family and friends" to stay, however this is on condition that you have not openly advertised the property and the guests do not pay a commercial rental so therefore they are not deemed to be tourists.
Just on another matter in the Boletins issued today no 6456 an agent Casa Rurales Herrenas SL has been denounced and fined following an inspection of a complex where the condition of the apartments were found not to meet the inspectors satisfaction.
No mention of any fine for illegal touristic explotation so I presume this is on a legal tourisitc site.
My this is complex (excuse the pun).
I still don't think I have fully understood when it comes to properties off-complex.
We are buying a house, an older town-house style property, no pool, no garden, near the harbour in Los Abrigos. I may want to rent it at some point although it's mainly a holiday home until we make the leap and move for good.
What I still don't really get is what I need to do to rent it out legally. Can I get the required licences to advertise and rent myself?
I'm afraid, gsc, under current regulations you will not be able to get a licence: there is just no system at the moment for individual properties except some rural ones which yours is not.
Thanks for the replies - what a crazy system - let's hope for change in the new year.
Yes it can appear complex.
You can rent out the house long term legally. This would appear to be for a MINIMUM of 6 months. It would be recommended that a formal rental contract is offered. However in some circumstances the tenants would be able to obtain a protected tenancy of up to 5 years.
In relation to short term weekly holiday lets of independent properties, ie those not on a community, it should in theory be able to rent out providing they obtain a touristic designation. The problem is they are not issuing such licences at the moment and it appears they have no intention of doing so.
This means renting commercially short term to tourists is deemed illegal and so is openly offering the property for rent to the general public ie advertising either on the internet or in any other manner.
Fines are currently being issued to independent villa owners of 24,000e.
An experienced local lawyer has offered an opinion currently that you can allow "family and friends" to stay, however this is on condition that you have not openly advertised the property and the guests do not pay a commercial rental so therefore they are not deemed to be tourists.
Just on another matter in the Boletins issued today no 6456 an agent Casa Rurales Herrenas SL has been denounced and fined following an inspection of a complex where the condition of the apartments were found not to meet the inspectors satisfaction.
No mention of any fine for illegal touristic explotation so I presume this is on a legal tourisitc site.
Peter where do you find the Boletins info?
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 09:26
Peter where do you find the Boletins info?
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/archivo
Peter where do you find the Boletins info?
This page www.gobcan.es/boc/ and then click on dates - open as individual pdf's
EDIT - Peter too quick :lol:
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/archivo
Thanks Peter, it's cold in Leeds today M8
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 09:36
Thanks for the replies - what a crazy system - let's hope for change in the new year.
Like all things in Tenerife and I mean ALL things get ready for a long wait. :)
This page www.gobcan.es/boc/ and then click on dates - open as individual pdf's
EDIT - Peter too quick :lol:
Peter/Doreen,
How do I translate the PDF to English?
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 10:03
Peter/Doreen,
How do I translate the PDF to English?
cut and paste sections from the Boletins into Google Translate.
cut and paste sections from the Boletins into Google Translate.
Nice one Peter
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 10:19
Thanks Peter, it's cold in Leeds today M8
staying indoors today blizzards and gales forecast.
You can search the Boletins if you need to by putting your NIE number (no spaces or hyphens I gather) in the search box top right I think.
staying indoors today blizzards and gales forecast.
You can search the Boletins if you need to by putting your NIE number (no spaces or hyphens I gather) in the search box top right I think.
Better to put it into Google (e.g x5627345y no spaces between letters and numbers) - just tried the Boletin and you need to select a year - my Trafico fine being my example :( ... came up via Google
PS lovely sunny day here in Tenerife :)
boredinscotland
13-12-2011, 12:16
I recieved a registered letter i August/September to me in Tenerife, I was not there to pick it up so it was sent back, I have checked my N.I.E w2ith Googleand the Boletin, nothing has came up, does this mean I have not been fined?(yet)
I sympathise with the villas who are not part of a community yet can not register because of the moratorium. I think sunspot has a good argument on that one.
Nelson it was me who had a go at you when you claimed you only rented to cover costs.
This was because you said you knew about the law yet still bought and rented and then bought another one. You don't buy two apartments on a mortgage and rent them to cover costs. Your first place fair enough, you wanted a place in the sun and the only way was to rent it to keep the dream alive.... but when you buy two properties - it wasn't because you had a dream or wanted a second holiday home - it was because you knew you could make good money at it, and you did. All
This when you knew full well it was illegal.
And it turns out you're on a complex which could regain it's tourist licence yet you've said nothing about getting the rest of the owners on there together to sort themselves out, no you'd rather go on about EU anti competition laws that this law has already survived twice.
Hard not to have any sympathy for you.
As I posted way back we bought the first apartment for the dream, but the second instead of uk buy to let. If we had bought a uk buy to let it would have worked out the same , income just covering costs including mortgage. Like all apartment owners renting at our rates with mortgages we only try to cover costs, infact we are like most out of pocket in cash terms over the years.
My friend in tenerife discussed forming an agency on our complex last year, when all this started , but of course there are so many ostriches. You may well be the man for the job with us, perhaps your manned reception can sort us, its not that far away? I would do this and pay resonable charges just to get legal for now. Of course I remain in favour of the law being kicked out eventually , and I am sure that is what ultimatley will happen, the law as it sits is just too unfair and unnecesary.
Agents like you may have a future role on many complex's, to ensure health and safety and insurance is as required ? There are some people on our complex who use agents now and would welcome a fully legal one to work with them for lettings and cleaning. Others would be like us doing all there own letting and cleaning but needing to work with an agent just to get legality at this time.
Added after 5 minutes:
I recieved a registered letter i August/September to me in Tenerife, I was not there to pick it up so it was sent back, I have checked my N.I.E w2ith Googleand the Boletin, nothing has came up, does this mean I have not been fined?(yet)
yes definitley, that is exactly what happened to us. We were lucky our friend in tenerife read our complex on the JA website ,then he got on the bolutin. He rang me and we just got our appeal in in time to canary solicitors.
Yes returned registered letters from canary government are your notice of fine. they go on bolutin as legal service if returned from posyal attempt
your fine will now be in the pipeline, soon on a future bolutin
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 12:42
I recieved a registered letter i August/September to me in Tenerife, I was not there to pick it up so it was sent back, I have checked my N.I.E w2ith Googleand the Boletin, nothing has came up, does this mean I have not been fined?(yet)
Boletin Notices for El Mirador
8th Nov. Apts. H-105. H-205. Q-102
10th Nov. Apts. P-104. O-105. O-104. L-204. L-111
11th Nov. Apts. J-105. J-106
14th Nov. Apt. M-202
Not seen any since ????
Angusjim
13-12-2011, 14:14
Have just read Sunspots post #2066 and it quite unbelievable what is happening with the villas. I thought that the authorities were trying to take the island more upmarket but sounds like they might be driving away the very people they are looking to attract.???
Others would be like us doing all there own letting and cleaning but needing to work with an agent just to get legality at this time.
Sorry if i've missed something, but whats in it for the agent if this happens?
Sorry if i've missed something, but whats in it for the agent if this happens?
clearly an owner doing all their own letting and cleaning would have to pay a fixed amount per week to the agent in respect of their bookings. The agent would register the bookings with the authorities. If there are insurance issues all owners would have to pay pro rata per year for this, whether they rent with the agent or let themselves.
I would have thought that this payment per week let would provide a reasonable income for an agent even without any letting. This represents a new additional cost to us, but would be necesary at this time given the law. As I have said many times we manage fine without an agent now, but until the law is changed this may be our best way forward in the interim.
tenerifelegal
13-12-2011, 15:35
[QUOTE=nelson;125427]clearly an owner doing all their own letting and cleaning would have to pay a fixed amount per week to the agent in respect of their bookings. The agent would register the bookings with the authorities. If there are insurance issues all owners would have to pay pro rata per year for this, whether they rent with the agent or let themselves.
I would have thought that this payment per week let would provide a reasonable income for an agent even without any letting. This represents a new additional cost to us, but would be necesary at this time given the law. As I have said many times we manage fine without an agent now, but until the law is changed this may be our best way forward in the interim.[/QUOTE
I have asked this before with no reply but does the letting agent have to deduct the 24 per cent of rental & pay as tax on behalf of the owner?
Have just read Sunspots post #2066 and it quite unbelievable what is happening with the villas. I thought that the authorities were trying to take the island more upmarket but sounds like they might be driving away the very people they are looking to attract.???
Angusjim you missed out the "and regulated" part
People have done exactly what they wanted for too long in Tenerife and Spain in general
[QUOTE=nelson;125427]clearly an owner doing all their own letting and cleaning would have to pay a fixed amount per week to the agent in respect of their bookings. The agent would register the bookings with the authorities. If there are insurance issues all owners would have to pay pro rata per year for this, whether they rent with the agent or let themselves.
I would have thought that this payment per week let would provide a reasonable income for an agent even without any letting. This represents a new additional cost to us, but would be necesary at this time given the law. As I have said many times we manage fine without an agent now, but until the law is changed this may be our best way forward in the interim.[/QUOTE
I have asked this before with no reply but does the letting agent have to deduct the 24 per cent of rental & pay as tax on behalf of the owner?
not sure exactly what you mean. People are free to pay income tax on their lettings either in spain or in the uk . Tax would be due on any profit made, depending on outgoings and incomings. Allowances for all expenses are tax deductible, things like cleaning and advertising plus all utility bills. Mortgage interset is also tax deductable.
Tax payments which may or may not be due would be payable by the owner as is the case now, to spain or the uk.
tenerifelegal
13-12-2011, 15:48
[QUOTE=tenerifelegal;125436]
not sure exactly what you mean. People are free to pay income tax on their lettings either in spain or in the uk . Tax would be due on any profit made, depending on outgoings and incomings. Allowances for all expenses are tax deductible, things like cleaning and advertising plus all utility bills. Mortgage interset is also tax deductable.
Tax payments which may or may not be due would be payable by the owner as is the case now, to spain or the uk.
I am not sure what is correct, I thought the agent had to deduct the 24 per cent & pay in every 3 months (on 216 form) I hope the legal agents who post on here can let us know
I have asked this before with no reply but does the letting agent have to deduct the 24 per cent of rental & pay as tax on behalf of the owner?
I do not believe so ... I declare any monies received from the agent as part of my income (I'm tax resident in Spain)
tenerifelegal
13-12-2011, 15:56
I do not believe so ... I declare any monies received from the agent as part of my income (I'm tax resident in Spain)
I think if you are resident that is correct, I meant non resident
We have to pay 5% IGIC then 20 something percent on the profits.
Nelson: Good pitch but I'm out thanks, not worth it.
We have to pay 5% IGIC then 20 something percent on the profits.
Nelson: Good pitch but I'm out thanks, not worth it.
Yes, Loaded, but you pay over the agreed rental amount gross ... I think with longer term rentals there is meant to be a deduction ???
bonitatime
13-12-2011, 17:52
I dont think there is a deduction unless you are letting as a business. We dont deduct for the property and in the past have had the tax office do our declarations.
We do deduct 19% of our rent on the commercial properties we rent which we pay to the tax office quarterly and then have to give our landlord a copy of the paperwork.
We have to pay 5% IGIC then 20 something percent on the profits.
Nelson: Good pitch but I'm out thanks, not worth it.
no problem, seems to me that it is a good earner for someone for very little on hands work, just admin really. Maybe sunspot can take our agency on, just until the law is changed , but as I say some owners do use agents for letting already on our place.
Unfortunately you have no idea. Good luck to whoever takes up your generous offer.
Have just read Sunspots post #2066 and it quite unbelievable what is happening with the villas. I thought that the authorities were trying to take the island more upmarket but sounds like they might be driving away the very people they are looking to attract.???
I think the villas should be diffirent you should be able to register a individual villa as long it comes up to a set standard as it stands they seems not to be a way to let a stand alone villa legaly there just going to ruin this market. David
no problem, seems to me that it is a good earner for someone for very little on hands work, just admin really. Maybe sunspot can take our agency on, just until the law is changed , but as I say some owners do use agents for letting already on our place.
Bit like that guy with 2 apartments....................innit
well up until now that is
cheers
x
I can't see how it's a good earner to not let an apartment and to not clean an apartment. Seriously, how much can someone justify charging an owner for not doing anything?
I don't think an owner would even pay 100 euros a month to receive no service and no bookings......
no problem, seems to me that it is a good earner for someone for very little on hands work, just admin really. Maybe sunspot can take our agency on, just until the law is changed , but as I say some owners do use agents for letting already on our place.
I feel quite sorry for you in a strange way. You see, your entire future appears to be hanging on the assumption that this law will be revised, and be revised anytime soon. Unfortunately though, the Government's overall strategy of pushing, and pushing very hard for total control over the standard of all tourist accomodation on the islands clearly remains very much in place with fines now being issued almost daily and persuing this route rather than even meeting with some disgruntled owners (as I write this the proposed Tourismo meeting which was supposed to take place on Thursday has yet to confirmed). Arguments against this law have already been made, but it has already been ruled to be sound, and a decision the Canarian Government have been left alone to determine for themselves.
There is a sound valid reason (as expressed previously) as to why Villas should perhaps be allowed to apply for letting licences, a lot of villas would probably meet (mosr exceed) the basic standards being sought by Tourismo and since they are a relatively small number of them (in comparison to apartments) I can see some logic in movement toward establishing a system whereby they might be allowed to be included.
However, I simply cannot see the day when letting apartments to the tourist market on complexes designated as residential will ever be sanctioned. Even if (huge if) this argument got as far as the courts, the very fact that a residencial complex is where residents should be able to live peacfully without interferance from tourists will be the principle upon which rulings would be made - either in the Canarian courts or for that matter further up. Human beings have rights - including a right to expect some privacy in their own homes.
Some complexes where the 50+1 has lapsed may well regain their status as legally touristic as they one were and in law this could also be argued.
What will happen, sadly, and arguably stupidly, for some is that those who have received a fine already or are in the process of being processed, will be prime candidates for further fines as you are now in the limelight and easy fodder for a virtually bankrupt country looking to raise some much needed money and I suspect most lawyers would advise you to stop letting immediately and to take action(s) which demonstrate this as future defense in court.
welshman
13-12-2011, 20:14
:redcard::redcard:
not sure exactly what you mean. People are free to pay income tax on their lettings either in spain or in the uk . Tax would be due on any profit made, depending on outgoings and incomings. Allowances for all expenses are tax deductible, things like cleaning and advertising plus all utility bills. Mortgage interset is also tax deductable.
Tax payments which may or may not be due would be payable by the owner as is the case now, to spain or the uk.
I think you are required by law in Spain and UK to declare any income, not free to pay income tax ITS TAX EVASION . You are required by law to declare your earnings from your lettings in Tenerife quarterly, also yearly in the uk on your personal tax form. There is an agreement between Spain and the UK tax authorties that you must pay tax in the country of rental ( Spain ) . Then declare in uk at the end of year. If you are doing it correctly to claim your running expences for rentals in Tenerife you must have a certificate of country of residence fron you lacal tax office in UK and present it to your accontant in Tenerife.:redcard:
I can't see how it's a good earner to not let an apartment and to not clean an apartment. Seriously, how much can someone justify charging an owner for not doing anything?
I don't think an owner would even pay 100 euros a month to receive no service and no bookings......
but that is exactly the situation that everyone renting out on our complex now finds themselves in. We are dormant touristic, everyone has managed fine without a single agents for donkeys years. However the new reality is that in order to be legal we need to get the 50 plus 1 and bring in an agent. Certainly the agent is not going to have to do anything much , but these are the crazy times we are living in. Individual owners will have no choice but to pay a fee to the agent on each week they rent out. It is going to be hobsons choice. As long as the agent registers the clients and sorts the paperwork its job done. If that were possible for a fee of 25 euro per let week I personally would not object given the circumstances we are all in. If an agent can do this for half that amount so much the better. Whatever payment was agreed is outlay for nothing as compares with the past situation, but as things now stand there is going to be no alternative.
Nelson i don't mean to sound rude or condescending, but I don't think you understand the potential of your apartment complex as a whole.
Yes you could all pitch together and find someone who'll create a company and you all sign up to them by paying them 100 a month tondo nothing and that agent would turnover 100k per year and then have to pay rent, wages etc and come out with bugger all -
But sur y sol is well placed enough to be so much more than that and it would be travesty to do something so half arsed with the place.
The potential of the place is tremendous and I could envisage charging the public 350 euros a week with the right tweaks bringing net payments to owners of over 200 per week for over 40 weeks a year within 2 years - But that won't happen by trying to install a puppet management company making peanuts .
Nelson i don't mean to sound rude or condescending, but I don't think you understand the potential of your apartment complex as a whole.
Yes you could all pitch together and find someone who'll create a company and you all sign up to them by paying them 100 a month tondo nothing and that agent would turnover 100k per year and then have to pay rent, wages etc and come out with bugger all -
But sur y sol is well placed enough to be so much more than that and it would be travesty to do something so half arsed with the place.
The potential of the place is tremendous and I could envisage charging the public 350 euros a week with the right tweaks bringing net payments to owners of over 200 per week for over 40 weeks a year within 2 years - But that won't happen by trying to install a puppet management company making peanuts .
thats all very interesting, and much food for thought. Our place has always been very popular and has many return clients. I take on board your idea, we will have to see what other owners think as things progress. Many are still unaware of the problem at this time and as always with community life opinions are going to differ.
[QUOTE=tenerifelegal;125436]
not sure exactly what you mean. People are free to pay income tax on their lettings either in spain or in the uk . Tax would be due on any profit made, depending on outgoings and incomings. Allowances for all expenses are tax deductible, things like cleaning and advertising plus all utility bills. Mortgage interset is also tax deductable.
Tax payments which may or may not be due would be payable by the owner as is the case now, to spain or the uk. I hope the inspectors are not reading this rubbish!!! Tax relief on mortgages for second homes bought to rent.Tax paid EITHER in UK or Spain.Are you living on this planet?The on site rental agent can tell you what he is prepared to do.If,as in the case of Loaded he allowes you to do some of your own rentals that is at his discretion.There are owners around who want the agents to let for them on the quiet weeks and then do their own lets at Christmas and in peak holiday times and pay a pittance to theeeee agent who has to cover his own costs ,office,staff,insurance etc. for the whole year.
no problem, seems to me that it is a good earner for someone for very little on hands work, just admin really. Maybe sunspot can take our agency on, just until the law is changed , but as I say some owners do use agents for letting already on our place. WHat law changed??????
16 years dormant
2 year preparation
Over 7000 fines in less than 8 months
Next year everyone can rent out to holiday makers again, Studios, Villas, Apartments, Townhouses you name it
No Problem...
Lol, yeah next year it'll all be back to normal.
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 23:02
Just to throw this in the pot...:)
You dont actually need an outside agent IIRC. The community itself can if you can get agreement become their own agent and arrange the 50%+1 registrations.
Just to throw this in the pot...:)
You dont actually need an outside agent IIRC. The community itself can if you can get agreement become their own agent and arrange the 50%+1 registrations.
thats very interesting as well, and food for thought. that would take our place down the in house agent , diy , at cost agency model. of course with community matters it is hard to say what everyone will want, but we are a very small community with an exellent president/vice president. could be that this route would suit people more rather than bringing in outsiders?
Dont forget the costs of running a reception and lifeguards at the pool etc....
Ouch !
Peterrayner
13-12-2011, 23:30
Dont forget the costs of running a reception and lifeguards at the pool etc....
Ouch !
True :) but those on costs are applicable regardless of who achieves the sole agency rights.
The real problem will be that some owners (maaybe the majority) having effectively achieved "residential" status will not be inclined to bear the costs of regaining the "touristic" designation.
Exactly Peter, the only problem with the DIY communal route is that residents will always be unwilling to pay the costs , then you've got the ones that don't let, the others that "don't let" , and the ones who "only have friends and family ".....
True :) but those on costs are applicable regardless of who achieves the sole agency rights.
The real problem will be that some owners (maaybe the majority) having effectively achieved "residential" status will not be inclined to bear the costs of regaining the "touristic" designation.
we are definitley in the majority today as renters, my estimate would be 85 %. however some may decide to just sell up or others may try the long let route. Also there are quiet renters who have never advertised, they may prefer to carry on as they have to avoid any additional costs.
is it the case that toristic must have a lifeguard on the pool? also do you have to have a reception on site? is it not possible to share a nearby desk or just have 24 hour telephone contacts?
Peterrayner
14-12-2011, 09:54
Not sure what form a "reception" has to take but most touristic sites I have stayed on have had some sort of a permanent manned office area.
We looked in to the costs of an employment agency supplier for a lifeguard (which is mandatory on a touristic site IIRC) at about 30K per year.
Several more Boletin fines posted today for Apartamentos El Marqués Palace in Puerto Santiago and 2 new ones for Bungalows El Beril in Del Duque.
Not sure what form a "reception" has to take but most touristic sites I have stayed on have had some sort of a permanent manned office area.
We looked in to the costs of an employment agency supplier for a lifeguard (which is mandatory on a touristic site IIRC) at about 30K per year.
Several more Boletin fines posted today for Apartamentos El Marqués Palace in Puerto Santiago and 2 new ones for Bungalows El Beril in Del Duque.
the lifeguard bill sounds expensive even by agency wage cost. having said that it is a 7 day week job and quite a long day.
I know not all apartments have a reception on site, guests sometimes have to use a reception at another site. Obviously small complex's have a higher lifeguard burden per apartment than large ones. you cannot argue with safety needs though, and it only adds a bit to say 40 renting owners in year. problem kicks in if renting numbers fall to a low level , then the cost escalates.
tenerifelegal
14-12-2011, 12:18
the lifeguard bill sounds expensive even by agency wage cost. having said that it is a 7 day week job and quite a long day.
I know not all apartments have a reception on site, guests sometimes have to use a reception at another site. Obviously small complex's have a higher lifeguard burden per apartment than large ones. you cannot argue with safety needs though, and it only adds a bit to say 40 renting owners in year. problem kicks in if renting numbers fall to a low level , then the cost escalates.
There is also other parts of the law to consider as well eg.the fire regulations & supply free sunbeds around the pool which most community are against as the owners use this money towards the cost of running the complex
Nelson you need an onsite reception, lifeguard, onsite cleaning staff, I would say the wage bill for the sole agent would be around 100k per year based on 100-150 apartments not including cleaning staff. Then the cost of renting the reception office (20k -30k maybe? ).
The sole agent would need to furnish and refurb the reception, buy a stock of linen and towels (10k-15k) etc etc.
You'd also need computers and property management system....
You can't run 100-150 apartments the same way as you'd run 1 or 2.
There is also other parts of the law to consider as well eg.the fire regulations & supply free sunbeds around the pool which most community are against as the owners use this money towards the cost of running the complex
we always have had free sun beds round our pool.Fire regs need compliance, would think we are not far off wrong there as a lot of things are in place from our previous touristic days.
sharing a nearby reception would probabley suit us best, would lower some of the standing charges. Our external cleaning around the complex is done by staff at this time under our community.
Peterrayner
14-12-2011, 12:54
we always have had free sun beds round our pool.Fire regs need compliance, would think we are not far off wrong there as a lot of things are in place from our previous touristic days.
sharing a nearby reception would probabley suit us best, would lower some of the standing charges. Our external cleaning around the complex is done by staff at this time under our community.
I would imagine that Loaded means cleaning staff for the inside the apartments.
I would imagine that Loaded means cleaning staff for the inside the apartments.
dont think we need them on site permanently?
Peterrayner
14-12-2011, 13:19
dont think we need them on site permanently?
then I would allow about 40e per clean per apartment plus linen and laundry costs say 12e :)
Is the meeting on at Arona tomorrow and if so, does anyone know where?
Nelson it's not about what suits you best. You HAVE to have an onsite reception you can't "share" somewhere nearby .
Of course the cleaning staff need to be onsite because the 100-150 apartments are going to need towel & linen changes, people complain about things that need doing and have been missed, ants in apartment...blankets need washing.... Whatever.
You're honestly out of your depth on this, what one or two apartments need compared to a collective is not comparable.
Peterrayner
14-12-2011, 14:03
Nelson it's not about what suits you best. You HAVE to have an onsite reception you can't "share" somewhere nearby .
Of course the cleaning staff need to be onsite because the 100-150 apartments are going to need towel & linen changes, people complain about things that need doing and have been missed, ants in apartment...blankets need washing.... Whatever.
You're honestly out of your depth on this, what one or two apartments need compared to a collective is not comparable.
Honest this is not a dig !!! just a question that popped into my head just now..
You paint a very bleak picture for the running of an agency...so why would ANYONE do it
and if the agency has to be based on site how does MM manage it. ???
Obviously mm don't do it legally. They still rent out unregistered apartments on paloma beach - what makes you think they do things right elsewhere ?
The future is bleak if you think someone is going to want to go in somewhere and do everything that needs to be done just so owners can keep doing what they are now, the way they are now, with all their individual cleaners and keyholders.
The only way it would be profitable at all would be for the sole agent to be able to book all or most of the apartments most of the time , while undertaking the cleaning and laundry for the apartments too with no 3rd party involved.
Angusjim
14-12-2011, 14:17
Angusjim you missed out the "and regulated" part
People have done exactly what they wanted for too long in Tenerife and Spain in general
Quite correct lets also regulate the "sole letting agents" who appear to have no safeguards in place for their clients !!
Nelson it's not about what suits you best. You HAVE to have an onsite reception you can't "share" somewhere nearby .
Of course the cleaning staff need to be onsite because the 100-150 apartments are going to need towel & linen changes, people complain about things that need doing and have been missed, ants in apartment...blankets need washing.... Whatever.
You're honestly out of your depth on this, what one or two apartments need compared to a collective is not comparable.
you are forgetting that I am one bloke with 2 apartments , but on our site there are many others just like me. We all manage to have happy returning clients year after year , many owners have done for years before we started, without on site cleaners. These problems you site here today you have touched on before, you try to make a good argument for the letting law as if it is without doubt a good thing. I have read you mention picking up bewildered travellors at the airport , as if people can not travel on their own without finding their apartments. What we have been offering is self catering holidays ,not hotel accomodation. People do not expect the hotel experience with cleaning linen change and access to reception. If they came to us and missed those things they could go back to hotels in the future.
What our complex decides to do to regain its touristic we will have to see. But we need not worry about cleaners on sight and ants etc, any more than we have in past. Think loaded is protesting a bit too much here and trying to justify the law where it is not relevant. He is making us think costs are going to get up a lot more with compliance.
The sole agents are already regulated but further regulations could be added, eg: must give owners at least x percent of public price etc
Added after 3 minutes:
you are forgetting that I am one bloke with 2 apartments , but on our site there are many others just like me. We all manage to have happy returning clients year after year , many owners have done for years before we started, without on site cleaners. These problems you site here today you have touched on before, you try to make a good argument for the letting law as if it is without doubt a good thing. I have read you mention picking up bewildered travellors at the airport , as if people can not travel on their own without finding their apartments. What we have been offering is self catering holidays ,not hotel accomodation. People do not expect the hotel experience with cleaning linen change and access to reception. If they came to us and missed those things they could go back to hotels in the future.
What our complex decides to do to regain its touristic we will have to see. But we need not worry about cleaners on sight and ants etc, any more than we have in past. Think loaded is protesting a bit too much here and trying to justify the law where it is not relevant. He is making us think costs are going to get up a lot more with compliance.
This is my point Nelson.
You want to offer what you offer now.
I understand that.
But you speak of getting in a sole agent to make it legal.
No agent would go to all that trouble if it was going to continue as it is now because the agent won't make enough money.
You can't continue the way you are, if you don't change you'll get fined, if you do change you need to change almost completely.
Angusjim
14-12-2011, 14:31
The sole agents are already regulated but further regulations could be added, eg: must give owners at least x percent of public price etc
Who regulates them the same bunch of clowns that have taken 15 years to clamp down on the law ?
What criteria has to be met to become a registered sole agent & what checks do they carryout on the potential "sole agents" ? and what safeguards are in place for the owners who put their trust in agents ?
Peterrayner
14-12-2011, 14:44
Who regulates them the same bunch of clowns that have taken 15 years to clamp down on the law ?
What criteria has to be met to become a registered sole agent & what checks do they carryout on the potential "sole agents" ? and what safeguards are in place for the owners who put their trust in agents ?
They are regulated !!!
In the Boletins issued yesterday no 6456 an agent Casa Rurales Herrenas SL has been denounced and fined following an inspection of a complex where the condition of the apartments were found not to meet the inspectors satisfaction.
No mention of any fine for illegal touristic explotation so I presume this is on a legal tourisitc site.
Who's regulating the regulators that regulate the regulators? This could run and run angusjim
The sole agents are already regulated but further regulations could be added, eg: must give owners at least x percent of public price etc
Added after 3 minutes:
This is my point Nelson.
You want to offer what you offer now.
I understand that.
But you speak of getting in a sole agent to make it legal.
No agent would go to all that trouble if it was going to continue as it is now because the agent won't make enough money.
You can't continue the way you are, if you don't change you'll get fined, if you do change you need to change almost completely.
we will just have to see. I take your point about an agent doing it all and owners netting 200 per week. I still think though that some body may want to do this for a reasonable amount on an admin basis,and leave us more or less as we have been. We are going to have to wait and see, and agree to differ in the meantime.
Angusjim
14-12-2011, 19:00
Who's regulating the regulators that regulate the regulators? This could run and run angusjim
So what are the answers to the points I raised as how they decide who is a suitable person or persons to become a sole agent & what safeguards do holidaymakers & owners have under the proposed system
They're decided by the shear amount of owners who put their faith in them for Them to even begin
They're regulated by the cabildo and the numerous laws and pieces of legislation that come out.
They're answerable to complaints by owners and customers alike via the claim forms available.
can you give me the link to the Boletin site, please. thanks.
can you give me the link to the Boletin site, please. thanks.
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/
Loaded do you know if there is a Charity sole agent in Tenerife?
http://www.gobcan.es/boc/
Thank you for this, what do I need to look for to check which complexes have been targeted, I did have it but lost it.
thanks again.
Thank you for this, what do I need to look for to check which complexes have been targeted, I did have it but lost it.
thanks again.
Suzanne they are under this heading
Presidencia del Gobierno
You dont.
That page is a day by day record of government business. The only real way you can search it is to work backwards and look for the fines as they are published.
But. Fines are only published there if the registered letter has been returned to the government un delivered.
The easiest way to see whether you have been "published" is to put your NIE number into Google. If there is a match then you can easily find the page in the BoC which applies.
If you don't appear it doesn't mean you are safe. You should assume that if you have advertised a residential property to the holiday market at any time in the past couple of years on Owners Direct and the other similar sites, the chances are they have your details and it is probably just a matter of time before they send you the fine demand certificado - if it is not signed for then it will eventually appear in the BoC
Added after 3 minutes:
As a PS
There are no fines recorded in today's BoC - if you look at yesterdays you will find a handful, mostly in El Marquez Puerto Santiago.
Added after 2 minutes:
As a PPS
There is no definitive list of exactly which complexes the inspectors have been, however, as above, you should assume they have been/will go to every non-touristic complex, demand the details of owners from the Administrators, which they are entitled to do, then go away and match up adverts from the internet to names and addresses.
churnlobster
15-12-2011, 18:54
It would be good to have a complete list of targeted complex's if anyone has that info.
Sorry didn't see the post above before putting this post
Tenerife Villas
15-12-2011, 19:55
rip off Britain today on BBC feature a company called diamond resorts who use an umbrella company citronza to gain the exploitation license for at least 3 complexes in south tenerife who regulates these timeshare sharks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Peterrayner
19-12-2011, 09:29
A fine recorded in today`s Boletin 247 of 6,010E
Seems to be an agency called Gestucan, SL. operating on a complex called Apartamentos Monteray, Gran Canaria
1. for not notifying the Tourismo of a change of company holding the exploitation rights on the complex.
2. for not providng a permanent 24hr reception for customers.
and a cracker today round here:
A guy has locked himself out of an apartment and left his luggage inside and is about to catch his plane.
We can't help because we don't have keys, we ring the owner after asking administrators for the number, no reply. So the guys been sent down to the bars on the front looking for a guy called geoff with a grey goatie because we think he manages the apartment.
And some wonder why these laws come in?
Added after 1 34 minutes:
A fine recorded in today`s Boletin 247 of 6,010E
Seems to be an agency called Gestucan, SL. operating on a complex called Apartamentos Monteray, Gran Canaria
1. for not notifying the Tourismo of a change of company holding the exploitation rights on the complex.
2. for not providng a permanent 24hr reception for customers.
So managment companys ARE regulated then?
Peterrayner
19-12-2011, 18:14
So managment companys ARE regulated then?
??? Yes they are regulated and there are rules applicable to the running of a sole explotation agency.
Both these actions listed on the Boletins fining agencies where as a result of individual denuncias presumably from customers.
or from routine inspections
boredinscotland
19-12-2011, 21:11
If it is the Geoff I'm thinking about you know him Loaded, used to stay Parque Tropical,, now up at Vista Hermosa....Geoff from Manchester, red astra estate car,,,maybe same guy???
Yeah its him but god knows his phone number
[QUOTE=Loaded;127539]and a cracker today round here:
A guy has locked himself out of an apartment and left his luggage inside and is about to catch his plane.
We can't help because we don't have keys, we ring the owner after asking administrators for the number, no reply. So the guys been sent down to the bars on the front looking for a guy called geoff with a grey goatie because we think he manages the apartment.
And some wonder why these laws come in?
how very unfourtunate. However this unfourtunate event is not in any sense a justification for the single agent unity of exploitation law. What this event shows is the commonsense fact that we all need repsonsible keyholders in resort , that is just a phone call away , in case of similar emergencies. In this age of mobile phones, for both customer and agent/keyholder, the lock out plane to catch scenario, should not cause undue hassle.
The problem should not be seen as justification for law requiring but one agent per complex, rather as long as the customer can contact the keyholder in emergencies, then it would not matter how many keyholders /agents were on the complex.
We have always given customers our managers 24 hour phone numbers. We have had one case of jammed safe to sort out, customers money and passports inside, all ended well thanks to our super safecracking manager.
No one expects to have clients abroad in their apartments without local managers to help them with maintenance or mishaps if they need it.
The world over though, in self catering accomodation, people can enjoy themselves, without a single agent or hotel style 24 hour manned reception.
[QUOTE=Loaded;127539]and a cracker today round here:
A guy has locked himself out of an apartment and left his luggage inside and is about to catch his plane.
We can't help because we don't have keys, we ring the owner after asking administrators for the number, no reply. So the guys been sent down to the bars on the front looking for a guy called geoff with a grey goatie because we think he manages the apartment.
And some wonder why these laws come in?
how very unfourtunate. However this unfourtunate event is not in any sense a justification for the single agent unity of exploitation law. What this event shows is the commonsense fact that we all need repsonsible keyholders in resort , that is just a phone call away , in case of similar emergencies. In this age of mobile phones, for both customer and agent/keyholder, the lock out plane to catch scenario, should not cause undue hassle.
The problem should not be seen as justification for law requiring but one agent per complex, rather as long as the customer can contact the keyholder in emergencies, then it would not matter how many keyholders /agents were on the complex.
We have always given customers our managers 24 hour phone numbers. We have had one case of jammed safe to sort out, customers money and passports inside, all ended well thanks to our super safecracking manager.
No one expects to have clients abroad in their apartments without local managers to help them with maintenance or mishaps if they need it.
The world over though, in self catering accomodation, people can enjoy themselves, without a single agent or hotel style 24 hour manned reception.
They had the contact details of the keyholder.....
.... Inside the apartment
[QUOTE=nelson;127730]
They had the contact details of the keyholder.....
.... Inside the apartment
Maybe our little friendly complex has had it very lucky with the wonderful people who live / holiday there. I supose it is possible for clients to not take much notice of keyholder /agent details, until the dreaded moment when they became locked out without them to hand. On our complex though, other concerned neighbours, either long stay swallows or residents, would know who looked after so and so 's apartment. From this neighbourly knowlegde the contact phone number could be established. To be fair it has probabley happened and we do not get to hear about it.
Sounds to me that in the future free market letting , that will follow the present mess, it would make sense if complex,s were required to have a book in their unmanned receptions showing 24 hour keyholder phone numbers of all letting apartments. That would hopefully avoid the problem you are telling us about.
In other words you are advocating regulation ?
Added after 2 minutes:
Oh yes, and the availability of telephone numbers in such a manner is I believe in contravention of the Data Protection laws
In other words you are advocating regulation ?
i said some time ago that the portugese model is the one to copy. All business needs some regulation to protect customers. There are basic health and safety needs, fire regs, fire proof mattress,s,smoke alarms, safe electics etc.
You in the flat earth single agent camp, must not confuse sensible commensense regulation , with a completely unnecesary protectionist law.
There are no practicle benefits to single agent letting whatsoever for the customer. It cannot be justified by any rational arguments, over the situation of multiple lettings by agents / individuals that has formed much of the tourist letting in the canaries over many years.
I have heard a lot of abuse on this forum from supporters of single agent letting and much gloating that this law will never be changed, but I have yet to hear a single solid argument in its favour, todays locked out client has not swung the debate for me either.
Nelson it's not gloating to say the law won't be changed, to be fair it's common sense that after 16 years in place and it been taken to the european courts twice, and surviving , It isn't going anywhere.
I can't see how sole agents wouldn't be better for the customer - I can see your argument from an owners point of view but from a clients point of view surely it's better to have someone on site constantly on hand?
Nelson it's not gloating to say the law won't be changed, to be fair it's common sense that after 16 years in place and it been taken to the european courts twice, and surviving , It isn't going anywhere.
I can't see how sole agents wouldn't be better for the customer - I can see your argument from an owners point of view but from a clients point of view surely it's better to have someone on site constantly on hand?
what you are proposing there is that there is some one on the complex 24 hours per day. You are saying that that would be better for clients. Not just a single agent on site. You can argue if you want, that it is better for clients to have someone on a complex 24 hours, but that is not an argument to justify the single agent with the monopoly of explotation on the complex. How due you actually argue that that situation is necesary?
nelson's just worried about himself and his little illegal holiday letting outfit
With No consideration for anything or anybody else
There's nothing like a Brit to tell the locals how to do it...
They normally come unstuck
bonitatime
20-12-2011, 09:37
what you are proposing there is that there is some one on the complex 24 hours per day. You are saying that that would be better for clients. Not just a single agent on site. You can argue if you want, that it is better for clients to have someone on a complex 24 hours, but that is not an argument to justify the single agent with the monopoly of explotation on the complex. How due you actually argue that that situation is necesary?
I dont think that is what Loaded is proposing my understanding is this is what the Canarian government are insisting on.
Nelson
I see things differently. The Canarian Government's primary objective is to control tourism - and you cannot blame them for that since it is pretty much the primary product of these islands - some 70% if I remember correctly.
What they are insisting on is that the tourism industry is controlled and meets some reasonable levels of standards. If you look back and consider just how badly the reputation of the islands suffered from the Time Share scams of the past 20-30 years you can see their point and understand why they are anxious to avoid a repetition of what has gone before.
The problem of course is that whilst you and your colleague may well be running your little industry in a responsible manner there will be many hundreds who do not, or if private letting continues to grow, might not, and hence the clamping down of controls. The Government must also consider how to protect those who live and work here and by that token afford them a reasonable life style too. To offer the level of service they see as being required by today's holiday maker they have introduced and are now implimenting laws to protect tourists and for that matter residents.
Whatever you wish for because it suits your personal arrangements (freedom to basically carry on regardless) does not fit the way the Government here sees the future developing.
One thing is for certain, the law will not go away. Perhaps over time it may be tweaked here and there as things develop. For example Villas may be accomodated and perhaps even re-classification of certain complexes from touristic to residential, or vice versa, but the principle of the law will remain and with it many of the requirements imposed to protect tourists. Yes even the sole agency rules could perhaps be tweaked along the way, however certain basic factors will remain and more will be added. The necessity for a 24 hour reception/security on any complex where a tourist might need assistance. Life guards posted at every swimming pool, a basic level of other safety and service measures - fire alarm systems, cleaning, regular inspections of the facilities, provision of wi-fi internet access and so on and so on.
The reality you and others face is one of having to fund these requirements in the future from the income you have been pocketing for many years. It clearly doesn't suit you, but it will not change significantly other than becoming harder and more complex.
You may consider this law to be a protectionist and draconian law, but clearly the courts do not seem to agree and have allowed the Canarian Government to continue to impliment it. You only have to look at how the island has changed in the past 15 years or so to get a handle on the way tourism is being re-invented and despite the potential longer term implications which many here can see, the push toward 5 star golfing and leisure breaks will continue......
nelson just doesn't get it.
nelson just doesn't get it. He isn't alone is he? You only have to read through the thread to see why the Tourist Board don't want a meeting!!
Nelson
I see things differently. The Canarian Government's primary objective is to control tourism - and you cannot blame them for that since it is pretty much the primary product of these islands - some 70% if I remember correctly.
What they are insisting on is that the tourism industry is controlled and meets some reasonable levels of standards. If you look back and consider just how badly the reputation of the islands suffered from the Time Share scams of the past 20-30 years you can see their point and understand why they are anxious to avoid a repetition of what has gone before.
The problem of course is that whilst you and your colleague may well be running your little industry in a responsible manner there will be many hundreds who do not, or if private letting continues to grow, might not, and hence the clamping down of controls. The Government must also consider how to protect those who live and work here and by that token afford them a reasonable life style too. To offer the level of service they see as being required by today's holiday maker they have introduced and are now implimenting laws to protect tourists and for that matter residents.
Whatever you wish for because it suits your personal arrangements (freedom to basically carry on regardless) does not fit the way the Government here sees the future developing.
One thing is for certain, the law will not go away. Perhaps over time it may be tweaked here and there as things develop. For example Villas may be accomodated and perhaps even re-classification of certain complexes from touristic to residential, or vice versa, but the principle of the law will remain and with it many of the requirements imposed to protect tourists. Yes even the sole agency rules could perhaps be tweaked along the way, however certain basic factors will remain and more will be added. The necessity for a 24 hour reception/security on any complex where a tourist might need assistance. Life guards posted at every swimming pool, a basic level of other safety and service measures - fire alarm systems, cleaning, regular inspections of the facilities, provision of wi-fi internet access and so on and so on.
The reality you and others face is one of having to fund these requirements in the future from the income you have been pocketing for many years. It clearly doesn't suit you, but it will not change significantly other than becoming harder and more complex.
You may consider this law to be a protectionist and draconian law, but clearly the courts do not seem to agree and have allowed the Canarian Government to continue to impliment it. You only have to look at how the island has changed in the past 15 years or so to get a handle on the way tourism is being re-invented and despite the potential longer term implications which many here can see, the push toward 5 star golfing and leisure breaks will continue......
self catering apartments in the ownership of private individuals have been part and parcel of canary tourist accomodation for many many years. They have been a very strong and important part of the islands tourist economy. I doubt that the present crackdown has anything to do with the canary governments greater vision for the future of tourism on the islands. It is simply in my opinion , at the demand of the hotel sector , after they suffered a drop in visitor numbers in 2008/2009 due to the global economic crisis. The logic of the hotels being, with the apartment beds showing on the internet sites, all these apartments represent our customers. If we get them back , then we are out of the crisis.
The many years between the 50 plus 1 law starting and 2008/2009 , when no enforcement was taken , was because the canarian economy benefited from full hotels and full apartment beds, it would have been daft to curb this vital part of the tourist economy.
The thing is that when people chose to book and stay in a self catering apartment, they know that they will have no 24 hour reception, that is the same in self catering accomodation all over the world. It really is up to the free choice of the customer whether they book into a hotel, book into self catering, hire a camper van or go camping in a tent. We do not need to worry too much here about the rights and wrongs of their holiday accomodation choices.
In the modern free world it is just odd that the canarian government wants to make all self catering apartments sort of like hotels, with 24 hour manned receptions. There is no reason why the canaries should not act like the rest of the world and accept self catering accomodation without the hotel add ons.
The only explanation for this is blatent protectionism, brought out in 1995, ignored because it was found unecesary, then dragged up in 2008/2009 in panic at the world wide crisis.
It is simply in my opinion , at the demand of the hotel sector , after they suffered a drop in visitor numbers in 2008/2009 due to the global economic crisis. [/B].
So why was the law conceived and passed in 1995 ??
The thing is that when people chose to book and stay in a self catering apartment, they know that they will have no 24 hour reception, that is the same in self catering accomodation all over the world.
This simply isn't true - world wide, from camping sites in France to S/C accomodation elsewhere in the world there is an expectation of quality and service - including receptions and security etc.
In the modern free world it is just odd that the canarian government wants to make all self catering apartments sort of like hotels, with 24 hour manned receptions. There is no reason why the canaries should not act like the rest of the world and accept self catering accomodation without the hotel add ons.
No doubt the recession has focussed attention on this and many other issues in recent times, but this current situation dates back many, many years when the "modern world" as you call it began to demand higher standards and controls on ripping people off.
This is not to say you are guilty of ripping anyone off necessarily, but the demands of tourists HAVE changed considerably over the years and, with respect, many are not being met by the private letters
So why was the law conceived and passed in 1995 ??
This simply isn't true - world wide, from camping sites in France to S/C accomodation elsewhere in the world there is an expectation of quality and service - including receptions and security etc.
No doubt the recession has focussed attention on this and many other issues in recent times, but this current situation dates back many, many years when the "modern world" as you call it began to demand higher standards and controls on ripping people off.
This is not to say you are guilty of ripping anyone off necessarily, but the demands of tourists HAVE changed considerably over the years and, with respect, many are not being met by the private letters
the old hands on our place told me that the law came in in 1995 due to the recesion of the early nineties reducing visitor numbers in hotels at that time. By the time the law came in though, things had improved for the hotels anyway, so as i have been saying this daft law was ignored. It was ignored for good reason , as the canaries benefited from the apartment clients as much as hotel clients, restuarants tend to need apartment people more, but apartment clients , like hotel clients , help everthing, shops, water parks, taxis,bars ,supermarkets etc.
Ther are many circumstances around the world where clients stay in a hotel/ campsite with a 24 hour reception. However there are many other types of self catering acomodation where people can stay without that being provided. I have enjoed a weekend in Ediniburgh in an apartment a few years ago, with the family, and just this summer we stayed in Bath somerset for two days in an apartment. We have also stayed in hotels in tenerife, spain,greece , italy and Ireland. Twenty years ago we took our honeymoon on corfu in a self catering bungalow. It really is not a major issue if you stay somewhere with a reception or not. Its just the way things are, there are hotels and there are self catering apartments throughout the world.
It defys reason why the canary government ever thought it necesary to impose hotel like standards on the self catering apartment sector.
It can only be seen as a protectionist measure to make hotels feel better protected from small private renters.
It defys reason why the canary government ever thought it necesary to impose hotel like standards on the self catering apartment sector.
It can only be seen as a protectionist measure to make hotels feel better protected from small private renters.
Or to improve the standards....
nelson just doesn't get it.
nope .....
Or to improve the standards....
no, the facts speak for themselves. The small private rental industry in the canaries has a good reputation for providing first class accomodation. The dream home in the sun usually provides a high standard of fittings and decor. It amazes me on our place some of the re furbs, proper 5 stars at times. If the sector was not popular with clients , then there would be nothing to cause anger to the hotels, all those internet ads with bookings showing. many apartment clients re book year after year in winter, in my opinion there is not enough self catering accomodation on the islands in winter, with more available beds there could easily be more visitors looking for long stays from all the countries in the frozen north. A real boost for the canarian economy.
There is not any sort of a widespread problem with sub standard apartments in the private rented sector in the canaries. Just thousands of satified customers.
Tell that to the guy who missed his flight yesterday.........
Tell that to the guy who missed his flight yesterday.........
you have to keep a sense of proportion here. How many visitors manage without such disasters? The vast majority.
golf birdie
20-12-2011, 17:27
Tell that to the guy who missed his flight yesterday.........
some people should never be allowed a passport. Then again a quick call to the local locksmith and the job would of been done. Speaking for myself a hotel is Ok for a short break but anything more than a few days its a no go. I want and need my own space and it would seem that the 1000's of swallows here for the winter feel the same. As for pushing for 5 star holliday makers, don't you think a lot of these people wish to stay in villas??
yes I'm sure the locksmiths would be round within 10 minutes and speak enough english to take the call....
golf birdie
20-12-2011, 18:02
I have called locksmith Schlosser many times for different people and the longest wait was 30 mins and the longest he took to open a door was 60 seconds. Speaks Spanish, English and German :wink::wink:
I have called locksmith Schlosser many times for different people and the longest wait was 30 mins and the longest he took to open a door was 60 seconds. Speaks Spanish, English and German :wink::wink:
thats a useful number to have. suppose that sort of thing is more common than we think, safes can jam as well at times.
Certainly not an issue to advocate 24 hour manned receptions over.
golf birdie
20-12-2011, 18:17
thats a useful number to have. suppose that sort of thing is more common than we think, safes can jam as well at times.
Certainly not an issue to advocate 24 hour manned receptions over.
his number is 922716586 / 615366278. Both are business numbers and he is fully legal.
experience and local knowledge teaches you who to call and how to find them, being locked out of an apartment in a foreign country with no one to help you will make problems like these harder to solve.
golf birdie
20-12-2011, 18:33
experience and local knowledge teaches you who to call and how to find them, being locked out of an apartment in a foreign country with no one to help you will make problems like these harder to solve.
some of these holliday makers are adults you know :wink:
some of these holliday makers are adults you know :wink:
Some yes, but not many
Added after 20 minutes:
That's harsh actually / not all
Added after 3 minutes:
But then should people on holiday have to call out locksmiths ?????
Some yes, but not many
Added after 20 minutes:
That's harsh actually / not all
Added after 3 minutes:
But then should people on holiday have to call out locksmiths ?????
the thing is loaded, you are digging yourself into a deep hole with this one. you quote this mis hap as if it justifys 24 hour compulsary manned receptions. All that was needed was the keyholders contact phone number. As I posted yesterday , a log of such numbers should be available in an unmaned reception , so as to help with this rare but regretable incident.
You can not expect to make any sort of a rational case against peolpe booking into self catering apartments around the world, as compares with canary law which will not allow it/
Yes it is canary law but it is bonkers daft and completly out of step with the rest of the world. There are no rational arguments to support it.
many peolple do book self catering around the world, they have no problems and enjoy themselves, and they decide to re book the year after.
i mean just think about this. I am on here appealing for a change in the canary law to allow for legal letting. I do not try to argue that hotels with receptions are wrong and harmful to customers. They are just a holiday accomodation option and long may they continue and prosper.
Free choice for all holiday choices I say.
Residential for residents or long lets
Touristic for tourists or residents
Residential not for tourists
Get it ?
Sundowner
20-12-2011, 23:42
Thought for the day.
Any fool can criticise,condemn and complain and most fools do!
(Benjamin Franklin)
Residential for residents or long lets
Touristic for tourists or residents
Residential not for tourists
Get it ?
yes I think I do. We bought touristic and would not have bought residential. We have no single agent at moment, and at the end of the day if not for canary law, we do not want or need one. But at the end of the day we are touristic so in our case we should be renting to tourists.
arguments for and against tourist letting on wholly residential sites are a bit diferent. Its victor medrews and nimbys. can see both sides of it , when you look at a lovely place like el mirador , right in the tourist zone, supporting bars shops and restuarants built in it, how can all that exist without tourists? can swallows or ex pats fill it up instead of private buy to let renters? What about taxi revenue and island attractions revenues?
Maybe residential needs to be further out of the tourist zones , maybe that would help the victor meldrews and retain valuble tourist revenues?
Arguments about residential/touristic need not be part of the 50 plus one monpoly exploitation debate, its slightly different and could still be there in a future with free legal letting.
Yes it is canary law but it is bonkers daft and completly out of step with the rest of the world. There are no rational arguments to support it.
many peolple do book self catering around the world, they have no problems and enjoy themselves, and they decide to re book the year after.
i mean just think about this. I am on here appealing for a change in the canary law to allow for legal letting. I do not try to argue that hotels with receptions are wrong and harmful to customers. They are just a holiday accomodation option and long may they continue and prosper.
Free choice for all holiday choices I say.
Canarian law doesn't need changed to accommodate legal letting, it already allows it - you just need to stay within the legal guidelines which it lays down.
yes I think I do. We bought touristic and would not have bought residential. We have no single agent at moment, and at the end of the day if not for canary law, we do not want or need one. But at the end of the day we are touristic so in our case we should be renting to tourists.
arguments for and against tourist letting on wholly residential sites are a bit diferent. Its victor medrews and nimbys. can see both sides of it , when you look at a lovely place like el mirador , right in the tourist zone, supporting bars shops and restuarants built in it, how can all that exist without tourists? can swallows or ex pats fill it up instead of private buy to let renters? What about taxi revenue and island attractions revenues?
Maybe residential needs to be further out of the tourist zones , maybe that would help the victor meldrews and retain valuble tourist revenues?
Arguments about residential/touristic need not be part of the 50 plus one monpoly exploitation debate, its slightly different and could still be there in a future with free legal letting.
mmm
So now you appear to be advocating a complete reclassification of complexes based on where they are and presumably irrelevant of who lives where so as to bring your places within the law?
If this is your argument for how change to the law should be implimented then it seems to me that you may be somewhat on your own and have very, very deep pockets.
Suggesting that the many who live in residential complexes, even if just for the winter months, should be forced to sell up or even evicted and moved out of your way to areas away from the coast doesn't seem to be a strategy that will win much support from the islands generally.
You also seem to feel that workers like taxi drivers, to whom you frequently refer, would suffer greatly in this implimentation of the law, yet in a good number of cases you seem to overlook the fact that a lot of private letters offer airport collection and delivery to their customers which is another illegal aspect of their activity and something the taxi drivers would give their back teeth to see stopped. Given they managed to scupper the TITSA plans for an airport bus service so as to continue with their protectionist attitudes, do you really believe they would welcome and support the legalisation of private letting which would be likely to see yet more individuals being privately taken to and from the airport?
Aside from the hotel and associated industries which account for 70 odd percent of the employment and revenue generation on these islands, there are other groups whom you seem to feel would support the scrapping of this law who, if push were to come to shove, is considerably less likely than you seem to believe.
You need to consider that the massive amount of revenue (as you claim) brought to these islands by you and the other private letters is almost all under the counter at the moment and because of that the numbers invloved and the amount of black money exchanging hands does not appear in the official numbers of visitors coming here and the level of financial benefit that generates. You claim, perhaps quite rightly that the benefits to the Government would be substantial if illegal letting were brought above counter, which may well be correct, but you also argue that you do not see why you should conform to the rules on standards which would make a substantial difference to your pocket, as the outlay to meet the standards laid down will be significant and in many cases not be enough to cover the outgoings in terms of mortgages and so on.
For the past 2 years or so, official tourist numbers and associated revenues have been rising month on month as the rest of the world feels it safer to travel here rather than, say Egypt. Not a strong argument for you.
It seems to me that rather than the NIMBY's and Victor Meldrews as you classify people wishing to have a quiet life on a well placed residential complex might view your activities as those of Del Boy or Arfur Daley and welcome the implimentation of the law.
How is your campaign doing anyway, lots of support so far?
Tom & Sharon
21-12-2011, 11:29
yes I think I do. We bought touristic and would not have bought residential. We have no single agent at moment, and at the end of the day if not for canary law, we do not want or need one. But at the end of the day we are touristic so in our case we should be renting to tourists.
arguments for and against tourist letting on wholly residential sites are a bit diferent. Its victor medrews and nimbys. can see both sides of it , when you look at a lovely place like el mirador , right in the tourist zone, supporting bars shops and restuarants built in it, how can all that exist without tourists? can swallows or ex pats fill it up instead of private buy to let renters? What about taxi revenue and island attractions revenues?
Maybe residential needs to be further out of the tourist zones , maybe that would help the victor meldrews and retain valuble tourist revenues?
Arguments about residential/touristic need not be part of the 50 plus one monpoly exploitation debate, its slightly different and could still be there in a future with free legal letting.
Oh sorry, how very selfish of us to clog up a residential apartment on a fully residential complex anywhere near where tourists want to stay in our selfish neighbour's apartments on a short term commercial illegal basis.
Or perhaps we'll just enforce the letting laws as they stand as a community???
I'll get it on the market straight away and move into a tent up Mt Teide so you're able to carry on your Illegal enterprise
willowlily
21-12-2011, 12:38
[QUOTE=Muppet;128219]mmm
So now you appear to be advocating a complete reclassification of complexes based on where they are and presumably irrelevant of who lives where so as to bring your places within the law?
If this is your argument for how change to the law should be implimented then it seems to me that you may be somewhat on your own and have very, very deep pockets.
Suggesting that the many who live in residential complexes, even if just for the winter months, should be forced to sell up or even evicted and moved out of your way to areas away from the coast doesn't seem to be a strategy that will win much support from the islands generally.
You also seem to feel that workers like taxi drivers, to whom you frequently refer, would suffer greatly in this implimentation of the law, yet in a good number of cases you seem to overlook the fact that a lot of private letters offer airport collection and delivery to their customers which is another illegal aspect of their activity and something the taxi drivers would give their back teeth to see stopped. Given they managed to scupper the TITSA plans for an airport bus service so as to continue with their protectionist attitudes, do you really believe they would welcome and support the legalisation of private letting which would be likely to see yet more individuals being privately taken to and from the airport?
Aside from the hotel and associated industries which account for 70 odd percent of the employment and revenue generation on these islands, there are other groups whom you seem to feel would support the scrapping of this law who, if push were to come to shove, is considerably less likely than you seem to believe.
You need to consider that the massive amount of revenue (as you claim) brought to these islands by you and the other private letters is almost all under the counter at the moment and because of that the numbers invloved and the amount of black money exchanging hands does not appear in the official numbers of visitors coming here and the level of financial benefit that generates. You claim, perhaps quite rightly that the benefits to the Government would be substantial if illegal letting were brought above counter, which may well be correct, but you also argue that you do not see why you should conform to the rules on standards which would make a substantial difference to your pocket, as the outlay to meet the standards laid down will be significant and in many cases not be enough to cover the outgoings in terms of mortgages and so on.
For the past 2 years or so, official tourist numbers and associated revenues have been rising month on month as the rest of the world feels it safer to travel here rather than, say Egypt. Not a strong argument for you.
It seems to me that rather than the NIMBY's and Victor Meldrews as you classify people wishing to have a quiet life on a well placed residential complex might view your activities as those of Del Boy or Arfur Daley and welcome the implimentation of the law.
How is your campaign doing anyway, lots of support so far?
/QUOTE]
THERE ARE ALREADY AT LEAST 3 BUSES THAT SERVE BOTH THE NORTH AND SOUTH AIRPORTS FROM LAS AMERICAS / LOS CRISTIANOS ALL TITSA
111,345, 350 SOME OF WHICH HAVE BEEN GOING FOR YEARS
You have a short memory .................
16 April 2008
Angry protests from local taxi drivers has resulted in the Cabildo denying permission for the majority of the 48 bus stops planned for the new Aero bus service.
The taxi drivers were up in arms as the loss of business would seriously threaten the livelihood of the 300 families who depended on the income from airport transfers.
The new service, which commenced last Saturday, operates between the Reina Sofia airport through Los Cristianos, Las Americas ending at La Caleta. The cost is only €5 per person. The idea had hoped to boost tourism by significantly cutting holiday costs for tourists.
The Aero bus is now only allowed 7 stops, the entrance of La Caletta, C.C. El Duque, Costa Adeje, Avenida Chayofita, Av. Gómez Cuesta and the main bus terminal in Las Americas before heading directly to Los Cristianos and the main bus stop outside the Apollo Centre.
Some declare the service is now as much use as a chocolate fire guard and it’s ludicrous to turn down an opportunity to cut holiday costs when there is so much competition in the tourist industry
I wonder how many of the people arguing so strongly for changing this law are also on the taxman's radar for not declaring the income from letting the property out
See HERE (http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?12222-Spanish-Tax-Man-On-The-Warpath&p=128253#post128253) for details
I can see a new thread starting to argue that the Canarian Tax laws need changed as it's unfair on the people who haven't been declaring their income.
Freeliving
21-12-2011, 13:58
Hi. Just a quick question. What if for example you own a property. You live in the property - can you still rent it out short term. We have a house with an annex. So really speaking we are not leaving our propety. If anybody knows anything on this.
Peterrayner
21-12-2011, 14:02
IMHO you can invite anyone to stay in your home.
What you cant do is advertise openly for short lets, without a tourstic licence, on the internet or anywhere else nor can you charge a commercial weekly rent.
You could rent the annexe commercially on a long term rental.
Ecky Thump
21-12-2011, 14:10
Hi. Just a quick question. What if for example you own a property. You live in the property - can you still rent it out short term. We have a house with an annex. So really speaking we are not leaving our propety. If anybody knows anything on this.
If this comes to be correct, I can see apartment owners on a residential complex leaving a set of their own clothes in the apartment and saying that they live there.:dontknow:
willowlily
21-12-2011, 14:25
You have a short memory .................
16 April 2008
Angry protests from local taxi drivers has resulted in the Cabildo denying permission for the majority of the 48 bus stops planned for the new Aero bus service.
The taxi drivers were up in arms as the loss of business would seriously threaten the livelihood of the 300 families who depended on the income from airport transfers.
The new service, which commenced last Saturday, operates between the Reina Sofia airport through Los Cristianos, Las Americas ending at La Caleta. The cost is only €5 per person. The idea had hoped to boost tourism by significantly cutting holiday costs for tourists.
The Aero bus is now only allowed 7 stops, the entrance of La Caletta, C.C. El Duque, Costa Adeje, Avenida Chayofita, Av. Gómez Cuesta and the main bus terminal in Las Americas before heading directly to Los Cristianos and the main bus stop outside the Apollo Centre.
Some declare the service is now as much use as a chocolate fire guard and it’s ludicrous to turn down an opportunity to cut holiday costs when there is so much competition in the tourist industry
everytime i and my visitors use these bus services they are always full of tourists, they do not have 48 stops but cover quite an area of the tourist destinations, i agree with you they should cover a larger area with more stops, but to say these bus services are as much use as a chocolate fireguard is in my opinion and the hundreds of both tourists and residents that use them daily is not helpful
jogger321
21-12-2011, 15:06
everytime i and my visitors use these bus services they are always full of tourists, they do not have 48 stops but cover quite an area of the tourist destinations, i agree with you they should cover a larger area with more stops, but to say these bus services are as much use as a chocolate fireguard is in my opinion and the hundreds of both tourists and residents that use them daily is not helpful
I think the point Muppet was making was not about the Titsa bus service in general (which with a bono card is a terrific way of travelling around the island) but about the scuppered Airport bus service removed by the mafia.
I used it when it was briefly in service. It was a brand new air conditioned bus with internal basket areas to store baggage and stopped at really convenient locations for tourists all the way to La Calleta. It gave tourists an affordable transport option into the tourist centre as an alternative to the mafia
The fact that it was removed by the mafia whilst some may see it as insignificant to my mind made me come to the conclusion that as it stands, as nice as it is Tenerife will never be a really world class tourist destination.
Peterrayner
21-12-2011, 15:22
If this comes to be correct, I can see apartment owners on a residential complex leaving a set of their own clothes in the apartment and saying that they live there.:dontknow:
We have done that for years regardless as it means we can travel with hand luggage only :)
I rented our my apartments on a tourist site for a few years, paid all my income tax etc and was oblivious to the fact that I was doing anything wrong until I read about the situation on here! As I soon as I discovered that I was supposed to be operating through the complex's sole agent I signed my apartments over to them. I now pass on far less money to the taxman ... as I am earning far less. The majority of my clients complain about the poor level of service they receive from the agent compared to when they were dealing directly with me .. the owner. I understand that the agent has a vast number of apartments and clients and can therefore not meet the individual needs of each client. Simple things like allowing them to use the apartment until they have to leave for the airport wherever possible, rather than insisting they be packed and out at 10am .... even if the next guests are not arriving till the evening. All enquiries were answered far more thoroughly and quickly when they came directly to me. I could go on for pages detailing the list of reasons my particular clients received a higher level of service prior to changing to the sole agent. I should also say that I understand why the agent is not in position to pamper to their clients in the way that an owner can. The sheer volume of different apartments and clients the agent is dealing with means they have to standardize (not sure that's a real word!!!) their service. My point is this ............. I appreciate that not all owners were as diligent as I was and believe that this is why the government is clamping down. That old "one bad apple" analogy. But I fail to understand the necessity for a sole agent. I can't understand why apartments (or villas) can not be regulated by the tourist board in the way that they are in coastal areas in Britain for example. Each unit of accommodation is visited once a year by the board to assess whether it is up to standard, whether it is being advertised correctly and charged fairly. An annual fee is paid by the owner and then the owner can advertise the fact that their property is properly regulated. Also owners would have the choice of renting out their property through a variety of agents or by themselves. This sole agency business does seem very unfair as they have a monopoly. Owners have to abide by their way of doing things with very little choice as to how their apartment (which is a huge investment) is looked after. I have heard stories of back handers to ensure certain apartments get more bookings for example. I would love to hear why the sole agency route is considered to be the better route. All I keep hearing is the 24hr reception. Can the cost of the reception on a tourist site not be split amongst the owners and paid through the community fees? What other arguments for a sole agent are there?
Peterrayner
21-12-2011, 15:46
@ Foz
Yes I agree "one bad apple spoils the barrel" .
I wonder also if the old saying "throwing the baby out with the bath water" translates into Spanish ???
I gather that one other reason / justification for the sole agency rule is that it then makes it easier for the inspectors if they receive a complaint regarding a certain complex.
I think the point Muppet was making was not about the Titsa bus service in general (which with a bono card is a terrific way of travelling around the island) but about the scuppered Airport bus service removed by the mafia.
I used it when it was briefly in service. It was a brand new air conditioned bus with internal basket areas to store baggage and stopped at really convenient locations for tourists all the way to La Calleta. It gave tourists an affordable transport option into the tourist centre as an alternative to the mafia
The fact that it was removed by the mafia whilst some may see it as insignificant to my mind made me come to the conclusion that as it stands, as nice as it is Tenerife will never be a really world class tourist destination.
Willow
This precisely the point I was trying to make and if you had read the last few pages of postings you would understand why.
Bottom line is that, according to Nelson at least, the letting law is illegal and protectionist and as part of that he believes he will gain the support of others, especially the taxi "mafia". Their sole existence relies entirely on protectionism.
The reality is that if the airport taxi cartel can effectively force the islands bus service off the road if they see it as threatening their livelyhood and for that matter keep a close watch on every vehicle travelling in and out of the airport watching for too frequent journeys and issue denouncia's where appropriate, they are already aware that a lot of airport pick-ups and drop offs are made illegally by owners of illegally let apartments as part of the illegal "service" offered by the owners.
Added after 5 minutes:
I rented our my apartments on a tourist site for a few years, paid all my income tax etc and was oblivious to the fact that I was doing anything wrong until I read about the situation on here! As I soon as I discovered that I was supposed to be operating through the complex's sole agent I signed my apartments over to them. I now pass on far less money to the taxman ... as I am earning far less. The majority of my clients complain about the poor level of service they receive from the agent compared to when they were dealing directly with me .. the owner. I understand that the agent has a vast number of apartments and clients and can therefore not meet the individual needs of each client. Simple things like allowing them to use the apartment until they have to leave for the airport wherever possible, rather than insisting they be packed and out at 10am .... even if the next guests are not arriving till the evening. All enquiries were answered far more thoroughly and quickly when they came directly to me. I could go on for pages detailing the list of reasons my particular clients received a higher level of service prior to changing to the sole agent. I should also say that I understand why the agent is not in position to pamper to their clients in the way that an owner can. The sheer volume of different apartments and clients the agent is dealing with means they have to standardize (not sure that's a real word!!!) their service. My point is this ............. I appreciate that not all owners were as diligent as I was and believe that this is why the government is clamping down. That old "one bad apple" analogy. But I fail to understand the necessity for a sole agent. I can't understand why apartments (or villas) can not be regulated by the tourist board in the way that they are in coastal areas in Britain for example. Each unit of accommodation is visited once a year by the board to assess whether it is up to standard, whether it is being advertised correctly and charged fairly. An annual fee is paid by the owner and then the owner can advertise the fact that their property is properly regulated. Also owners would have the choice of renting out their property through a variety of agents or by themselves. This sole agency business does seem very unfair as they have a monopoly. Owners have to abide by their way of doing things with very little choice as to how their apartment (which is a huge investment) is looked after. I have heard stories of back handers to ensure certain apartments get more bookings for example. I would love to hear why the sole agency route is considered to be the better route. All I keep hearing is the 24hr reception. Can the cost of the reception on a tourist site not be split amongst the owners and paid through the community fees? What other arguments for a sole agent are there?
A good post, but I am confused. According to Nelson I didn't think there was any control over any tourist letting anywhere else in the world other than in the protectionist controlled Canary Islands.
What an eye opener your post is
@ Foz
Yes I agree "one bad apple spoils the barrel" .
I wonder also if the old saying "throwing the baby out with the bath water" translates into Spanish ???
Thanks for that .... but if each individual apartment were to be registered with the tourist board, then any complaint regarding the accommodation could be aimed directly at the offending owner or their agent (who would also be registered). If the complaint were directed at the complex as a whole then could that not be dealt with by the community? Presumably it being a tourist complex the community would be in charge of keeping the communal areas up to scratch and within the tourist board guidelines of how it should be offered to holiday makers.
This would obviously create lots of jobs within the tourist board which would be paid for via the registration fees paid by the individual owners or their agents.
Added after 6 minutes:
[QUOTE=Muppet;128304]Willow
This precisely the point I was trying to make and if you had read the last few pages of postings you would understand why.
Bottom line is that, according to Nelson at least, the letting law is illegal and protectionist and as part of that he believes he will gain the support of others, especially the taxi "mafia". Their sole existence relies entirely on protectionism.
The reality is that if the airport taxi cartel can effectively force the islands bus service off the road if they see it as threatening their livelyhood and for that matter keep a close watch on every vehicle travelling in and out of the airport watching for too frequent journeys and issue denouncia's where appropriate, they are already aware that a lot of airport pick-ups and drop offs are made illegally by owners of illegally let apartments as part of the illegal "service" offered by the owners.
Added after 5 minutes:
A good post, but I am confused. According to Nelson I didn't think there was any control over any tourist letting anywhere else in the world other than in the protectionist controlled Canary Islands.
What an eye opener your post is
Thanks xxx
To my knowledge .... in Uk, France, Italy and Cyprus (and probably many more countries ... but these are the only ones I know about) an individual can purchase a property and advertise it for short term holiday lets .. so long as they register with the local tourist authorities, follow all their guidelines and declare their income for tax. Properties are inspected on an annual basis and if they fall below par, owners are given a set amount of time to bring them back up to level. If they don't the property loses it's licence to holiday let. "Simples" as the meercats would say!!!
Angusjim
21-12-2011, 16:41
[QUOTE=Peterrayner;128302]@ Foz
Yes I agree "one bad apple spoils the barrel" .
I wonder also if the old saying "throwing the baby out with the bath water" translates into Spanish ???
Thanks for that .... but if each individual apartment were to be registered with the tourist board, then any complaint regarding the accommodation could be aimed directly at the offending owner or their agent (who would also be registered). If the complaint were directed at the complex as a whole then could that not be dealt with by the community? Presumably it being a tourist complex the community would be in charge of keeping the communal areas up to scratch and within the tourist board guidelines of how it should be offered to holiday makers.
This would obviously create lots of jobs within the tourist board which would be paid for via the registration fees paid by the individual owners or their agents.
Sorry Foz you are being far to practical with these suggestions and don't forget its taken them 15 years to enforce the last laws so don't hold your breath for any quick changes. Anyway its easier for them to get one big backhander from the big hotel groups than from lots of individuals :wink:
I had thought that the tourist board was in place to "promote" tourism on this lovely island ... not to make it harder for tourists to find accommodation. Surely diversity is the key. Some holiday makers want 5* hotels others want 1key aparthotels, some want a small cottage in the hills away from it all where they can hike all day, others want a luxury villa with it's own pool. Some want someone to turn to for advise/help every step of the way, others want to be left alone and not speak to another living sole for their entire stay! (Unless they have a problem, when they would contact the 24hr contact number whoever they booked through advised them to put in their mobile and have with them at all times!!!) Tenerife has the wonderful opportunity to offer a vast variety of differing holiday experiences .... BUT the authorities seem to want to limit it to a choice of either a hotel or an aparthotel !! It all seems very short sighted to me. Other countries will prove far more popular to certain sectors of the holiday market.
Janet and I attended a closed “strategy meeting” this morning organized by Tenerife Litigation, a co-operative arrangement between two highly-respected lawyers in south Tenerife, José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz. Joining them was Marcus Cabrera.
The meeting, with some 20 or so very involved or interested parties, was called to clarify the situation to date and discuss strategy for the future. What follows below is an update to the present situation, themes for further defence against the punitive and ferocious fines that are being levied, and ideas for strategies to lobby the Government to amend the 1995 law.
First, I can confirm that the first responses to appeals were received yesterday; this is just the start of the replies so those who are still waiting a response will no doubt receive theirs shortly. The fine has been reduced on first appeal by €3,000; from €18,000 to €15,000. As part of the defence, the lawyers had presented the Terms&Conditions of the websites which were provided by Turismo as evidence of illegal touristic offer; these Terms&Cs said that the websites were not responsible for the content or able to confirm that personal details were correct. Turismo’s response was that this defence was inadmissible because they did not accept websites as evidence ...
This first appeal-response stage is still open, so it is not yet time to appeal to the Courts. The lawyers are still arguing with Turismo and there is a further 15 days in which to submit additional argument to see if the fine can be reduced again. Whatever the result of this process over the next couple of weeks, it will then be time to take appeals to the Courts. As I understand it, the lawyers will now need Power of Attorney from their clients to continue with this stage, so anyone who is implicated needs to confirm what their lawyer specifically needs. Power of Attorney does not require clients to travel to Tenerife: it can be arranged through Embassies in Britain and Ireland.
Before moving on to themes for defence and future strategy to lobby for legal changes, I want to clarify the following points that have come up several times previously as questions from concerned owners:
• This is not a time-limited operation. It is a “Plan Especial” and is not envisaged as being confined to 2011 alone.
• It is not just foreigners who have been fined: there are Spanish, and specifically Canarian, victims too.
• The fine size of €18,000, from a possible range of €1,500 to €30,000, is based on the Government’s opinion that illegal letting is “competencia desleal”, i.e. unfair competition.
• It is unlikely in the extreme, to the point almost of impossibility, that there will be any co-ordination between the Canarian Regional Government’s Tourism Department and the National Government’s Revenue Department. This would not help Turismo even if there were such co-operation because the Hacienda does not know the nature of the income declared as taxable.
Turning now to themes for defence against these fines, the lawyers intend to pursue three main avenues. It is important not to give away too much at present, but the themes will be political, economic and procedural. There is still plenty of scope for legal argument, though the Government’s own intractability is suggested by the puny reduction of the fine by just €3,000. There is still some way to go, however, before the final stage of appeal to the Courts is reached.
Turning finally to the wider issue of strategies to lobby the Government to amend the 1995 law, there is to be a public meeting (as presently planned, anyway) in the last fortnight of January. A local lobby is being organized by some concerned individuals in Santiago del Teide and they hope to bus in representatives from Canarian businesses (taxis, restaurants, etc). It is also hoped that even the southern Mayors (particularly of Arona, Adeje and Santiago del Teide) might attend now that they are beginning to realize the effects this enforcement will almost certainly have on local tourism.
One argument will be that the Government is itself damaging the economy and acting in an unfairly competitive way in terms of all-inclusive hotels. Another claim will be that even within the constraints of the existing law, the Government does not have the right to insist on the type of tourism the islands offer – that there is an implicit right for, say, groups of naturists, gay tourists, “eco” tourists, to holiday in a way that is not offered either by touristic apartments or hotels, of whatever star category.
To end, the lawyers had clear advice for owners who feel they have no choice but to continue to advertise while this lobbying is going on. That advice is firstly to remove any suggestion from adverts of a touristic offer: not just “holidays”, but “touristic services”, including cleaning, safe storage boxes, airport transfers etc. Secondly, for those with clearly touristic adverts, to write to the administrators of any websites hosting their adverts and say that you do not agree with what is reproduced in your name and that all your letting conforms to the Urban Letting Law – i.e. that you are only offering residential lets. It will be essential to keep a copy, and to send the original by registered mail for proof of delivery: here, there is also the facility of Burofaxes which prove what was actually in the letter sent.
I’m sorry this has been such an essay but both TF and TTF believe that this is such an important issue, and the information we supply in this respect is so vital, that people must be fully and accurately informed. Please note that this is copywritten material and may not be reproduced in full or in part without written permission from the author.
PS Thanks to Janet ******** for drafting this post - we have agreed to do joint posts in future on any important matters relating to the above :)
Ok very interesting , thanks for the update :
Point 1: why would everyone need to send letters to the "owners direct" style websites saying their adverts are for long let's only and in accordance with the urban rental laws when tourismo does not accept websites as evidence?
Point 2 - anyone doing that will need to remove mentions of weekly pricing thus rendering their advert completely useless - might as well remove them.
Point 3 - gay, Eco and everyone else is allowed to stay in any accommodation already without prejudice, there are Eco friendly factors within the oct 2010 laws that accommodations have to adhere to, how are "illegal units" offering anything more Eco friendly or more
Gay friendly than the law already demands?
Added after 18 minutes:
Also if we're assuming that the government lawyers are talking rubbish when they say they don't take evidence from websites ..... Surely any advert on a website called holiday lettings . Co. Uk is fragrantly offering holiday accommodation because THAT'S WHAT THAT WEBSITE IS ALL ABOUT
Janet and I attended a closed “strategy meeting” this morning organized by Tenerife Litigation, a co-operative arrangement between two highly-respected lawyers in south Tenerife, José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz. Joining them was Marcus Cabrera.
The meeting, with some 20 or so very involved or interested parties, was called to clarify the situation to date and discuss strategy for the future. What follows below is an update to the present situation, themes for further defence against the punitive and ferocious fines that are being levied, and ideas for strategies to lobby the Government to amend the 1995 law.
First, I can confirm that the first responses to appeals were received yesterday; this is just the start of the replies so those who are still waiting a response will no doubt receive theirs shortly. The fine has been reduced on first appeal by €3,000; from €18,000 to €15,000. As part of the defence, the lawyers had presented the Terms&Conditions of the websites which were provided by Turismo as evidence of illegal touristic offer; these Terms&Cs said that the websites were not responsible for the content or able to confirm that personal details were correct. Turismo’s response was that this defence was inadmissible because they did not accept websites as evidence ...
This first appeal-response stage is still open, so it is not yet time to appeal to the Courts. The lawyers are still arguing with Turismo and there is a further 15 days in which to submit additional argument to see if the fine can be reduced again. Whatever the result of this process over the next couple of weeks, it will then be time to take appeals to the Courts. As I understand it, the lawyers will now need Power of Attorney from their clients to continue with this stage, so anyone who is implicated needs to confirm what their lawyer specifically needs. Power of Attorney does not require clients to travel to Tenerife: it can be arranged through Embassies in Britain and Ireland.
Before moving on to themes for defence and future strategy to lobby for legal changes, I want to clarify the following points that have come up several times previously as questions from concerned owners:
• This is not a time-limited operation. It is a “Plan Especial” and is not envisaged as being confined to 2011 alone.
• It is not just foreigners who have been fined: there are Spanish, and specifically Canarian, victims too.
• The fine size of €18,000, from a possible range of €1,500 to €30,000, is based on the Government’s opinion that illegal letting is “competencia desleal”, i.e. unfair competition.
• It is unlikely in the extreme, to the point almost of impossibility, that there will be any co-ordination between the Canarian Regional Government’s Tourism Department and the National Government’s Revenue Department. This would not help Turismo even if there were such co-operation because the Hacienda does not know the nature of the income declared as taxable.
Turning now to themes for defence against these fines, the lawyers intend to pursue three main avenues. It is important not to give away too much at present, but the themes will be political, economic and procedural. There is still plenty of scope for legal argument, though the Government’s own intractability is suggested by the puny reduction of the fine by just €3,000. There is still some way to go, however, before the final stage of appeal to the Courts is reached.
Turning finally to the wider issue of strategies to lobby the Government to amend the 1995 law, there is to be a public meeting (as presently planned, anyway) in the last fortnight of January. A local lobby is being organized by some concerned individuals in Santiago del Teide and they hope to bus in representatives from Canarian businesses (taxis, restaurants, etc). It is also hoped that even the southern Mayors (particularly of Arona, Adeje and Santiago del Teide) might attend now that they are beginning to realize the effects this enforcement will almost certainly have on local tourism.
One argument will be that the Government is itself damaging the economy and acting in an unfairly competitive way in terms of all-inclusive hotels. Another claim will be that even within the constraints of the existing law, the Government does not have the right to insist on the type of tourism the islands offer – that there is an implicit right for, say, groups of naturists, gay tourists, “eco” tourists, to holiday in a way that is not offered either by touristic apartments or hotels, of whatever star category.
To end, the lawyers had clear advice for owners who feel they have no choice but to continue to advertise while this lobbying is going on. That advice is firstly to remove any suggestion from adverts of a touristic offer: not just “holidays”, but “touristic services”, including cleaning, safe storage boxes, airport transfers etc. Secondly, for those with clearly touristic adverts, to write to the administrators of any websites hosting their adverts and say that you do not agree with what is reproduced in your name and that all your letting conforms to the Urban Letting Law – i.e. that you are only offering residential lets. It will be essential to keep a copy, and to send the original by registered mail for proof of delivery: here, there is also the facility of Burofaxes which prove what was actually in the letter sent.
I’m sorry this has been such an essay but both TF and TTF believe that this is such an important issue, and the information we supply in this respect is so vital, that people must be fully and accurately informed. Please note that this is copywritten material and may not be reproduced in full or in part without written permission from the author.
PS Thanks to Janet ******** for drafting this post - we have agreed to do joint posts in future on any important matters relating to the above :)
I wish I'd been at the meeting!! Thank you soooo much for attending and for relaying all this info to us. I'll be very interested to hear more about the meeting intended for the end of January.. BIG thanks once again xx
Also if we're assuming that the government lawyers are talking rubbish when they say they don't take evidence from websites ..... Surely any advert on a website called holiday lettings . Co. Uk is fragrantly offering holiday accommodation because THAT'S WHAT THAT WEBSITE IS ALL ABOUT
Ok very interesting , thanks for the update :
Point 1: why would everyone need to send letters to the "owners direct" style websites saying their adverts are for long let's only and in accordance with the urban rental laws when tourismo does not accept websites as evidence?
Point 2 - anyone doing that will need to remove mentions of weekly pricing thus rendering their advert completely useless - might as well remove them.
Point 3 - gay, Eco and everyone else is allowed to stay in any accommodation already without prejudice, there are Eco friendly factors within the oct 2010 laws that accommodations have to adhere to, how are "illegal units" offering anything more Eco friendly or more
Gay friendly than the law already demands?
Added after 18 minutes:
Also if we're assuming that the government lawyers are talking rubbish when they say they don't take evidence from websites ..... Surely any advert on a website called holiday lettings . Co. Uk is fragrantly offering holiday accommodation because THAT'S WHAT THAT WEBSITE IS ALL ABOUT
It's all about strict proofs, Loaded ... and lawyers being lawyers look for ways to protect their clients :)
Also, they didn't seem to rule out the mention of weekly rentals, just any mention of Tourist Services, such as cleaning: it is all a very grey area, for they felt the law did not mention 3 months as the minimum time span.
It is obviously up to each owner to decide what risk they are prepared to take and whether they will continue with (currently) illegal letting.
So how can anyone appeal against the major charge of no 'libro de reclamaciones' available and no sign saying that there is a libro available. The majority of fines are not for illegal renting. How can there be an appeal against something so clearly defined in Spanish Law that it has been used so that there can be no appeal.
So how can anyone appeal against the major charge of no 'libro de reclamaciones' available and no sign saying that there is a libro available. The majority of fines are not for illegal renting. How can there be an appeal against something so clearly defined in Spanish Law that it has been used so that there can be no appeal.
There was talk about the inappropriateness of the amount of the fine ... the actual point about the Libros did not come up. The fact that, after written appeal, the fines have already been reduced by an amount, however small, was seen as promising.
Tmfkahs has a very good point, and this brings us back to a few weeks ago when the fines stopped
Being for tourist letting and were instead for not having signs and paperwork they could never have, the lawyers have their work cut out here.
Thank you Doreen, very good minutes from the meeting.
Personally I was not very impressed by the arguments from the lawyer; people cannot pay there mortgage anymore, bad for the restaurants, taxis, etc.
Sometimes it was even contradictory to what was said earlier. As an argument to change the law the lawyer said that people had bought a property in Tenerife as an investment without knowing that it is not allowed to rent out touristically. However he informed the owners present earlier that they should not write a letter to the tourist board admitting the offence with the argument that they were not aware of this law. This is of course correct, but also counting for the buyer of a property.
I am not sure that the arguments given were all valid. We must also take into account that Mr. José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz were there to sell their business and also that they were not able (as admitted in the meeting) to change this law in the nineties. From my profession, I can say that the fast majority of the owners in residential complexes do not like it that owners rent out their property touristically. Most of them do care more about the rent, than about the behaviour of the renters and thus their neighbours. Next to that, and I know that it sounds generalizing, but they are above average represented on the debtors lists. We have been requested several times in a general meeting, and by a big majority, to report the short term renters at the tourist board.
The weakest link for the government is in my opinion that they penalized many short term renters with the internet as only source of evidence. I am very curious how this will all develop.
I rented our my apartments on a tourist site for a few years, paid all my income tax etc and was oblivious to the fact that I was doing anything wrong until I read about the situation on here! As I soon as I discovered that I was supposed to be operating through the complex's sole agent I signed my apartments over to them. I now pass on far less money to the taxman ... as I am earning far less. The majority of my clients complain about the poor level of service they receive from the agent compared to when they were dealing directly with me .. the owner. I understand that the agent has a vast number of apartments and clients and can therefore not meet the individual needs of each client. Simple things like allowing them to use the apartment until they have to leave for the airport wherever possible, rather than insisting they be packed and out at 10am .... even if the next guests are not arriving till the evening. All enquiries were answered far more thoroughly and quickly when they came directly to me. I could go on for pages detailing the list of reasons my particular clients received a higher level of service prior to changing to the sole agent. I should also say that I understand why the agent is not in position to pamper to their clients in the way that an owner can. The sheer volume of different apartments and clients the agent is dealing with means they have to standardize (not sure that's a real word!!!) their service. My point is this ............. I appreciate that not all owners were as diligent as I was and believe that this is why the government is clamping down. That old "one bad apple" analogy. But I fail to understand the necessity for a sole agent. I can't understand why apartments (or villas) can not be regulated by the tourist board in the way that they are in coastal areas in Britain for example. Each unit of accommodation is visited once a year by the board to assess whether it is up to standard, whether it is being advertised correctly and charged fairly. An annual fee is paid by the owner and then the owner can advertise the fact that their property is properly regulated. Also owners would have the choice of renting out their property through a variety of agents or by themselves. This sole agency business does seem very unfair as they have a monopoly. Owners have to abide by their way of doing things with very little choice as to how their apartment (which is a huge investment) is looked after. I have heard stories of back handers to ensure certain apartments get more bookings for example. I would love to hear why the sole agency route is considered to be the better route. All I keep hearing is the 24hr reception. Can the cost of the reception on a tourist site not be split amongst the owners and paid through the community fees? What other arguments for a sole agent are there?Are the nominations for thread of the year still open,because,at last we have someone with total common sense stating REAL FACTS,about the real scandle of the monopolies of the sole letting agents,this post relates to an owner ,who for those of you who bleat,on and on about tax avoidance,pays their dues,FOZ well said you,ve moved the debate forward,look forward to the replies
This is what happens on a couple of touristic complexes and hotels i maintain
At least once a week the CNP pass by to ask for a list of people currently staying there
I believe this happens all over but can not confirm that it happens everywhere
They go to one person on a 24hr reception
For example Imagine going to "250" different apartments in el Mirador
Seem like quite a waste of time no?
This is what happens on a couple of touristic complexes and hotels i maintain
At least once a week the CNP pass by to ask for a list of people currently staying there
I believe this happens all over but can not confirm that it happens everywhere
They go to one person on a 24hr reception
For example Imagine going to "250" different apartments in el Mirador
Seem like quite a waste of time no?CNP please enlighten??
Cuerpo Nacional de Policía
[QUOTE=9PLUS;128462]This is what happens on a couple of touristic complexes and hotels i maintain
At least once a week the CNP pass by to ask for a list of people currently staying there
I believe this happens all over but can not confirm that it happens everywhere
They go to one person on a 24hr reception
For example Imagine going to "250" different apartments in el Mirador
Seem like quite a waste of time no?[/QUOT
Please excuse my ignorance but ... why do they need to do this?
Cuerpo Nacional de PolicíaSo your saying that The Island that I love,s police is going around all hotels and "tourist apartments" checking on who,s staying there,please ,you really are saying that the police are going around a tourist destination,checking ,who,s staying where, Maybe time to look elsewhere,just to be safe
You used have to technically hand over your passport as you arrive for it to be registered with the Police - remember the Atocha massacre (Madrid, 2004) - that's the reason you can no longer buy a mobile phone off the shelf with no paperwork or fly into Spain without first having notified your passport number.
Thank you Doreen, very good minutes from the meeting.
Personally I was not very impressed by the arguments from the lawyer; people cannot pay there mortgage anymore, bad for the restaurants, taxis, etc.
Sometimes it was even contradictory to what was said earlier. As an argument to change the law the lawyer said that people had bought a property in Tenerife as an investment without knowing that it is not allowed to rent out touristically. However he informed the owners present earlier that they should not write a letter to the tourist board admitting the offence with the argument that they were not aware of this law. This is of course correct, but also counting for the buyer of a property.
I am not sure that the arguments given were all valid. We must also take into account that Mr. José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz were there to sell their business and also that they were not able (as admitted in the meeting) to change this law in the nineties. From my profession, I can say that the fast majority of the owners in residential complexes do not like it that owners rent out their property touristically. Most of them do care more about the rent, than about the behaviour of the renters and thus their neighbours. Next to that, and I know that it sounds generalizing, but they are above average represented on the debtors lists. We have been requested several times in a general meeting, and by a big majority, to report the short term renters at the tourist board.
The weakest link for the government is in my opinion that they penalized many short term renters with the internet as only source of evidence. I am very curious how this will all develop.
René, the most thanks go to Janet for the Minutes ... and we did omit some details of their legal strategy. Of course, the lawyers are open to taking on more business - from personal knowledge, I have to say they are a strong line-up.
And of course, there is also the issue of whether planning law can just be retrospectively changed, ignoring the rights of property owners who thought they were buying on purely Residential complexes :)
You used have to technically hand over your passport as you arrive for it to be registered with the Police - remember the Atocha massacre (Madrid, 2004) - that's the reason you can no longer buy a mobile phone off the shelf with no paperwork or fly into Spain without first having notified your passport number.Doreen,its 2011 are you really saying that in this climate, tourists should expect pre,communist checks in a tourist destination,because if things have gone that bad in Tenerife then you are all ******
Doreen,its 2011 are you really saying that in this climate, tourists should expect pre,communist checks in a tourist destination,because if things have gone that bad in Tenerife then you are all ******
Probably should be a thread on it's own ... Tenerife is part of Spain, and Spain has always had a terrorist problem of one kind or another. Luckily, it affects us little in the Canaries. - but that doesn't mean they are not going to do the paperwork.
welshman
22-12-2011, 00:48
People Power as the old Dylan song Times they are a changing:goodluck::goodluck:
seanocelt
22-12-2011, 01:08
The passport thing is a bit off topic and worth a thread. Always have to fill in pre travel info from Ireland with Aer Lingus, whether it be here, Lanzarote or Majorca, over past 4 years. Annoying but hey, when i lived in Florida i had to have photo ID for the most silly little things.........it may well be nearly 2012 but feels like the book 1984.
On reading Doreen's update and continually seeing people's replies/incredulation at the impact of the laws/fines i would add, as i stated on the former forum over a year ago, the hotel lobby groups can influence governments and seduce them with promises/withdrawal threats, of jobs, investment capital...all the mouth watering promises politicos love, so holiday lets in holiday apartments matter not one one jot (to them). And yet, on this second huge thread ,people keep coming on looking for loopholes and arguing its fairness. Quite right they may be, but IT DOESNT MATTER. (again, to them, the authorities). Another point, rather a question; how much are lawyers charging to appeal the fines?My guess, is....a lot.
Appealing the fines is the right way to go, of that there is no doubt, but as pointed out to those who have been here bemoaning their individual positions, it has already been said by many that they should have very deep pockets and be prepared to be in for the long haul.
I would also suggest that appealing the fines is the only way that a debate on the affects for those involved is brought to the attention of those who made the law and presumably still support it - the Politicians.
I see a few fine reductions for those who appeal coming through, as seems to be the case already, but I just cannot see a revocation of the law, or major changes to the law as a result. Courts always turn to case-law for guidence in difficult and controversial rulings and in this case the case-law referred to will be that of the challenges already ruled upon in the European courts when aspects of this law were challenged previously. I do see a review of the position of villas and perhaps modifications/clarification to the 50+1 part, but fundemantal change - no.
Any major shift in position by the Government is only likely if they conclude the law stands in the way of progressing their long term plans for the Island(s) and you only have to look at the way they have pushed forward to the 5* leisure break industry and away from the younger Veronicas tourists of 15 years ago and they seem hell-bent on taking this route.
In law there is protection for the rights of individuals to enjoy a peaceful life style, and tourists on residential complexes would seem to fly in the face of individuals rights for a given quality of life.
All in all a hell of an uphill struggle for those caught up in this, but then they were aware of the risks (or should have been) for many years.
The situation of tourists having to effectively register details of their movements is nothing new, especially in this age of international terrorism, and as above, has nothing really to do with the implimentation of the letting laws although, of course, this kind of information gathering can be used in other areas.
A long and expensive battle me thinks
rkennedy
22-12-2011, 11:14
All in all a hell of an uphill struggle for those caught up in this, but then they were aware of the risks (or should have been) for many years.
A long and expensive battle me thinks
I have been following this for many years now even before the inspectors started moving in. About 5 years ago we were interested in looking at purchasing a retirement (no letting) flat in Tenerife and trawled the forum for advice and information - and we did receive a lot of good advice. What stuck in my mind at the time was everyone was talking about "illegal lettings" as they were either wanting to buy on a residential community or had purchased on what was designated a residential community or were purchasing with the aim of letting. Those who purchased and did not wish to let (that's why they bought on a "residential" site) were most aggrieved that they thought they were buying or had bought on a residential community (the developer in most cases had said it was residential) and were finding that it was not the case with all the "illegal" letting going on.
Many posters giving advice at that time (and they are still replying in this forum in this thread) advised that potential buyers who wanted to rent out should not worry about letting as the authorities were turning a blind eye and anyway just say that "they were your relations and friends". They went on to say that it had been tested in the courts that you could legally let to "friends and relations". I am sure that many potential buyers at that time heeded the advice of the developers and the posters on this forum and went ahead and purchased with the view to letting to help pay the outgoings. We did not purchase, thank God, as I perceived this to be a very grey area and anyway we wanted to be sure our purchase would be a truly residential community.
I have no axe to grind either way on the rights or wrongs of the current situation (I can see good arguments from both sides) other than to say some recent buyers may have been misled by the developers (and may have a claim if this can be proved and if they are still in existence??). The Laurel & Hardy saying comes to mind here: "another fine mess you have got us into, Ollie"
Most buyers, if they had done their homework, would have been aware of the law but in the end it was their choice to disregard it if they wanted to let their property. Heaven knows where this will end but people letting on residential communities cannot complain now - most knew the legal situation.
Peterrayner
22-12-2011, 11:30
Another point, rather a question; how much are lawyers charging to appeal the fines?My guess, is....a lot.
I understand from a neighbour its in the region of 800E for the local lawyers.
7000 fines X 800 = 5,600,000E.
A good post, rkennedy ... and indeed, I was one of the few voices saying "it's illegal and don't risk it" and took some grief from said posters who have now seen the light.
Answering an earlier query - the initial legal fee I understand is just short of 900 euros .... seeing as fines are already reduced by 3.000, it would seem worthwhile.
rkennedy
22-12-2011, 12:19
... and indeed, I was one of the few voices saying "it's illegal and don't risk it" and took some grief from said posters who have now seen the light.
Yes, yours was one of the few voices who had a contrarian (at that time) viewpoint. I remember well the howls of anguish from many posters who said you were wrong. What are they saying now? Come on, some of you still post on this thread.
Yes, yours was one of the few voices who had a contrarian (at that time) viewpoint. I remember well the howls of anguish from many posters who said you were wrong. What are they saying now? Come on, some of you still post on this thread.
I'm not sure what purpose it would serve to drag that all up now ... whatever about suing professional advisors for their past (negligent) advice, no action could be brought against online posters :)
It is now a complete mess, and mindful of people who have invested heavily (and wrongly), I hope we can offer whatever advice necessary to help them make a decision as to how to proceed, be it to cut their losses or try to continue on letting, fully informed of the risks.
The great thing about the law this time round is that there is a way of conveying things easiet via the forum, blogs, etc.....
Back in 95 it was all word and mouth and newspaper articles...... very hard to get points across.
It would seem a few have decided to carry on advertising holiday lets still a few for Dinastia ect in Holiday lettings/owners abroad ect do you think these people know about the law?but just carrying on because they need to pay the mortgage or can there still be people out there who dont know whats going on. David
It would seem a few have decided to carry on advertising holiday lets still a few for Dinastia ect in Holiday lettings/owners abroad ect do you think these people know about the law?but just carrying on because they need to pay the mortgage or can there still be people out there who dont know whats going on. David
Sadly, I think there are people who still do not know :( The lawyers yesterday held up a letter that was sent by the Inspectorate to the President of one complex - it reiterated that short term letting was illegal (mentioning the scale of fines) and asked that a copy be sent to each owner ... I do not know if this has been sent to many complexes.
Sadly, I think there are people who still do not know :( The lawyers yesterday held up a letter that was sent by the Inspectorate to the President of one complex - it reiterated that short term letting was illegal (mentioning the scale of fines) and asked that a copy be sent to each owner ... I do not know if this has been sent to many complexes.
Would you know how I could obtain a copy of that letter as I am trying to convince owners on the complex where I am ... and many are still burying their head in the sand. An official letter like this may help to enlighten them.
Angusjim
22-12-2011, 13:55
Sadly, I think there are people who still do not know :( The lawyers yesterday held up a letter that was sent by the Inspectorate to the President of one complex - it reiterated that short term letting was illegal (mentioning the scale of fines) and asked that a copy be sent to each owner ... I do not know if this has been sent to many complexes.
Does anyone know if a similar letter has ever been sent out before in any of the 15 years since they made the law ?
Would you know how I could obtain a copy of that letter as I am trying to convince owners on the complex where I am ... and many are still burying their head in the sand. An official letter like this may help to enlighten them.
Why not send/inform them of the link to the boletins so they can clearly see the fines.
seanocelt
22-12-2011, 14:20
Does anyone know if a similar letter has ever been sent out before in any of the 15 years since they made the law ?
Pretty sure no letters sent then.The local UK media gave it a few pages in 95, but it just as quickly went off the radar for...............15 years?!
Peterrayner
22-12-2011, 15:01
I was one of the few voices saying "it's illegal and don't risk it" and took some grief from said posters who have now seen the light.
I for one dont recall giving you any "grief" Doreen. Rather expressing a contrary personal opinion based on facts as I understood them and there were several forum discussions as such with others who where also in favour of the law.
Why not send/inform them of the link to the boletins so they can clearly see the fines.
Yes .. I have included that x I'm trying to get as much info together as possible to send to every owner on the complex. I've been surprised by how many people are suspicious of any information sourced on the internet!! Also, how many scoff at the fines until they are applied to someone they actually know !! Quite a few still think that anyone who has been fined must have done something far more heinous than just illegally letting their holiday homes!!!!
Tmfkahs has a very good point, and this brings us back to a few weeks ago when the fines stopped
Being for tourist letting and were instead for not having signs and paperwork they could never have, the lawyers have their work cut out here.
Provided they are letting within the rules laid down in the law, they can have the paperwork - it's only unavailable if you are not letting legally.
[QUOTE=BobMac;128645]Provided they are letting within the rules laid down in the law, they can have the paperwork QUOTE]
I think the paperwork required would not be given to an individual owner!
The new Spanish Minister for Industry and Commerce is a Canarian ... Jose Manuel Soria ... he spoke today of hopes to grow the Tourist Sector .... hopefully, the Canarian Government will follow his lead :)
So your saying that The Island that I love,s police is going around all hotels and "tourist apartments" checking on who,s staying there,please ,you really are saying that the police are going around a tourist destination,checking ,who,s staying where, Maybe time to look elsewhere,just to be safe
Because it's still in this thread
Apparently ALL touristic accommodation and Rent-A-Car businesses.
Are obliged by Law to inform the Police (CNP) on the arrival of everybody who stays with them or rents a motor car/bike etc.
Both types of business have a unique code and password that is for their registered business and links directly to the CNP Database.
Because it's still in this thread
Apparently ALL touristic accommodation and Rent-A-Car businesses.
Are obliged by Law to inform the Police (CNP) on the arrival of everybody who stays with them or rents a motor car/bike etc.
Both types of business have a unique code and password that is for their registered business and links directly to the CNP Database.
there is nothing new in this practice, all spanish hotels have for years sent the police details of all people booking in. this has been a part of spanish law going back many years and has nothing to do with recent terorist attacks or new terorist threats.
If private renting by individuals becomes legal, owners can still get this data to the spanish police. Our first management company, not sole agent, did leave forms in our apartments for guests to fill in with their details and passport numbers. Pretty big brother yes, but this is spain, the two police forces have a diferent style to uk/Ireland forces and diferent history.
You may be waiting a long time
You may be waiting a long time
well yes maybe. but all injustices come to an end eventually. poland got rid of communism, remember Lech Walesa, took decades but in the end freedom. Look at the arabs this year, a year ago did we know Gadaffi would be dead today, his time and regime over? Look at those poor people in North Korea this week, publicly wailing to show grief for their dead dear leader. Even their suffering will end at some point, freedom will come, things will change.
yes it may take time, and we can not know the timetable, but this hugely unfair and unnecsary law will come to an end , injustices in this world always do. Only freedon endures.
Santiago
22-12-2011, 23:42
there is nothing new in this practice, all spanish hotels have for years sent the police details of all people booking in. this has been a part of spanish law going back many years and has nothing to do with recent terorist attacks or new terorist threats.
If private renting by individuals becomes legal, owners can still get this data to the spanish police. Our first management company, not sole agent, did leave forms in our apartments for guests to fill in with their details and passport numbers. Pretty big brother yes, but this is spain, the two police forces have a diferent style to uk/Ireland forces and diferent history.
This information goes through to the Spanish authorities anyway because you have to give the details before you fly out to Spanish owned territories. All the authorities would have to do is insist that the name of your apartment/villa was included in this information. At the moment, if you book a flight only deal and stay privately, then the authorities only know that you have arrived on the island. They have no idea where you have gone, or even if you have moved to another island.
well yes maybe. but all injustices come to an end eventually. poland got rid of communism, remember Lech Walesa, took decades but in the end freedom. Look at the arabs this year, a year ago did we know Gadaffi would be dead today, his time and regime over? Look at those poor people in North Korea this week, publicly wailing to show grief for their dead dear leader. Even their suffering will end at some point, freedom will come, things will change.
yes it may take time, and we can not know the timetable, but this hugely unfair and unnecsary law will come to an end , injustices in this world always do. Only freedon endures.
Yes indeed, the Arab spring, polish activists , the passing of king Jong il and the fall of communism are all comparable to the plight of Nelson and the owners on sur y sol and el mirador.
I'm surprised you didnt mention sister rosa Lee parks, Ann Frank and the children of darfur in your monologue too.
Felt a bit braveheart at the end too
slodgedad
23-12-2011, 00:15
Yes indeed, the Arab spring, polish activists , the passing of king Jong il and the fall of communism are all comparable to the plight of Nelson and the owners on sur y sol and el mirador.
I'm surprised you didnt mention sister rosa Lee parks, Ann Frank and the children of darfur in your monologue too.
Felt a bit braveheart at the end too
Don't think I'll bother having a holiday if I have to do all that...quote; Spring an Arab, polish an activist and fight KIng Kong.
Sod it. I'm going to Cornwall..
well yes maybe. but all injustices come to an end eventually. poland got rid of communism, remember Lech Walesa, took decades but in the end freedom. Look at the arabs this year, a year ago did we know Gadaffi would be dead today, his time and regime over? Look at those poor people in North Korea this week, publicly wailing to show grief for their dead dear leader. Even their suffering will end at some point, freedom will come, things will change.
yes it may take time, and we can not know the timetable, but this hugely unfair and unnecsary law will come to an end , injustices in this world always do. Only freedon endures.
Oh my God How embarrassing
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