Chillcot enquiry delayed

[willowlily]

I do not think anyone is really surprised about the delaying tactics of all our political parties.
the gates of hell were opened when we meddled in a country where our politicians did not understand the dynamics of the culture and politics in managing Iraq and its people.

[helena246]

I do not think anyone is really surprised about the delaying tactics of all our political parties.
the gates of hell were opened when we meddled in a country where our politicians did not understand the dynamics of the culture and politics in managing Iraq and its people.


I believe all wars in the middle east since are in part because of the decision to go to war with Iraq, it will make interesting reading WHEN and IF we ever see the chillcot report in FULL

[martincrabb99]

One thing for sure is that Saddam Hussein was responsible for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of the deaths of his own people and sometimes really tough decisions have to be taken as to whether to act or not to act. Was it the right decision?

[martincrabb99]

I believe all wars in the middle east since are in part because of the decision to go to war with Iraq, it will make interesting reading WHEN and IF we ever see the chillcot report in FULL

I think a lot of correspondence between heads of state and intelligence services will be the subject of redaction. It certainly will be interesting reading when published.

[willowlily]

One thing for sure is that Saddam Hussein was responsible for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of the deaths of his own people and sometimes really tough decisions have to be taken as to whether to act or not to act. Was it the right decision?


hi martin you say that but how do we really know and who do we believe. it was in the interest of our and the US government to paint saddam in the worst possible light, I am not saying he was a perfect leader but he held the country together, something we and the US can not do no matter how many soldiers and arms we have at our disposal.

[marbro8]

hi martin you say that but how do we really know and who do we believe. it was in the interest of our and the US government to paint saddam in the worst possible light, I am not saying he was a perfect leader but he held the country together, something we and the US can not do no matter how many soldiers and arms we have at our disposal.there is no way that the people of iraq, or any other middle eastern countries, would ever accept anything to do with westerners meddling in their futures, they have completely different attitudes and cultures, as you say saddam kept the country stable, after he was deposed all it did was leave a void that was filled by terrorists and extremists , i think tony blair was ill advised, and it has bit us on the a@@e, i know it sounds heartless and cold but i would have much rather he still be in charge and ruling with an iron fist than having to keep watching over my shoulder and worrying about friends and loved ones being blown up:angry:

[TOTO 99]

I think it's not being brainwashed or far fetched to think that Saddam and his kids did a huge amount of damage to the people of Iraq, whether it be gassing, murdering, torturing, whatever, and I sincerely hope that if I'm ever in that terrible predicament somebody with the power to help would do so.
Maybe it was sold to us wrongly but someone needed to eliminate the risk of Stoneage tyrants having modern day weapons.

Now having said that, I would add that I'll be absolutely thrilled if Mr Blair gets a prison sentence for his antics. How anyone who has signed off on so many young soldiers lives as he has can strut about making millions from the speaking circuit and whatever else he slimes his way into is beyond me. I don't think I'd ever want to be seen in public again. He should be ashamed of himself.....

[martincrabb99]

hi martin you say that but how do we really know and who do we believe. it was in the interest of our and the US government to paint saddam in the worst possible light, I am not saying he was a perfect leader but he held the country together, something we and the US can not do no matter how many soldiers and arms we have at our disposal.

I personally feel that we could not stand by and do nothing and yes we are reliant on the information provided to us and based on that information I hold the view that intervention was the right thing to do. One thing which has not cropped up so far in this discussion topic and perhaps another reason why intervention took place......Oil.

[Ecky Thump]

I personally feel that we could not stand by and do nothing and yes we are reliant on the information provided to us and based on that information I hold the view that intervention was the right thing to do. One thing which has not cropped up so far in this discussion topic and perhaps another reason why intervention took place......OIL

Oh you old cynic, as if GB and the good old USofA would declare war on a country out of self interest.:wink:

[Tshirt]

It's the families of the 179 British service personnel who died in Iraq that I feel sorry for. They'll feel even worse if eventually they find out the war in Iraq wasn't justified.

Politician: Someone who sends other people's kids to war.

[Ecky Thump]

It's the families of the 179 British service personnel who died in Iraq that I feel sorry for. They'll feel even worse if eventually they find out the war in Iraq wasn't justified.

Politician: Someone who sends other people's kids to war.


My son was serving there and he knew that it was in a large part due to oil controls.

[warbey]

It's the families of the 179 British service personnel who died in Iraq that I feel sorry for. They'll feel even worse if eventually they find out the war in Iraq wasn't justified.

Politician: Someone who sends other people's kids to war.

I often wonder who won WW Two...............

It seems Saddam was able to govern Irag by methods We abhor as savage and Primitive.

Perhaps that is needed for Peace in the Area, not more bloody do-gooders.

We here are supposed to live in a Democracy????

Are We really, as a Nation, any better? I think not.......

[martincrabb99]

I often wonder who won WW Two...............

It seems Saddam was able to govern Irag by methods We abhor as savage and Primitive.

Perhaps that is needed for Peace in the Area, not more bloody do-gooders.

We here are supposed to live in a Democracy????

Are We really, as a Nation, any better? I think not.......

The humanitarian reasons why our Armed forces were deployed to Iraq should not be forgotten in the clamour to apportion blame to Tony Blair.....
It's a good job reports were. Not written about the First World War, the Second World War and other conflicts......we would still be waiting!!

[Ecky Thump]

It seems Saddam was able to govern Irag by methods We abhor as savage and Primitive.

Perhaps that is needed for Peace in the Area, not more bloody do-gooders.
..

The dilemma for me with that theory, is how far do we go with it.....let it run in our own country, where we would then have knife & gun yielding yobs and murders in control under the guise of leadership, I think Britain was morally right to make a stand against tyranny.???

[willowlily]

The dilemma for me with that theory, is how far do we go with it.....let it run in our own country, where we would then have knife & gun yielding yobs and murders in control under the guise of leadership, I think Britain was morally right to make a stand against tyranny.???


I get sick of our politicians putting their big fat ugly noses in other countries business, they are ignorant and over estimate their knowledge if they think they know how better to run these very culturally different nations.
I lived and worked in Baghdad 20-25 years ago.
saddam was in charge Iraq was one of the most liberal middle eastern countries I did not recognise Baghdad on the tv footage it had been dragged back to the middle ages.
I very rarely saw women with a full veil and even women with covered hair was unusual. there were churches and synagogues for the iraqi and foreign christains and jews. alcohol was available to all in restaurant bars and nightclubs. Iraqi women had their place in work and society wearing western clothes albeit conservative akin to the 50s in London. I felt no fear and did not feel the Iraqi's lived in fear, people were very friendly and reasonably educated. saddam had rules to safeguard the poor. there were 4 food stuffs which shops could not make a profit. bread, cheese milk and potatoes. I could walk around alone and felt safe ( naturally I wore conservative attire ) no mini skirts or cleavage on show, I was a guest in their country and respected their conservative views compared to uk.
education and medical treatment was free. this was not a backward society.
yes I agree saddam did run the country with an iron rod but with a semi feudal/ tribal society he did the best of a bad job.
WHICH WE WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO REPLICATE IN IRAQ

[TOTO 99]

I get sick of our politicians putting their big fat ugly noses in other countries business, they are ignorant and over estimate their knowledge if they think they know how better to run these very culturally different nations.
I lived and worked in Baghdad 20-25 years ago.
saddam was in charge Iraq was one of the most liberal middle eastern countries I did not recognise Baghdad on the tv footage it had been dragged back to the middle ages.
I very rarely saw women with a full veil and even women with covered hair was unusual. there were churches and synagogues for the iraqi and foreign christains and jews. alcohol was available to all in restaurant bars and nightclubs. Iraqi women had their place in work and society wearing western clothes albeit conservative akin to the 50s in London. I felt no fear and did not feel the Iraqi's lived in fear, people were very friendly and reasonably educated. saddam had rules to safeguard the poor. there were 4 food stuffs which shops could not make a profit. bread, cheese milk and potatoes. I could walk around alone and felt safe ( naturally I wore conservative attire ) no mini skirts or cleavage on show, I was a guest in their country and respected their conservative views compared to uk.
education and medical treatment was free. this was not a backward society.
yes I agree saddam did run the country with an iron rod but with a semi feudal/ tribal society he did the best of a bad job.
WHICH WE WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO REPLICATE IN IRAQ

So are you saying he didn't poison gas people? Didn't torture and kill people?

It's one thing having admiration for someone who can run a tight ship but how can you possibly admire anyone who could do such terrible things?

[Ecky Thump]

Iin
I get sick of our politicians putting their big fat ugly noses in other countries business, they are ignorant and over estimate their knowledge if they think they know how better to run these very culturally different nations.
I lived and worked in Baghdad 20-25 years ago.
saddam was in charge Iraq was one of the most liberal middle eastern countries I did not recognise Baghdad on the tv footage it had been dragged back to the middle ages.
I very rarely saw women with a full veil and even women with covered hair was unusual. there were churches and synagogues for the iraqi and foreign christains and jews. alcohol was available to all in restaurant bars and nightclubs. Iraqi women had their place in work and society wearing western clothes albeit conservative akin to the 50s in London. I felt no fear and did not feel the Iraqi's lived in fear, people were very friendly and reasonably educated. saddam had rules to safeguard the poor. there were 4 food stuffs which shops could not make a profit. bread, cheese milk and potatoes. I could walk around alone and felt safe ( naturally I wore conservative attire ) no mini skirts or cleavage on show, I was a guest in their country and respected their conservative views compared to uk.
education and medical treatment was free. this was not a backward society.
yes I agree saddam did run the country with an iron rod but with a semi feudal/ tribal society he did the best of a bad job.
WHICH WE WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO REPLICATE IN IRAQ

As I said its a dilemma on when to intervene or let a country run under the ideals of its leadership, but intervention has often been needed in other countries, a obvious example of this would be Germany under the leadership of Adolph Hitler.

I too worked for many years in the Middle East, including Iraq, Russia, Armenia, Jordan, Mongolia and Kuwait, my observations of life in Iraq were slightly different to yours, as I witnessed beatings, forced starvation etc., maybe this was because I worked directly with the local people (mainly engineering construction), I should also add that I saw lots of deprivation and cruelty in Kuwait, which our wonderful leaders have never acknowledged.

[willowlily]

So are you saying he didn't poison gas people? Didn't torture and kill people?

It's one thing having admiration for someone who can run a tight ship but how can you possibly admire anyone who could do such terrible things?

we have more proof that the USA and UK have tortured people than saddam.
i am not denying atrocities took place and do so every day all over the world.
blair wants us to think he is a great humanitarian moral person when he was just playing another power greedy politician who did not know what a wasps nest he was stirring, which has now been spread all over the middle east.

[TOTO 99]

we have more proof that the USA and UK have tortured people than saddam.
i am not denying atrocities took place and do so every day all over the world.
blair wants us to think he is a great humanitarian moral person when he was just playing another power greedy politician who did not know what a wasps nest he was stirring, which has now been spread all over the middle east.

None of which answers my question which was how you can admire someone who behaves in that way?

[willowlily]

None of which answers my question which was how you can admire someone who behaves in that way?


I do not admire saddam for the suffering he has caused his people but I do admire him for the way he kept his country
together. historically I do not know a country that has not harmed some of its people, and saddam is no different. but I think bush and blair should have heeded the well known saying
BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW.

[martincrabb99]

From what I have read the publication of the Chillcot report has been delayed by the Civil service leadership and has nothing to do with the leaders of the respective Political Parties.
Hmmmmmmm.

[martincrabb99]

we have more proof that the USA and UK have tortured people than saddam.
i am not denying atrocities took place and do so every day all over the world.
blair wants us to think he is a great humanitarian moral person when he was just playing another power greedy politician who did not know what a wasps nest he was stirring, which has now been spread all over the middle east.

I respect the fact that you have personal knowledge of the people of Iraq and the ones I have met are very charming people. However you cannot possibly compare the UK to countries like Iraq......in my considered opinion.

[martincrabb99]

I do not admire saddam for the suffering he has caused his people but I do admire him for the way he kept his country
together. historically I do not know a country that has not harmed some of its people, and saddam is no different. but I think bush and blair should have heeded the well known saying
BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW.

It's a view spoken by many.......in hindsight.

[TOTO 99]

I do not admire saddam for the suffering he has caused his people but I do admire him for the way he kept his country
together. historically I do not know a country that has not harmed some of its people, and saddam is no different. but I think bush and blair should have heeded the well known saying
BETTER THE DEVIL YOU KNOW.

Oh, I see......you mean let's turn a blind eye....???

I've been trundling around the UK for over 50 years and I've never noticed any one person let alone swathes of them being gassed.....or tortured.......Exactly how far are you going back?

There's nothing "historical" about the Iraq wars...It's the here and now.

But please feel free to carry on admiring him..:tiphat:

[willowlily]

[QUOTE=TOTO 99;440538]Oh, I see......you mean let's turn a blind eye....???

I've been trundling around the UK for over 50 years and I've never noticed any one person let alone swathes of them being gassed.....or tortured.......Exactly how far are you going back?

There's nothing "historical" about the Iraq wars...It's the here and now.

But please feel free to carry on admiring him..:tiphat:[/QUOTE



well we have not turned a blind eye have we. only time will tell whether it was the right thing to do.

[helena246]

we certainly have not turned a blind eye to Iraq unlike all the other dictators and despot states the uk and usa do business with on a regular basis.

[Ecky Thump]

we certainly have not turned a blind eye to Iraq unlike all the other dictators and despot states the uk and usa do business with on a regular basis.

This Very short extract from Wikipedia gives a quick insight to some of the atrocities that the people there endured..........I don't think that there is another country to compare Iraq with, where the UK does business.


During the 1991 rebellion, several "dungeons" were liberated, revealing "disoriented and confused" inmates that believed Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr was still the president.[15] Of nearly 2 million refugees created by the 1991 crackdown on dissent, it is estimated that 1,000 died every day for a period of months due to unsanitary and inhumane conditions.[16] The destruction of Shi'ite religious shrines by Hussein's regime has been called "comparable to the levelling of cities in the Second World War, and the damage to the shrines [of Hussein and Abbas] was more serious than that which had been done to many European cathedrals."[17] Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.[18] After the 1983-88 genocide, some 1 million Kurds were allowed to resettle in "model villages", these villages "were poorly constructed, had minimal sanitation and water, and provided few employment opportunities for the residents. Some, if not most, were surrounded by barbed wire, and Kurds could enter or leave only with difficulty."

#Note 1000 people a day died directly due to inhuman conditions.#

[essexeddie]

This Very short extract from Wikipedia gives a quick insight to some of the atrocities that the people there endured..........I don't think that there is another country to compare Iraq with, where the UK does business.


During the 1991 rebellion, several "dungeons" were liberated, revealing "disoriented and confused" inmates that believed Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr was still the president.[15] Of nearly 2 million refugees created by the 1991 crackdown on dissent, it is estimated that 1,000 died every day for a period of months due to unsanitary and inhumane conditions.[16] The destruction of Shi'ite religious shrines by Hussein's regime has been called "comparable to the levelling of cities in the Second World War, and the damage to the shrines [of Hussein and Abbas] was more serious than that which had been done to many European cathedrals."[17] Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.[18] After the 1983-88 genocide, some 1 million Kurds were allowed to resettle in "model villages", these villages "were poorly constructed, had minimal sanitation and water, and provided few employment opportunities for the residents. Some, if not most, were surrounded by barbed wire, and Kurds could enter or leave only with difficulty."

#Note 1000 people a day died directly due to inhuman conditions.#

He also used to lower people slowly feet first into industrial mincing machines. If he liked you it would be head first. So it was quicker
Others waiting would have to watch and be frozen stiff with fear.

[warbey]

..
..
As I said, Saddam provided stability which, because of Outside interference has resulted in the present disaster.

We have different mind-sets, and We are unable to agree with what happens.

Politics is something of a Red Herring, because even Blair wouldn't have invaded without the approval of a majority, at the time.

[Ecky Thump]

As I said, Saddam provided stability which, because of Outside interference has resulted in the present disaster. We have different mind-sets, and We are unable to agree with what happens..


As long as you can recognise that the stability/control that he offered was gained by the murder, torture, death, oppression and general suffering of people in there thousands before our intervention (I won't use the word interference), then I believe that you have made a valid point.

[willowlily]

This Very short extract from Wikipedia gives a quick insight to some of the atrocities that the people there endured..........I don't think that there is another country to compare Iraq with, where the UK does business.


During the 1991 rebellion, several "dungeons" were liberated, revealing "disoriented and confused" inmates that believed Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr was still the president.[15] Of nearly 2 million refugees created by the 1991 crackdown on dissent, it is estimated that 1,000 died every day for a period of months due to unsanitary and inhumane conditions.[16] The destruction of Shi'ite religious shrines by Hussein's regime has been called "comparable to the levelling of cities in the Second World War, and the damage to the shrines [of Hussein and Abbas] was more serious than that which had been done to many European cathedrals."[17] Methods of torture used by Hussein's regime included assault with brass knuckles and wooden bludgeons; electric shocks to the genitalia; scorched metal rods being forced into body orifices; the crushing of toes and removal of toenails; burning off limbs; lowering prisoners into vats of acid; poisoning with thallium; raping women in front of their family members; burning with cigarette butts; the crushing of bones; the amputation of ears, limbs, and tongues; and the gouging of eyes.[18] After the 1983-88 genocide, some 1 million Kurds were allowed to resettle in "model villages", these villages "were poorly constructed, had minimal sanitation and water, and provided few employment opportunities for the residents. Some, if not most, were surrounded by barbed wire, and Kurds could enter or leave only with difficulty."

#Note 1000 people a day died directly due to inhuman conditions.#


it is in the interest blair bush and their cronies to justify the destroying of Iraq. after saddam was arrested the atrocities did not end the tribal/feudal factions took over killing each other and to this day people are still being tortured and killed whole villages are being wiped out. maybe after another 20-50 years when more facts are released we will be able to work out whether it was worth it and whether we caused more problems than we solved I fear the latter as hundreds of thousands of
middle eastern people are being displaced unable to stay in their own country because of the instability created by this illegal war they are landing in europe and most are heading for the uk consisting of mainly unskilled male 17-35 years.
because of blair and bush we will be obliged morally and maybe legally to take them in.

- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -


He also used to lower people slowly feet first into industrial mincing machines. If he liked you it would be head first. So it was quicker
Others waiting would have to watch and be frozen stiff with fear.


writers of horror movies have heard it all before and even used it in their plot.
you can attribute anything to anybody even easier if they are dead

[Ecky Thump]

iwas worth it and whether we caused more problems than we solved I fear the latter as hundreds of thousands of middle eastern people are being displaced unable to stay in their own country because of the instability created by this illegal war they are landing in europe and most are heading for the uk consisting of mainly unskilled male 17-35 years.
because of blair and bush we will be obliged morally and maybe legally to.

I think there are many more factors than the war in Iraq to consider as post-World War II migration of Arabs to Europe began as many Arabs from former French colonies like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon and Syria migrated permanently to France, migration started with workers, particularly from Morocco, who arrived under the terms of a Labour Export Agreement between many European countries including Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and France. Then of course there were other events like the Lebanese Civil War, the Libyan Civil War and Syrian war.......or are we going to blame Blair and Bush for all these events and all the Middle Eastern European immigrants coming to the UK?

[willowlily]

[QUOTE=Ecky Thump;440704]I think there are many more factors than the war in Iraq to consider as post-World War II migration of Arabs to Europe began as many Arabs from former French colonies like Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon and Syria migrated permanently to France, migration started with workers, particularly from Morocco, who arrived under the terms of a Labour Export Agreement between many European countries including Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria and France. Then of course there were other events like the Lebanese Civil War, the Libyan Civil War and Syrian war.......or are we going to blame Blair and Bush for all these events and all the Middle Eastern European immigrants coming to the UK?[

i do believe that the illegal Iraqi war has in part caused some of the problems you mention above, but not exclusively some of them are historical it is difficult to draw a line on any events either last year or 20/30/40/50/etc etc it can be difficult to quantify historical events which can be paradoxical and difficult to square the circle

[essexeddie]

writers of horror movies have heard it all before and even used it in their plot.
you can attribute anything to anybody even easier if they are dead[/QUOTE]


Really! Well that makes me feel a lot better knowing that.

[martincrabb99]

Personally I don't think the Chilcot enquiry will come up with anything that we do not know already.