View Full Version : Don't get me started on the Vatican!
Don't get me started on the Vatican, I said in the Royalty thread - so Bazz, here we are on a new thread.
As a (very) lapsed Catholic, I hadn't paid too much attention to the Vatican until a tourist visit there in the 90's left me reeling - the pomp and splendour (decadence, even) of St Peter's was just overwhelming. I know the Vatican was a potent political power in the centuries gone by, but could see no reason whatsoever for all this wealth to still be concentrated in a Church Body, which exhorts us to give to the poor, but did not seem to be practicing what was being preached ... end of rant :hole:
More religious mumbo jumbo, dont believe a word any of them say, jobs for the boys, like parliment,
confidential
02-07-2011, 19:04
God Forbid, they ever have a religious party.
I understand there are about 132 recognised Religious "Groups" in this World.
There is supposed to be ONE GOD
Work it out.....?
Any Oder that bars Men And/or Women from the natural function of SEX
must head for a Fall.
I have sympathy for those who have gone before..
The Church of England aren't down to Their last quid either.
They are that uccessful at Christianity, their Leader/s are now
giving advice to Politicians....
Blind leading (some blind).. not all..
An institution from the dark ages for the dark ages. Don't get me wrong, I admire people of faith and I'm all for whatever gets you through the week, but blind faith in a church where 1 in 4 priests either actively participated in child abuse or covered up for those that did, should be denounced at every opportunity. I'm a lapsed Catholic myself and this complete total devotion that some have ( including my parents) makes me sick to the bone. They don't want to hear of the buggery, rape, beatings and mental/emotional abuse that these *******s put children through. I have kids of my own and have told them NEVER to go anywhere unaccompanied with a priest. I accept that the majority of them are good people, but I'm not going to take the chance. Click here to download the Ryan and Murphy reports in Ireland, but beware, the content is very disturbing.
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/
http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB09…
I don't think its any coincidence that the age profile of Mass attendees is in the 50's. Its also a sore point of mine that to get into some schools ( in Ireland) you need to produce a baptismal certificate and that although officially, schools don't discriminate on religion, it is common knowledge that a Catholic child will get preference over e.g. a Muslim one. ( This attitude I'm glad to say is rapidly changing as the younger generations will not put up with this sectarianism. Indeed, Our government ( finally) is bringing in a law that removes the Catholic control of the board of governors of most schools)
:mad:
P.S. sorry about the rant but this subject makes my blood boil
CaribeCelt
02-07-2011, 21:17
The Vatican are bunch of gansters who have collabarated with reactionary and murderous regimes throughout the ages hence they got their little fiefdom called the Vatican,courtesy of Mussolini.
How people can show loyalty to these clowns is unbelieveable!
They backed Franco,Hitler and Mussolini,plus many many more,yet people still tug the furlock to them.Not to mention the widespread and instituionalised child abuse which they covered up with the help of certain governments.
I for one hope to see the day when royalty and religion are kicked out of society and the betterment of all people comes before any Pope or Queen.
There is a 10 min clip on you-tube of Stephen Fry getting tore into the Catholic Church which is worth a watch.
Rant over.:chillpill:
An institution from the dark ages for the dark ages. Don't get me wrong, I admire people of faith
Likewise and I admire them even more if they are happy in that faith and leave others to get on with whatever floats their boat.
My biggest gripe with most organised religion is their intolerance of anyone having different beliefs to themselves. That point alone I find totally laughable.
slodgedad
02-07-2011, 23:53
I am a total agnostic and yet respect others' beliefs.
I would never disrespect another faith whether Christian, Jew, Moslem, Buddhist etc. etc. I only have envy.
It must be nice to have something, other than the mundane life I lead, to believe in.
Read the OP and had in mind to write something, then looked down the thread and saw my sentiments more or less on dokgolfs post.
Sorry its not for me. Too many people have hidden behind religion to commit no end of wrong doing. I opted my son out of religious studies at school, as I dont want his head being filled full of Catholic beliefs at his age. We didnt baptise him, as I think so many people do this just for the after party - no intention of actually going to church in the future. If Alfie wants to turn to religion as an adult then Ill support him all the way, but for now I tell him its more important to be a good person and DO THE RIGHT THING. If you do that you wont go far wrong. :)
Here's one for you....
If there is only one God...why are there so many religions believing different things? :argue:
Wouldn't God be like any Father and have just one set of rules for all his children?
There was only Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden so..... where did all the religions come from?
And why did they come? Wasn't God good enough for people? Did they need more than Him?
Maybe that's why we are in such a mess!!!
We stopped listening to the Father, children started making our own rules! Result?......Fighting amongst the children!
Wonder when the Father will step in and sort us out.... Oh oh.....I think I can hear footsteps!! :pray:
with cheese
03-07-2011, 09:11
Good post Dok, my wife had an ex husband who used to beat her for religious reasons. When she got the strength to walk away with the kids(he was beating them too), she was denounced by the rest of her family for breaking up a marriage, why. Why indeed, because she had taken her vowels.
I don't say no one should be religious, each to their own, but don't tell others what to do if you are.
Catholic, knwn murderer and child abuser, hoarder of wealth.
Muslim, sectarian, abusers of women, war mongerers,
and the rest are no better, exept Bhuddists who are just chilled.
Tom & Sharon
03-07-2011, 09:36
I am a total agnostic and yet respect others' beliefs.
I would never disrespect another faith whether Christian, Jew, Moslem, Buddhist etc. etc. I only have envy.
It must be nice to have something, other than the mundane life I lead, to believe in.
I like Slodgedad am a non-believer,however to start a thread publicly disrespecting a certain stream of religion defies belief.
I seem to remember being BANNED from using a dictionary defination of a 'traveller' or 'person of lower class' in another thread on this forum:mad: because she personally took offence,now though its ok to have a dig because she has lapsed.
WHAT THE HELL HAS THIS TO DO WITH TENERIFE!!!!
More faces than a town hall clock,me thinks
Tom:hat:
confidential
03-07-2011, 09:41
Does it have to be about Tenerife or is it about people from Tenerife and others who just love Tenerife giving advice when needed, if not then keeping a forum alive with interesting and sometimes very witty discussions. Just a thought.
Good Thread.
onelegnofeet
03-07-2011, 09:42
. Why indeed, because she had taken her vowels.
IOU????...................sorry couldnt resist !!!
I never understood in my childhood the nuns going round to the homes of the Catholics collecting money from the families on pay day .Most of the children in those families could have done with a good meal,shoes on their feet .How do the church minds work ?? Along with child abuse ,nuns doling out beatings etc .How are these seen as Gods wishes ???
I respect anyones beliefs ,but please dont push them down my throat .
This is the right place for General chat, so does not have to be about Tenerife.
karinagal
03-07-2011, 11:00
I like Slodgedad am a non-believer,however to start a thread publicly disrespecting a certain stream of religion defies belief.
I seem to remember being BANNED from using a dictionary defination of a 'traveller' or 'person of lower class' in another thread on this forum:mad: because she personally took offence,now though its ok to have a dig because she has lapsed.
WHAT THE HELL HAS THIS TO DO WITH TENERIFE!!!!
More faces than a town hall clock,me thinks
Tom:hat:
Tom, in my opinion the op was not disrespecting the Catholic faith as such, just questioning the opulence of the Vatican with so much wealth on show when said wealth could be used to alleviate some of the suffering of those the priests and missionaries support.
I think it's a very good question, especially since nuns are expected to give up their worldly goods and take a vow of poverty....
Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk
Same as the poster above, I'm not attacking the Catholic faith rather the Catholic church. Imo, they ( the priests and church hierarchy) should clean up their own house first before preaching to others as to how they should lead their lives. People in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones!
I like Slodgedad am a non-believer,however to start a thread publicly disrespecting a certain stream of religion defies belief.
I seem to remember being BANNED from using a dictionary defination of a 'traveller' or 'person of lower class' in another thread on this forum:mad: because she personally took offence,now though its ok to have a dig because she has lapsed.
WHAT THE HELL HAS THIS TO DO WITH TENERIFE!!!!
More faces than a town hall clock,me thinks
Tom:hat:
First this is General Chat ... where anything not connected with Tenerife is shared ... and second - just read my post again please to see if my rant justified your rant :)
Sundowner
03-07-2011, 21:58
Funny thing about religion is that when the ***** hits the fan everyone starts praying!!!
Adam and Eve, think about it, and what they told you at school, How dare they fill childrens heads with lie's, All of it, every religion is based on fairy story's, I cannot believe they get away with it,
confidential
03-07-2011, 22:13
Incestouous behaviour, how can we be all be having a go at the likes of say, *****/GYPSY people for inter breeding and then believe in Adam and Eve.
The church has a go at sex yet Adan and Eve started it.
The only Church I ever enjoyed going to was 4 doors down from Desperate Dans bar in Los Cristianos.
howard thornton
03-07-2011, 22:46
Incestouous behaviour, how can we be all be having a go at the likes of say, *****/GYPSY people for inter breeding and then believe in Adam and Eve.
The church has a go at sex yet Adan and Eve started it.
The only Church I ever enjoyed going to was 4 doors down from Desperate Dans bar in Los Cristianos.
come on lets get it right,the church was next door but one,to desperate dans,next to big ben.
with cheese
03-07-2011, 22:52
Yes Howard and Confid, I remember that place. Our very first time to Tenerife, the friends we had met on a cruise(who are still very best of friends now) invited us out to Tenerife. At that time they were Swallows but have now been residents for years, they said on the saturday, pick you up tomorrow at 11.45 we go to The Church on a Sunday. We thought, never had them down as religious but we will make an effort. On went the glad rags, and the rest is history.
and the rest are no better, exept Bhuddists who are just chilled.
In my experience, Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion. Its the study of truth, being and acceptance. Is reasonable and civilized and the worst it does is incite mild arguments whereas religion is irrational and inspires wars.
I donīt know of any god that needs material wealth but all religious organizations seem to thing it is a requirement. IMO religion is a power trip to control the masses, fortunately these days there are enough who will question.
with cheese
04-07-2011, 13:53
Mafia, as some call it. So perhaps aunt bloody Joan that goes to Church regular and tells you about how you have sinned, enjoys being a member of the Mafia.
left me reeling - the pomp and splendour (decadence, even) of St Peter's was just overwhelming. :
Inside St.Peters Basilica (http://flic.kr/s/aHsjrfLux7)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom_laws/4755258477/
Inside Basilica di San Giovanni in Laterano (http://flic.kr/s/aHsjrg31eW)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tom_laws/4756572975/
And as a comparison : York Minster (http://flic.kr/s/aHsjsnJh11)
The churches in Rome have to be seen to be believed , but then again it is their " Head Office " so to speak.
In my experience, Buddhism is a philosophy and not a religion. It’s the study of truth, being and acceptance. Is reasonable and civilized and the worst it does is incite mild arguments whereas religion is irrational and inspires wars.
I donīt know of any god that needs material wealth but all religious organizations seem to thing it is a requirement. IMO religion is a power trip to control the masses, fortunately these days there are enough who will question.
Very Zen of you Zara. I call Buddism the gentle faith. Everybody, irrespective of religion, could learn a lot from it!
Adam and Eve, think about it, and what they told you at school, How dare they fill childrens heads with lie's, All of it, every religion is based on fairy story's, I cannot believe they get away with it,
Fairy stories????
Have you ever been to the British Museum?
Have you seen the enormous amount of artifacts and history that relate to Bible history?
I think there are seven Bible tours in the museum that highlight events in history that are recorded in the Bible.
I have joined two of these and the FACTS are truely mind blowing!!!
The British Museum has produced a book that timelines history with the recorded events in the Bible and guess what.....
THEY MATCH EXACTLY
Before this I thought the Bible was a book of stories, but now I am convinced it is, among other things, a record of mankinds history...even Alexander the Great is in the Bible!!! REALLY!!! I am not just saying that...
If you ever go to London.... it's a must to check out! You will be absolutely amazed at the exactness of it! I was!
Now that's what is in the Bible....Religion on the other hand doesn't necessary teach the Bible, so they can be two completely different things!
We really have to look into things deeply and not accept things on face value, dont we?!
with cheese
04-07-2011, 21:44
Fairy stories????
Have you ever been to the British Museum?
Have you seen the enormous amount of artifacts and history that relate to Bible history?
I think there are seven Bible tours in the museum that highlight events in history that are recorded in the Bible.
I have joined two of these and the FACTS are truely mind blowing!!!
The British Museum has produced a book that timelines history with the recorded events in the Bible and guess what.....
THEY MATCH EXACTLY
Before this I thought the Bible was a book of stories, but now I am convinced it is, among other things, a record of mankinds history...even Alexander the Great is in the Bible!!! REALLY!!! I am not just saying that...
If you ever go to London.... it's a must to check out! You will be absolutely amazed at the exactness of it! I was!
Now that's what is in the Bible....Religion on the other hand doesn't necessary teach the Bible, so they can be two completely different things!
We really have to look into things deeply and not accept things on face value, dont we?!
I think the bible probably does have some true history, but it has some blown up, badly translated, ficticious parts. The bible is used by many as a tool for persuation.
Fairy stories????
Have you ever been to the British Museum?
Have you seen the enormous amount of artifacts and history that relate to Bible history?
I think there are seven Bible tours in the museum that highlight events in history that are recorded in the Bible.
I have joined two of these and the FACTS are truely mind blowing!!!
The British Museum has produced a book that timelines history with the recorded events in the Bible and guess what.....
THEY MATCH EXACTLY
Before this I thought the Bible was a book of stories, but now I am convinced it is, among other things, a record of mankinds history...even Alexander the Great is in the Bible!!! REALLY!!! I am not just saying that...
If you ever go to London.... it's a must to check out! You will be absolutely amazed at the exactness of it! I was!
Now that's what is in the Bible....Religion on the other hand doesn't necessary teach the Bible, so they can be two completely different things!
We really have to look into things deeply and not accept things on face value, dont we?!
So where did Adam and Eve come from ?
slodgedad
04-07-2011, 21:53
I think the bible probably does have some true history, but it has some blown up, badly translated, ficticious parts. The bible is used by many as a tool for persuation.
Exactly. If you look at the the first 4 gospels they are translated as 'according to'
Stories passed down, edited and re reported after gossip changed their mind
No source, apart from the reporter. No physical evidence and most importantly, everything is left in the hands of the original translation of these so called 'facts'
(Personal opinion. Nothing to do with my mod status)
So where did Adam and Eve come from ?
If one believes in God, one will find and believe the answer...
If one does not believe in God, one may find the answer, but will not believe it.
Therefore the answer is only for those of faith.
slodgedad
04-07-2011, 22:12
If one believes in God, one will find and believe the answer...
If one does not believe in God, one may find the answer, but will not believe it.
Therefore the answer is only for those of faith.
I like that. Making me think again. Frank Zappa for God...:cop:
If one believes in God, one will find and believe the answer...
If one does not believe in God, one may find the answer, but will not believe it.
Therefore the answer is only for those of faith.
Adam and Eve is a fairy story, told to young children, to brainwash them, dress it up how you like, its bo--ocks,
I think the bible probably does have some true history, but it has some blown up, badly translated, ficticious parts. The bible is used by many as a tool for persuation.
We're probably straying from the OP which was more about the decadence of the Vatican building rather than about the pros and cons of Catholicism, so apologies to Doreen for this. The bible is a mish mash (certainly the new testament) of varying different accounts from various Christian factions. A council of churches was held in Rome @ 300 AD, at the behest of the emperor Constatine, whose empire was being ripped apart by religious wars. To unite the empire, he decided that the main religion should be Christianity, but needed a standardized version of it. The council basically voted on what was to be included and excluded. E.g, the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not/were not the only gospels. There are rumoured to be others, loosely called the Gnostic gospels. There are also theories that parts of the bible were rewritten @ 11th or 12th century which denounced the theory that Jesus was married ( possibly to Mary Magdelene ) and that they had children, thus excluding any possibility of Jesus rising from the tomb and ascending to heaven. There is a very good book about this called "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". Indeed, Dan Browne managed to make millions by plagerizing it for the book "The Da Vinci Code" ( great read btw)
slodgedad
04-07-2011, 22:34
We're probably straying from the OP which was more about the decadence of the Vatican building)
You're right. it is straying Off Topic but I think some of the views expressed are valid to the OP
with cheese
04-07-2011, 22:50
Essex innit
Adam and Eve is a fairy story, told to young children, to brainwash them, dress it up how you like, its bo--ocks,
With respect reggie.....Father Christmas coming down chimneys leaving presents for the children is a fairy story told to children....dress it up how you like....it's a lie that parents teach as truth! lol
Now back to the original post........
What we all know is absolutely true is that Catholic Church sent out missionaries to convert people and now ignore the very ones they converted in third world countries who are starving and living without fresh water and proper homes, yet these Religious leaders live in splender! They are the richest organisation on earth and have enough wealth to absolutely put all this right, so why don't they???????
No wonder people are annoyed.... many of the annoyed ones are the ones who dip into their own meagre salaries to give to charity whilst the Vatican has paved their own streets literally with Gold!
Not a dig at you reggie...just getting back to base...lol
With respect reggie.....Father Christmas coming down chimneys leaving presents for the children is a fairy story told to children....dress it up how you like....it's a lie that parents teach as truth! lol
If I was to tell you I totally believe in Santa Claus. You would think that I am delusional and rightly so.
Yet when it comes to the story of Jesus starting with
God inseminated a virgin, in order to bring his son into our world.
Then, as a man, God's son performed many miracles. He healed sick people, turned water into wine.
He was eventually given the death sentence. His body was placed in a tomb then three days later; he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God, never to be seen again.
That is true, the reason we know all this is because after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life so it must be true.
The four billion people who are not Christians look at that story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story. In other words, it is completely imaginary.
If I was to tell you I totally believe in Santa Claus. You would think that I am delusional and rightly so.
Yet when it comes to the story of Jesus starting with
God inseminated a virgin, in order to bring his son into our world.
Then, as a man, God's son performed many miracles. He healed sick people, turned water into wine.
He was eventually given the death sentence. His body was placed in a tomb then three days later; he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God, never to be seen again.
That is true, the reason we know all this is because after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life so it must be true.
The four billion people who are not Christians look at that story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story. In other words, it is completely imaginary.
I respect your opinion
And I am impressed about the amount you know about the Bible even though you don't believe it....wow (and I'm not being sarcastic...I really mean wow!)
One little thing though - Jesus spent forty days on earth before he ascended to heaven and this was witnessed by many people, and the gospel writer recorded their testimonies.
But i don't expect you to believe that if you don't believe the rest. So Mucho respecto Zara.
Always enjoy your comments, Zara
I am a believer so I do believe it.
We are probably both quite happy with that too.
But here something to think about..........
If you were sitting as a jury member you would need to accept witness testimonies and written statements to make your decission wouldn't you, even though you weren't there to actually see the event.
In contrast.....I know that the Coka Cola company invented Santa to promote sales of their drinks in the winter!
Respect, Zara, not a dig...I promise
with cheese
04-07-2011, 23:47
Is Santa not real, God help us. If God is your friend get him to give me the winning jackpot ticket for tomorrows Euro and I will see you all right, bit like Santa really. I know you don't Adam and Eve it.
I don't blame Adam though, only totty about so lets start a world.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I respect your opinion
And I am impressed about the amount you know about the Bible even though you don't believe it....wow (and I'm not being sarcastic...I really mean wow!) Just read back through the post - Yes another brainwashed lapsed catholic I am afraid there seem to be a lot of us around.
One little thing though - Jesus spent forty days on earth before he ascended to heaven and this was witnessed by many people, and the gospel writer recorded their testimonies.
But i don't expect you to believe that if you don't believe the rest. So Mucho respecto Zara.
Always enjoy your comments, Zara
I am a believer so I do believe it.
We are probably both quite happy with that too.
But here something to think about..........
If you were sitting as a jury member you would need to accept witness testimonies and written statements to make your decission wouldn't you, even though you weren't there to actually see the event.
In contrast.....I know that the Coka Cola company invented Santa to promote sales of their drinks in the winter!
Respect, Zara, not a dig...I promise
Similarly jmcd not a dig,
Often quoted that the resurrection is the ultimate proof that Jesus is the son of god. But look at Paul's story like the witnesses in your courtroom. What Paul is suggesting is entirely unprecedented - a man dead three days comes back to life. If this is true why doesnīt Jesus appear to people today just like he did with Paul and those that said they saw him. If so powerful then to come back would be a trivial task and settle all arguments.
Just another point that always gets me - Jesus said on numerous occasions in the bible, 'Ask, and it will be given you' or 'If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer'. So if we believe in Jesus and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer? (and I would imagine millions of people have made that prayer) It should be cured but it isnīt so is Jesus lying.
Added after 4 minutes:
Is Santa not real, God help us. If God is your friend get him to give me the winning jackpot ticket for tomorrows Euro and I will see you all right, bit like Santa really. I know you don't Adam and Eve it.
I don't blame Adam though, only totty about so lets start a world.
With that cheese I am going up the wooden hill laughing as it is an early start tomorrow :crylaughing::crylaughing:
As I said before, I am always impressed by your posts, Zara.......You're nobody's fool.
You are a deep thinking person!
You are so right....a man coming back from the dead after three days!!!
But this is one of nine resurrections recorded of in the Bible.
One event was of a man called Lazarus. He was resurrected by Jesus after FOUR days.
These were a taste of what can be done, so that we could have hope.
The Bible tells us that God has set a day to resurrect all those in the memorial tombs and to cure all illnesses.
The prayer you spoke of will be answered soon...... just hold in there!
And keep asking questions Zara...... there isn't a single question that Bible can't answer...but faith is built over time and is based on reason,
For example....
Doctors now have the power to bring people back to life, so why not God?
But if doctors could do it after three or four days, God or Jesus doing it wouldn't seem so remarkable, would it.
Many people (and I am not saying you, Zara), dismiss what God can do just because man can't do it.
Deep respect to you, Zara
with cheese
05-07-2011, 06:53
And my pet caterpilar was resurrected as a Butterfly.
"IF GOD CAN DO IT", where is he then, why has he not offered Maddie back to the world, why was Sarah Payne so brutally raped and murdered? You give me proof and I will be the first down the church.
If I was to tell you I totally believe in Santa Claus. You would think that I am delusional and rightly so.
Yet when it comes to the story of Jesus starting with
God inseminated a virgin, in order to bring his son into our world.
Then, as a man, God's son performed many miracles. He healed sick people, turned water into wine.
He was eventually given the death sentence. His body was placed in a tomb then three days later; he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God, never to be seen again.
That is true, the reason we know all this is because after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life so it must be true.
The four billion people who are not Christians look at that story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story. In other words, it is completely imaginary.
Thank you Zara, put better than i ever could, Thats the point, you will believe what you have been told, dosent mean its true, It cant be, think about all of it, Impossible,
Well I am gutted, I have found out that Father Christmas is not real by reading this thread, please no one tell me the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny were made up characters as well ;)
I am not religious in the slightest although I do believe in something, what that something is I haven't got a clue. Like Suzy none of my three children have ever been Christened/Baptised, simply because we want them to choose their own faith and not have one forced upon them, if they don't choose one then so be it. I have many American friends who are very very religious where Christianity is concerned and they run their life by it, even to the extent that they discipline their children through God, as in if the kids are bad they get told that God wouldn't like that and he will punish them...WTF.
A good old friend of mine from school comes from a very stout Catholic family. At the age of 15 she became pregnant by a boy she had been with since the age of 13, her parents were against contraception and also abortion. She carried that baby for 9 months and was made to give it up for adoption by her family, at the age of 15 she had no choice in the matter and because her family did not want any 'shame' brought upon them she was actually sent back to Ireland to an 'aunt' for the last 6 months of her pregnancy. This was about 35 years ago but seems like the dark ages. I can't imagine what my friend felt because she was unable to speak to anyone about it at the time as her parents basically imprisoned her in the house prior to going to Ireland. The one good thing is that she married the boy she was with and is still with him today and they traced their daughter who is now part of their family.
Well I am gutted, I have found out that Father Christmas is not real by reading this thread, please no one tell me the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny were made up characters as well ;)
I am not religious in the slightest although I do believe in something, what that something is I haven't got a clue. Like Suzy none of my three children have ever been Christened/Baptised, simply because we want them to choose their own faith and not have one forced upon them, if they don't choose one then so be it. I have many American friends who are very very religious where Christianity is concerned and they run their life by it, even to the extent that they discipline their children through God, as in if the kids are bad they get told that God wouldn't like that and he will punish them...WTF.
A good old friend of mine from school comes from a very stout Catholic family. At the age of 15 she became pregnant by a boy she had been with since the age of 13, her parents were against contraception and also abortion. She carried that baby for 9 months and was made to give it up for adoption by her family, at the age of 15 she had no choice in the matter and because her family did not want any 'shame' brought upon them she was actually sent back to Ireland to an 'aunt' for the last 6 months of her pregnancy. This was about 35 years ago but seems like the dark ages. I can't imagine what my friend felt because she was unable to speak to anyone about it at the time as her parents basically imprisoned her in the house prior to going to Ireland. The one good thing is that she married the boy she was with and is still with him today and they traced their daughter who is now part of their family.
The very same thing happened to Philomena Lynott, Phil Lynott's mum. To make matters worse, her baby was black. I straying off thread again, sorry!
Well I am gutted, I have found out that Father Christmas is not real by reading this thread, please no one tell me the Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny were made up characters as well ;)
I am not religious in the slightest although I do believe in something, what that something is I haven't got a clue. Like Suzy none of my three children have ever been Christened/Baptised, simply because we want them to choose their own faith and not have one forced upon them, if they don't choose one then so be it. I have many American friends who are very very religious where Christianity is concerned and they run their life by it, even to the extent that they discipline their children through God, as in if the kids are bad they get told that God wouldn't like that and he will punish them...WTF.
A good old friend of mine from school comes from a very stout Catholic family. At the age of 15 she became pregnant by a boy she had been with since the age of 13, her parents were against contraception and also abortion. She carried that baby for 9 months and was made to give it up for adoption by her family, at the age of 15 she had no choice in the matter and because her family did not want any 'shame' brought upon them she was actually sent back to Ireland to an 'aunt' for the last 6 months of her pregnancy. This was about 35 years ago but seems like the dark ages. I can't imagine what my friend felt because she was unable to speak to anyone about it at the time as her parents basically imprisoned her in the house prior to going to Ireland. The one good thing is that she married the boy she was with and is still with him today and they traced their daughter who is now part of their family.
Thats a nice story, I'm glad it worked out for them, What a religion that is, stinks, hope they all ignore it,
with cheese
05-07-2011, 21:33
So we all are agreed then God is Santa and Jesus is Tommy Cooper. Catholic Priests are all potential Peado's and Mafia, The Vatican is centre of excellence for Potential high rolling British Bankers.
So the Bible must be Aesops fables.
So we all are agreed then God is Santa and Jesus is Tommy Cooper. Catholic Priests are all potential Peado's and Mafia, The Vatican is centre of excellence for Potential high rolling British Bankers.
So the Bible must be Aesops fables.
YUP, and the koran is the beano or dandy, Tommy cooper - My friend drowned in a bowl of muesli, a strong currant pulled him in
Donīt get me wrong I certainly believe in Jesus, but not as the son of god. I think he was a very clever man way ahead of his time a bit of a magician, the Derren Brown of his day. However if he is really God and is supposed to have said .... if you have faith, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' nothing is impossible if you believe.... Then why didn't he do that, perform real, miracles that could not be disputed. The reason because Jesus was a man like any other.
Donīt get me wrong I certainly believe in Jesus, but not as the son of god. I think he was a very clever man way ahead of his time a bit of a magician, the Derren Brown of his day. However if he is really God and is supposed to have said .... if you have faith, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' nothing is impossible if you believe.... Then why didn't he do that, perform real, miracles that could not be disputed. The reason because Jesus was a man like any other.
Sounds like Yoda!
I shouldn't really have said that. If people believe in God or Jesus or Allah or whatever, fair play to them. I'm certainly not in a position to criticise. ( I'm not saying you were critical Zara)
Donīt get me wrong I certainly believe in Jesus, but not as the son of god. I think he was a very clever man way ahead of his time a bit of a magician, the Derren Brown of his day. However if he is really God and is supposed to have said .... if you have faith, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' nothing is impossible if you believe.... Then why didn't he do that, perform real, miracles that could not be disputed. The reason because Jesus was a man like any other.
We dont even know he was a man, Jewish probably, they must have first shout on it, so were did christians come in to it, Why do JW's go round in gangs, when did muslims decide allah is for them, What the F--k is going on,
with cheese
05-07-2011, 22:25
I am starting a new religion, it is named makemerichoriwillkillyoudoyouobey, all attractive or half decent and can get away with it women must wear no clothes. Please contact me at the FATICAN.
We dont even know he was a man, Jewish probably, they must have first shout on it, so were did christians come in to it, Why do JW's go round in gangs, when did muslims decide allah is for them, What the F--k is going on,
There were no Christians then. He was the first, hence the name Christians from Jesus Christ
Guess we are all bored - nothing on the telly :whistle:
with cheese
05-07-2011, 22:36
What time is songs of praise
Goforgold
06-07-2011, 07:28
We dont even know he was a man, Jewish probably, they must have first shout on it, so were did christians come in to it, Why do JW's go round in gangs, when did muslims decide allah is for them, What the F--k is going on,
JW's don't go around in gangs - only in couples!! Come on Reggie don't exaggerate!!! :)
JW's don't go around in gangs - only in couples!! Come on Reggie don't exaggerate!!! :)
Gangs where i live, incase they get mugged for their leaflets, and long black coats, spooky fu--ers
with cheese
06-07-2011, 10:43
And suntans eh Reggie
Margaretta
07-07-2011, 18:50
Can't resist joining in albeit late! Blame a last-minute holiday in wonderful Tenerife for that!
I'm only going to address the original idea that the Vatican treasures be sold and the money given to the poor.
I think it was Pope John X111 who started that idea by selling the Papal triple crown for the poor.
We visited Rome for the first time three months ago. The Vatican is a building which makes you gasp on first sight. It is awesome. To have it sold, pulled down or made into private flats would be devastating. It is a Christian centre open and welcoming to all and although some of its fabulous treasures may have been plundered or ill-gotten in the past many were donated or commissioned by families with a real love of God, a need to thank, request, praise and their sincerity is displayed in the marvels held there. They would be devasted to see their donations sold off.
You really can't sell the Sistine Chapel, The Map Room, the fantastic tiled floors and most of the artefacts are vast, unique and beyond price. They are there for us all to see, enjoy and admire and the money we pay to see them goes towards restoration and keeping them in the right conditions. They are shared with the world and should not all be in the hands of private collectors who would secrete them away and they would never reach their true value in the current climate anyway. So many are employed to care for the Papal Museums and treasures.
Yes, I found St. Peter's itself so crowded with huge, priceless antiques it was almost in bad taste. Each item is so fantastic, so vast and amazing that it should be housed in its own 'room' or chapel to be truly appreciated. You have to observe with a knowledge of history and awe at the skill of the artists and craftsmen. It is also a great centre of learning for students of many crafts as are most museums and large churches.
Yes OK, I was brought up as a very strict Catholic and have probably heard every argument against and met some bad practice along the way. Now I have my own ideas and my religion is that of a belief in and love of creation and creativity. I hope that I appreciate beautiful things, natural and manufactured, which is probably why I love the island of Tenerife so much!
I abhor those who use Religion as a weapon. There are many, because We are only Human.
Over 30 years ago I was lucky to discover a New Religion of Spiritualism
You accept full responsibility for Your Sins, and accept that to Help Others is good for You
and Your Souls.
Jesus was a Special Person who was one of a very few with exceptional Gifts.
There are others too who are of different Creeds and Nationalities.
If We know right from wrong, what does it matter how Jesus arrived,
or indeed what the conception entailed.
The Bible is a Guide Book which has been edited by Man = mistakes
and there are Scriptures NOT included which probably should have been.
Jesus went to Heaven, but His earthly body probably stayed on Earth.
What does it matter, We all know of Ghosts, and We all go back to Gods Kingdom when We Die.
Then We have to settle up for Our mistakes of this Life..
Simple. All it boils down to is to know right from wrong. Do as You would be done by....
We are all covered by the same rules and I believe most without any belief usually can be nicer People than those who profess to be Religious..
Simple. All it boils down to is to know right from wrong. Do as You would be done by....
And that is it in a nutshell Warbs - thank you for being so succinct. xx
Margaretta
13-07-2011, 21:47
I loved my trip to the Vatican but as a woman am I as free to visit Mecca or the Golden Temple at Amritsar?
The fabulous Hindu Temple in Neasden has a Museum explaining the history, facts, inventions and stories of Hinduism. I'm not sure if there are any mosques, synagogues or Buddhist temples which do this but the V and A and British museum have many fabulous artefacts.
Enjoying Ragi Omar's (spelling??) story of Mohammed. It's so important to try and learn about how people think and what they believe in order to understand their lives.
Have read all through the comments on this thread, from the very amusing to the somewhat biased and i do believe that everyone has the right to their opinion, which i will respect, but may not necessarily agree with.
As such, i was raised, fairly impartially i think, to form my own opinions on religion, be that of any sort.
When my mother divorced and remarried, my stepfather was from a deeply religious catholic family, in fact in later years i came to think of his decision to marry my mother one of profound importance. My mother, my sister and I, had to sit in the car outside the house of my grandparents each and every time my father went to visit his parents - my mother was deemed a scarlet woman, being a divorcee, and (at five years old) i was no better. My stepfather was excommunicated from the catholic church for his decision, a fact that humiliated all the family on my fathers side. Slowly he lapsed into a state of being a non attendee of the catholic church.
Later on, my mother and all the rest of the family (with the exception of my stepfather ) attended a C of E church which was subsequently closed and then we attended a Methodist Church. At no time were any of us told we had to go to church, it was entirely our decision. However, at that stage my own ideas on religion were forming and i personally stopped going to church but did attend the church youth club. My mother continued to assist in the churchīs extracurricular activities such as brownies, girl guides, rangers, boy scouts and the youth club for many years until we had all left home.
Whilst at University, I was attached to the University Hospital and one day whilst working in A & E had to give a blood transfusion to a young man who had technically died (heart stopped beating) on the operating table following a traffic accident. This young man subsequently recovered but turned out to be a Jehovahs witness and his parents subsequently sued the hospital, me included. As it turned out, the court declared under an archaic law, that once aperson is dead the person closest to the body (me) can assume the rights of disposal, and as such threw out the case. (Occasionally the justice system can be logical) At the time I was nineteen and very nervous at being put into a courtroom for saving someones life.
I am now in my fifties and generally regard myself as agnostic, however, it seems to me that religion, of any kind, once it amasses sufficient followers, has to have a power structure and be self financing and this is where the danger lies. Power, money and corruption go hand in hand, as do wildy eccentric beliefs such as not accepting blood and excommunication from the faith as a punishment for allowing your heart to rule over religious dogma. I would add that my parents were happily together uptil the death of my father - regardless of the wishes of the catholic faith.
I would much prefer to see a creed used such as my mothers saying
'do unto others as you wish they would unto you'
Wouldnīt that concept be life changing!!!!
What a very warming story jas ... a little sad , but the love and compassion shines through.....
[
'do unto others as you wish they would unto you'
Wouldnīt that concept be life changing!!!![/QUOTE]
This is the same meaning as My end of Message too.
Your Parents were better than those who scorned them, by using Religion as a Weapon.
Mothers have a wisdom that goes beyond what some Clerics can ever understand.
Your Mother obviously passed some of this on, as You too help others.
Sometimes You can reap more by looking inside and not outside.
rosemary
14-07-2011, 19:21
If I was to tell you I totally believe in Santa Claus. You would think that I am delusional and rightly so.
Yet when it comes to the story of Jesus starting with
God inseminated a virgin, in order to bring his son into our world.
Then, as a man, God's son performed many miracles. He healed sick people, turned water into wine.
He was eventually given the death sentence. His body was placed in a tomb then three days later; he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God, never to be seen again.
That is true, the reason we know all this is because after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life so it must be true.
The four billion people who are not Christians look at that story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story. In other words, it is completely imaginary.
It is perhaps more of an imaginary version of the truth.....?
In truth there was a man called Jesus. This is acknowledged historical fact.
He did preach a liberalised, radically new form of Judaism.
He was a Jew not a Christian.
He may well have been a Healer and a prophet. But the "miracles" as we know of them, were coded messages of events. The Raising of Lazarus from the dead for example was the raising from the pit where he had been thrown - excommunicated -for blasphemy and Jesus simply "forgave him" - the Water into Wine, the Feeding of the 5 Thousand - all have political meanings; they were not meant to be taken literally, only by those whom Jesus considered "the Babes in Christ".
It was Paul, not Jesus who founded Christianity (and the Catholic church), for political reasons, in a religious context.. His "epiphany" on the road to Damascus was based upon an actual meeting with the Jesus.
Jesus survived the crucifixion with the aid of certain potent medicines administered by a few of his Apostles (and no doubt the knowledge of the Roman Guards). He did not "disappear after 3 days" and simply "ascend" up to Heaven. He went to ground and was hidden by friends, appearing only when he felt it appropriate to certain people such as Paul. The Catholic Church is therfore based upon a lie.
But who would believe that now? Only those like myself who favour the research and the published work of a few theologians such as Barbara Thiering (Jesus the Man, The Book that Jesus Wrote, both obtainable on Amazon).
Knowing all of the above does not in my mind diminish the image I hold of the man known as Jesus. I am however a child of the Catholic Church and all the guilt and religious angst that goes along with that spiritual dimension. It has taken me 50 years to shake off the tattered belief I had in the Faith. And I feel healthier for it.
It has often occurred to me however, that maybe all the very finest and most moving of our musical heritage and literature couldnīt have been expressed or created without the Church that inspired it? Think of Verdiīs Requiem for a start.
Margaretta
14-07-2011, 20:08
I was really touched your personal story Jas and for many reasons understand it more than you would think due to personal experiences.
I am rather wary on two counts. First, not all Governments, Civil and Religious i.e. people in authority, are corrupt. Many have great ideals and work very hard to carry them out sincerely. You tend to hear about the ones who misuse their authority much more.
Secondly, research is good but not every Theologian holds the same opinion which is why it's interesting to read a variety of ideas before becoming adamant.
When all's said and done, I don't think anyone can quarrel with the basic idea of caring for one another which is what most religions and people generally would agree to strive towards.
Whilst at University, I was attached to the University Hospital and one day whilst working in A & E had to give a blood transfusion to a young man who had technically died (heart stopped beating) on the operating table following a traffic accident. This young man subsequently recovered but turned out to be a Jehovahs witness and his parents subsequently sued the hospital, me included. As it turned out, the court declared under an archaic law, that once aperson is dead the person closest to the body (me) can assume the rights of disposal, and as such threw out the case. (Occasionally the justice system can be logical) At the time I was nineteen and very nervous at being put into a courtroom for saving someones life.
I would much prefer to see a creed used such as my mothers saying
'do unto others as you wish they would unto you'
Wouldnīt that concept be life changing!!!!
With all due respects....isn't this s a bit of a contradiction?
If this person was a Jehovah's Witness, don't they request not to be given blood transfusions?
Even if it was the closest persons can assume rights of disposal, wouldn't your statement ........
QUOTE: I would much prefer to see a creed used such as my mothers saying
'do unto others as you wish they would unto you' UNQUOTE.....
mean that you would respect the persons wishes just as you would want him to respect yours?
Sorry, just sounded a bit like you weren't actually applying your mothers moral law in that case.
:hat:
Whilst i see the dichotomy in the comments of JMCD I would point out that a doctors job, indeed it is part of the medical oath, is to save a life.
Often in A & E, particularly in the case of multiple accidents, you simply do not have enough time for detailed triage procedures - it is somewhat difficult to ask a īdead īperson if they are a jehovahs witness ( no sarcasm intended)
But i would ask what religious dogma is so potent that the religious beliefs of a set of parents takes precedence over the life of their child. I genuinely and with no malicious intent cannot accept this type of indoctrination. It is only natural that parents should want the best for their child, protect and defend that child. Particularly with the advances in modern medicine, situations which at one stage were life threatening are now being eradicated -surely that is to the advantage of all.
Further to that, I see no actual contradiction in this particular story, perhaps the fault is mine because i did not continuethe story ( because i felt that it did not aid the point i was making). The young man recovered, rejected the faith of the Jehovahs witnesses, stood by me in the witness stand, got married, ( i attended his wedding) raised his children in the way he saw fit and to this day i occasionally hear from him and his wife. the sad part is he was never reconciled with his parents. It is obvious that his true wish was to live his life, thanks to the intervention of modern medicine that proved possible. The people who were aggrieved by this situation were his parents and in this particular instance, because of their religious beliefs which i personally find deeply disturbing.
It is obvious that īdo unto others as you wish they would unto youīdid apply to him , but not to his parents. Who was in the right?
Q.E.D.
rosemary
15-07-2011, 10:28
Whilst i see the dichotomy in the comments of JMCD I would point out that a doctors job, indeed it is part of the medical oath, is to save a life.
Often in A & E, particularly in the case of multiple accidents, you simply do not have enough time for detailed triage procedures - it is somewhat difficult to ask a īdead īperson if they are a jehovahs witness ( no sarcasm intended)
But i would ask what religious dogma is so potent that the religious beliefs of a set of parents takes precedence over the life of their child. I genuinely and with no malicious intent cannot accept this type of indoctrination. It is only natural that parents should want the best for their child, protect and defend that child. Particularly with the advances in modern medicine, situations which at one stage were life threatening are now being eradicated -surely that is to the advantage of all.
Further to that, I see no actual contradiction in this particular story, perhaps the fault is mine because i did not continuethe story ( because i felt that it did not aid the point i was making). The young man recovered, rejected the faith of the Jehovahs witnesses, stood by me in the witness stand, got married, ( i attended his wedding) raised his children in the way he saw fit and to this day i occasionally hear from him and his wife. the sad part is he was never reconciled with his parents. It is obvious that his true wish was to live his life, thanks to the intervention of modern medicine that proved possible. The people who were aggrieved by this situation were his parents and in this particular instance, because of their religious beliefs which i personally find deeply disturbing.
It is obvious that īdo unto others as you wish they would unto youīdid apply to him , but not to his parents. Who was in the right?
Q.E.D.
I donīt see how this is a moral question if it was simply a medical technicality that this young man was recussitated before being able to ascertain any religious issues. He was presumably over the age of consent. His parents are destined to sadness if they are devout Jehovahīs Witnesses. It goes with the territory so to speak.
So.....no right or wrong, no blame, no judgement, IMO.
Margaretta
15-07-2011, 18:32
I have known Jehovah's Witnesses through my work. As above, if they leave their religion they are completely rejected by its members. That doesn't sound very kind and caring to me and that, along with a fear of Voodoo, are probably the only two cults or creeds with which I could not reconcile.
Jmcd. Your job there was to save lives and you did that spontaneously. Sad that you had to go through the court case but I suppose it was just and fair that it was investigated.
It is obvious the Parents were controlling People who may have unfairly influenced their Son to join them and the Movement.
Someone brought in unconcious cannot be asked about in and outs when the obvious action is to get a Line in.
This is proven to be a life well worth saving. Lets leave it at that.......
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