View Full Version : Has anyone lost deposit on off plan property purchase?
Lost your deposit buying off plan?
I am attempting to get an idea of how much money has been lost in total throughout Spain on off plan deposits. Impossible I know, but even a bad guess is better than no guess at all. I have called this project ‘Missing Millions’.
If you can help by estimating how many off plan deposits were put down on your development please let me know. It hasn’t got to be accurate, just your best guess. For example if you think that 50% of the 200 properties on your development were sold off plan and each had a minimum deposit of 50,000 €. Then 100 properties X 50,000 € = 5,000,000 €.
To date with only 14 developments researched we are over half a Billion euro’s. This kind of publicity could provoke some change and prevent others from getting burnt.
Hello Rambi
Welcome to the forum :)
There is one development in Palm Mar, Las Olas, just as you drive in under the arch, that is 90% finished but taken back by the banks - I reckon there are about 100 apartments, maybe 70% had deposits paid. There's a class action in progress, so if anyone wants any more details, contact me by PM.
Roadkingrider
08-07-2011, 11:11
Yes, have heard about the Las Olas situation and those that bought and put deposit down through Tenerife Property Shop have been left without any advice, help or support. Disgraceful, but what can expect from estate agents on Tenerife?
Yes, have heard about the Las Olas situation and those that bought and put deposit down through Tenerife Property Shop have been left without any advice, help or support. Disgraceful, but what can expect from estate agents on Tenerife?
If you know anyone caught up in this who wants an update, pm me :)
atlantico
08-07-2011, 12:09
WOW ! I looked at buying there ! But have and will never buy 'off-plan'. I was going to wait until a resale came on the market. Was wondering why that was taking so long !
I was going to buy it to rent out to holiday makers at Ģ400 a week . . . . . . never mind !
Hi all,
Right across Spain there are Hundreds of thousands of European citizens (mostly Brits) who are victims of off plan developments not being completed. There is a law made in 1968 (ley57/68) that states that all off plan buyers have to be protected by a bank guarantee that provides for the return of their deposit, or stage payment money plus interest should the developer FOR ANY REASON fail to complete the development on time or at all. This is not an optional law that can be left out of any contract this is an inalienable right and cannot be changed or altered in any way. Even if both parties to the contract want to change it. I have tried to get this generally known in Tenerife because I discovered that the leading estate agents had never heard of this law. I wrote two articles regarding this problem and sent it to two newspapers. They did not appear to be interested. One did not want to cause his estate agency advertising clients any upset.
There is a petition and website which will give you the law in full in both Spanish and English. The law is not long, complicated, or full of legal jargon. It is a very simple, concise piece of legislation which is difficult to misinterpret. The website has lots of other information which I'm sure you will find interesting.
For my own research I am trying to get a handle on how much money has been stolen overall so back to my original request. If you have some figures and can provide a reasonable guess let me add it to my figures. With only fourteen developments so far we are now in excess of half a billion euro's stolen by the banks and developers, and remember this has been going on for more than fifty years. I feel that if I can get the figures high enough it will give us some strength to fight to get our money back. Any results I get in Tenerife will be updated to my figures and the totals published on this site.
Please sign the petition.
www.bankguaranteesinspain.com
Thanks for your support.
Wow, rambi ... that's a very comprehensive questionnaire ... best of luck with your campaign
In time, we hope to set up informational pages on many legal aspects in Tenerife and your help on property topics would be much appreciated :)
Take a look at this thread Rambi, I think you will be able to add another 25 million or so to your running total.
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?728-The-infamous-El-Barranco-Your-Place-Abroad-scam-Thread
We did a mortgage for some clients in Amarilla Golf and noticed that 4,500 or so had been added to the price to cover "optional" bank guarantees on new build/off plan apartments there. I informed both clients that the developer was required by law to cover the costs and there was nothing optional about it. One of them didnīt want to make a fuss, the other complained to the agent who had sold them and taken the money for the guarantess but was fobbed off....
A lot of off plan "buyers" had no intention of ever completing anyways - they were sold up the garden path with promises of quick profits by flipping the apartments before they would complete meaning no reason to worry about getting a mortgage and paying closing costs... typical overblown sales pitches by salesman - no advice whatsover, or warnings or explanations of the potential risks involved.
I spoke with an owner last year where an agency had guaranteed to flip his apartment. They didnīt and when he complained was simply told that he didnīt have the guarantee in writing and that particular salesman had left the company - fobbed off!
Thereīs also something going through the courts on one of the Compostella Beach developments. There was a thread on the other forum about it:
Compostella Beach Tenerife problems (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WGgyOzPZrXQJ:www.tenerifeforum.com/tenerife-apartment-owners/5520-compostela-golf-iii-apartment-owners-los-cristianos-tenerife-4.html+%22http://www.tenerifeforum.com/tenerife-apartment-owners/5520-compostela-golf-iii-apartment-owners-los-cristianos-tenerife.html%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com)
Names the same agent selling that one. Then again, they were a big agent so probably sold most off-plan complexes.
Thanks Doreen,
Thanks for your comments.
There's a sting in the tail on this one which is why I'm campaigning to get things changed. In spite of this wonderful piece of legislation, (Ley 57/68) brought in to clean up Spain's tarnished property reputation back in the 50's and 60's. This law has been ignored firstly during the boom years when it proved to be almost unnecessary and later now that times are bad.
However convenience is not a luxury that can be applied to the law. It is there, like it or not, use it or not, that law was made to protect a section of the community and cannot be changed or altered.
However the banks who are the guardians of this law have abdicated all responsibility by refusing to honour it. Either by not giving the legally required guarantees or where they have issued them are now in many cases refusing to honour them. Forcing depositors to seek expensive litigation They have become complicit with the developers, agents and lawyers.
Any lawyer or estate agent not aware of this law should hang their head in shame, equally any that did know this law existed and didn't tell their clients should do likewise. I suspect they were all too busy enjoying the money they were making to bother to keep up with the laws regarding their own business. They like to call it a profession, the oldest 'profession' in the world is far more honest than many of those of today's so called professions.
I apologise, I'm beginning to rant. It is because I have been conned out of my life savings and as a pensioner will never have the time to earn that money back. Apart from the stated obvious the reason that I am so angry is that the law in Spain amounts to nothing.
There are hundreds of cases that are being refused by judges, delayed by ridiculous appeals, allowed but without legal costs or interest, and even those that do have a clear win still don't get their money back. After years of waiting, paying for legal teams including barristers there are still victims waiting for their money, in many cases more than ten years. In fact I know of people who have died waiting. But of course they had paid their legal fees up front so there is no problem with the lawyers.
Don't believe for one minute that your lawyer is going to get your money back, he will tell you you have a good chance and will happily take your money to throw around a few denuncias but don't expect much more. This is not just my experience but that of many hundreds of people I have been in contact with since I started my campaign, and some of these managed to get as far as the EU.
Spain poses as a civilised partner in front of its European neighbours, but no one really knows what goes on behind the closed doors of any of our neighbours.
As you can see Doreen I am passionate about this and at the moment all my energies are focussed on changing things in Spain. I appreciate your offer but I am no legal or property expert. I'm learning as I go along.
And now I must get back to my original quest. Can anyone help me with some numbers?
If I win tonight's Euromillions I shal employ the best investigators and legal experts and hit Spain with such force it will make the Armada feel like a tea party.
Regards Rambi.
Thanks for your input AL JAY,
I'll certainly explore that link. Just for the record the amounts range from a million to 122 million.
The law clearly states that the developer has to bear the cost of the bank guarantee at no cost to the client. If they up the price of the property to cover it they are breaking the law. Interesting that you say it was 4,500 If that is the true cost the banks are taking no chances. I'll do a bit of research on that.
Regards
Rambi
Added after 11 minutes:
Sorry CIM,
I left your name off my (very) long post. My comments re 4,500 € was of course addressed to you and not AL JAY
steveoconnor
13-09-2011, 16:23
Hi all,
I have had a very similar experience to yours when investing in my "dream home" in Spain, where I put down a 54k deposit on a property in Almeria, which was and will never be built. After having a few phone calls ignored by my "own" lawyer, i got in touch witha group of expats in Almeria who were submitting a claim against the bank that was backing the project where they had invested. Fortunately I contacted their lawyer who seems to be quite optimistic with my case. He says that, even if I didn't get the bank guarantee from the developer, the bank will be hold responsible for all the money paid as deposit. THe lawyer has now submitted the claim and I am anxious to have the final trial to get my hard earned money back. It looks like I can see now the light at the end of the tunnel. Fingers crossed!!
Good luck Steve,
I hope it all works out well for you.
Rambi.
Another interesting question on this subject could be; How many people bought more than on apartment or villa off plan? There was a huge amount of greed around a few years ago and many of these people wanted to be first in line to make a fast buck on reselling their property before going to the Notary.Only when things went wrong did they start to bleat.I have heard stories from some of these people like;The estate agent made me buy 3 ....... on the complex and the last time I bought three I made x thousands of €'s.Mnay millions were made by greedy investors before the property crash.These people cause artificial inflation in the market and left many youngsters unable to get on the ladder.(Lucky for them as it turned out because they would now be in negative equity).
Hello Rambi
Welcome to the forum :)
There is one development in Palm Mar, Las Olas, just as you drive in under the arch, that is 90% finished but taken back by the banks - I reckon there are about 100 apartments, maybe 70% had deposits paid. There's a class action in progress, so if anyone wants any more details, contact me by PM.hi doreen, what is the name and more importantly what ever happened to those olive green colour apartments cut into the side of the mountains just above aqualand and paradise park apartments? they were built by a consortium of far eastern businessmen without planning permission, so they put in retrospective planning permission (so i heard?) just wandered what came of them? when we were last over my friend who has his own apartment there took us round the island and i was amazed at how many villas and apartment were under repair without ever being occupied?
Added after 5 minutes:
Another interesting question on this subject could be; How many people bought more than on apartment or villa off plan? There was a huge amount of greed around a few years ago and many of these people wanted to be first in line to make a fast buck on reselling their property before going to the Notary.Only when things went wrong did they start to bleat.I have heard stories from some of these people like;The estate agent made me buy 3 ....... on the complex and the last time I bought three I made x thousands of 's.Mnay millions were made by greedy investors before the property crash.These people cause artificial inflation in the market and left many youngsters unable to get on the ladder.(Lucky for them as it turned out because they would now be in negative equity).we bought in bulgaria about 6 years ago wanting to buy an investment, but i don't think it will make us millionaires lol, in fact with the economic downturn i think we have actualy lost money:(
Fonica
Thousands of people lost millions, no BILLIONS buying off plan properties that were supposedly covered by a legally required bank guarantee as prescribed under law 57/68. There may have been a few investors, sure, but the overwhelming majority were ordinary folk who wanted to buy a retirement or holiday property in the sun.
Many have lost their life savings and their pensions. One couple told me of their dream of buying a property in Spain. They sold their house in the UK in order to buy in Spain, only to be conned by a crooked developer and a crooked bank. They are now living in digs in the UK and will never get their money or their home back. They did everything correctly including engaging a lawyer who convinced them their money was safe. But this is only one of millions of similar stories. The greed in all this is being displayed by the developers going bankrupt with their Ferraris hidden in their girlfriends garage in the villa the developer gave them, and by the banks who have ignored the law and are refusing to return the deposits paid. In spite of court rulings.
Your arrogant attitude appals me and you have displayed your ignorance to the full. If I were you I'd be careful of the people you obviously mix with and I would take what you hear with a degree of scepticism and a large pinch of salt.
I wonder if you would just walk away from losing your life savings amounting to thousands of euros or maybe you might just 'bleat' a little too.
Your opinion is based on rumour and here-say and I suggest you find out the facts before displaying your colossal ignorance and smugness.
I'm glad not to know you.
Rambi.
Fonica
Thousands of people lost millions, no BILLIONS buying off plan properties that were supposedly covered by a legally required bank guarantee as prescribed under law 57/68. There may have been a few investors, sure, but the overwhelming majority were ordinary folk who wanted to buy a retirement or holiday property in the sun.
Many have lost their life savings and their pensions. One couple told me of their dream of buying a property in Spain. They sold their house in the UK in order to buy in Spain, only to be conned by a crooked developer and a crooked bank. They are now living in digs in the UK and will never get their money or their home back. They did everything correctly including engaging a lawyer who convinced them their money was safe. But this is only one of millions of similar stories. The greed in all this is being displayed by the developers going bankrupt with their Ferraris hidden in their girlfriends garage in the villa the developer gave them, and by the banks who have ignored the law and are refusing to return the deposits paid. In spite of court rulings.
Your arrogant attitude appals me and you have displayed your ignorance to the full. If I were you I'd be careful of the people you obviously mix with and I would take what you hear with a degree of scepticism and a large pinch of salt.
I wonder if you would just walk away from losing your life savings amounting to thousands of euros or maybe you might just 'bleat' a little too.
Your opinion is based on rumour and here-say and I suggest you find out the facts before displaying your colossal ignorance and smugness.
I'm glad not to know you.
Rambi.
Maybe you just need to read my post again.It refered to people who bought numerous apartments off plan as investments.Of course I feel sorry for people who lost money in the property crash.I also feel sorry for the thousands of workers who lost their jobs and the genuine builders who lost everything they owned.You need to look beyond your own loss sometimes to see the overall disaster that was cause both by the banks,goverments and often just peoples greed.I can assure you that I'm neither ignorant nor arrogant about the problems faced by people in Spain and would suggest that if you are going to proceed with your survey you will need to read carefully what is written and stop jumping to conclusions and insulting people who are just putting another side to the case.Nastiness rarely gets you anywhere and it certainly won't do you any favours when dealing with Spanish authorities. I have just spent an hour with a guy who got his money back from Gomasper just a few days ago.He took them straight to court when they tried to take him large deposit off him telling him that the apartment he had bought off plan wasn't going to be built and he would have to take another one in a different place or lose his money.Many people didn't understand,believed lawyers who also worked for the builders or just didn't have the means to fight their case but if they had done so they may well have got their money back. I wish you well with your fight and hope that you can find the right lawyers to back your case.The law is in place it MUST be enforced.
Firstly I did read your post, many times and 'interesting' is not the word I would use for it. Also words like 'greed' and 'bleat' I found extremely offensive, and what is wrong with investing your money in property? I would be interested in knowing why this tiny minority bothers you so much. We have all invested in property and there are some who have made a good living from it and all power to them. I think you confuse profit with greed when it suits you.
As for your advice I don't feel you are the one to be offering it. There are thousands who have been through the courts spending tens of thousands of euros on legal fees and won, but still never got their money back. Some of them have died in the process, waiting for a result. So don't think that if the law is broken in Spain it's a simple matter of taking the developer to court with a 'good' lawyer and all your problems are solved.
You suggest these people got it wrong, didn't understand, or believe, and if you find the right lawyer you will win. You are thinking in English where laws are upheld and you can believe in Justice. This is Spain and you think you can fight the banks and the rich developers who have thicker brown envelopes than you have. If you doubt this, explain why there are so many failed attempts at obtaining justice when the law is clearly written in favour of these home buyers. Oh, and I nearly forgot, investors.
You have made one true statement amongst the rest of your reply and that is your last sentence. That is exactly what we are fighting for. Maybe you could extend your advice, wisdom and knowledge to telling us how. I know of thousands who would be grateful.
If your 'guy' actually got his 'money' back I applaud him and wish him luck and continued good fortune. I sincerely hope it was not that he just 'won' his case. If he really won and got his money I know of lawyers in mainland Spain who would be interested to know the date of the hearing and the court where it was. The more successes we can find the stronger our own case becomes.
Finally as a result of 'my survey' I have uncovered losses to buyers of over half a billion euros on just 21 developments in Southern Spain. Nearly 240 million per development. This has been going on for more than fifty years. Why do you think they introduced Law 57/68 if not to attempt to clean up their tarnished image. Every time they get caught out they produce their magic 'Get out of Jail Card' and make a new law. They never intend to uphold it if it becomes too inconvenient.
Rambi.
pathillary
14-09-2011, 14:38
Hi Steve
Your story sounds really familiar to me. Actually I would say I am in the same situation. No hope to get my deposit back.
Please PM with your contact details or your lawyer. I wouldnt mind giving him a try!
Thanks in advance
Firstly I did read your post, many times and 'interesting' is not the word I would use for it. Also words like 'greed' and 'bleat' I found extremely offensive, and what is wrong with investing your money in property? I would be interested in knowing why this tiny minority bothers you so much. We have all invested in property and there are some who have made a good living from it and all power to them. I think you confuse profit with greed when it suits you.
As for your advice I don't feel you are the one to be offering it. There are thousands who have been through the courts spending tens of thousands of euros on legal fees and won, but still never got their money back. Some of them have died in the process, waiting for a result. So don't think that if the law is broken in Spain it's a simple matter of taking the developer to court with a 'good' lawyer and all your problems are solved.
You suggest these people got it wrong, didn't understand, or believe, and if you find the right lawyer you will win. You are thinking in English where laws are upheld and you can believe in Justice. This is Spain and you think you can fight the banks and the rich developers who have thicker brown envelopes than you have. If you doubt this, explain why there are so many failed attempts at obtaining justice when the law is clearly written in favour of these home buyers. Oh, and I nearly forgot, investors.
You have made one true statement amongst the rest of your reply and that is your last sentence. That is exactly what we are fighting for. Maybe you could extend your advice, wisdom and knowledge to telling us how. I know of thousands who would be grateful.
If your 'guy' actually got his 'money' back I applaud him and wish him luck and continued good fortune. I sincerely hope it was not that he just 'won' his case. If he really won and got his money I know of lawyers in mainland Spain who would be interested to know the date of the hearing and the court where it was. The more successes we can find the stronger our own case becomes.
Finally as a result of 'my survey' I have uncovered losses to buyers of over half a billion euros on just 21 developments in Southern Spain. Nearly 240 million per development. This has been going on for more than fifty years. Why do you think they introduced Law 57/68 if not to attempt to clean up their tarnished image. Every time they get caught out they produce their magic 'Get out of Jail Card' and make a new law. They never intend to uphold it if it becomes too inconvenient.
Rambi.
I'd like to know what gives you the right to be so nasty to somebody you don't know and make statements about my knowledge and abilities without having a clue what you are talking about.The court case against Gomasper has gone through the Juzgado de Arona and the final judgement came through in July 2011.I have neither time nor reason to fabricate information for the forum.
I don't have any problem with people making profits and many of these investors will tell you themselves that over the years they made huge gains.The problem came when they found themselves, having bought several properties off plan,paid deposits, and were then expected to complete the transaction but found themselves without the means to do so.In the good old days they would have sold these places before they were even built.When they discovered that they either had to pay up or lose their deposits they did indeed "bleat" and greed got them into the mess.There were thousands of them and many were British but Spanish buyers were also involved.Many,many complexes here in Tenerife were sold to investors before the plans had even been passed by the Ayuntamiento,it was a bun fight to get hold of as many as possible and put them straight back on the market.These people are not to be compared with the buyers who just wanted a home in Spain and put their money into projects that were either scams or failed due to builders going bankrupt.If you feel that insulting me will help your case then please go ahead just don't use the same attitude when speaking to Spanish officials as they will block your every future move and make your life as difficult as possible.
I will tell you what gives me the right to be so nasty. If someone makes comments based on very little knowledge suggesting that off plan buyers are 'greedy' and are 'bleating' because they lost all their pensions or life savings. They obviously are ignorant of the facts, and it would be better not to bandy their ignorance about. It is very easy to be smug if you are not one of them. This does give me a clue as to your knowledge and abilities. As for knowing what I am talking about I can tell I have more knowledge regarding these 'greedy' 'bleating' people than you.
If you bothered to read my comments I never suggested you had fabricated information regarding the Gomaspar hearing. In fact I am delighted if your 'guy' got his money back. However he is the exception rather than the rule if this is the case, but you missed my point. There have been some who did get their money back but there are many many more who won their cases and were awarded costs, interest and a full refund of their deposits but never got their cash back. This is not some vague theory I have acquired from the ether but hard fact. It may be that these people are not known to you because they were never lucky enough to buy a house in Spain after being conned out of their money. You are obviously only in touch with the 'thousands' of greedy investors who are living here. There were those who bought and sold off plan and made some money, but the vast majority were ordinary decent folk and your comments do them no favours at all.
I think you are a little jealous with the attitude that these rich greedy b******s got their fingers burnt, goody, goody. Only the feeling I get from reading your posts. I hope I am wrong but it does sound a little that way.
You are doing nothing for my 'cause' with or without insults and as I said before you are the last person to be giving me advice.
I don't have time for this, you obviously have opinions that we will never agree on. I shall not be answering any more posts from you.
Rambi, I think you got the wrong end of the stick regarding Fonica's original post. She/he was talking about investors and quick turnaround purchasers not private buyers! Suggest you take a deep breath and relax.!:)
I will tell you what gives me the right to be so nasty. If someone makes comments based on very little knowledge suggesting that off plan buyers are 'greedy' and are 'bleating' because they lost all their pensions or life savings. They obviously are ignorant of the facts, and it would be better not to bandy their ignorance about. It is very easy to be smug if you are not one of them. This does give me a clue as to your knowledge and abilities. As for knowing what I am talking about I can tell I have more knowledge regarding these 'greedy' 'bleating' people than you.
If you bothered to read my comments I never suggested you had fabricated information regarding the Gomaspar hearing. In fact I am delighted if your 'guy' got his money back. However he is the exception rather than the rule if this is the case, but you missed my point. There have been some who did get their money back but there are many many more who won their cases and were awarded costs, interest and a full refund of their deposits but never got their cash back. This is not some vague theory I have acquired from the ether but hard fact. It may be that these people are not known to you because they were never lucky enough to buy a house in Spain after being conned out of their money. You are obviously only in touch with the 'thousands' of greedy investors who are living here. There were those who bought and sold off plan and made some money, but the vast majority were ordinary decent folk and your comments do them no favours at all.
I think you are a little jealous with the attitude that these rich greedy b******s got their fingers burnt, goody, goody. Only the feeling I get from reading your posts. I hope I am wrong but it does sound a little that way.
You are doing nothing for my 'cause' with or without insults and as I said before you are the last person to be giving me advice.
I don't have time for this, you obviously have opinions that we will never agree on. I shall not be answering any more posts from you.
Well that's a relief ,given that you are incapable of discussing anything without resorting to abuse and childishness, making it hard to feel any sympathy for your personal crusade whilst feeling extremly sorry for those people who have a real grievance.
nt
Added after 2 minutes:
Rambi, I think you got the wrong end of the stick regarding Fonica's original post. She/he was talking about investors and quick turnaround purchasers not private buyers! Suggest you take a deep breath and relax.!:)
Thanks,he's scary!!! I'm going back into hiding now.
OK,
You are right dokgolf. I have thought very hard about my response and the reasons for it. Fonica and I have come at this from two completely different positions. After talking to others from Tenerife I now know there were 'greedy' buyers on this island, whether they numbered in their thousands is, however, debatable.
But I also know there are thousands of innocent home-buyers in southern Spain who have been ruthlessly ripped off and have lost their life savings. The inference, no matter how interesting, that these unfortunate people were greedy and deserved what they got made me very angry. Even the mere suggestion of greed does nothing to persuade public opinion to help those folk who are fighting for justice, supposedly even with the law on their side.
Victims of crime are obviously going to have stronger views than those who merely observe it. But the slightest suggestion that the victims were at fault is wrong and deserves no propaganda. The Spanish government and the banking system should be compelled to act and uphold their own laws with regard to bank guarantees and Illegal builds. Sadly they are failing spectacularly to do this.
I apologise to Fonica and others who were offended by my remarks.
Rambi
http://www.tenerifeforum.org/tenerife-forum/showthread.php?728-The-infamous-El-Barranco-Your-Place-Abroad-scam-Thread&highlight=barranco
This thread has something similar to your situation. I still think that Fonica's remarks were directed solely at speculators and didn't infer anything regarding ordinary people who lost their life savings and investments. Anyway, I'll make it my business to get as many people as possible to sign your petition. You'll find that people on this forum are very helpful if you give them a chance!:goodluck:
Thanks dokgolf
I understand what you say but I know that talk of greedy speculators can only harm our situation. One Tenerife newspaper refused to publish an article because they were of the opinion that it was just greedy speculators who had got their fingers burned and the publisher was also ignorant of the law regarding bank guarantees.
Thanks for the link I have followed that one up and the situation, while still deplorable, can not be part of my campaign at this time because this crime was perpetrated by a gang of English crooks who managed to circumvent the Spanish law by not selling deposits but shares in one of their many property companies. If I am wrong I am sure someone will tell me. I did however post what details I legally could on forums in southern Spain because the information I had received said they had moved their operations to the 'Costa's'.
I am willing to do what I can to help people who have been conned by property crooks wherever they are.
Thanks again
Rambi.
OK,
You are right dokgolf. I have thought very hard about my response and the reasons for it. Fonica and I have come at this from two completely different positions. After talking to others from Tenerife I now know there were 'greedy' buyers on this island, whether they numbered in their thousands is, however, debatable.
But I also know there are thousands of innocent home-buyers in southern Spain who have been ruthlessly ripped off and have lost their life savings. The inference, no matter how interesting, that these unfortunate people were greedy and deserved what they got made me very angry. Even the mere suggestion of greed does nothing to persuade public opinion to help those folk who are fighting for justice, supposedly even with the law on their side.
Victims of crime are obviously going to have stronger views than those who merely observe it. But the slightest suggestion that the victims were at fault is wrong and deserves no propaganda. The Spanish government and the banking system should be compelled to act and uphold their own laws with regard to bank guarantees and Illegal builds. Sadly they are failing spectacularly to do this.
I apologise to Fonica and others who were offended by my remarks.
Rambi Thanks Rambi,totally with you on the problems that have been caused by corruption.Sorry for any offence to you and good luck with your battle.
Hi fonica,
Thanks, I know I came at you too strongly and I apologise, as I said my reaction was caused by my anger. If the case made against those speculators gets through to people generally you get the reaction that all the victims were greedy and trying to make a quick killing and any sympathy and support for genuine victims is lost.
I have experienced this attitude before and it makes my blood boil, (as you know). I'm sure that in the real world we would get along fine.
Thanks for your good wishes.
Regards,
Rambi.
Signed up to your petition. That's a very comprehensive questionnaire! Good luck with the campaign!:goodluck:
Rambi has done an amazing job with his petition and if it doesn't get a positive response it won't be because of a lack of effort on his behalf.Well done and best of luck.I will ask victims who I know to sign as soon as possible.
Rambi has done an amazing job with his petition and if it doesn't get a positive response it won't be because of a lack of effort on his behalf.Well done and best of luck.I will ask victims who I know to sign as soon as possible.
I have read all posts on this subject with real personal interest as I find myself in a position of
having won my case against a developer but am unable to get anywhere in terms of
refund of deposit, far less interest or court fees/charges.
My contract with the developer made no mention of a bank guarantee, nor did the estate agent.
Am I right in thinking that the bank which received the deposit money were required to insist on
a guarantee provision?
Also, if the law is clear -- and it seems to be -- how is it possible for the banks to ignore it?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Tom & Sharon
24-10-2012, 20:56
We did a mortgage for some clients in Amarilla Golf and noticed that 4,500 or so had been added to the price to cover "optional" bank guarantees on new build/off plan apartments there. I informed both clients that the developer was required by law to cover the costs and there was nothing optional about it. One of them didnīt want to make a fuss, the other complained to the agent who had sold them and taken the money for the guarantess but was fobbed off....
A lot of off plan "buyers" had no intention of ever completing anyways - they were sold up the garden path with promises of quick profits by flipping the apartments before they would complete meaning no reason to worry about getting a mortgage and paying closing costs... typical overblown sales pitches by salesman - no advice whatsover, or warnings or explanations of the potential risks involved.
I spoke with an owner last year where an agency had guaranteed to flip his apartment. They didnīt and when he complained was simply told that he didnīt have the guarantee in writing and that particular salesman had left the company - fobbed off!
Thereīs also something going through the courts on one of the Compostella Beach developments. There was a thread on the other forum about it:
Compostella Beach Tenerife problems (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:WGgyOzPZrXQJ:www.tenerifeforum.com/tenerife-apartment-owners/5520-compostela-golf-iii-apartment-owners-los-cristianos-tenerife-4.html+%22http://www.tenerifeforum.com/tenerife-apartment-owners/5520-compostela-golf-iii-apartment-owners-los-cristianos-tenerife.html%22&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com)
Names the same agent selling that one. Then again, they were a big agent so probably sold most off-plan complexes.
MMMMMmmmmmm I wonder which award winning estate agent that could have been :whistle:
Tom
Roadkingrider
24-10-2012, 21:45
Not the good old Tenerife Property Shop eh? Surely not, such an honest outfit aren't they? JOKE. And by the way, friend of mine took legal advice about an off-plan property from a solicitor in Los Cristianos and was NOT advised/told about a bank guarantee. And the name of that solicitor, well let's just say that same so-called solicitor is now writing a regular advice column in Canarian Weekly - you just couldn't make it up! Mind you, it is Tenerife were talking about.
Fivepence
24-10-2012, 23:37
I have just read all the post on this thread, which started last year and I must say it has saddened me.
All these people (and it appears there will be many} who have lost their life savings trying to realise their dream.
Not only has their dream disappeared but probably a secure future has also slipped away.
It seems that some crime does pay, under Spanish law.
I have read all posts on this subject with real personal interest as I find myself in a position of
having won my case against a developer but am unable to get anywhere in terms of
refund of deposit, far less interest or court fees/charges.
My contract with the developer made no mention of a bank guarantee, nor did the estate agent.
Am I right in thinking that the bank which received the deposit money were required to insist on
a guarantee provision?
Also, if the law is clear -- and it seems to be -- how is it possible for the banks to ignore it?
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Hi Kilty,
As you will have read on previous posts, winning your case does not necessarily mean you will get your money back. Very often one has to go back to court to try and get the result they thought they had won.
I know of a case of a couple who spent a lot of money on hiring the best lawyers they could afford, winning their case, and like you, not getting back their cash. Employing the same legal team again to appeal and attempt to get justice resulted in the judge overturning the original judgement causing them to lose their case, their cash, and to add insult left them to pick up the costs of the opposition as well as their own.
The fact that you never had a guarantee, or were never told of a guarantee is unimportant. The Bank has a legal requirement to make sure that you are issued with a valid Bank Guarantee, either issued by them or issued by an organisation that are allowed and are solvent and viable to issue such a guarantee. The bank holding your deposit has to make sure your guarantee is solid and watertight. They also have a legal requirement to place your deposit into a special account, like a solicitors 'client account', which can not be touched by the bank or developer unless it is used to build your property. This is the word of the law but as we all now know the Banks are no longer able to be controlled by the Government or the Justice system.
In my own case I was issued with a Swiss bank guarantee. How can you better that you might ask. As it happens that particular bank had been outlawed by the Spanish government back in 1986. The details were in the public domain and the guarantee was as much use as if I got it from Disneyland and signed by Mickey Mouse himself.
As to your final point. 'How is it possible for the Banks to ignore the law'
Firstly you are thinking in English. It doesn't work like that in Spain.
We have been so protected and brought up to believe the law in the UK is not corrupt and justice will prevail. Generally that is true.
But here this is another country therefore we are the foreigners and I believe we are less likely to get the same level of justice we would expect to get in the UK. Also the legal professionals seem to be intimidated by the fact that the banks can afford the best legal teams in the world to fight against your country lawyer. Or could It be that they suspect something they will never speak about? It has been suggested, but never openly, that the banks have plenty of money to spread around and fat 'brown envelopes' are freely distributed to ease their case through the courts. Add to this the current economic situation. If there was a single case that would open the flood gates for the banks to lose Billions would you imagine the Government would allow that to happen? These are just my humble opinions. I could say a lot more but I'm sure you get my drift, otherwise your question is very valid and not unreasonable.
However I may be able to help you to join forces with others. You have nothing to lose, that's a promise. It is my intention to help but you will have to pm me for more details.
Regards,
Rambi.
Hi
Thanks for taking the time to give such a comprehensive reply -- really appreciated.
Diligent
09-01-2013, 18:16
Hello everybody. I have read this thread with great interest but there are some factual inaccuracies. I apologise if in explaining, I repeat principles mentioned earlier.
I trained as a barrister some years ago in the UK, but I have spent the last few years running a property investment consultancy that is based in the UK. About 3 years ago I was approached by a client who had a similar problem to many of yours in mainland Spain. As a favour to this client I sought out the best English speaking Spanish lawyer I could find and put them together. This client was successfully able to reclaim his lost deposit under Ley 57/1968. As a result of this, my business has developed to a point where we represent circa 300 claimants in Spain and about 250 claimants in Florida in an analogous situation. We have won cases successfully in the court of Appeal in Alicante.
Rambi is absolutely correct when S/he says that 57/1968 confers an absolute responsibility on a bank to underwrite deposits if it receives off plan deposits, or if it knowingly underwrites the development by way of mortgage. It is in fact possible for several banks to concurrently owe you the same duty. Consolidated case law stipulates that you as an individual cannot opt out of this protection. Nor can the bank seek to limit your claim by either capping it or putting an expiration date on the certificate. The only normal ways for a bank guarantee to be set aside are;
1. Issue of a habitation licence.
2. The buyer voluntarily rescinding the purchase contract.
3. The statute of limitations (15 years) passing.
Do not panic if you do not have a personalised bank guarantee. Case law also stipulates that if a bank offers a guarantee to anyone on your scheme, that they will be deemed to have offered a guarantee to everyone on your scheme. This principle was ratified in the SGR case (appeal court) there are several other similar decisions.
If you successfully get judgment against a bank. There are a myriad of enforcement actions that are open to you in order to execute that judgment. These would all be painful and embarrassing for a bank. The idea that a bank simply ignores a judgment without consequence makes no sense whatsoever. I suspect, as we often find, clients have a mistaken understanding of the process that they are engaged in, sadly this is sometimes encouraged by local lawyers. e.g Kilty mentioned that he had won his case against the developer. This is not the same as winning a case against the bank. The developer is likely to be at or on the point of insolvency. Often enough he could not pay you even if it was his genuine intention. It is pointless to sue a developer for recovery unless you know that they have recoverable assets.
The usual reason for a case being brought against a developer is where the construction has failed, and the developer refuses to cancel the contract, because he thinks he will finish soon. A bank will not exercise a guarantee where the purchase contract still exists and is in force. Where a development has little chance of completing without a substantial delay, contract cancellations are usually done by agreement to save money. Sometimes people complete this process and do not understand that it is realistically the halfway point in recovering money.
Sometimes developers go into voluntary administration. They work out a viability plan and make an offer to their creditors. This can involve a court process and may involve the developer offering a payment of the debt over a period of time. We have encountered solicitors who have passed this off as recovery action and charged hefty fees. Unless the Spanish market recovers, you are unlikely to see any money out of an administration process. Do not be tempted to vote in favour of the administration. You will be recognised as a creditor in any event and the bank may argue that, under guarantee they only owe you what you agreed to accept in administration. (we are fighting one such case at the mo).
In summary, provided that your property was residential and not 'turistico' you will with determination and a good lawyer recover all of your money + circa 4.5% p.a statutory interest from the point of payment + costs (10% ish). From the point if issue a decision of first instance is typically 13 months. Contrary to what is stated here we have found that the banks tend to offer a reduced sum before going to court and we have never had any difficulty enforcing a judgment against a bank.
Finally, you might as a second resort consider taking a negligence action against a solicitor, who carries indemnity. In every instance this will turn on the unique facts at hand.
We offer a recovery action on a no win no fee basis. This is not a very developed concept in Spain.
DO NOT QUIT! A
Excellent and very informative post!
Can you provide a link to your website? That way anyone who wants / needs to can contact you about this without having to resort to private messaging which may be difficult as you have a low post count. Or if you can provide an email address that would be great
I wasnt aware of:
Case law also stipulates that if a bank offers a guarantee to anyone on your scheme, that they will be deemed to have offered a guarantee to everyone on your scheme.
I brokered mortgages for some clients on an off plan development a few years back and they had been charged 4,000 in addition for the bank guarantee. I advised them to take this up with the agency who had "arranged" this as to my understanding the bank guarantee had to be provided on all new build / off plan but they were fobbed off.
From what you say above they should have just not bothered as if one person had a bank guarantee then everyone else was covered anyways....
There are still some new build developments being sold and I was just today offered an off plan development so it is still very useful information for potential buyers.
Diligent
14-01-2013, 12:40
Hi CIM I dont think I am allowed to put my personal email address up here. I'm happy to offer advice without strings. Perhaps when I reach 25 posts Ill be allowed to give out some personal contact details?
Rgds
Papillon
05-02-2017, 15:44
Looks like this thread is a few years old now, but I would be very interested to know how people have progresses with their claims?
Who has been successful and who are still trumping hard to get their money back.
It could be a big advantage for some of those still fighting to get an update from others.
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