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Angusjim
09-07-2011, 08:31
So given the now confirmed clamp down what are owners going to do, chance it or stop it ? I will be contacting a couple of "illegal" owners shortly looking to rent my usual apartments for later in the year will be interesting to get their views.

mossy
09-07-2011, 08:42
The only way is to stop it, hope they haven't been detected but they will have to wait probably till the end of the year to find out and accept less for long term rent.

junglejim
09-07-2011, 08:54
Who are they going to long term rent to? With no holiday rentals - no holidaymakers- no jobs - no money to rent ( how many iterations before the bananas are planted?)

mossy
09-07-2011, 09:04
There is a demand in sought after areas,personally i've had 1 response in the past 2 months for my enquiry and i know of others who aren't having much luck,estate agents don't want to know either.

Ecky Thump
09-07-2011, 09:08
At the moment, the full affect has not happened, as the owners are using the "family and friends" get out, this OK for the moment for them with the amount of returning customers as they don't need to advertise their apartments, but I think in two or three years time we will see the fuller result and then there will be a glut of apartments put on the market for sale, as the owners will be unable to pay their mortgages.

londoner
09-07-2011, 09:46
Who are they going to long term rent to? With no holiday rentals - no holidaymakers- no jobs - no money to rent ( how many iterations before the bananas are planted?)

that will not happen, this is a canarian, mainly tenerife incentive that was initially to claw back taxes, unpaid by a majority of people earning rental income but not declaring it. they then realised the huge problem of unregulated, residencial properties rented out to holiday makers and are now not only looking to collect unpaid taxes but to maximise revenue through fines.
if you are one of the unlucky ones to be picked out dont worry as you wont go to JAIL THEY ONLY WANT YOUR MONEY

BoPeep
09-07-2011, 12:03
One suggestion put to me was to rent your apartment to the agent on a 6 month long rent.

atlantico
09-07-2011, 12:40
One suggestion put to me was to rent your apartment to the agent on a 6 month long rent.

and what purpose would that serve ??

moonlighter
09-07-2011, 12:49
and what purpose would that serve ??

The owner would get a 6 month let and the agent will get a huge fine for illegal renting.:idea::idea:

Mmm! can't see that idea catching on somehow. :crazy:

BoPeep
09-07-2011, 15:39
Yes, my thoughts entirely! I think I will go with this one!!

moonlighter
09-07-2011, 16:06
At the moment, the full affect has not happened, as the owners are using the "family and friends" get out, this OK for the moment for them with the amount of returning customers as they don't need to advertise their apartments, but I think in two or three years time we will see the fuller result and then there will be a glut of apartments put on the market for sale, as the owners will be unable to pay their mortgages.

That's only half the picture in my opinion, the property market will be flooded with apartments on residential complexes for sale. nobody will want to buy them because they will not be able to rent them out. Communities of residential complexes will be in dire trouble as debtors rise as owners will not be able to pay their community fees (let alone their mortgages).
Businesses will struggle & some even close in areas with a high concentration of residential complexes (eg: Oasis del Sur). If you own a pool bar on a residential complex, you can forget it!!
The Canarian tourist board seems to think that as top quality apartments - the vast majority of which are on residential complexes are prevented from renting to tourists, visitors will stay in a nice 5* hotel. They must have their heads stuck very firmly in the sand, this will not happen. A large number of visitors will simply take their holidays in other countries such as Turkey where there are thousands of top quality apartments at bargain prices.

Will the last holidaymaker in Tenerife please switch off the light!!

Pooh
09-07-2011, 16:15
Who are they going to long term rent to? With no holiday rentals - no holidaymakers- no jobs - no money to rent ( how many iterations before the bananas are planted?)

Really - Tenerife needs more choice on the long let market. That was one thing that kept us from moving here in the first place; There simply wasn't much choice when trying to find a long let to live in the first year, so partly due to this reason we ended up in another country entirely, initially. (Where it was easy to find quality properties for long let.)
Now we're here, but due to the extreme lack of choice in the long let market, the place we live in now is just barely acceptable (from our standpoint), but will have to do until we'll find the place to buy and live permanently in.
If more properties enter the long let market, it could potentially increase the number of people moving here, since the lack of choice certainly deterred us from the beginning, and probably does the same for others.

moonlighter
09-07-2011, 16:23
Really - Tenerife needs more choice on the long let market. That was one thing that kept us from moving here in the first place; There simply wasn't much choice when trying to find a long let to live in the first year, so partly due to this reason we ended up in another country entirely, initially. (Where it was easy to find quality properties for long let.)
Now we're here, but due to the extreme lack of choice in the long let market, the place we live in now is just barely acceptable (from our standpoint), but will have to do until we'll find the place to buy and live permanently in.
If more properties enter the long let market, it could potentially increase the number of people moving here, since the lack of choice certainly deterred us from the beginning, and probably does the same for others.

I would say that more properties are bound to enter the long let market very soon as owners that have lost rental income struggle to cover their outgoings.

doreen
09-07-2011, 16:31
I would say that more properties are bound to enter the long let market very soon as owners that have lost rental income struggle to cover their outgoings.

Well, I know someone keen for a long let on El Mirador .. will the long let prices drop, do you think?

moonlighter
09-07-2011, 16:36
Well, I know someone keen for a long let on El Mirador .. will the long let prices drop, do you think?

Bound to I suppose if a load of new ones come onto the market.

sunspot
09-07-2011, 17:04
I can understand where there are only a few holiday lettings on a complex that they will never be legalised, but surely on some of these complexes where the majority are holiday let they need to get together with a legal agent and try for the touristic licence on that complex,obviously there will be some costs involved,plus the paying of taxes but this is better than looking over your shoulder waiting for the hefty fine with less bookings because you are frightened to advertised your property

doreen
09-07-2011, 17:09
I can understand where there are only a few holiday lettings on a complex that they will never be legalised, but surely on some of these complexes where the majority are holiday let they need to get together with a legal agent and try for the touristic licence on that complex,obviously there will be some costs involved,plus the paying of taxes but this is better than looking over your shoulder waiting for the hefty fine with less bookings because you are frightened to advertised your property

Can't happen under the current law if the complex is a relatively recent designated Residential: law says 100% is needed - impossible to achieve, I would think

BoPeep
09-07-2011, 17:26
Sunspot - can you rent villas anywhere with your licence or is it restricted to certain areas?

sunspot
09-07-2011, 17:51
Sunspot - can you rent villas anywhere with your licence or is it restricted to certain areas?

The licence we were given is to legally advertise properties in Tenerife,on Johns last visit to the Tourist board he was told to gradually start the process of legalising the properties and was also told they were willing to do a pre inspection on complexes to see what work needed doing to start the process.He was told to put the website live again, after being told to shut it down.
The villas we manage are all doing this process and getting into the system to pay thier dues

delderek
09-07-2011, 18:19
I can understand where there are only a few holiday lettings on a complex that they will never be legalised, but surely on some of these complexes where the majority are holiday let they need to get together with a legal agent and try for the touristic licence on that complex,obviously there will be some costs involved,plus the paying of taxes but this is better than looking over your shoulder waiting for the hefty fine with less bookings because you are frightened to advertised your property

That can't happen I'm afraid. If it was designated as Residential, that's how it will stay. If this status could be changed it would make a nonsense of the "Building Moratorium". which prohibits the construction of all tourist accommodation, with the exception of five star hotels.
This has been renewed every year for at least the last 12 years(open to correction on this timing). That is why so many "Residential" complexes sprung up after the moratorium was imposed.

princessmonika
10-07-2011, 10:31
pay taxes on it --simple.!!!!! if you pay your taxes, i don't think they mind too much if it is residential or touristic , all they want is revenue

doreen
10-07-2011, 10:35
pay taxes on it --simple.!!!!! if you pay your taxes, i don't think they mind too much if it is residential or touristic , all they want is revenue

Sorry, princess, we have no proof that they will not fine someone for illegal letting just because they have paid their taxes

moonlighter
10-07-2011, 11:00
Besides, how can you tax something which is illegal??

Loaded
10-07-2011, 11:19
The long let market is one place that may become saturated with stock, that could be true - although I think most of the apartment owners affected by this law are people who come over themselves once or twice a year or more and rent out the bits in between - this type of owner will not want long term rentals in their apartment because that would stop them using the property for themselves.......

So what will happen? Three possibilities in my opinion:

1. They will carry on as before trying to keep below the radar and risk a fine.

2. Stop letting and just use it for themselves if they can afford to.

3. Sell the property and either buy on a holiday complex where they can let or go to another country.

Added after 3 minutes:

If the long let market does become saturated with stock then what you will see is prices falling - Los Cris is currently about 500-600 for a 1 bed - I would guess this would go down to 400-500 per month.

This would mean that owners currently doing long term rentals on holiday complexes would benefit more by putting their property on the holiday rental market and getting 550-650 euros per month typically.

seanocelt
10-07-2011, 11:27
The long let market is one place that may become saturated with stock, that could be true - although I think most of the apartment owners affected by this law are people who come over themselves once or twice a year or more and rent out the bits in between - this type of owner will not want long term rentals in their apartment because that would stop them using the property for themselves.......

So what will happen? Three possibilities in my opinion:

1. They will carry on as before trying to keep below the radar and risk a fine.

2. Stop letting and just use it for themselves if they can afford to.

3. Sell the property and either buy on a holiday complex where they can let or go to another country.

Added after 3 minutes:

If the long let market does become saturated with stock then what you will see is prices falling - Los Cris is currently about 500-600 for a 1 bed - I would guess this would go down to 400-500 per month.

This would mean that owners currently doing long term rentals on holiday complexes would benefit more by putting their property on the holiday rental market and getting 550-650 euros per month typically.

I am looking for a Los Cris long let right now and would add that, although not hugely noticeable, prices are certainly not rising, more and more include bills instead of plus bills, and they are staying available a bit longer.

Angusjim
10-07-2011, 11:28
As a matter on interest is there clamp down going on in the other Canary Islands to illegal letting ? or is only Tenerife that is enforcing the laws ?

Loaded
10-07-2011, 11:43
The covers all of the Canaries, similar threads to this can be found on Fuerteventura forums and no doubt others.

sleepy
10-07-2011, 12:17
pay taxes on it --simple.!!!!! if you pay your taxes, i don't think they mind too much if it is residential or touristic , all they want is revenue
Unfortunately it isn't that simple.You cant pay taxes on residential holiday letting because it's not allowed.
Even if it's on a touristic complex,the tax has to be paid via the sole letting agent.
Right or wrong Loaded?

doreen
10-07-2011, 12:30
Unfortunately it isn't that simple.You cant pay taxes on residential holiday letting because it's not allowed.
Even if it's on a touristic complex,the tax has to be paid via the sole letting agent.
Right or wrong Loaded?

Wrong ... loaded didn't see my tax return with full disclosure :)

Loaded
10-07-2011, 12:55
depends how you do your accounts, obviously in Doreens case we can't declare the amounts private owners such as herself take for bookings, I don't know what they charge and it's none of my business. All I can declare is what we've done cleaning and management wise - which I guess if a tax inspector was to check both together the 2 declarations would need to agree.

But yes, when receiving bookings from us owners should declare 18% income tax.

Added after 43 minutes:

agree on dates it was used anyway, it wouldn't say if the owner had even received any payment for the bookings

sleepy
10-07-2011, 17:22
depends how you do your accounts, obviously in Doreens case we can't declare the amounts private owners such as herself take for bookings, I don't know what they charge and it's none of my business. All I can declare is what we've done cleaning and management wise - which I guess if a tax inspector was to check both together the 2 declarations would need to agree.

But yes, when receiving bookings from us owners should declare 18% income tax.

Added after 43 minutes:

agree on dates it was used anyway, it wouldn't say if the owner had even received any payment for the bookings

I'm even more confused now.I got the impression you were the sole letting agent on your complex,so surely all short term holiday bookings must go through yourself?

Loaded
10-07-2011, 17:46
they should. Doreens apartments are registered with us and we let her find her own bookings. We just clean and manage her apartments.

Added after 16 minutes:

which is really going against the evil sole letting agent stereotype.......

Goforgold
10-07-2011, 18:04
At the moment, the full affect has not happened, as the owners are using the "family and friends" get out, this OK for the moment for them with the amount of returning customers as they don't need to advertise their apartments, but I think in two or three years time we will see the fuller result and then there will be a glut of apartments put on the market for sale, as the owners will be unable to pay their mortgages.

Will Owners get away with using the 'Family and Friends even if they don't have to advertise? Surely there will be residents living on these complexes who will be only too happy to report these type of lettings, particularly in apartments that have been lucky enough to have all the weeks covered by holiday rentals and all too obvious that they aren't all family.

dokgolf
10-07-2011, 18:18
Just thought I'd throw my tuppence worth in, from the perspective of a holiday maker. If I can't rent an apartment ( either private or tourist ) that is up to standard, then I'll go to another country. Imo, the moratorium on construction of new tourist complexes must be lifted or lettings in private complexes allowed. The earnings from the lettings should be taxed and this money used to improve current tourist complexes. It is a complete nonsense to think that I ( and I presume I would be a typical holidaymaker) would pay exhorbitant prices for a 5* hotel where I would have to split my family over 2 rooms at least. E.G. for the price of 2 rooms in the Barcelo Santiago, I can rent a 3 bedroomed villa with private pool in Portugal. I really think that tourism in Tenerife will suffer. If, the Canarian government is serious about bringing a "better class" of tourist to Tenerife,... great. But remember, the more something costs, the fewer will travel. The fewer tourists, the less supermarkets, pubs, restaurants, laundry services, taxis etc etc will be needed. Simple law of supply and demand. If residents are worried about their lifestyle being upset by hordes of beer swilling, loud mouthed thugs, then owners of the apartments to let, should pay an extra community charge for s'one to "police" the complex. I really cannot express my feelings strongly enough, that the Canarian government has pandered to the hotel industry and has cut off its own nose etc..

Peterrayner
10-07-2011, 18:34
Will Owners get away with using the 'Family and Friends even if they don't have to advertise? Surely there will be residents living on these complexes who will be only too happy to report these type of lettings, particularly in apartments that have been lucky enough to have all the weeks covered by holiday rentals and all too obvious that they aren't all family.

The weight of current informed opinion around both the forums seems to be that family and friends use will still happen providing strictly that no advertising ( internet or agency ) has taken place, no rental is taken and providing that it isnt over used ie 40 weeks a year.

atlantico
10-07-2011, 18:40
as a footnote to the tax on rental income. If the home is a holiday home owned by a Tenerife resident, tax is 18%, but for a NON resident (which most holiday home owners are) it's 24% ?????? Someone can correct me if I'm wrong because that's the tax rate I pay, because a non-resident can't claim expenses back (or that could have changed this year)
Doreen, Norm De Plume or Goldenmaniac may have best answers to that

delderek
10-07-2011, 18:41
Just thought I'd throw my tuppence worth in, from the perspective of a holiday maker. If I can't rent an apartment ( either private or tourist ) that is up to standard, then I'll go to another country. Imo, the moratorium on construction of new tourist complexes must be lifted or lettings in private complexes allowed. The earnings from the lettings should be taxed and this money used to improve current tourist complexes. It is a complete nonsense to think that I ( and I presume I would be a typical holidaymaker) would pay exhorbitant prices for a 5* hotel where I would have to split my family over 2 rooms at least. E.G. for the price of 2 rooms in the Barcelo Santiago, I can rent a 3 bedroomed villa with private pool in Portugal. I really think that tourism in Tenerife will suffer. If, the Canarian government is serious about bringing a "better class" of tourist to Tenerife,... great. But remember, the more something costs, the fewer will travel. The fewer tourists, the less supermarkets, pubs, restaurants, laundry services, taxis etc etc will be needed. Simple law of supply and demand. If residents are worried about their lifestyle being upset by hordes of beer swilling, loud mouthed thugs, then owners of the apartments to let, should pay an extra community charge for s'one to "police" the complex. I really cannot express my feelings strongly enough, that the Canarian government has pandered to the hotel industry and has cut off its own nose etc..

Are you not ignoring the official touristic apartments, many of which are a high standard, and not much more expensive than the illegal ones

Added after 5 minutes:


The weight of current informed opinion around both the forums seems to be that family and friends use will still happen providing strictly that no advertising ( internet or agency ) has taken place, no rental is taken and providing that it isnt over used ie 40 weeks a year.

Seem to remember you saying a few years ago Peter, that these laws could never be enforced, because of the "Friend and Family" thing, but with 18000 euro fines, who is going to take the risk. I suppose if you have money and will power you could fight it through the courts, and no doubt someone will, but the average owner will not. By the way on another Forum, a second fine of 18000 euros issued.

dokgolf
10-07-2011, 18:48
Are you not ignoring the official touristic apartments, many of which are a high standard, and not much more expensive than the illegal ones

Again, only my opinion, but there is a severe lack of quality touristic complexes in Tenerife. The majority that are available at the moment could best be described as "cheap n cheerful". There doesn't seem to be anything in between these and 5* hotels. Also, as I've said before, I have yet to pay less for a private apartment than a nearby tourist complex. We feel the extra is worth it for the superior accomodation. Incidently, purely for my own research, I started a thread 2 days ago asking if anyone could recommend a 2 bed aprtment on a tourist complex. Guess how many replies I got?

delderek
10-07-2011, 19:00
Again, only my opinion, but there is a severe lack of quality touristic complexes in Tenerife. The majority that are available at the moment could best be described as "cheap n cheerful". There doesn't seem to be anything in between these and 5* hotels. Also, as I've said before, I have yet to pay less for a private apartment than a nearby tourist complex. We feel the extra is worth it for the superior accomodation. Incidently, purely for my own research, I started a thread 2 days ago asking if anyone could recommend a 2 bed aprtment on a tourist complex. Guess how many replies I got?

Didn't see that: try this email: ginalanz@boltblue.com. Complex is Royal Palm,,,you won't be dissapointed.

Peterrayner
10-07-2011, 19:00
Seem to remember you saying a few years ago Peter, that these laws could never be enforced, because of the "Friend and Family" thing, but with 18000 euro fines, who is going to take the risk. I suppose if you have money and will power you could fight it through the courts, and no doubt someone will, but the average owner will not. By the way on another Forum, a second fine of 18000 euros issued.

2 separate issues IIRC.

What I have said then is that restrictions hadent been enforced in the past 15 years nor had a single private owner been fined in that period. A statement which I will stand by

I changed that stance in December 2010 after the appointment of 17 inspectors and the announcement of "enforcement of the 1995 laws" in the Canarian Islands Parliament and posted to that effect.

It was clear then they had decided to enforce. Its their island and their decision regardless of what anyone thinks.

They also clarified at the same time the position on internet advertising has being an offence under article 42 of the law which restricted "advertising in brochures or with agents".

They have now only taken action against private owners advertising on the websites some 6 months later and even that was pre announced by visits to the administrators of the complexes to obtain details of ownerships some 2 months ago .

Acceptable family and friends position hasnt changed based on informed opinion on both forums.

dokgolf
10-07-2011, 19:07
Didn't see that: try this email: ginalanz@boltblue.com. Complex is Royal Palm,,,you won't be dissapointed.

:D Thanks for that Delderek, but we tend to avoid PdlA and Los Cris, the places are just too built up for us. If you took these two areas out of the equation, there isn't an awful lot else around.

Loaded
10-07-2011, 19:16
Again, only my opinion, but there is a severe lack of quality touristic complexes in Tenerife. The majority that are available at the moment could best be described as "cheap n cheerful". There doesn't seem to be anything in between these and 5* hotels. Also, as I've said before, I have yet to pay less for a private apartment than a nearby tourist complex. We feel the extra is worth it for the superior accomodation. Incidently, purely for my own research, I started a thread 2 days ago asking if anyone could recommend a 2 bed aprtment on a tourist complex. Guess how many replies I got?

You forget to mention that the 2 bed thread needed to be outside of Los cris and las Americas otherwise I'd have recommended several

dokgolf
10-07-2011, 19:46
You forget to mention that the 2 bed thread needed to be outside of Los cris and las Americas otherwise I'd have recommended several

I mentioned it in the original thread

Loaded
10-07-2011, 20:19
You mentioned in the thread you started asking about 2 beds and because of your specification that it had to be out of Los cris and LA (the 2 most likely candidates ) I didn't reply - there's loads of places to rent 2 beds in Los cris and LA

dokgolf
11-07-2011, 00:07
You mentioned in the thread you started asking about 2 beds and because of your specification that it had to be out of Los cris and LA (the 2 most likely candidates ) I didn't reply - there's loads of places to rent 2 beds in Los cris and LA

No prob, thanks anyway.

Tom & Sharon
11-07-2011, 09:55
:D Thanks for that Delderek, but we tend to avoid PdlA and Los Cris, the places are just too built up for us. If you took these two areas out of the equation, there isn't an awful lot else around.

Here you go:- http://www.cordialresortholidays.com/Tenerife/Cordial-Golf-Plaza-Aparthotel/?gclid=CJqG6f30-KkCFQMLfAodOW4Obg

You can get 2 bed apartments and suites in here. They are very large, and extremely comfortable. Not in Los Cris or PDLA.

moonlighter
11-07-2011, 12:32
Here you go:- http://www.cordialresortholidays.com/Tenerife/Cordial-Golf-Plaza-Aparthotel/?gclid=CJqG6f30-KkCFQMLfAodOW4Obg

You can get 2 bed apartments and suites in here. They are very large, and extremely comfortable. Not in Los Cris or PDLA.

We can all find some examples of high quality apartments on touristic complexes, but not in any great quantity.

Most owners of touristic apartments need to up their game to take advantage of the huge loss in ones on residential complexes.

Loaded
11-07-2011, 13:15
I think that will happen naturally over time, there are some really good touristic apartments around and some bad ones too, the good ones will do well and the others not so well.

mossy
11-07-2011, 13:42
We can all find some examples of high quality apartments on touristic complexes, but not in any great quantity.

Most owners of touristic apartments need to up their game to take advantage of the huge loss in ones on residential complexes.

Or maybe there'll be more demand for holiday lets in legal complexes that the owners will become more complacent than before.

moonlighter
11-07-2011, 13:47
I think that will happen naturally over time, there are some really good touristic apartments around and some bad ones too, the good ones will do well and the others not so well.

Over time may not be soon enough though, there are hundreds of top quality apartments in places like Turkey now.


Or maybe there'll be more demand for holiday lets in legal complexes that the owners will become more complacent than before.

In which case the demand will diminish and the tourists will disappear. :(

Margaretta
11-07-2011, 14:29
So if Uncle David, Aunty Victoria, their children Vogue Eight and Hello Nine want to stay two weeks for free in her brother's apartment when he is not there, they should go armed with a paper family tree and a letter saying no rent is charged as they are relatives? Or no longer allowed to stay at all????

atlantico
11-07-2011, 14:38
Yes, either that or the owners can wait until they go to court and then argue and prove that they were family

But no ones going to knock on the apartment door to ask them, is there ?

princessmonika
11-07-2011, 14:52
well you don't know that

atlantico
11-07-2011, 15:16
No, I don't, that's why I asked a question, by putting a ? at the end.

princessmonika
11-07-2011, 15:19
sorry missed the ? mark

what about the estate, agents selling property, regardless of residential with the good rental potential??

moonlighter
11-07-2011, 15:37
Yes, either that or the owners can wait until they go to court and then argue and prove that they were family

But no ones going to knock on the apartment door to ask them, is there ?

or friends, which brings us back to the question of the legal definition of a 'friend'. ???

Peterrayner
11-07-2011, 16:14
So if Uncle David, Aunty Victoria, their children Vogue Eight and Hello Nine want to stay two weeks for free in her brother's apartment when he is not there, they should go armed with a paper family tree and a letter saying no rent is charged as they are relatives? Or no longer allowed to stay at all????

I am told infomally by someone very experienced and trusted in these matters that they should be deemed to be friends providing

a) they contacted you directly (and not through a commercial advertisment) and

b) they have not paid you a formal rental for the stay.

At least thats what our new administrator said when I asked in June.

It was also what I understood from the previous administrators in May 2007 at the AGM and this is reflected in the official minutes.

No doubt this will come up at our next committee meeting again and I will ask again though this time formally within the meeting.

I will also try to see a local lawyer (who is already advising some people who have received fines for advertising) to see if I can get this confirmed by him.

willowlily
11-07-2011, 16:16
So if Uncle David, Aunty Victoria, their children Vogue Eight and Hello Nine want to stay two weeks for free in her brother's apartment when he is not there, they should go armed with a paper family tree and a letter saying no rent is charged as they are relatives? Or no longer allowed to stay at all????

the inspectors willl only be going for soft targets they can prove easily have consistently advertised and used for holiday rentals so those that rent out to family and friends really need not worry

Loaded
11-07-2011, 16:21
here we go again redefining the law and it's stance - none of us no the answer about your uncle fred staying - the law does not say friends and family are allowed. Does this mean you'd be fined? no one knows.

I would say - and I don't know for sure - if someone GENUINELY is your mum or uncle then you will be unlikely to have problems. If you are just sending people out willy nilly one after another and pretending they're your family you will be found out eventually.

Tracy
11-07-2011, 16:21
so who is it that you get in trouble with?

Skeggy
11-07-2011, 16:36
I am very fortunate that I stay in the apartment of some very dear friends on a residential complex, when visiting Tenerife, they do not advertise their apartment for holiday lets, I do not pay any deposit, write them any cheques or transfer any funds via my bank. obiviously I appreciate their genorosity in allowing us to stay there on occassions when they are not using it, and buy them items that that they would otherwise purchase themselves for use in the apartment, the way this discussion is going I wonder if our friends as owners will not be able to stay in their own apartment as they don't live there permanently.

moonlighter
11-07-2011, 16:44
I am very fortunate that I stay in the apartment of some very dear friends on a residential complex, when visiting Tenerife, they do not advertise their apartment for holiday lets, I do not pay any deposit, write them any cheques or transfer any funds via my bank. obiviously I appreciate their genorosity in allowing us to stay there on occassions when they are not using it, and buy them items that that they would otherwise purchase themselves for use in the apartment, the way this discussion is going I wonder if our friends as owners will not be able to stay in their own apartment as they don't live there permanently.

Will you be my friend please? :lol::lol:

Peterrayner
11-07-2011, 16:47
here we go again redefining the law and it's stance - none of us no the answer about your uncle fred staying - the law does not say friends and family are allowed. Does this mean you'd be fined? no one knows.

I would say - and I don't know for sure - if someone GENUINELY is your mum or uncle then you will be unlikely to have problems. If you are just sending people out willy nilly one after another and pretending they're your family you will be found out eventually.

BUT it is a reasonable and very obvious question posed by Margaretta

Speaking for myself I am repeating advice on allowable family and friends use given by both our former and new administrators both very experienced and with fully legally represented. Also had this use confirmed as acceptable by my local gestor/accountants.

As I also stated in view of the current enforcement against illegal advertising I will also try to get a legal opinion from an experienced local lawyer.

Yes of course family is easliy defined and proven.

Friends by definition IMO are those known to you directly and not through a third party agency or advertisment and not paying a rental for the use of the apartment.

Should add that this advice was qualified by the remark that the family and friends use must of course be a reasonable amount ie not excessive such as 30 -40 weeks a year :)

and Loaded is quite correct the family and friends use has no legal definition within the Ley de Tourismo 1995.

doreen
11-07-2011, 16:48
so who is it that you get in trouble with?

The Tourist Board inspectorate ... and possibly irate neighbours

Peterrayner
11-07-2011, 16:53
so who is it that you get in trouble with?

Its the Tourist Board Inspectors (Tourismo)

Imagine them like a traffic cop with a speed gun. If they catch you speeding on the radar ( advertising on the internet) then you receive a fine for the infingement directly without it first going to court.

You can then opt to pay the fine or appeal if you think there is any mitigation for the offence.

Balcony
11-07-2011, 17:30
I asked the question on the forum some short time ago how long a legal let was.

I was staggered with some people's estimates of 6 months etc.

I decided to rummage in the loft and I just found one of my reference books and was grateful that it had a reference to this.

It says that from 1995 under the law of urban lettings (Ley de Arrendamientos Urbanos) a rental contract for a principal home has a minimum duration of 5 years and is renewable annually by mutual consent. A contract is tacity increased by one year if the tenant doesn't give the landlord 30 days notice before the end of the year and rent increases are limited to the rise in the consumer price (inflation) index.A tenant must pay a deposit of one month's rent (two month's rent if the property is furnished) against damage. Tenants may be required to pay property tax and community fees if it's specified in the contract.

It goes on to say that if you're a landlord you must be careful not to fall into the trap whereby you sign a temporary contract, say for 1 year, which is later interpreted by a court as a long-term contract valid for 5 years. This is common practice when a tenant is a resident of Spain and is the reason why many foreigners refuse to rent to Spaniards,


The owner would get a 6 month let and the agent will get a huge fine for illegal renting.:idea::idea:

Mmm! can't see that idea catching on somehow. :crazy:

Tracy
11-07-2011, 17:32
who get sinto trouble, the owner or the person that as let it? or both?

Loaded
11-07-2011, 17:38
both the owner and the agent would be liable

doreen
11-07-2011, 17:55
both the owner and the agent would be liable

And just to say again, the tourist/renter will not in anyway be affected :)

atlantico
11-07-2011, 17:56
one point, surely it would be up to the authorities to PROVE commercial letting, not for an owner to have to prove they were friends and family ?

Surely if there is no PROOF of commercial letting then they'll not fine owners or take them to court ?

So even if an inspector called on the property, (unless the holidaymakers signed a statement swearing that they'd booked via an advert and paid for the rental) and they said they were friends, then they'd not bother with taking legal action ?

Tracy
11-07-2011, 18:17
And just to say again, the tourist/renter will not in anyway be affected :)

how do you know that the tourist wont get fined?

atlantico
11-07-2011, 18:20
whats he doing illegal ?

To be fined, you have to break the law

it's against the law to short let a residential property . . . . . . not to actually rent one

Tracy
11-07-2011, 18:23
who is it that you get done with, is it the police, they scare me they never smile x

atlantico
11-07-2011, 18:26
the Tourist Board Inspectors




worse than Police !!

Tracy
11-07-2011, 18:28
omg!!! im scared already n im in england lol.

who are they ??

Loaded
11-07-2011, 18:40
one point, surely it would be up to the authorities to PROVE commercial letting, not for an owner to have to prove they were friends and family ?

Surely if there is no PROOF of commercial letting then they'll not fine owners or take them to court ?

So even if an inspector called on the property, (unless the holidaymakers signed a statement swearing that they'd booked via an advert and paid for the rental) and they said they were friends, then they'd not bother with taking legal action ?

As we've said there's nothing in the law saying friends and family is legal so all they'd need to prove is that the guests aren't the owners and don't have a long term contract

dokgolf
11-07-2011, 18:53
I asked the question on the forum some short time ago how long a legal let was.

I was staggered with some people's estimates of 6 months etc.

I decided to rummage in the loft and I just found one of my reference books and was grateful that it had a reference to this.

It says that from 1995 under the law of urban lettings (Ley de Arrendamientos Urbanos) a rental contract for a principal home has a minimum duration of 5 years and is renewable annually by mutual consent. A contract is tacity increased by one year if the tenant doesn't give the landlord 30 days notice before the end of the year and rent increases are limited to the rise in the consumer price (inflation) index.A tenant must pay a deposit of one month's rent (two month's rent if the property is furnished) against damage. Tenants may be required to pay property tax and community fees if it's specified in the contract.

It goes on to say that if you're a landlord you must be careful not to fall into the trap whereby you sign a temporary contract, say for 1 year, which is later interpreted by a court as a long-term contract valid for 5 years. This is common practice when a tenant is a resident of Spain and is the reason why many foreigners refuse to rent to Spaniards,

Can you translate that for an idiot like myself please?

Also, is this thread not just reverting back to the same old "illegal lettings " thread? I think the op was asking "what does the furure hold" rather than who gets fined etc.

Peterrayner
11-07-2011, 18:56
As we've said there's nothing in the law saying friends and family is legal so all they'd need to prove is that the guests aren't the owners and don't have a long term contract

That might (and I stress might) move things on to the European Courts as that could be a contravention of human rights legistlation. This view was proferred by a local Tenerife English law firm (Tenerife Solicitors) in a local newspaper article.

I have also been contacted by a local tenerife estate agent of a very long standing who is gathering together a possible legal counter action against these recent events.

Goforgold
11-07-2011, 19:05
Here you go:- http://www.cordialresortholidays.com/Tenerife/Cordial-Golf-Plaza-Aparthotel/?gclid=CJqG6f30-KkCFQMLfAodOW4Obg

You can get 2 bed apartments and suites in here. They are very large, and extremely comfortable. Not in Los Cris or PDLA.

Thanks Sharon/Tom, but I like staying on residential complexes as they are so quiet and you don't get scraping suitcases in the middle of the night or people coming home worse the wear . :) Also no ankle biters in the swimming pool :)

Peterrayner
11-07-2011, 20:15
Just on this question of the family and friends issue, this is what the law actually says:

Article 31 of the 7/1995 law states the definition of illegal touristic activity is as follows

"Touristic activities are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment openly to the public for a price.


Article 42(c) also directly prohibits

"advertising in brochures or with travel agencies"


so therefore IF IT IS NOT OFFERED OPENLY TO THE PUBLIC (ie advertised to the general public) and NOT FOR A PRICE (ie not for a rent)


then use by your family and friends offered privately and directly without a charge could be seen has being outside the restrictions imposed by the above law.

or at least thats how it has been explained to me.

Not trying to twist or rewrite the law but just asking a perfectly legitimate question IMHO.

I should add I do have in my possession a copy of the official fine notification letter to an owner on a residential complex and the wording clearly states the fine is in direct relation to "illegally advertising on the web for touristic explotation of an unregistered apartment".

The fine is judged to be a SERIOUS OFFENCE and the fine is set at 18,000E with a 15 day deadline from receipt of the notice for the lodging of an appeal in writing.

The court is then obliged to settle the case within 6 months of the notice or the case lapses.

AL JAY
11-07-2011, 20:29
Ooh *Gets on the phone to Uncle Santana & Aunty Maria* :whistle:;)

Loaded
11-07-2011, 22:21
So Peter can I just point out that although I see where you're coming from you just pointed out that the law doesn't actually say anything about friends and family .

I understand your logic but remember the other part of the law which you've left out where it defines a tourist as (from memory) "someone who enjoys a stay in accommodation that is not their permanent address" - that encapsulated your Mates and family too.

Added after 4 minutes:

Also don't read too much into what lawyers and solicitors say in the press, I consider myself a good friend of one who has commented on the law and we have had many a debate about the law and agree to disagree. You'll find that lawyers always interpret laws in different ways - while that doesn't make them incorrect I know that if I was a solicitor over here an wanted to attract attention to myself I'd comment on a controversial subject that defends the expat stand point , who knows it may bring in more business?

Miffed-owner
11-07-2011, 22:44
That might (and I stress might) move things on to the European Courts as that could be a contravention of human rights legistlation. This view was proferred by a local Tenerife English law firm (Tenerife Solicitors) in a local newspaper article.

I have also been contacted by a local tenerife estate agent of a very long standing who is gathering together a possible legal counter action against these recent events.

I would be very interested to join with or provide information for that. My family have owned and let a single property on PS1 since it was first opened, we currently (or rather until a few hours ago!) use two large commercial websites. PS1 was advertised when for original sale that you could rent out your purchased property and it was built with a reception area (and all phone calls through a central switchboard, monopoly on cleaning etc), the builders kept a number (?50) of properties back for letting themselves and blocks of apartments were sold to various people who were running letting companies. For whatever reason, the multi-unit, true businesses are no longer operating there but there are several people who let their own places when they are not there/until they retire, or residents who have another unit that they let out etc. Fairly low key stuff. The visitors heavily subsidise the pool through sunbed hire (and keep the cafe and supermarket going) so it will be interesting to see what will happen to the community charges.

As regards what is actually happening on PS1 as asked previously, I understand from various sources that inspectors went in asking questions and the community office provided owner details when requested (PS2 apparently refused that request). The complex was written to several weeks ago saying that about 16 owners will be fined (but not apparently including myself) but as of today those letters have not yet been received. I only know about two of the properties that are affected, they are both apartments of different sizes but I do not otherwise know why they were selected.

I have presently changed my adverts to say only accepting lets of 3 months or longer while awaiting events and hopefully a return to rationality. I am pretty annoyed as we have caused a lot of people to come to Tenerife and spend money locally (as we have all done ourselves), employ a local management company and are boosting the economy in very many ways, and I think we are responsible landlords and owners overall.

Personally, I would have no objection to an inspection and registration system - actually that would be welcome to know/prove that we meet adequate standards or could say what star rating we had etc. It would presumably be charged for but that's OK. Income should be declared and taxed either in Tenerife or the UK as most appropriate for personal circumstances. A modest letting tax is OK (excepting the EU rules on double taxation which may apply if declaring the income properly in the UK) but it should be based on net income not gross as is unreasonably the case presently.

Sorry for long post as my first effort. Don't we all live in "interesting times"?!

Loaded
11-07-2011, 22:54
It would be very interesting to see the law tested, The more people that get on board and put money in the better the chances of success.

Peterrayner
12-07-2011, 03:53
I would be very interested to join with or provide information for that.

I have sent you a PM with her email contact details.

moonlighter
12-07-2011, 03:56
Can you PM me the details also please Peter.

Peterrayner
12-07-2011, 05:19
I understand your logic but remember the other part of the law which you've left out where it defines a tourist as (from memory) "someone who enjoys a stay in accommodation that is not their permanent address"


you are quite right again. The 7/1995 law does indeed define tourists and tourist accommodation as follows:

" a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered openly and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence"

the highlighted text is the crucial part for me and again prefaces the fact that it is the open offering (advertising) of the accommodation that is legally restriced here.

Would I be right therefore in thinking you would agree that all the current actions, both against agencies and owners (on both types of complex), have apparently been directed against those openly offering their properties for rental on the internet.


So - that encapsulated your mates and family too.


so no I dont agree with that because I have not "openly offered" the accommodation to my family and friends - it is an entirely private agreement between us both and I stress again without charging of a rent.

A good friend of mine who is very experienced in this area puts it much better than me..


Commercial letting is defined in Ley 7/1995, updated 1998, as when “temporary accommodation which will not require a change of address is openly offered to the public.

“Openly offered to the public” is any mechanism which presents the accommodation to people with whom one could not have otherwise come into contact.

This is why “friends and family” are allowed, though that specific term is not included in the legislation. Clearly, though, such contacts would have been possible without an advert or website for enquiries.

and we have also seen many times posted on here the opinion that anyone staying in private accommodation allbeit has tourists are themselves not breaking any laws.

murph
09-09-2011, 23:46
Or maybe there'll be more demand for holiday lets in legal complexes that the owners will become more complacent than before.

Couldn't agree more

We have been coming to the Island for many years and have NEVER stayed in a touristic Apartment that was in better condition, better stocked with appliances etc than ANY apartment we have stayed in on a residential complex.

Simple as that

Oasis
09-10-2011, 12:39
Couldn't agree more

We have been coming to the Island for many years and have NEVER stayed in a touristic Apartment that was in better condition, better stocked with appliances etc than ANY apartment we have stayed in on a residential complex.

Simple as that

You obviously haven't visited many legal touristic complexes then!

murph
11-10-2011, 23:06
You obviously haven't visited many legal touristic complexes then!

And why would you LEAP to that conclusion?

For your information it's Probably 50:50 I would think.

We stayed Touristic this year and there was No Washing Machine (which we have had previous 2 years in Residential), No Sun Loungers (Apparently they always got broken so have not been replaced), No Fans (Ditto) or Air Con, The freezer was temperamental, the Patio Doors on the two balconies were ''bolted'' through drilled holes with 4 inch steel bars as the locks were broken and the beds were as uncomfortable as any I have slept in anywhere in the world.

In the previous Touristic rental we endured a boiler that allowed us 1 and a half showers before it went cold (there are 4 of us)

I have quite frankly never had these problems in Residential apartments.

dokgolf
11-10-2011, 23:10
I'm with Murph on this one. In general, tourist complexes don't offer the same level of mod cons as private.

Tom & Sharon
11-10-2011, 23:40
And why would you LEAP to that conclusion?

For your information it's Probably 50:50 I would think.

We stayed Touristic this year and there was No Washing Machine (which we have had previous 2 years in Residential), No Sun Loungers (Apparently they always got broken so have not been replaced), No Fans (Ditto) or Air Con, The freezer was temperamental, the Patio Doors on the two balconies were ''bolted'' through drilled holes with 4 inch steel bars as the locks were broken and the beds were as uncomfortable as any I have slept in anywhere in the world.

In the previous Touristic rental we endured a boiler that allowed us 1 and a half showers before it went cold (there are 4 of us)

I have quite frankly never had these problems in Residential apartments.

Jesus Christ! When are you lot going to understand?

You can't take your hoidays in a residential apartment, just because it suits you better! It's against the law, and it really pees off the residents. Go in a hotel!

Rant over. I'm going to bed........................

murph
11-10-2011, 23:51
Jesus Christ! When are you lot going to understand?

You can't take your hoidays in a residential apartment, just because it suits you better! It's against the law, and it really pees off the residents. Go in a hotel!

Rant over. I'm going to bed........................

a) Please don't take the Lord's name in vain.

b) It's not against the law for me to rent an apartment in a Residential Complex, it's against the law for the owner to rent one out! Have you not been following this thread at all?

c) As one of ''Us Lot'' I was not saying it was right, I was saying the apartments in Residential complexes are, in general, in nicer condition and better equipped and better looked after.

d) ''Go in a Hotel'' How DARE you tell me where to take my holidays.

You appear to be a quite rude and obnoxious person

AL JAY
12-10-2011, 00:59
Jesus Christ! When are you lot going to understand?

You can't take your hoidays in a residential apartment, just because it suits you better! It's against the law, and it really pees off the residents. Go in a hotel!

Rant over. I'm going to bed........................
You can rant and rave all you like, you can even underline and write in orange ... We won't change our minds and are not breaking any laws... Its not rocket science! ...Why try and fix something that ain't broke!!! .

My favourite part of this thread is when you get riled because loads of us like staying in luxury,I said on the old forum i would still be staying in apartments where i want to stay in ten years time and not one person challenged my statement,because in all honesty the law is unworkable. I totally agree with murph and im happy as Larry it annoys you! :raspberry: *Must remember to phone Uncle Pepé*:wink:

timmylish
12-10-2011, 02:40
Ooooh!
A bit of agro coming back to this thread.

hailfuzz
12-10-2011, 08:13
Jesus Christ! When are you lot going to understand?

You can't take your hoidays in a residential apartment, just because it suits you better! It's against the law, and it really pees off the residents. Go in a hotel!

Rant over. I'm going to bed........................

You mean it really pees "YOU" off, i dont think its a fair assumption that you speak for all. nite nite !

Loaded
12-10-2011, 08:44
Lol it doesn't wind me up that people still wan to stay in residential apartments, I can completely understand the reasons behind it - what does wind me up is the constant references to "must join an owners extended family" etc when this "friends and family" clause has been invented by Brits in denial and does not appear in any tourist law

Angusjim
12-10-2011, 09:14
Jesus Christ! When are you lot going to understand?

You can't take your hoidays in a residential apartment, just because it suits you better! It's against the law, and it really pees off the residents. Go in a hotel!

Rant over. I'm going to bed........................

Sharon whilst it does not work on your complex there are many many complexes where it does work very well with a mixture of residents, long lets and holiday lets I know it works well on the complex that I normally stay on as we previously owned on the complex, so it does not "pee off " ALL residents as you have stated :)

stevem
12-10-2011, 09:15
a) Please don't take the Lord's name in vain.

b) It's not against the law for me to rent an apartment in a Residential Complex, it's against the law for the owner to rent one out! Have you not been following this thread at all?

c) As one of ''Us Lot'' I was not saying it was right, I was saying the apartments in Residential complexes are, in general, in nicer condition and better equipped and better looked after.

d) ''Go in a Hotel'' How DARE you tell me where to take my holidays.

You appear to be a quite rude and obnoxious person

I'm going to keep this short and have no desire to fall out with anyone. But does anyone have an idea why there are "residential" and "touristic" complexes?

Yes you pay for your holidays and as you put it, you holiday where you want to. Have you had even a slight thought while you are holidaying in your residential complex for the people who really do live and work there?

You may think that being quiet at night is the be all and end all of everything? Or that picking your case up instead of dragging it across the tiles after a late night arrival is sufficient?
Your wife (or yourself if that floats your boat ;) ) taking off her heeled shoes when in the apartment to stop the noise rattling downstairs at night?

But what about during the day when the residents that have been serving food all night for your holiday or serving you drinks til the wee small hours have to catch up on their sleep?
Do you gag the kids to keep them quiet or ban them from the pool?

I speak from experience of just this. My partner and I used to work til 3, 4 or even 5 in the morning and sleep during the day. We lived on a "residential" apartment block where certain owners rented to tourists or "extended family"

Did they have any thought for us poor sods who were working and living there? No, cases being dragged across tiled floors at all hours, kids being kids in the pool. A lot of residents had to sleep during the day, do holiday makers care about that? No of course they don't because they're on their holiday.

That's why "residential" is just that and "touristic" is what it is. If you're unfortunate enough to live on a "touristic" complex then you expect noise etc. But if you live on a "residential" why should you put up with holiday makers noise?

Tom & Sharon
12-10-2011, 09:25
a) Please don't take the Lord's name in vain.

b) It's not against the law for me to rent an apartment in a Residential Complex, it's against the law for the owner to rent one out! Have you not been following this thread at all?

c) As one of ''Us Lot'' I was not saying it was right, I was saying the apartments in Residential complexes are, in general, in nicer condition and better equipped and better looked after.

d) ''Go in a Hotel'' How DARE you tell me where to take my holidays.

You appear to be a quite rude and obnoxious person


You can rant and rave all you like, you can even underline and write in orange ... We won't change our minds and are not breaking any laws... Its not rocket science! ...Why try and fix something that ain't broke!!! .

My favourite part of this thread is when you get riled because loads of us like staying in luxury,I said on the old forum i would still be staying in apartments where i want to stay in ten years time and not one person challenged my statement,because in all honesty the law is unworkable. I totally agree with murph and im happy as Larry it annoys you! :raspberry: *Must remember to phone Uncle Pepé*:wink:

Just as a matter of interest, if the holidaymaker were to be fined as well as the owner, would you still insist on staying somewhere you shouldn't?

As far as being rude and obnoxious is concerned, there is nothing more rude, obnoxious, arrogant and selfish, as blatantly holidaying somewhere you're not wanted, and not giving a monkey's toss about anyone but your own holiday wants.

Angusjim
12-10-2011, 09:28
I'm going to keep this short and have no desire to fall out with anyone. But does anyone have an idea why there are "residential" and "touristic" complexes?

Yes you pay for your holidays and as you put it, you holiday where you want to. Have you had even a slight thought while you are holidaying in your residential complex for the people who really do live and work there?

You may think that being quiet at night is the be all and end all of everything? Or that picking your case up instead of dragging it across the tiles after a late night arrival is sufficient?
Your wife (or yourself if that floats your boat ;) ) taking off her heeled shoes when in the apartment to stop the noise rattling downstairs at night?

But what about during the day when the residents that have been serving food all night for your holiday or serving you drinks til the wee small hours have to catch up on their sleep?
Do you gag the kids to keep them quiet or ban them from the pool?

I speak from experience of just this. My partner and I used to work til 3, 4 or even 5 in the morning and sleep during the day. We lived on a "residential" apartment block where certain owners rented to tourists or "extended family"

Did they have any thought for us poor sods who were working and living there? No, cases being dragged across tiled floors at all hours, kids being kids in the pool. A lot of residents had to sleep during the day, do holiday makers care about that? No of course they don't because they're on their holiday.

That's why "residential" is just that and "touristic" is what it is. If you're unfortunate enough to live on a "touristic" complex then you expect noise etc. But if you live on a "residential" why should you put up with holiday makers noise?

The biggest noise problem I found when I stayed in my apartment was the Spanish neighbours to the right who could not speak without shouting and having their TV blaring until early hours of the morning or the tenents on long lets returning in the early hours of the morning clumping around upstairs for an hour and playing music etc at 2,3,4am in the morning. So all issues are not with tourists it is many cases inconsiderate RESIDENTS

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 10:00
That's why "residential" is just that and "touristic" is what it is. If you're unfortunate enough to live on a "touristic" complex then you expect noise etc. But if you live on a "residential" why should you put up with holiday makers noise?

because like it or not you might be in the middle of a large tourist resort and many "owners" will be using there second holiday homes for their holidays.

if you dont want to see or hear holiday makers then live off resort. :)

Added after 3 minutes:

soemof the noisiest residnets on our complex are

owners with dogs

workers who come home in the early hours cooking and banging about and playing mar jong

Community living is about compromise on all sides and a bit of live and let live.

dokgolf
12-10-2011, 10:06
I'm going to keep this short and have no desire to fall out with anyone. But does anyone have an idea why there are "residential" and "touristic" complexes?

Yes you pay for your holidays and as you put it, you holiday where you want to. Have you had even a slight thought while you are holidaying in your residential complex for the people who really do live and work there?

You may think that being quiet at night is the be all and end all of everything? Or that picking your case up instead of dragging it across the tiles after a late night arrival is sufficient?
Your wife (or yourself if that floats your boat ;) ) taking off her heeled shoes when in the apartment to stop the noise rattling downstairs at night?

But what about during the day when the residents that have been serving food all night for your holiday or serving you drinks til the wee small hours have to catch up on their sleep?
Do you gag the kids to keep them quiet or ban them from the pool?

I speak from experience of just this. My partner and I used to work til 3, 4 or even 5 in the morning and sleep during the day. We lived on a "residential" apartment block where certain owners rented to tourists or "extended family"

Did they have any thought for us poor sods who were working and living there? No, cases being dragged across tiled floors at all hours, kids being kids in the pool. A lot of residents had to sleep during the day, do holiday makers care about that? No of course they don't because they're on their holiday.

That's why "residential" is just that and "touristic" is what it is. If you're unfortunate enough to live on a "touristic" complex then you expect noise etc. But if you live on a "residential" why should you put up with holiday makers noise?

My brothers kids use the pool when they are staying in his apartment. I don't see the difference between the noise they make and the noise tourist kids make.

Also, this thread is just turning into an echo of the "other" one.

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 10:12
My brothers kids use the pool when they are staying in his apartment. I don't see the difference between the noise they make and the noise tourist kids make.

Also, this thread is just turning into an echo of the "other" one.

thas because legally they are all "residents" and has such are all required to obey the community house rules and the civil laws regardless.

dokgolf
12-10-2011, 10:28
You've lost me on this one. ???

TOTO 99
12-10-2011, 11:09
Why would anyone who wants to live in perfect peace and tranquility purchase a property in South Tenerife, the most popular winter holiday destination the brochures have on offer?
There can be no doubt that the island would have been beautifully peaceful without the arrival of tourists but unfortunately that would have put the property prices out of reach of the majority of current ex-pats.
Tenerife is not a private island or an old folks home. I am a tourist, see you in November.:)

stevem
12-10-2011, 12:07
Why would anyone who wants to live in perfect peace and tranquility purchase a property in South Tenerife, the most popular winter holiday destination the brochures have on offer?
There can be no doubt that the island would have been beautifully peaceful without the arrival of tourists but unfortunately that would have put the property prices out of reach of the majority of current ex-pats.
Tenerife is not a private island or an old folks home. I am a tourist, see you in November.:)

And hopefully you will stay in one of the brochure "touristic" hotels and complexes and have a wonderful time, I'm sure you will. :)

Nobody is saying it's a private island??? Just illegal lettings in "residential" complexes.

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 12:14
Why would anyone who wants to live in perfect peace and tranquility purchase a property in South Tenerife, the most popular winter holiday destination the brochures have on offer?
There can be no doubt that the island would have been beautifully peaceful without the arrival of tourists but unfortunately that would have put the property prices out of reach of the majority of current ex-pats.
Tenerife is not a private island or an old folks home. I am a tourist, see you in November.:)

Spot on why dont some people get it???? :c2:

stevem
12-10-2011, 12:17
Spot on why dont some people get it???? :c2:

Get what? Seem to have missed the point altogether in my humble opinion. IE Illegal lettings in "residential" complexes? And the question of why there are "touristic" and "residential" complexes?

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 12:18
Nobody is saying it's a private island??? Just illegal lettings in "residential" complexes.

lettings are not illegal per se what is illegal in "openly offering the accommodation to tourists"

Which in my book excludes any restrictions on private arrangments and invitations to family members and close friends.

I know this isnt explite in the Letting Laws but neither does it stae it is excluded.

I have raised this with our complex administrators and they have confirmed this is correct.

Added after 19 minutes:


Get what?

1. IMHO it is unreasonable and unrealistic to live on a complex that is populated to a large degree by UK based residents who use the property as second holiday homes for themselves.

2. Its unreasonable and unrealistic to live in a large popular holiday resort and not expect to see and hear holidaymakers.

Its unreasonable and unrealistic to rely on tourism and holidaymakers to earn a living and then to choose to live amongst them and complain about them.

3. Complexes are designated residential because the the developers have no choice atm as the authorities have decided to have a moritorium on granting touristic licenses.

stevem
12-10-2011, 12:44
1. IMHO it is unreasonable and unrealistic to live on a complex that is populated to a large degree by UK based residents who use the property as second holiday homes for themselves.

2. Its unreasonable and unrealistic to live in a large popular holiday resort and not expect to see and hear holidaymakers.

Its unreasonable and unrealistic to rely on tourism and holidaymakers to earn a living and then to choose to live amongst them and complain about them.

3. Complexes are designated residential because the the developers have no choice atm as the authorities have decided to have a moritorium on granting touristic licenses.

That's you opinion on it, and you're entitled to it. Thank you for answer 3 as I honestly had no idea. :)

I feel if you buy on a touristic complex then you know full well what you are buying in to! But surely buying on a residential complex???

timmylish
12-10-2011, 12:52
Although I can see both sides on this subject surely, as others have said, if you are a resident don,t stay in holidaying areas! Look at us. We have lived in Cabo Blanco just 7 or 8 minutes from LC or now, further up the road, in San Isidro. When I was working the last people I wanted to bump into in the evenings or W/ends would be tourists doing their (quite correctly) holidaying thing. Even now, if we fancy coming into "town" its maximum 15 minutes in the car. I want the holidaymakers to have a great time and come back year in year out and keep my home as one of the number one holidaying destinations for future generations.

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 12:52
That's you opinion on it, and you're entitled to it. Thank you for answer 3 as I honestly had no idea. :)

I feel if you buy on a touristic complex then you know full well what you are buying in to! But surely buying on a residential complex???

Thank you on both counts

For the record I think what is needed on this issue is a degree of compromise on both sides of the argement.

Clearly commercial advertising and lettings on residential sites is illegal activity and all owners should rspect this and act within the laws.

Conversely full time residnets should be realistic in their expectations and allow non resident owners to use their properties as second holiday homes for themselves and their invited guests.

All residents (regardless of the designation) should respect their neighbours and act accordingly in accordance with the community rules and the civil laws of the islands.

stevem
12-10-2011, 13:04
Thank you on both counts

For the record I think what is needed on this issue is a degree of compromise on both sides of the argement.

Clearly commercial advertising and lettings on residential sites is illegal activity and all owners should rspect this and act within the laws.

Conversely full time residnets should be realistic in their expectations and allow non resident owners to use their properties as second holiday homes for themselves and their invited guests.

All residents (regardless of the designation) should respect their neighbours and act accordingly in accordance with the community rules and the civil laws of the islands.

Agree on all counts there Peter, good post. As you say there has to compromise for the "family and friends"

Just not a change of occupation for any Tom, **** and Harriet. :)

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 13:18
Agree on all counts there Peter, good post. As you say there has to compromise for the "family and friends"

Just not a change of occupation for any Tom, **** and Harriet. :)

the family and friends issue is an important one IMHO but thats not to say it should be abused.

extended family and friends for example or 40 weeks a year usage which is likley to be deemed commercial activity regardless.

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 13:44
the family and friends issue is an important one IMHO but thats not to say it should be abused.

extended family and friends for example or 40 weeks a year usage which is likley to be deemed commercial activity regardless.

Couldn't agree more Peter, however if I purchased my own holiday apartment for my own use plus my own family/friends and they all followed the rules of the complex and committee I wouldn't expect any outside interference as to for how long they could stay etc. Any more than I would expect neighbours at home to decide for how long I could have visitors to stay in my own house.

TOTO 99
12-10-2011, 13:47
Can someone help me with this one please?
Do the majority of residential complexes have an element of illegal ( tourist ) letting or are there only a few?

stevem
12-10-2011, 13:54
Can someone help me with this one please?
Do the majority of residential complexes have an element of illegal ( tourist ) letting or are there only a few?

I would say it's hard to tell. But until recently there seemed to be an awful lot of ads on commercial websites. Enough to deem further investigation by the authorities.

But I'm sure someone better informed than me will be along to prove me wrong lol :)

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 13:56
Can someone help me with this one please?
Do the majority of residential complexes have an element of illegal ( tourist ) letting or are there only a few?

Not if they have got any sense.

The authorities have decided to act against those openly offering commercial short term touristic lettings without the necessary registration (which isnt available on a Residential site) by issuing fines against those identified as advertising on internet sites such as Owners Direct and the like.

The fines have been classed has Serious and set at 18,000E (subject to appeals.)

Those owners with any sense are currently acting within the currentrestrictions and using them with some discretions has to who the invite personally as guests.

Loaded
12-10-2011, 13:57
They can't put anything in the laws about friends and family because as soon as they do the illegal renters will tear the ar*e out of it.

We have several owners who claim they don't need a management agent because they just use the apartment for friends and family, it's in use at least 40 -45 weeks per year and last week one of my regulars was staying there....

TOTO 99
12-10-2011, 14:01
Not if they have got any sense.

The authorities have decided to act against those openly offering commercial short term touristic lettings without the necessary registration (which isnt available on a Residential site) by issuing fines against those identified as advertising on internet sites such as Owners Direct and the like.

The fines have been classed has Serious and set at 18,000E (subject to appeals.)

Those owners with any sense are currently acting within the currentrestrictions and using them with some discretions has to who the invite personally as guests.

Thanks Peter, but I am just trying to get a realistic picture of the scale rather than the rights and wrongs, if that makes sense. I know it's wrong, but is it rife (majority) or does it only affect a small percentage?

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 14:03
Can someone help me with this one please?
Do the majority of residential complexes have an element of illegal ( tourist ) letting or are there only a few?

This is whats a bit laughable about the whole thing in my opinion.
A large proportion of owners on most residential properties in the centre of main tourist resorts would, I guess, rent out - a check on holiday rental adverts would confirm this.
Anyone who bought on one of these, eg El Mirador, Dinastia, to give examples of modern ones, would be very naive to think they are all going to be a bunch of happy full time residents with no holidaymakers living on them.
Don't forget, anyone can serve a Denuncia against someone who they think is going against the rules of the complex and it speaks volumes that very rarely this happens, which seems to indicate to me that the majority of owners in these areas dont have a problem with it.
Speaking from personal experience the nightmare scenarios are the long term tenants with their lack of care about any rules or regulations, about looking after the apartment, keeping the balcony clean and tidy instead of storing junk on it because they have more belongings than the size of the apartment they are renting, animals bought and then abandoned when they move on after a few months .... all generalizations I know but no more than the generalizations on here about holidaymakers.
The way some residents talk you would think they are alien beings.

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 14:07
They can't put anything in the laws about friends and family because as soon as they do the illegal renters will tear the ar*e out of it.

We have several owners who claim they don't need a management agent because they just use the apartment for friends and family, it's in use at least 40 -45 weeks per year and last week one of my regulars was staying there....

Then clearly they are abusing the law as it stands and it is fairly obvious that this is a commercial activity and on a touristic site should be registered with the sole agent.

Such an obvious and clear breech is just inviting a visit from the inspectorate.

Thats not to say all legitmate use should be treated the same IMHO.

The law sets out what IS NOT ALLOWED..which is openly advertising short term lets and commercial rental activity.

Yes it makes no reference to family and friends use but then it doesnt need to as this is a legitimate use.

moonlighter
12-10-2011, 14:14
This is whats a bit laughable about the whole thing in my opinion.
A large proportion of owners on most residential properties in the centre of main tourist resorts would, I guess, rent out - a check on holiday rental adverts would confirm this.
Anyone who bought on one of these, eg El Mirador, Dinastia, to give examples of modern ones, would be very naive to think they are all going to be a bunch of happy full time residents with no holidaymakers living on them.
Don't forget, anyone can serve a Denuncia against someone who they think is going against the rules of the complex and it speaks volumes that very rarely this happens, which seems to indicate to me that the majority of owners in these areas dont have a problem with it.
Speaking from personal experience the nightmare scenarios are the long term tenants with their lack of care about any rules or regulations, about looking after the apartment, keeping the balcony clean and tidy instead of storing junk on it because they have more belongings than the size of the apartment they are renting, animals bought and then abandoned when they move on after a few months .... all generalizations I know but no more than the generalizations on here about holidaymakers.
The way some residents talk you would think they are alien beings.

If everyone who bought on these complexes (just using these 2 as an example) were told at the time of purchase, in no uncertain therms that they 'it is strictly forbidden for you to rent out your apartment to people you have never met' then I would think that 70% of them would still be empty today.

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 14:19
Thanks Peter, but I am just trying to get a realistic picture of the scale rather than the rights and wrongs, if that makes sense. I know it's wrong, but is it rife (majority) or does it only affect a small percentage?

Rightly or wrongly it was rife amongst many non resident owners on residential sites.

This was IMO due the the fact that the authorities hadnt taken any action against a private owner in the past 15 years.

So why act now? I think the use of the internet was seen as out of hand and was projecting the wrong image of the island has a holidasy destination in the view of the authorities.

100s if not 1000s of adverts which was then in their faces so to speak and once the hotle groups demanded action they had to act.

What is also relevant is the fact that the current Canarian Minister of Tourism is a previous president of the Ashotel group which represents the interests of the large hotel chains.

dokgolf
12-10-2011, 14:23
Rightly or wrongly it was rife amongst many non resident owners on residential sites.

This was IMO due the the fact that the authorities hadnt taken any action against a private owner in the past 15 years.

So why act now? I think the use of the internet was seen as out of hand and was projecting the wrong image of the island has a holidasy destination in the view of the authorities.

100s if not 1000s of adverts which was then in their faces so to speak and once the hotle groups demanded action they had to act.

What is also relevant is the fact that the current Canarian Minister of Tourism is a previous president of the Ashotel group which represents the interests of the large hotel chains.

I think this may be the most telling fact of all!

TOTO 99
12-10-2011, 14:31
Thank you Peter.
I was in Tenerife when the law first came in. A lot of owners were in a state of panic back then because of course they had no idea it would take this long to implement..lol..
It would appear now to be a waiting game. I wonder if Michael O'leary reads this forum? It would be interesting to see if the airlines give it any credibility. :)

BobMac
12-10-2011, 14:44
They can't put anything in the laws about friends and family because as soon as they do the illegal renters will tear the ar*e out of it.

We have several owners who claim they don't need a management agent because they just use the apartment for friends and family, it's in use at least 40 -45 weeks per year and last week one of my regulars was staying there....

Below is an extract from a link posted earlier in this thread which was a reply from a lawyer who had investigated the legality of letting out a residential property as a result of a query from a worried owner which details the legal view on "Friends & Family"

"In accordance with the law rental accommodation in residential complexes is illegal.

People do try to side step this by saying they are allowing "friends & family" only to stay, however there is no mention in the laws about friends and family being allowed. Indeed the only thing close to this being mentioned is in article 31 of the 7/1995 law where it states the definition of tourist accommodation and tourist activity:

Tourist activities are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price.

It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence."

Loaded
12-10-2011, 14:53
Which could easily include friends if they are paying guests

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 14:56
Tourist activities are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price.


so therefore if the apartment is not offered openly to the public (ie advertised commercially) for a price ( ie for a commercial rental)

then any other activity ie family and friends who are invited privately and directly by the owners such use will therefore then be outside the restrictions on touristic use.


Which could easily include friends if they are paying guests

non of my guests pay for the use of the aparetment.

sunseeker
12-10-2011, 15:13
non of my guests pay for the use of the aparetment.what do they pay for then? or don't they pay? if so, can my family be your friends? :D

Angusjim
12-10-2011, 15:17
what do they pay for then? or don't they pay? if so, can my family be your friends? :D

Its 300 euros for the key but the apartment is free :laugh:

BobMac
12-10-2011, 15:17
"In accordance with the law rental accommodation in residential complexes is illegal.

Tourist activities are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price.

It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence."


so therefore if the apartment is not offered openly to the public (ie advertised commercially) for a price ( ie for a commercial rental)

then any other activity ie family and friends who are invited privately and directly by the owners such use will therefore then be outside the restrictions on touristic use.



non of my guests pay for the use of the aparetment.

I suspect that they could still be caught under the second part which would still define them as tourists under the law as it currently stands

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 15:19
what do they pay for then? or don't they pay? if so, can my family be your friends? :D

my guests are limited to either immediate family or very close friends so in the politest possible terms thats non of our business.

The total use excluding my own is very limited less than 10 weeks all told.

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 16:08
I suspect that they could still be caught under the second part which would still define them as tourists under the law as it currently stands

This is now the trouble with this thread and the preceding one - its a shame it cant just be plain facts, nothing else, no guesses, authorative statements from people not in authority, suspicions or even just plain mischief making comments!
If the whole thread just stuck to what was actually a fact it would be about a page and a half long. Instead we are all going round and round in circles.
These comments not aimed at you BobMac except to say they have had 15 years to date to "catch" anyone, especially deciding for what period of time a friend/relative could stay.
My escritura says nothing about any restrictions on who stays, or for what length of time, neither does our committee.

Bazzer
12-10-2011, 16:13
We have an apartment and come and go for most of the winter. During the summer months we allow close friends and family to use it, and like Peter, we take no payment or contribution whatsoever.

Now it's being suggested that not only that this is illegal, but (I've read somewhere on the forum), that my wife and I may be illegal because we aren't residents and could be classed as tourists.

Ridiculous. Let's just wait and see uh?

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 16:15
We have an apartment and come and go for most of the winter. During the summer months we allow close friends and family to use it, and like Peter, we take no payment or contribution whatsoever.

Now it's being suggested that not only that this is illegal, but (I've read somewhere on the forum), that my wife and I may be illegal because we aren't residents and could be classed as tourists.

Ridiculous. Let's just wait and see uh?

Yes and most people are talking out of their hats.

stevem
12-10-2011, 16:19
This is now the trouble with this thread and the preceding one - its a shame it cant just be plain facts, nothing else, no guesses, authorative statements from people not in authority, suspicions or even just plain mischief making comments!
If the whole thread just stuck to what was actually a fact it would be about a page and a half long. Instead we are all going round and round in circles.
These comments not aimed at you BobMac except to say they have had 15 years to date to "catch" anyone, especially deciding for what period of time a friend/relative could stay.
My escritura says nothing about any restrictions on who stays, or for what length of time, neither does our committee.

When you signed for your apartment did you agree to the rules of the community and the licence under which it is operated?

Just wondering :)

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 16:32
When you signed for your apartment did you agree to the rules of the community and the licence under which it is operated?

Just wondering :)

Of course, I did, 13 years ago. And the community rules are addressed to "All owners, guests and tenants", not "owners, their guests for just a short period and tenants"

stevem
12-10-2011, 16:50
Of course, I did, 13 years ago. And the community rules are addressed to "All owners, guests and tenants", not "owners, their guests for just a short period and tenants"

So (playing devils advocate) that would include the terms of the touristic/residential licence?

If those terms have changed in the period of the 13 years I guess you automatically agree to them?

Is a holidaying tourist a tenant?

I certainly don't see how an owner can be classed as a tourist. But friends and family certainly could be if the letter of the licence/law is applied ???

Loaded
12-10-2011, 16:53
The owner can of course stay in their own apartment without being a resident

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 16:59
So (playing devils advocate) that would include the terms of the touristic/residential licence?

If those terms have changed in the period of the 13 years I guess you automatically agree to them?

Is a holidaying tourist a tenant?

I certainly don't see how an owner can be classed as a tourist. But friends and family certainly could be if the letter of the licence/law is applied ???

But thats the nub of the whole matter, why this so called law has been around for 15 years without anyone in authority defining who is a guest:spin:
No changes to anything have been made in the time I have been an owner.:)


The owner can of course stay in their own apartment without being a resident

Thats damned decent of everyone:)

stevem
12-10-2011, 17:02
Hmmmm global economic slowdown? Excuse for government to pull in some nice revenue? I wonder.................

BobMac
12-10-2011, 17:13
But thats the nub of the whole matter, why this so called law has been around for 15 years without anyone in authority defining who is a guest:spin:)

With the law defining a tourist as follows

"It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence."

a guest could be construed to be a tourist quite easily.

I know this law stinks but it was passed by the Canarian government 15 years ago and the fact that they have waited till now to enforce it is completely irrelevant - as it stands at the moment it clearly defines what they see as touristic activity, what constitutes a tourist, that it is illegal to rent as a holiday let on a residential complex or on a touristic complex other than through the onsite agent and doesn't give the green light to "Friends & Family".

It was challenged in the EU courts apparently and they upheld the Canarian governments right to self-govern and pass their own laws, so whether we like it or not, we will have to learn to live with it as it is written OR until such time as they realise that it is unworkable in it's present form and amend it.

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 17:20
With the law defining a tourist as follows

"It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence."

a guest could be construed to be a tourist quite easily.

I know this law stinks but it was passed by the Canarian government 15 years ago and the fact that they have waited till now to enforce it is completely irrelevant - as it stands at the moment it clearly defines what they see as touristic activity, what constitutes a tourist, that it is illegal to rent as a holiday let on a residential complex or on a touristic complex other than through the onsite agent and doesn't give the green light to "Friends & Family".

It was challenged in the EU courts apparently and they upheld the Canarian governments right to self-govern and pass their own laws, so whether we like it or not, we will have to learn to live with it as it is written OR until such time as they realise that it is unworkable in it's present form and amend it.

I dont disagree with your sentiments except the only thing challenged was the right of the Canarians to have their own touristic laws instead of falling in with mainland Spains.
I think everyone realises in its present form it has always been unworkable, which is why it has taken all these years to try to sort itand it isnt sorted yet!

BobMac
12-10-2011, 17:28
I dont disagree with your sentiments except the only thing challenged was the right of the Canarians to have their own touristic laws instead of falling in with mainland Spains.
I think everyone realises in its present form it has always been unworkable, which is why it has taken all these years to try to sort itand it isnt sorted yet!

As someone who loves holidaying on Tenerife, the thing I find strange with this whole fiasco is the fact that nobody at the highest level seems to recognise the impact that enforcing this law, as it stands at present, is likely to have on the economy given that the Canarian economy is almost totally dependent on the tourist industry.

Balcony
12-10-2011, 17:39
Like Greece, many people is Spain too readily see paying tax as not for them! Add to that in Tenerife (and many Spanish coastal regions) it is so patently obvious how many 'illegals' there are - foreign residents (that'd be the Brits) who don't register as such, people working on the black etc etc. Foreigners are, however, an easy target and why try to educate and change the habits of a lifetime for the indiginous population when you have a captive audience available to be at the butt of, shall we say, only as an example you understand, hotels complaining that people don't stay with them coz they offer such lousy service/accomodation and prefer staying in apartments?

Sorry, but it's incumbent on everyone to pay their taxes. Those taxes are what pays for everything - even if its to pay the poor old pensioner who retires at 50. LB!

Red Devil
12-10-2011, 17:39
As someone who loves holidaying on Tenerife, the thing I find strange with this whole fiasco is the fact that nobody at the highest level seems to recognise the impact that enforcing this law, as it stands at present, is likely to have on the economy given that the Canarian economy is almost totally dependent on the tourist industry.

I think they realise very well the impact it would have which is why they have dragged their feet for so long, otherwise they could have fined thousands of people, sharpish, many years ago.
As suggested elsewhere, I personally think the Inspectorate get a lot of pressure from the very powerful hotel lobby, who wants everyone to stay in their nice shiny new 5 star hotels, so they keep doing token little bits to appease them?
We shall see.

dokgolf
12-10-2011, 17:56
Would anyone be able to post a direct translation of the actual legal documents where this law is published?

AL JAY
12-10-2011, 19:12
What makes me smile on here is that none of this was mentioned years ago, I have been staying in the same front line well run complex for the last 27 years! It is very well run and the pool and surrounding area's are first class, It has never ever been rowdy day or night because it has its own security team! I had 11 consecutive New Years celebrations there,and often used to stay there at least another 3 times per year which equates to approx 100 holidays since 1983,spent my money in local bars/restaurantes/shops etc but since the start of this year i now have posters coming on telling me to stay elsewhere! One new year we tried a hotel for the 2 weeks, never ever again, Give me the apartments any day of the week for location alone! Can you imagine all the thousands of empty beds there would be this Christmas/New Year...But i know and most on here know that these beds will all be filled to capacity this year and for many years to come, If they were empty it would be financial suicide for the island! * Be very careful what you wish for* Don't just think of your own complexes benefitting from this silly feeble law,for once think of the wider implications for business as a whole! As someone said on here it seems to be a token feeble gesture by this tourism geezer to appease the hotel industry! Whilst im on my soapbox i would like some of you on here to go and take a look at some of the grotty touristic accomodation that is on offer, Parque Cattleya/Barranco bungalows opposite the Columbus, Playa Azul, Laguna park 2 to name just a few,i wouldn't stay in them rent free! Would you???

Loaded
12-10-2011, 19:49
Would anyone be able to post a direct translation of the actual legal documents where this law is published?

Google translate copy and paste or if you want a better one read my article http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/article.asp?articleid=60

Peterrayner
12-10-2011, 21:13
The owner can of course stay in their own apartment without being a resident

but according to your interpretation of the law even owners (myself for example) are also "tourists" because they are staying in accommodation of a temporay nature without giving up their permanent residence and so therefore illegally. ???

Added after 3 minutes:

that should have course read has "Visiting owners"

dokgolf
12-10-2011, 21:39
Google translate copy and paste or if you want a better one read my article http://www.propertyforsaleintenerife.com/article.asp?articleid=60

Many thanks Loaded.

Loaded
12-10-2011, 21:50
Ha ha i like it peter!

Although im sure there is a law sonewhere (not a tourist law) that says the owner of a property can live in the property or stay there at will providing it has the correct habilitation licences ..... We'll pretend such a law doesn't exist to indulge your last comment: the law also says : "Tourist activities are are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price. A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."

I think the key thing here as far as the owner is concerned is that he isn't charging himself to stay in the property. This naturally should carry across to friends and family too.

In summary I think if these criteria are met:

1) the people are not of permanent residence in the property .

2) money has changed hands for
Their stay.

Then it is a commercial tourist let.

If one or both are the opposite then they will be Considered not to Be a commercial tourist let.

stevem
13-10-2011, 06:18
but according to your interpretation of the law even owners (myself for example) are also "tourists" because they are staying in accommodation of a temporay nature without giving up their permanent residence and so therefore illegally. ???

Added after 3 minutes:

that should have course read has "Visiting owners" I think you're getting a bit extreme here Peter. You are the owner of the property and not paying through a commercial website or paying rent. (Not inc a mortgage) :)

Peterrayner
13-10-2011, 06:38
I think the key thing here as far as the owner is concerned is that he isn't charging himself to stay in the property. This naturally should carry across to friends and family too.

Well clearly it has been established that firstly offering the the accommodation openly to the public at large ie advertising is illegal given that is what the current fines have been levied for.

and yes it would appear that privately invited family and personal friends would be allowed providing no commercial rental was charged ie a set sum per week.

Marcus Cabrera SL is of the opinion that some level of reasonable contribution for the cleaning and other legitimate expenses water electricity etc. would be allowed providing the use was limited (ie not 40 weeks a year) and of course an annual tax return was included which I have just paid at about 200E.

My brother, son, daughter and grandson have all stayed this year and our 2 closest friends have been twice with me this year and I havent charged them at all although they have insisted on treating me to either something for the apartment or a very nice meal out and a couple of very close friends who insisted on paying the cleaner direct and leaving something for the electricity and water.

Loaded
13-10-2011, 08:32
Peter I think you're safe!

Peterrayner
13-10-2011, 09:29
Not according to some of my fellow owners.

One in particular has taken to pushing letters under the doors informing guests if you are not the owner then you are staying here illegally and you are not welcome.....:dontknow:

golf birdie
13-10-2011, 09:32
don't think for one minute a fine won't be issued for having friends/family staying. I know someone who had a fine for running an illegal taxi when taking an in-law at the airport. Because they could not prove at the time of the stop they were related it was classed as an offence. The fine got cancelled after a time but it took a bit of effort and time. Don't for one minute think the powers to be are too smart to kill the golden goose.

Peterrayner
13-10-2011, 09:42
Don't for one minute think the powers to be are too smart to kill the golden goose.

I think we will see next summer whether that statement is accurate or not.

Loaded
13-10-2011, 09:46
Peter the other owners are clearly IDIOTS

golf birdie
13-10-2011, 09:46
I think we will see next summer whether that statement is accurate or not.

should or read ''Don't for one minute think the powers to be are too smart not to try and kill the golden goose''

Peterrayner
13-10-2011, 09:50
Peter the other owners are clearly IDIOTS

No not all of them just a couple who insist on acting daft :)

Things have mostly settled down and nearly all internet ads seem to have disappeared.

Angusjim
25-11-2011, 13:37
On the basis that I can no longer book my "illegal apartments" that I use can anyone guide me to "legal" complexes with the requirements that I have
1 Very large private terrace or roof terrace with sun all day and sunbeds ( we don't like using communal pool area etc )
2 Very quiet and well kept complex preferrably with no kids running around ( been there done that )
3 Apartment to be in 1st class condition andhave English TV and have full compliment of electrical appliances incl washing machine, dvd players etc
4 Be in San Eugenio area ( not up the side of a mountain )

This is genuine enquiry because the options I have seen / stayed at in the by gone years are not an option for us to old and fussy now. We currently have a choice of around 6 apartments we currently use and love. If these become unavailable where will we go your suggestions would be welcome

stevem
25-11-2011, 14:05
On the basis that I can no longer book my "illegal apartments" that I use can anyone guide me to "legal" complexes with the requirements that I have
1 Very large private terrace or roof terrace with sun all day and sunbeds ( we don't like using communal pool area etc )
2 Very quiet and well kept complex preferrably with no kids running around ( been there done that )
3 Apartment to be in 1st class condition andhave English TV and have full compliment of electrical appliances incl washing machine, dvd players etc
4 Be in San Eugenio area ( not up the side of a mountain )

This is genuine enquiry because the options I have seen / stayed at in the by gone years are not an option for us to old and fussy now. We currently have a choice of around 6 apartments we currently use and love. If these become unavailable where will we go your suggestions would be welcome

Jim, unless you can find your requirements though a travel agent/letting agent. Then your best bet is to buy your own apartment on a residential complex. (just don't let it out illegally) ;)

Angusjim
25-11-2011, 14:55
Jim, unless you can find your requirements though a travel agent/letting agent. Then your best bet is to buy your own apartment on a residential complex. (just don't let it out illegally) ;)

Steven thats the main issue its nearly impossible to get what I and many others want on the legal complexes they are simply not set up for our requirements, the main focus on most if not all the holiday complexes is people gathering round the pool, as I said in the past we did that when the kids were young but now its our time and we now enjoy our privacy. I used to own on a resdential complex and may well buy one again especially if the prices continue to drop at the current rate:)

Loaded
25-11-2011, 19:03
Sounds like you should just buy one again to be honest. Although a lot of people on here would love to have everything you just asked for 99% won't or don't need it and if given a choice between what you're asking for at 500 a week and what's "the norm" for 300 a week then most holiday makers would take the 300 option.

Red Devil
25-11-2011, 19:40
On the basis that I can no longer book my "illegal apartments" that I use can anyone guide me to "legal" complexes with the requirements that I have
1 Very large private terrace or roof terrace with sun all day and sunbeds ( we don't like using communal pool area etc )
2 Very quiet and well kept complex preferrably with no kids running around ( been there done that )
3 Apartment to be in 1st class condition andhave English TV and have full compliment of electrical appliances incl washing machine, dvd players etc
4 Be in San Eugenio area ( not up the side of a mountain )

This is genuine enquiry because the options I have seen / stayed at in the by gone years are not an option for us to old and fussy now. We currently have a choice of around 6 apartments we currently use and love. If these become unavailable where will we go your suggestions would be welcome

Los Geranios, San Eugenio (you need one with a double balcony)
Plenty of private ads on holiday lettings sites or try www.alandowtenerife.co.uk

Angusjim
26-11-2011, 08:35
Sounds like you should just buy one again to be honest. Although a lot of people on here would love to have everything you just asked for 99% won't or don't need it and if given a choice between what you're asking for at 500 a week and what's "the norm" for 300 a week then most holiday makers would take the 300 option.

I may well buy another but it seems a pity that a lot of people are going to be put off coming because they cannot get accomodation that suits their requirements

Added after 2 minutes:


Los Geranios, San Eugenio (you need one with a double balcony)
Plenty of private ads on holiday lettings sites or try www.alandowtenerife.co.uk

Great complex in great location with apartments that I would rent but no touristic licence. Main downside JungleJim lives there don't know if my liver could stand the pace lol

Loaded
26-11-2011, 10:04
I accept that some will be put off because they can't get the standard they want for the price they have been getting but I think this amount will be minuscule in the grand scheme of things

Red Devil
26-11-2011, 11:12
I may well buy another but it seems a pity that a lot of people are going to be put off coming because they cannot get accomodation that suits their requirements

Added after 2 minutes:



Great complex in great location with apartments that I would rent but no touristic licence. Main downside JungleJim lives there don't know if my liver could stand the pace lol

What makes you think they are not touristic? Always have been. The hotel group (Hovima) pulled out a few years ago but they are still a tourist site

Peterrayner
26-11-2011, 11:31
What makes you think they are not touristic? Always have been. The hotel group (Hovima) pulled out a few years ago but they are still a tourist site

might be touristic but if their is no sole agent with 50%+1 control then lettings are illegal :(

Angusjim
26-11-2011, 12:11
might be touristic but if their is no sole agent with 50%+1 control then lettings are illegal :(

I seem to remember Junglejim saying somewhere in the illegal letting thread that there was no sole agent with 50+1 maybe he will come on and confirm situation

Peterrayner
26-11-2011, 12:28
I seem to remember Junglejim saying somewhere in the illegal letting thread that there was no sole agent with 50+1 maybe he will come on and confirm situation

some older complexes which had multiple agencies with no overall control but which predated the 1995 law seem to be able to operate but maybe that is also changing with this lates purge. ???

Red Devil
26-11-2011, 13:00
some older complexes which had multiple agencies with no overall control but which predated the 1995 law seem to be able to operate but maybe that is also changing with this lates purge. ???

I'm sure thats whats operating there, a couple of agents/whatever had got together to form a majority.
I know someone has been fined but believe he used a 3rd party agent, not one one of the ones on site

junglejim
26-11-2011, 13:52
I seem to remember Junglejim saying somewhere in the illegal letting thread that there was no sole agent with 50+1 maybe he will come on and confirm situation

Correct AJ - individual was fined for no inspection book or complaints book and sign - he sold the apartment earlier this year !

7,000 plus apartments being fined - I make that 7,000 prospective family bookings for at least 30 weeks in year - suppose they spend €500 per week on average - that´s a loss to the local economy of at least €110million every year !
Makes sense in a country on it´s knees rather than normalise and allow people to run legally! :ashamed:

MallorcaResiden
26-11-2011, 15:13
If it's anything like Mallorca. They could claw back some of the billions in back handers. That would help the entire community (except those at fault).

Peter

delderek
26-11-2011, 15:44
Correct AJ - individual was fined for no inspection book or complaints book and sign - he sold the apartment earlier this year !

7,000 plus apartments being fined - I make that 7,000 prospective family bookings for at least 30 weeks in year - suppose they spend €500 per week on average - that´s a loss to the local economy of at least €110million every year !
Makes sense in a country on it´s knees rather than normalise and allow people to run legally! :ashamed:

But at a rough guess the fines will come to far more than this. see my previous post 126 million I would say.

Angusjim
27-11-2011, 09:15
But at a rough guess the fines will come to far more than this. see my previous post 126 million I would say.

When you read potential figures like this the cynic in me thinks this has been the plan from the authorities all along. Lets make a law then take peoples money for 15 years in the form of taxes etc from sales / purchases of property saying nothing but knowing all along they are breaking the law, then at the right moment we will implement the legislation and screw all the mugs for millions will help to cover up our short comings.

Peterrayner
27-11-2011, 09:34
The figure reported of a total of 7000 fines to be issued to private owners is staggering.

I know thats for the whole of the islands but the vast majority must be located on Tenerife with most of the balance on Lanzarote with an odd few on the smaller islands.

That amount must far exceed those advertising on UK based websites surely ????

So where are the extras coming from ???

Angusjim
27-11-2011, 11:26
One of the arguments being put forward is that using the sole agent will be safer for people booking but Loaded has already admitted there are no industry bodies overseeing / guartanteeing them ( as ABTA etc in the UK ) so if there is any issues with the sole agents who sorts out any issues with regard for instance a sole agent going bankrupt. You are basically dealing with a group of self employed individuals, is this the way forward or will they be next to be sqeezed out by the big hotel groups who may also take this sector over as well to offer a better and safer booking system.

Loaded
27-11-2011, 12:01
It's arguable that a hotel group is less likely to go bankrupt than a private individual at the moment..... Seems the bigger the company the riskier the ground right now.

golf birdie
27-11-2011, 12:05
It's arguable that a hotel group is less likely to go bankrupt than a private individual at the moment..... Seems the bigger the company the riskier the ground right now.


just a question, what safeguards are in place with yor clients monies? I presume you hold quite a bit of their money at anytime.

Angusjim
27-11-2011, 12:30
It's arguable that a hotel group is less likely to go bankrupt than a private individual at the moment..... Seems the bigger the company the riskier the ground right now.

Not in my industry in the UK, at the moment big companies are squeezing the life out of small companies but it may be different in Tenerife. But that does not mean they cannot convince the authorities to make this happen as they seem to have their ear, where as you as individuals are only a very very small voice in this industry you should be careful what you wish for, you mean as much to them as the other individuals they currently are persecuting.

Loaded
27-11-2011, 13:52
just a question, what safeguards are in place with yor clients monies? I presume you hold quite a bit of their money at anytime.

The safeguards for our clients are that we pay on demand any money owed to owners and we own over 40 apartments on here anyway with no mortgages so it would take a while for us to be bankrupt or able to do a runner lol.

Angusjim
01-12-2011, 15:30
On the basis that I can no longer book my "illegal apartments" that I use can anyone guide me to "legal" complexes with the requirements that I have
1 Very large private terrace or roof terrace with sun all day and sunbeds ( we don't like using communal pool area etc )
2 Very quiet and well kept complex preferrably with no kids running around ( been there done that )
3 Apartment to be in 1st class condition andhave English TV and have full compliment of electrical appliances incl washing machine, dvd players etc
4 Be in San Eugenio area ( not up the side of a mountain )

This is genuine enquiry because the options I have seen / stayed at in the by gone years are not an option for us to old and fussy now. We currently have a choice of around 6 apartments we currently use and love. If these become unavailable where will we go your suggestions would be welcome

Due to no suggestions for above I have just booked an apartment for March which meets all my requirements but in Fuertaventura. Just to be on the safe side asked the guy if the apartment was legal he assured me it was and confirmed his morgage payments are up to date and that he would show me the documents when he drives me to the complex from the airport in his private taxi, he has asked that I get him in the airport carpark as it will be quicker. He wants paid in cash as he explained it is a traditional Canarian custom and as Fonica is always banging on about embracing the local culture I agreed not wanting to offend him. What a really helpful honest guy :tiphat:

dokgolf
01-12-2011, 15:33
Thats a coincidence. We booked an apartment in Calete de Fuste for next August.

casabonny
01-12-2011, 16:04
The safeguards for our clients are that we pay on demand any money owed to owners and we own over 40 apartments on here anyway with no mortgages so it would take a while for us to be bankrupt or able to do a runner lol.
I have no axe to grind nor any interest in lettings but would assume that any agent worth thier salt ( no offence to Loaded dont know you nor your circumstances and this is not directed at you personally) would surely have a " clients account" similar to those that should be held by any Insurance agent where by the funds are not thiers but are being held on behalf of a third party.
I know many Insurance agents do not do this but those that do are doing the right thing and not for want of a better description "using others monies" that does not actually belong to them.Just my opionion on this aspect of this very intense discussion.

Loaded
01-12-2011, 16:09
Thats a good idea and one that should definitely be employed by estate agents or other businesses when the buyer and seller don't know each other and there is limited trust bit when you've work with people for as long as 25 years and always paid on request it's not really necessary.

Plus the amounts are much smaller, most owners receive between 500 and 700 a month, and they get paid every month of they request it so that's all they would stand to lose if it all went tits up fast.

And the chances of us selling 40+ apartments in a month without anyone noticing are extremely slim.

Medman
01-12-2011, 16:22
Can anyone tell me if Tenerife Royal Gardens (next to Mare Nostrum) is touristic or residential ? :thanx:

dokgolf
01-12-2011, 17:32
REsidential as far as I know. I think it used to be timeshare

Medman
01-12-2011, 17:41
REsidential as far as I know. I think it used to be timeshare

Yes, it was timeshare originally. It's just that the apartment we stayed in earlier this year has been taken off the Owners Direct website, so I was just wondering if it was anything to do with the current situation. There are other apartments in the complex still being advertised on the site. :dontknow:

Angusjim
01-12-2011, 18:22
Thats a coincidence. We booked an apartment in Calete de Fuste for next August.



Do you think when news of our defections to Fuertaventura reaches the tourist police they could have a rethink:spin::laugh:

doreen
01-12-2011, 18:57
Due to no suggestions for above I have just booked an apartment for March which meets all my requirements but in Fuertaventura. Just to be on the safe side asked the guy if the apartment was legal he assured me it was and confirmed his morgage payments are up to date and that he would show me the documents when he drives me to the complex from the airport in his private taxi, he has asked that I get him in the airport carpark as it will be quicker. He wants paid in cash as he explained it is a traditional Canarian custom and as Fonica is always banging on about embracing the local culture I agreed not wanting to offend him. What a really helpful honest guy :tiphat:

And you think there are no illegal lettings happening in the other islands ... sounds just the same as here - illegal taxi run and cash payment :(

EDIT ... and just what documents will he show you ... I don't have a copy of my apartment's registration with the Tourist Board, that's held by the Sole Agent

Loaded
01-12-2011, 20:31
Ha ha he's up to date with mortgage payments so that makes it all legal lol

Peterrayner
01-12-2011, 20:34
It might be something has been lost in the translation.

Loaded
01-12-2011, 20:52
I was up at the cabildo today and asked about the possibility of adjusting the law to incapsulate private rentals and they just shook their heads.

In other news they've stopped "aparthotels". They either become hotels or apartments from here on in.

doreen
01-12-2011, 20:56
In other news they've stopped "aparthotels". They either become hotels or apartments from here on in.

Not sure I understand that ....

Peterrayner
01-12-2011, 21:01
I was up at the cabildo today and asked about the possibility of adjusting the law to incapsulate private rentals and they just shook their heads.

In other news they've stopped "aparthotels". They either become hotels or apartments from here on in.

Is it just me or does anyone esle see the contradiction in this statement. This isnt aimed at Loaded in any way has I have heard this sort of statment from another well informed source.

They !!! cant or will not contemplate changes in relation to private apartments it would seem.

but then, almost in the same breath it seems, they announce significant changes to the hotel situation....???

TOTO 99
01-12-2011, 21:08
Due to no suggestions for above I have just booked an apartment for March which meets all my requirements but in Fuertaventura. Just to be on the safe side asked the guy if the apartment was legal he assured me it was and confirmed his morgage payments are up to date and that he would show me the documents when he drives me to the complex from the airport in his private taxi, he has asked that I get him in the airport carpark as it will be quicker. He wants paid in cash as he explained it is a traditional Canarian custom and as Fonica is always banging on about embracing the local culture I agreed not wanting to offend him. What a really helpful honest guy :tiphat:

AJ, you know as well as I do that nobody on here is daft enough to be fooled by your post......oops, where's the edit button? :laugh:

And when did Loaded turn into a radio announcer?....so, moving on to the weather....:cheeky:

Loaded
01-12-2011, 22:10
Lol in other news I'd like to clarify.

I was at the cabildo today adding some new apartments and deleting some who no longer let, while there i was talking to the guys up there and they were asking me if there was any "movimiento" (movement) due to the clamp down. I said that the forum was buzzing with chatter and I'd seen the fines in the boletin oficial. I mentioned the meeting in December and how some people were unhappy with the law etc.

On a separate note I had been wondering for a while what the technical differences were between hotels, aparthotels and apartments - the reply was that aparthotels had both apartments and "suites" with no kitchens , as such they could be a hotel or an apartment and offer both types of room. But now they are changing that so the aparthotels have to become one or the other.

Muppet
01-12-2011, 22:29
Lol in other news I'd like to clarify.

I was at the cabildo today adding some new apartments and deleting some who no longer let, while there i was talking to the guys up there and they were asking me if there was any "movimiento" (movement) due to the clamp down. I said that the forum was buzzing with chatter and I'd seen the fines in the boletin oficial. I mentioned the meeting in December and how some people were unhappy with the law etc.

On a separate note I had been wondering for a while what the technical differences were between hotels, aparthotels and apartments - the reply was that aparthotels had both apartments and "suites" with no kitchens , as such they could be a hotel or an apartment and offer both types of room. But now they are changing that so the aparthotels have to become one or the other.


Ahh !!

First positive news in this fiasco possibly??

So far the vast majority of affected people are the naughty foreigners who have bought here to let and in the majority of cases below the counter. But, if they start forcing the owners of Apart-Hotels into making decisions as to either being an hotel of a tourist apartment complex there will, for the first time perhaps, be Canarians involved and therefore Canarians forced to make expensive alterations to their buildings.

Until now they probably couldnt have cared less, maybe now they will, and become involved in pressure groups attempting to change/clarify the law.

Loaded
01-12-2011, 23:05
Errr not sure how you get to that conclusion , 2 completely separate laws, one from 1995 and another from 2010..... And only linked together by an question that had been floating round my head

Ben_f
01-12-2011, 23:23
Hello folks. My first post on here. I've been watching with more than interest though.

We have a place on another Island, but you Tenerife people seems to discuss this matter more than anyone else.

I have been thinking long and hard about what can be done. In my opinion, the Canarian Government has pushed the self-destruct button. In short, the way things are going, the popular tourist areas will become ghost towns. The islands will get an appalling reputation and 5-star tourists are going to go elsewhere. Nobody wins. Everybody including the hotel companies lose.

So, how can owners afford to keep and maintain their apartments while not accepting paying guests? How can the bars, restaurants and shops in tourist areas survive?

I have the beginning of an idea, but it's not without difficulties.

First question: Would it be legal to advertise an apartment for FREE occupancy?

AL JAY
02-12-2011, 00:08
Welcome to the forum Ben,you have hit the nail on the head about self destruction but some on here can't see it,the Tenerife of today is a lot quieter than years ago apart from the obvious Christmas/New year period
and if this crazy law is not overturned it will be the start of the end. I don't think the boom years will ever return either way but to bite the hand that feeds you is crazy,Some months are like tumbleweed central now and in the last year i have spoken to at least a hundred or so people who won't return if they can't stay where they have stayed for 25 years. I have no vested interest but feel sorry for all the businesses that will go bust,Too many people are in denial or just want to feather their own nests!

p.s Can i book this free apartment for the whole of Jan please :wink2:

mossy
02-12-2011, 00:25
So what's this talk about visitor numbers are up this year??????And i'm sure if there's a decline in tourism the government will reverse any decisions they have previously made if not the airlines will have a quite word.:twak:

Peterrayner
02-12-2011, 01:54
Lol in other news I'd like to clarify.

I was at the cabildo today adding some new apartments and deleting some who no longer let, while there i was talking to the guys up there and they were asking me if there was any "movimiento" (movement) due to the clamp down. I said that the forum was buzzing with chatter and I'd seen the fines in the boletin oficial. I mentioned the meeting in December and how some people were unhappy with the law etc.

On a separate note I had been wondering for a while what the technical differences were between hotels, aparthotels and apartments - the reply was that aparthotels had both apartments and "suites" with no kitchens , as such they could be a hotel or an apartment and offer both types of room. But now they are changing that so the aparthotels have to become one or the other.

They wre unaware of the "movment" this action has caused is causing ???

Muppet
02-12-2011, 03:36
Errr not sure how you get to that conclusion , 2 completely separate laws, one from 1995 and another from 2010..... And only linked together by an question that had been floating round my head

Not a conclusion, an observation. The reality as it currently stands is that without the support of local people any campaign for a review of the law/laws is likely to fall on deaf ears for the simple reason that you are dealing with law makers, otherwise known as politicians.

Politicians need votes, at the end of the day all they really care about is the power, status and sadly the corruption they get from being elected. Almost none of the apartment owners affected have the right to vote in elections so why would they even entertain apartment owners views, not matter how valid and sensible they may appear.

Whilst not all, but a good number of the owners of business that will be affected with fewer tourists staying in the complexes we are discussing also cannot vote in national elections. Think of the bars, restaurants and so on - a huge number of these are not Canarian owned - in fact a hell of a lot are owned and run by the same foreigners as own the apartments - particularly Brits. Yes they pay their rates, but to the local council not central Government. Yes they pay their rent, but more often than not to relatively few landlords whose parents bought up swathes of the coastline 50 years ago and passed it on to their children.

They may be enjoying some of the (now extortionate) rental income, but they made their real money from selling land to the hotels 20 years ago and are just as happy to have locals sitting empty and not pay anything.

If a campaign is to work it needs serious support from big, important local groups of businesses who will be affected and have a voice in the Canaries. Since 70 odd percent of business on these islands is touristic based, and primarily in the hands of the few hoteliers, a relaxation in the current laws, the very laws they fought hard to have introduced simply isnt going to happen... unless ...

the Government start to move the goalposts in such a fashion as to begin to affect the hoteliers - changing the Apart-Hotel laws (which needs to be confirmed in any event) would be a sign of maybe this happening, and undoubtedly driven by pure greed on the part of the Government but the beginnings of a perceived threat direted at not foreigners or foreign businesses, but to Canarian business and Canarian people, and just might be the catalist that does bring things to a head.

A harsh view on the surface perhaps, but think about it ..........


It is quite clear

Added after 3 minutes:

PS

I wish the stupid Edit facility worked !!

ignore the last line, !

Loaded
02-12-2011, 04:21
They wre unaware of the "movment" this action has caused is causing ???

I think it was them fishing peter.

Ben_f
02-12-2011, 09:40
I've just done a count of Canarian ads on OD and I see 2900 still advertising. I don't understand it. Are that many owners still unaware? Are they in denial? Have people been fined and then continue to advertise? Someone explain it to me please.

In the current situation, openly advertising must be crazy.

Incidentally, nobody has answered my earlier question yet:
Would it be legal to advertise FREE accommodation? I know it sounds crazy but it's a serious question. Thanks.

9PLUS
02-12-2011, 09:49
I've just done a count of Canarian ads on OD and I see 2900 still advertising. I don't understand it. Are that many owners still unaware? Are they in denial? Have people been fined and then continue to advertise? Someone explain it to me please.



You answer lies with those 2900 apartment/house owners


Holiday letting for free blow me away with your idea Ben

nelson
02-12-2011, 09:54
think the anaswer is no. if its touristic that is. free and touristic would be illegal. This is of course farcical, but letting free to non tourists eg, business travellors would be legal. Thats why all the family and friends stuff is not legal, if they are tourists its illegal.

9PLUS
02-12-2011, 10:18
nelson let him voice his idea as there maybe something in it

TOTO 99
02-12-2011, 10:35
Letting is letting..no matter what the price..

Angusjim
02-12-2011, 10:45
AJ, you know as well as I do that nobody on here is daft enough to be fooled by your post......oops, where's the edit button? :laugh:

And when did Loaded turn into a radio announcer?....so, moving on to the weather....:cheeky:

Toto you are correct there is no way anyone could be daft enough to be fooled by my post :cheeky::wink2:

Ben_f
02-12-2011, 11:01
hmmm, according to a dictionary (Cambridge Online):
Letting = to allow your house or land to be lived in or used by someone else in exchange for a regular payment

and to me, that means that, if no payment is involved, the activity is not letting.

What I was thinking was this:

1. At some stage, probably quite soon, the owners of the 2900 advertised on OD and 1942 on HL and 710 on homelidays etc etc are going to realise what is going on and they will certainly stop advertising and may stop letting. They are then getting zero or close to zero income and the apartments are largely empty. That's in addition to the owners who have already stopped advertising and letting.

2. The Canarian government doesn't listen to foreign property owners. But it might listen to tourists.

3. If many owners can be persuaded that it's a good idea, for political purposes, to have their properties occupied for free (only of course if it's legal) for a period of perhaps a few months:

Then we all ask our free guests to bombard the Canarian authorities and press with the simple message:
We love your island.
We love to come here for a holiday and we spend money.
But we are free spirits and we don't stay in hotels.
If hotel accommodation is the ONLY accommodation, then we have to take our holidays elsewhere.

Then things might change. It's not an easy solution. It would be very difficult to persuade enough owners that it's a good idea. And of course, it might not be a good idea anyway but at the moment I don't have any other ideas.

Muppet
02-12-2011, 11:11
Trouble is, many of the owners need the income to pay their multiple apartment mortgages, and as I said earlier the Canarians probably don't care (well their Government doesn't anyway).

Extract from local news "The Canary Islands proved the most popular holiday destination in Spain during October with 7.5 million overnight stays, up 10 per cent on the previous year......"

Presumably these figures are based on "legal" stays, so all the time "official" touristic numbers continue to rise like this any argument put forward by owners of private "below counter" illegal letters seems a bit futile.

Peterrayner
02-12-2011, 11:36
Thats why all the family and friends stuff is not legal, if they are tourists its illegal.

Solid local legal advice says thats not the case


3. What is the definition of a tourist?

Article 15 of the law defines a tourist as anyone who uses tourist establishments or goods or who receives or contracts the services offered by this type of company as a client.

Therefore, if we consider a tourist to be someone who travels for pleasure to a tourist destination and who stays in an establishment where they receive certain services (accommodation, food, excursions, etc.) for a short holiday period, we must logically exclude those people who stay in our apartment without paying either because they are family or friends.

http://www.escobedo.net/index.php/Escobedo_abogados/articles/holiday_rentals_in_the_canary_isles_questions_answ ers

BobMac
02-12-2011, 15:57
Extract from local news "The Canary Islands proved the most popular holiday destination in Spain during October with 7.5 million overnight stays, up 10 per cent on the previous year......"

Presumably these figures are based on "legal" stays, so all the time "official" touristic numbers continue to rise like this any argument put forward by owners of private "below counter" illegal letters seems a bit futile.

Is the increase the official figures matched by a similar decrease in the illegal letting numbers ??

We'll probably never know as unless you are staying in an official complex, they don't know where you are staying as you don't fill in the official tourist paperwork which they use to complete their figures.

Ben_f
02-12-2011, 23:50
hmmm, according to a dictionary (Cambridge Online):
Letting = to allow your house or land to be lived in or used by someone else in exchange for a regular payment

and to me, that means that, if no payment is involved, the activity is not letting.

What I was thinking was this:

1. At some stage, probably quite soon, the owners of the 2900 advertised on OD and 1942 on HL and 710 on homelidays etc etc are going to realise what is going on and they will certainly stop advertising and may stop letting. They are then getting zero or close to zero income and the apartments are largely empty. That's in addition to the owners who have already stopped advertising and letting.

2. The Canarian government doesn't listen to foreign property owners. But it might listen to tourists.

3. If many owners can be persuaded that it's a good idea, for political purposes, to have their properties occupied for free (only of course if it's legal) for a period of perhaps a few months:

Then we all ask our free guests to bombard the Canarian authorities and press with the simple message:
We love your island.
We love to come here for a holiday and we spend money.
But we are free spirits and we don't stay in hotels.
If hotel accommodation is the ONLY accommodation, then we have to take our holidays elsewhere.

Then things might change. It's not an easy solution. It would be very difficult to persuade enough owners that it's a good idea. And of course, it might not be a good idea anyway but at the moment I don't have any other ideas.

nelson
03-12-2011, 09:40
Its a very good thing that you are thinking Ben that we have a problem and that something must be done. I think the free letting and tourist lobbying is the wrong approach. Its going to be a problem when tourists get wind of this shambles as many will avoid the canaries, and not even trust to book at the legal accomodations. People can be fickle and can get the wrong end of the stick with something like this, I bet some people start asking if the apartments are legal all over spain and the balertics.

What I propose as part of our campaign, is an official strike of small renters throughout the canaries for a two week period August 2012. This strike should be notified to the canary government and made known to the media and of course our canarian interest groups. This is going to hurt , but sacrifices are going to be needed to sort this mad mess out.This strike should involve no letting in the strike period, no family and friends or anybody.

Further strike action should be planned after that one for spring 2013, subject to the problem not being sorted out.

The solution of course is legal small renting as per the portugese standard.

Muppet
03-12-2011, 10:15
I'm loving the concept of a strike - who will be the first to suggest you are taken out and shot?!

damn ...

Loaded
03-12-2011, 10:16
Then we all ask our free guests to bombard the Canarian authorities and press with the simple message:
We love your island.
We love to come here for a holiday and we spend money.
But we are free spirits and we don't stay in hotels.
If hotel accommodation is the ONLY accommodation, then we have to take our holidays elsewhere..

but surely they'd just say that hotels aren't the only accommodation, there are also plenty of legal apartments - I know that some are owned by big companies who kit them out basic but there are plenty of legal complexes that have privately owned apartments within their licence that are just as good and jn some cases better than the illegal equivalents .

Aside from apartments there is also rural accommodation ....

Added after 13 minutes:

Strike really???

Considering the cabildo take their figures from how much occupancy is in the legal accommodation how would they notice you had obeyed the law for a fortnight?

The bars would just think it's a slightly quieter fortnight , although I doubt they'd notice any affect.

TOTO 99
03-12-2011, 11:57
Nelson, on the understanding that nobody knows who you are, I have a question;
Having been faced with a fine, are you still letting your apartments? Obviously you didn't know it was coming so I would assume you have bookings beyond the date the bad news came? Have you had to let anyone down?

Ben_f
03-12-2011, 12:26
but surely they'd just say that hotels aren't the only accommodation, there are also plenty of legal apartments - I know that some are owned by big companies who kit them out basic but there are plenty of legal complexes that have privately owned apartments within their licence that are just as good and jn some cases better than the illegal equivalents .

Aside from apartments there is also rural accommodation ....


I used the word "hotels" in a broad sense to mean all the legal accommodation. The difference from the guests' point of view is that private accommodation is loved. Official accommodation, while it's professionally and mostly competently managed, is unloved and doesn't have either the feeling of a home or a washing machine. Some guests like private, some like official and a few aren't bothered so long as the beer is cheap. The important point is that official accommodation and private accommodation are largely separate markets with only a small overlap.

Incidentally, the reason we bought in the Canary Islands over 10 years ago was not to rent out, but was because we found it impossible to find the kind of accommodation that we wanted for our holidays at half-term time. We might have simply gone elsewhere but we decided to buy. The only thing we wouldn't do is... stay in official accommodation.

I'm not too keen on Nelson's idea of a strike partly because the hotel industry would just say "result!", partly because the only people adversely affected would be the bars, restaurants and airlines and partly because, to be effective you'd need virtually all private owners participating and we know most of them are fast asleep.

fonica
03-12-2011, 13:09
Short term rentals to tourists will never be allowed on residential complexes and short term rentals on licensed tourist complexes are already legal provided you rent through the rental company on the complex.Now what else do we need to know that hasn't already been fully explained on one of these threads? The goverment isn't going to change the ruling on any of its policies relating to apartments but is looking at villa rentals (not villas on residential complexes) because it realizes that this is an important market. It makes sense to consider exactly how to move forward with legalizing these properties to ensure safety etc. Hence the recent halt in issuing licenses. Many Spanish people rent out villas (and illegal aprtments) and the goverment are well aware of how angry owners are on this subject so maybe listen to what is said in the meeting and then get together a pressure group together with other nationalities and make some practical suggestions to the goverment/tourist board as to how they may like to proceed. My fear is this meeting will turn into an angry slanging match ( as do many community meetings ) and nothing will be gained in the long term.

nelson
03-12-2011, 13:22
the whole legal small letting campaign is based largely on the assumption that there are hundreds of thousands of so called illegal let apartments/villas throughout the canaries, and these apartments represent a vital part of the islands tourist economy. Yes the hotels might enjoy more occupancy, I have said all along that could well happen, its just it seems to me far more overall visitors would be lost overall, and net result good for a few hotels, very bad for the rest of the islands economy.

If only 25% of small renters stand up and support the strike this would have in my opinion a large impact on the airlines,restuarants ,taxis, shops and everything on the islands. If I am wrong and a strike of that magnitude produced little impact, then fair enough.

It would be of course interesting to see how things did pan out with all the debate , will apartment renters chose to go to hotels/legal apartments or not ? or just book somewhere else.

The canary government may well drag the battle out in a very obstinate manner. They face quite a u turn on this if they see sense. Legal challenge is just starting and ultimatley the euro courts will have to rule on all this. It remains important that the campaign is active and growing at the same time as the legal challenge plods on. The sleepers will wake up at some point and this is very early days.

Muppet
03-12-2011, 13:57
What is it about the fact that the law has already been challenged, and the challenge failed that you cannot understand??

It has been done, it failed, the Canarian Government has seen sense, in the sense that what you and others have been and continue to do has been illegal for 16 years and you have been fined because of that??

Added after 7 minutes:

as a PS

As fonica kinda said above - Residential accomodation is designed for people to live in. The very people who have to get up at silly o'clock in the morning to work for you when you are on your jollies. The men and women who bought their apartments to live in do not want holiday makers disturbing their already busy enough lives. That's why there are no tourist facilities on residential complexes, (or shouldnt be!).

Tourist complexes are for tourists to be loud in, play water-polo, get drunk, eat pizza and wheel their suitcases around on arrival at 4am.

That is why the Government passed the law and now they are skint (see elsewhere) they want your money for breaking their laws.

nelson
03-12-2011, 14:06
the challenge can not have been to the point. If people all over europe are free to rent out their private apartments ,villas,gillets,cottages,flats ,caravans, to tourists , without unity of exploitation , then there is no reason why this should be illegal in parts of spain.

I think that this part of the situation is like the fairy tale the emporers new clothes, all the pro law people can not grasp that unity of explotation is just totally out of step with the rest of the private letting industry europe wide. search the internet ads in ireland,france,uk,italy. Its no great shakes to do this renting. Why should it be?

Peterrayner
03-12-2011, 14:06
What is it about the fact that the law has already been challenged, and the challenge failed that you cannot understand??

It has been done, it failed, the Canarian Government has seen sense, in the sense that what you and others have been and continue to do has been illegal for 16 years and you have been fined because of that??

Thats about it really. I guess my only comment is the level of the fines seems to be totally disproportionate to the crime.

Loaded
03-12-2011, 14:09
Good post from Ben.

I honesty get a massive sense of de ja vu with all this it's starting to feel like 1995 again

Muppet
03-12-2011, 14:09
the challenge can not have been to the point. If people all over europe are free to rent out their private apartments ,villas,gillets,cottages,flats ,caravans, to tourists , without unity of exploitation , then there is no reason why this should be illegal in parts of spain.

I think that this part of the situation is like the fairy tale the emporers new clothes, all the pro law people can not grasp that unity of explotation is just totally out of step with the rest of the private letting industry europe wide. search the internet ads in ireland,france,uk,italy. Its no great shakes to do this renting. Why should it be?

Because these are the Canary Islands, and the Canary Islands have their own Government, elected by their own people and make their own rules??

Peterrayner
03-12-2011, 14:40
the challenge can not have been to the point. If people all over europe are free to rent out their private apartments ,villas,gillets,cottages,flats ,caravans, to tourists , without unity of exploitation , then there is no reason why this should be illegal in parts of spain.

I think that this part of the situation is like the fairy tale the emporers new clothes, all the pro law people can not grasp that unity of explotation is just totally out of step with the rest of the private letting industry europe wide. search the internet ads in ireland,france,uk,italy. Its no great shakes to do this renting. Why should it be?

The 2005 challenge was based on the unity of explotation being contrary to EU laws.

However the court accepted that the Canaries were an exception based on their unique position both georaphically and economically and their right to l onegislate this matter as an autonomous community (outside the european area influence) was upheld.

I cant see that anything as changed that would support a new challenge. :(

Added after 1 14 minutes:

The 2005 challenge was based on the unity of explotation being contrary to EU laws.

However the court accepted that the Canaries were an exception based on their unique position both georaphically and economically and their right to legislate on this matter as an autonomous community (outside the european area influence) was upheld.

I cant see that anything as changed that would support a new challenge. :(

Ben_f
03-12-2011, 16:34
Because these are the Canary Islands, and the Canary Islands have their own Government, elected by their own people and make their own rules??

er hello?

There may be all kind of rules made up by the local government politicians but protectionism is still illegal in the EU.

Just because politicians are elected by the people it doesn't follow that they work on behalf of the people. They are lobbied by vested interests and take decisions that have unintended consequences that the people are rarely aware of.

In the whole history of trade and commerce it's hard to find any examples of protectionism actually helping the interests that it is supposed to protect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is always counter-productive. In this case, the law prevents private owners from declaring their income for tax purposes and has resulted in a massive loss of revenue for the authorities. It has largely kept the independent travellers out of the Canary islands resulting in a stagnant tourism sector over many years. I could go on and on. In fact, I think I will.

It has resulted in the Canary Islands having some of the lowest-grade tourist accommodation in Europe - hotel companies that don't face competition don't improve their standards (example 2* and 3* accommodation in Canaries has no need for a fan or aircon. In Greece - cooler than Canaries for most of the year - all grades have fans minimum).

Then what does the future hold? If property owners can't afford to maintain their accommodation the complexes become ghost towns. Already we have apartments changing hands for under 40K Euros. It may go down to 10K. Then who will live in them? They will be among the cheapest accommodation in Europe and will be a refuge for Europe's poor and outcasts. The 5-star hotels will find themselves surrounded by shanty towns and derelict buildings.

So the 1995 law is wrong on many counts. I do agree that the politicians are unwilling to listen - because they are still having their ears bent by the vested interests. But I'm amazed by some of the opposing points of view expressed here. It is a highly restrictive law that is bad for everybody. It stands in the way of enterprise. It prevents true competition.

It has nothing to do with Canary Islands being a special case. It isn't a special case. North Wales is equally special but the Welsh economy thrives on free enterprise as do all the other tourist economies in Europe.

It has nothing to do with residential versus tourist complexes. They are both just buildings with people in. Trying to regulate which people are allowed in and which are not is wrong. Regulating their behaviour while they are in is a different matter.

Observing the owners getting fined, stopping their activities and selling up is like watching a slow car crash of the Canaries' economy. It's very hard to see what can be done to stop it. The only thing that I can suggest is to publicly demonstrate the power of private owners to bring visitors to the islands.

delderek
03-12-2011, 16:41
er hello?

There may be all kind of rules made up by the local government politicians but protectionism is still illegal in the EU.

Just because politicians are elected by the people it doesn't follow that they work on behalf of the people. They are lobbied by vested interests and take decisions that have unintended consequences that the people are rarely aware of.

In the whole history of trade and commerce it's hard to find any examples of protectionism actually helping the interests that it is supposed to protect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is always counter-productive. In this case, the law prevents private owners from declaring their income for tax purposes and has resulted in a massive loss of revenue for the authorities. It has largely kept the independent travellers out of the Canary islands resulting in a stagnant tourism sector over many years. I could go on and on. In fact, I think I will.

It has resulted in the Canary Islands having some of the lowest-grade tourist accommodation in Europe - hotel companies that don't face competition don't improve their standards (example 2* and 3* accommodation in Canaries has no need for a fan or aircon. In Greece - cooler than Canaries for most of the year - all grades have fans minimum).

Then what does the future hold? If property owners can't afford to maintain their accommodation the complexes become ghost towns. Already we have apartments changing hands for under 40K Euros. It may go down to 10K. Then who will live in them? They will be among the cheapest accommodation in Europe and will be a refuge for Europe's poor and outcasts. The 5-star hotels will find themselves surrounded by shanty towns and derelict buildings.

So the 1995 law is wrong on many counts. I do agree that the politicians are unwilling to listen - because they are still having their ears bent by the vested interests. But I'm amazed by some of the opposing points of view expressed here. It is a highly restrictive law that is bad for everybody. It stands in the way of enterprise. It prevents true competition.

It has nothing to do with Canary Islands being a special case. It isn't a special case. North Wales is equally special but the Welsh economy thrives on free enterprise as do all the other tourist economies in Europe.

It has nothing to do with residential versus tourist complexes. They are both just buildings with people in. Trying to regulate which people are allowed in and which are not is wrong. Regulating their behaviour while they are in is a different matter.

Observing the owners getting fined, stopping their activities and selling up is like watching a slow car crash of the Canaries' economy. It's very hard to see what can be done to stop it. The only thing that I can suggest is to publicly demonstrate the power of private owners to bring visitors to the islands.


There are similar restrictions in many areas of the UK. It is mentioned in other posts, but, you could spend days searching for it.

Peterrayner
03-12-2011, 16:46
It has nothing to do with Canary Islands being a special case. It isn't a special case.

but the EU court has ruled it is so who are you going to appeal to against this law ???

Loaded
03-12-2011, 17:05
Something I've found is that despite there being many complexes who could survive the law - I mean; reach 50%+1 there are people within these complexes who are determined for the required amounts to not be met. Sometimes these people are presidents or vice presidents who prevent and influence owners from getting a sole agent to achieve 50%+1.

Sur y sol is a good example and if I'm not wrong, where Nelson has his apartments?

If I were Nelson I'd try and look to the possibility of finding sufficient owners in that complex to sign up to one agent and regain the tourist licence . That would be hard work but it will be easier and cheaper than going through European courts

delderek
03-12-2011, 17:17
Something I've found is that despite there being many complexes who could survive the law - I mean; reach 50%+1 there are people within these complexes who are determined for the required amounts to not be met. Sometimes these people are presidents or vice presidents who prevent and influence owners from getting a sole agent to achieve 50%+1.

Sur y sol is a good example and if I'm not wrong, where Nelson has his apartments?

If I were Nelson I'd try and look to the possibility of finding sufficient owners in that complex to sign up to one agent and regain the tourist licence . That would be hard work but it will be easier and cheaper than going through European courts

According to JA on another forum, it may appear the fines on that complex are for "not letting through the agent" as Sur e Sol is still listed on the Arona listings. http://www.todotenerife.es/t_resultados.php?Zona=&MunicipioID=38006&ClaseAlojamiento=E&CategoriaID=&lang=2&s=5&sectionID=84&page=1

Peterrayner
03-12-2011, 17:32
According to JA on another forum, it may appear the fines on that complex are for "not letting through the agent" as Sur e Sol is still listed on the Arona listings. http://www.todotenerife.es/t_resultados.php?Zona=&MunicipioID=38006&ClaseAlojamiento=E&CategoriaID=&lang=2&s=5§ionID=84&page=1

It also answers a question thats been dogging me as the Sur Y Sol inspections were well over a year ago September - October 2010 according to the Boletins but that is about when they where inspecting touristic sites which they semed to concentrate on as the first part of this exercise.

welshman
03-12-2011, 17:38
I don.t go along with striking if you are still advocating that you continue to rent illegaly you are a fool to yourself. You need to stop renting immediatly and let the effect take place it is only then when business go bust and the effect is felt will things happen. If it goes as the government say,s, they can absorbe the increase then nothing will happen only flood of sales when people cannot support their mortgage. But until an effect is felt nothing will happen. You need a complete shut off of letting from now. Contact all owners through the nett they either stop our get fined. You need to be able to fund apartment for 6 /12 months to see what affect you have.:pray:

delderek
03-12-2011, 17:39
It also answers a question thats been dogging me as the Sur Y Sol inspections were well over a year ago September - October 2010 according to the Boletins but that is about when they where inspecting touristic sites which they semed to concentrate on as the first part of this exercise.

It is also slightly strange that, for instance looking at Comodoro, appears to be three names listed as agents?

Loaded
03-12-2011, 17:52
Comodorro is an old place so perfectly possible that three licences still are on the books, when we achieved 50%+1 on paloma beach there were still registrations on the cabildos computer for previous licence holders who had since de-registered or gone completely.

It could be that one of the 3 on comodorro is still operating under the radar or has achieved 50%+1

Muppet
03-12-2011, 18:50
er hello?

There may be all kind of rules made up by the local government politicians but protectionism is still illegal in the EU.

Just because politicians are elected by the people it doesn't follow that they work on behalf of the people. They are lobbied by vested interests and take decisions that have unintended consequences that the people are rarely aware of.

In the whole history of trade and commerce it's hard to find any examples of protectionism actually helping the interests that it is supposed to protect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is always counter-productive. In this case, the law prevents private owners from declaring their income for tax purposes and has resulted in a massive loss of revenue for the authorities. It has largely kept the independent travellers out of the Canary islands resulting in a stagnant tourism sector over many years. I could go on and on. In fact, I think I will.

It has resulted in the Canary Islands having some of the lowest-grade tourist accommodation in Europe - hotel companies that don't face competition don't improve their standards (example 2* and 3* accommodation in Canaries has no need for a fan or aircon. In Greece - cooler than Canaries for most of the year - all grades have fans minimum).

Then what does the future hold? If property owners can't afford to maintain their accommodation the complexes become ghost towns. Already we have apartments changing hands for under 40K Euros. It may go down to 10K. Then who will live in them? They will be among the cheapest accommodation in Europe and will be a refuge for Europe's poor and outcasts. The 5-star hotels will find themselves surrounded by shanty towns and derelict buildings.

So the 1995 law is wrong on many counts. I do agree that the politicians are unwilling to listen - because they are still having their ears bent by the vested interests. But I'm amazed by some of the opposing points of view expressed here. It is a highly restrictive law that is bad for everybody. It stands in the way of enterprise. It prevents true competition.

It has nothing to do with Canary Islands being a special case. It isn't a special case. North Wales is equally special but the Welsh economy thrives on free enterprise as do all the other tourist economies in Europe.

It has nothing to do with residential versus tourist complexes. They are both just buildings with people in. Trying to regulate which people are allowed in and which are not is wrong. Regulating their behaviour while they are in is a different matter.

Observing the owners getting fined, stopping their activities and selling up is like watching a slow car crash of the Canaries' economy. It's very hard to see what can be done to stop it. The only thing that I can suggest is to publicly demonstrate the power of private owners to bring visitors to the islands.

See the post above yours - specifically the following part

"....However the court accepted that the Canaries were an exception based on their unique position both georaphically and economically and their right to legislate on this matter as an autonomous community (outside the european area influence) was upheld"

It HAS been challenged and decided that the Cansry Islands ARE a special case and therefore have the RIGHT to impliment this law, therefore the Law Stands.

Is everybody hard of understanding??

Added after 13 minutes:


I don.t go along with striking if you are still advocating that you continue to rent illegaly you are a fool to yourself. You need to stop renting immediatly and let the effect take place it is only then when business go bust and the effect is felt will things happen. If it goes as the government say,s, they can absorbe the increase then nothing will happen only flood of sales when people cannot support their mortgage. But until an effect is felt nothing will happen. You need a complete shut off of letting from now. Contact all owners through the nett they either stop our get fined. You need to be able to fund apartment for 6 /12 months to see what affect you have.:pray:

Trouble is though that many apartment owners cannot afford to just stop letting, even for a short period let alone 6 months, because they need the income to pay their mortgages and on top of that still have the fine money to find.

Given the recent financial crisis they cannot even consider re-negotiate with their lenders to reduce payments or extend the term.

And some say the Canarian Government don't know what they are doing

Ben_f
03-12-2011, 19:20
Yes, I know that the 1995 law has been allowed by the EU Commissioners to stand on the basis of pleading a "special case". The point I make is that "special case" argument is spurious and the result is harming the islands' economy. I know also that it's too late to argue about that as the challenge has been heard and dismissed.

For the thousands of owners, many of whom cannot afford to stop letting, there aren't many options.
One is to demonstrate the power of private owners to bring visitors in. It would be incredibly difficult to do that as it would need an orchestrated campaign with the owners having a coherent message (and we seem to be a long way from coherent). The only other one is to ask the EU to look again at the 1995 law in the light of the enforcement and size of the fines.

I don't know how far the appeals have progressed for those who have been fined and have appealed. I'm sure someone can fill me in on that one.

Muppet
03-12-2011, 19:46
Trouble is Ben, think of the costs of engaging a legal team capable of taking this argument up at Eropean Court level - even if you were lucky enough to convince them to hear the case in the first event. Ouch! Proving any beneficial impact that private letting has made on tourism would require untold and expensive research going back over 15 odd years. The only official records are based on legal lettings and are now rising significantly and have been for over a year.

I don't think anybody would buy a sympathy argument either. Whose fault is it that private owners cannot afford to stop letting? That'll be the private owners who have, for 16 years odd been knowingly breaking the law then.

.

Ben_f
03-12-2011, 20:11
It is "Ouch" indeed.

To clarify, I don't think that any case can be made by proving a beneficial impact of (previous) private letting. It's not possible to prove. What can be done (though, as I said, it's very very difficult) is to get a high proportion of owners to get their guests to blitz the media and the government with the message that:
they wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the homeliness of private accommodation

Maybe I'm wrong and private owners really are taking trade away from the hotels but in my experience that's not the case at all. The guests who choose private accommodation always choose private accommodation whether they go to the Canaries or to Switzerland. If I'm wrong on that, then private letting is indeed wrong and should be stamped out. If I'm right, it could potentially be demonstrated but it would take a lot of owners to agree on a strategy and even finding those owners is difficult enough, never mind getting them to agree to anything.

Frankly, I think that trying to take the case back to Europe would probably be a waste of time and money as the only think that has changed since it was challenged is that the law is being enforced and the fines are massive.

Have any appeals on fines yet been concluded?

doreen
03-12-2011, 20:32
No Ben, regarding fines ... looks like it will be a long drawn out process.

I see a few problems with your suggestion for guests to "blitz the media" ... there are already many people staying on Touristic complexes in Private apartments (some good, some bad) - often booked via Holiday Lettings et al, but Cleaning & Managment handled by the sole agent. Often they have no idea whether they are in a Legal or Illegal let, and probably do not care either.

Loaded
03-12-2011, 20:37
I think doreens hit the nail on the head.

On here we et to hear about the poor owner who has been letting and now can't , we also get to hear from the visitor who won't stay anywhere unless it's illegal.....

But in the cold light of day the visitor isn't that bothered and doesn't really know or care what the legalities are so long as they get what they've paid for

nelson
03-12-2011, 20:37
still feel like the boy saying the king has no clothes on when people say this incredibly protectionist law can not be challenged now and beaten.

I simply can not see why an individual who buys an apartment in the canaries in a complex, can not be allowed to just rent it out himself ? why the canary government should demand that this can not happen, but insist that only letting might be allowed, through referal to a single letting agent with 51% of private apartment owners joining the agent, is completely and utterly beyond me.

This arrangement is not required anywhere else europe. Ben dont panic, many more people will be joining this campaign, we will all have to spend together to get the legal representation we need. Perhaps soon an owner with legal knowledge will be fined and will come on board with us.

welshman
03-12-2011, 21:25
Why don,t everyone contact your own MEP they represent you / UK in europe let them know whats going on.
Try Nigel Farge he loves europe and their laws. ? You got to pull all the stops out.