Is Scottish football in permanent decline?

[nurse ratchet]

Oh dear oh dear, how poor is Scottish football just now, and just how bad is it going to get? Apart from Spurs, who are a class act, the Old Firm should be hammering these teams, but Scottish teams are so poor just now, they get totally exposed outside of their own league, where will it all end, and how low can the game in Scotland go?
Hearts drew 0-0 with Tottenham but lost 5-0 on aggregate, Celtic suffered a 3-1 defeat away to Swiss Cup winners Sion after a goalless first leg in Glasgow, while Rangers drew 1-1 at Ibrox to lose 3-2 on aggregate to Slovenian champions Maribor. Dundee United had earlier been knocked out of the Europa League after losing out on away goals to Polish side Slask Warclaw.
That means there are no Scottish clubs in Europe beyond August for the first time since the inception of European club competition in 1956.

As an Englsih girl I'm not really bothered but it must be depressing to be a Scottish football fan at the moment.

[Happy Days]

Is Scottish football in permanent decline?

Yes, I'm Scottish, and it's just hard to watch. Not just the domestic league, but the National side too.
I was in Aberdeen last winter and watched my nephew play in the school league in Stonehaven... It's no supprise we are crap, they were having to play in -10º.

Think football is maybe best suited to the warmer climate countries, or maybe to produce better quality profeshionals, the cream should be packed off to Spain at a young age as Andy Murray was...

[BobMac]

Is Scottish football in permanent decline?

Yes, I'm Scottish, and it's just hard to watch. Not just the domestic league, but the National side too.
I was in Aberdeen last winter and watched my nephew play in the school league in Stonehaven... It's no supprise we are crap, they were having to play in -10º.

Think football is maybe best suited to the warmer climate countries, or maybe to produce better quality profeshionals, the cream should be packed off to Spain at a young age as Andy Murray was...

I'm Scottish as well and part of the problem is that all the clubs are bringing in foreign players
( at the expense of local talent ) who are only interested in the money and have no real passion for the game.

In fact a lot of these so-called foreign superstars are only here because they are past their best-by-date in their own countries and they see Scottish football as a soft touch to build up their bank balance before they retire.

As I say their is no longer the passion for the game as they get the money regardless of the results and performance.

[dokgolf]

A Scottish friend of mine blames Maggie Thatcher for the general decline in Scottish sports. He claims that under her, there were swingeing cuts to education and sports and thereby had a knock on effect that is still felt today. The answer to "Is Scottish football in permanent decline?" is "Yes". I would imagine that massive investment in under-age football is required and that money is simply not available at the moment. Also, having such a lopsided league with only 2 teams capable of winning doesn't exactly ignite the senses. I wonder would a draft pick similar to the NFL work to help balance out things?

[CaribeCelt]

A Scottish friend of mine blames Maggie Thatcher for the general decline in Scottish sports. He claims that under her, there were swingeing cuts to education and sports and thereby had a knock on effect that is still felt today. The answer to "Is Scottish football in permanent decline?" is "Yes". I would imagine that massive investment in under-age football is required and that money is simply not available at the moment. Also, having such a lopsided league with only 2 teams capable of winning doesn't exactly ignite the senses. I wonder would a draft pick similar to the NFL work to help balance out things?

Another advocate of that theory is Sam Alldardyce.
I watched a programme about Barca and their youth setup and the Europeans are light years ahead of us.
In Britain youth coaches place to much emphasis on scoring goals and getting stuck in while the Europeans teach the kids to hold the ball and not to worry about scoring because that will come eventually..a whole different mindset is needed in Scotland.
Celtic have pumped millions into their youth setup and very little talent has emerged to be honest...so something is wrong somewhere.
I think the SFA have brought in a new Dutch coach to oversee the whole of the scottish setup and lets hope he has the Cryuff philosphy because in my opinion that is whats needed.

[BobMac]

A Scottish friend of mine blames Maggie Thatcher for the general decline in Scottish sports. He claims that under her, there were swingeing cuts to education and sports and thereby had a knock on effect that is still felt today. The answer to "Is Scottish football in permanent decline?" is "Yes". I would imagine that massive investment in under-age football is required and that money is simply not available at the moment. Also, having such a lopsided league with only 2 teams capable of winning doesn't exactly ignite the senses. I wonder would a draft pick similar to the NFL work to help balance out things?

That's only part of the problem.

There are too many egomaniacs running clubs now; look at Hearts - 13 managers in 6 seasons !! If they aren't successful right away, managers know they will be axed. That doesn't make for a settled environment in the dressing rooms.

The absolutely farcical basic wages which are on offer now are another cause of the problem - players know that their basic wage is safe regardless of results or performance. If they have been bought on the instructions of the chairman, they know the manager can't do anything about it if they don't perform to expectations. A lot of players now are sitting back doing the bare minimum amount of work and getting paid for it regardless.

Most Scottish clubs, with a few exceptions, don't attract enough paying punters through the turnstiles to finance their costs and are totally reliant on their off-field activities to keep them solvent.

Bringing back a cap on the wages would be a step in the right direction - a low basic wage topped up by high bonuses for results would introduce an incentive to go out and perform to the best of their ability every week.

[CaribeCelt]

Is Scottish football in permanent decline?

Yes, I'm Scottish, and it's just hard to watch. Not just the domestic league, but the National side too.
I was in Aberdeen last winter and watched my nephew play in the school league in Stonehaven... It's no supprise we are crap, they were having to play in -10º.

Think football is maybe best suited to the warmer climate countries, or maybe to produce better quality profeshionals, the cream should be packed off to Spain at a young age as Andy Murray was...

Another good point.
Massive investment is needed to ensure the youth development has proper facilaties.
Here in Ireland i know of young lads playing up to their necks in mud and when the game is finished there is no showers at the pitch,so they have to go home and take a shower.
I am sure quite a few places in Scotland are like that as well.

[Happy Days]

I'm from the era when Aberdeen had a cracking run...any one remember the early 80's?

During that time Aberdeen were the only full time professional team in the highlands /North of Scotland. Because of that there was a large desire to play for the local BIG team. I played for my school team, for the team in my neighbourhood and then for my local team (Elgin City) youth team. In spring talent scouts from Aberdeen came to watch. We had good facilities, but it was still bloody freezing and I remember having to play when the pitch was frozen...you weren’t so committed in your tackles and heading the ball would sting for ten minutes if it caught your ear.
But still, we all wanted to get picked up by Aberdeen. My point was that Scotland became a two horse race when Inverness Calley and Thistle joined, then 2 other from the Highland league became second division. Aberdeen lost the feeder clubs, and all the kids from near Inverness and above want to play for Calley.

The OP wanted to know how we fell from grace... The last times of quality club football had Rangers lining up Laudrup, Gasgone, Mols (and Barry Ferguson) and Celtic with Larson and Di Canio. This wasn't home grown, this was spending the last in the coffers. Scottish football has been in un-avoidable decline since Aberdeen team of 1984.

My nephew doesn't want to play for Aberdeen when he grows up... he wants to play for Manchester United. And to my shame (though more to his fathers) he wants to be just like Winker!!

[dokgolf]

I'm from the era when Aberdeen had a cracking run...any one remember the early 80's?

During that time Aberdeen were the only full time professional team in the highlands /North of Scotland. Because of that there was a large desire to play for the local BIG team. I played for my school team, for the team in my neighbourhood and then for my local team (Elgin City) youth team. In spring talent scouts from Aberdeen came to watch. We had good facilities, but it was still bloody freezing and I remember having to play when the pitch was frozen...you weren’t so committed in your tackles and heading the ball would sting for ten minutes if it caught your ear.
But still, we all wanted to get picked up by Aberdeen. My point was that Scotland became a two horse race when Inverness Calley and Thistle joined, then 2 other from the Highland league became second division. Aberdeen lost the feeder clubs, and all the kids from near Inverness and above want to play for Calley.

The OP wanted to know how we fell from grace... The last times of quality club football had Rangers lining up Laudrup, Gasgone, Mols (and Barry Ferguson) and Celtic with Larson and Di Canio. This wasn't home grown, this was spending the last in the coffers. Scottish football has been in un-avoidable decline since Aberdeen team of 1984.

My nephew doesn't want to play for Aberdeen when he grows up... he wants to play for Manchester United. And to my shame (though more to his fathers) he wants to be just like Winker!!

Glad to see he has ambition! Also, a hearty "thank you" to Aberdeen club and supporters for their manager 25 years ago!;)

[BobMac]

Before any of you Non-Scottish people start gloating, just remember how Scottish football finds itself in this position at club level and international level.

When Scotland's top clubs started buying big name foreign players, there was nowhere for the young home grown players to get top flight experience unless they moved out of Scotland, which was fine until English clubs starting doing the same.

Filling your team with foreign players will eventually have a disastrous effect on your teams at club and international level. Why do you think most other countries have strict limits on the number of foreign any of their clubs are allowed to use ?

[bonitatime]

That's only part of the problem.

There are too many egomaniacs running clubs now; look at Hearts - 13 managers in 6 seasons !! If they aren't successful right away, managers know they will be axed. That doesn't make for a settled environment in the dressing rooms.

The absolutely farcical basic wages which are on offer now are another cause of the problem - players know that their basic wage is safe regardless of results or performance. If they have been bought on the instructions of the chairman, they know the manager can't do anything about it if they don't perform to expectations. A lot of players now are sitting back doing the bare minimum amount of work and getting paid for it regardless.

Most Scottish clubs, with a few exceptions, don't attract enough paying punters through the turnstiles to finance their costs and are totally reliant on their off-field activities to keep them solvent.

Bringing back a cap on the wages would be a step in the right direction - a low basic wage topped up by high bonuses for results would introduce an incentive to go out and perform to the best of their ability every week.

How much are these basic wages. I was talking to somone today who was telling me how much the lower league players were paid and I nearly fell over in comparison to what the 3rd (2b) league are paid here.
If foreign players will play for less this means your home players are over pricing themselves.
I think except at the very top Spainish football is going to pay players considerably less over the next few years.

The playing of home players has to come from incentives unless Scotland leaves the EU as freedom of labour is a basic rule.
In Austria the clubs are paid extra money depending on the number of home grown players they play. Red Bull Salzburg don't care as they have loads of cash but it encourages all the other teams to play local lads.

[timmylish]

Surprised no-one has blamed my suggested culprit? SKYSPORTS and the billions pumped into the English Leagues since the inception of the EPL. Just cannot compete.