View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Nelson, you really need to ease off a bit.
It doesn't matter if these women were retired pyromaniacs, they were not there via Loaded so why should he have to consider anything about them? Why do you not see that they were absolutely nothing to do with him.
I whole heartedly agree with you that not every complex requires it at the same level but unfortunately the law doesn't agree. I'm not saying you shouldn't campaign against it but you are wasting your time repeating it on here. We know how you feel.
Worst of all, the point of this last few posts was only about people doing their own letting in a place where they shouldn't. You can't twist that to mean anything other than illegal competition.
From memory, you are in the transport business? If so, would you let your nearest competitor take his broken down vehicle to be fixed and then send you the bill because he doesn't fancy paying for it himself? That's what the story amounts to. It's business. No hidden agenda.
This non stop agent bashing isn't getting anyone anywhere. I can see your point, I really can and I agree with some of it. I don't need to read it in every other post though!
And another thing...you've got me writing long ranting posts now....:lol:
ha ha , sorry about your ranting. Agreed I am labouring a very minor point, but dont blame me , blame loaded for using this example in the first place.
I dont think that he is complaining about the private renter being illegal competition though, he seems to be saying he had to sort the problem out for them, and that this shows that we do need sole agents, thay provide something that is essential in self catering holiday letting.
Ahhhh the fire aspect, I thought it may be that -
The owner of that apartment refused to have a smoke detector fitted in his apartment and actually took the community to court to not have to install it.
Ahhhh the fire aspect, I thought it may be that -
The owner of that apartment refused to have a smoke detector fitted in his apartment and actually took the community to court to not have to install it.
sounds like he is as contrary as his customers.
sounds like he is as contrary as his customers.
.... and PRECISELY why there needs to be some control over what happens ..
Nelson - there is some sympathy here for those who have been caught up in the current letting fiasco - especially toward those who have been caught up in it as the result of mis-information from estate agents. In your case though, where you have openly admitted to knowingly breaking the laws of this country, not once but twice, there is little sympathy.
I should quit whilst you are ahead, carry on appealing your fines and come back when you have something useful to report from your court appearence(s).
It is within the President´s remit to have people removed from the complex if they do not comply with community rules , especially on safety issues .
This is new for me. Can you tell me where exactly this is mentioned in the law? It is of course nonsense; the only thing the president or any other owner can do at that moment is to call the police. Next to that, in article 7.2 is mentioned “The proprietor and the occupant are not allowed to develop in their unit, nor in the rest of the building, activities that are prohibited by the statutes, harmful for the building or infringe the general conditions concerning inconvenient, unhealthy, noxious, dangerous or illegal activities”.
The consequences, according to the same article: “If the judgement were in favour of the plaintiff, the court could decide, besides the definitive ceasing of the forbidden activity and the compensation for the damages and up-coming expenses, the denial of the right to use the unit for a period of maximum three years, depending upon the seriousness of the offence and the damages caused to the community”.
Where on earth have you got that fact from? Every complex has a President who can take action and most have a night security guard…………. Listen to Jungle Jim - he is stating a fact, not an assumption
If this is the job description of a president we will have no volunteers anymore and only president elected by means of rotation or by drawing lots. That would be great; uninterested presidents living abroad.
The security guard in the complexes you are talking about is in fact an access controller with complete different competences.
usually long term renters who cause the most trouble but that fact is simply overlooked because it doesn't suit your arguments. Sole agents dont care who goes in your apartment as long as its a booking - private owners are far more selective, usually, in 99% of cases.
Your statement doesn´t sound very logic to me; the long term renters are causing the problems (who are by definition not forming part of a sole agent), but directly thereafter you state that private owners are far more selective.
usually, in 99% of cases. Is this a verifiable fact or just a phrase to try to make your statement “stronger”?
junglejim
06-10-2012, 11:16
Rene , read what I said the word I used was remit- he has the legal responsibility to take the necessary actions whatever that might be, court, police if people are being antisocial or dangerous. Like a hotel that can expel you for antisocial behaviour ,an owner can ask you to leave for breaking the community regulations or unsafe behaviour not in accordance with terms of rental.
We have done this on several occasions for persistent noise,threatening behaviour , setting fire to apartment with chip pan (which are banned on our complex) with the agreement of the owner.
We have banned people from the complex for violence and threatening behaviour even when their family are staying in complex .
Our night "security" staff phone the police if there is a threat to safety or security and issue a written report for the President to take the appropriate action - in some cases that may involve the courts , but we have never had to go that far .
Thanks for the correction.
Of course you can ask them to leave, but if they do not leave the owners / president cannot do anything. Nobody can force them, except the police or in a later state the court.
junglejim
06-10-2012, 11:44
I agree Rene , but you haven´t seen our President in action! At least he is committed to the Complex and it´s quality!
cainaries
08-10-2012, 22:14
There is an article in Spanish in one of the local papers on La Palma which I have google-translated as follows:-
The Canary Islands government has given approval to 90% of the allegations made by the City Council, to amend the Law on Tourism ordinicacion, allowing the legaliacion of most of the places alojativa 3.000 so far in La Palma alegal have considered in the legal field. Changes effective supply would begin in January 2013, leaving behind the uncertainty of two years now has been suffering this `unique` accommodation offer, made up of small rural houses, which took off in the decade of the 80s hand connection with touroperados from Europe, but that was never incorporated 'with all of the law' to the legislative framework. Now Tienan owners the opportunity to legalize their rural facilities and comply with current legislation. This group of '3, 000 alegal 'sometimes supplement the family income, constitutes 20% of the hospitality structure in La Palma, amounting to about 11,000 seats, of which 4,000 correspond to conventional hotel accommodations.
End of article
From D'Ocasion of 5th October 2012.
Just thought hughsyb and nelson might be interested.
Can we have a link ? Might make more sense in Spanish .
cainaries
08-10-2012, 22:47
Can we have a link ? Might make more sense in Spanish .
I did my best! Typed it in word by word.
http://www.d-ocasion.net/18_12_es.pdf
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/2012/09/26/actualidad/ley-del-turismo-legitimara-3-000-camas-alegales-palma/
Here it is, sounds like villas to me.....
There's also an interesting link for apartment owners too ill post in a mo, but it still sounds like they'll need unity if exploitation
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/2012/09/26/actualidad/ley-del-turismo-legitimara-3-000-camas-alegales-palma/
Here it is, sounds like villas to me.....
There's also an interesting link for apartment owners too ill post in a mo, but it still sounds like they'll need unity if exploitation
http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/espana/noticias/4266493/09/12/canarias-concedera-autorizacion-previa-de-plazas-de-alojamiento-turistico-para-hoteles-de-cinco-estrellas.html
cainaries
08-10-2012, 23:03
http://www.diariodeavisos.com/2012/09/26/actualidad/ley-del-turismo-legitimara-3-000-camas-alegales-palma/
Here it is, sounds like villas to me.....
There's also an interesting link for apartment owners too ill post in a mo, but it still sounds like they'll need unity if exploitation
http://ecodiario.eleconomista.es/espana/noticias/4266493/09/12/canarias-concedera-autorizacion-previa-de-plazas-de-alojamiento-turistico-para-hoteles-de-cinco-estrellas.html
Thanks for the link which I'll check out in the morning. I don't think these are villas, I think they are casas rurales, small typical stone cottages in the countryside, that kind of thing. Not modern buildings on estates.
Hope you feel better soon!
thats interesting, looks like these independant rural properties are going to be legal. Clearly on la palma with less strength in the hotels these stand alone properties have managed to state their case and are ending up legal. It reads as if these are spanish owners , so looks like they have ended up wining their battle.
Of course there can be no unity of exploitation if these are stand alone rural properties scattered about the islands rural landscape. But why should someone with one apartment in a complex not be allowed to exploit independantly as well? Hopefully this type of double standard might help in future legal challenges. Any movement like this , however small , is a step in the right direction.
If it is independent villas and rural houses its not anything we haven't all been saying is going to happen anyway is it?
If it is independent villas and rural houses its not anything we haven't all been saying is going to happen anyway is it?
agreed we have been expecting stand alone villas and rural houses to be able to licence. The the new draft law has indicated that they must be 500 meters from the coast, so that is already causing anguish for many villa owners in nice coastal locations that you would think would be popular with tourists. What a farce, I mean what was wrong with just allowing stand alone villas everywhere to licence? There is no sole agent issue, the villa owner is the sole agent. How long did the govt wrangle before deciding on the 500m limit? Did the hotels originally demand 5 km ?
From that point we can conclude that the legalising of stand alone villas has involved the hotels seeing this as a threat to their business in resort, and they have demanded the 500m embargo.
The point about la palma is that even before this new draft law the authorities there have listened to the rural renters when this crackdown first began 2 years ago, and they have legalised them without waiting for the draft law. We note that this island is not as developed in terms of mass tourism than say tenerife, and that it has not got quite so many hotels. These independant renters would be an important part of the la palma economy , and we note that these renters are mainly spanish.
what I would like to see is a legal challenge to the letting laws to the madrid courts and later if necesary to europe. It seems to me that if an independant renter can rent a property on la palma legally, then there should be no reason why someone could not rent out independantly a property on tenerife. That would be any property in any location, whether stand alone, up a mountain, or in a resort as part of a complex of apartments.
Up to now in this crackdown I have heard talk of taking class actions to madrid courts etc, but nothing has emerged so far. It may be that this happens after the cases are eventually heard in the canarian courts. These developments on la palma should have some relevance to the legal arguments as things progress.
The 500m will be a law from "costas"..... Same law that threatens to demolish a hotel in el medano
But let's pretend its that nasty hotel association throwing their toys out the pram.....
Never let the facts get in the way of sensationalism
duquessa
10-10-2012, 11:03
When in Tenerife we heard so much talk that you are not allowed to advertise your apartment on a holiday lettings website and if you do you can be fined?
Is this true and why? Dont they want to encourage tourism?
karinagal
10-10-2012, 11:22
Have a read at the Tenerife Illegal Lettings thread - if you have a spare day or two..
The undisputed queen of de-nial
But let's pretend its that nasty hotel association throwing their toys out the pram.....
Never let the facts get in the way of sensationalism
well I may be wrong , fair enough, but surely the costas law is to do with knocking down the builds that are near the coast that should not be there? The distance for that law is not 500m is it? We are not talking about new build villas, that would be under the costas laws yes, but as I say does the costas law demand no building up to 500m from the coast.
What we are looking at is existing villas and we are told that only those beyond the 500m will be licenced.
If the law demands no licencing up to 500m from the coast , that is half a kilometer, I will have a look next time I am in los cristo with my tape measure. There may be a few places already in that measure who are operating.
You can read up on proposed changes to the Costas laws here - they are complicated, confusing, and in many cases ridiculous, but this is Spain. Costas is a central Governmant law, not Canarian, but applies here, hence the problems in El Medano
http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/10/05/inenglish/1349452596_560441.html
By the way, it's Los Cristianos, not los cristo
agreed we have been expecting stand alone villas and rural houses to be able to licence. The the new draft law has indicated that they must be 500 meters from the coast, so that is already causing anguish for many villa owners in nice coastal locations that you would think would be popular with tourists. What a farce, I mean what was wrong with just allowing stand alone villas everywhere to licence? There is no sole agent issue, the villa owner is the sole agent. How long did the govt wrangle before deciding on the 500m limit? Did the hotels originally demand 5 km ?
From that point we can conclude that the legalising of stand alone villas has involved the hotels seeing this as a threat to their business in resort, and they have demanded the 500m embargo.
The point about la palma is that even before this new draft law the authorities there have listened to the rural renters when this crackdown first began 2 years ago, and they have legalised them without waiting for the draft law. We note that this island is not as developed in terms of mass tourism than say tenerife, and that it has not got quite so many hotels. These independant renters would be an important part of the la palma economy , and we note that these renters are mainly spanish.
what I would like to see is a legal challenge to the letting laws to the madrid courts and later if necesary to europe. It seems to me that if an independant renter can rent a property on la palma legally, then there should be no reason why someone could not rent out independantly a property on tenerife. That would be any property in any location, whether stand alone, up a mountain, or in a resort as part of a complex of apartments.
Up to now in this crackdown I have heard talk of taking class actions to madrid courts etc, but nothing has emerged so far. It may be that this happens after the cases are eventually heard in the canarian courts. These developments on la palma should have some relevance to the legal arguments as things progress.
Why would the rental of casas rurales in La Palma have anything to do with the renting of apartments on residential complexes or the renting of apartments on touristic complexes (other than through the official agent) in Tenerife ? As we have said, more than once before, on this thread,there will never be a legal approval of short term rentals on residential complexes,never,ever!!!! It's extremely unlikely that the law will change to allow open renting on touristic complexes because there has to be accountability and this means a person or company who is on the complex and with all the relevent documentation and insurance, not in Russia,UK,China or wherever.You write as if there are only British owners renting out their apartments and of course this is not so. Looking back over the years I can remember people dying in "holiday apartments" due to carbon monoxide poisoning.Those owners hadn't visited their own apartments to check them over for two or three years.They just kept renting them out,collecting the money the Uk and had no interest in safety of their clients. There are some bad agents about at the moment and they need sorting but the system as operated on Paloma Beach for example,works well and should continue for the safety of our tourists.
the atricle does say that the beach can not be privatley owned, then it says that a zone approx 500m from the coast carries certain other restrictions. Its a small point in a bigger mess. It is going to cause a lot of villa owners in nice coastal locations problems, when basically they could have nearly got legal.
But yes, could be down to something in the costas law and not down to hotel pressure.
But yes, could be down to something in the costas law and not down to hotel pressure.
can i frame this?
You couldn't make it up could you?
There's nothing like badly written Spanish law, tinged with the thought "we can always steal it"
offshore diver
16-11-2012, 18:38
well chaps it looks like spanish owners in the north have no idea this law is being applied in south tenerife ,i was sat next to a canarian woman mid thirties on a flight from madrid to tenerife north airport who owned an apartment in las americas i then brought up the law 95 being applied and all the fines mabey affecting property prices etc and she looked at me astonished ,i never heard about this then i said better to go on google and check with your council etc ,she did nt seem to happy so the question is this issue needs more expousure in the spanish press ,get the affected canarians involved and things will change sooner than later hopefully that news is doing the rounds already
So one Spanish owner who doesn't know the law = everyone from the north?
I bet at least 50-70% of the owners on paloma beach who are with us don't even realize they have to be because of the law.
I was speaking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago [he's not an ex pat] who had met and spoken to 2 inspectors and he had asked them why it wasn't in the media spotlight in the Canaries,He was told they were trying to keep things low key for now and didn't want to cause alarm or panic amongst residents or scare off tourists,He also agreed that it would have a deterimental effect on local business's and Taxi's buses etc! Its a crazy unworkable law especially in the present climate !!! and next time im over i expect to see many more business's/Pool bars closed down that once thrived on the back of self catering complexes! The knock on effect will be disasterous! I think there are far more important issues that need dealing with locally rather than giving "us the holidaymakers" 50% less places to stay! Why try and fix something that isnt broke! Only in the Canaries eh!
I was speaking to a friend of mine a few weeks ago [he's not an ex pat] who had met and spoken to 2 inspectors and he had asked them why it wasn't in the media spotlight in the Canaries,He was told they were trying to keep things low key for now and didn't want to cause alarm or panic amongst residents or scare off tourists,He also agreed that it would have a deterimental effect on local business's and Taxi's buses etc! Its a crazy unworkable law especially in the present climate !!! and next time im over i expect to see many more business's/Pool bars closed down that once thrived on the back of self catering complexes! The knock on effect will be disasterous! I think there are far more important issues that need dealing with locally rather than giving "us the holidaymakers" 50% less places to stay! Why try and fix something that isnt broke! Only in the Canaries eh!
100% correct Al Jay. The reason they are doing this is that the hotels are able to exert undue pressure on the canarian govt and likewise the canarian govt are working with the hotels, not working to their constitutional duty to act in the best interest of the entire canarian population. In that respect this policy is either hopelessly stupid and a huge mistake or it exists due to corruption at govt level. The canarian govt deptartments , including tourismo, are duty bound by the democratic constition to act in the best interests of the canarian population. The policeis they put in place have to pass that duty of care test, the duty of care that they owe the people in the spanish democracy. This policy is aleady contributing to record unemployment and regional demands for more social benebfirt funding from Madrid. Tourist footfall has been lost last summer, offical numbers are up but the private renters are down in footfall by much more than the offical increases. The result is 30,000 more unemployed in the canaries than last october. Next summer 2013 will be far worse, internet advertisers have no bookings for summer 2013 , their ads are now long dead. The low cost carriers are pulling summer 2013 routes to the canaries, they are not parking the jets up , the tourists are still there , just re routing to destinations on the internet sites that are still available, the airplane companies are just altering the routes to where the customers are now booking. The canaries have been removed from e commerce tourism, and e commerce is the fastest growing retail market in europe.
This policy has to be investigated by constitutional judges, it does not pass any sort of duty of care to the canarian population, they must not be allowed to continue to get away with it covertly and unchallenged.
Cant we get this out to the media and get some air time?
Cant we get this out to the media and get some air time?
That is exactly what is needed. Bizzarely alotca, the so called campaign group against the crackdown, have not gone down that road. clearly that is what is required, most canarians dont even realise that this crackdown is occuring, they can not blame their govt for the unemployment figures because they are thinking its all down to the world economic crisis. I would be prepared to contribute myself to the cost of adverts in the canarian papers to get this message out there. When canarians are being evicted from their homes by the banks it beggars belief that their own govt is damaging the economy, and the population dont even know they are doing this.Added to that there is the duty of care / corruption issue , and that needs making public in the canarian/spanish media as well. How could this insane policy ever be justified on sensible economic grounds? The authorities in spain need to become involved in all of this and quickly.
But as you say Suzanne, the local media need to be made aware as a matter of urgency.
The "English" media are well aware and have been reporting on this issue for some time now, and whilst their coverage has raised the profile of this matter significantly to their readers and listeners on the islands, and further afield (Daily Mail etc.), relatively little interest has been shown by the Canarian/Spanish media.
Why?
Perhaps because, generally, it is actually of little interest to the Canarians. They have their own set of problems to wrestle with at this time. It must be remembered that whilst the tourist industry is an important part of the Canarian economy, it is intensly concentrated - Tenerife for example on the coastal strip from Las Americas to Los Gigantes and around Puerto. Many of the areas were undeveloped before the boom, and, frankly, a lot of Canarians have never ventured anywhere near nor have much interest in doing so, therefore it doesn't figure that highly on their radar.
Whilst by no means a universal view, many locals view the "plight" of those who bought here and the development of the associated enclaves as matters which have little or no interest to them. Their concerns are far more concentrated on the way their mother country rules over them, takes away their taxes and returns less and less each year, and more recently the way in which the mainland has given permission for oil exploration of the Canarian coast which, locals fear will lead to further exploitation of Canarian resources.
In the scheme of things, the number of "foreigners" affected by the touristic laws is pretty insignificant compared to hospital waiting lists which have been growing by the day, the fact that chemists had virtually run out of medicins and thousands of Canarians who are living in virtual poverty.
The relatively few who bought property here and lived off the proceeds until recently are viewed locally as being affluent enough to cope with their situation adequately, and any attempt to curb the exploitation of their country by foreigners and making the tourist industry fully accountable is seen by the voters as being the correct way to be going about things. To a very great extent, this attitude is also applied and extended to the relatively few Spanish families who own much of the property locally and who are viewed by the islanders as being equally "foreign"
the fact is most canarians would be indifferent to the problems of the foreigners, but they would be concerned about the significant harmful effect on their economy and jobs. The tourist zones are small but they drive the whole canarian economy. The private rented industry is around 1 million beds! the damage we are seeing today is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of restricted footfall, there are many renters not advertising but still getting swallows in and anyone else that they can. If they all stopped completely the whole canarian economy would completely collapse. It would be interseting to know what job Senora Omana had lost , before the bank wanted to evict her? She lives in santa cruz , but I will wager that ultimatley her job loss is in some way related to the declining economy behind tourism. There are many thousands of Senora Omanas out there around the islands, if they knew the facts behind the govts self inflicted damage to the canarian economy they would demand some action.
But exactly what damage are "we" seeing today??
Tourist numbers continue to hold their own, and unemployment is down, albeit only a touch
Your argument would be more believable if your predictions of doom and gloom were being reflected in the official statistics - but to date they are not.
http://newsinthesun.com/canary-unemployment-down/
Also, whilst probably not the most popular association in the islands, this article does make a very good point toward the end.
you say there is no sign of a downturn. My friends in resorts and others on here say things were very quiet this past summer and getting worse. I have always said that the crackdown would increase occupancy in legal accomadation, the few might benefit, But the problem is that the crackdown involves stopping 10 tourists coming to the canaries who prefer apartments and only 2 off them go on to stay in legal accomodation. So there you have it, bouyant official tourist numbers but overall a decline in footfall. Happy days for the protectionist hotels/sole agents but misery for the rest of the population who needed the other 8 tourists spending power to earn their livings. That is what is at the heart of this issue, it is economic madness and the govt should never have decided to do this if they had carried out due dilligence and proper duty of care. Or are they happy if the result is a few extra punters for the hotels even though they fully accept that everyone else is going to have to suffer. Or did they hope that all the 10 displaced apartment customers might go to stay in hotels?
Your article showing 30,000 extra unemployed since last October tells the true picture. The slight fall in unemployment shown now will be down to winter tourists , the canaries strongest market. the none advertising apartments will still be getting family and friends swallows until next May. The canaries will be doing better than spain due to the winter tourist season which mainland spain has less of. It also shows how much more the canaries depend on tourism than even spain, there is not much else at all in the canary islands and the seasonal increase in occupancy immediatley helps create jobs.
None of us can escape the fact that if official tourism is really booming, then why is unemployment 30,000 more than last October?
The answer is the reduction in unofficial tourists due to the crackdown, its bad all around the islands, flight companies are pulling flights. The Monarch thursday flight has now stopped from manchester, previously this was every day. When I personally report sending 10 weeks less customers to the caneries this past summer, it is logical that other private renters may have similar reductions to report. When you multiply that by the vast number of private apartments there you have your problem.
Its like I have said to you many times before, if the private rented apartments are insignificant to the canarian economy, why bother to attack them at all ?
junglejim
17-11-2012, 21:17
Muppet- you say unemployment is down ! Yes to an eye watering 25% average and more than 50% of under 25's which is shocking and sucking billions out of state that cannot be used to pay for health care and drugs!
Causing people to stop renting ( illegally or not) - and there are many who have stopped- can only have a retrograde effect on Tenerife economy and hence tax receipts - this issue has been dragging on to long due to self interest and lack of leadership in Canarian Government .
Like lemmings they are heading towards what's popularly known now as their own "Fiscal Cliff" and dragging a lot of innocent and literally ignorant people with them !
Jim, there is no denying that the Government here leaves much to be desired on so many levels, but things don't actually work the way you describe.
Tax and Social payments do not go to the Canarian economy, they are collected centrally by Spain and then re-distributed back to the regions in the form of annual "allowances" and one of the largest problems facing these islands is that the allowance has been dramatically cut already and is about to be cut again for next year by another 7%.
What does go into the Canarian economy is the local sales tax (IGIC) which was raised this year from 5 to 7% and will doubtless have to be raised again because of the drop in the allowance from the mainland.
One of the arguments put forward against "illegal" letting is that local sales tax should be being charged and collected on every transaction that takes place on the Canaries including letting your apartment to clients sourced on the internet or elsewhere. Because the activity is "illegal" there is no mechanic for collecting 7% of the value of your client's transaction with you (the landlord) and passing it into the local economy.
If, as is being suggested, the illegal industry involves thousands of illegal beds being used every week in the Canaries, think of it this way. For every 1,000 illegal tourist beds rented outside of the local tax system, at say 300 euro a week, the local economy is being deprived of 21,000 Euro per week in IGIC. Multiply that by the tens of thousands of illegal beds that the likes of Nelson would have us believe are (or were) available, and the loss of revenue to the local economy begins to be seen and might go some way to explaining why the Canarian economy and unemployment is at the levels it actually is (34%)
The hotel industry (which is FAR from perfect) raise the point, rightly, that the majority of transactions taking place in the "illegal" industry involve cash which exchanges not only under the counter, but often outside the islands which, even IF there were a mechanic for collecting the IGIC on such transactions, would remain undeclared and uncollected.
The belief however that the reduction in "footfall" created by the recent falls in the illegal letting industry is responsible for the present economic position of the islands and that if such activity were to be allowed to continue as before it would provide many of the answers to the present economical woes of the islands is farcical in the extreme. The solutions however involve cultural changes which are equally farcical and radical and involve the mentality of the country as a whole - an entirely different discussion.
For the moment though, the Canarian Government wishes to get a grip and get control over one of its assets (tourism), and, since it is their country (or to use an old analogy "their trainset") they will play with it however they see fit.
junglejim
18-11-2012, 12:05
Don't disagree with your assessment Muppet but I know of a fair number of owners who are illegal under '95 law that declare their income and pay taxes - a few of them have chosen to stop letting as they do not want to be fined.
This has a decided effect on both the local economy and the " National Tax" so if the cake is smaller then everyone gets a thinner slice !
It must be doing wonders for property sales and all the taxes that involves too!
Jim, there is no denying that the Government here leaves much to be desired on so many levels, but things don't actually work the way you describe.
Tax and Social payments do not go to the Canarian economy, they are collected centrally by Spain and then re-distributed back to the regions in the form of annual "allowances" and one of the largest problems facing these islands is that the allowance has been dramatically cut already and is about to be cut again for next year by another 7%.
What does go into the Canarian economy is the local sales tax (IGIC) which was raised this year from 5 to 7% and will doubtless have to be raised again because of the drop in the allowance from the mainland.
One of the arguments put forward against "illegal" letting is that local sales tax should be being charged and collected on every transaction that takes place on the Canaries including letting your apartment to clients sourced on the internet or elsewhere. Because the activity is "illegal" there is no mechanic for collecting 7% of the value of your client's transaction with you (the landlord) and passing it into the local economy.
If, as is being suggested, the illegal industry involves thousands of illegal beds being used every week in the Canaries, think of it this way. For every 1,000 illegal tourist beds rented outside of the local tax system, at say 300 euro a week, the local economy is being deprived of 21,000 Euro per week in IGIC. Multiply that by the tens of thousands of illegal beds that the likes of Nelson would have us believe are (or were) available, and the loss of revenue to the local economy begins to be seen and might go some way to explaining why the Canarian economy and unemployment is at the levels it actually is (34%)
The hotel industry (which is FAR from perfect) raise the point, rightly, that the majority of transactions taking place in the "illegal" industry involve cash which exchanges not only under the counter, but often outside the islands which, even IF there were a mechanic for collecting the IGIC on such transactions, would remain undeclared and uncollected.
The belief however that the reduction in "footfall" created by the recent falls in the illegal letting industry is responsible for the present economic position of the islands and that if such activity were to be allowed to continue as before it would provide many of the answers to the present economical woes of the islands is farcical in the extreme. The solutions however involve cultural changes which are equally farcical and radical and involve the mentality of the country as a whole - an entirely different discussion.
For the moment though, the Canarian Government wishes to get a grip and get control over one of its assets (tourism), and, since it is their country (or to use an old analogy "their trainset") they will play with it however they see fit.
in my view, and many more, the reduction in footfall of tourists to the islands as a result of the crackdown on private renting, is a part of the economic decline of the islands in the past 12 months. Before that the crack down had limited effect, the attack had been publisiced , but most continued to advertise on the internet unsure what would happen. The internet ads disappeared towards the end of 2011. The reductions are going to worse summer 2013, watch the unemployment figures for next October and low cost flight routes to the canaries. Its a simple undeniable fact, there has been a reduction in apartment tourists not made good by an increase in legal tourists,
I agree with you on the tax issue. What was needed in 2008 was not an end to the private renting, and damage to the economy, but regulation of it. Tax by way of an annual permit to be paid, they have to pay 400 euro per year in portugal, in the canaries with year round renting 1000 euro per apartment would not be too fanciful or unfair.
Its as simple as that, the renting industry was too large and important economically to destroy, and if it was not paying tax, well that was what was needed to be done. Had the govt conducted duty of care on this issue as the constitution demands, or took independant economic advice on the issue, that is what they would have been advised to do. There never was a need to harm their economy and risk increasing unemployment.
There plenty of online accomodtion sites who rent from outside Tenerife who do not pay directly into the tax system and uk based agents and private owners who also rent apartments in Tenerife in the true sense off the 95 law its probably illegal (opinions Please}for them to do so even in a legal tourist complex as all bookings should be done by the licence holder. As a owner in a touristic complex to turn your apartment over to the exploiter (liicence holder }and receive 4000 euros a year and limited use and have to pay to use my own apartment if i want to use it more than they allow is a non starter. Who on earth would now pay as i did 160,000 euro and get a return as poor as this no one who has the correct information i would ,if the licence holder would return a fair income on your investment and treat them fairley (yes i know some do pay more but very few)more people whould be happy to turn over there apartment to them.
in my view, and many more, the reduction in footfall of tourists to the islands as a result of the crackdown on private renting, is a part of the economic decline of the islands in the past 12 months. Before that the crack down had limited effect, the attack had been publisiced , but most continued to advertise on the internet unsure what would happen. The internet ads disappeared towards the end of 2011. The reductions are going to worse summer 2013, watch the unemployment figures for next October and low cost flight routes to the canaries. Its a simple undeniable fact, there has been a reduction in apartment tourists not made good by an increase in legal tourists,
I agree with you on the tax issue. What was needed in 2008 was not an end to the private renting, and damage to the economy, but regulation of it. Tax by way of an annual permit to be paid, they have to pay 400 euro per year in portugal, in the canaries with year round renting 1000 euro per apartment would not be too fanciful or unfair.
Its as simple as that, the renting industry was too large and important economically to destroy, and if it was not paying tax, well that was what was needed to be done. Had the govt conducted duty of care on this issue as the constitution demands, or took independant economic advice on the issue, that is what they would have been advised to do. There never was a need to harm their economy and risk increasing unemployment.
But once more you overlook the most important factor - this is not Portugal !!!!
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Don't disagree with your assessment Muppet but I know of a fair number of owners who are illegal under '95 law that declare their income and pay taxes - a few of them have chosen to stop letting as they do not want to be fined.
This has a decided effect on both the local economy and the " National Tax" so if the cake is smaller then everyone gets a thinner slice !
It must be doing wonders for property sales and all the taxes that involves too!
Those who you know are not, because it is impossible to, paying IGIC to the Canarian Government and therefore the local economy, on their rental receipts - there is no mechanic by which they can
But once more you overlook the most important factor - this is not Portugal !!!!
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spain like portugal is in the EU, people need jobs and work in both countries. Spain and portugal are both democracies, protectionist economically harmful sytems are not needed in either country. The canarian govt role in this crackdown needs examining as to how, given their duty of care to the canarian population. they can justify reducing tourist footfall and damaging their economy.
spain is still in transition from dictatorship to democracy, the canarian govt needs to understand that a democratically accountable govt means just that, if its policy does not help all its citizens then the policy is corrupt. They are constitutionally bound to act in the wide interest of the entire population in the canaries, not just to cosy up to one business sector for the benefit of that sector.
the answer in 2008, the logical answer, was as you said , tax the private renters and regulate them, that was what was in the best interest of the canarian economy and people.
Those who you know are not, because it is impossible to, paying IGIC to the Canarian Government and therefore the local economy, on their rental receipts - there is no mechanic by which they can
??????????????
Private renters may declare income tax but there is no way for them to pay local tax igic in their tax return because they are not businesses.
seanocelt
19-11-2012, 04:18
Nelson God Bless you for the continuous verbals but its tiresome, if we highlighted keywords in all of your copious posts , "footfall, "Portugal", " stupid" .....would appear dozens of times. I honestly do not believe any of us wish you any harm, and your honesty on the unjust fines is commendable. But its getting tiresome now,long winded "cause and effect" rants that nobody really agrees with .
You have my sincere sympathy, plenty of others let and do not get the horrendous fine you were given, but you will not get much support by keeping on telling us the impact on the islands that will ensue, and our demise, because of a crap law that you hate. Sorry pal, but its true. We(most of us) wish it otherwise. Here 's a couple of facts (recent) and not wishes.
1/ winter "f-word"... footfall has got off to a flyer, its been really busy. We are all quite surprised but its been really busy way up on last Nov. 2/ illegal lets are now restarting. Yes i know, incredible, but its on my doorstep, i aint happy about it, but people seem to be saying "f.....ootfall.... It, i never got a fine, im renting again". As a worker that lives on a "residential" i now have tourists driving me mad with noise, the owners must have said " im doing it , everyone else is". Good luck with the fine, try to tone down the " Canaries will die" lines, because, i do not think they will. Written with best intentions, Sean.
I think you're right Sean, people seem to have given up worrying about the law and are letting again.
I was in Los Cris last week and there was a party of 40 people from my home town there at the same time.
Out of these I think only 6 were in legal apartments.
They've all booked for next November so I'm guessing the owners are confident.
canary boy
19-11-2012, 12:54
Has it occurred to anyone maybe why the business in Tenerife are doing OK is because no or very few have stopped renting? Nearly no one has stopped, The real impact of the law will only be felt when the final appeal has been announced. My friends still have 90% occupancy and are taking a high percentage out of the letting income ( putting to one side)to pay most of the fine off at the end of next year. If there lucky enough to get the fine reduced then they will plough the extra in to making the property even better than before. All there guests are aware of the issue with letting but they are not bothered they are nearly all repeat guests almost family you could say:zzz::zzz:
Has it occurred to anyone maybe why the business in Tenerife are doing OK is because no or very few have stopped renting? Nearly no one has stopped, The real impact of the law will only be felt when the final appeal has been announced. My friends still have 90% occupancy and are taking a high percentage out of the letting income ( putting to one side)to pay most of the fine off at the end of next year. If there lucky enough to get the fine reduced then they will plough the extra in to making the property even better than before. All there guests are aware of the issue with letting but they are not bothered they are nearly all repeat guests almost family you could say:zzz::zzz:
Think you are quite correct on this point, I have often said that if renting stopped completely the economy wound certainley collaspe. The winter is the canaries strongest season, and off cousre many renters have solid repeat swallows etc. The surge of footfall mentioned will be many post half term swallows, arriving on the cheaper flights. The damage is summer bookings lost to renters without internet ads, we all saw that last summer and it will be worse summer 2013. Of course nothing near as bad as if all the renting was stopped altogether.
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of course this explains the tourists back on Seancelts complex, I know which it is he has mentioned it before. The complex used to feature heavily on the internet ads, nowadays maybe the odd internal photo type ad but largely no internet ads anymore for the place. The winter swallows , though, are happy to return and the owners happy to take them in. They will have all kept the phone numbers and re booked from previous winter stays. If your complex was quiet without tourists in the summer seancelt, well that would be the lower footfall the crackdown has created.
canary boy
19-11-2012, 23:21
Because of the lack of ads now guests are using the same apartment because that's who they have contact with, In affect this clampdown has helped the owner, Not only does he get a high occupancy he gets to know the guests very well and they become friends so when asked "This is my friends apartment that I'm staying In" No ads saving the costs of advertising and low maintenance fees because the repeat guests treat it as there own. Whatever the outcome those loyal guests will always be there,Its not all doom and gloom for my friend its good times at the moment
seanocelt
20-11-2012, 02:53
Because of the lack of ads now guests are using the same apartment because that's who they have contact with, In affect this clampdown has helped the owner, Not only does he get a high occupancy he gets to know the guests very well and they become friends so when asked "This is my friends apartment that I'm staying In" No ads saving the costs of advertising and low maintenance fees because the repeat guests treat it as there own. Whatever the outcome those loyal guests will always be there,Its not all doom and gloom for my friend its good times at the moment
Correct. On many levels.
Private renters may declare income tax but there is no way for them to pay local tax igic in their tax return because they are not businesses.
I know it has been mentioned before but it is worth saying again ........ IGIC is only charged once income is over a certain level. I for one paid IGIC on income from my apartments ..... despite the fact that I had not known I should have been renting via the sole agent. The hacienda were happy to receve it and the accountant never mentioned the fact that I was doing anything incorrect.
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Nelson God Bless you for the continuous verbals but its tiresome, if we highlighted keywords in all of your copious posts , "footfall, "Portugal", " stupid" .....would appear dozens of times. I honestly do not believe any of us wish you any harm, and your honesty on the unjust fines is commendable. But its getting tiresome now,long winded "cause and effect" rants that nobody really agrees with .
You have my sincere sympathy, plenty of others let and do not get the horrendous fine you were given, but you will not get much support by keeping on telling us the impact on the islands that will ensue, and our demise, because of a crap law that you hate. Sorry pal, but its true. We(most of us) wish it otherwise. Here 's a couple of facts (recent) and not wishes.
1/ winter "f-word"... footfall has got off to a flyer, its been really busy. We are all quite surprised but its been really busy way up on last Nov. 2/ illegal lets are now restarting. Yes i know, incredible, but its on my doorstep, i aint happy about it, but people seem to be saying "f.....ootfall.... It, i never got a fine, im renting again". As a worker that lives on a "residential" i now have tourists driving me mad with noise, the owners must have said " im doing it , everyone else is". Good luck with the fine, try to tone down the " Canaries will die" lines, because, i do not think they will. Written with best intentions, Sean.
In many cases the owners are just honouring bookings they had prior to finding out about the implications of the law. Most renters at this time of year book way over a year in advance. I think a lot of these owners have stopped advertising and will be loathe to accept bookings from regulars for next winter.
Because of the lack of ads now guests are using the same apartment because that's who they have contact with, In affect this clampdown has helped the owner, Not only does he get a high occupancy he gets to know the guests very well and they become friends so when asked "This is my friends apartment that I'm staying In" No ads saving the costs of advertising and low maintenance fees because the repeat guests treat it as there own. Whatever the outcome those loyal guests will always be there,Its not all doom and gloom for my friend its good times at the moment
Only 2 problems with that logic;
1. There is no friends and family law.
2. Regulars eventually become less regular as health, personal circumstances etc change them.
Third issue is that there is no longer a ceiling for IGIC - this was changed when the rates changed last year - it now applies to every transaction.
Another issue with swallows is that, generally, they are 3 month (plus) rentals and therefore fall into the long-term category under civil law.
seanocelt
20-11-2012, 13:06
Well, be aware if this all of you who think its honoured bookings/swallows (i dont know if you get to talk to tourists in your jobs every day, we do). I have had tourists tell me they got on Sur y Sol via the internet at a week's notice, El Mirador through a frind of an owner, never been before, and through ads in a local papaer in the UK. (not internet, not advertised in Spain). I also suspect as per last year, some complexes' sole agents are using residentilas as overflow when full. Plenty of loopholes being exploited, its a near impossible law to fully impose as it stands.
golf birdie
20-11-2012, 13:43
Well, be aware if this all of you who think its honoured bookings/swallows (i dont know if you get to talk to tourists in your jobs every day, we do). I have had tourists tell me they got on Sur y Sol via the internet at a week's notice, El Mirador through a frind of an owner, never been before, and through ads in a local papaer in the UK. (not internet, not advertised in Spain). I also suspect as per last year, some complexes' sole agents are using residentilas as overflow when full. Plenty of loopholes being exploited, its a near impossible law to fully impose as it stands.
people rented apartments before the internet was even heard of. I know owners who have never and I mean never placed an add for their apartments and have been fully booked for the past 15 years. The internet just made it easier for people to do so.
Third issue is that there is no longer a ceiling for IGIC - this was changed when the rates changed last year - it now applies to every transaction.
Another issue with swallows is that, generally, they are 3 month (plus) rentals and therefore fall into the long-term category under civil law.
Only if there is a contract as per
Civil law, and only if their permanent residence is that of the apartment they're in (under tourist law).
Only if there is a contract as per
Civil law, and only if their permanent residence is that of the apartment they're in (under tourist law).
I agree re the contracts, but the real point here is that of the collection of IGIC on touristic rentals.
Presumably it now falls on your shoulders to collect this (at the new rate) on all rentals you administer. The point that the Nelson's of the world make is that they pay their taxes on their income, which, whilst many may do through their advisors, goes to Madrid. They are still not adding Canarian IGIC to their fees, nor paying it into the Canarian Government coffers as there is no system for doing so.
Further, even if some form of private letting were to be legalised, those doing so would need to be brought inside the latest laws regarding the collection of IGIC for which there is now no ceiling level below which this needs to be done, meaning that, in theory even a single apartment letter would need to charge and pay in the IGIC.
Of course this all points to the relative simplicity of maintaining the agent system where relatively few are tasked with collecting IGIC rather each single owner - if you follow the point I'm trying to make.
I agree re the contracts, but the real point here is that of the collection of IGIC on touristic rentals.
Presumably it now falls on your shoulders to collect this (at the new rate) on all rentals you administer. The point that the Nelson's of the world make is that they pay their taxes on their income, which, whilst many may do through their advisors, goes to Madrid. They are still not adding Canarian IGIC to their fees, nor paying it into the Canarian Government coffers as there is no system for doing so.
Further, even if some form of private letting were to be legalised, those doing so would need to be brought inside the latest laws regarding the collection of IGIC for which there is now no ceiling level below which this needs to be done, meaning that, in theory even a single apartment letter would need to charge and pay in the IGIC.
Of course this all points to the relative simplicity of maintaining the agent system where relatively few are tasked with collecting IGIC rather each single owner - if you follow the point I'm trying to make.
forget ignic for taxing private renters. clearly you will end up with brits /foreigners being paid abroad and the canarian govt will get no tax at all. There would be no practicle way to coolect what was due. The way to get the tax in to the canaries from the private renters is by way of annual permit, as they do in portugal. They pay 400 euro per year per apartment. In the canaries with the year round renting season 1000 euro per year per apartment would be reasonable. Owners advertising would need to be legal and have paid their annual permit. I recommend that community of owners be liable as well if owners let out without a paid permit, just to help police the system.
The islands dont need sole agent overlords to get involved , any more than portugal ever did.
forget ignic for taxing private renters. clearly you will end up with brits /foreigners being paid abroad and the canarian govt will get no tax at all. There would be no practicle way to coolect what was due. The way to get the tax in to the canaries from the private renters is by way of annual permit, as they do in portugal. They pay 400 euro per year per apartment. In the canaries with the year round renting season 1000 euro per year per apartment would be reasonable. Owners advertising would need to be legal and have paid their annual permit. I recommend that community of owners be liable as well if owners let out without a paid permit, just to help police the system.
The islands dont need sole agent overlords to get involved , any more than portugal ever did.
And herein lies the fundamental flaw in your arguments regarding your views on the benefits of what you do for the Canarian economy - basically not a lot !
seanocelt
21-11-2012, 03:29
forget ignic for taxing private renters. clearly you will end up with brits /foreigners being paid abroad and the canarian govt will get no tax at all. There would be no practicle way to coolect what was due. The way to get the tax in to the canaries from the private renters is by way of annual permit, as they do in portugal. They pay 400 euro per year per apartment. In the canaries with the year round renting season 1000 euro per year per apartment would be reasonable. Owners advertising would need to be legal and have paid their annual permit. I recommend that community of owners be liable as well if owners let out without a paid permit, just to help police the system.
The islands dont need sole agent overlords to get involved , any more than portugal ever did.
Thank you for "your recommending" a solution. Who on Earth do you think is listening? I have made it obvious before that i feel sad for you and your plight, but .....sorry, you will NOT be able to recommend anything, to anyone.....that matters.
I agree re the contracts, but the real point here is that of the collection of IGIC on touristic rentals.
Presumably it now falls on your shoulders to collect this (at the new rate) on all rentals you administer. The point that the Nelson's of the world make is that they pay their taxes on their income, which, whilst many may do through their advisors, goes to Madrid. They are still not adding Canarian IGIC to their fees, nor paying it into the Canarian Government coffers as there is no system for doing so.
Further, even if some form of private letting were to be legalised, those doing so would need to be brought inside the latest laws regarding the collection of IGIC for which there is now no ceiling level below which this needs to be done, meaning that, in theory even a single apartment letter would need to charge and pay in the IGIC.
Of course this all points to the relative simplicity of maintaining the agent system where relatively few are tasked with collecting IGIC rather each single owner - if you follow the point I'm trying to make.
What I don't understand ............well, one of the many things!!! ........... if some owners have been declaring their income via a Canarian accountant, and paying income tax on their earnings, then why did their accountant not advise them of their need to pay IGIC? That is what happened with me .......... surely others are in the same position? Obviously on discovering we shouldn't even be letting our apartments we cancelled our ads and put them up for sale.
canary boy
21-11-2012, 22:28
Only 2 problems with that logic;
1. There is no friends and family law.
2. Regulars eventually become less regular as health, personal circumstances etc change them.
Friends and family law ? Whats that? I dont know what your on about? I just said my friends are staying at my apartment nothing about any law?
Ans secondly what do happy guests do? Tell there daughters and sons and friends , God this isnt rocket science
Wasn't Reveron - the Mayor of Arona - one of the prime movers behind the clampdown on ''Illegal'' Lettings?
http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000043/0/38354/daily-news-article.html
Arona mayor resigns after conviction ratified
Arona's mayor has resigned after learning yesterday that an appeal against his conviction for bending the rules in recruitment procedures to favour two friends has been rejected.
José Alberto González Reverón was convicted back in June for serious irregularities in the recruitment of two women to council posts. The conviction carries with it an automatic ban from holding public office for four and a half years. However, despite mounting criticism, he refused to step down until his appeal was heard. The mayor was informed yesterday that judges have upheld the original ruling and within hours he convened a press conference to announce his resignation. Reverón slammed opposition parties in Arona for waging a dogged campaign to force him out and, in reference to the continued corruption speculation that surrounds him and several colleagues, he insisted that 'he had not become any richer' as a result of his time in charge.
Wasn't Reveron - the Mayor of Arona - one of the prime movers behind the clampdown on ''Illegal'' Lettings?
http://www.islandconnections.eu/1000003/1000043/0/38354/daily-news-article.html
Arona mayor resigns after conviction ratified
Arona's mayor has resigned after learning yesterday that an appeal against his conviction for bending the rules in recruitment procedures to favour two friends has been rejected.
José Alberto González Reverón was convicted back in June for serious irregularities in the recruitment of two women to council posts. The conviction carries with it an automatic ban from holding public office for four and a half years. However, despite mounting criticism, he refused to step down until his appeal was heard. The mayor was informed yesterday that judges have upheld the original ruling and within hours he convened a press conference to announce his resignation. Reverón slammed opposition parties in Arona for waging a dogged campaign to force him out and, in reference to the continued corruption speculation that surrounds him and several colleagues, he insisted that 'he had not become any richer' as a result of his time in charge.
Maybe not,but a lot of other people have!!1 Hurray he's gone ,let's hope the next one isn't worse.
Maybe not,but a lot of other people have!!1 Hurray he's gone ,let's hope the next one isn't worse.
lets not forget he was the mayor who sorted out veronicas,made los cris. the green
and pleasant place it is now plus lots of other areas as well ,not all bad i think!!
lets not forget he was the mayor who sorted out veronicas,made los cris. the green
and pleasant place it is now plus lots of other areas as well ,not all bad i think!!
Sorted out Veronicas???????? The list of what was wrong is endless but of course given the amount of money in Arona's kitty over the past boom years he would have been able to do much much more had he not been looking after his cronies.
Friends and family law ? Whats that? I dont know what your on about? I just said my friends are staying at my apartment nothing about any law?
Ans secondly what do happy guests do? Tell there daughters and sons and friends , God this isnt rocket science
No it's not rocket science but you seem confused as who owns your apartment / your friends apartment so I'll not bother explaining myself.....
lancslad
23-11-2012, 03:02
phew.made it to the end of this thread.
n im still non the wiser.
golf birdie
23-11-2012, 10:57
No it's not rocket science but you seem confused as who owns your apartment / your friends apartment so I'll not bother explaining myself.....
maybe the reason its not in the law is it would be impossible to enforce it. Say I had family over staying with me and I had to go back to the UK at short notice. Should I evict them before I go? I would love to see the face of the judge if a case invovling a family member stayiing in a private apartment ever came before them.
junglejim
23-11-2012, 11:33
In relation to Family and Friends and 1995 law, I have a copy of correspondence from a Snr. Manuel Medina Ortega from 1998 - he was a Spanish MEP and President of Spanish Socialist Delegation in Brussels .
His response on F&F was :-
" The regulation relating to leasing of properties for tourist purposes are only applicable to the case where an owner offers it at the open market for tourists,through travel agencies or Tour Operators.If the apartment is privately leased to members of the family and friends ,there is no room for intervention by administrative authorities"
canary boy
23-11-2012, 16:30
Right I said the people staying at my friends property are friends!! Forget any law! I just let them stay there! No fees No nothing just friends staying over If they want to give a little something to the owners for letting them stay then that's fine
I feel a deja-vu moment coming on.
*Phones uncle Pepé* ...:D :wink:
I feel a groundhog day comming on!
Lol..........Coronation Street's got nothing on this thread...:lol:
So instead of the Portuguese model of €400.00 it has been suggested a higher rate of €1000.00! Those of you with 40+ weeks could work this but with fewer weeks, after deducting 24.75% non resident tax and 7% igic, it would hardly be worth it.
You would get a better return having a sole agent.
:cheeky:
The problem with the sole agent on our complex is not financial (despite the fact that he pays a very low amount) it is the restrictions he puts in place. An owner can only use their own apartment for four weeks a year (to be taken in either May/June, October/November) and the owner's furniture and ornaments etc must be put into storage so that the agent can make all his apartments uniform. It's just not workable for most people!
junglejim
27-11-2012, 11:12
So instead of the Portuguese model of €400.00 it has been suggested a higher rate of €1000.00! Those of you with 40+ weeks could work this but with fewer weeks, after deducting 24.75% non resident tax and 7% igic, it would hardly be worth it.
You would get a better return having a sole agent.
:cheeky:
Actually you would be better doing it illegally and saving up for the fine !:eyebrows:
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So instead of the Portuguese model of €400.00 it has been suggested a higher rate of €1000.00! Those of you with 40+ weeks could work this but with fewer weeks, after deducting 24.75% non resident tax and 7% igic, it would hardly be worth it.
You would get a better return having a sole agent.
:cheeky:
Actually you would be better doing it illegally and saving up for the fine !:eyebrows:
I would like to hear from any "friends" in terrazas Del Faro in particular but any others in PM who are still allowing "friends" to use their apartments. A PM would be most welcome
Actually you would be better doing it illegally and saving up for the fine !:eyebrows:
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Actually you would be better doing it illegally and saving up for the fine !:eyebrows:
clearly the 1000 euro per year permit would be fine for a forty week per year renter. That level of renting would be easily achieved with an internet add on a popular site. Before we started with the internet, quite late on in our 9 year renting history, we stopped using local paper ads. These were realitvely expensive and nothing near as good for filling the place up. We had paid out anything like £ 1500 per year to local papers, and ended up with maybe 73 weeks rented across two apartments. When we started with the internet ads it cost only £200 per year for a two unit ad, and our record year before the crackdown saw us sell 93 weeks rented with the two apartments.
For us the 1000 euro permit to be legal every year would be fine. We dont need or ever needed a sole agent overlord to hold our hands and push up the cost to the customer. Neither does the canarian economy.
clearly the 1000 euro per year permit would be fine for a forty week per year renter. That level of renting would be easily achieved with an internet add on a popular site. Before we started with the internet, quite late on in our 9 year renting history, we stopped using local paper ads. These were realitvely expensive and nothing near as good for filling the place up. We had paid out anything like £ 1500 per year to local papers, and ended up with maybe 73 weeks rented across two apartments. When we started with the internet ads it cost only £200 per year for a two unit ad, and our record year before the crackdown saw us sell 93 weeks rented with the two apartments.
For us the 1000 euro permit to be legal every year would be fine. We dont need or ever needed a sole agent overlord to hold our hands and push up the cost to the customer. Neither does the canarian economy.
93 weeks!!!! No wonder you want to continue and the tax man must have been delighted.Not so sure about the neighbours who bought on a residential complex.93 lots of holidaymakers must have been fun.
93 weeks!!!! No wonder you want to continue and the tax man must have been delighted.Not so sure about the neighbours who bought on a residential complex.93 lots of holidaymakers must have been fun.
I have often posted about my customers, good and bad. Yes, we have had some wild ones at times, the worst example being some middle aged people we knew who had a right ding dong some years ago. Most clients return every year in winter, and they are firm friends with residents. our complex is 75% rented, 15% swallow owners and 10% true residents. Nobody minds the tourists , the majority owners depend on them. The big renting years I mention from the internet ads are extra summer rents that we cant bring to the islands now sadly. Its these lost clients that is damaging the canarian economy so much. Its not just my finances that are suffering, more importantley its the canarian people who are the losers, its their jobs and mortgages that these lost customers would provide for. Many renters like us would pay an annual permit fee, its the present system that stops us contributing. The canarian economy needs our permit fees and our customers spending.
seanocelt
30-11-2012, 04:04
And "footfall". ..........................
I have often posted about my customers, good and bad. Yes, we have had some wild ones at times, the worst example being some middle aged people we knew who had a right ding dong some years ago. Most clients return every year in winter, and they are firm friends with residents. our complex is 75% rented, 15% swallow owners and 10% true residents. Nobody minds the tourists , the majority owners depend on them. The big renting years I mention from the internet ads are extra summer rents that we cant bring to the islands now sadly. Its these lost clients that is damaging the canarian economy so much. Its not just my finances that are suffering, more importantley its the canarian people who are the losers, its their jobs and mortgages that these lost customers would provide for. Many renters like us would pay an annual permit fee, its the present system that stops us contributing. The canarian economy needs our permit fees and our customers spending.
Or you could club together the 75% of owners and gain a legal license under the unity of exploitation law.......
But I realize you hate your face too much to spare your nose
Or you could club together the 75% of owners and gain a legal license under the unity of exploitation law.......
But I realize you hate your face too much to spare your nose
at the end of the day we never needed a sole agent overlord, and neither does the canarian economy and people. we have all rented without such an unnecesary overlord for many years, we dont want an overlord like that to have his his cut and put up the prices to the customers.
our customer should be able to book a holiday as cheaply as say , portugal, where they dont have sole agent overlords. eu market harmony laws should see that customers are not exploited , europe wide.
But you know the law says you have to have one so why not allow yourselves to be legal instead of leaving yourselves open to fines and losing money .
The longer you stand your ground the worse the entire Canarian economy will be, not to mention all those people out of work because you've stopped letting.... Footfall is down and los cristianos needs you!
angiebabes
01-12-2012, 09:35
I think I read on here that there is a possibility that if owners in residential apartment blocks are caught illegally renting out their apartments then the community as a whole may be fined?? Is this a fact or a rumour?.?
Doubt that unless the community was advertising the holiday rentals, don't forget the community is every owner, why should one get fined because another is renting out illegally??
angiebabes
01-12-2012, 19:25
Doubt that unless the community was advertising the holiday rentals, don't forget the community is every owner, why should one get fined because another is renting out illegally??
Quite agree, but read somewhere that this could well happen on the grounds that members of the community would be aware that this was happening and therefore the administrator/president/vice president should have stopped it ???
Tom & Sharon
01-12-2012, 19:33
clearly the 1000 euro per year permit would be fine for a forty week per year renter. That level of renting would be easily achieved with an internet add on a popular site. Before we started with the internet, quite late on in our 9 year renting history, we stopped using local paper ads. These were realitvely expensive and nothing near as good for filling the place up. We had paid out anything like £ 1500 per year to local papers, and ended up with maybe 73 weeks rented across two apartments. When we started with the internet ads it cost only £200 per year for a two unit ad, and our record year before the crackdown saw us sell 93 weeks rented with the two apartments.
For us the 1000 euro permit to be legal every year would be fine. We dont need or ever needed a sole agent overlord to hold our hands and push up the cost to the customer. Neither does the canarian economy.
Of course all this illegal renting out was purely to 'cover our costs' which is what you have endlessly spouted since you started on this thread and you expect us to believe this sh1t!!!!!
Pull the other one mate it's got bells on!!!
Tom :tiphat:
Of course all this illegal renting out was purely to 'cover our costs' which is what you have endlessly spouted since you started on this thread and you expect us to believe this sh1t!!!!!
Pull the other one mate it's got bells on!!!
Tom :tiphat:
They always trip themselves up in the end.If you ever have a couple of free days,have a look at Nelsons posts on this thread from the beginning I reckon they would make a comedy script.(Unless you live next door to one of their illegal lets).
Nelson, I just hope the illegal letting inspectors read this and pay you a visit
just covering costs of the mortgage, car, boat, champagne and the other luxuries he has been able to get whilst illegally holiday renting.
nice one pal
x
Please.......
What is the point in the forum admin going to the trouble of putting a cheerful Christmas theme on whilst behind the scenes you guys feel the need to keep kicking the same one person in the teeth.
This is supposed to be the season of goodwill. Please give the man a break. :respect:
Tom & Sharon
02-12-2012, 15:55
Happy Christmas and a less prosperous new year Nelson
Love T&S :tiphat:
Please.......
What is the point in the forum admin going to the trouble of putting a cheerful Christmas theme on whilst behind the scenes you guys feel the need to keep kicking the same one person in the teeth.
This is supposed to be the season of goodwill. Please give the man a break. :respect:
the fact is we have gone through the costs way back on this thread, by the time you pay all your costs out of that number of weeks rented , at the prices we charge, well there is no profit. I know I have itemised the overheads long ago to show this point, mortgages, utilities, cleaning etc etc.
People on here have short memories. The issue is not about anyone making profit or losing money anyway, its about continuing to attract tourists to the resorts as has been the case for so many years, and not damaging the canarian economy, and putting people out of work this christmas and in peril of losing their homes.
All that is needed is for a sensible system to charge an annual permit to private renters, like in portugal. That way the private renters pay their fair share of tax to the canaries, as well as bringing tourists to the islands as they always have done.
Nelson you miss one important point the Canarian Government does not wish you to let residential properties, in fact as you well know it is illegal. Please respect their laws. Many people who live on residential properties like us are totally fed up with the noise and disruption caused by illegal renters, showing no respect for residents and totally ignoring community rules.
Nelson you miss one important point the Canarian Government does not wish you to let residential properties, in fact as you well know it is illegal. Please respect their laws. Many people who live on residential properties like us are totally fed up with the noise and disruption caused by illegal renters, showing no respect for residents and totally ignoring community rules.
its the canarian govt that are missing the point, tourists make pay days , make mortgages and put the food on the table.
If you dont like living with tourists, why are you living in a busy tourist zone on an island that lives or dies by tourism? Even if no tourists ever stay in your complex, you are going to encounter many just outside.
Not all tourists are noisy and disrespectful either.
surely Nelson is entitled to put forwards his point of view just because it may be illegal does not mean he has to keep his mouth shut one has to remember that what is illegal today might be legal tomorrow
if you feel strongly about these matters get on the communidad for your complex and press for the law to be upheld if enough people push the authorities eventually this will happen
as someone who when in tenerife stays in a normal apartment building I have no strong feelings either way
seanocelt
02-12-2012, 19:29
I have strong feelings about it. I pay high rent to be on a residential complex, and lose sleep as i work late, as tourists above make a racket at all hours. Not that i wouldnt too if on hols, but the owners of the apartment above know the law. I would not have taken on the lease if i had known they were going to start it. Action being taken., By me.
junglejim
02-12-2012, 19:39
Martin with respect , the Canarian Government allow you to rent long term on a residential property just not Touristically- the Canarian Government were quite happy to allow the building of all types of property knowing fine well there would be a surfeit of accommodation- as long as they got the taxes and backhanders - that's why so many officials have been prosecuted or jailed in Spain
Some of the biggest culprits are in the Ashotel group, Reveron for one Konrad and the Vice President of Turismode la Puente .
http://www.ashotel.es/es/apartados/quienessomos/consejodirectivo
http://www.residentecanario.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1953&Itemid=165
Red Devil
02-12-2012, 19:48
I have strong feelings about it. I pay high rent to be on a residential complex, and lose sleep as i work late, as tourists above make a racket at all hours. Not that i wouldnt too if on hols, but the owners of the apartment above know the law. I would not have taken on the lease if i had known they were going to start it. Action being taken., By me.
Isn't it El Mirador you rent on, the one bang in the middle of tourist area, with around 30 bars/restaurants around its perimeter, guessing that around 90% of its owners having originally bought to rent out to tourists and you are indignant it seems to have holidaymakers there?? You may well be correct in law but come on, if I needed my sleep daytime I would have thought twice about renting on there.
seanocelt
02-12-2012, 20:30
Isn't it El Mirador you rent on, the one bang in the middle of tourist area, with around 30 bars/restaurants around its perimeter, guessing that around 90% of its owners having originally bought to rent out to tourists and you are indignant it seems to have holidaymakers there?? You may well be correct in law but come on, if I needed my sleep daytime I would have thought twice about renting on there.
The apartment above has been residential since i moved in. Now, AFTER all the fines and commotion, they have started letting it! Im not an idiot, although you are trying to make me out to be one, i would not have stayed on if it was tourist let before. Thanks for your concern though!
The apartment above has been resisdential since i moved in. Now, AFTER all the fines and commotion, they have started letting it! Im not an idiot, although you are trying to make me out to be one, i would not have stayed on if it was tourist let before. Thanks for your concern though!
seancelt you need to complain to your letting agents. In the days of the internet ads the best sites had loads of el mirador ads. The estate agents promoted it as with letting potential , it remains a good example of a very recent complex , built and sold with tourists in mind.
Not wanting to sound sarcastic, but to my mind you could not have picked a more tourist focused complex to live on.
seanocelt
03-12-2012, 03:22
Some really thick people post on forums eh? MY AGENT? They make a quid or 2 on long let rentals, nowt to do with them what the neighbours do. Not their problem, why cant you see that?
Tourist focussed complex? My neighbours are (in my block), Spanish RESIDENTS, Italian RESIDENTS, and English RESIDENTS. The one up from it it is Cuban owned and part year used, , then a Scottish RESIDENT, and an English RESIDENT. Some of you just have no idea what its like here year round, just form opinions of your annual "peek".
Tom & Sharon
03-12-2012, 11:13
the fact is we have gone through the costs way back on this thread, by the time you pay all your costs out of that number of weeks rented , at the prices we charge, well there is no profit. I know I have itemised the overheads long ago to show this point, mortgages, utilities, cleaning etc etc.
People on here have short memories. The issue is not about anyone making profit or losing money anyway, its about continuing to attract tourists to the resorts as has been the case for so many years, and not damaging the canarian economy, and putting people out of work this christmas and in peril of losing their homes.
All that is needed is for a sensible system to charge an annual permit to private renters, like in portugal. That way the private renters pay their fair share of tax to the canaries, as well as bringing tourists to the islands as they always have done.
Oh right I understand now :doh: , what you actually mean is that when everybody else has finished paying your mortgages and bills on your pied a terres in Tenerife, there is no disposable income left over for you to spend in the local bars and restaurants.
You really are the local philanthropist and i just thought you were in it for the money and bugger everyone else ;)
Love, peace, respect, merry Christmas and a happy new year. :headbang:
Tom :tiphat:
lancslad
03-12-2012, 14:04
Invest in Tenerife have a studio for sale on the Chipeque complex in Los Cristianos in the South of Tenerife.
This small complex situated on the hillside above Los Cristianos, near the Hotel Paradise Park. Chipeque was once a tourist resort however has now become a residential complex.
All the apartments surround a large swimming pool, which has a great sunbathing terraced area. There is a snack bar, games area and also a laundry facility on site.
This studio apartment has a 30 m2 interior and has a terrace of 16 m2. The studio is situated on the ground floor beside the pool, facing south and has the benefit of the sun all day long on the terrace. The studio is sold furnished making the property is very easy to rent out.
A great investment opportunity.
That add was taken from "rightmove"
how does it become residential from tourist????
junglejim
03-12-2012, 14:23
Lancslad - if the previous sole agent or Hotel company ceased trading or gave up the licence , it can revert to being a Residential complex as the licence lapses - it may be possible to revive a dormant Touristic licence but it isn´t easy !
This has been discussed on thread before!
lancslad
03-12-2012, 14:42
Missed that but jim:wink:
However the company selling the property are giving the wrong advise.
The studio is sold furnished making the property is very easy to rent out.
A great investment opportunity.
BUYER BEWARE
Missed that but jim:wink:
However the company selling the property are giving the wrong advise.
The studio is sold furnished making the property is very easy to rent out.
A great investment opportunity.
BUYER BEWARE
I can't see it saying anything about holiday rentals to tourists, just very easy to rent out.
duncan-6
16-12-2012, 20:06
Good Evening everybody,
I have just joined the forum, so hello for the first time.
We have stayed in Tenerife many times, and have decided we want to buy an apartment, I dont want to mention any names etc, but the property we are after is on a resedential (dormant touristic) complex, with many illegal lettings going on as we speak.(less than 3 months and not family/friends)
Nevertheless, we like it very much, we wouldn't let to anybody.
If a majority of owners wanted to have this touristic license reinstated, does it require a 51% or 100% of all owners to vote in favour, before they apply? and if successfull will all bookings go through a sole registered agent?
And finally,(I should of asked this first), quite simply, is this a good time to buy, or should I wait longer until all this illegal lettings business is sorted? Many Thanks. fantastic forum btw.
If you want a no BS reply Duncan, feel free to drop in to our office when you´re over or send me an email if you like.
So far as a good time to buy, I´d wait for the dust to settle in January ans see what the consensus is. It really depends on what you want to do.
Unfortunately on this thread there are way too many negative opinions from people who really seem to begrudge those who can afford an apartment from profiting from letting it out - an air of schadenfreude lingers too heavy for me too bother with it anymore.
There is some very good info on here but it is drowned out by garbage.
Janet ********* blog is a very good place to do some research:
Try this link - first result (https://www.google.com/search?q=janet+********&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&sugexp=les%3Beqn%2Ccconf%3D1.2%2Cmin_length%3D2%2C rate_low%3D0.035%2Crate_high%3D0.035%2Csecond_pass %3Dfalse%2Cnum_suggestions%3D2%2Cignore_bad_origqu ery%3Dtrue%2Conetoken%3Dfalse&gs_nf=3&gs_rn=0&gs_ri=serp&cp=7&tok=l90YgcLS5S8A9BV5hK7NEA&pq=janet%20********&gs_id=k&xhr=t&q=janet+********&pf=p&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=cN0&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&oq=janet+********&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.ZG4&fp=8987ce5915ab33a3&bpcl=39967673&biw=1280&bih=802)
Good Evening everybody,
I have just joined the forum, so hello for the first time.
We have stayed in Tenerife many times, and have decided we want to buy an apartment, I dont want to mention any names etc, but the property we are after is on a resedential (dormant touristic) complex, with many illegal lettings going on as we speak.(less than 3 months and not family/friends)
Nevertheless, we like it very much, we wouldn't let to anybody.
If a majority of owners wanted to have this touristic license reinstated, does it require a 51% or 100% of all owners to vote in favour, before they apply? and if successfull will all bookings go through a sole registered agent?
And finally,(I should of asked this first), quite simply, is this a good time to buy, or should I wait longer until all this illegal lettings business is sorted? Many Thanks. fantastic forum btw.
You'll find the answers to your questions in this thread but just thought I'd quickly point out that you're on the track only the owners don't "take a vote" perse.... The 50%+1 has to be built from owners who sign up with a sole agent.
duncan-6
16-12-2012, 20:59
CIM, thanks for that, will be over in march, hope things are a bit clearer by then, can I not have a no BS reply on here? just say it as it is. Cheers.
CIM, thanks for that, will be over in march, hope things are a bit clearer by then, can I not have a no BS reply on here? just say it as it is. Cheers.
My no BS reply would be ;
If you want to let your apartment do not by on a residential complex or a dormant touristic.
If you read through some of this thread there are already owners on dormant touristic complexes who refuse to even try to work within the law (getting 50%+1), so buying on a similar complex and thinking you can persuade 100+ people to do what you want is a non starter.
Look at tourist registered complexes only of you plan to let.
duncan-6
18-12-2012, 15:40
LOADED, thanks for that, as I said in my post, we are not going to let to anybody.
We have recently returned from staying on a residential (dormant touristic) complex, and very nice and quiet it was too, but I know that many owners on there would move heaven and earth to get a licence back, obviously fearing the "knock on the door" or the official letter in the post. So in your opinion, if a dormant touristic was to get its licence ressurected, how would that effect them on the complex who do not want to let?
Cheers.
LOADED, thanks for that, as I said in my post, we are not going to let to anybody.
We have recently returned from staying on a residential (dormant touristic) complex, and very nice and quiet it was too, but I know that many owners on there would move heaven and earth to get a licence back, obviously fearing the "knock on the door" or the official letter in the post. So in your opinion, if a dormant touristic was to get its licence ressurected, how would that effect them on the complex who do not want to let?
Cheers.
Ok I see your point of view now.
If the license is resurrected The effects on non letting owners would be the same as those on a tourist complex now , ie: noise, constantly changing neighbours....
If this concerns you then If I were you I'd buy on a non dormant site - ie always has been residential always will be (legally) - this way you will (theoretically) never have to suffer from the potential nuisances that tourist lettings can bring.
Hope this helps
Jimmyhow
19-12-2012, 11:00
Some really thick people post on forums eh? MY AGENT? They make a quid or 2 on long let rentals, nowt to do with them what the neighbours do. Not their problem, why cant you see that?
Tourist focussed complex? My neighbours are (in my block), Spanish RESIDENTS, Italian RESIDENTS, and English RESIDENTS. The one up from it it is Cuban owned and part year used, , then a Scottish RESIDENT, and an English RESIDENT. Some of you just have no idea what its like here year round, just form opinions of your annual "peek".
Haven't posted for a while but I've just returned from a well earned 2 week break in our apartment on the now infamous El Mirador RESIDENTIAL complex.
My neighbours, either on the same block or opposite, include a strange Danish lady who only comes to life at night and has her TV blaring out at 4 in the morning, a Welsh couple who are always drunk and arguing long into the night, a bar owner who must have the untidiest garden area ever with beer towels etc. strewn all over it and numerous Spanish/Italian residents whose dogs bark at all hours of the day or night. All long term tenants.
Give me tourists anyday!
Maybe stay on a tourist complex next time then?????
Just re-read your post - maybe buy on a tourist complex instead???
duncan-6
19-12-2012, 14:38
You'll find the answers to your questions in this thread but just thought I'd quickly point out that you're on the track only the owners don't "take a vote" perse.... The 50%+1 has to be built from owners who sign up with a sole agent.
LOADED, can I just clarify please,....If a residential (dormant touristic) complex has 100 owners, it needs 51 of those owners to register with 1 sole agent only, and they can then apply to have that licence ressurrected?
If then these 51 owners were successfull, and the complex was re-instated as a touristic complex, how would this effect those who voted against? thanks.
delderek
19-12-2012, 15:23
And according to J A's site, Illegal letting is being discussed in Parliament with a view to raise the offence to Most serious, with horrendous fines.
seanocelt
19-12-2012, 18:56
Haven't posted for a while but I've just returned from a well earned 2 week break in our apartment on the now infamous El Mirador RESIDENTIAL complex.
My neighbours, either on the same block or opposite, include a strange Danish lady who only comes to life at night and has her TV blaring out at 4 in the morning, a Welsh couple who are always drunk and arguing long into the night, a bar owner who must have the untidiest garden area ever with beer towels etc. strewn all over it and numerous Spanish/Italian residents whose dogs bark at all hours of the day or night. All long term tenants.
Give me tourists anyday!
Ha Ha, you do have a point there!
Just like to point out here, did anyone else read the recent thread about the transition from Franco to democracy ?, it struck me that I'd heard some of it before on this thread !
Yes from none other than our man Nelson.
He told you so ! And without the benefit of a university degree in the subject. All hail Nelson!!!!!!!!!!
LOADED, can I just clarify please,....If a residential (dormant touristic) complex has 100 owners, it needs 51 of those owners to register with 1 sole agent only, and they can then apply to have that licence ressurrected?
If then these 51 owners were successfull, and the complex was re-instated as a touristic complex, how would this effect those who voted against? thanks.
No one votes - not in favour or against , it's not a vote.
The 50%+1 are not votes in favour, they are the amount of owners who have signed up to the sole agent.
The ones who don't sign up are the ones who can't let.
junglejim
19-12-2012, 23:13
Loaded I was under the impression that a 100% vote at an EGM was required to agree to resurrect a dormant licence then 50%+1 of owners had to sign up with Sole agent ?
This may be altered depending on present proposals being considered by Cabildo at present .
And according to J A's site, Illegal letting is being discussed in Parliament with a view to raise the offence to Most serious, with horrendous fines.
The draft law is actually trying to make it a serious offense (30,000-300,000) to NOT let your property to tourists if on a tourist complex!
Scary!
Loaded I was under the impression that a 100% vote at an EGM was required to agree to resurrect a dormant licence then 50%+1 of owners had to sign up with Sole agent ?
This may be altered depending on present proposals being considered by Cabildo at present .
Nope, you just need 50%+1 to sign up to a sole agent who can then register the complex again.
Unless the complex has been dormant for so long that the cabildo have closed it , then I think you need more than 50%+1... Might then be 100 I forget .
And according to J A's site, Illegal letting is being discussed in Parliament with a view to raise the offence to Most serious, with horrendous fines.
thats an incredible move if that is happening. it makes the point about the cultural differences in all this mess and shows exactly how spain is actually a nation in transition between dictatorship and democracy. Our lawyer said from the beginning that as normal people we should not have been fined at the serious level, the lower level was the correct band. He said that all his lawyer colleagues agreed with that, clearly us brits were amazed at these massive fines, we could see no comparison in our home country.
Let us not forget the new law enforcing tourist letting and removing residents from the dormant touristics, think about that the poster on here who is thinking about buying touristic.
Lawyers are trying to reasure people that such a move would be politically impossible, but they are just embarrased and amazed themselves that they are living in this type of regime. This is reality , a government acting on behalf of a business group, not in the best interest of the whole population.
A situation that existed in spain from 1939 until 1975.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
just had a look at the JA site report about the increase in fine to very serious . The fine is actually for being a resident and living on a touristic complex. The post is from a lawyer and he states that this is word for word correct, not an interpretation.
Not sure if the fine level is going to moved up to very serious for illegal letting on residentials ? but of course the dormant touristics will not be worried about fines any more as they will be forced into the hands of sole agents.
The people who now need to worry most are the residents in dormant toristic sites, they need to consider these gigantic fines should they decide to flout the law and continue to live residentially in touristic complex's.
I actually agree with you that it's a tad mental to be planning to fine people for living in their own property if that's what is meant by the proposed law.
I actually hope that part is not passed as it will cause a lot of ill feeling in complexes that are a mix of residential and touristic .
Isn't the UK just the same though?
You can't live in a hotel or caravan site permanently etc etc ?
Isn't the UK just the same though?
You can't live in a hotel or caravan site permanently etc etc ?
You can live in a hotel if you can afford to and if not live in a caravan site........ :D
So you could live in a Hotel in the UK 52 weeks a year and have that as your permanent residency?
junglejim
20-12-2012, 09:59
Worthing and the South Coast Hotels are full of the Rich Old Codgers!
Is you could live in a Hotel in the UK 52 weeks a year and have that as your permanent residency?don't know about hotels? but my parents lived on a permanent residential park home site for 2 years, because it was residential they are allowed to live there all 12 months of the year , but you can only live on a lesure park site for 10 months of the year as they have to close for 2 months:)
So you could live in a Hotel in the UK 52 weeks a year and have that as your permanent residency?
Yes. Some real rich folk live on a cruise ship all year round. Perfect balance, life of luxury and see the World. Off to check my lottery numbers. .... :D
Maybe another option for nelson sure she'd love that, Portugal, a hotel, illegal apartment in Tenerife, a cruise ship or a caravan site.
The list is nearly endless...
duncan-6
20-12-2012, 11:01
Maybe another option for nelson sure she'd love that, Portugal, a hotel, illegal apartment in Tenerife, a cruise ship or a caravan site.
The list is nearly endless...
She is a he from the biggest county in england.
mickfinn
20-12-2012, 11:49
We now have a very interesting new slant on the illegal letting law, I know quite a number
of people who have lived for years and years on touristic sites who fully agreed with the letting law and also fully supported the Sole letting agency system. They also spent thousands
renovating their apartments,which if taken over by the sole agent will be ripped out.
I would like just one of them now to contact the Forum and explain if they still agree with the illegal letting law when there is a chance now that they may be made homeless.
golf birdie
20-12-2012, 12:16
thats the whole point,sticking to the law as it is written, if it was built for tourists thats who should be there, if it was for residents thats who should be there. Mix with something that was not broken and you end up with a mess. Only in Spain:lol:
I would like just one of them now to contact the Forum and explain if they still agree with the illegal letting law when there is a chance now that they may be made homeless.
Where does it say that mickfinn? It could easily mean no long lets on touristic complexes for residents unless you are the home owner.
is there a definition yet?
Then it's just speculation at the moment.
just a general point about similar restrictions in the uk. The near year round occupancy of some caravan sites is for compliance with planning laws, the sites got planning as lesiure parks, so they cant be occupied year round. There are many caravan parks with year round residential permission also.
some of the limited occupancy sites in the uk have caused contraversey when owners have carried on regardless and settled in for the full 52 weeks. It becomes a breach of planning permission issue. I am sure that there is no legal problem in the uk if a hotel building were to be sold off and then occupied by either residential occupiers or rented out to tourists.
Also in the case of the caravan residents who may be in illegal occupancy for the full year, rather than observing the closure period, the authorities in the uk are not imposing £250,000 fines for the offence.
Only in spain, europes last fascist dictatorship, the only fascist dictatorship to outlive WW2, can such extreme government action be reality.
A policy imposed by a so called democratic government, to help protect a sector of private businessmen, against the natural free market and best common interest of the entire population.
Quite simply the ways of Franco, here today in 2012.
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
Where does it say that mickfinn? It could easily mean no long lets on touristic complexes for residents unless you are the home owner.
is there a definition yet?
Then it's just speculation at the moment.
a typical doubting Thomas. The new law is stated quite clearly, and was many months ago. The point the govt is making is that the residential occupancy of the touristic sites means that, the residential renters are taking up tourists illegally, that might find a bed in a touristic site , if the residents were not living in those sites. Its just a simple matter of ethnic cleansing, evict all the residents from touristic sites and so get the tourists out of residential sites. If any residents continue to live residentially in a touristic site , the civilsed answer, well give em a 300,000 euro fine.
As I have said before, the truth and reality is so enormously horrible , it is quite understandable that people should just declare it a ridiculous notion, too daft and extreme to be real. Just like the jews in the ghettos of europe in the nazi years. things were bad in the ghetto , but when the rumours came back about what was really happening at the end of the line when the resettlement trains unloaded their passengers, well many of the jews declared the rumours nonsense. It was all too terrible to believe.
people start believing, these laws are the reality.
A policy imposed by a so called democratic government, to help protect a sector of private businessmen, against the natural free market and best common interest of the entire population.
Quite simply the ways of Franco, here today in 2012.[/QUOTE]
Entire population!! Who's common interest? not most owner who own on residential complex and live in Tenerife. What right have you to speak for the entire population, what a prat.
you do talk some ******** nelson
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
just a general point about similar restrictions in the uk. The near year round occupancy of some caravan sites is for compliance with planning laws, the sites got planning as lesiure parks, so they cant be occupied year round. There are many caravan parks with year round residential permission also.
some of the limited occupancy sites in the uk have caused contraversey when owners have carried on regardless and settled in for the full 52 weeks. It becomes a breach of planning permission issue. I am sure that there is no legal problem in the uk if a hotel building were to be sold off and then occupied by either residential occupiers or rented out to tourists.
Also in the case of the caravan residents who may be in illegal occupancy for the full year, rather than observing the closure period, the authorities in the uk are not imposing £250,000 fines for the offence.
So you can quite understand when your own country imposes different laws but cause you own in Tenerife you want to just impose your own way with no regard for the law here. Get over it nelson it's not going to change for you.
Remember this is just speculation and interpretation of a draught law.... Nothing set it stone yet folks
junglejim
20-12-2012, 23:22
Ah Nelson - Godwin's Law strikes again!!
As Loaded says , there is no new law = only consultations !
So you could live in a Hotel in the UK 52 weeks a year and have that as your permanent residency?
I live in a hotel 52 weeks a year - it's great, apart from the pesky guests who spoil my peace and quiet..
It never did Norman Bates any harm....:laugh:
bonitatime
21-12-2012, 08:39
The law which Nelson claims to be fact is not yet passed and yet again I would like to complain about the comparison with genocide
junglejim
21-12-2012, 08:43
The law which Nelson claims to be fact is not yet passed and yet again I would like to complain about the comparison with genocide
Godwin's Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Reductio ad Hitlerum attempts to refute a view because it has been held by Hitler.[4] The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses, irrespective of whether it is appropriate. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact
there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.
This is how it started (http://old.tenerifeforum.com/showthread.php?t=67355&p=229143&viewfull=1#post229143)
Ecky Thump
21-12-2012, 09:43
there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.
Thread closed!!:c2::c2:
Summing up then ... !!
Nelson, you clearly have strong views, but the reality is that you chose to buy an apartment in Tenerife, a province of Spain, a country which you clearly have issues with.
Nobody asked you to do this, and certainly nobody asked you to go ahead and buy a second apartment off the back of the money you were pocketing from the first and for some time, by your own admission, you were doing very nicely thank you despite you operating your little enterprise outside of and against the law of the country.
Now that they have caught up with you you are feeling bitter. Understandable perhaps, but expressing your wrath in the way you appear to now be doing will win you little sympathy and very few friends.
There is no new law containing your doom and gloom scenario, there are some proposals being discussed in the Canarian Parliament, some aspects of which appear to be potentially controversial as is very often the case when Governments need to take action to secure the future of aspects of the land they govern.
What will be will be, but in the meantime the best thing you can do is to cut your losses, sell up quickly and reinvest in another country which allows you to do what you want to do, but do your homework first?
here's a thought though........ we know how hard it is to prove that someone is letting their apartment illegally on a tourist complex - if this law was passed it would be a lot easier to prove that someone IS NOT letting legally...........
Have a close look at my Avatar!
It's a Christmas card from Cabildo.
without seeking to labour the point, to my mind the govt have stated their position in their new draft law quite clearly, banning illegal residenting etc, 300,000 euro fines if you contravene. To my mind this is the action of an extremist, authoritarian regime. I consider that these proposals are against the wide interest of the canarian population.
I disagree with the proposals, and I think that the people in govt who are debating this nonsense are a buuch of corrupt bandits. That does not mean that I dislike the rest of the spanish population or hate their beautiful country. Indeed I would also disagree and condem the govt of zimbabwe and north korea also, and at the same time not hold the citizens of those countries responsible for injustices and crimes which are commited, in their name by these corrupt governments.
At the end of the day its just a small group of individuals in santa cruz who are running this mad scheme.
I cant see why people want to be relaxed just because the law is only in a discussion stage. Why should we all stay calm when the govt is debating such an incredible and extreme measure? Is that not the time to start taking notice?
Like many other people who have looked at this thread over the past year,Iam sick and tired at looking at posts from Mrs Nelson(she must be female)Due to this thread me and many others have decided not to visit Tenerife South this year or perhaps any other year.This year alone I have saved £6,000 by not coming on holiday to Tenerife and in doing so I have found better places to holiday here in the UK and abroad.
I now find that I keep a close watch on who I hire my apartments with and Mrs Nelson does not fit into my requirements.I had many good times in Tenerife,sadly I will not be coming back.I now find that mainland Spain as well as Majorca/Minorca gives me all that I require and at a lesser cost.I wish all the best to the people of The Canary Islands and would hope that Mrs Nelson does in fact emigrate to perhaps the swamps of Texas and gives a good meal to some crock,have a nice day and god bless.
So let me get this straight.
You've stopped coming to Tenerife because of this thread?..:idea:
And not just you, many others as well?...:lol:
Enjoy your 6 grand.....
junglejim
22-12-2012, 09:46
LaPalma for a thread that has nearly half a million views ( of various opinions ) I think you are being a bit sore on one particular poster ( that's what ignore button is for !) .
As for your alternative destinations ,that is your choice and right as to where to spend your cash ,though I am a bit sceptical that some of these places offer a better venue in the winter or even Autumn !
The issues on letting in the Canaries have been compromised by the Canarian Government and their corruption and ossified self=interest and failure to communicate with all in the Tourist industry, not just Ashotel!
To be pedantic a "Crock" is a cooking utensil or piece of ceramic, a crocodile is not an alligator (which you may find in Texas and Florida) and you may find one when on a cheap holiday near the Nile in Egypt , so be careful- Karma can be a bitch!
Altamira
22-12-2012, 12:25
It appears to me that much of the illegal rentals within a tourist complex has continued and that its management has gone underground. Many of the tourists are told to say (if asked by inspectors etc.) that they are not renting, but are simply friends of the owner. I assume the authorities are responding to this abuse of the law, by now proposing a new law which would appear to severely restrict the use by an owner. in other words the owner would need to hand over the control of the apartment to a sole agent, who would be free to rent it out, but only to tourists.
Unfortunately this has a potentially horrendous outcome for an owner who only uses their tourist apartment as their residence and who do not rent it out. If the apartment is not available for rent via the sole agent then the poor owner may be subjected to unreasonable and crippling fines. I think this awful scenario has been triggered by those who have objected to the illegal rental fines and who have continued to abuse the system.
Lets all hope that the authorities redraft the proposed laws, if not then all touristic apartment owners may need to get themselves organised to defend the freedom to have at least the residential use of their apartments.
without seeking to labour the point, to my mind the govt have stated their position in their new draft law quite clearly, banning illegal residenting etc, 300,000 euro fines if you contravene. To my mind this is the action of an extremist, authoritarian regime. I consider that these proposals are against the wide interest of the canarian population.
I disagree with the proposals, and I think that the people in govt who are debating this nonsense are a buuch of corrupt bandits. That does not mean that I dislike the rest of the spanish population or hate their beautiful country. Indeed I would also disagree and condem the govt of zimbabwe and north korea also, and at the same time not hold the citizens of those countries responsible for injustices and crimes which are commited, in their name by these corrupt governments.
At the end of the day its just a small group of individuals in santa cruz who are running this mad scheme.
I cant see why people want to be relaxed just because the law is only in a discussion stage. Why should we all stay calm when the govt is debating such an incredible and extreme measure? Is that not the time to start taking notice?
Basically the draft is saying;
Own on a tourist complex? Let it out or sell up
Fivepence
22-12-2012, 14:31
Like many other people who have looked at this thread over the past year,Iam sick and tired at looking at posts from Mrs Nelson(she must be female)Due to this thread me and many others have decided not to visit Tenerife South this year or perhaps any other year.This year alone I have saved £6,000 by not coming on holiday to Tenerife and in doing so I have found better places to holiday here in the UK and abroad.
I now find that I keep a close watch on who I hire my apartments with and Mrs Nelson does not fit into my requirements.I had many good times in Tenerife,sadly I will not be coming back.I now find that mainland Spain as well as Majorca/Minorca gives me all that I require and at a lesser cost.I wish all the best to the people of The Canary Islands and would hope that Mrs Nelson does in fact emigrate to perhaps the swamps of Texas and gives a good meal to some crock,have a nice day and god bless.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Whether you agree with Nelson or not, I think your post is a little harsh but it is your view and that is your right.
By the way, I'm sure Nelson is male. :male:
Basically the draft is saying;
Own on a tourist complex? Let it out or sell up
Or pay the fine!!
Or pay the fine!!
If the law is passed it won't be worth people paying the fine to live in their apartment / long let it..... These owners will have to sell
or just moan on this thread and do nothing else!!
Ecky Thump
22-12-2012, 23:05
By the way, I'm sure Nelson is male. :male:
Basic Information
About nelson
Gender:
Male
After people debating with someone for nearly two years, this might help to clear one point up!:p
junglejim
23-12-2012, 09:46
If the law is passed it won't be worth people paying the fine to live in their apartment / long let it..... These owners will have to sell
Or vote against the resurrection of a Dormant Licence and screw the whole complex ? If you need 100% to raise the dormant licence why should resident owners take the risk?
Or vote against the resurrection of a Dormant Licence and screw the whole complex ? If you need 100% to raise the dormant licence why should resident owners take the risk?
I was talking about tourist complexes with existing licenses ..... However , a meeting I went to a few months ago , there was concern over the "residentialization" of tourist zones..... So what price on that part of the new law not only referring to properties on licensed complexes, but also on "dormant" / "extinct" tourist complexes, with hotel companies tendering for the rights to each complex.
junglejim
23-12-2012, 11:18
So it's also possible that some people on Licenced Complexes who are either resident , or non rental or even those who rent but wish to eventually change their status from renter to non renter /resident could be forced to give up their property to the megalomaniac Ashotel group ?
That sound like a real plan ! Looks like the lawyers are going to have a super rich decade in front of them !
Altamira
23-12-2012, 12:31
I was talking about tourist complexes with existing licenses ..... However , a meeting I went to a few months ago , there was concern over the "residentialization" of tourist zones..... So what price on that part of the new law not only referring to properties on licensed complexes, but also on "dormant" / "extinct" tourist complexes, with hotel companies tendering for the rights to each complex.
It is clearly obvious that no reasonably minded person is happy with the wording contained within the new proposed draft law, this includes two separate comments from a Spanish lawyer "Efren" as seen within the Janet ******** blog, in particular when affecting touristic complexes and I think the proposed law may also affect those living within dormant tourist establishments. We should all learn the lessons from history and not fool ourselves into believing that owners would never loose the right to use their apartments for residential purposes. Lets hope that wisdom will prevail and that the draft is reworded, otherwise we may eventually loose our existing ownership rights.
It's all speculation but here's my 2 cents:
The tourist areas like Los Cristianos are a mix of:
1. residential and registered legal touristic (EG paloma beach, costamar, royal palm, cristian sur, tenerife sur, san marino, victoria court 1 & 2, comodorro)
2. legal touristic with no residents (EG oasis mango, apartamentos reveron, aguamar, paradise park, villa mandi)
3. residential and now illegal lapsed touristic (sur y sol, los angeles, achacay)
4. residential with some illegal, never registered, letting (el mirador, playa graciosa, visthermosa, parque tropical).
The buildings that appeal to tourists most will be the complexes near to the sea, you only need to read oasis mango and paradise parks reviews to realise this (lots of mentions of the hill).
However the complexes near the front are now a mix of 1 and 3 meaning there are thousands of beds in Los Cristianos that could potentially be used for their original intention - TOURISM.
But what do you do about them? There is no available space to build new tourist complexes as the prime land is already taken up by the complexes in example 1.
There are a two solutions;
1. scrap the moratorium and begin building new complexes at the edge of town even further up the hill from oasis mango where tourists already complain at the location - plus all of the legal complexes would complain at the unfair new competition (hence we have a moratorium).
or
2. Find a way of bring the lost beds in complexes from example 1 back into the touristic fold - while this would create more competition from complex to complex, they would all have more beds to sell.
By the looks of this draft law they have gone for option 2.........
I think we will soon find that this part of the law does not relate to owners living in their property, but it will apply to owners who are non resident and lock up their apartment and do not let, owners who are non resident and say they do not let but actaully do, and finally to owners who long let their property to residents.
On Paloma Beach the split is roughly this:
Legal letting: 65%
illegal letting: 7.5%
locked up not used apart from by owner: 10%
rented long term: 7.5%
lived in by owners: 10%
As you can see there is 25% of the complex that is neither lived in by the owner, or rented legally to tourists.
Thats almost 60 units (200 beds aprox) that are in prime location being wasted.
All of the other complexes in example 1 will have similar "lost beds". The complexes in example 3 will have even more (the whole complex practically).
The complexes in example3 would be given a sole agent (decided by bidding at government level) and brought up to standard.
As you can see this would mean many extra beds would be available to the letting agent of each complex, the extra beds would boost the local economy around each of the complexes as there would be more FOOTFALL.
junglejim
23-12-2012, 14:50
I'm a bit confused by your 2 cents worth - I was under the impression Los Cristianos was originally a working fishing village and port ?i
What you are saying is only Sole Agencies can have the right to control complexes in the prime positions as long as someone else puts up the money to buy the property ?
How parasitic is that?
If they want to be residential they have to stay out with the tourist zone ?
Fivepence
23-12-2012, 15:02
I'm a bit confused by your 2 cents worth - I was under the impression Los Cristianos was originally a working fishing village and port ?i
What you are saying is only Sole Agencies can have the right to control complexes in the prime positions as long as someone else puts up the money to buy the property ?
How parasitic is that?
If they want to be residential they have to stay out with the tourist zone ?
We got quite a lot for 2 cents though JJ. :lol:
I found your post interesting Loaded. :thanx:
I'm a bit confused by your 2 cents worth - I was under the impression Los Cristianos was originally a working fishing village and port ?i
What you are saying is only Sole Agencies can have the right to control complexes in the prime positions as long as someone else puts up the money to buy the property ?
How parasitic is that?
If they want to be residential they have to stay out with the tourist zone ?
We know that tourism is Los Cristianos (and Tenerife's ) primary source of revenue, in order for the local economy of Los Cris (and Tenerife) to survive and prosper the tourist industry needs to be protected and nurtured, it's not going to survive or prosper by continuing primarily as a fishing village.
And yes, sole agents are the ones GIVEN the rights to control the rentals of tourist properties on a complex. Owners are free to choose if they want to buy into the industry and make money off the back of the tourist industry - or they can choose to buy on a residential site (which can still be in a tourist zone just on a residential complex) if they choose not to.
It's hardly parasitic, unless you count a restaurant next to a tourist complex as parasitic also? What about a supermarket in a town? Parasitic too?
junglejim
23-12-2012, 20:53
I can choose where to shop and eat and most don't ask me to buy the produce and let them sell it back to me at rip off prices!
People who bought before 1995 law are not being given the choice of what they do with their investment !
Sole Agents need other people to invest their money so that they can continue as a Sole Agent-.many have used this law as a means of extortion from apartment owners giving poor returns .
but there is no need to move out the residents or bring in more sole agents. The demand was being met by private renters before the crackdown.
if its not broken dont fix it, and certainlet dont begin evicting residents from their apartments of compelling people to rent theirs out against their will.
A very detailed 2 cents of opinion, said so calmly we can nearly forget that this proposal represents an extreme and dictatorial outrage.
Not needed at all to help footfall, there was no problem with that before the crackdown thanks to internet ads and private renters.
It was broken and now they are trying to fix it.
A simple residential complex or touristic complex wasn't enough for some people.
but there is no need to move out the residents or bring in more sole agents. The demand was being met by private renters before the crackdown.
if its not broken dont fix it, and certainlet dont begin evicting residents from their apartments of compelling people to rent theirs out against their will.
A very detailed 2 cents of opinion, said so calmly we can nearly forget that this proposal represents an extreme and dictatorial outrage.
Not needed at all to help footfall, there was no problem with that before the crackdown thanks to internet ads and private renters.
"Private" renters, over whom there was/is absolutely no control to prevent them running away with deposit money, letting out sub standard and potentially dangerous apartments with little recourse in law against the owners.
"Private" renters who, for years, have not been contributing to the local economy through the correct payment of tax and, as of July this year, 7% IGIC on their transactions.
Whilst you tell us you have been paying tax in the UK on your earnings one wonders how much of that makes it back here. You tell us (and there is no reason to disbelieve you), that you have spent a lot of money keeping your properties up to date, that you employ local people as cleaners, drivers to collect your clients from the airport and so on (albeit not necessarily legally).
The real point though is that whilst you may have voluntarily played the game, there is nothing in law to force you to do so, and there are many who are far less scrupulous, do run away with deposits and don't invest in their accomodation and this is why control is needed - whatever that control might ultimately turn out to be.
The Canarians could consider introducing a licensing system for private renters and you would argue that they should, however they have chosen to take a different approach and look at other ways to bring controls in and at the same time look to see how the quality of the accomodation available is kept at the world class standard they believe is necessary.
There are many on here who sympathise with your position in principle, but as in a previous post, the reality is that you have done pretty well out of your enterprise over the years and it seems that the Government of this country does not see possible solutions in the same way as you do.
I guess that's life in the heady world of property investment?
"Private" renters, over whom there was/is absolutely no control to prevent them running away with deposit money, letting out sub standard and potentially dangerous apartments with little recourse in law against the owners.
"Private" renters who, for years, have not been contributing to the local economy through the correct payment of tax and, as of July this year, 7% IGIC on their transactions.
Whilst you tell us you have been paying tax in the UK on your earnings one wonders how much of that makes it back here. You tell us (and there is no reason to disbelieve you), that you have spent a lot of money keeping your properties up to date, that you employ local people as cleaners, drivers to collect your clients from the airport and so on (albeit not necessarily legally).
The real point though is that whilst you may have voluntarily played the game, there is nothing in law to force you to do so, and there are many who are far less scrupulous, do run away with deposits and don't invest in their accomodation and this is why control is needed - whatever that control might ultimately turn out to be.
The Canarians could consider introducing a licensing system for private renters and you would argue that they should, however they have chosen to take a different approach and look at other ways to bring controls in and at the same time look to see how the quality of the accomodation available is kept at the world class standard they believe is necessary.
There are many on here who sympathise with your position in principle, but as in a previous post, the reality is that you have done pretty well out of your enterprise over the years and it seems that the Government of this country does not see possible solutions in the same way as you do.
I guess that's life in the heady world of property investment?
All the private renters I know offer first class popular apartments. Agreed an annual permit fee should now be paid by private renters, that's what is needed, not mad new laws.
Charge renters a permit each year, that's all that was required, and let the economy grow stronger.
I think it's clear that the government aren't wanting to head for a free for all private rental system to spearhead the tourist industry here.
The problem with that is that although the actual apartment may be of good standard , individual owners have little control of the rest of their building if the other owners are not like minded and tourist focused, this will affect Tourists enjoyment.
It's all speculation but here's my 2 cents:
The tourist areas like Los Cristianos are a mix of:
1. residential and registered legal touristic (EG paloma beach, costamar, royal palm, cristian sur, tenerife sur, san marino, victoria court 1 & 2, comodorro)
2. legal touristic with no residents (EG oasis mango, apartamentos reveron, aguamar, paradise park, villa mandi)
3. residential and now illegal lapsed touristic (sur y sol, los angeles, achacay)
4. residential with some illegal, never registered, letting (el mirador, playa graciosa, visthermosa, parque tropical).
The buildings that appeal to tourists most will be the complexes near to the sea, you only need to read oasis mango and paradise parks reviews to realise this (lots of mentions of the hill).
However the complexes near the front are now a mix of 1 and 3 meaning there are thousands of beds in Los Cristianos that could potentially be used for their original intention - TOURISM.
But what do you do about them? There is no available space to build new tourist complexes as the prime land is already taken up by the complexes in example 1.
There are a two solutions;
1. scrap the moratorium and begin building new complexes at the edge of town even further up the hill from oasis mango where tourists already complain at the location - plus all of the legal complexes would complain at the unfair new competition (hence we have a moratorium).
or
2. Find a way of bring the lost beds in complexes from example 1 back into the touristic fold - while this would create more competition from complex to complex, they would all have more beds to sell.
By the looks of this draft law they have gone for option 2.........
I think we will soon find that this part of the law does not relate to owners living in their property, but it will apply to owners who are non resident and lock up their apartment and do not let, owners who are non resident and say they do not let but actaully do, and finally to owners who long let their property to residents.
On Paloma Beach the split is roughly this:
Legal letting: 65%
illegal letting: 7.5%
locked up not used apart from by owner: 10%
rented long term: 7.5%
lived in by owners: 10%
As you can see there is 25% of the complex that is neither lived in by the owner, or rented legally to tourists.
Thats almost 60 units (200 beds aprox) that are in prime location being wasted.
All of the other complexes in example 1 will have similar "lost beds". The complexes in example 3 will have even more (the whole complex practically).
The complexes in example3 would be given a sole agent (decided by bidding at government level) and brought up to standard.
As you can see this would mean many extra beds would be available to the letting agent of each complex, the extra beds would boost the local economy around each of the complexes as there would be more FOOTFALL.
It seems pretty clear that many apartment owners rent out to help pay for their mortgage on the property
So, on the basis they will not be able to do do that (or at least the figures will not work out -see below) only relatively rich people who can afford to purchase pretty much outright will be in a position to buy.
So who are these people? Who is going to buy all these apartments?
From reading on here it would appear that
- They are going to have to rent out for so many weeks per year - as instructed by the Sole Agent
- They are going to be told how much they will receive per rental from the Sole Agent
- They will not be allowed to rent out at a higher rate, directly to people they know and cut out the Sole Agent
- Oh and of course they will only be allowed to use THEIR apartment when they are told to - by the Sole Agent!
I can't even see commercial enterprises wanting to buy on this basis - unless of course they are ALSO the Sole Agent!
Sounds like the end of the rental market to me - not a new beginning
Yeah got to agree there's not stacks of cash in it for property investors, safer than a lot of other investments and better than most banks will give + increase in property value
You could always do your own cleaning
Increase in property value? Judging by the prices on all these repossessions I guess a decrease might be more accurate Loaded!
Altamira
24-12-2012, 12:12
It's all speculation but here's my 2 cents:
The tourist areas like Los Cristianos are a mix of:
1. residential and registered legal touristic (EG paloma beach, costamar, royal palm, cristian sur, tenerife sur, san marino, victoria court 1 & 2, comodorro)
2. legal touristic with no residents (EG oasis mango, apartamentos reveron, aguamar, paradise park, villa mandi)
3. residential and now illegal lapsed touristic (sur y sol, los angeles, achacay)
4. residential with some illegal, never registered, letting (el mirador, playa graciosa, visthermosa, parque tropical).
The buildings that appeal to tourists most will be the complexes near to the sea, you only need to read oasis mango and paradise parks reviews to realise this (lots of mentions of the hill).
However the complexes near the front are now a mix of 1 and 3 meaning there are thousands of beds in Los Cristianos that could potentially be used for their original intention - TOURISM.
But what do you do about them? There is no available space to build new tourist complexes as the prime land is already taken up by the complexes in example 1.
There are a two solutions;
1. scrap the moratorium and begin building new complexes at the edge of town even further up the hill from oasis mango where tourists already complain at the location - plus all of the legal complexes would complain at the unfair new competition (hence we have a moratorium).
or
2. Find a way of bring the lost beds in complexes from example 1 back into the touristic fold - while this would create more competition from complex to complex, they would all have more beds to sell.
By the looks of this draft law they have gone for option 2.........
I think we will soon find that this part of the law does not relate to owners living in their property, but it will apply to owners who are non resident and lock up their apartment and do not let, owners who are non resident and say they do not let but actaully do, and finally to owners who long let their property to residents.
On Paloma Beach the split is roughly this:
Legal letting: 65%
illegal letting: 7.5%
locked up not used apart from by owner: 10%
rented long term: 7.5%
lived in by owners: 10%
As you can see there is 25% of the complex that is neither lived in by the owner, or rented legally to tourists.
Thats almost 60 units (200 beds aprox) that are in prime location being wasted.
All of the other complexes in example 1 will have similar "lost beds". The complexes in example 3 will have even more (the whole complex practically).
The complexes in example3 would be given a sole agent (decided by bidding at government level) and brought up to standard.
As you can see this would mean many extra beds would be available to the letting agent of each complex, the extra beds would boost the local economy around each of the complexes as there would be more FOOTFALL.
Hello Loaded
I would like to thank you for your very informative comments. I was interested to read the part
where you suggest that residents within tourist or dormant apartments, who do not rent them out, will not be forced to hand over control of their apartments to a sole agent. However what is your definition of a resident?
I use my Tenerife apartment as a second home, I do not rent it out and I use it six times a year for 3 weeks each trip, this totals 18 weeks per year = 35% of the year. I normally spend the time between trips in the UK. Would someone in my position qualify to keep my second home or will I be forced to hand it over to the sole agent?
Hi Altamira,
Obviously I don't know the answer to your question, this is all total speculation on my part - but if i'm right then you would be a prime example on someone who is (apologies for the terminology) "wasting" tourist beds.
Hi Altamira,
Obviously I don't know the answer to your question, this is all total speculation on my part - but if i'm right then you would be a prime example on someone who is (apologies for the terminology) "wasting" tourist beds.
Hi LOADED, I have been looking at this Forum for a few weeks now, and finally decided to join, so this is my first post! I took particular notice of your list of complexes in Los Cristianos, and which category they fall into, because I am coming to stay with my Aunt and Uncle again over New Year for 10 days, and they live in Las Rosas, which is next door to Sur y Sol, opposite the taxi rank. I think it is residential, at least I hope so! They have lived there a long time now, but I'm not sure they are aware of all this illegal stuff, etc. Will they be OK do you think? Thanks. Olivine
Well las Rosas has to the best of my knowledge always been residential by definition but strangely enough I stayed there on holiday aged 5 or 6 in the mid 80s so who knows lol!
Just looking through the other thread on here "Beware of Maestro", and people wonder why the letting industry regulation needs sorting !!
Happy Christmas all
junglejim
24-12-2012, 22:02
Just looking through the other thread on here "Beware of Maestro", and people wonder why the letting industry regulation needs sorting !!
Happy Christmas all
But they took bookings for Paloma Beach ?
They did take bookings for paloma beach, for about 5 or 6 years they have.
They've always paid for bookings but lately got slower and slower and needed more and more prodding for payment, then one day we got the email their clients got saying they couldn't fulfill their financial obligations - we waited a few days for contact from the clients them cancelled and re let the apartments .
Just looking through the other thread on here "Beware of Maestro", and people wonder why the letting industry regulation needs sorting !!
Happy Christmas all
100 per cent wrong muppet. When you involve agents you are more likely to end up with bandits doing a runner with clients money. Private renters are never commercial sharks, the success and growth of private renting is built on clean quality apartments and reliable and trustworthy owners.
Without this the sector would not have grown to a million beds!!!
Maestro are hardly the par for the course. Just an online "travel agent" run by a husband and wife team who for some unknown reason decided to screw a few people's holidays up.
They were hardly booking.com or Expedia.....
bonitatime
24-12-2012, 23:25
100 per cent wrong muppet. When you involve agents you are more likely to end up with bandits doing a runner with clients money. Private renters are never commercial sharks, the success and growth of private renting is built on clean quality apartments and reliable and trustworthy owners.
Without this the sector would not have grown to a million beds!!!
Are you claiming there are 1 millón prívate beds in Tenerife?
Are you claiming there are 1 millón prívate beds in Tenerife?
The figure is said to be illegal and clandestine beds throughout the whole Canary Islands.
It's a huge part of the vital tourist industry and should be legalised and encouraged, not attacked.
And we're back to page 10!
100 per cent wrong muppet. When you involve agents you are more likely to end up with bandits doing a runner with clients money. Private renters are never commercial sharks, the success and growth of private renting is built on clean quality apartments and reliable and trustworthy owners.
Without this the sector would not have grown to a million beds!!!
Better to have 2000 sole agents across the islands than 1 million soles renting out their homes. The Government are going about this in the correct way so far.
Shall we call them "The Brown Envelope Brigade":wow::whistle:....... *legs it*
Altamira
26-12-2012, 13:10
100 per cent wrong muppet. When you involve agents you are more likely to end up with bandits doing a runner with clients money. Private renters are never commercial sharks, the success and growth of private renting is built on clean quality apartments and reliable and trustworthy owners.
Without this the sector would not have grown to a million beds!!!
I think many private renters also deal with agents (many now undergound) and some private renters are commercial sharks and they are not all trustworthy owners, many of their apartments are not clean. The authorities should encourage a system that ensures a quality standard, however the proposed new laws appear to have a potentially horrendous affect on tourist apartment owners who do not rent out, it is worded in a manner that appears to say that all tourist apartment owners will be forced to rent them out.
junglejim
26-12-2012, 13:36
I think many private renters also deal with agents (many now undergound) and some private renters are commercial sharks and they are not all trustworthy owners, many of their apartments are not clean. The authorities should encourage a system that ensures a quality standard, however the proposed new laws appear to have a potentially horrendous affect on tourist apartment owners who do not rent out, it is worded in a manner that appears to say that all tourist apartment owners will be forced to rent them out.
So you have evidence of these allegations then ? Private renters who spend tens of thousand of pounds renovating their apartments , furnishing them with Flat screen TVs , DVD payers , fridge freezers etc - or people like Konrad who strip your apartment down to bare minimum and make you rent a Kettle, Toaster, TV or fan to use .
Or some of the "Three Star Hotels" with substandard equipment , shabby towels , bed linen , soiled matresses numerous break ins alowing any groups of morons to rent and wreck apartments and that pass Turismo's quality standards?
Don't know who you are Altamira but you're starting to make Nelson sound believable !
To be fair there's as much evidence either way
junglejim
26-12-2012, 13:54
I think many private renters also deal with agents (many now undergound) and some private renters are commercial sharks and they are not all trustworthy owners, many of their apartments are not clean
Pretty damning criticism - some evidence would be interesting.
clearly as loaded has said, it is wrong to generalise. Broadly speaking the majority of private rented apartments are 5 stars, proud owners often refurbing to to amazing standards. There is still room for a few bad apples, as in any human affairs, poor cleaning can let down even the most des res up market place. Broadley speaking and overall though, the private rented sector comes up to and exeeds all the standard set by the legal 3 star sector.
Its funny on this thread how the sole agents often side track the debate down some silly tangent. The fact is that as I said pages ago, renting individually is the norm throughout the world. Its not a radical step that portugal has taken in permitting private renting, its not like legalising canabis taking or reducing homosexual marriage to 14. All they have done is make leagal a normal everyday occurance that should not cause any hassle or problem.
Only in the canaries do we find this normal practice restricted by law, and now even more crazy laws are being planned. You sole agents can continue to remind us that we have broken the canarian law, but you can never find and real world arguments to justify sole agency. Enjoy your position while you can, a change will come.
I didn't realize all your detractors were sole agents..... Or that there were so many of them on here
clearly as loaded has said, it is wrong to generalise. Broadly speaking the majority of private rented apartments are 5 stars, proud owners often refurbing to to amazing standards. There is still room for a few bad apples, as in any human affairs, poor cleaning can let down even the most des res up market place. Broadley speaking and overall though, the private rented sector comes up to and exeeds all the standard set by the legal 3 star sector.
Its funny on this thread how the sole agents often side track the debate down some silly tangent. The fact is that as I said pages ago, renting individually is the norm throughout the world. Its not a radical step that portugal has taken in permitting private renting, its not like legalising canabis taking or reducing homosexual marriage to 14. All they have done is make leagal a normal everyday occurance that should not cause any hassle or problem.
Only in the canaries do we find this normal practice restricted by law, and now even more crazy laws are being planned. You sole agents can continue to remind us that we have broken the canarian law, but you can never find and real world arguments to justify sole agency. Enjoy your position while you can, a change will come.
You still haven't grasped the basic fact that it doesn't matter what the rest of the world is doing about holiday renting, the simple fact is that it is illegal in the Canaries - plain and simple and until the new law is clarified and passed, it still remains illegal at the moment.
It will be interesting to see what the new law actually contains when it is finally passed, as opposed to everybody's literal translations of what they think it means (or in some cases what it suits them for the translation to mean) rather than what the Canarian government actually mean. Until the final law is actually released we are dealing with total speculation.
Better to have 2000 sole agents across the islands than 1 million soles renting out their homes. The Government are going about this in the correct way so far.
Can't understand why you seem to completely disregard the fact that someone can spend their own hard earned money on an apartment only for a sole agent to tell them:-
When they can stay in it
When they can't stay in it
Who to rent it out to
How much they get back when it's rented out
Seems totally nuts and completely unfair to me
Can't understand why you seem to completely disregard the fact that someone can spend their own hard earned money on an apartment only for a sole agent to tell them:-
When they can stay in it
When they can't stay in it
Who to rent it out to
How much they get back when it's rented out
Seems totally nuts and completely unfair to me
And as I say, an Alice in wonderland situation that only exists in the Canary Islands.
Its funny on this thread how the illegal guys often side track the debate down some silly tangent. The fact is that as I said pages ago, renting individually is the norm throughout the world. Its not a radical step that portugal has taken in permitting private renting, its not like legalising canabis taking or reducing homosexual marriage to 14. All they have done is make leagal a normal everyday occurance that should not cause any hassle or problem.
Exactly.....
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Can't understand why you seem to completely disregard the fact that someone can spend their own hard earned money on an apartment only for a sole agent to tell them:-
When they can stay in it
When they can't stay in it
Who to rent it out to
How much they get back when it's rented out
Seems totally nuts and completely unfair to me
Do understand
- - - - - - - - - - merged double post - - - - - - - - - -
All they have done is make leagal a normal everyday occurance that should not cause any hassle or problem.
Has it ever been legal to rent to tourists without a license?.
bonitatime
27-12-2012, 09:48
This law has been in existance for more years than most people have owned their apartments
No one insisted they bought here and ignorance is no excuse
This was the law when most bought and continues to be so.
99% of the people on here have no voting rights and therefore don't count for the Canarian government.
What happens in Portugal doesn't interest them either. Rightly or wrongly this is the way they see forward.
duncan-6
27-12-2012, 12:17
When will the new law be in force? was it supposed to be december, put back as far as possibly May?
This law has been in existance for more years than most people have owned their apartments
No one insisted they bought here and ignorance is no excuse
This was the law when most bought and continues to be so.
99% of the people on here have no voting rights and therefore don't count for the Canarian government.
What happens in Portugal doesn't interest them either. Rightly or wrongly this is the way they see forward.
the problem with the law as it stands, and since it was brought in in 1995, is that it exists due to a desire to protect the hotel groups. It is a law that is wrong and pointless, it does not help the canarian economy in any way. All it achieves is an unwieldey system that for reason unknown to most, requires a complex to be let out through one monopoly agent , rather than say the normal world wide way where individual owners just get on with the job. the canary islands largely ignored this daft law for 15 years 1995 to 2010, and in doing so it sort of shows how pointless the law was in the first place.
people are now being attacked for private renting due to the hotels demanding this due to thecrissis of 2007/8, they quite simply imagine all the internet private apartments have stolen all their customers.
Agreed this law has existed for a long a time, but laws can be unjust and wrong all around the world, and peolple often have to campaign and try to get them altered and changed. We can not all just accept the law as untouchable , that is not how a free democractic society works. We do have the right to stand up and say that this law is wrong and that we think that it would be better to have a different system in the canaries, one that allows individual private renting.
How are you standing up to this law nelson other than ranting on a forum?
Are you actively doing anything else or are you thinking of doing anything else ?
the problem with the law as it stands, and since it was brought in in 1995, is that it exists due to a desire to protect the hotel groups. It is a law that is wrong and pointless, it does not help the canarian economy in any way. All it achieves is an unwieldey system that for reason unknown to most, requires a complex to be let out through one monopoly agent , rather than say the normal world wide way where individual owners just get on with the job. the canary islands largely ignored this daft law for 15 years 1995 to 2010, and in doing so it sort of shows how pointless the law was in the first place.
people are now being attacked for private renting due to the hotels demanding this due to thecrissis of 2007/8, they quite simply imagine all the internet private apartments have stolen all their customers.
Agreed this law has existed for a long a time, but laws can be unjust and wrong all around the world, and peolple often have to campaign and try to get them altered and changed. We can not all just accept the law as untouchable , that is not how a free democractic society works. We do have the right to stand up and say that this law is wrong and that we think that it would be better to have a different system in the canaries, one that allows individual private renting.
I disagree (but you would expect that!)
The law exists to protect the islands most important industry - that of tourism.
Protect it from what - protect it from individuals operating without recourse to anyone, without the need to protect tourists from dangerous and below standard accomodation and to ensure that visitors needs are looked after in terms of their safety and security.
What is most interesting is that in general terms official tourist numbers, which were growing prior to the clamp-down have continued to grow and not collapse as you have been predicting. Perhaps then the services you et al were providing were not as vital as you believe them to be.
The Canaries are not alone in the world in introducing laws governing their tourist industry and the Government here seems it is going to continue strengthening them rather than allowing the free-for-all to continue.
Have you put your places on the market yet?
junglejim
27-12-2012, 14:03
Sorry Muppet but the law only appears to be protecting vested interests and little effort in integrating the illegal letting into a fair system .
I'm sure I read tourist numbers are down on this time last year ?
What protection is there for people caught up in scams like the recent Maestro situation - people were still being conned up till a couple of weeks ago but no Sole Agent raised a flag on that one ?
The tourist numbers are being augmented by the unrest and uncertainty in the Egyptian and surrounding tourist zones .
The services that the private renters that make the effort are indeed thriving , certainly in our complex which is trying to be legal but the Beaurocracy is unbelievably and ridiculously perverse!
We have people literally on waiting lists for private apartments where we are situated.
When will the new law be in force? was it supposed to be december, put back as far as possibly May?
No one knows,it's going through parliament at the moment, lets hope they take their time and get it right, be a shame if they end up with a bad law.
Sorry Muppet but the law only appears to be protecting vested interests and little effort in integrating the illegal letting into a fair system .
I'm sure I read tourist numbers are down on this time last year ?
What protection is there for people caught up in scams like the recent Maestro situation - people were still being conned up till a couple of weeks ago but no Sole Agent raised a flag on that one ?
The tourist numbers are being augmented by the unrest and uncertainty in the Egyptian and surrounding tourist zones .
The services that the private renters that make the effort are indeed thriving , certainly in our complex which is trying to be legal but the Beaurocracy is unbelievably and ridiculously perverse!
We have people literally on waiting lists for private apartments where we are situated.
Exactly what could a sole agent, or anyone do about a company going bust?????
Exactly.....
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Do understand
Aah Thank you for your compelling argument - just tell me what to do - Brilliant!!!
(there are none so blind as those who refuse to see)
junglejim
27-12-2012, 16:17
Exactly what could a sole agent, or anyone do about a company going bust?????
Exactly! So what's the advantage of a sole agent if he has no responsibility for the booking ? Just as much risk booking directly with owner then.
You said in post 4948 that you dumped them and relet apartments , so that must have been a decent time ago?
Exactly! So what's the advantage of a sole agent if he has no responsibility for the booking ? Just as much risk booking directly with owner then.
You said in post 4948 that you dumped them and relet apartments , so that must have been a decent time ago?
its the emporers new clothes position, only the sole agents on here try to argue in favour of monopoly sole agency, as if this unique canary mad system is actually reasonabley needed.
At the end of the day its just a matter of time before outside bodies start to look at all this insanity, the more mad the govts law changes the quicker the day will come.
Private individual letting is the world wide norm, there is no practicle need to try to run self catering holiday apartments any other way. Only here in the canaries this plan points to something very wrong within government and in relation to the govts relationship with one part of the tourist industry.
Without that abnormal situation we would not have this madness, and in my opinion the more the govt continues on this path and the more extreme they become, the quicker this mess can be sorted out along reasonable grounds, hopefully in accord with how things tend to be done on the rest of the planet.
Aah Thank you for your compelling argument - just tell me what to do - Brilliant!!!
(there are none so blind as those who refuse to see)
Argument? if you can't see the benefits of a sole agent there's no helping you to see.
The Canarian Government are correct to take control of this out of control shambles and pull the reins in over their only profitable industry.
A sole agent is the correct way to run a tourist let complex.
Instead of load of different people having a go, it's nothing new here.
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Exactly! So what's the advantage of a sole agent if he has no responsibility for the booking ?
Do those payments go to Loaded?
Argument? if you can't see the benefits of a sole agent there's no helping you to see.
The Canarian Government are correct to take control of this out of control shambles and pull the reins in over their only profitable industry.
A sole agent is the correct way to run a tourist let complex.
Instead of load of different people having a go, it's nothing new here.
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Do those payments go to Loaded?
Bless you 9 plus,, you have reduced the debate to a clear issue. Do sole agents do anything at all of value?
My personal experience of 9 years renting on a complex without a sole agent is that they are not needed at all. That's the issue in a nutshell .
Exactly! So what's the advantage of a sole agent if he has no responsibility for the booking ? Just as much risk booking directly with owner then.
You said in post 4948 that you dumped them and relet apartments , so that must have been a decent time ago?
Less than a week ago
Bless you 9 plus,, you have reduced the debate to a clear issue. Do sole agents do anything at all of value?
My personal experience of 9 years renting on a complex without a sole agent is that they are not needed at all. That's the issue in a nutshell .
Bless you nelson you obviously cant follow rules, regulations nor Laws in another country.
So a sole agent would be the best for any apartment/complex you may own, then we can't blame it on your ignorance.
Bless you 9 plus,, you have reduced the debate to a clear issue. Do sole agents do anything at all of value?
My personal experience of 9 years renting on a complex without a sole agent is that they are not needed at all. That's the issue in a nutshell .
Should read" My personal experience of illegal renting without a sole agent is that in MY humble opinion they are not needed at all". However I am not a tourist who has been unfortunate enough to rent from an illegal landlord on a residential complex and suffer poor quality accomodation/abuse from owners who tell me that I shouldn't be on their complex/and 101 other problems. Get real Nelson,there are thousands of problems for unsuspecting tousists who rent from illegal landlords and most of us understand this and hope that the will be more control in the future not less. There will not be legal short term renting on residential complexes which is really all you want. So not sure what you are hanging on for!!!!
Should read" My personal experience of illegal renting without a sole agent is that in MY humble opinion they are not needed at all". However I am not a tourist who has been unfortunate enough to rent from an illegal landlord on a residential complex and suffer poor quality accomodation/abuse from owners who tell me that I shouldn't be on their complex/and 101 other problems. Get real Nelson,there are thousands of problems for unsuspecting tousists who rent from illegal landlords and most of us understand this and hope that the will be more control in the future not less. There will not be legal short term renting on residential complexes which is really all you want. So not sure what you are hanging on for!!!!
And of course further to this, our none sole agent complex is very popular with many guests returning and re booking year after year.
junglejim
28-12-2012, 02:33
This was the original post here on Maestro on 21/12 -
This company Maestro Vacations have ceased trading having taken £825 off me last week for an appt in april.
I have been told that they were still taking money this week.
So if anyone has a 3 bed available for April 12 for 7 nights please contact me
We had experience of a sole agent (Konrad) on our complex , his poorly furnished minimalist apartments and bullying attitude - he is an important official in ASHOTEL - he has this year imposed draconian measures and threats at Panorama ,just as he does on other complexes- he operates illegally on Club Atlantis - this is the type of person who is influencing the new law going through the Cabildo, offering little for the owners who invested their money in the Island .
Sole Agents earn a living of of these peoples' investments at , as it would seem, no risk or liability for other parties they farm out to .
How is he operating illegally on club Atlantis?
Also don't be blind enough to think there is no risk to going into these complexes on the behalf of the sole agent, while we work very differently from the Konrad group his furniture plan is obviously part of his business model that he knows works.
All of which (above) is precisely why the Government of these islands is determined to bring in further legislation. There is only one important element in all of this, and that is of the visitor - the tourist upon whom the islands future depends.
You can kinda see their point.
junglejim
28-12-2012, 11:59
You seem to miss the point,Muppet, that if the owners hadn't invested the millions of pounds in buying property and the Timeshare lot who are sinking, then there would be very few visitors except for the Ashotel Group ! Aren't they important too?
My understanding is that Konrad doesn't hold 50%+1 apartments any more ,that's why he can't blackmail them the same way he does in Panorama - the upcoming AGM should be very interesting for President Zimmerman !
Even if he doesn't have 50%+1 he can be allowed to continue by the tourist board - he still holds the license .
Either way it doesn't give anyone else a foothold to get him out as they'd need his 40 odd percent to sign up to them along with the rest ..... The agm won't be very interesting at all in that respect - cant see why the agm is even relevant???
Even if he doesn't have 50%+1 he can be allowed to continue by the tourist board - he still holds the license .
Either way it doesn't give anyone else a foothold to get him out as they'd need his 40 odd percent to sign up to them along with the rest ..... The agm won't be very interesting at all in that respect - cant see why the agm is even relevant???
So is that it?
Is that what the precious tourist can look forward to? Do you really think that it's in the best interest of the holidaymaker to have a situation whereby the agent can do as he wishes and there's nothing anyone can do about it?
Do sole agents do anything at all of value?
They stop people like you getting fined!:laugh:
They stop people like you getting fined!:laugh:
Surely it's the reverse....they make sure they do what they can to make sure people like Nelson get fined..:whistle:
They stop people like you getting fined!:laugh:
agreed, but that is like a protection racket payment, pay the sole agent or face the consequences. As I say, monopoly sole agents do nothing that is needed in the real world. We on our complex have got by without them for longer than I have been involved in tourism in Tenerife. We have a great many happy returning customers, we always look after the tourist.
Sorry to state the bilndingly obvious , but this Alice in wonderland system only exists in the canaries, in a nutshell, sole agents are not needed, they never were.
So is that it?
Is that what the precious tourist can look forward to? Do you really think that it's in the best interest of the holidaymaker to have a situation whereby the agent can do as he wishes and there's nothing anyone can do about it?
The tourist can look forward to the standard they've paid for , all businesses have a business model, if konrads business model is that all the apartments are the same and that works or him and his clients - where's the problem?
But the point you continually continue to miss is that whilst you may be the gentleman of private letting, there are no laws governing your activities and therefore no protection for the tourist. This is the root of the issue as the Government see it. You may be whiter than white, and I don't think anyone has suggested you are not, but if another "private letter" on your complex was continually under cutting your rates AND offering a considerably worse "service", or even, heaven forbid ripping tourists off, who do you turn to to complain. At the moment everything you (and many others) do is un-regulated and therein lies the problem.
As has been said before, you can't blame the Government for wanting to introduce regulation and standards against which everyone is measured and to which everyone is required to comply so as to ensure the overall tourist offer on the islands meets certain standards.
Again, as before, the Government here do not seem to accept that the present free-for-all is the way to go, nor is interested in getting involved in some kind of individual licensing system as you advocate. That is their prerogative - they are in charge and it is their shout.
The Canaries are not the only place in the world to impose, often strict, rules and regulations to protect visitors, some councils in the UK do the same, and other areas of Spain also.
You can't really blame them, and it's not as if the laws here are new either........
agreed, but that is like a protection racket payment, pay the sole agent or face the consequences. As I say, monopoly sole agents do nothing that is needed in the real world. We on our complex have got by without them for longer than I have been involved in tourism in Tenerife. We have a great many happy returning customers, we always look after the tourist.
Sorry to state the bilndingly obvious , but this Alice in wonderland system only exists in the canaries, in a nutshell, sole agents are not needed, they never were.
You really do talk nonsense! Do you think we just sit on our arses raking the money in?
We have worked bloody hard for the last 7 years to operate legally, for the first 4 years not making a profit. So when we hear people like you have been penalised we appreciate the efforts made by the authorities to protect the owners who have invested wisely in property on legally registered complexes.
Pre 1995 you were permitted more than one agent per complex, none of them would work together so the law asked for a sole agent to answer to customers and authorities alike. A system that works, but not in your little blinkered world.
We don't get grumbles from the 100+ apartments we look after. We deduct their tax, cover community fees and there is plenty left over for them to make a nice profit from their legally registered apartments - they sometimes get ****** off when their regular clients end up in cheaper illegal accommodation like yours!
Have you payed your fine yet? the second one must be due shortly and you won't get a chance to appeal for a repeat infringement.
junglejim
28-12-2012, 16:10
Even if he doesn't have 50%+1 he can be allowed to continue by the tourist board - he still holds the license .
Either way it doesn't give anyone else a foothold to get him out as they'd need his 40 odd percent to sign up to them along with the rest ..... The agm won't be very interesting at all in that respect - cant see why the agm is even relevant???
So the community can't appoint a new Sole Agent if they persuade the proxies to change, the rule doesn't matter , the AGM isn't relevant ?
Sounds like a nice cabal to me ! Maybe that's why Roberto is hanging tight with Ashotel !
You really do talk nonsense! Do you think we just sit on our arses raking the money in?
We have worked bloody hard for the last 7 years to operate legally, for the first 4 years not making a profit. So when we hear people like you have been penalised we appreciate the efforts made by the authorities to protect the owners who have invested wisely in property on legally registered complexes.
Pre 1995 you were permitted more than one agent per complex, none of them would work together so the law asked for a sole agent to answer to customers and authorities alike. A system that works, but not in your little blinkered world.
We don't get grumbles from the 100+ apartments we look after. We deduct their tax, cover community fees and there is plenty left over for them to make a nice profit from their legally registered apartments - they sometimes get ****** off when their regular clients end up in cheaper illegal accommodation like yours!
Have you payed your fine yet? the second one must be due shortly and you won't get a chance to appeal for a repeat infringement.
I do have sympathy with the position of decent sole agents. You have embarked on a business venture dependant upon the alice in wonderland situation, unnecesary laws requiring your involvement. That does not alter the fact that many sole agents exploit their position to the detriment of clients and owners, or the simple nutshell fact that your involvement is a canarian legal oddity and not actually required at all in the first place.
Its understandable that you might get angry with me when I point all this out, its your complete livlyhood that is at stake in a reformed marketplace, our involvement is just a hoilday home/ buy to let investment.
That does not change the fact that these laws are not needed and certainley sole agents are not. The private letting industry has a good reputation for customer service and satisfaction, there is no problem with disatisfied customers without anyone to complain to. All that is needed realistically is a proper tax for the private renters to pay, the annual permit as is charged in portugal. If private renters made a contribution to the islands tax take directly , then the industry could move forward to the great advantage of the canarian economy and people.
I The private letting industry has a good reputation for customer service and satisfaction,
Where do you get your information from regarding that statement?
Are you generalizing from your complex and maybe a handful of other people around you?
Tom & Sharon
28-12-2012, 18:34
I do have sympathy with the position of decent sole agents. You have embarked on a business venture dependant upon the alice in wonderland situation, unnecesary laws requiring your involvement. That does not alter the fact that many sole agents exploit their position to the detriment of clients and owners, or the simple nutshell fact that your involvement is a canarian legal oddity and not actually required at all in the first place.
Its understandable that you might get angry with me when I point all this out, its your complete livlyhood that is at stake in a reformed marketplace, our involvement is just a hoilday home/ buy to let investment.
That does not change the fact that these laws are not needed and certainley sole agents are not. The private letting industry has a good reputation for customer service and satisfaction, there is no problem with disatisfied customers without anyone to complain to. All that is needed realistically is a proper tax for the private renters to pay, the annual permit as is charged in portugal. If private renters made a contribution to the islands tax take directly , then the industry could move forward to the great advantage of the canarian economy and people.
So you aren't the island's philanthropist you claim to be............. :nono:
"I only wish to cover my costs" cries Nelson............. on my TWO apartments................
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive..............
I do have sympathy with the position of decent sole agents. You have embarked on a business venture dependant upon the alice in wonderland situation, unnecesary laws requiring your involvement. That does not alter the fact that many sole agents exploit their position to the detriment of clients and owners, or the simple nutshell fact that your involvement is a canarian legal oddity and not actually required at all in the first place.
Its understandable that you might get angry with me when I point all this out, its your complete livlyhood that is at stake in a reformed marketplace, our involvement is just a hoilday home/ buy to let investment.
That does not change the fact that these laws are not needed and certainley sole agents are not. The private letting industry has a good reputation for customer service and satisfaction, there is no problem with disatisfied customers without anyone to complain to. All that is needed realistically is a proper tax for the private renters to pay, the annual permit as is charged in portugal. If private renters made a contribution to the islands tax take directly , then the industry could move forward to the great advantage of the canarian economy and people.
Not via you Nelson,you're NOT CANARIAN,you don't have a vote and the Canarian Government is trying to stop you salting away your ill gotten gains and eventually get some taxes back into the Canarian economy and away from the black economy and doesn't care what you think................
Tom :tiphat:
This thread is going round in circles. In my opinion turismo is sticking to a model that was suitable in times that the travel companies brought over tourists by the bus load, and treated them like cattle. However, since the customers got a taste of private "home from home" holidays, they haven't looked back, and indeed why should they ? As the saying goes, the customer is always right.
Turismo had from 1995 to get their act together and keep the clients happy, but did they ? Is there one post on this thread from a satisfied customer who is advocating that the sole agent apartment serves their needs better ? Or is it a case of "we know what the client requires, better than they do" ?
Maybe now it's moved on again over to the Russian tourist which prefer Hotels and demand service.
junglejim
28-12-2012, 21:50
Maybe now it's moved on again over to the Russian tourist which prefer Hotels and demand service.
Not so sure about that 9Plus our complex has several Russian/Eastern Bloc owners now and increasing numbers of private rentals , they like value for money too !
We even have Russian satellite channels that they have installed!
Maybe now it's moved on again over to the Russian tourist which prefer Hotels and demand service.
It would be a very good thing if many Russian tourists came and took holidays in Canarian hotels. But the islands also need private apament customers, it need not be one type of tourist or the other. The canaries need all the footfall .
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