View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
Does anyone on here seriously think that in 5 or 10 years time that there will be zero holidaymakers staying at the likes of Parque Santiago 1 & 2 or El Mirador/Dinastia etc,Whilst over in Tenerife last week i stayed opposite Parque 2 and was amazed that some people that have lived on the complex for 25 years didn't have a clue about the 17 inspectors that are currently doing the rounds and laughed it off, I think with the friends and family scenario it would be hard to prove if as one said," I've never advertised because the same people come back and use the apartments year after year. Has there not been any info in the press?
Peterrayner
10-06-2011, 12:22
Hi, we are coming over next month to live.( cant wait) The plan is to stay somewhere in Los Chris for 2 months, get a feel of the area and then rent long term. This post has made me a tad apprehensive?? Have been offered an apartment in El Mirador. Please PM with any info.
As Doreen said you have nothing to worry about has a long term tenant. :)
All I would suggest is get yourself a NIE number (its no big deal) then make sure you get a legal rental contract. It needs to be in Spanish ( but a translation is usually available as well) and I would recommend this is for a minimum term of 6 months.
Make sure any deposit or bond paid is secure and get a written inventory of the apartment and its furnishings and equipment
delderek
10-06-2011, 12:49
The law is NOT clear! The law has not been enforced for 15 years and they are now attempting to enforce it.
What happens if a couple of owners sell up and the exploitacion company lose their 50%+1? Do they suddenly have to cease trading? What happens to all the bookings? A month later the new owners decide to put their apartments back with the exploitation giving them 50%+1 again - suddenly they are allowed to trade again?
Whats the minimum amount of time you can let out your own apartment on a residential complex?
Whats the minimum amount of time you can let out your own apartment on a touristic complex?
What is deemed as a reasonable contribution to running costs where family and friends are concerned?
Are friends and family even allowed? As according to one interpretation of the law on this thread on the other forum, it would seem they are not!
If 100% of owners on a residential complex decide they are happy to change the status to a touristic one - brilliant. But what if after a month of operation, one owner changes his mind? Again - it all just shuts down and everyone has to cancel their bookings?
What happens if you let your property to someone who wants it for at least 6 months but who decides after two weeks that they are moving out? Have they broken the law? Have you?
This is not clear at all and the more people who offer an answer - the more different answers there seem to be! If it were straightforward and simple the last thread wouldn't have ran to hundreds and hundreds of posts.
The Apartment has to be de registered with the tourist authorities, simply being sold to a new owner does not de register it. and as the process takes a few months, your scenario is unlikely to occur.
The time would be in your contract, if it is the type of contract whereby you assign it to the agent for a set number of weeks, although this type of contract is rare.
Most agents will only require that their service charge is paid if you have let to "Friends and
Family"
On newer Residential complexes this status can never be changed, this would be an easy dodge to flout the building moratorium.
If letting for six months a legal contract must be given, and it would be assumed penalties for breaking the contract on both sides would apply.
Peterrayner
10-06-2011, 13:12
As the only apartments that can be rented out are on Tourist complexes where there is an exploitation company(with an office on site) and all rentals have to done through them,there will be control.If you want to put your family into your apartment then they will have be notified.I don't understand why there is any confusion the law is clear and no amount of huffing and puffing will change it now.
sorry but IMHO it is far far from clear.
Yes on touristic sites it is reasonably clear but with residential property there remains a very considerable grey area.
I was given to understand when a member of the Ciudadnos Europeos that the original 1995 Letting Law was amended to enshrine by Royal Decree 93/1998 that a concession was granted to allow legal famiy and friends use and this situation was confirmed in response to a question I made at an AGM by our then Administrators and it was added to the minutes of the meeting My accountant has also confirmed that family and friends use is acceptable providing it is of a reasonable amount ie not 40 weeks a year.
However various poster on here have stated that this is not the case and that there is no actual concession allowed and that the law says anyone staying at a "temporary" address is defined by the tourismo as a tourist, and therefore a so called illegal renter, which I find very difficult to accept.
Where do you live? Do you live in UK or Tenerife? Do you have a property on a residential complex which you feel you have the right somehow to rent out, regardless of the law and the feelings of fellow owners. Or do you just like to holiday in residential complexes where you shouldn't?
Sorry, I thought the fact I holiday rented a residential property in the Canaries was well known on this topic - I appreciate though this is a new forum, but most likely you missed it. Better to look down on your computer screen instead of down your nose at other people.
The authorities have condoned my activity by not stopping myself and the other thousands of owners from holiday renting over the past 15 years. They realise that we now bring millions of euros into the islands' economy every year, and have to regulate holiday rentals, which in turn means they can collect even more tax on the activity.
They have therefore said that they will concentrate on finding ways to bring these properties within the existing framework by formal registration, which will mean that the laws will have to be changed. This is backed up by the fact they have done absolutely nothing in nearly 5 months now whilst hundreds of new properties have come onto the rental market in that period.
So if you have any problem with what myself and thousands of other owners are doing, I suggest you contact the appropriate authorities instead of calling owners selfish, greedy, crooks: tourists holidaymakers from hell: and estate agents liars. As has been said above, the authorities are the only people to blame. Too many years of licences being granted in exchange for backhanders, in the knowledge that the properties could only be sold by promising rental return. They have made the situation which we have today, and only they can get the mess sorted out. There is no turning back the clock 15 years now. As I've said before, anyone who thinks they are out to stop all holiday letting of existing residential properties in the Canaries is bonkers.
So if you are "Hoping for a peaceful summer without illegal renters and their screaming kids", dream on.
You certainly aren't going to tell me what I and others can and can't do with our properties. The authorities will tell us that.
Tom & Sharon
10-06-2011, 15:43
Sorry, I thought the fact I holiday rented a residential property in the Canaries was well known on this topic - I appreciate though this is a new forum, but most likely you missed it. Better to look down on your computer screen instead of down your nose at other people.
The authorities have condoned my activity by not stopping myself and the other thousands of owners from holiday renting over the past 15 years. They realise that we now bring millions of euros into the islands' economy every year, and have to regulate holiday rentals, which in turn means they can collect even more tax on the activity.
They have therefore said that they will concentrate on finding ways to bring these properties within the existing framework by formal registration, which will mean that the laws will have to be changed. This is backed up by the fact they have done absolutely nothing in nearly 5 months now whilst hundreds of new properties have come onto the rental market in that period.
So if you have any problem with what myself and thousands of other owners are doing, I suggest you contact the appropriate authorities instead of calling owners selfish, greedy, crooks: tourists holidaymakers from hell: and estate agents liars. As has been said above, the authorities are the only people to blame. Too many years of licences being granted in exchange for backhanders, in the knowledge that the properties could only be sold by promising rental return. They have made the situation which we have today, and only they can get the mess sorted out. There is no turning back the clock 15 years now. As I've said before, anyone who thinks they are out to stop all holiday letting of existing residential properties in the Canaries is bonkers.
So if you are "Hoping for a peaceful summer without illegal renters and their screaming kids", dream on.
You certainly aren't going to tell me what I and others can and can't do with our properties. The authorities will tell us that.
And I hope they will tell you. I also hope they heavily fine the owner of the residential property in which you stop. It will serve them right.
If you wish to holiday in a residential property, then I suggest you buy your own. If you can't afford it, then I suggest you stay in a touristic complex, or a lovely 5* hotel. If you can't afford that, then please holiday elsewhere - Blackpool maybe.
It is pathetic to hide behind the excuse that people bring millions of euros to the economy every year by staying in residential complexes. Most of them shop in Mercadona and Iceland, and stay in every night BBQ'ing sausages and drinking cheap plonk. IMHO The Canarian Government have realised they will bring far more revenue to the island by filling it with 5* hotels, and the subsequent spending power of the people who will stay in them. It may be a long term plan, but I think it is their aim.
The appropriate authorities have been contacted 2 weeks ago, with regards to illegal letting our complex, and I will report it on this thread when and if anything happens.
And I hope they will tell you. I also hope they heavily fine the owner of the residential property in which you stop. It will serve them right.
If you wish to holiday in a residential property, then I suggest you buy your own. If you can't afford it, then I suggest you stay in a touristic complex, or a lovely 5* hotel. If you can't afford that, then please holiday elsewhere - Blackpool maybe.
It is pathetic to hide behind the excuse that people bring millions of euros to the economy every year by staying in residential complexes. Most of them shop in Mercadona and Iceland, and stay in every night BBQ'ing sausages and drinking cheap plonk. IMHO The Canarian Government have realised they will bring far more revenue to the island by filling it with 5* hotels, and the subsequent spending power of the people who will stay in them. It may be a long term plan, but I think it is their aim.
The appropriate authorities have been contacted 2 weeks ago, with regards to illegal letting our complex, and I will report it on this thread when and if anything happens.
So people who SPEND money in the mercadona,Iceland or elsewhere don,t contribute to the economy, also travelling on Ryanair,getting Taxi,s to and from the airport or said supermarkets doesn,t help the economy.Its good to see that NIMBYISM is still alive and kicking over on the Golf, and not been left back in the Warrington area
Tom & Sharon
10-06-2011, 19:20
So people who SPEND money in the mercadona,Iceland or elsewhere don,t contribute to the economy, also travelling on Ryanair,getting Taxi,s to and from the airport or said supermarkets doesn,t help the economy.Its good to see that NIMBYISM is still alive and kicking over on the Golf, and not been left back in the Warrington area
No, AJP, they don't put as much money into the economy as those staying in hotels. That is for the simple reason that people illegally letting are taking the money into their English bank accounts, and it never sees the light of day in Spain, no taxes paid. What they spend in Mercadona is small fry in comparison.
On the other hand, book a hotel, money goes straight into the Spanish economy. If Frank & Angela from Bolton book an apartment on "Owners Direct" they pay the money in sterling straight to the owner in England, and the only money going into the Spanish economy is what they bring with them. If they stay in every night and cook, and drink cheap booze, they could easily stay for a week and spend only 200€.
Compare that to a legitimate hotel room, charging 500€ for the room for the week, plus the minimum 500€ spending money they would need, all going to the Spanish coffers, and it's a no-brainer for the Government.
If you were in charge of the Government balance sheet, which would you be in favour of?
If you wish to holiday in a residential property, then I suggest you buy your own. If you can't afford it, then I suggest you stay in a touristic complex, or a lovely 5* hotel. If you can't afford that, then please holiday elsewhere - Blackpool maybe.
Most of them shop in Mercadona and Iceland, and stay in every night BBQ'ing sausages and drinking cheap plonk.
.
What a nasty, bigoted, snobby and stuck up person you are!
Totally disagree T&S i know 12 people who have gone to the Reef today plus a few off the forum who for the next 2 weeks will be staying in prime residential properties with all the comforts of home, It would cost them at least double to stay in an average 4* hotel, multiply them by the 1000s arriving this week doing the same and a fair few bob will be going into the local economy. As i said in an earlier post on this thread i stayed in hotel La Siesta last week and it was great but i would have rather stayed in an apartment in the same location if im being honest. If all the illegal renting stopped overnight i think the economy would be worse off and the streets would be deserted.Also i have holidayed in Tenerife for years and i bet there are a load on here the same as me that didn't realise that some of the residential sites were not allowed to rent out their apartments,or that the majority of sites like Owners Abroad were breaking the rules. I know and you know it will never stop but i also understand your frustration.
Tom & Sharon
10-06-2011, 19:45
What a nasty, bigoted, snobby and stuck up person you are!
You're just missing the point that's all!
This thread is generating a huge amount of views: please could we refrain from denegrating anyone who chooses to holiday on this lovely island many of us now like to call home - the term ***** was new to me, having just looked it up (and being Irish), I find it just as distasteful as other words barred on here for describing ethnic groups :(
And back to the topic of the thread - I spoke with an agent this afternoon who had an appointment with Turismo in Santa Cruz yesterday to discuss the matter - she said it was made very clear to her, that the only people who could rent out villas are registered letting agents and apartments must go through the sole letting agent on the complex: she said they had huge piles of files of unregistered agents and owners renting out.
As I wasn't actually at the meeting, I cannot give any more details, I am afraid.
... and Sharon - those of us following the thread know that h/Hughsby owns a villa on a complex in Lanzarote :)
suzy-sue
10-06-2011, 19:52
No, AJP, they don't put as much money into the economy as those staying in hotels. That is for the simple reason that people illegally letting are taking the money into their English bank accounts, and it never sees the light of day in Spain, no taxes paid. What they spend in Mercadona is small fry in comparison.
On the other hand, book a hotel, money goes straight into the Spanish economy. If Frank & Angela from Bolton book an apartment on "Owners Direct" they pay the money in sterling straight to the owner in England, and the only money going into the Spanish economy is what they bring with them. If they stay in every night and cook, and drink cheap booze, they could easily stay for a week and spend only 200€.
Compare that to a legitimate hotel room, charging 500€ for the room for the week, plus the minimum 500€ spending money they would need, all going to the Spanish coffers, and it's a no-brainer for the Government.
If you were in charge of the Government balance sheet, which would you be in favour of?
We often Rent from a Private Rental company .The owner is a Tenerifian and the money does not go straight into an English bank account .We eat out every evening ,Spend loads of money in the shops on on Taxis and tours .Also we do not have any screaming kids .Thats why we prefer to stay where we do .Dont tar us all with the same brush .Oh and by the way We can afford to stay in 4-5 star hotels but its not so relaxing theres too many people .We work hard and if we want to rent a private apartment thats Still money in the Tenerife governments coffers .Like it or not .People like you need to stop being so anti british .Or you will be living in a Island no one wants to come to ,see where that gets you .If you dont like tourists why do you chose to live in a place where they go ?.Theres plenty of other places in the world .
You're just missing the point that's all!
I understand the point entirely - and in fact have no problem with a properly run system.
I object to being bracketed as a BBQ munching, Supermarket shopping low-life - (in comparison of course to yourself)! When the truth of the matter is that I am a hard working, self employed individual, with three kids, a dog a cat, two goldfish and a sizeable mortgage who is yet to be fortunate enough to buy my own apartment (however much I would love to) who has holidayed in Tenerife for the last ten years, spending thousands and thousands of Euros, staying in various apartments and never realising there was a difference between them.
I am following this thread to be educated - Not insulted!
carolethatch
10-06-2011, 20:01
No, AJP, they don't put as much money into the economy as those staying in hotels. That is for the simple reason that people illegally letting are taking the money into their English bank accounts, and it never sees the light of day in Spain, no taxes paid. What they spend in Mercadona is small fry in comparison.
On the other hand, book a hotel, money goes straight into the Spanish economy. If Frank & Angela from Bolton book an apartment on "Owners Direct" they pay the money in sterling straight to the owner in England, and the only money going into the Spanish economy is what they bring with them. If they stay in every night and cook, and drink cheap booze, they could easily stay for a week and spend only 200€.
Compare that to a legitimate hotel room, charging 500€ for the room for the week, plus the minimum 500€ spending money they would need, all going to the Spanish coffers, and it's a no-brainer for the Government.
If you were in charge of the Government balance sheet, which would you be in favour of?
I don't think I have ever read such a bitter, twisted posting in all the time I have been on here. The "tourists" you are knocking with such venom do not deserve this abuse just because one person on your complex (only one according to you) dared to let to people with children. Don't any of your residents have children then, in fact some of the residents on our complex who have children have the kids from hell.
Tom & Sharon
10-06-2011, 20:06
Totally disagree T&S i know 12 people who have gone to the Reef today plus a few off the forum who for the next 2 weeks will be staying in prime residential properties with all the comforts of home, It would cost them at least double to stay in an average 4* hotel, multiply them by the 1000s arriving this week doing the same and a fair few bob will be going into the local economy. As i said in an earlier post on this thread i stayed in hotel La Siesta last week and it was great but i would have rather stayed in an apartment in the same location if im being honest. If all the illegal renting stopped overnight i think the economy would be worse off and the streets would be deserted.Also i have holidayed in Tenerife for years and i bet there are a load on here the same as me that didn't realise that some of the residential sites were not allowed to rent out their apartments,or that the majority of sites like Owners Abroad were breaking the rules. I know and you know it will never stop but i also understand your frustration.
Thankyou for at least trying to understand our frustration with the situation.
I know I sound like a NIMBY, snob, bigot whatever you want to call it, but at the end of the day we bought in a residential complex. It's where people live, not where they holiday. People on here who think it's OK to flout the law, and holiday in someone's home complex make me so mad.
It isn't right of the offending owners to do it, and it certainly isn't right for people who want to holiday in them to try to substantiate it. Like I said previously - if you want to holiday in a residential complex, then you have to buy one. If you can't afford it, then I'm sorry, that's just tough. There are things in life we all want and can't have. And there is an alternative - namely hotels and touristic complexes.
The president on our complex feels even more strongly about it than we do. They have bought on a residential complex to retire and lead a peaceful existence. They did not choose to live in a holiday camp. They do not want people arriving day and night, making a noise and generally living as holiday makers do. That's not to say people shouldn't come to Tenerife and have a fantastic holiday, they should, but they should stay somewhere appropriate for their needs.
We were even woken up one night in the middle of the night by our night watchman, as some holiday makers were arriving, and he stopped them going in until he woke me up and asked me was it OK. I wonder if HughsyB et al get woken up in the middle of the night to be asked a question and have to walk down the street in their nightwear to sort it out? I doubt it, and if they did and it was a regular occurence, I wonder how much in favour of it they would be?
I may be a snob in their eyes, but I know who the selfish ones are!
As far as i am aware this law was introduced in 1995 but the Island was booming then and the law was never implemented,Estate agents and bar owners were rubbing their hands, there was more brown envelopes being handed around and no one batted an eyelid and im surprised Harry Redknapp never got in on the act,16 years down the line due to a worldwide recession the penny has finally dropped and all of a sudden its "How can we recoup some money" Why was none of this mentioned on here 1 or 2 years ago. On another note we always stayed in either Parque 1 or 2 in a top of the range apartment and because they are well run communities you could hear a pin drop of a night time and of a day it was just happy holiday makers enjoying their jollies. The more i read this thread the more i want this law to fail.
ali marshall
10-06-2011, 20:44
Thankyou for at least trying to understand our frustration with the situation.
I know I sound like a NIMBY, snob, bigot whatever you want to call it, but at the end of the day we bought in a residential complex. It's where people live, not where they holiday. People on here who think it's OK to flout the law, and holiday in someone's home complex make me so mad.
It isn't right of the offending owners to do it, and it certainly isn't right for people who want to holiday in them to try to substantiate it. Like I said previously - if you want to holiday in a residential complex, then you have to buy one. If you can't afford it, then I'm sorry, that's just tough. There are things in life we all want and can't have. And there is an alternative - namely hotels and touristic complexes.
The president on our complex feels even more strongly about it than we do. They have bought on a residential complex to retire and lead a peaceful existence. They did not choose to live in a holiday camp. They do not want people arriving day and night, making a noise and generally living as holiday makers do. That's not to say people shouldn't come to Tenerife and have a fantastic holiday, they should, but they should stay somewhere appropriate for their needs.
We were even woken up one night in the middle of the night by our night watchman, as some holiday makers were arriving, and he stopped them going in until he woke me up and asked me was it OK. I wonder if HughsyB et al get woken up in the middle of the night to be asked a question and have to walk down the street in their nightwear to sort it out? I doubt it, and if they did and it was a regular occurence, I wonder how much in favour of it they would be?
I may be a snob in their eyes, but I know who the selfish ones are!
I dont think it is selfish of people staying in residential complexs.To be honest when many of these places are advertised do they state they are on a residential complex.I wouuld rather belive that it down to the actually holiday maker who is staying and if they have respect for other people on the complex.For example,i may want to come and stay in las siesta and have a quiet week away,but then have kids staying next door shouting and screaming,or a young couple going to veronicas every night,coming back all hour slamming doors and arguing.
Everyone deserves a holiday,its very easy saying if you cannot afford to buy a apartment you should use a tour operator.When my 3 boys where younger and we booked with a tour operator,we was looking at between 2 to 2 and half thousand for a holiday.(not forgetting you not allowed to take them out on school time so prices are then sky high)One child would go free and 3rd child would be classed as a adult.
We then found an apartment in majorca on a resdiential complex and with the flights it use to cost us just over a thousand for 2 weeks.This was the only way we could afford a holiday.Okay maybe you think we should not have a holiday and its tough if familys cannot afford to pay 2 to 2 and half grand,but with 3 small kids i needed a break and at the end of it we just could not afford to pay them prices.
We did respect the people who owned an apartment there and going every year my kids made friends with the local children.
On my complex i know of 2 apartments that are rented out privatly.I have never heard any noise from the pool or the apartment because of holiday makers.To be honest the spanish family who sit on there balcony and talk at full volume drives me more crazy.Also we have a girl who lives on the complex and when she speaks you can hear her a mile away.We have a father that comes on here every morning at 7 am and 10 pm shouting into the intercom as well grrr
I find the residence here much more noisey than holiday makers,least holiday if makers are only here for a short time its not too bad,but if you buy somewhere and you got neighbours from hell you dont stand a chance.Also how many complexs have no kids lol,must be around 40 on mine and in the summer its a nightmare.
We live in a community in tenerife,not in a house on a hill,so we have to put up with some noise either from locals or holiday makers.I do agree with people not putting rent profit into the system,but if they clamp down on this i think we are not gonna see so many familys having holidays here, as family cannot afford tour operator prices.Just my opiuon but if you was a restaurant owner would you rather have a large family in a all inclusive or come into your restaurant to eat??Is that not helping the trade here?
I find it amazing how many people I meet who forget how long I have been around and they moan and moan about holiday makers when they have either rented their own places or have thought of running an agency themselves!
Get off your high horses and be thankful you can live somewhere nice and other people can only afford a week or two!
As far as i am aware this law was introduced in 1995 but the Island was booming then and the law was never implemented,Estate agents and bar owners were rubbing their hands, there was more brown envelopes being handed around and no one batted an eyelid and im surprised Harry Redknapp never got in on the act,16 years down the line due to a worldwide recession the penny has finally dropped and all of a sudden its "How can we recoup some money" Why was none of this mentioned on here 1 or 2 years ago. On another note we always stayed in either Parque 1 or 2 in a top of the range apartment and because they are well run communities you could hear a pin drop of a night time and of a day it was just happy holiday makers enjoying their jollies. The more i read this thread the more i want this law to fail.
It was being mentioned on here - in the early days of the forum, I recall various arguments with with PeterR (and a Mod no longer with us) on one side and me on the other, discussing it - then "commercial" letting did not include, according to some, the famous Family & Friends welcomed via internet :( Remember, I opened the old thread with the words "finally" ... as it was much discussed, but never believed anything would be done.
I first knew of the law even before I bought here - having seen two page ads in the Freebies saying Los Gigantes was dying due to the law ... it was well known too that Playa Graciosa was somewhere you had no chance of doing holiday rentals. My first even internet rental was in Parque Tropical, and the owner warned me to say I was a "friend" to anyone who asked and there were signs saying it was a Residential Complex and no Holiday Lettings allowed - that was 2004.
If we were to go back over Loaded's posts on here too, I know you will find mentions of it in the last 2 years - just then, no one wanted to listen :(
ali marshall
10-06-2011, 21:07
I think people forget we live in a community,be it holiday makers or noisey neighbours.If you cant handle either then maybe people should not buy on complexs ,rather a home in the hills.
I had neighbours from hell for over a year and was nothing i could do about it,but hey we are in tenerife, not in a small village in the uk or a retirement home.
Every one is either trying to save money or make money and i say good luck to them.After all its money that makes the world go round.
Fair comment Doreen, I don't think it helps when the law is about as clear as mud with many grey area's that a top notch Baltimore lawyer would be scratching his head at.I also think it would have helped all concerned if the "Powers that be" put full page ads in the press and large advertising hoardings up all over the show,the cynical side of me thinks they don't want to cause mass panic and want to keep things low profile...mmmm just a thought!
Finally, I think someone has shown their true colours. (Tom and/or Sharon)
If you hate holiday makers so much and think you are above them I would recommend find a more remote place to live in Tenerife rather than a holiday destination.
If you can not afford to do this I suggest you try to get along with everyone. It is called socialising.
Life is too short to be this bitter.
If you wish to holiday in a residential property, then I suggest you buy your own. If you can't afford it, then I suggest you stay in a touristic complex, or a lovely 5* hotel. If you can't afford that, then please holiday elsewhere - Blackpool maybe.
It is pathetic to hide behind the excuse that people bring millions of euros to the economy every year by staying in residential complexes. Most of them shop in Mercadona and Iceland, and stay in every night BBQ'ing sausages and drinking cheap plonk. IMHO The Canarian Government have realised they will bring far more revenue to the island by filling it with 5* hotels, and the subsequent spending power of the people who will stay in them. It may be a long term plan, but I think it is their aim.
I think this is one of the worst statements to make about to the thousands of tourists that choose to come to the holiday Island of Tenerife many of whom do not know they are booking thier accomodation on a residential complex, who the hell are you to tell these people, who have one ( if they are lucky) holiday a year that the government would rather they stay in a hotel and spend thier money there than book accomadation independently and spend in the local supermarkets and bars and believe you me they spend,theres not many apartment cookers get used on the properties we manage.
I live and choose to live in a residential area,a few villas around me holiday let and i think theres nothing better than hearing the children having fun,adults having a good laugh..........its called enjoyment
For all of you who plan to come to Tenerife for your holidays,come on over,Tenerife needs you because what some of you out there seem to forget is without these lovely people alot of us could not survive.
I ♥ Pea soup & some of the Star Wars films
cheers
pfft
x
Peterrayner
10-06-2011, 22:36
It was being mentioned on here - in the early days of the forum, I recall various arguments with with PeterR (and a Mod no longer with us) on one side and me on the other, discussing it - then "commercial" letting did not include, according to some, the famous Family & Friends welcomed via internet :( Remember, I opened the old thread with the words "finally" ... as it was much discussed, but never believed anything would be done.
I first knew of the law even before I bought here - having seen two page ads in the Freebies saying Los Gigantes was dying due to the law ... it was well known too that Playa Graciosa was somewhere you had no chance of doing holiday rentals. My first even internet rental was in Parque Tropical, and the owner warned me to say I was a "friend" to anyone who asked and there were signs saying it was a Residential Complex and no Holiday Lettings allowed - that was 2004.
If we were to go back over Loaded's posts on here too, I know you will find mentions of it in the last 2 years - just then, no one wanted to listen :(
Yes D we have been discussing this for years it seems. ??? I have been aware of their existence for at least 8 years .
My original position was influenced by my membership of Ciudadnos Europeos who were then fighting against the 1995 Letting Laws through the EU courts and my views were also influenced by their advice that family and friends lettings were allowed under the decree referenced below.
We in Ciudadanos Europeos offer guidance based on our collective nationwide experience on community law and our regional experience on law 7/1995.
We, despite our 10-year consultation with Turismo and a whole bevy of lawyers, take a cautious view of some aspects of Law 7/1995 and its subsequent amendments because we are not aware of any legal action taken against any owner renting to tourists within the provisions of Decree 93/1998. There is very little other case law on renting to tourists.
Hubert Burridge
President, Ciudadanos Europeos, Canary Islands
Playa de las Americas
May 2005
My view on the use of the internet advertising at that time was similarly influenced by the apparent limited restrictions on local advertising of non touristic property for short lets as per relevant article of the 1995 Letting Law
Article 42 c) They cannot be included in catalogues or commercial material in travel agencies."
The law was drafted before the widespread use of internet holiday sites so they were not specifically included and I also failed to see how a local law could be enforced against a UK based internet website.
So therefore my position was renting to "family and friends" was clearly allowed, and given that in the 10 years since the law was passed there had been no attempts to establish any legal precedent as to what the definition of a friend was, it was reasonable to presume this included any aquaintances or friends no matter how they were derived and the authorities had apparently little or no intentions of enforcing any restrictions at that time.
Clearly things have changed and it would seem the authorities have decided to act (for what ever reason but perhaps thats irrelevant its there country and we must abide by their decisions).
I would however hope that they can see that they have some responsibilty for the mess we all find ourselves in, given it has taken them 16 years to reach this conclusion, and at least recognise this in any future actions.
Angusjim
11-06-2011, 08:43
Finally, I think someone has shown their true colours. (Tom and/or Sharon)
If you hate holiday makers so much and think you are above them I would recommend find a more remote place to live in Tenerife rather than a holiday destination.
If you can not afford to do this I suggest you try to get along with everyone. It is called socialising.
Life is too short to be this bitter.
In fairness to Sharon ( although I do have dificulty in the way she she puts over some of her points ) if you knew where her beautiful house is situated it is NOT in a tourist area.I think her main gripe is that she specifically bought this new build house in this location for various reasons one being that she was SPECIFiCALLY told that no holiday letting was allowed on the complex and also confirmed this was correct. I think one big mistake she makes is insulting and classifying ALL holiday makers on a class basis after all " WE'ER A JOCK TAMSONS BAIRNS" ( although I think we have all suffered at the hands of some inconsiderate holidaymakers at some time ). Finally having met Tom & Sharon and family they certainly are not nasty, bigoted,snobby or stuck up I found them to be a very very nice friendly normal family who made us feel very welcome in their beautiful home. I think just frustrated at the situatuion they find themselves in.
delderek
11-06-2011, 09:33
Just to defend Tourists I can honestly say that in 17 years of owning my apartment on Royal Palm (yes it does have a tourist licence) and spending 5 or 6 months each year staying there, I can honestly say that I was only ever disturbed 3 or 4 times in all that period.
golf birdie
11-06-2011, 10:00
NIMBY'S on here. I remember on the old forum someone asking for a holiday let in Winter gardens for their family. Now correct me if I'm wrong but winter gardens is not a holiday complex is it. Seems some wants it as it suits as they now want parts of Tenerife cleared of all tourist :rolleyes:
Tom & Sharon
11-06-2011, 10:50
In fairness to Sharon ( although I do have dificulty in the way she she puts over some of her points ) if you knew where her beautiful house is situated it is NOT in a tourist area.I think her main gripe is that she specifically bought this new build house in this location for various reasons one being that she was SPECIFiCALLY told that no holiday letting was allowed on the complex and also confirmed this was correct. I think one big mistake she makes is insulting and classifying ALL holiday makers on a class basis after all " WE'ER A JOCK TAMSONS BAIRNS" ( although I think we have all suffered at the hands of some inconsiderate holidaymakers at some time ). Finally having met Tom & Sharon and family they certainly are not nasty, bigoted,snobby or stuck up I found them to be a very very nice friendly normal family who made us feel very welcome in their beautiful home. I think just frustrated at the situatuion they find themselves in.
Thank you Jim. You understand our frustration because you have been to our house. People are mis-reading what I put, although I admit I sound very opinionated and forceful in the way that I write.
I do not "hate all holidaymakers", that is a ludicrous statement. Of course I don't! My only point is that they should be in tourist accommodation, and after all, that is what the law says.
NIMBY'S on here. I remember on the old forum someone asking for a holiday let in Winter gardens for their family. Now correct me if I'm wrong but winter gardens is not a holiday complex is it. Seems some wants it as it suits as they now want parts of Tenerife cleared of all tourist :rolleyes:
When I asked for Winter Gardens it was for a long term let for Jan/Feb/Mar as allowed under the legislation.
golf birdie
11-06-2011, 12:06
so all the 5* hotels were full :rolleyes:
Angusjim
11-06-2011, 12:10
Can you not read she answered you her mother was looking for a LONG TERM LET:crazy:
she was SPECIFiCALLY told that no holiday letting was allowed on the complex and also confirmed this was correct.
Who specifically told her and confirmed this was correct?
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 12:51
I do not "hate all holidaymakers", that is a ludicrous statement. Of course I don't! My only point is that they should be in tourist accommodation, and after all, that is what the law says.
At the risk of being pedantic the law says "tourists" must be in tourist accommodation.
Tourist activities are are those companies that lend a service of accommodation from an establishment open to the public for a price. It is understood that lending a service of tourist accommodation is when a stay in an establishment is offered liberally and of a temporary form, without the person accommodated having changed their permanent residence.
A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
and it specifically uses the word "companies" hence why I have always stated that "commercial lettings" only are illegal.
So therefore my family and friends staying as invited guests not paying a commercial rental are outside this definition IMHO and I do consider that my invited guests may be holidaymakers but NOT tourists under the above definition within the 1995 laws.
They arent buying any services from me nor am I providing any. They havent bought a package from me or a flight through me and I am not providing them with meals or excursions etc etc. nor am I charging them a rental on a commercial basis.
In this respect I also feel they are perfectly entitled to enjoy all the facilitites available as they are resident on the complex during there stay and our Adminstrators agreed with me on this point that all "residents" are entitled to this not just "full time residents" and they have confirmed also they are covered by our public libility insurance.
At the risk of being pedantic the law says "tourists"
So therefore my family and friends staying as invited guests not paying a commercial rental are outside this definition IMHO and I do consider that my invited guests may be holidaymakers but NOT tourists under the above definition within the 1995 laws.
They arent buying any services from me nor am I providing any. They havent bought a package from me or a flight through me and I am not providing them with meals or excursions etc etc. nor am I charging them a rental on a commercial basis.
In this respect I also feel they are perfectly entitled to enjoy all the facilitites available as they are resident on the complex during there stay and our Adminstrstors agreed with me on this point that all "residents" are entitled to this not just "full time residents" and they have confirmed also they are covered by our public libility insurance.
In that case Peterrayner, I'd like to be a friend or family member of yours and get my free holidays at your place ;):D
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 13:14
When I asked for Winter Gardens it was for a long term let for Jan/Feb/Mar as allowed under the legislation.
It might well have been a legal long term let IF they had signed a rental contract with a valid NIE number or there is an opinion that says if they are EU citizens then a EU passport number might also be valid.
It might also been a valid short term let so lets test my theory above.
IF you had personally known someone who owned on the complex and approached them direct and asked if your parents could use the apartment, he/she might well have invited them to stay and your parents could have offered to meet his/her reasonable expenses and costs.
Then your parents wouldnt be classed as tourists, the owner hadnt advertised or offered any touristic services on a commercial basis ( ie at a price),
Added after 2 minutes:
In that case Peterrayner, I'd like to be a friend or family member of yours and get my free holidays at your place ;):D
Many of my family and friends do stay for free and some offer to help towards my costs.
Your question though is very valid. How and where do we make friends that are then acceptable under the law ????? Thats what is missing from the equation because it hasnt been tested (yet) in law but I suspect that may be because it is impossible to do so.
PS I am very very selective about who are my friends :) my family I have no control over.
i showed this thread to a barrister friend of mine (albeit an Irish one). He reckons this law would be virtually unenforceable (regardless of the intricacies of definitions) unless the apartment owners are also full time residents. He and I would be very interested if anyone could tell us if any cases have been brought against owners and what the outcome was?
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 13:53
i showed this thread to a barrister friend of mine (albeit an Irish one). He reckons this law would be virtually unenforceable (regardless of the intricacies of definitions) unless the apartment owners are also full time residents. He and I would be very interested if anyone could tell us if any cases have been brought against owners and what the outcome was?
Yes agreed. If a full time resident owned multiple residential properties and was allowing large amounts of short term lets I doubt very much he/she could argue it was not commercial. So my recent posts were based on a non resident using a single property ownership
Having said that I know a full time resident on our complex who owns a second apartment but it is only ever used by his 2 daughters and their children so interestingly I dont see how they could be classed as "tourists" even though they are clearly "holidaymakers".
That then leaves the question of non residents who are also multiple owners ?
We own 2 apartments (separate complexes) but one is on a permanent long term let with a rental contract and the other is our holiday home for family and friends use only.
If I used both for substantial amounts of short lets I think I would have difficult persuading a judge it wasnt on a commercial basis.
Tom & Sharon
11-06-2011, 14:24
so all the 5* hotels were full :rolleyes:
It's funny you should say that, because in the end they ended up staying in Aguamarina Hotel. This was because after struggling to find somewhere, and paying a deposit, the owners changed their minds, as they could make more money from illegal short term lets. I gave up and just booked them in a hotel instead. Much easier!
Who specifically told her and confirmed this was correct?
It's a residential complex. No confirmation required - it's the law! :wall::wall::wall:
In this respect I also feel they are perfectly entitled to enjoy all the facilitites available as they are resident on the complex during there stay and our Adminstrators agreed with me on this point that all "residents" are entitled to this not just "full time residents" and they have confirmed also they are covered by our public libility insurance.
Our administrator says the same for family & friends, but has stated that people who "commercially" let via the internet are not.
It might well have been a legal long term let IF they had signed a rental contract with a valid NIE number
They have Peter, they live in Murcia. They wanted to come to Tenerife to escape the worst of the Spanish winter!
The English dictionary definition of "commercial":-
com·mer·cial
[kuh-mur-shuhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of commerce.
2.
engaged in commerce.
3.
prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success: a commercial product; His attitude toward the theater is very commercial.
So, if someone is advertising an apartment for rental on the internet, therefore not family and friends, and is selling that week/fortnight for profit, then that is a commercial letting - yes?
It's funny you should say that, because in the end they ended up staying in Aguamarina Hotel. This was because after struggling to find somewhere, and paying a deposit, the owners changed their minds, as they could make more money from illegal short term lets. I gave up and just booked them in a hotel instead. Much easier!
It's a residential complex. No confirmation required - it's the law! :wall::wall::wall:
Our administrator says the same for family & friends, but has stated that people who "commercially" let via the internet are not.
They have Peter, they live in Murcia. They wanted to come to Tenerife to escape the worst of the Spanish winter!
The English dictionary definition of "commercial":-
com·mer·cial
[kuh-mur-shuhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of commerce.
2.
engaged in commerce.
3.
prepared, done, or acting with sole or chief emphasis on salability, profit, or success: a commercial product; His attitude toward the theater is very commercial.
So, if someone is advertising an apartment for rental on the internet, therefore not family and friends, and is selling that week/fortnight for profit, then that is a commercial letting - yes?
Why do we have to keep shouting?
can't we just write normally?
It's a residential complex. No confirmation required - it's the law! :wall::wall::wall:
Sharon, why don't you just own up and admit you made a mistake. If you didn't know the law wasn't being enforced when you bought the apartment, then you didn't do your research. Easily done, you aren't the first and you won't be the last.
If you did know the law wasn't being enforced but still went ahead with a purchase, just shut up and accept it.
The longer this thread continues the clearer it becomes that until the fines start arriving nobody will believe that the law is going to be enforced. Several rental agents have already been fined and it won't be long before the owners who have being advertising on the web and through local agents will get their knock at the door, before you rush to tell me that I am all sorts of nasty piece of work,I don't want anybody fined just want people to take heed of the warnings they are getting on the forum.I keep reading that the Spanish won't do this and the Spanish don't do that etc., but believe me when it comes to issuing fines they are the very best!!! Ignorance of the law doesn't wash here any more than in the rest of the civilized world and your Irish lawyer will get a lesson in just how easy it is to make a law stick.People (Spanish) are already trying to fight the law because many of them have already being fined(not just directed at Brits) and they are hoping to go to the European Courts but it will take them a long time to get a ruling and because the Spanish Courts can prove good reason for the law they will more than likely win( using security as the main issue).The police say that while they used to know who was on the island (passports taken by reception desks etc.) these days they have no idea who is here and where they are staying.
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 15:25
So, if someone is advertising an apartment for rental on the internet, therefore not family and friends, and is selling that week/fortnight for profit, then that is a commercial letting - yes?
Let me answer that this way. Lets assume a goverment offical, or someone acting on their behalf, made the booking with you via an internet advert and paid you an agreed rental to secure a weeks booking it would then be very difficult to persuade a judge they were also your friends. :)
it won't be long before the owners who have being advertising on the web and through local agents will get their knock at the door
Just one question fonica. What are the 17 enforcers waiting for? Have they run out of door knockers?
Just one question fonica. What are the 17 enforcers waiting for? Have they run out of door knockers?
They can't even find the milk in Mercadona! :doh:
and your Irish lawyer will get a lesson in just how easy it is to make a law stick.
??? :confused::confused:
Added after 4 minutes:
The police say that while they used to know who was on the island (passports taken by reception desks etc.) these days they have no idea who is here and where they are staying.
Just thought I should point out that under Spanish law ( since the Madrid bombings), it is a requirement of airlines to furnish the Spanish authorities with the details of all passengers(including passport details)prior to the flight leaving the country of origin. Meanwhile, back on the subject, how would the illegal letting law be enforced if the apartment owner is not a resident of the island?
??? :confused::confused:
Added after 4 minutes:
Just thought I should point out that under Spanish law ( since the Madrid bombings), it is a requirement of airlines to furnish the Spanish authorities with the details of all passengers(including passport details)prior to the flight leaving the country of origin. Meanwhile, back on the subject, how would the illegal letting law be enforced if the apartment owner is not a resident of the island?
That would be a simple process known as an 'embargo'.
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 16:40
That would be a simple process known as an 'embargo'.
I hope that its more effective than the "embargo" the courts have placed on an apartment on our complex over 18 months ago for non payment of community fees, water and sewage charges for the past 6 years.
The culprit is still living freely in the apartment without any hinderance or any apparent care in the world and we are still waiting for our money.
Fonica check in online 15 days before departure.Dont need to know where your staying they know what time you arive.
That would be a simple process known as an 'embargo'.
An embargo on what?
Red Devil
11-06-2011, 16:51
And I hope they will tell you. I also hope they heavily fine the owner of the residential property in which you stop. It will serve them right.
If you wish to holiday in a residential property, then I suggest you buy your own. If you can't afford it, then I suggest you stay in a touristic complex, or a lovely 5* hotel. If you can't afford that, then please holiday elsewhere - Blackpool maybe.
It is pathetic to hide behind the excuse that people bring millions of euros to the economy every year by staying in residential complexes. Most of them shop in Mercadona and Iceland, and stay in every night BBQ'ing sausages and drinking cheap plonk. IMHO The Canarian Government have realised they will bring far more revenue to the island by filling it with 5* hotels, and the subsequent spending power of the people who will stay in them. It may be a long term plan, but I think it is their aim.
The appropriate authorities have been contacted 2 weeks ago, with regards to illegal letting our complex, and I will report it on this thread when and if anything happens.
Am I right in thinking that a denuncia is being served to a private individual by the committee where you live? If so, this has been done occasionally in the past and has nothing to do with any new tightening of the law by tourist board or whoever.
If the committee of a residential complex wants to stop any holiday lets they have always had this option- however as this just hasnt happened in places such as El Mirador, Dinastia and many others one can only assume the committees realise it would probably be against the wishes of the majority of owners, so there would be no point.
An embargo on what?
The property that is being illegally let.
Tom & Sharon
11-06-2011, 17:57
Sharon, why don't you just own up and admit you made a mistake. If you didn't know the law wasn't being enforced when you bought the apartment, then you didn't do your research. Easily done, you aren't the first and you won't be the last.
If you did know the law wasn't being enforced but still went ahead with a purchase, just shut up and accept it.
But which one of us has actually made a mistake here? It isn't us I can assure you. We love our home and the complex it is on, and wish to keep it as lovely as it is now. We bought off plan, as did most of the neighbours and the majority are determined that it will run as a "residential community of owners". As has already been mentioned on here, there are developments such as Playa Graciosa where short term holiday lets will not be tolerated. I assure you, ours will join that list.
Just because the law hasn't always been widely enforced, doesn't mean that will always be the case. This I firmly believe is what is happening now, although you seem to believe that you will continue to be able to flout the law. If I am right, and you are wrong, who has made the mistake? We didn't buy ours with the intention of ever renting it out. You on the other hand, for whatever reason, appear to have bought yours with a view to making a commercial profit. If the law suddenly begins to be enforced, where will that leave you? Because we'll be sitting pretty!
Am I right in thinking that a denuncia is being served to a private individual by the committee where you live? If so, this has been done occasionally in the past and has nothing to do with any new tightening of the law by tourist board or whoever.
If the committee of a residential complex wants to stop any holiday lets they have always had this option- however as this just hasnt happened in places such as El Mirador, Dinastia and many others one can only assume the committees realise it would probably be against the wishes of the majority of owners, so there would be no point.
It has been taken out by one private individual against another. The community rules are being written at the moment though, and in those it will state that a denuncia will be taken out, by the community, against any individual who commercially lets on a short term basis.
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 18:00
Am I right in thinking that a denuncia is being served to a private individual by the committee where you live? If so, this has been done occasionally in the past and has nothing to do with any new tightening of the law by tourist board or whoever.
If the committee of a residential complex wants to stop any holiday lets they have always had this option- however as this just hasnt happened in places such as El Mirador, Dinastia and many others one can only assume the committees realise it would probably be against the wishes of the majority of owners, so there would be no point.
IIRC no its NOT being served by the Committee or the President of the community but by an individual owner against another which is correct procedure.
It is not for the Committee or the President of any community to seek to enforce civil laws thats a matter for individuals involved and the authorities.
The President (and the committee) are only tasked with enforcing the Law of Horizontal Property and representing the community legally and financially.
Added after 3 minutes:
The community rules are being written at the moment though, and in those it will state that a denuncia will be taken out, by the community, against any individual who commercially lets on a short term basis.
That rule would have no legal basis and is unenforcable IMHO. Nor can you use community funds to enforce such rules...thats beyond the powers of the community and is itself illegal I think.
Red Devil
11-06-2011, 18:32
IIRC no its NOT being served by the Committee or the President of the community but by an individual owner against another which is correct procedure.
It is not for the Committee or the President of any community to seek to enforce civil laws thats a matter for individuals involved and the authorities.
The President (and the committee) are only tasked with enforcing the Law of Horizontal Property and representing the community legally and financially.
Added after 3 minutes:
That rule would have no legal basis and is unenforcable IMHO. Nor can you use community funds to enforce such rules...thats beyond the powers of the community and is itself illegal I think.
Sorry yes you are correct, an individual rather than a committee. I was assuming the president would have been the one serving the denuncia but it obviously isn't.
I was trying to illustrate that Tom/Sharons course of action has always been available and nothing to do with new "illegal lettings inspectors"
What does IIRC mean please?
atlantico
11-06-2011, 18:38
What does IIRC mean please?
let me google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=IIRC+)
click the link
and its not International Integrated Reporting Committee
The property that is being illegally let.
How do you enforce that particulary, as I said already, if the owner is a non resident?
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 20:02
Sorry yes you are correct, an individual rather than a committee. I was assuming the president would have been the one serving the denuncia but it obviously isn't.
I was trying to illustrate that Tom/Sharons course of action has always been available and nothing to do with new "illegal lettings inspectors"
What does IIRC mean please?
IIRC = If I recall correctly
Yes I agree not only has that always been available it is the only correct way IMHO ( in my humble opinion :))
so once again we need to ask why if thats always been available have there been no prosecution on the island for illegal lettings.
Well my answer would be this.
i) Previously the authorities had little incentive and even less resources.
ii) It could be an expensive excercise for an individual.
ii) It could be difficult to prove particularly against a single ownership non resident.
iii) the restrictions in the 1995 Law might well prove to be unconstitutional.
jogger321
11-06-2011, 20:11
IIRC no its NOT being served by the Committee or the President of the community but by an individual owner against another which is correct procedure.
It is not for the Committee or the President of any community to seek to enforce civil laws thats a matter for individuals involved and the authorities.
The President (and the committee) are only tasked with enforcing the Law of Horizontal Property and representing the community legally and financially.
Added after 3 minutes:
That rule would have no legal basis and is unenforcable IMHO. Nor can you use community funds to enforce such rules...thats beyond the powers of the community and is itself illegal I think.
I'm interested in your last point Peter and would challenge it, especially with regards Playa Graciosa . Ignoring the "inspector events" of the last six months, this does not explain the total absence of holiday lettings/advertisments on this complex. You could argue that as a vehicle to purely make money given its location etc Graciosa would do extremely well for holiday lets, yet there are zero/zilch available even before the inspectors.
I'm also wondering what the liability of Presidents and their committees truly is if proven that they were aware and therefore complicit/party to the complex being run illegally if residential and permitting wide spread holiday letting use.
Peterrayner
11-06-2011, 20:55
I'm interested in your last point Peter and would challenge it, especially with regards Playa Graciosa . Ignoring the "inspector events" of the last six months, this does not explain the total absence of holiday lettings/advertisments on this complex. You could argue that as a vehicle to purely make money given its location etc Graciosa would do extremely well for holiday lets, yet there are zero/zilch available even before the inspectors.
I'm also wondering what the liability of Presidents and their committees truly is if proven that they were aware and therefore complicit/party to the complex being run illegally if residential and permitting wide spread holiday letting use.
My view would be that a President and the community could be held liable if they were actually complicit in or party to commercial short term lettings and by that I would mean either acting directly as a 3rd party letting agent or a mangement company.
Beyond that I dont think a President or community should, or even has the power to, police the activities of individual owners other than to respect and abide by the community rules under the Law of Horizontal Property.
Our President and committee have arranged for several signs to be erected, throughout the complex at all entrances, warning owners that commercial short term letting activity is illegal but beyond that we have not ventured nor do I personally think we should.
As to your assertion that being "aware" of illegal activity would carry some liability for the community, how is merely being aware possible? Surely we would have to establish irrefutable proof but I think thats beyond both our duties and responsibilities.
Thats why they have appointed the inspectors surely.
I cannot comment directly on Playa Graciosa as I have no direct knowledge of the community or the complex. I would imagine however that if the situation exists as you describe it then that must be acceptable to the vast majority of the owners, resident and non resident alike, otherwise there would be great conflict and tension.
Communities tend to be democratic environments in my experience where the concensus views will rule rather than the dictatorial wishes of a committee or President.
As has already been mentioned on here, there are developments ........ where short term holiday lets will not be tolerated. I assure you, ours will join that list.
The community rules are being written at the moment though, and in those it will state that a denuncia will be taken out, by the community, against any individual who commercially lets on a short term basis.
You really need to listen to Peter on this as a community has no such power to do that.
Your current denuncia will be gathering dust at the moment along with all the others that have been issued over the years.
So when you say holiday lets will not be tolerated, what exactly are you going to do about them?
Ignoring the "inspector events" of the last six months, this does not explain the total absence of holiday lettings/advertisments on this complex. You could argue that as a vehicle to purely make money given its location etc Graciosa would do extremely well for holiday lets, yet there are zero/zilch available even before the inspectors.
Errm
There aren't many but....
http://www.tenerife-hols.co.uk/pr207/playa-graciosa-los-cristianos/ref-72453.html
http://holidayrentals.themovechannel.com/AdvertSummary.aspx?ref=72453
http://www.tenerifeislandrentals.com/property-information/19/Apartment/Los%20Cristianos
And advertised for sale as ''Ideal for holiday Rentals!
http://www.tenerifepropertyshop.com/los_cristianos-98.htm
jogger321
11-06-2011, 22:10
My view would be that a President and the community could be held liable if they were actually complicit in or party to commercial short term lettings and by that I would mean either acting directly as a 3rd party letting agent or a mangement company.
Beyond that I dont think a President or community should, or even has the power to, police the activities of individual owners other than to respect and abide by the community rules under the Law of Horizontal Property.
Our President and committee have arranged for several signs to be erected, throughout the complex at all entrances, warning owners that commercial short term letting activity is illegal but beyond that we have not ventured nor do I personally think we should.
As to your assertion that being "aware" of illegal activity would carry some liability for the community, how is merely being aware possible? Surely we would have to establish irrefutable proof but I think thats beyond both our duties and responsibilities.
Thats why they have appointed the inspectors surely.
I cannot comment directly on Playa Graciosa as I have no direct knowledge of the community or the complex. I would imagine however that if the situation exists as you describe it then that must be acceptable to the vast majority of the owners, resident and non resident alike, otherwise there would be great conflict and tension.
Communities tend to be democratic environments in my experience where the concensus views will rule rather than the dictatorial wishes of a committee or President.
I think I mentioned in a previous post that I was advised that signs were put up about 6 years ago at El Mirador stating that holiday lettings were illegal on the complex. This was I was told put up by the president and committee to "cover their backsides" even though the then president and members of the committee were involved in holiday letting.
Playa Graciosa is an interesting one because although I appreciate your own communitie(s) may operate in a democratic environment we all know that there are many investors who would buy a handful of apartments on a complex if there was money to be made and would not give a damn about the well being of other residents..and would not even live there themselves.
The fact that it has not been done on Graciosa for holiday lettings tells me something
Added after 1 2 minutes:
Errm
There aren't many but....
http://www.tenerife-hols.co.uk/pr207/playa-graciosa-los-cristianos/ref-72453.html
http://holidayrentals.themovechannel.com/AdvertSummary.aspx?ref=72453
http://www.tenerifeislandrentals.com/property-information/19/Apartment/Los%20Cristianos
And advertised for sale as ''Ideal for holiday Rentals!
http://www.tenerifepropertyshop.com/los_cristianos-98.htm
Thanks for that. I retract that about Graciosa and now acknowledge that holiday letting appears to be going on there too!
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 01:24
http://www.tenerife-hols.co.uk
interesting :0
This is clearly a managment company offering short lets in apartments on a commercial basis on several well know and popular residential sites using internet advertising and it would also appear to include apartments on touristic sites but without the sole agency explotation rights, all based in UK.
How on earth are the authorities going to prosecute them ??
In reality they probably cant so they will have to "contact" the individual owners directly which wouldnt be difficult and which given the recent developments reported here might throw some light on the issue.
Angusjim
12-06-2011, 08:47
A question to all who argue that the law will never be enforced would you buy a property on a residential complex at the moment with a view to doing holiday lets
A question to all who argue that the law will never be enforced would you buy a property on a residential complex at the moment with a view to doing holiday lets
There are a couple of complexes I would consider but for the most part - no.
But on the touristic side I would want a complex where I can "do my own thing" and don´t have to hand MY apartment over to some company who will pay me whatever they feel like from one month to the next. From the sounds of things there seems to be a fair bit of abuse going on with touristic exploitacion/sole agencies.
A question to all who argue that the law will never be enforced would you buy a property on a residential complex at the moment with a view to doing holiday lets
I certainly wouldn't buy residential or touristic on this island again.We are approaching the summer season when very few sales occur,this year will be even worse,especially when all this lot eventually comes to light in other country's.
What a crazy situation this is all becoming.Absolutely no clarity and it could only happen here.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 09:07
There are a couple of complexes I would consider but for the most part - no.
But on the touristic side I would want a complex where I can "do my own thing" and don´t have to hand MY apartment over to some company who will pay me whatever they feel like from one month to the next. From the sounds of things there seems to be a fair bit of abuse going on with touristic exploitacion/sole agencies.
I would agree with CIM
I certainly wouldnt buy an apartment on a touristic complex I just wouldnt be happy buying into a situation where someone had a monopoly control over the business.
As to the residential then if your buying to rent commercially and advertise then NO not now.
However if you want to use it extensively yourself and allow family and friends to contribute to your expenses occassionally then YES best thing we ever did.
Are you still looking to buy or has all this put you off ???
Angusjim
12-06-2011, 09:14
I would agree with CIM
I certainly wouldnt buy an apartment on a touristic complex I just wouldnt be happy buying into a situation where someone had a monopoly control over the business.
As to the residential then if your buying to rent commercially and advertise then NO they were NEVER intended for that use and it is unfair on the full time residents and the risks are to high IMHO
However if you want to use it extensively yourself and allow family and friends to contribute to your expenses occassionally then YES best thing we ever did.
Are you still looking to buy or has all this put you off ???
I remember posting about the sole agents on the last thread and agree it will be a licence for them to print money. I am still looking but I really feel that there will be big correction in prices over the next couple of years so no great rush I will pick up my bargain property
jogger321
12-06-2011, 09:28
There are a couple of complexes I would consider but for the most part - no.
But on the touristic side I would want a complex where I can "do my own thing" and don´t have to hand MY apartment over to some company who will pay me whatever they feel like from one month to the next. From the sounds of things there seems to be a fair bit of abuse going on with touristic exploitacion/sole agencies.
That's a very valid point. You could end up with the situation the company owns a lot of apartments on a complex and retains the right to run it year in year out and does the equivalent of the "timeshare maintenance charge trick" and just ratchets up their charges each year. If you try to sell it they would be happy to take it off your hands for diddly squat
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 09:40
I remember posting about the sole agents on the last thread and agree it will be a licence for them to print money. I am still looking but I really feel that there will be big correction in prices over the next couple of years so no great rush I will pick up my bargain property
slightly OT :)
I think the "correction" as mostly already happened.
We bought our 1 bed (Los Diamantes 3) in 2003 for about £75,000 including taxes which at the 2003 exchange rate is around 105,000 E
our neighbours sold in 2007 at the top end of the market for around £124,000 at the then exchange rates of 179,000 E
I would be happy today with anything over £100,000 after taxes which at todays rates is around 115,000 E which I think is a genuine bargain especially for a euro buyer given we have totally refurbished it.
The problem at the moment is the backlog of repossessions and distressed sales which is ditorting the market and will take time to clear...how long is that I dont know !!
I guess I am fortunate at the moment to be able to hang on and see if the market picks up in a year or 2. :)
interesting :0
This is clearly a managment company offering short lets in apartments on a commercial basis on several well know and popular residential sites using internet advertising and it would also appear to include apartments on touristic sites but without the sole agency explotation rights, all based in UK.
How on earth are the authorities going to prosecute them ??
In reality they probably cant so they will have to "contact" the individual owners directly which wouldnt be difficult and which given the recent developments reported here might throw some light on the issue.
Well tenerife- hols certainly are aware of the discussion about the law
Owners of Tenerife Holiday Home using our website for 3 purposes:
1). Where the property is suitable we offer a rental income from short term holiday lets.
2). We offer long term residential lets (over 3 months).
3). Some owners do not want to rent out commercially but simply purchase a web page on our website as a point of reference for friends and family who may be interested in viewing details / using the property.
However, then going on to offer residential properties at say, 265 GBP a week kind of negates item 3.
If an ad specifies a minimum let of 3 months then is there any reason why the price cannot be advertised as a weekly rate? Another one for Peter to ask tomorrow in his meeting.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 09:54
If an ad specifies a minimum let of 3 months then is there any reason why the price cannot be advertised as a weekly rate? Another one for Peter to ask tomorrow in his meeting.
Yes I would think would be the answer, The legal Spanish rental contracts state that the rentals must be agreed and stipulated as MONTHLY rates.
Angusjim
12-06-2011, 09:56
slightly OT :)
I think the "correction" as mostly already happened.
We bought our 1 bed (Los Diamantes 3) in 2003 for about £75,000 including taxes which at the 2003 exchange rate is around 105,000 E
our neighbours sold in 2007 at the top end of the market for around £124,000 at the then exchange rates of 179,000 E
I would be happy today with anything over £100,000 after taxes which at todays rates is around 115,000 E which I think is a genuine bargain especially for a euro buyer given we have totally refurbished it.
The problem at the moment is the backlog of repossessions and distressed sales which is ditorting the market and will take time to clear...how long is that I dont know !!
I guess I am fortunate at the moment to be able to hang on and see if the market picks up in a year or 2. :)
Sorry Peter do not agree I think at lot more repossessions will come on the market don't think it is anywhere near finished yet and prices will drop further. Don't see the market getting better in the next 4/5 years as morgages etc will be very difficult to get maybe Andy could give his thoughts as he is heavily involved in this market.
If an ad specifies a minimum let of 3 months then is there any reason why the price cannot be advertised as a weekly rate? Another one for Peter to ask tomorrow in his meeting.
Hope not.The water is murky enough.Without another loophole.:lol:
Do we know if these 17 inspectors have visited any of the complexes in the Urbanisation Oasis area of Los Cristianos yet?
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 10:01
Well tenerife- hols certainly are aware of the discussion about the law
Yes they certainly seem to be fully aware of the implications based on this statement
""Please note if you advertise your property on our website for commerical purposes you agree that the responsibility for all local taxes, rental license, insurance, urbanization, community charges, utility bills and all other ongoing charges are solely yours.""
If an ad specifies a minimum let of 3 months then is there any reason why the price cannot be advertised as a weekly rate? Another one for Peter to ask tomorrow in his meeting.
Well, they are offering me one week in July in a (very busy) El Mirador apartment
Mon 11 July 2011 Check out:
Mon 18 July 2011 Party size:
1 person £293.65
Booking cost. Breakdown below.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 10:06
Sorry Peter do not agree I think at lot more repossessions will come on the market don't think it is anywhere near finished yet and prices will drop further. Don't see the market getting better in the next 4/5 years as morgages etc will be very difficult to get maybe Andy could give his thoughts as he is heavily involved in this market.
You might be right Angus who knows. My feeling is that most of the distressed sales and repossessions are out there at the moment but need to be cleared through sales and this represents the bottom of the market. How long will that take I repeat I dont know nor do I think does anyone at this time.
The picture is far from clear. Take the last 2 reported sales on our complex. 1. a 3 bed penthouse offered for £ 175,000 clearly a distressed sale IMHO and a real bargain. 2. a 1 bed apartment on offer for 2 years sold last week £135,000.
Added after 2 minutes:
Do we know if these 17 inspectors have visited any of the complexes in the Urbanisation Oasis area of Los Cristianos yet?
Yes they have visited the Administrator of several residential complexes in that area and it has been reported by the committee of El Mirador that they have visited the complex (23/5/11) and spoken to the President to confirm owners contact details to follow up several inquiries with regards to internet advertisments.
and given Doreens last post it wouldnt be difficult for them to obtain sufficient evidence of commercial activity.
Tom & Sharon
12-06-2011, 10:12
You really need to listen to Peter on this as a community has no such power to do that.
But the president can always issue a denuncia as a private individual. and not in his/her capacity as president.
Your current denuncia will be gathering dust at the moment along with all the others that have been issued over the years.
Well we'll just have to wait and see on that one won't we?
So when you say holiday lets will not be tolerated, what exactly are you going to do about them?
It's easy to make life uncomfortable for people if you want to. Nobody really wants to go head to head on it and fall out, because we are supposed to be a community. But if in a community of 50, you are 1 or 2 who rent out, do you want to feel not welcome when you come on your holidays?
Our community isn't all English by the way. We have quit a few Spanish, a couple of Italians and a Russian. It's only the English who even discuss it. The Spanish just say it's illegal, so there's nothing to discuss. And one of them works in the planning office in the Town Hall.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 10:14
Hope not.The water is murky enough.Without another loophole.:lol:
It is becoming slightly clearer now though !!
Yes I would think would be the answer, The legal Spanish rental contracts state that the rentals must be agreed and stipulated as MONTHLY rates.
Thanks for that Peter. So is that ONLY monthly rates or any way you like so long as monthly rates are shown?
Hope not.The water is murky enough.Without another loophole.:lol:
It does seem quite murky - yes! Hopefully we can find some clarity :)
I´d really like to get to the bottom of all of this and know exactly what can and cant be done, what is stipulated in law, what is still "up in the air" etc etc as although a few on here have said its very clear and thats the end of it, it really doesn´t seem to be!
Added after 2 minutes:
Sorry Peter do not agree I think at lot more repossessions will come on the market don't think it is anywhere near finished yet and prices will drop further. Don't see the market getting better in the next 4/5 years as morgages etc will be very difficult to get maybe Andy could give his thoughts as he is heavily involved in this market.
Further price falls across the board according to what I have seen and am seeing. Conversely, mortgage availability is going up on distressed/repossessed units although some banks have a certain reluctance to new mortgages on property they don´t own. One for another thread I think.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 10:26
Thanks for that Peter. So is that ONLY monthly rates or any way you like so long as monthly rates are shown?
It does seem quite murky - yes! Hopefully we can find some clarity :)
I´d really like to get to the bottom of all of this and know exactly what can and cant be done, what is stipulated in law, what is still "up in the air" etc etc as although a few on here have said its very clear and thats the end of it, it really doesn´t seem to be!
I would guess that it is only MONTHLY rates to be advertised for a long term contract. Time allowing I will try to get to the bottom of this at our meeting with our community lawyers.
Not sure if this helps have a read.
http://valencia.angloinfo.com/countries/spain/re_rental.asp
Further price falls across the board according to what I have seen and am seeing.
Can you expand on the reasons this thinking (Mods might want to move thuis to another thread.)
Re the muddyness of the law:
Personally I think it's very clear, it's just the Expats who muddy it up in their own heads and others....someone I was emailing gave me his take on it and I've simplified further below:
1) Tourist Letting on Residential complex No.
2) Tourist letting on tourist complex with no exploitation company No
3) Tourist letting on tourist complex with exploitation company Yes but only through exploitation company.
4) Tourist letting in villas: independant ones yes if registered with cabildo and no if in a community of villas.
5) Four legs good , two legs bad.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 11:40
I would refine it just a bit
1) Commercial Letting to tourists on a Residential complex. NO.
2) Commercial Letting to tourists on a Touristic complex with no Exploitation Company. NO.
3) Commercial Letting to tourists on a Touristic complex with an Exploitation Company. YES but only through the Exploitation Company.
4) Commercial Letting in villas to tourists. Independant ones YES if registered with cabildo and NO if in a community of villas.
the use of "explotation" is unfortunate but perhaps very apt in some cases. :)
You might call this muddying but I prefer to think of it has protecting my rights to invite certain guests.
Added after 11 minutes:
Might even need to refine it just a bit more
1) Commercial Letting to tourists wanting touristic services on a Residential complex. NO.
2) Commercial Letting to tourists wanting touristic services on a Touristic complex with no Exploitation Company. NO.
3) Commercial Letting to tourists wanting touristic services on a Touristic complex with an Exploitation Company. YES but only through the Exploitation Company.
4) Commercial Letting in villas to tourists wanting touristic services. Independant ones YES if registered with cabildo and NO if in a community of villas.
the use of "explotation" is unfortunate but perhaps very apt in some cases. :)
You might call this muddying but I prefer to think of it has protecting my rights to invite certain guests.
Red Devil
12-06-2011, 12:01
Which has made me realise that IIRC (:lol:) I never got an answer to my question on the previous forum, which was what happens if I am not satisfied with the standard of service provided by the management company for my apartment? (If on a touristic site)Who is on my side then?
and I should edit item 4. LEts are allowed on a community of villas so long as they can get the necessary percentage to register as a group.
Which has made me realise that IIRC (:lol:) I never got an answer to my question on the previous forum, which was what happens if I am not satisfied with the standard of service provided by the management company for my apartment? (If on a touristic site)Who is on my side then?
Simple. You complain to the Cabildo and they will come down and inspect the report you make.
Angusjim
12-06-2011, 12:12
Loaded puting aside your vested interest in this matter & if we agree that the law is correct. What do you think is going to happen with all of this do you think they can / will enfource the law given the scale of the so called "illegal letting" or will there be a compromise?
Red Devil
12-06-2011, 12:17
and I should edit item 4. LEts are allowed on a community of villas so long as they can get the necessary percentage to register as a group.
Simple. You complain to the Cabildo and they will come down and inspect the report you make.
So you are saying that if I think the management company arent cleaning my apartment to a good enough standard I report the company to the Cabildo and they shoot down to see me?
Loaded puting aside your vested interest in this matter & if we agree that the law is correct. What do you think is going to happen with all of this do you think they can / will enfource the law given the scale of the so called "illegal letting" or will there be a compromise?
Good question.
I do have a vested interest in this as I'm part of the letting company on a complex. here's my thoughts on what going on:
I think it's a HUGE task for the inspectors and it will be very difficult and time consuming to catch everyone. If they're serious about this task they need to start fining people and getting the word around. I think that would stop most people continuing to let.
I understand the objections from residents who bought on there wanting residents only but I personally have no problem with them allowing "residential" places like El Mirador to come on board and become legal holiday accommodation so long as they have to adhere to the same standards as the rest of us - and by that I don't mean easy stuff like putting a 32" TV, DVD, microwave etc in the apartment - I'm about to apply for an upgrade to our key rating to become 3 star (which is the new minimum standard unless you're an existing place) and we will have to do all sorts to get that including possibly; kids play area, mini golf, telephones in apartments etc. These things need passing at AGM's before they can be done - so it's alright saying "yes come on board the legal side" but things have to equal for places like El Mirador and Apartamentos Reveron for example.
I'm not afraid of the competition so long as we're all on a level playing field.
I think the main targets need to be people on holiday complexes letting out when they aren't registered. For example, on Paloma Beach there are around 15-20 apartments who aren't registered and continue to let, this makes things difficult on so many levels EG:
The guests still come to the onsite reception for help and expect the same service that guests in the legal ones get, ie: they're locked out, they need a doctor, their electrics aren't working, they don't have hot water etc etc.... when you tell them you can't help they are understandably angry.
Also, lets say I ask at this years AGM for there to be a kids play area because I want 3 stars for the complex. An owner who is resident on the complex will perhaps say: "why should I pay for part of this when it's for the rental sides benefit - the rental agents should pay". This would be possible if there weren't people saying they don't rent when they do (and have websites!!!).
Undercutting: illegal renters on touristic sites. Obviously the sole agent has to incur running costs and make a living from their position. A lot of the running costs are helped to be paid by owners who are registered with them. The ones who aren't registered usually have a husband and wife cleaning team who they pay 20 euros per clean - this means they can charge less than the legal owners who are paying to support the "tourist infrastructure" of the complex. They get to sell their illegal lets based on the reputation and efforts of the legal renters.
So to answer your question: I think they HAVE to enforce the law. Maybe there needs to some way of bringing the others in, but they would need to adhere to the same standards as the rest and without screwing over the people who bought on residential places for peace and quiet, maybe if there was some clause in the law saying that if most people wanted to let then the majority should be able to.....
what's that you say? Article 38 of the 7/1995 says 50%+1 are needed to register?????????
So you are saying that if I think the management company arent cleaning my apartment to a good enough standard I report the company to the Cabildo and they shoot down to see me?
You're a paying customer, if they aren't doing things right you are entitled to make a complaint , they will investigate your complaint and visit the company you have complained about (not you).
Good question.
I do have a vested interest in this as I'm part of the letting company on a complex. here's my thoughts on what going on:
I think it's a HUGE task for the inspectors and it will be very difficult and time consuming to catch everyone. If they're serious about this task they need to start fining people and getting the word around. I think that would stop most people continuing to let.
I understand the objections from residents who bought on there wanting residents only but I personally have no problem with them allowing "residential" places like El Mirador to come on board and become legal holiday accommodation so long as they have to adhere to the same standards as the rest of us - and by that I don't mean easy stuff like putting a 32" TV, DVD, microwave etc in the apartment - I'm about to apply for an upgrade to our key rating to become 3 star (which is the new minimum standard unless you're an existing place) and we will have to do all sorts to get that including possibly; kids play area, mini golf, telephones in apartments etc. These things need passing at AGM's before they can be done - so it's alright saying "yes come on board the legal side" but things have to equal for places like El Mirador and Apartamentos Reveron for example.
I'm not afraid of the competition so long as we're all on a level playing field.
I think the main targets need to be people on holiday complexes letting out when they aren't registered. For example, on Paloma Beach there are around 15-20 apartments who aren't registered and continue to let, this makes things difficult on so many levels EG:
The guests still come to the onsite reception for help and expect the same service that guests in the legal ones get, ie: they're locked out, they need a doctor, their electrics aren't working, they don't have hot water etc etc.... when you tell them you can't help they are understandably angry.
Also, lets say I ask at this years AGM for there to be a kids play area because I want 3 stars for the complex. An owner who is resident on the complex will perhaps say: "why should I pay for part of this when it's for the rental sides benefit - the rental agents should pay". This would be possible if there weren't people saying they don't rent when they do (and have websites!!!).
Undercutting: illegal renters on touristic sites. Obviously the sole agent has to incur running costs and make a living from their position. A lot of the running costs are helped to be paid by owners who are registered with them. The ones who aren't registered usually have a husband and wife cleaning team who they pay 20 euros per clean - this means they can charge less than the legal owners who are paying to support the "tourist infrastructure" of the complex. They get to sell their illegal lets based on the reputation and efforts of the legal renters.
So to answer your question: I think they HAVE to enforce the law. Maybe there needs to some way of bringing the others in, but they would need to adhere to the same standards as the rest and without screwing over the people who bought on residential places for peace and quiet, maybe if there was some clause in the law saying that if most people wanted to let then the majority should be able to.....
what's that you say? Article 38 of the 7/1995 says 50%+1 are needed to register?????????
You're a paying customer, if they aren't doing things right you are entitled to make a complaint , they will investigate your complaint and visit the company you have complained about (not you).
I can understand the best part of what your saying but I'd like to pick up on two points?
You state:-
I think the main targets need to be people on holiday complexes letting out when they aren't registered. For example, on Paloma Beach there are around 15-20 apartments who aren't registered and continue to let, this makes things difficult on so many levels EG:
This happens on all complexes.Surely you have the right to report such actions?
I understand the objections from residents who bought on there wanting residents only but I personally have no problem with them allowing "residential" places like El Mirador to come on board and become legal holiday accommodation so long as they have to adhere to the same standards as the rest of us - and by that I don't mean easy stuff like putting a 32" TV, DVD, microwave etc in the apartment - I'm about to apply for an upgrade to our key rating to become 3 star (which is the new minimum standard unless you're an existing place) and we will have to do all sorts to get that including possibly; kids play area, mini golf, telephones in apartments etc. These things need passing at AGM's before they can be done - so it's alright saying "yes come on board the legal side" but things have to equal for places like El Mirador and Apartamentos Reveron for example.
People who purchased on a residential complex (such as Tom and Sharon)would see their community fees increase threefold and the only persons benefiting are holidaymakers.I've seen this happen on my complex and don't agree with it.
I can understand the best part of what your saying but I'd like to pick up on two points?
You state:-
I think the main targets need to be people on holiday complexes letting out when they aren't registered. For example, on Paloma Beach there are around 15-20 apartments who aren't registered and continue to let, this makes things difficult on so many levels EG:
This happens on all complexes.Surely you have the right to report such actions?
I understand the objections from residents who bought on there wanting residents only but I personally have no problem with them allowing "residential" places like El Mirador to come on board and become legal holiday accommodation so long as they have to adhere to the same standards as the rest of us - and by that I don't mean easy stuff like putting a 32" TV, DVD, microwave etc in the apartment - I'm about to apply for an upgrade to our key rating to become 3 star (which is the new minimum standard unless you're an existing place) and we will have to do all sorts to get that including possibly; kids play area, mini golf, telephones in apartments etc. These things need passing at AGM's before they can be done - so it's alright saying "yes come on board the legal side" but things have to equal for places like El Mirador and Apartamentos Reveron for example.
People who purchased on a residential complex (such as Tom and Sharon)would see their community fees increase threefold and the only persons benefiting are holidaymakers.I've seen this happen on my complex and don't agree with it.
Yes I understand the point you're making, I was saying that it doesn'¡t affect me personally but I can see the problem 100% - this is why the 50%+1 part of the law is there I suppose.
Yes we can and do report illegal renters but things don't move very quickly and although we have been successful in getting one individual fined for this practice, it is an almost full time job trying to to get the rest done.
Angusjim
12-06-2011, 13:29
Yes I understand the point you're making, I was saying that it doesn'¡t affect me personally but I can see the problem 100% - this is why the 50%+1 part of the law is there I suppose.
Yes we can and do report illegal renters but things don't move very quickly and although we have been successful in getting one individual fined for this practice, it is an almost full time job trying to to get the rest done.
So I would imagine the job the inspectors have is almost impossible given the number of potential " illegal renters "
How do you enforce that particulary, as I said already, if the owner is a non resident?
Any multa will be set against the property by means of an embargo so it doesn't matter where the owners live as the fine will eventually be paid.
Added after 5 minutes:
Give 'em a bit longer and I think we will see just what they have been doing!!!
Added after 4 minutes:
Fonica check in online 15 days before departure.Dont need to know where your staying they know what time you arive.
It's a big island and authorities still don't know where they are staying,there was always a requirement that airlines keep and produce flight manifests that´s why so many of the old time crooks flew stand by in the hopes of avoiding being on the lists!!!!
[/B]
So I would imagine the job the inspectors have is almost impossible given the number of potential " illegal renters "
That's kinda like saying how can you enforce a no smoking ban when there are so many potential perpetrators.
The answer is you make it law and fine the ones who don't follow the law and then after a while everyone falls into line.
The problem with this law is there haven been enough fines
It's easy to make life uncomfortable for people if you want to. Nobody really wants to go head to head on it and fall out, because we are supposed to be a community. But if in a community of 50, you are 1 or 2 who rent out, do you want to feel not welcome when you come on your holidays?
So you are openly admitting on a public forum to considering intimidation to spoil someone's holiday. How hypocritical from someone who advocates upholding the law.
You really are trawling the depths now.
Are you like this in real life conversations Hughsyb ?
That's a very valid point. You could end up with the situation the company owns a lot of apartments on a complex and retains the right to run it year in year out and does the equivalent of the "timeshare maintenance charge trick" and just ratchets up their charges each year. If you try to sell it they would be happy to take it off your hands for diddly squat
This has all the makings of Static Caravan Parks in the UK - You can only Buy from the company that runs it, Sell through them, Rent through them and pay whatever they insist on in fees. Then they will start telling you when to paint / renovate your apartment, what colour and style etc. Tell you to replace your front door, your windows your Air Con and Heating. You will start getting extra bills for updating the the site offices, bars, shops on site etc.
Sounds a recipe for disaster
So you are openly admitting on a public forum to considering intimidation to spoil someone's holiday. How hypocritical from someone who advocates upholding the law.
You really are trawling the depths now.
I think you are getting a little obsessed with this member. Your contribution has been valuable but move on with the personal stuff...!
The longer this thread continues the clearer it becomes that until the fines start arriving nobody will believe that the law is going to be enforced. Several rental agents have already been fined and it won't be long before the owners who have being advertising on the web and through local agents will get their knock at the door, before you rush to tell me that I am all sorts of nasty piece of work,I don't want anybody fined just want people to take heed of the warnings they are getting on the forum.I keep reading that the Spanish won't do this and the Spanish don't do that etc., but believe me when it comes to issuing fines they are the very best!!! Ignorance of the law doesn't wash here any more than in the rest of the civilized world and your Irish lawyer will get a lesson in just how easy it is to make a law stick.People (Spanish) are already trying to fight the law because many of them have already being fined(not just directed at Brits) and they are hoping to go to the European Courts but it will take them a long time to get a ruling and because the Spanish Courts can prove good reason for the law they will more than likely win( using security as the main issue).The police say that while they used to know who was on the island (passports taken by reception desks etc.) these days they have no idea who is here and where they are staying.
Fonica, I assume you have evidence for all these "many" people who have been fined, and also evidence that things are just about to take off?
Are you aware you could make a lot of money from this evidence? As soon as owners and companies are stopped from renting out residential properties, with the resulting thousands and thousands of cancelled holidays, many with no refunds, collapse in the property market, job losses, Ryanair pulling out etc. etc., all hell will break loose in the local and international press. You have the opportunity to expose it all just before it happens. The likes of the Sun and other British tabloids will pay good money for such a scoop.
Get in there!
This has all the makings of Static Caravan Parks in the UK - You can only Buy from the company that runs it, Sell through them, Rent through them and pay whatever they insist on in fees. Then they will start telling you when to paint / renovate your apartment, what colour and style etc. Tell you to replace your front door, your windows your Air Con and Heating. You will start getting extra bills for updating the the site offices, bars, shops on site etc.
Sounds a recipe for disaster
yes but if you don't insist on updates and upgrades the standards can slip. Not all caravan/apartment owners take as much pride in their property as others.
In fact we have some apartments that the owners have not set foot inside for 10 or more years. Every now and then we tell them they need to do this and that otherwise they will get left behind. But they'd quite happily not spend a bean on the place if I didn't make them!
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 14:20
That's kinda like saying how can you enforce a no smoking ban when there are so many potential perpetrators.
The answer is you make it law and fine the ones who don't follow the law and then after a while everyone falls into line.
The problem with this law is there haven been enough fines
Yes because the local authorities were culpable and negligent in allowing things to progress to this state and now everyone maybe made to suffer.
Regarding fines I think the ones likely to receive notices are: ( indescending order )
1. Agencies advertising illegal lettings on all sites residential and touristic
2. Agencies letting without the 50+1 % exploitation rights.
3. Owners on touristic sites not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo
4. Owners on residential sites using local 3rd party agencies to obtain lettings
5. Owners on residential sites accepting lettings through internet advertisments.
The inspectorate must have to make some prioritees because the problem is huge and the above list appears a logic progression to me and would give them the greatest chances of successful prosecutions IMHO.
We have direct evidence from forum members of current actions on items 1 - 3 and there are indications that the recent visit to El Mirador could be evidence of impending action on items 4 or 5.
You may be right Peter but I doubt the inspectors differentiate between Owners on residential sites accepting lettings through internet advertisements and Owners on touristic sites not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo.
After all, they are both "guilty" of the same thing; renting out to tourists without the authorization of the cabildo.
I think you are getting a little obsessed with this member. Your contribution has been valuable but move on with the personal stuff...!
I apologise, but I do get angry when people start discriminating and trying to impose their will on others.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 14:31
You may be right Peter but I doubt the inspectors differentiate between Owners on residential sites accepting lettings through internet advertisements and Owners on touristic sites not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo.
After all, they are both "guilty" of the same thing; renting out to tourists without the authorization of the cabildo.
I agree with that statement but the evidence we have seems to suggest they have targeted touristic owners first ( the visits to such as Christian Sur etc. as reported by Fixer almost immediately after the press announcments.)
Its just my logic but I think they must feel the law is fairly clear in this respect and touristic owners not registered are clearly in breech of the 1995 Law
Yes because the local authorities were culpable and negligent in allowing things to progress to this state and now everyone maybe made to suffer.
Regarding fines I think the ones likely to receive notices are: ( indescending order )
1. Agencies advertising illegal lettings on all sites residential and touristic
2. Agencies letting without the 50+1 % exploitation rights.
3. Owners on touristic sites not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo
4. Owners on residential sites using local 3rd party agencies to obtain lettings
5. Owners on residential sites accepting lettings through internet advertisments.
The inspectorate must have to make some prioritees because the problem is huge and the above list appears a logic progression to me and would give them the greatest chances of successful prosecutions IMHO.
We have direct evidence from forum members of current actions on items 1 - 3 and there are indications that the recent visit to El Mirador could be evidence of impending action on item 4.
With all due respect,I think item '3' could prove more difficult as discussed earlier and assuming you meant ' Owners on touristic sites not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo who rent to holidaymakers
This would require some concrete evidence and would have to include door knocking.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 14:35
I apologise, but I do get angry when people start discriminating and trying to impose their will on others.
Its a fine line sometimes between "trying to impose your will" and "standing up for your democratic rights".
I never read Sharon`s post as an intent to intimidate holidaymakers directly but rather to stand up for her rights against what see sees as illegal actions by a minority who are refusing to accept the democratic concensus of the community as a whole.
Yes is does entail door knocking, I've personally walked around with inspectors doing just this.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 14:38
With all due respect,I think item '3' could prove more difficult as discussed earlier and assuming you meant ' Owners on touristic sites not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo who rent to holidaymakers
This would require some concrete evidence and would have to include door knocking.
NO at the risk of being pedantic item 3 should read
3. Owners on touristic sites letting to tourists and not registered with the sole agent and the Tourismo
proving this would be no more difficult than on residential sites all they need is to make a booking.
Peter I think you and I are long past being "at risk of sounding pedantic!" lol
Maybe there needs to some way of bringing the others in, but they would need to adhere to the same standards as the rest and without screwing over the people who bought on residential places for peace and quiet, maybe if there was some clause in the law saying that if most people wanted to let then the majority should be able to.....
Gosh! In March, I asked...............
"I do not believe they are out to stop all holiday rentals in currently residential areas in the Canaries. Does anyone disagree?"
And you replied..................
"I think everyone disagrees."
We seem to be making a little progress. ;)
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 14:54
Peter I think you and I are long past being "at risk of sounding pedantic!" lol
your right I should have said "pedantic AGAIN"
fancy a quick drink next weekend ? over for a short business trip.
Gosh! In March, I asked...............
"I do not believe they are out to stop all holiday rentals in currently residential areas in the Canaries. Does anyone disagree?"
And you replied..................
"I think everyone disagrees."
We seem to be making a little progress. ;)
Maybe you should read my entire posts rather than cutting out the bits that you want to read.
@ Peter, sounds good - PM me and we should be able to get together.
by a minority who are refusing to accept the democratic concensus of the community as a whole.
So if the democratic consensus of your community was to stop family and friends staying in your complex, you would say ok, no problem folks?
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 15:06
So if the democratic consensus of your community was to stop family and friends staying in your complex, you would say ok, no problem folks?
well we have something similar going of at the moment
Ball games ..a few owners want their children to be able to have ball games allowed in and around the pools at a set time each day. This was raised at our AGM and the majority view was this isnt acceptable. Now the owners with children involved arent too happy but thats the current state of the community rules NO BALL GAMES ALLOWED and it is legally enforcable.
Stopping family and friends using the apartments well for a start its not currently in the community rules and such control is legally beyond the powers of the community IMHO
so yes I would be miffed but I cant see that ever happening to be truthful. :wink:
Just as well you don't have an apartment in Sharon's complex then! ;)
I'm sure you remember when Herbert said...............
"The advice to community presidents is to mostly confine their concerns to their communities’ common areas and let owners get on with their own lives within their own property – you are not qualified to act as police."
Sundowner
12-06-2011, 15:23
IMHO to stop holiday lets on a residential complex would be easy!! Hotline to inspectors to report illegal holiday lets. the threat to said holiday makers of being turfed out for an illegal let would be enough to stop most people renting. In these days of forums,facebook etc, word would get around quickly and let's face it no one in their right mind would book a holiday on a residantial complex in those circumstances.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 15:24
Just as well you don't have an apartment in Sharon's complex then! ;)
I'm sure you remember when Herbert said...............
"The advice to community presidents is to mostly confine their concerns to their communities common areas and let owners get on with their own lives within their own property – you are not qualified to act as police."
still got the original letter and its as relevant to these discussions as it was then
For the last 10 years we in Ciudadanos Europeos have fought against the monopolistic and economically damaging aspects of the 1995 Tourist Law (finally imposed in March, 2001). We welcome the public support now offered by John Denham (Letters, February 24) and particularly his comments on some community members trying to at least mislead others.
This law, hardly enforced by the department of tourism, has been used by some despotic community presidents (and others seeking to raise the drawbridge against others enjoying these paradise islands), to discourage and even frighten owners from sharing their property. They are largely bluffing and bullying. Apart from the right of any citizen to inform the authorities of what they believe to be any infringements of any law (in this case Clause 38 of law 7/1995), they have no legal authority to impose their views and are seeking to exploit the unfortunate legal ignorance of owners.
Some are even printing denuncias (in Spanish) and cajoling compliant owners to sign – also trying to impose their private interpretation of the law regarding letting to family and friends. (As yet there is no finally determined case law.) We understand that the tourism authorities require these self appointed vigilantes to provide real evidence that would be accepted by a Spanish court before even considering taking action against owners. (We are not aware of any ordinary owner convicted of breaking this law although some letting agents have received fines). On February 1 we met with Jose Juan Herrera Velásquez, minister of tourism for the Canary Islands. He admitted that Clause 38 of law 7/1995 was not successful and may have helped damage the economy of the Canary Islands.
We informed him that we had predicted these results at our meeting with the regional director of tourism in 1996 and had then proposed a compromise solution. He said he was not aware of these proposals and invited us to re-submit a detailed proposal direct to him. Having consulted the experience of our members and others, our proposal will be submitted next week. We can only hope that common sense will prevail. The problem of passing unenforceable community rules by minorities with their own agenda (the ‘silent majority’ being firmly glued to their sunbed or bar stool – or simply apathetic) is widespread throughout Spain.
We certainly understand from our members (and others) in the southwest of Tenerife that it is not uncommon for a minority of residents in a complex to try to impose their will on other owners – particularly those unable or unwilling to seek proper legal guidance. We have written to The Western Sun several times on this subject and it still represents a large percentage of community discord. We will never understand owners who are prepared to spend many thousands of pounds purchasing property in the Canary Islands but remain unwilling to seek guidance on the inescapable community and other laws, do not actively participate in the democratic management of their community and almost never consult a Spanish lawyer.
Membership of Ciudadanos Europeos (existing throughout Spain) can offer guidance on many aspects of practical legal community management and can at least point you in the direction of an experienced Spanish lawyer if you have a particular private problem. The advice to owners within communities is to actively participate in community affairs – or be prepared to suffer and pay handsomely for not doing so.
The advice to community presidents, (sometimes one of the few permanently residing all the year in a particular apartment complex), is to mostly confine their concerns to their communities’ common areas and let owners get on with their own lives within their own property – you are not qualified to act as police.
Hubert Burridge
President, Ciudadanos Europeos, Canary Islands, Las Americas
Added after 5 minutes:
IMHO to stop holiday lets on a residential complex would be easy!! Hotline to inspectors to report illegal holiday lets. the threat to said holiday makers of being turfed out for an illegal let would be enough to stop most people renting. In these days of forums,facebook etc, word would get around quickly and let's face it no one in their right mind would book a holiday on a residantial complex in those circumstances.
Well if its that easy why have they bothered to employ 17 new inspectors and to spend the past 7 months carrying out lengthy investigations ????
Added after 3 minutes:
Just as well you don't have an apartment in Sharon's complex then! ;)
I'm sure you remember when Herbert said...............
"The advice to community presidents is to mostly confine their concerns to their communities’ common areas and let owners get on with their own lives within their own property – you are not qualified to act as police."
but I do own an apartment on a very similar small complex of 50 owners and I do abide by the general concensus on lettings. :)
only a fool would ignore it and I think the owner who is ignoring the situation on Sharon`s complex is acting very foolishly.
IMHO to stop holiday lets on a residential complex would be easy!! Hotline to inspectors to report illegal holiday lets. the threat to said holiday makers of being turfed out for an illegal let would be enough to stop most people renting. In these days of forums,facebook etc, word would get around quickly and let's face it no one in their right mind would book a holiday on a residantial complex in those circumstances.
But once again we could argue that in many cases friends and family are using it.
If the law went as far as your implying and we will just have to wait and see on that score but I can honestly see it would do serious damage to the economy here long term.
IMHO to stop holiday lets on a residential complex would be easy!! Hotline to inspectors to report illegal holiday lets. the threat to said holiday makers of being turfed out for an illegal let would be enough to stop most people renting. In these days of forums,facebook etc, word would get around quickly and let's face it no one in their right mind would book a holiday on a residantial complex in those circumstances.
Inspectors don't need a hotline. It's all there on the internet, full contact details, calendars etc for thousands of properties.
As for throwing out holidaymakers, they can't do that. The holidaymakers haven't broken any law. The idea that they are going to throw thousands of people, including young children and babies, out onto the streets with no accommodation or money to pay for any, is silly.
of course they aren't going to throw them out. The tourists aren't the ones breaking the law.
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 15:50
The authorities wouldnt allow a memorial and some flowers to stay in place for more than a single day at the site of the poor lady murdered in Los Cris nor are they going to splash these on-going investigations all over the press so they certainly arent about to start evicting holiday makers on to the streets.
Why because they want to protect the tourist image of the resorts and so might just might be looking at a way to resolve this issue and come up with a solution that would do the least damage.
So if the democratic consensus of your community was to stop family and friends staying in your complex, you would say ok, no problem folks?
You cannot stop family staying, if they haven't paid for the use of the property. Which then begs the question that as a lot of people do lettings with no paper trail and cash in hand deals , how will the inspectors prove their case, unless they set up a sting.
easy, knock on doors and ask them - it's unlikely that every customer will remember or be willing to toe the "we're family" story. plus it's not actually in the law that friends and family can stay so the onus would not need to be on the inspectors but rather on the owner. How would it work? I don't know. Would any genuine family and friends be the cause of someone receiving a fine? I highly doubt it.
Sundowner
12-06-2011, 16:43
Inspectors don't need a hotline. It's all there on the internet, full contact details, calendars etc for thousands of properties.
As for throwing out holidaymakers, they can't do that. The holidaymakers haven't broken any law. The idea that they are going to throw thousands of people, including young children and babies, outomplexes onto the streets with no accommodation or money to pay for any, is silly.
I never said they would throw thousands of people onto the streets..................I said the threat would be enough to put people off renting in residential complexes...............
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
So who is going to make these threats then - the authorities?
So the authorities are going to publically threaten to do something which is illegal?
IT's ok Sundowner he's paraphrasing for you - it's his thing
Sundowner
12-06-2011, 17:05
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
So who is going to make these threats then - the authorities?
So the authorities are going to publically threaten to do something which is illegal?
Do you think Denial is a river in Africa ??????
Tom & Sharon
12-06-2011, 17:09
Do you think Denial is a river in Africa ??????
:crylaughing::crylaughing::crylaughing:
Added after 5 minutes:
So you are openly admitting on a public forum to considering intimidation to spoil someone's holiday. How hypocritical from someone who advocates upholding the law.
You really are trawling the depths now.
Where did I say that I intended to spoil someone's holiday then? What I said was, that the offending owners would, as a consequence of renting out against the wishes of the majority, feel uncomfortable amidst the rest of the community when they are on their own holidays in their own apartment.
I apologise, but I do get angry when people start discriminating and trying to impose their will on others.
It's not our will - it's the law! :wall::wall::wall: How many more times do we have to say that?
Do you think Denial is a river in Africa ??????
in de·ni·al
Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
After 6 months, I'd settle for even a tiny bit of evidence! :reading:
Yes is does entail door knocking, I've personally walked around with inspectors doing just this.
Now the agenda is finally becoming clearer,did you volunteer for inspectors enforcer or where you head hunted via your link at the bottom of your posts
Now the agenda is finally becoming clearer,did you volunteer for inspectors enforcer or where you head hunted via your link at the bottom of your posts
Well obviously I called them and asked them to come down and they did.
I've never hidden that, why would I constantly complain about the illegal ones and never do anything about it?
Peterrayner
12-06-2011, 20:10
Now the agenda is finally becoming clearer,did you volunteer for inspectors enforcer or where you head hunted via your link at the bottom of your posts
owners on touristic sites who let commercially without the neccessary registrations cant really complain if they ignore warnings and the site agent then calls in the authorities... can they ?????
If the agent is forced out of business or wasnt there in the first place then everyone on the complex would be put at risk.
Exactly Peter. And I doubt most agents would write to each owner explaining the law, then after been ignored get the cabildo to write to them, then after still being ignored write to them again....
Any multa will be set against the property by means of an embargo so it doesn't matter where the owners live as the fine will eventually be paid.
Added after 5 minutes:
Give 'em a bit longer and I think we will see just what they have been doing!!!
Forgive me for be so thick here, I'm just not following. The fine being set against the property I understand, ( even though I still think a non resident will just ignore it) but what do you mean by "means of an embargo"? My understanding of the term embargo is a kind of "ban"?
Added after 9 minutes:
[QUOTE=Sundowner;13506]IMHO to stop holiday lets on a residential complex would be easy!! Hotline to inspectors to report illegal holiday lets. the threat to said holiday makers of being turfed out for an illegal let would be enough to stop most people renting. In these days of forums,facebook etc, word would get around quickly and let's face it no one in their right mind would book a holiday on a residantial complex in those circumstances.
You would be opening up another can of worms there! e.g. if a family were kicked out, it would be incumbant upon the authorities to provide adequate accomodation. Also,the family could insist on being repatriated which would incur even more cost.
[QUOTE=fonica;13424]Any multa will be set against the property by means of an embargo so it doesn't matter where the owners live as the fine will eventually be paid.
Added after 5 minutes:
Give 'em a bit longer and I think we will see just what they have been doing!!!
Forgive me for be so thick here, I'm just not following. The fine being set against the property I understand, ( even though I still think a non resident will just ignore it) but what do you mean by "means of an embargo"? My understanding of the term embargo is a kind of "ban"?
Let me explain embargo by means of the case of someone I was chatting to yesterday - having lived on the island, he sold up & left, but Basure (rubbish collection) bills wrongly built up against his name and an embargo of 2,500 was lodged against a bank account he still maintained - meaning the tax authorities had claim to the first 2,500 in the account, and if not enough, until they had been paid the full amount, the account was frozen. It's a pwerful tool that gets used here often (and too quickly sometimes) ... likewise and embargo can be lodged against a property - at the Notary all charges must be cleared off the title, or the property cannot be sold. If the sum embargoed is large enough, an applicatiion can be made to force the sale of the property to clear it (you don't often hear of this being used).
[QUOTE=fonica;13424]Any multa will be set against the property by means of an embargo so it doesn't matter where the owners live as the fine will eventually be paid.
Added after 5 minutes:
Give 'em a bit longer and I think we will see just what they have been doing!!!
Forgive me for be so thick here, I'm just not following. The fine being set against the property I understand, ( even though I still think a non resident will just ignore it) but what do you mean by "means of an embargo"? My understanding of the term embargo is a kind of "ban"?
Let me explain embargo by means of the case of someone I was chatting to yesterday - having lived on the island, he sold up & left, but Basura (rubbish collection) bills wrongly built up against his name and an embargo of 2,500 was lodged against a bank account he still maintained - meaning the tax authorities had claim to the first 2,500 in the account, and if not enough, until they had been paid the full amount, the account was frozen. It's a powerful tool that gets used here often (and too quickly sometimes) ... likewise and embargo can be lodged against a property - at the Notary all charges must be cleared off the title, or the property cannot be sold. If the sum embargoed is large enough, an applicatiion can be made to force the sale of the property to clear it (you don't often hear of this being used).
I never said they would throw thousands of people onto the streets..................I said the threat would be enough to put people off renting in residential complexes...............
Sorry, I only saw your reply after I wrote the first response.
Added after 12 minutes:
[QUOTE=dokgolf;13808]
Let me explain embargo by means of the case of someone I was chatting to yesterday - having lived on the island, he sold up & left, but Basure (rubbish collection) bills wrongly built up against his name and an embargo of 2,500 was lodged against a bank account he still maintained - meaning the tax authorities had claim to the first 2,500 in the account, and if not enough, until they had been paid the full amount, the account was frozen. It's a pwerful tool that gets used here often (and too quickly sometimes) ... likewise and embargo can be lodged against a property - at the Notary all charges must be cleared off the title, or the property cannot be sold. If the sum embargoed is large enough, an applicatiion can be made to force the sale of the property to clear it (you don't often hear of this being used).
Ah, the light dawns!! Thats a very interesting ploy. It still is based on proving that an apartment on a residential complex is being leased on a commercial basis which essentially is the crux of the problem. Just as an aside, I wonder that the people who have a vested business interest in this law being enforced i.e letting agents and owners on touristic complexes, if they ever asked themselves why thousands of holidaymakers are abandoning the traditional vacation complexes and going to the privately owned apartments? Imho, I think it just boils down to the quality of the accomodation. I know that until my brother bought his place, we couldn't find adequate accomodation for a young family of 5 ( i.e. a minimum of 2 bed apartment) without having to split the family up into 2 seperate places ( which incidently could only be described at best as average)
to recap then, more than one owner has been "fined" by the authorities ?
was there a court case or did the authority just announce an amount to levy and apply for an embargo ?
how much was the fine ? and how come it didn´t make the news ?
I´d be very interested to know how the system works since to my knowledge the court system is very slow here.
I think it mainly boils down to how much less they can charge than registered accommodation.
Tom & Sharon
12-06-2011, 22:32
But which one of us has actually made a mistake here? It isn't us I can assure you. We love our home and the complex it is on, and wish to keep it as lovely as it is now. We bought off plan, as did most of the neighbours and the majority are determined that it will run as a "residential community of owners". As has already been mentioned on here, there are developments such as Playa Graciosa where short term holiday lets will not be tolerated. I assure you, ours will join that list.
Just because the law hasn't always been widely enforced, doesn't mean that will always be the case. This I firmly believe is what is happening now, although you seem to believe that you will continue to be able to flout the law. If I am right, and you are wrong, who has made the mistake? We didn't buy ours with the intention of ever renting it out. You on the other hand, for whatever reason, appear to have bought yours with a view to making a commercial profit. If the law suddenly begins to be enforced, where will that leave you? Because we'll be sitting pretty!
in de·ni·al
Denial is a defense mechanism postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.
So, that's why you didn't answer my question then. Do we have a "burying head in sand" smilie?:hole:
willowlily
12-06-2011, 22:41
in tenerife 6 months is the min let for a residential contract, but the tenant may legally terminate after 3 months, this is where the confusion about 3 months is coming from
Peterrayner
13-06-2011, 08:59
in tenerife 6 months is the min let for a residential contract, but the tenant may legally terminate after 3 months, this is where the confusion about 3 months is coming from
Thats seems to make sense willowlily :) do you have a reference to a residential rental contract so we could confirm this once and for all. :thanks:
Added after 3 Hours 41 minutes:
I have been refered to this Spanish site (written in English) for details of rental contracts.
http://iabogado.com/guia-legal/la-vivienda/renting-housing/lang/en
Added after 19 minutes:
@CIM if you want a definative legal opinion there is this but they wabt a 50E appointment fee up front.
http://www.tenerifesolicitors.com/landlord-and-tenant-issues.php
willowlily
13-06-2011, 17:45
Thats seems to make sense willowlily :) do you have a reference to a residential rental contract so we could confirm this once and for all. :thanks:
Added after 3 Hours 41 minutes:
I have been refered to this Spanish site (written in English) for details of rental contracts.
http://iabogado.com/guia-legal/la-vivienda/renting-housing/lang/en
Added after 19 minutes:
@CIM if you want a definative legal opinion there is this but they wabt a 50E appointment fee up front.
http://www.tenerifesolicitors.com/landlord-and-tenant-issues.php
this law is exactly the same as in the uk except in the uk it is called ( assured shorthold tenancy) any agent in tenerife who rents out residential property will have a legal copy of this spanish agreement which covers tenerife. the law was changed several years ago when the 3 month clause was added, for many years some unscrupulous agents were using the old agreement.
delderek
13-06-2011, 18:57
this law is exactly the same as in the uk except in the uk it is called ( assured shorthold tenancy) any agent in tenerife who rents out residential property will have a legal copy of this spanish agreement which covers tenerife. the law was changed several years ago when the 3 month clause was added, for many years some unscrupulous agents were using the old agreement.
Unscrupulous agents in Tenerife,,,Never!!:whistle:
remember the link Peter provided covers Spain and there are some differences in canarian versions
Peterrayner
13-06-2011, 23:16
@ CIM :) found this
http://www.inmoweb.com/IMAGES/avtem.doc
It`s an example of a rental contract for a fixed lease of 4 months in the summer period with a right of termination of 30 days notice by either party at any time. So the months and the period can be as agreed and amended accordingly,
also the Clause 3 "summer" period could also be amended accordingly.
Below is a translation of the relevant clause for the duration of the contract.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clauses
First: Duration
The lease is for the months of June to September 200_, starting on __ _____ 200_ and ending on the day of ________ , _________ , 20___.
The term of this contract is four months from the day of the date, to be renewed automatically for successive annual periods. However, either party may terminate the contract early, notice to be given 30 days in advance. In the event that the lessee shall make use of this right he shall not be liable to pay the rents that are left to expire to the end of the contract.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From what I have read you can use this for a "single" fixed lease which is a CONTRATO DE ARRENDAMIENTO DE TEMPORADA DE VIVIENDA for anything up to a year but you MUST give the tenant 30 days written notice of the termination of the lease.
I dont see why you couldnt issue the notice of termination with the contract (dated accordingly) and get the tenant to sign for receipt of it.
Also it is very important and should be noted if you dont give the notice of termination or if you give repeat contracts with the same tenant that extends the lease beyond a period of a year then it automatically becomes a long term contract CONTRATO DE ARRENDAMIENTO DE VIVIENDA which means when the contract expires the tenant can then automatically claim an annual extension of the lease for a total of up to five years.
The contract requires that 2 months rent are paid in advance as a bond and so with the 30 days termination notice required this effectively means that the minimum agreed period would be 3 months.
ie the two months bond paid up front (cant see any requirement to repay this if they leave before the end of the two months) plus the 1 months notice.
which seems to answer your original question :) that the legal minimum period for a long term contract is 3 months.
It make sense when you think that the Spanish and South Americans like to arrange one-off rentals of property for the summer holidays or for seasonal work and therefore would use such a rental contract for a fixed period.
remember the link Peter provided covers Spain and there are some differences in canarian versions
would you have a copy of a Canarian version? :)
Perhaps we should start a Tenerife LEGAL lettings thread
to recap then, more than one owner has been "fined" by the authorities ?
was there a court case or did the authority just announce an amount to levy and apply for an embargo ?
how much was the fine ? and how come it didn´t make the news ?
I´d be very interested to know how the system works since to my knowledge the court system is very slow here.
Hi Tony
You can draw your own conclusions to the deafening silence to your questions.
I just watch these posts with interest to see how things develop
howard thornton
14-06-2011, 18:10
I just watch these posts with interest to see how things develop
naff all ever doe's.
to recap then, more than one owner has been "fined" by the authorities ?
was there a court case or did the authority just announce an amount to levy and apply for an embargo ?
how much was the fine ? and how come it didn´t make the news ?
I´d be very interested to know how the system works since to my knowledge the court system is very slow here.
tonym ... so you have or haven't read all the thread, both old and new ??? Over the last 5 or so months, we have discussed this ... and had first hand reports from agents who have been inspected - one of whom has been fined, sorry, issued with a notice of a fine which I presume they are appealing. I have spoken to a lawyer with a client asked to pay a fine of 72.000 on whose behalf he is likewise appealing. I have spoken to yet another agent who personally owns villas that he has been told must not appear on a website and must not be rented to tourists - a visit on his behalf to Tourismo in Santa Cruz last week confirmed this message and the reference was made of the piles and piles of files regarding agents and owners sitting on the desks in Tourismo.
We equally have reports from owners who have said they have been informed their complexes and/or Administrators have been inspected.
You are right, the Court system is exceedingly slow in Tenerife - I do not expect any cases to come up anytime soon. The case I quoted of before the "17 new inspectors" announcement (Atlantis bungalows) had about 9 months between inspection and publication of the fine in the Boletin, and I doubt there was an appeal there for it to have gone through in such a short time. Embargoes will only come into the question after appeals are exhausted and fines, if confirmed, remain unpaid.
Is that loud enough for you, Hughsby :)
naff all ever doe's.
But by the looks of some people's posts, Its all happening everyday, Groundhog day though. & round we go again, bit like goldfish really.
Red Devil
14-06-2011, 19:15
tonym ... so you have or haven't read all the thread, both old and new ??? Over the last 5 or so months, we have discussed this ... and had first hand reports from agents who have been inspected - one of whom has been fined, sorry, issued with a notice of a fine which I presume they are appealing. I have spoken to a lawyer with a client asked to pay a fine of 72.000 on whose behalf he is likewise appealing. I have spoken to yet another agent who personally owns villas that he has been told must not appear on a website and must not be rented to tourists - a visit on his behalf to Tourismo in Santa Cruz last week confirmed this message and the reference was made of the piles and piles of files regarding agents and owners sitting on the desks in Tourismo.
We equally have reports from owners who have said they have been informed their complexes and/or Administrators have been inspected.
You are right, the Court system is exceedingly slow in Tenerife - I do not expect any cases to come up anytime soon. The case I quoted of before the "17 new inspectors" announcement (Atlantis bungalows) had about 9 months between inspection and publication of the fine in the Boletin, and I doubt there was an appeal there for it to have gone through in such a short time. Embargoes will only come into the question after appeals are exhausted and fines, if confirmed, remain unpaid.
Is that loud enough for you, Hughsby :)
Sorry Doreen, just wanted to clear one thing up - is there any record of an individual owner on a residential complex ever being fined for letting his own apartment "illegally"? Or in the process of being prosecuted?
Every case I have heard about have been agents being checked, apart from the bungalow owner at Club Atlantis, who I believe owned a few anyway.
It just seems very odd that none of these complex administrators etc have, to my knowledge, not mentioned one word to residents etc that they may be prosecuted, if that is why they were paid a visit?
Tom & Sharon
14-06-2011, 19:20
Sorry Doreen, just wanted to clear one thing up - is there any record of an individual owner on a residential complex ever being fined for letting his own apartment "illegally"? Or in the process of being prosecuted?
Every case I have heard about have been agents being checked, apart from the bungalow owner at Club Atlantis, who I believe owned a few anyway.
The denuncia went in on our complex last week. The inspectors have said they will be visiting, but may take them 2 months. Will keep you posted though.....
Red Devil
14-06-2011, 19:25
The denuncia went in on our complex last week. The inspectors have said they will be visiting, but may take them 2 months. Will keep you posted though.....
Yes but with respect yours is a personal denuncia isnt it that you are pursuing yourselves? That option has always been available I believe
Tom & Sharon
14-06-2011, 19:31
Yes but with respect yours is a personal denuncia isnt it that you are pursuing yourselves? That option has always been available I believe
It's not us, we just know of it. I don't really understand your question then. I know it's always been an option, but so has everything surely? It's been a law since 1995. The only difference now is that they've been given the manpower to enforce it.
Sorry Doreen, just wanted to clear one thing up - is there any record of an individual owner on a residential complex ever being fined for letting his own apartment "illegally"? Or in the process of being prosecuted?
Every case I have heard about have been agents being checked, apart from the bungalow owner at Club Atlantis, who I believe owned a few anyway.
I have no report of one individual owner in a residential complex being fined ... in my opinion, the word "yet" needs to be added ...
duplicate post - rotten internet connection :(
I have no report of one individual owner in a residential complex being fined ... in my opinion, the word "yet" needs to be added ...
Similarly.....I have no report of one individual owner in a touristic complex being fined yet.Or does someone know different?
Red Devil
14-06-2011, 19:59
It's not us, we just know of it. I don't really understand your question then. I know it's always been an option, but so has everything surely? It's been a law since 1995. The only difference now is that they've been given the manpower to enforce it.
Surely though in 16 years, even if they had only 1 inspector for the whole of Tenerife, they could easily have started fining at least a few people if they were sure of the stand they were taking, and they haven't done -which brings me round again to the beginning, the law as it stands is unworkable. I am of course referring to an inspector from the tourist board, not the serving of a personal denuncia.
Bear in mind it was pressure from the large hotel groups I believe that started making the fuss in the first place, not the tourist board itself.
Surely though in 16 years, even if they had only 1 inspector for the whole of Tenerife, they could easily have started fining at least a few people if they were sure of the stand they were taking, and they haven't done -which brings me round again to the beginning, the law as it stands is unworkable. I am of course referring to an inspector from the tourist board, not the serving of a personal denuncia.
Bear in mind it was pressure from the large hotel groups I believe that started making the fuss in the first place, not the tourist board itself.
But we don't know that the law is unworkable ... just not enforced before
Personally, I can't see the inspectors ever stopping owners from letting out their apartments on residential complexes or really wanting to.
If they did I am sure they could have done something by now.
Why would they want to? Surly they do not want to stop visitors coming to Tenerife.
Also, is anyone else apart from this forum talking about these inspectors? I have spoken to several friends in Tenerife who appear to know nothing of this.
Personally, I can't see the inspectors ever stopping owners from letting out their apartments on residential complexes or really wanting to.
If they did I am sure they could have done something by now.
Why would they want to? Surly they do not want to stop visitors coming to Tenerife.
Also, is anyone else apart from this forum talking about these inspectors? I have spoken to several friends in Tenerife who appear to know nothing of this.
Why not?As discussed before its against the law.Plus,I really cant see the tourist board employing and paying the wages of 17 new inspectors if they thought it wasn't workable.
Remember,the property market is at a virtual standstill so this could prove a very lucrative source of revenue.
Peterrayner
14-06-2011, 21:21
Sorry Doreen, just wanted to clear one thing up - is there any record of an individual owner on a residential complex ever being fined for letting his own apartment "illegally"? Or in the process of being prosecuted?
Every case I have heard about have been agents being checked, apart from the bungalow owner at Club Atlantis, who I believe owned a few anyway.
It just seems very odd that none of these complex administrators etc have, to my knowledge, not mentioned one word to residents etc that they may be prosecuted, if that is why they were paid a visit?
Up to a few years ago, when I was a member of Ciudadnos Europeos, they had confirmed (2005) that not one private owner on a residential complex had ever been fined and I dont think that has changed up to the start of this year.
An owner on Club Atlantis has I believe been fined 18,000E for "grave transgretions" of the 1995 laws but I am under the impression that the complex is touristic, at least the aparthotel is and the bungalows desigantion is unclear. The owner in question was I understand denounced by the sole agent for letting multiple properties without the required touristic registration. The fine was not appealed and the court have confirmed the fine earlier this year IIRC.
I also believe that the 1995 Law was put in place specifically to regulate touristic sites which at that time where the norm for developers to build and the authorities decided that it needed some control over the commercial explotation of tourists.
In the intervening period between 1995 and around 1998 there was an embargo placed on touristic licences for communal apartment or villa complexes, which is still in place and developments since about 1998 have all been residential in designation.
Can the 1995 laws be applied successfully to residential sites ???? I am not sure, I personally doubt it, given there is no legal case law further to any prosecutions against residential owners, but I guess we will have to wait and see the outcome of these investigations.
I do believe that they intend to try enforce the no commercial advertising aspect both on unregistered property on touristic sites and also on residential sites.
I think we can deduce this from the "evidence" provided by reports by members here of visits to agencies, touristic sites and administrators.
If they are successful in detering residential owners from commercial advertising, both with local unlicenced agencies and on the internet sites, then this should significantly reduce the potential availability and therefore to "family and friends" contacts only, which some legal opinion states is legally acceptable both under private owners constitutional rights, and according to the Ciudadnos Europeos, under a decree ref 93/1998 amending the original 1995 law or at least thats what they were saying in 2005.
The following was published by them in 2005 in repsonse to a President attempting to take actions against several owners on a residential complex and which was unsuccessful.
We, despite our 10-year consultation with the Turismo and a whole bevy of lawyers, take a cautious view of some aspects of Law 7/1995 and its subsequent amendments, because we are not aware of any legal action taken against any owner renting to tourists within the provisions of Decree 93/1998. There is very little other case law on renting to tourists.
Mr. *******, with his declared uncertainty and vague knowledge of the law, should consider an equally cautious approach.
Mr ****** does not seem to understand that he, as president of a community of owners, does not have the powers to take legal or physical action against tourists renting apartments – apart from reporting what he believes to be breaches of the law to the appropriate authorities.
We do not understand his expression “residential status of any complex” and would be grateful if he would define its legally enforceable definition in connection with letting to tourists under Decree 93/1998.
We are always eager to learn new facts – but not sales jargon.
Red Devil
14-06-2011, 21:55
Up to a few years ago, when I was a member of Ciudadnos Europeos, they had confirmed (2005) that not one private owner on a residential complex had ever been fined and I dont think that has changed up to the start of this year.
An owner on Club Atlantis has I believe been fined 18,000E for "grave transgretions" of the 1995 laws but I am under the impression that the complex is touristic, at least the aparthotel is and the bungalows desigantion is unclear. The owner in question was I understand denounced by the sole agent for letting multiple properties without the required touristic registration. The fine was not appealed and the court have confirmed the fine earlier this year IIRC.
I also believe that the 1995 Law was put in place specifically to regulate touristic sites which at that time where the norm for developers to build and the authorities decided that it needed some control over the commercial explotation of tourists.
In the intervening period between 1995 and around 1998 there was an embargo placed on touristic licences for communal apartment or villa complexes, which is still in place and developments since about 1998 have all been residential in designation.
Can the 1995 laws be applied successfully to residential sites ???? I am not sure, I personally doubt it, given there is no legal case law further to any prosecutions against residential owners, but I guess we will have to wait and see the outcome of these investigations.
I do believe that they intend to try enforce the no commercial advertising aspect both on unregistered property on touristic sites and also on residential sites.
I think we can deduce this from the "evidence" provided by reports by members here of visits to agencies, touristic sites and administrators.
If they are successful in detering residential owners from commercial advertising, both with local unlicenced agencies and on the internet sites, then this should significantly reduce the potential availability and therefore to "family and friends" contacts only, which some legal opinion states is legally acceptable both under private owners constitutional rights, and according to the Ciudadnos Europeos, under a decree ref 93/1998 amending the original 1995 law or at least thats what they were saying in 2005.
The following was published by them in 2005 in repsonse to a President attempting to take actions against several owners on a residential complex and which was unsuccessful.
I remember the man who was President of that Association, was he on Santiago 2 or somewhere? Do remember he was very robust in his defence of lettings and wrote excellent articles in the local papers. Hubert something?
junglejim
14-06-2011, 22:06
Up to a few years ago, when I was a member of Ciudadnos Europeos, they had confirmed (2005) that not one private owner on a residential complex had ever been fined and I dont think that has changed up to the start of this year.
An owner on Club Atlantis has I believe been fined 18,000E for "grave transgretions" of the 1995 laws but I am under the impression that the complex is touristic, at least the aparthotel is and the bungalows desigantion is unclear. The owner in question was I understand denounced by the sole agent for letting multiple properties without the required touristic registration. The fine was not appealed and the court have confirmed the fine earlier this year IIRC.
I also believe that the 1995 Law was put in place specifically to regulate touristic sites which at that time where the norm for developers to build and the authorities decided that it needed some control over the commercial explotation of tourists.
In the intervening period between 1995 and around 1998 there was an embargo placed on touristic licences for communal apartment or villa complexes, which is still in place and developments since about 1998 have all been residential in designation.
Can the 1995 laws be applied successfully to residential sites ???? I am not sure, I personally doubt it, given there is no legal case law further to any prosecutions against residential owners, but I guess we will have to wait and see the outcome of these investigations.
I do believe that they intend to try enforce the no commercial advertising aspect both on unregistered property on touristic sites and also on residential sites.
I think we can deduce this from the "evidence" provided by reports by members here of visits to agencies, touristic sites and administrators.
If they are successful in detering residential owners from commercial advertising, both with local unlicenced agencies and on the internet sites, then this should significantly reduce the potential availability and therefore to "family and friends" contacts only, which some legal opinion states is legally acceptable both under private owners constitutional rights, and according to the Ciudadnos Europeos, under a decree ref 93/1998 amending the original 1995 law or at least thats what they were saying in 2005.
The following was published by them in 2005 in repsonse to a President attempting to take actions against several owners on a residential complex and which was unsuccessful.
When I questioned our President on this ( as he services a couple of bungalows on a holiday let basis there in Atlantis Bungalows ) he said that the owner of the bungalow who was fined has appealed twice , each time reducing the fine .
Our President was reluctant to discuss it and claims his advice from our ex-president ,who was a canarian lawyer, was as long as you didn´t advertise commercially or on websites then you would be ok .
Peterrayner
14-06-2011, 22:30
When I questioned our President on this ( as he services a couple of bungalows on a holiday let basis there in Atlantis Bungalows ) he said that the owner of the bungalow who was fined has appealed twice , each time reducing the fine .
Our President was reluctant to discuss it and claims his advice from our ex-president ,who was a canarian lawyer, was as long as you didn´t advertise commercially or on websites then you would be ok .
The judgement posted on the case recently said it wasnt contested but that may well have been the final case and previous appeals may well have been made.
Yes thats the advice I have been given via a very trusted and experienced source who said it was given direct from the Tourismo lawyers.
I remember the man who was President of that Association, was he on Santiago 2 or somewhere? Do remember he was very robust in his defence of lettings and wrote excellent articles in the local papers. Hubert something?
Hubert Burridge. :) now retired IIRC
Added after 7 minutes:
The denuncia went in on our complex last week. The inspectors have said they will be visiting, but may take them 2 months. Will keep you posted though.....
Yes August would be a good time to visit if they are looking for tourists :wink:
Gosh, top priority then! Is that British months or Spanish months?
Sorry, I forgot. The 17 extra inspectors are very busy just now "gathering information".
And they'll be easily spotted. No need to knock on any doors. They'll be the ones with the screaming kids playing with the crocodiles in the pool!
Peterrayner
15-06-2011, 12:33
Gosh, top priority then! Is that British months or Spanish months?
Sorry, I forgot. The 17 extra inspectors are very busy just now "gathering information".
And they'll be easily spotted. No need to knock on any doors. They'll be the ones with the screaming kids playing with the crocodiles in the pool!
To be fair yes.... the Spanish/Canarian systems can be very slow and beuroctratic but the do usually get there in the end.
But with 70+ new rental properties coming onto the market each month, they'll never get to the end!
Santiago
15-06-2011, 13:52
I have read through all 43 pages of the thread and I would just like to correct one or two assumptions which have been made about the reasons why tourists choose privately owned accommodation. I have been travelling to Tenerife with my husband most years since 1974 and hope to continue to do so for many years yet. Being able to choose private apartments has little to do with the cost and much more to do with the amenities in the apartments and the situation on the complex, including the view. We have stayed in both residential, (I have just discovered from the thread), and tourist complexes and have appreciated being able to choose where we are going to stay. If we book through a travel company we get little choice of apartment and may end up with something we don't like or want. It is possible to request a sea view at an extra cost but this can also be a side view mostly obscured by a palm tree with no sun during the day. I also like to have a washing machine, microwave and fridge/freezer in the apartment as I am on holiday and want all the amenities I have at home!
Not everyone who stays as a tourist has umpteen children who scream in the pool all day, or teenagers who fall back into the apartment in the middle of the night and cause chaos for the neighbours. Some, and probably many, of us like to come out and relax in the peace, quiet and sunshine after 50 weeks working hard. We love your island, spend our money in your shops and restaurants and enjoy your beaches and mountains.
I am hoping that the business of 50% + 1 will be rescinded and the government will see some sense in allowing the recent situation to continue but with more control through the ownership of the apartments, villas, etc. Should all the private accommodation be prevented in both the tourist complexes as well as the residential, then I think the Canary Islands are going to suffer enormously and I, for one, will be looking elsewhere. Don't forget that the Cape Verde Islands are now becoming popular and they are only a couple of hours further on by plane. Construction down there is proceeeding at the same rate as the south of Tenerife was in the 60's and 70's and will soon be on a par with places like Las Americas or Los Cristianos. I would regret not being able to take my annual two weeks in my favourite place but if prevented from having the holiday I desire, then I would have to look for somewhere which can provide it.
I really feel that there are a lot of squabbles about residential versus tourist accommodation and who should have what, where and why, when you should try to think laterally and consider Tenerife as tourist destination which you are fortunate enough to live in and enjoy. Your main objective should be to persuade the government to allow all types of accommodation as they do at the moment but in a more organised fashion.
By the way, if you think I am talking out of my hat, I live in one of the most expensive tourist villages in Cornwall and derive my income from tourism. Should anything happen here regarding private letting,as may happen in Tenerife, our village would die very quickly and unemployment would soar.
Santiago, you sound far too sensible for this topic!
Peterrayner
15-06-2011, 16:42
By the way, if you think I am talking out of my hat, I live in one of the most expensive tourist villages in Cornwall and derive my income from tourism. Should anything happen here regarding private letting,as may happen in Tenerife, our village would die very quickly and unemployment would soar.
Can we be friends you sound like the perfect tourist....ooops sorry meant tenant.
Santiago
15-06-2011, 16:53
Thank you for your comments - I also clean bathrooms, ovens, wash floors and windows, etc., in fact the perfect house pet!!
I also have read this thread with interest as an owner on a former timeshare complex.
As someone previously defined "commercial" as being for profit, does the fact I run at a considerable loss mean my letting (to friends & family of course) mean that it isn't commercial?
I bought the apartment about 4 years ago as I wanted it, not to make money, but as somewhere to spend our holidays and the winters when we retire. In that 4 years we have renewed the interior entirely, and any (alleged) rental income has been ploughed into improvements, employing Spanish tradesmen for much of the work. My "friends" who visit it spend their money in local bars & restuarants etc, and most say they choose apartments as a preference, not on cost. With cheap deals from travel agents an apartment is often dearer than a hotel. Like many owners I don't allow single-sex groups of friends to stay. I believe our complex is ex touristic, but not resedential, so who knows what status it is.
It would seem sensible to me to designate areas rather complexes as touristic or resedential, and allow the community to opt out of tourist renting if desired by a majority. If individual apartments were licensed this would give the control to the authorities, and maybe each complex could have their administrators handle issues such as facilities, fire regs etc etc. If this meant an increase in fees perhaps only "tourist registered" apartments would have to pay the extra, avoiding the "unity of exploitation" problems mentioned in previous posts. The gives owners the incentive to maintain standards, as people just wouldn't come back to poor apartments. Currently on a touristic complex what is the incentive to improve your apartment when it treated as just another room to the exploitation company, and a "good" apartment would probably get no more income than one which has little work done it.
I know I would pay for a license to be fully legal.
I suspect I am like many owners, renting is not for profit, merely just to offset the mortgage and other running costs of the apartment. Is that "commercial" ?
Peterrayner
15-06-2011, 18:37
I know I would pay for a license to be fully legal.
I suspect I am like many owners, renting is not for profit, merely just to offset the mortgage and other running costs of the apartment. Is that "commercial" ?
In my book those are legitimate costs and your friends are entitled to make a contribution towards those which is therefore not commercial acitivity on the proviso that you dont currently advertise for lettings with a local agency or on the internet which at present is being interpreted as contaveening Article 42 (c) ofthe Law 7/1995
I agree the simplest solution might to amend the current laws to allow residential apartments to register for a touristic licence and the advertise commercially ( and pay the taxes) subject to the approval of the community which ought not to be unreasonably withheld provided the owner was not in debt for community fees but could be revoked if there were significant problems and disturbances to neighbours.
delderek
15-06-2011, 18:55
All these opinions, wanting to change the law, helping with the mortgage, etc etc, to me the two words RESIDENCIAL or TOURISTIC, describe the diffence perfectly.
Come on people, no one here is stupid enough to think that commercial only means making a profit.... some businesses don't make profits, it doesn't mean they aren't running a commercial activity.
Also think about the comment "if my income doesn't beat my outgoings (mortgage) then that's not commercial either".
If that was the case people with mortgages could let and people wihout couldn't! So you'd be better off not having enough money to actually pay for what you're buying..... crazy.
Added after 2 minutes:
here's the dictionary def: Commerce; The buying and selling of goods
Not: the buying and sellign of goods so long as you come out with a profit...
OK, so maybe the commercial part of my post above was slightly tongue in cheek, but can anyone answer the other point I made - if the current laws are to improve standards
"Currently on a touristic complex what is the incentive to improve your apartment when it is treated as just another room to the exploitation company, and a "good" apartment would probably get no more income than one which has little work done it. "
I have no experience of exploitation companies, but it seems the concept (and this is not a criticism of any particular company or person) is counter productive, and only encourages maximum profit for minimum expenditure. Currently I take a lot of personnal pride in my apartment, and only allow chosen friends to visit it, but if I could make money (not my intention as previously stated) without spending much, why would I spend any money to upgrade what I was offerring? If I have no control on who uses MY apartment why should I spend good money on it ? The exploitation COMPANY exists to make money (as do all companies) so I would doubt many would turn away a booking that would fill several apartments irrespective of who was making the booking.
As I say, I have no experience of such companies, but would value others' opinions on the point I am trying to make.
in reply to Doreen, yes I have read ( i think) all posts on this and the other forum thread, including the previous 1500 pages, and feel not much wiser !!
For what its worth heres my take:-
The fines that have been levied relate to companies letting "illegal" accomodation, no mention of court appearancies or judges rulings, just that they had acted illegally. I´m aware that this is not the UK but if someone is ordered to pay amounts of that magnitude do the courts not have to be involved ?
No individual owners have yet to be warned or taken to task, and yet the complaint seems to be its the individuals who are causing the problem by advertising via the net, i.e. engaging in a commercial activity. Excuse me but if that is the core of the problem as the Tourist board makes out then what actually is it going to do with the thousands of owners it has collected information on ? I can just imagine a scenario when these owners are issued a notice of some impending action and collectively then employ a legal team to reply. That could be some interesting battle.
I can see no reason for the authorities to hang back with any action, unless the assumption is to trap as many owners as possible, if they wanted to stop the illegal advertising surely the way forward was to "fine" one or two as an example, and watch the rest remove the said adverts. I would read into the present situation that where they can sanction a local business it is more problematic to do the same to an individual owner since there is no licence to be revoked etc.
Could you imagine a court action where the prosecution states the intention is to provide and protect the consumer (the tourist) from unscrupulous private landlords, so that it can keep up standards ?, then the defendant replies with all the benefits that the client enjoys by booking direct with the owner, (staying in someones "home from home" as opposed to some S***hole that needs TLC and even the most basic kettle and toaster),and also asks what the tourist board have been doing to this end for the last 15 years ?
Last but not least, does the tourist board think in this day and age it can do without internet advertising? seems like swimming against the tide to me, do they imagine by getting rid of private lettings the clients will continue to come here ? surely even they cant be that stupid.
Also the client has the final say where he spends his money, who does the authority think it is kidding to try and force spending through a booking agent who cares little or can do nothing when the accomodation offered is not up to scratch ? A recent comment from Loaded describes one of his apartments as poor and yet it is still up for let ! no further comment needed.
I have read through all 43 pages of the thread and I would just like to correct one or two assumptions which have been made about the reasons why tourists choose privately owned accommodation. I have been travelling to Tenerife with my husband most years since 1974 and hope to continue to do so for many years yet. Being able to choose private apartments has little to do with the cost and much more to do with the amenities in the apartments and the situation on the complex, including the view. We have stayed in both residential, (I have just discovered from the thread), and tourist complexes and have appreciated being able to choose where we are going to stay. If we book through a travel company we get little choice of apartment and may end up with something we don't like or want. It is possible to request a sea view at an extra cost but this can also be a side view mostly obscured by a palm tree with no sun during the day. I also like to have a washing machine, microwave and fridge/freezer in the apartment as I am on holiday and want all the amenities I have at home!
Not everyone who stays as a tourist has umpteen children who scream in the pool all day, or teenagers who fall back into the apartment in the middle of the night and cause chaos for the neighbours. Some, and probably many, of us like to come out and relax in the peace, quiet and sunshine after 50 weeks working hard. We love your island, spend our money in your shops and restaurants and enjoy your beaches and mountains.
I am hoping that the business of 50% + 1 will be rescinded and the government will see some sense in allowing the recent situation to continue but with more control through the ownership of the apartments, villas, etc. Should all the private accommodation be prevented in both the tourist complexes as well as the residential, then I think the Canary Islands are going to suffer enormously and I, for one, will be looking elsewhere. Don't forget that the Cape Verde Islands are now becoming popular and they are only a couple of hours further on by plane. Construction down there is proceeeding at the same rate as the south of Tenerife was in the 60's and 70's and will soon be on a par with places like Las Americas or Los Cristianos. I would regret not being able to take my annual two weeks in my favourite place but if prevented from having the holiday I desire, then I would have to look for somewhere which can provide it.
I really feel that there are a lot of squabbles about residential versus tourist accommodation and who should have what, where and why, when you should try to think laterally and consider Tenerife as tourist destination which you are fortunate enough to live in and enjoy. Your main objective should be to persuade the government to allow all types of accommodation as they do at the moment but in a more organised fashion.
By the way, if you think I am talking out of my hat, I live in one of the most expensive tourist villages in Cornwall and derive my income from tourism. Should anything happen here regarding private letting,as may happen in Tenerife, our village would die very quickly and unemployment would soar.
'wishes, hopes, desires and veiled threats' versus 'the law'. OK we will cancel THE LAW then. Don't think so.
'wishes, hopes, desires and veiled threats' versus 'the law'. OK we will cancel THE LAW then. Don't think so.
So if it is a bad law, should it not be changed or repealled ?
In that were the case we would still require a man with a flag to walk in front of all cars
No votes for women
etc etc etc....
'wishes, hopes, desires and veiled threats' versus 'the law'. OK we will cancel THE LAW then. Don't think so.
The law came out in the last century IIRC and as i've mentioned before tourist's will still be taking their jollies in 5 or 10 years time in residential complexes,As of yet not one person has disagreed with me and it was posted for all to see last week,I wonder why??? I have also asked before why is everything so hush hush,Why isn't it splashed all over the press, "simples" They don't want to scare people off from holidaying here,They could erect masive billboards, I don't have a vested interest and i am just a mere holidaymaker who likes to choose where i want to stay and i don't think much will change ...Do you?
Santiago
15-06-2011, 21:13
'wishes, hopes, desires and veiled threats' versus 'the law'. OK we will cancel THE LAW then. Don't think so.
I think you are missing the point I was making. I was trying to get you all to get together to TRY and make a representation to your government to make some alterations to the existing law as passed in 1995. If you are all arguing between yourselves as to whether it is fair to let this apartment, or that villa, etc., you are never going to get anywhere. However, groups have more say than an individual and I am sure that there are many who would back a cause to TRY and persuade your government to amend the existing law so that individual privately owned properties can be let through an existing agent as they are at present, but with some central point within each complex.
Touristic complexes have a reception for the properties owned by the company which constructed or purchased the building. At the moment this is not allowed to be used by private tourists. Is there not some way in which the agents and the owners of the of the building could come together in order to make sure that all regulations were complied with and that reception could deal with any matters of urgency?
Undoubtedly there would need to be some sort of tax, or payment, but I am sure that holidaymakers would have no objection to having this included in the price when making their booking.
Perhaps you would like to make some sort of suggestion as to how this could be attained!
Red Devil
15-06-2011, 21:13
in reply to Doreen, yes I have read ( i think) all posts on this and the other forum thread, including the previous 1500 pages, and feel not much wiser !!
For what its worth heres my take:-
The fines that have been levied relate to companies letting "illegal" accomodation, no mention of court appearancies or judges rulings, just that they had acted illegally. I´m aware that this is not the UK but if someone is ordered to pay amounts of that magnitude do the courts not have to be involved ?
No individual owners have yet to be warned or taken to task, and yet the complaint seems to be its the individuals who are causing the problem by advertising via the net, i.e. engaging in a commercial activity. Excuse me but if that is the core of the problem as the Tourist board makes out then what actually is it going to do with the thousands of owners it has collected information on ? I can just imagine a scenario when these owners are issued a notice of some impending action and collectively then employ a legal team to reply. That could be some interesting battle.
I can see no reason for the authorities to hang back with any action, unless the assumption is to trap as many owners as possible, if they wanted to stop the illegal advertising surely the way forward was to "fine" one or two as an example, and watch the rest remove the said adverts. I would read into the present situation that where they can sanction a local business it is more problematic to do the same to an individual owner since there is no licence to be revoked etc.
Could you imagine a court action where the prosecution states the intention is to provide and protect the consumer (the tourist) from unscrupulous private landlords, so that it can keep up standards ?, then the defendant replies with all the benefits that the client enjoys by booking direct with the owner, (staying in someones "home from home" as opposed to some S***hole that needs TLC and even the most basic kettle and toaster),and also asks what the tourist board have been doing to this end for the last 15 years ?
Last but not least, does the tourist board think in this day and age it can do without internet advertising? seems like swimming against the tide to me, do they imagine by getting rid of private lettings the clients will continue to come here ? surely even they cant be that stupid.
Also the client has the final say where he spends his money, who does the authority think it is kidding to try and force spending through a booking agent who cares little or can do nothing when the accomodation offered is not up to scratch ? A recent comment from Loaded describes one of his apartments as poor and yet it is still up for let ! no further comment needed.
A well thought out answer which I agree with 100% - the only time I have stayed in dumps have been when rented through a company, presumably because the absent owner is making his money on a shabby apartment with no incentive to modernise.
I do not want a 3rd party company deciding who they will put in my own apartment, residential, touristic, or whatever.
If and when a law is instigated then everyone will have a decision to make, depending on their own circumstances, but until that happens a lot of worry and unnecessary stress is being put upon innocent holidaymakers who think their holiday is going to be spoiled/cancelled after reading this thread.
Buyers have to make their own minds up, the same as they have had to do for the last 15 years.
Also the client has the final say where he spends his money, who does the authority think it is kidding to try and force spending through a booking agent who cares little or can do nothing when the accomodation offered is not up to scratch ? A recent comment from Loaded describes one of his apartments as poor and yet it is still up for let ! no further comment needed.
Unfair comment about Loaded, I believe ... I know he has refused to use some registered apartments on his books where the owners have refused to provide better quality furniture ... I bought one such apartment and it will be completely revamped.
Unfair comment about Loaded, I believe ... I know he has refused to use some registered apartments on his books where the owners have refused to provide better quality furniture ... I bought one such apartment and it will be completely revamped.
have looked back but cant see loaded´s original post, i dont recall him saying he refused to use it, if so I apologise and all power to him refusing rentals on a substandard product, however i dont imagine too many agents would do the same.
in reply to Doreen, yes I have read ( i think) all posts on this and the other forum thread, including the previous 1500 pages, and feel not much wiser !!
Also the client has the final say where he spends his money, who does the authority think it is kidding to try and force spending through a booking agent who cares little or can do nothing when the accomodation offered is not up to scratch ?
Spot on with this comment. I have holidayed all over Europe and the USA over the last 25 years .
Worst Accommodation experienced? - Hotels or 'touristic' type business run complexes run for a profit
Best Accommodation ? Privately owned and privately rented
Simple as that
hailfuzz
16-06-2011, 02:31
'wishes, hopes, desires and veiled threats' versus 'the law'. OK we will cancel THE LAW then. Don't think so.
Its replies like this that are turning this very informative/ efficient thread down the tubes. Santiago simply posted a personal opinion / view on why their preference was private accomodation . Everyone is entitled to make there views without a sarcastic / smart ar*e reply ! grow up and join the adult conversation..
I think you are missing the point I was making. I was trying to get you all to get together to TRY and make a representation to your government to make some alterations to the existing law as passed in 1995. If you are all arguing between yourselves as to whether it is fair to let this apartment, or that villa, etc., you are never going to get anywhere. However, groups have more say than an individual and I am sure that there are many who would back a cause to TRY and persuade your government to amend the existing law so that individual privately owned properties can be let through an existing agent as they are at present, but with some central point within each complex.
Touristic complexes have a reception for the properties owned by the company which constructed or purchased the building. At the moment this is not allowed to be used by private tourists. Is there not some way in which the agents and the owners of the of the building could come together in order to make sure that all regulations were complied with and that reception could deal with any matters of urgency?
Undoubtedly there would need to be some sort of tax, or payment, but I am sure that holidaymakers would have no objection to having this included in the price when making their booking.
Perhaps you would like to make some sort of suggestion as to how this could be attained!
No, I think you are missing the point. If you have read the thread, you will understand that there is more than one opinion on here. You will not Unite us (against OUR? government) when parties like Doreen (who originally titled this thread FINALLY, action on illegal lettings, T&S who bought on a residential complex, and Loaded, along with many others who have exploitation licences and have tried to operate correctly, cannot wait to see this law implemented.
Your points have been made over and over again on the 100+ page thread on the old forum and again on here, except never has it been mentioned that Cabo Verde is a viable alternative. (the threat, if I don't get what I want, I will go else where)
How many more times will we hear the same desires (quality accommodation, freedom of choice, all touristic accomodation is crap (see loaded's signature). The organization, Cuidados Europeas (sp?) tried for a good few years without success, to have some definitive changes to this Law.
If & when action is taken, it will be a compromise. Something has to happen because of the situation that this Government has allowed to happen. But I am afraid to say that we are not United and a rallying cry from afar to take action did not wash with me.
That, as I am also entitled, is my opinion (because that is all this thread, at the moment, is about, opinions).
& hailfuzz, this thread is not informative/efficient to me, it is just opinions, hopes, desires and speculation, with the odd fact thrown in by Loaded, that most people don't like so tend to try & ignore.
See your post on here #75 03/06/2011
Shugstar63
16-06-2011, 07:36
Wow......over a month on and this thread is still going in circles............the poster formerly known as shuggles63
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 07:50
I`m OCD :)
what everyone elses problem ?????
Its replies like this that are turning this very informative/ efficient thread down the tubes. Santiago simply posted a personal opinion / view on why their preference was private accomodation . Everyone is entitled to make there views without a sarcastic / smart ar*e reply ! grow up and join the adult conversation..
I have read through all 43 pages of the thread and I would just like to correct one or two assumptions which have been made about the reasons why tourists choose privately owned accommodation. I have been travelling to Tenerife with my husband most years since 1974 and hope to continue to do so for many years yet. Being able to choose private apartments has little to do with the cost ......
I think hailfuzz that if you actually read Santiagos post she is not just expressing her opinion but implying that because she has traveled for many years she KNOWS the reasons why people choose the accommodation they do. We then get the threats that if you don´t give me what I want then I'll go somewhere else :eek:
So if it is a bad law, should it not be changed or repealled ?
I think you are missing the point I was making. I was trying to get you all to get together to TRY and make a representation to your government to make some alterations to the existing law as passed in 1995. ....
Then we get the arrogance from those who think that we should change the law (in our host country) to suit their holiday needs. This is what is 'turning this thread down the tubes' people behaving like children an throwing their toys out of their pram if they dont get what they want. I am currently sitting in the UK, I certainly don´t like the way many thinks are being allowed to happen so if I shout loud enough will you change it please ... Oh by the way I am only here on holiday.
Before anyone says that I am taking sides I appreciate the island needs tourists however breaking the law is not the way, just because it happened in the past does not make it correct.
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 10:00
Then we get the arrogance from those who think that we should change the law (in our host country) to suit their holiday needs. This is what is 'turning this thread down the tubes' people behaving like children an throwing their toys out of their pram if they dont get what they want. I am currently sitting in the UK, I certainly don´t like the way many thinks are being allowed to happen so if I shout loud enough will you change it please ... Oh by the way I am only here on holiday.
Before anyone says that I am taking sides I appreciate the island needs tourists however breaking the law is not the way, just because it happened in the past does not make it correct.
I think thats what we are debating though and I resent being classed as arrogant for doing so :(
What laws are being broken if people allow guests to use their private residential apartments on an non commercial basis ie they dont own muliple units or use 3rd party agencies. ????
I accept that following some recent clarifications it would appear that internet advertising is viewed as illegal even though its not specifically mentioned as such in Article 42 c nor do I even think that has ever been tested in court.
The family and friends issue still remains unresolved for me though some posters are ascerting that that also is beyone the law as well
but again all this remains untested after 16 years.
Zara`s point that as foreigners we shouldnt contest local laws is a strange concept IMHO.
Property owners have invested heavily in the local economy which for me is almost totally reliant on tourism.
I personally have employed a local gestor/accountant for the past 9 years and to date have made sure that all local rates taxes and demands are fully paid up on time
and therefore has a full EU citizen I feel entitled at least to put a point of view over without being labelled arrogant.
I'm shocked....Zara has someone hacked your pc?
Tom & Sharon
16-06-2011, 11:03
I have read through all 43 pages of the thread and I would just like to correct one or two assumptions which have been made about the reasons why tourists choose privately owned accommodation. I have been travelling to Tenerife with my husband most years since 1974 and hope to continue to do so for many years yet. Being able to choose private apartments has little to do with the cost and much more to do with the amenities in the apartments and the situation on the complex, including the view. We have stayed in both residential, (I have just discovered from the thread), and tourist complexes and have appreciated being able to choose where we are going to stay. If we book through a travel company we get little choice of apartment and may end up with something we don't like or want. It is possible to request a sea view at an extra cost but this can also be a side view mostly obscured by a palm tree with no sun during the day. I also like to have a washing machine, microwave and fridge/freezer in the apartment as I am on holiday and want all the amenities I have at home!
Not everyone who stays as a tourist has umpteen children who scream in the pool all day, or teenagers who fall back into the apartment in the middle of the night and cause chaos for the neighbours. Some, and probably many, of us like to come out and relax in the peace, quiet and sunshine after 50 weeks working hard. We love your island, spend our money in your shops and restaurants and enjoy your beaches and mountains.
I am hoping that the business of 50% + 1 will be rescinded and the government will see some sense in allowing the recent situation to continue but with more control through the ownership of the apartments, villas, etc. Should all the private accommodation be prevented in both the tourist complexes as well as the residential, then I think the Canary Islands are going to suffer enormously and I, for one, will be looking elsewhere. Don't forget that the Cape Verde Islands are now becoming popular and they are only a couple of hours further on by plane. Construction down there is proceeeding at the same rate as the south of Tenerife was in the 60's and 70's and will soon be on a par with places like Las Americas or Los Cristianos. I would regret not being able to take my annual two weeks in my favourite place but if prevented from having the holiday I desire, then I would have to look for somewhere which can provide it.
I really feel that there are a lot of squabbles about residential versus tourist accommodation and who should have what, where and why, when you should try to think laterally and consider Tenerife as tourist destination which you are fortunate enough to live in and enjoy. Your main objective should be to persuade the government to allow all types of accommodation as they do at the moment but in a more organised fashion.
By the way, if you think I am talking out of my hat, I live in one of the most expensive tourist villages in Cornwall and derive my income from tourism. Should anything happen here regarding private letting,as may happen in Tenerife, our village would die very quickly and unemployment would soar.
This is a sensibly written post, yes, but still amazingly subjective. We already know why people choose to stay in residential accommodation, we don't need telling. I understand wanting a high spec apartment, nice views, comfortable beds, a dishwasher etc. etc. in which to spend your holidays. Many people want this, but as I've said before, if you want to take your holidays in an upmarket residential complex, then you have to buy your own. You can't justify holidaying in them just because it's what you want. What about what the residents want? You may be a nice respectful holiday maker, but many aren't. So should we put up with the ones who aren't because sometimes some of them are no problem?
The fact that you live in a tourist village in Cornwall does not qualify you to comment on the rights and wrongs of illegal lettings in Tenerife. Cornwall and Tenerife are completely different. For one, Cornwall is not really a year round peak holiday destination. Maybe your village is full to capacity in summer, but during the winter months, the "locals" probably more or less get the place back to themselves. Also, Cornwall is not about community living. In Tenerife we live in residential communities. It is a totally different way of living to the UK, we are very much "in each others pockets" and for this to work we have to have mutual respect, goals and desires for the community in which we live. I do not know in which village in Cornwall you live, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I would imagine that the tourist accommodation comprises of hotels, B&B's and independent holiday cottages. None of these equate even slightly to the residential communities in Tenerife in which you feel you should be allowed to holiday.
Spot on with this comment. I have holidayed all over Europe and the USA over the last 25 years .
Worst Accommodation experienced? - Hotels or 'touristic' type business run complexes run for a profit
Best Accommodation ? Privately owned and privately rented
Simple as that
It probably is the best, and in many part of the world it isn't illegal to rent them out, but here it is.
The "standard" of accommodation really should not even be a consideration. You can't legally let out to tourists in a residential complex, and that's all there is to it. If there isn't the standard provided in touristic sites, then it isn't for residential communities to provide it. Only by stopping this practice can the Canarian Government begin to force the tourist accommodation to improve.
Personally, I can't see the inspectors ever stopping owners from letting out their apartments on residential complexes or really wanting to.
If they did I am sure they could have done something by now.
Why would they want to? Surly they do not want to stop visitors coming to Tenerife.
Also, is anyone else apart from this forum talking about these inspectors? I have spoken to several friends in Tenerife who appear to know nothing of this.
Your several friends on the island being well informed,Spanish speaking,local newspaper reading individuals??? Just because you don't know what is happening doesn't mean that it isn't happening.
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 12:27
Your several friends on the island being well informed,Spanish speaking,local newspaper reading individuals??? Just because you don't know what is happening doesn't mean that it isn't happening.
Havnet seen anything since the report on the Pararlimentary statement in January IIRC if I am wrong or have missed something can you provide a link please :)
I'm shocked....Zara has someone hacked your pc?
Surely this cant be the Zara that was a member of the "Animal Liberation front" CND and stood on Greenham Common,:whistle::D
Sorry Zara, couldn't resist,
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 12:34
I understand wanting a high spec apartment, nice views, comfortable beds, a dishwasher etc. etc. in which to spend your holidays. Many people want this, but as I've said before, if you want to take your holidays in an upmarket residential complex, then you have to buy your own. You can't justify holidaying in them just because it's what you want. What about what the residents want? You may be a nice respectful holiday maker, but many aren't. So should we put up with the ones who aren't because sometimes some of them are no problem?
In essence then this is the dilema that the authorities have allowed to develop and cant seem to find a way out of.
How do they not harm the tourism income yet satisfy the legitimate concerns and rights of both side of this debate.
We will await with interest what conclusions they come to.
your assertion
You can't legally let out to tourists in a residential complex, and that's all there is to it.
isnt quite correct no matter how many times you make it :poke:
if it was that black and white there wouldnt be all this confusion and it wouldnt have taken 16 years to reach this point.
I'm shocked....Zara has someone hacked your pc?
No Toto nobody has hacked my laptop, and while I have not had much to say on this topic I also have, you will be surprised to learn :eyebrows: opinions.
I am sorry Peter felt that I was accusing him of being arrogant, far from it as I am sure he has given more than he has taken from the island over the years he has been here. However IMO it was arrogant for someone who comes here for 2 weeks a year to get us to >> get you all to get together to TRY and make a representation to your government <<.
If a group of residents or home owners decide to challenge the government into amending the law that is one thing, but it is still my opinion that it is audacious to expect laws to be changed because it does not suit someones holiday requirements. To back this with the threat that we could always go to Cape Verde, then again my opinion but nobody is indispensable - go and enjoy there will always be others that will replace you.
And while some may take offence at my attitude, I strongly take offence at those who provide the ammunition for others to fire.
Added after 12 minutes:
Surely this cant be the Zara that was a member of the "Animal Liberation front" CND and stood on Greenham Common,:whistle::D
Sorry Zara, couldn't resist,
:lol::lol::lol: Yes Al, the very same and for that reason, I strongly object to others saying from afar what should and should not be done for their needs. They have a choice of the whole world to spend their holidays, there is no need for them to be on a residential complex. They may be the perfect holidaymaker going, but there are others that are the tourist from hell and the fact that people who live and work here have chosen to live on a Residential complex does not seem to matter as long as their two weeks are perfect others will just have to put up with it.
So whose side am I on? I live on a residential complex where short term lets are not allowed and it suits me fine but if things were to change then I would be as angry as Tom and Sharon.
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 13:18
To back this with the threat that we could always go to Cape Verde, then again my opinion but nobody is indispensable - go and enjoy there will always be others that will replace you.
and some might say that, for someone who lives and works on a large holiday resort island which depends on tourism for its livelyhood, that the above statement might be arrogant in the extreme. :eek:
Ok, I can't remember making a comment about standards but if someone has it to hand then I'll obviously explain what I meant.
But to answer an earlier question about standards and who decides:
The law gives a broad outline of what the standards are but as Doreen has said she has just bought an apartment on Paloma Beach that we have had on our books for years and refused to rent it out because the owner would not invest in new furniture. There are others on here that we won't book as well. These apartments instead have to rely on bookings from other sources, ie their own adverts on rental websites etc.
I think my comment was if I recall something along the lines of "I have some owners who haven't set foot in their apartments for 10 years"....... that doesn't mean I haven't imposed upgrades on them - indeed I'm regularly pushing lots of owners to improve their properties, some take it better than others, after all everyone thinks there property is the best and no one likes to be told their apartment is actually not up to standard. Part of my job is to inform them of this without offending them......
However, the apartments that I do rent out, including the many that my family personally own, are all of a standard that is as advertised on our website or better. We spent most of last year refurnishing about 20-30 apartments, same again this year. That's in addition to he constant new bathrooms, floors, kitchens etc that has been going on for the last 15 years continually.
In light of that, we've seen our reviews have been outstanding over the last 18 months and we're enjoying a record year and running around 15% up on last year - which was untill this year our best year aswell.
So we must be doing something right.
Santiago
16-06-2011, 13:54
Well, I'm sorry I have upset you so much Zara! Just to clarify MY position. I have only once stayed in a residential complex some ten years ago and I didn't even know it was residential until I read it on this thread. I stay annually in a tourist complex and enjoy using an apartment which is privately owned. Incidentally, if all the owners in residential complexes are so against private letting then surely they should have checked all the conditions before purchasing.
I am not in a position to purchase an apartment in the south of Tenerife because I only visit the island for two weeks a year and would feel that the investment was pointless. I already own accommodation in this country which I happily let to holidaymakers throughout the season so I do have some experience in the matter. I enjoy being able to share a private apartment for my two weeks and very much appreciate the owners allowing me to do so.
My point, which it appears you have missed again, was that if only you could all get together with all your various viewpoints and come up with a solution which is acceptable to most, if not all, of you then this could be put to your government, (and if you live there for any part of the year then they ARE YOUR GOVERNMENT), in the hopes that some notice would be taken of the owners and holidaymakers wishes.
However, I shall retire into obscurity again and, hopefully, still enjoy my annual holiday in a privately owned apartment.
Que o vosso Deus te acompanhe
I strongly object to others saying from afar what should and should not be done for their needs. They have a choice of the whole world to spend their holidays, there is no need for them to be on a residential complex. They may be the perfect holidaymaker going, but there are others that are the tourist from hell and the fact that people who live and work here have chosen to live on a Residential complex does not seem to matter as long as their two weeks are perfect others will just have to put up with it.
So whose side am I on? I live on a residential complex where short term lets are not allowed and it suits me fine but if things were to change then I would be as angry as Tom and Sharon.
More stereotyping and discrimination.
I just hope you get the residents from hell living next door to you for years to come.
Oh how you will wish they were holidaymakers who would be gone in a few days.
Angusjim
16-06-2011, 14:30
Havnet seen anything since the report on the Pararlimentary statement in January IIRC if I am wrong or have missed something can you provide a link please :)
Heard it down the pub - pfft :eyebrows:
Well, I'm sorry I have upset you so much Zara! Just to clarify MY position. I have only once stayed in a residential complex some ten years ago and I didn't even know it was residential until I read it on this thread. I stay annually in a tourist complex and enjoy using an apartment which is privately owned. Incidentally, if all the owners in residential complexes are so against private letting then surely they should have checked all the conditions before purchasing.
I am not in a position to purchase an apartment in the south of Tenerife because I only visit the island for two weeks a year and would feel that the investment was pointless. I already own accommodation in this country which I happily let to holidaymakers throughout the season so I do have some experience in the matter. I enjoy being able to share a private apartment for my two weeks and very much appreciate the owners allowing me to do so.
My point, which it appears you have missed again, was that if only you could all get together with all your various viewpoints and come up with a solution which is acceptable to most, if not all, of you then this could be put to your government, (and if you live there for any part of the year then they ARE YOUR GOVERNMENT), in the hopes that some notice would be taken of the owners and holidaymakers wishes.
However, I shall retire into obscurity again and, hopefully, still enjoy my annual holiday in a privately owned apartment.
Que o vosso Deus te acompanhe
Checked the conditions before purchasing? The law of the land says no holiday lettings, if you can't buy something based on the law of the land then there's something wrong.
This thread now appears to be less about information and more about the arguments for and against the laws. This in turn has shown up a pecking order which means you will be berated if you don't own a house on the island. And heaven help you if you only come for a couple of weeks a year. Please stop the snobbery because it's spoiling an otherwise helpful thread.
Perhaps a notice board sticky or whatever could be set up on the side of this thread whereby Doreen, Peter and Loaded who for me, are the people really in the know, could post their latest findings regarding the law as and when they get it. By that I mean one that only they can post on and anyone interested can read. The arguing can stay on this thread.
Checked the conditions before purchasing? The law of the land says no holiday lettings, if you can't buy something based on the law of the land then there's something wrong.
Correct. There is something wrong.
The law is unenforceable and has been superceded by events. That's why the law is being changed.
Added after 3 minutes:
Perhaps a notice board sticky or whatever could be set up on the side of this thread whereby Doreen, Peter and Loaded who for me, are the people really in the know, could post their latest findings regarding the law as and when they get it. By that I mean one that only they can post on and anyone interested can read. The arguing can stay on this thread.
Excuse me, but you have no idea what knowledge or contacts I have.
Just checking the local papers for any reports, I came across this from about a month ago
http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2011/05/15/1200-empresas-reclaman-desaparicion-camas-obsoletas/345523.html
Where CEST, a powerful organisation of businesses in the South, are asking for the tourism offer to be updated ... and
Además de desarrollar estos cambios en materia de oferta turística, los empresarios también proponen eliminar de raíz la gran oferta ilegal que existe en la zona
... for the eradication of wide range of illegal tourist (beds) in the area.
Just checking the local papers for any reports, I came across this from about a month ago
http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2011/05/15/1200-empresas-reclaman-desaparicion-camas-obsoletas/345523.html
Where CEST, a powerful organisation of businesses in the South, are asking for the tourism offer to be updated ... and
Además de desarrollar estos cambios en materia de oferta turística, los empresarios también proponen eliminar de raíz la gran oferta ilegal que existe en la zona
... for the eradication of wide range of illegal tourist (beds) in the area.
Nice selection of a small piece of type there.
Not as accurate as it may appear though?
' These industralists think that the main reason of its situation was the increase of places in hotel establishments during 2004 and 2005, moment at which new beds by the effect were introduced in the market tourist moratorium. International the economic crisis, as well as the sprouting of new tourist destinies has caused that in the South of Tenerife exceed beds. In order to fill them, according to it explains the CEST, it would be necessary to recover at least to three million tourists. Besides developing these changes in the matter of tourist supply, the industralists also propose to eliminate by root the great illegal supply that exists in the zone. Next to this idea also they ask that the bureaucratic ties are made agile of immediate form to be able to undertake a commerce in the zone. For this reason, the application of the Bolkestein Directive, by that all the previous procedures are eliminated the concession of licenses, is essential for the CEST if it is wanted to impel the creation of companies.'
Albeit not the best translation, but picking out the bit that you did was a bit naughty, IMO
Added after 10 minutes:
Just checking the local papers for any reports, I came across this from about a month ago
Where CEST, a powerful organisation of businesses in the South, are asking for the tourism offer to be updated ... and
Además de desarrollar estos cambios en materia de oferta turística, los empresarios también proponen eliminar de raíz la gran oferta ilegal que existe en la zona
... for the eradication of wide range of illegal tourist (beds) in the area.
That is only the very small part of what this article says and it appears that you have taken this part of the article completely out of context for your own point of view.
In Fact, CEST actually point to the increase in hotel beds in 2004/5 as being a major part of their problem.
Google translate gives a totally different take on this article, but thanks anyway Doreen.
Red Devil
16-06-2011, 17:44
Just checking the local papers for any reports, I came across this from about a month ago
http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2011/05/15/1200-empresas-reclaman-desaparicion-camas-obsoletas/345523.html
Where CEST, a powerful organisation of businesses in the South, are asking for the tourism offer to be updated ... and
Además de desarrollar estos cambios en materia de oferta turística, los empresarios también proponen eliminar de raíz la gran oferta ilegal que existe en la zona
... for the eradication of wide range of illegal tourist (beds) in the area.
So they seem to be saying they want the accommodation offered to be upgraded and modernised, with eradication of illegal beds? still no mention of how it is going to be done and are these illegal beds touristic or residential?
I think a few people should also remember that not all residential owners dont want holidaymakers - a lot of emphasis has been given to Tom/Sharon not wanting them where they live, but they are not living in the heart of Las Americas/Cristianos - I would guess the majority of owners living on complexes in the centre of things do want to keep the holidaymakers and would happily be allowed to do so "legally"
The tourist board have a real conundrum here - do they bow to the hotels pressure and eradicate all private lets or do the sensible thing, try to regularise the situation and let everyone pay their taxes happily and legally.
They must realise this, which, in my opinion, is why no serious action has been taken over many years.
Many thanks to Doreen & Loaded for their take on the whole matter but even they must admit they have a vested interest in this thread running as long as possible - Look at the advertising Loaded gets:)
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 17:55
Just checking the local papers for any reports, I came across this from about a month ago
http://www.laopinion.es/tenerife/2011/05/15/1200-empresas-reclaman-desaparicion-camas-obsoletas/345523.html
Where CEST, a powerful organisation of businesses in the South, are asking for the tourism offer to be updated ... and
Además de desarrollar estos cambios en materia de oferta turística, los empresarios también proponen eliminar de raíz la gran oferta ilegal que existe en la zona
... for the eradication of wide range of illegal tourist (beds) in the area.
Yes D :)
but he then goes on to propose how to get rid of the "illegal" beds by proposing the removal of all licensing procedures under the Bolkestein directive
business also propose root out illegal wide range exists in the area. Along with this idea also call for an immediate speed up bureaucratic barriers to trade undertaken in the area. Therefore, the implementation of the Bolkestein directive, which removes all procedures prior to licensing, is essential for the CEST if you want to promote entrepreneurship.
I read the translation earlier and it was like reading a report on a football match but forgetting to tell us the score! It also reminded me of the late Stanley Unwin and his gobbledeygook!
CEST is a business association, not hotel exclusively. So in the article, 'illegal tourist beds' does not appear. It only mentions illegal 'activity'. Which could mean, the lucky, lucky men.
The mention in the first paragraph of 'camas' is not beds but accommodation. CEST have called upon the Canarian Public Adminstrators to do away with old and obsolete accommodation. No mention of ILLEGAL TOURIST ACCOMADATION< sorry.
Another attempt at scaremongering, methinks.
CEST is a business association, not hotel exclusively. So in the article, 'illegal tourist beds' does not appear. It only mentions illegal 'activity'. Which could mean, the lucky, lucky men.
The mention in the first paragraph of 'camas' is not beds but accommodation. CEST have called upon the Canarian Public Adminstrators to do away with old and obsolete accommodation. No mention of ILLEGAL TOURIST ACCOMADATION< sorry.
Another attempt at scaremongering, methinks.
You can't win, can you :) Nothing in the papers, they say ... well there's this ... no, you're scaremongering ... Bolkenstein is more about "Polish plumbers", but that's another story :)
So still nothing in the papers
carolethatch
16-06-2011, 19:07
I find that the people who are now residents, and have nothing good to say about "holiday makers" who dare to want top class accommodation, were holiday makers themselves once upon a time, and must have returned time and time again to finally move here. They seem the most condescending.
I find that the people who are now residents, and have nothing good to say about "holiday makers" who dare to want top class accommodation, were holiday makers themselves once upon a time, and must have returned time and time again to finally move here. They seem the most condescending.
Love the holiday makers they keep the island afloat and should be able to have a great time on a complex with a responsible agent on site who can make sure that they have a good time and are in good quality apartments (Paloma Beach and Victoria Court I, are great examples ).Residential complexes are almost guaranteed not to welcome tourists and may well ruin their holiday.It isn't just about peace and quiet for residents someone should be thinking about quality tourism and looking after the tourists.The insinuations about the local goverment,police and Spanish people in general are neither helpful or true and do little to endear us to the local population.The forum members who make the most sense are people like Doreen and Loader who take the trouble to check out what they are posting,speak the language and get involved with local life.Listen to them,they make well informed sense!
You can't legally let out to tourists in a residential complex, and that's all there is to it.
isnt quite correct no matter how many times you make it :poke:
if it was that black and white there wouldnt be all this confusion and it wouldnt have taken 16 years to reach this point.
So you can legally let to tourists on a residential complex Peter?
Please could you explain your referral to "isnt quite correct"
I read the translation earlier and it was like reading a report on a football match but forgetting to tell us the score! It also reminded me of the late Stanley Unwin and his gobbledeygook!
Deep joy in the thermilodes!
How wrong you are about some residential complexes, I made a point of asking not only residents but holidaymakers 2 weeks ago on Parque Santiago 1 & 2, which are front line PDLA,what they thought of these new laws and not one had heard of the laws and not one holiday maker even realised they were residential, They are in a fantastic location and have been supplying holiday apartments for at least the last 25 years, I have known the pool bar owners of Parque 1 for over 20 years and they wouldn't be there now if they had to rely on residents for business. Approx 40 of us had 11 consecutive new year holidays there and never in a million years did we realise they were residential.My main gripe on this thread is why were we never told about this years ago when the island was booming. I have also stayed at Paloma beach btw in a friends apartment which was excellent but i prefer PS1 & 2 location wise!
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 20:28
So you can legally let to tourists on a residential complex Peter?
Please could you explain your referral to "isnt quite correct"
Well I walked into that one I suppose me and my big mouth :)
First off "letting to tourists" really ought to read "letting to tourists within the definitions as laid down in Article 15 Ley 7 1995".
A bit pedantic I know but it is an important point.
"A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
So if I invite someone to stay at my residential apartment, which isnt a tourist establishment, and they dont receive any tourist services and I am not acting or offering ( advertising) them accomodation commercially, then under the wording of this clause they are not tourists within the terms of this particular law IMHO.
There are of course several other possible definitions we could use....family and friends.. independent travellers....invited guests... etc etc.
The only restrictions applicable that I can see then that applies to the use of accommodation on non-touristic sites are
i) It can be let on a commercial basis. ie offering goods or services as a company.
so therefore
ii) you cant "advertise" commercially for business or use an agency (a company) to obtain lettings.
Which is why I said Sharon`s original statement wasnt quite correct IMHO of course :)
Its a subjective personal opinion I know !!
but without any case law to guide us after 16 years of passing the act...and whose fault is that I would ask, what else are we suppose to do ????
So in a nutshell Peter to clear at least one point up, to start and make things less confusing
Can you or can you not rent to a tourist on a residiencial complex?
We will come to friends and family etc etc in the next points
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 21:09
Can you or can you not rent to a tourist on a residiencial complex?
I thought I had just answered that question but I will try again
NO ...not as a commercial letting to tourists ie advertising or offering tourists goods or services as a company which is what the law actually says.
Red Devil
16-06-2011, 21:21
So in a nutshell Peter to clear at least one point up, to start and make things less confusing
Can you or can you not rent to a tourist on a residiencial complex?
We will come to friends and family etc etc in the next points
Not wishing to answer on Peter's behalf - I bought my first property in Tenerife in 1998 - at the time the fact of whether you could rent or not simply wasn't classed as any problem, both my insurance company and accountant (in Tenerife) were well aware I would be renting my property in between using it myself.
At the time the internet wasn't used as an advertising medium.
Approx 3-4 years later we looked at some new apartments that were being built at the rear of El Beril called El Veril (I think).
We were told quite forcefully by the Canarian agent selling these properties that they were residential only. When I asked her what that definition was she said it meant you couldn't rent out through a 3rd party ie an agent. Anything you did yourself was considered friend or family and that was fine but she was quite adamant they did not want agents on the site.
This so called concession (ie your own lettings) may well now be considered not correct but until there is a definite ruling that is enforced by the Canarian government then I shall wait and see - Loaded and other peoples insistence that I am breaking the law may well be true but I will await the true legal position - at the moment I am being bombarded with opinions, nothing else.
I cant understand why people like yourself are so indignant now - what's changed, were you as annoyed 2, 5, 10 years ago??
Ps I live 6 months Uk, 6 months Tenerife so can be classed as neither holidaymaker or full time resident.
OK so the answer is NO
Now on a residential complex there seems to be confusion about the definition of what a tourist is
Is a tourist a person which travels to another destination and stays in accomadation that is not their own property?
or is a tourist one whom enjoys touristic activities?
Any more definitions of a tourist welcome
Red Devil
16-06-2011, 21:34
Love the holiday makers they keep the island afloat and should be able to have a great time on a complex with a responsible agent on site who can make sure that they have a good time and are in good quality apartments (Paloma Beach and Victoria Court I, are great examples ).Residential complexes are almost guaranteed not to welcome tourists and may well ruin their holiday.It isn't just about peace and quiet for residents someone should be thinking about quality tourism and looking after the tourists.The insinuations about the local goverment,police and Spanish people in general are neither helpful or true and do little to endear us to the local population.The forum members who make the most sense are people like Doreen and Loader who take the trouble to check out what they are posting,speak the language and get involved with local life.Listen to them,they make well informed sense!
Not quite true, as I have said previously, residential complexes in tourist areas on the whole welcome guests - think of El Mirador, Dinastia, PS 1 & 2 to name a few - no-one is up in arms there about tourists
Added after 2 minutes:
OK so the answer is NO
Now on a residential complex there seems to be confusion about the definition of what a tourist is
Is a tourist a person which travels to another destination and stays in accomadation that is not there own property?
or is a tourist one whom enjoys touristic activities?
Any more definitions of a tourist welcome
Just wish the Canarian goverment would answer that one for us all:)
When I stay at my cousins house in Majorca what am I?
My dictionary says Tourist one who travels for pleasure.
My dictionary says Tourist one who travels for pleasure.
That's Thailand, not Tenerife. Oops, shouldn't have joined this thread, my inbox will now struggle with all the notifications! :-)
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 22:08
OK so the answer is NO
Now on a residential complex there seems to be confusion about the definition of what a tourist is
Is a tourist a person which travels to another destination and stays in accomadation that is not their own property?
or is a tourist one whom enjoys touristic activities?
Any more definitions of a tourist welcome
I would have thought that in the context of this discussion the only definition that mattered was the one set out in Article 15 Ley 7 1995.
"A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
Tom & Sharon
16-06-2011, 22:09
You can argue about definitions of tourist all you want, but a tourist is someone who is on holiday in a place they don't normally live. That's it.
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 22:13
You can argue about definitions of tourist all you want, but a tourist is someone who is on holiday in a place they don't normally live. That's it.
Again thats not quite correct is it IMHO :)
you have omited this essential part
" and who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
clearly there are people who must fall outside this definition
or they would have just said "a tourist is someone who is on holiday in a place they don't normally live."
but they didnt. :)
and we havent even got to "facebook friends" yet :eek:
minimadmandy
16-06-2011, 22:19
We purchased a property in Victoria Court 2 in December. We have no intention of letting it out to the general public and wanted it as our holiday home, allowing some friends and family to use it free of charge. Having read the info posted here and all the links, am I right in assuming I still need to register with the official management company on the complex. I am quite happy to do this, however will they be so keen to have me register if I have no intention of letting through them and if in the future for financial reasons we decide to let the apartment to people we know and not use their services. I assume there is a certain amount of admin they will have to do regarding your registration will they be happy to do this if they get nothing from you in terms of bookings?
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 22:22
We purchased a property in Victoria Court 2 in December. We have no intention of letting it out to the general public and wanted it as our holiday home, allowing some friends and family to use it free of charge. Having read the info posted here and all the links, am I right in assuming I still need to register with the official management company on the complex. I am quite happy to do this, however will they be so keen to have me register if I have no intention of letting through them and if in the future for financial reasons we decide to let the apartment to people we know and not use their services. I assume there is a certain amount of admin they will have to do regarding your registration will they be happy to do this if they get nothing from you in terms of bookings?
I think Loaded needs to field this one :)
Tom & Sharon
16-06-2011, 22:24
Again thats not quite correct is it IMHO :)
you have omited this essential part
" and who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
clearly there are people who must fall outside this definition
or they would have just said "a tourist is someone who is on holiday in a place they don't normally live."
but they didnt. :)
and we havent even got to "facebook friends" yet :eek:
Peter, I'm not sure of your argument here. What are you trying to say?
delderek
16-06-2011, 22:32
We purchased a property in Victoria Court 2 in December. We have no intention of letting it out to the general public and wanted it as our holiday home, allowing some friends and family to use it free of charge. Having read the info posted here and all the links, am I right in assuming I still need to register with the official management company on the complex. I am quite happy to do this, however will they be so keen to have me register if I have no intention of letting through them and if in the future for financial reasons we decide to let the apartment to people we know and not use their services. I assume there is a certain amount of admin they will have to do regarding your registration will they be happy to do this if they get nothing from you in terms of bookings?
No you do not need to register either with the management or the tourist board. It may be that the apartment is already registered with the tourist board, (if the previous owners rented out) it can be de-registered if you want to. There are many comments on this thread about the managing agents, many of them without foundation. If you do not let commercially you will not have any problems from the agent.
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 22:40
Peter, I'm not sure of your argument here. What are you trying to say?
I am saying that to state "a tourist is someone who is on holiday in a place they don't normally live."
is not totally correct..... for the reasons I stated in my last post. :)
delderek
16-06-2011, 22:43
Not quite true, as I have said previously, residential complexes in tourist areas on the whole welcome guests - think of El Mirador, Dinastia, PS 1 & 2 to name a few - no-one is up in arms there about tourists
Added after 2 minutes:
Just wish the Canarian goverment would answer that one for us all:)
When I stay at my cousins house in Majorca what am I?
Some friends of mine have just sold their apartment on El Mirador,,reason, they thought they were buying on a residential complex, but got fed up with noise of holidaymakers using the apartment above them.
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 22:49
They bought on a large complex on a ground floor apartment and didnt expect to hear anyone ????
I have a permanent resident above me who goes to work evey morning at 6 30 am between 6 and 6.30 I can hear her walking about flush the toilet etc etc do I complain NEVER its part of communal living.
cainaries
16-06-2011, 22:57
I'm a Brit living permanently in the Canaries. Next week I am going back to England to stay with family for a few days and friends for a few days. I'm not paying any of them any rent but will treat them to meals out and will pay for supermarket shops, etc. So, am I a tourist? I'm travelling for pleasure and I don't have an address in the UK. I don't actually know how I would classify myself.
I wonder if they would consider a tourist to be anyone that is not with the owner?
if so would that rule out the kids coming over without mum & dad?
for instance
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 23:03
I wonder if they would consider a tourist to be anyone that is not with the owner?
if so would that rule out the kids coming over without mum & dad?
for instance
NO
because Mum and Dad arent providing them with any goods or services as a company (and mine woudnt be paying any rent)
Would a court agree with you?
Peterrayner
16-06-2011, 23:31
Would a court agree with you?
nobody has asked them yet so dont know
cainaries
16-06-2011, 23:34
But if the situation were reversed - friends come out, stay with us, buy us a couple of meals and help with the supermarket bills ... can this seriously be illegal.
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