View Full Version : The Tenerife illegal lettings thread
"I would have thought that in the context of this discussion the only definition that mattered was the one set out in Article 15 Ley 7 1995.
A tourist user or tourist is understood to be a person who uses tourist establishments and goods or receives the services these company's offer, and as a client they can demand and enjoy those services."
So what exactly are Tourist Establishments? Bars, Restaurants, Shops and supermarkets - Doesn't seem to mention accommodation :D
Tom & Sharon
17-06-2011, 09:23
I still think you're hiding behind the screen of that definition. Everything doesn't always come out exactly in translation either, as we all know.
Let's say hypothetically that your brother's wife was Chinese and they were coming on holiday to stay in your apartment, and contributing only to costs. Because his wife hadn't yet been granted a British passport, she would therefore need a visa to holiday. (Quoting this scenario, because we know someone in it.) The visa she would travel on would be a Tourist Visa. So now argue in court that she isn't a tourist?
If you like to take your holidays in a residential complex - you need to buy one
Or choose from the many thousands from websites like these...................
http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/
http://www.holiday-rentals.co.uk/
http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/
All perfectly legal unless anyone can prove otherwise in court.
We purchased a property in Victoria Court 2 in December. We have no intention of letting it out to the general public and wanted it as our holiday home, allowing some friends and family to use it free of charge. Having read the info posted here and all the links, am I right in assuming I still need to register with the official management company on the complex. I am quite happy to do this, however will they be so keen to have me register if I have no intention of letting through them and if in the future for financial reasons we decide to let the apartment to people we know and not use their services. I assume there is a certain amount of admin they will have to do regarding your registration will they be happy to do this if they get nothing from you in terms of bookings?
If you were on a complex with a registered management company then yes. I am unsure as to wether vc2 actually have a licence - I think not but will check this morning while at cabildo .
If you then decided to "board up the apartment" you could either deregister it or leave It registered invade your circumstances change.
Tom & Sharon
17-06-2011, 10:11
Or choose from the many thousands from websites like these...................
http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/
http://www.holiday-rentals.co.uk/
http://www.holidaylettings.co.uk/
All perfectly legal unless anyone can prove otherwise in court.
What a very stupid comment. It is not "perfectly legal". It is illegal.
Murder is legal unless you can prove it in court!
What a very stupid comment. It is not "perfectly legal". It is illegal.
Murder is legal unless you can prove it in court!
That's a very stupid argument. The murder laws have been tested in court. No one can say anything is illegal until a judge has interpreted the law. As yet, no judge has.
atlantico
17-06-2011, 10:32
Tourist - or holidaymaker ?
Is there a difference ?
Residential complex - or residential area?
Is there a difference?
Tourist
1.a. a person who travels for pleasure, usually sightseeing and staying in hotels
b. (as modifier) tourist attractions
2. a person on an excursion or sightseeing tour
3. (General Sporting Terms) a person travelling abroad as a member of a sports team
that is playing a series of usually international matches
4. (Transport / Nautical Terms) Also called tourist class the lowest class of
accommodation on a passenger ship
Holidaymaker - someone who travels for pleasure
Surely the correct legal term would be Holidaymaker ? (for this instance)
Residential areas - San Isidro, San Miguel, Icod, etc (up the hills)
Tourist areas - PDLA, LC, Gigantes, Caleta etc (near the sea)
so can you really expect to have Residential complex WITHIN a tourist AREA ? maybe
Can you expect to find a TOURISTIC complex in the Residential area of San Miguel ? doubt it
SO ! To make things easier, why don't they just designate Touristic AREAS, as above locations, where letting is allowed, and Residential AREAS where no tourist letting is allowed - then everyone would know where they stood. ! And holidaymakers are happy too !
Tom & Sharon
17-06-2011, 10:50
That's a very stupid argument. The murder laws have been tested in court. No one can say anything is illegal until a judge has interpreted the law. As yet, no judge has.
A law doesn't have to be tested in court before it's actually a law. You only go to court when you break it. As you obviously are. Maybe you'll be the first test case?
law
1 [law] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.
2.
any written or positive rule or collection of rules prescribed under the authority of the state or nation, as by the people in its constitution. Compare bylaw, statute law.
3.
the controlling influence of such rules; the condition of society brought about by their observance: maintaining law and order.
Peterrayner
17-06-2011, 11:03
I still think you're hiding behind the screen of that definition. Everything doesn't always come out exactly in translation either, as we all know.
Let's say hypothetically that your brother's wife was Chinese and they were coming on holiday to stay in your apartment, and contributing only to costs. Because his wife hadn't yet been granted a British passport, she would therefore need a visa to holiday. (Quoting this scenario, because we know someone in it.) The visa she would travel on would be a Tourist Visa. So now argue in court that she isn't a tourist?
Sorry but I am not hiding behind anything ..thats the law...as you are oft to say :)
and thats the definition within the law.
Where did you get the idea that its a "tourist visa" ??? its legally an "entry visa" and she would need the visa to enter the country and visas would be issued to visitors of all kinds.
Tourist - or holidaymaker ?
Is there a difference ?
Residential complex - or residential area?
Is there a difference?
Tourist
1.a. a person who travels for pleasure, usually sightseeing and staying in hotels
b. (as modifier) tourist attractions
2. a person on an excursion or sightseeing tour
3. (General Sporting Terms) a person travelling abroad as a member of a sports team
that is playing a series of usually international matches
4. (Transport / Nautical Terms) Also called tourist class the lowest class of
accommodation on a passenger ship
Holidaymaker - someone who travels for pleasure
Surely the correct legal term would be Holidaymaker ? (for this instance)
Residential areas - San Isidro, San Miguel, Icod, etc (up the hills)
Tourist areas - PDLA, LC, Gigantes, Caleta etc (near the sea)
so can you really expect to have Residential complex WITHIN a tourist AREA ? maybe
Can you expect to find a TOURISTIC complex in the Residential area of San Miguel ? doubt it
SO ! To make things easier, why don't they just designate Touristic AREAS, as above locations, where letting is allowed, and Residential AREAS where no tourist letting is allowed - then everyone would know where they stood. ! And holidaymakers are happy too !
There are plenty of tourist complexes and the law has already been made.If there were DESIGNATED TOURISTIC AREAS you can bet your bottom dollar that somebody would want to rent out on the complex that was just over the border in the RESIDENTIAL AREA where it would be cheaper to buy an apartment.Of course it wouldn't be an actual holiday rental just Aunty Dot and her 6 kids having a freebie!!!!
atlantico
17-06-2011, 11:14
agree, but generally there's a mountain, wasteland or 1KM between the obvious Tourist and Residential areas. just look on a map, circles could be drawn around tourist areas like islands
and at the end of the day, as History proves, LC and PDLA was originally built with tourists in mind - NOT residents !!
You only go to court when you break it.
What another stupid statement. So everyone who goes to court is guilty then? A court has to prove you have broken a law.
You only go to court when you are accused of something.
Sorry but I am not hiding behind anything ..thats the law...as you are oft to say :)
and thats the definition within the law.
Where did you get the idea that its a "tourist visa" ??? its legally an "entry visa" and she would need the visa to enter the country and visas would be issued to visitors of all kinds.
There is no such thing as an "Entry Visa"
There are different classifications for visas -
Student visas
Tourist visas
Business visas
Residency visas
Transit visas
You need to ensure that you have the correct type for your visit as you can't travel on one and then ask to have it changed once you arrive.
Someone else can probably clarify further but I don't think that a Visa actually guarantees you admission to the country either - it is at the discretion of the government whether to actually allow you in, even with a visa if they don't believe you are actually holding the correct visa.
agree, but generally there's a mountain, wasteland or 1KM between the obvious Tourist and Residential areas. just look on a map, circles could be drawn around tourist areas like islands
and at the end of the day, as History proves, LC and PDLA was originally built with tourists in mind - NOT residents !!
OK, but then some folks have to work there to look after said tourists and they have to sleep!!! So there were RESIDENTIAL COMPLEXES designated for them to live in and "I've got a hole in my bucket dear Liza....."
Tom & Sharon
17-06-2011, 11:28
What another stupid statement. So everyone who goes to court is guilty then? A court has to prove you have broken a law.
You only go to court when you are accused of something.
You're going round in circles. I said You only go to court when you break it. I didn't say you would be found guilty did I? You're the one who said it hadn't been tested in court. Yes, you go to court when you are accused of breaking the law. Any law. And that's what you are doing. Whether or not you would be found guilty is another argument. You seem to think you wouldn't be. Who knows? If you are the first test case, maybe we could all come and sit in the gallery, then we'd know.
You only go to court when you break it
No, you only go to court when you are ACCUSED of breaking it.
There is a massive difference.
Tom & Sharon
17-06-2011, 12:00
No, you only go to court when you are ACCUSED of breaking it.
There is a massive difference.
OK I'll give you that one. I'll rephrase it then.
If you are the first test case, the first one to be accused of breaking the law as it stands, maybe we can all sit in the gallery.
Peterrayner
17-06-2011, 12:02
OK I'll give you that one. I'll rephrase it then.
If you are the first test case, the first one to be accused of breaking the law as it stands, maybe we can all sit in the gallery.
You might be sat there an awful long time ....maybe another 16 years. :wink:
Do crocodiles live that long?
Peterrayner
17-06-2011, 12:05
BTW
@ hughsby... there is no need to call anyone "stupid" just because they dont agree with you.
@ fonica... sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Added after 4 minutes:
I was discussing this topic a few years ago with 2 residents who objected strongly to ANY lettings on our residential complex
The accused me of
"always walking a very fine line" with regards to the meaning of the 1995 laws
I answered
"and you always paint everyone with the same very broad brush with regards to the laws" :eyebrows::eyebrows:
I don't think I'd like to be accused and convicted of breaching the letting rules on residential or touristic complex's.Going by what we've seen, they have dished out some hefty fines for people advertising commercially on the internet,so why should this be any different.
And you being such a charmer!!!!!
BTW
@ hughsby... there is no need to call anyone "stupid" just because they dont agree with you.
@ fonica... sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
Added after 4 minutes:
I was discussing this topic a few years ago with 2 residents who objected strongly to ANY lettings on our residential complex
The accused me of
"always walking a very fine line" with regards to the meaning of the 1995 laws
I answered
"and you always paint everyone with the same very broad brush with regards to the laws" :eyebrows::eyebrows:
What a very stupid comment. It is not "perfectly legal". It is illegal.
Murder is legal unless you can prove it in court!
BTW
@ hughsby... there is no need to call anyone "stupid" just because they dont agree with you.
Peter, if you look back, I think you will find she was the first to call me stupid - see above.l
Added after 2 minutes:
I don't think I'd like to be accused and convicted of breaching the letting rules on residential or touristic complex's.Going by what we've seen, they have dished out some hefty fines for people advertising commercially on the internet,so why should this be any different.
Because they haven't dished out any fines at all to any owner of a residential property.
Peter, if you look back, I think you will find she was the first to call me stupid - see above.l
Added after 2 minutes:
Because they haven't dished out any fines at all to any owner of a residential property.
Yes true enough but what I was meaning was this could be the start.All guess work of course :)
We own on Victoria Court 1 and do not let out our apartment.
The sole letting agent for VC1 & VC2 is Victoria Services SL.
We registered with the Tourist Board with them ( just in case we change our minds and let) If you want anymore info pm me.
What´s happened to the guy who was renting to tourists on El Mirador?
Angusjim
17-06-2011, 12:55
What´s happened to the guy who was renting to tourists on El Mirador?
Which one, about 95% on there appear to rent to tourists (sorry probably all to friends and Family for free);)
God knows why everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel, there are plenty of definitions of a tourist in the 1995 law, the 2010 law etc.....
If you want you can re-define it as "someone who's on holiday but doesn't get you into bother for renting on a residential complex" - then it'll make you all happy. Will it be legal? No. But will it satisfy your own pedantry? I hope so!
Added after 19 minutes:
anyhoozles...... I was in the Cabildo today registering a couple of apartments and I asked about Victoria Court 1 and 2.....here is the situation:
Victoria Court 1 has a licence under ACECO - ACECO is a company set up by local businessmen back in the 90's (Peter will know of them as he was a member of ciudadanos europeos). They have over 50%+1 of the apartments registered. ACECO is a coalition of agents on VC1 so there is not a "sole letting agent" in reality but as far as the cabildo are concerned the sole letting agent is ACECO. They have about 88 of 140 apartments registered.
Victoria court 2 is also registered under Marcus Management. They do not have 50%+1 but their registrations have been allowed to continue despite not having the required amount - I asked why and got a shrug in response.
Vewwwwy interwesting!
Is it getting more confusing by the day?
God knows why everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel, there are plenty of definitions of a tourist in the 1995 law, the 2010 law etc.....
If you want you can re-define it as "someone who's on holiday but doesn't get you into bother for renting on a residential complex" - then it'll make you all happy. Will it be legal? No. But will it satisfy your own pedantry? I hope so!
Added after 19 minutes:
anyhoozles...... I was in the Cabildo today registering a couple of apartments and I asked about Victoria Court 1 and 2.....here is the situation:
Victoria Court 1 has a licence under ACECO - ACECO is a company set up by local businessmen back in the 90's (Peter will know of them as he was a member of ciudadanos europeos). They have over 50%+1 of the apartments registered. ACECO is a coalition of agents on VC1 so there is not a "sole letting agent" in reality but as far as the cabildo are concerned the sole letting agent is ACECO. They have about 88 of 140 apartments registered.
Victoria court 2 is also registered under Marcus Management. They do not have 50%+1 but their registrations have been allowed to continue despite not having the required amount - I asked why and got a shrug in response.
Vewwwwy interwesting!
Peterrayner
17-06-2011, 13:32
Victoria Court 1 has a licence under ACECO - ACECO is a company set up by local businessmen back in the 90's (Peter will know of them as he was a member of ciudadanos europeos). They have over 50%+1 of the apartments registered. ACECO is a coalition of agents on VC1 so there is not a "sole letting agent" in reality but as far as the cabildo are concerned the sole letting agent is ACECO. They have about 88 of 140 apartments registered.
Victoria court 2 is also registered under Marcus Management. They do not have 50%+1 but their registrations have been allowed to continue despite not having the required amount - I asked why and got a shrug in response.
Vewwwwy interwesting!
yes very interesting it seems they (tourismo) can re-define the law as well :)
whats good for the goose etc...............:)
God knows why everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel, there are plenty of definitions of a tourist in the 1995 law, the 2010 law etc.....
If you want you can re-define it as "someone who's on holiday but doesn't get you into bother for renting on a residential complex" - then it'll make you all happy. Will it be legal? No. But will it satisfy your own pedantry? I hope so!
Thanks, that's certainly helped to clear things up in my own mind.
I always thought tourists were.................
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42047000/jpg/_42047206_irwindaughter_pa.jpg
Thanks, that's certainly helped to clear things up in my own mind.
I always thought tourists were.................
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42047000/jpg/_42047206_irwindaughter_pa.jpg
lol. quality
and ..... http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/paul_hogan_as_michael_j_crocodile_dundee.jpg http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/paul_hogan_as_michael_j_crocodile_dundee.jpg
God knows why everyone is trying to re-invent the wheel, there are plenty of definitions of a tourist in the 1995 law, the 2010 law etc.....
If you want you can re-define it as "someone who's on holiday but doesn't get you into bother for renting on a residential complex" - then it'll make you all happy. Will it be legal? No. But will it satisfy your own pedantry? I hope so!
Added after 19 minutes:
anyhoozles...... I was in the Cabildo today registering a couple of apartments and I asked about Victoria Court 1 and 2.....here is the situation:
Victoria Court 1 has a licence under ACECO - ACECO is a company set up by local businessmen back in the 90's (Peter will know of them as he was a member of ciudadanos europeos). They have over 50%+1 of the apartments registered. ACECO is a coalition of agents on VC1 so there is not a "sole letting agent" in reality but as far as the cabildo are concerned the sole letting agent is ACECO. They have about 88 of 140 apartments registered.
Victoria court 2 is also registered under Marcus Management. They do not have 50%+1 but their registrations have been allowed to continue despite not having the required amount - I asked why and got a shrug in response.
Vewwwwy interwesting!
So if I was minded,I could get a few owners on say, Paloma beach and set up a rival management company not needing the 50%+1 everone has mentioned.If a shrug is the only response,why worry
So if I was minded,I could get a few owners on say, Paloma beach and set up a rival management company not needing the 50%+1 everone has mentioned.If a shrug is the only response,why worry
I would say that they are probably turning a blind eye to the REGISTERED sole agent not having 50%+1, not many individuals not having 50%+1
I think that's an important difference. They're basically giving the ones who bothered registering in the first place a bit of grace and leeway.
Added after 1 38 minutes:
hate to sway it but Hughysb made me laugh with that crocodile pic!
hate to sway it but Hughysb made me laugh with that crocodile pic!
That's all very well, but I think we need to stop having a laugh at Sharon's expense here. It's not very nice having your pool invaded by crocodiles at any time, and I for one won't be mentioning the word crocodiles again on this forum.
I've bought you a little gift Sharon as a way of saying sorry and hopefully to take your mind off the subject...............
http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/cr/crocs--yukon--khaki.jpg
This situation of the licence holder not having the required 50+1 exists on a few complexes including ours however despite that they dont clean or rent out the apartments they are registered with them and cleaned by the other onsite management who existed before 1995 so more confusion. David
[QUOTE=Loaded;18248]I would say that they are probably turning a blind eye to the REGISTERED sole agent not having 50%+1, not many individuals not having 50%+1
I think that's an important difference. They're basically giving the ones who bothered registering in the first place a bit of grace and leeway.
Tom & Sharon
17-06-2011, 21:55
That's all very well, but I think we need to stop having a laugh at Sharon's expense here. It's not very nice having your pool invaded by crocodiles at any time, and I for one won't be mentioning the word crocodiles again on this forum.
I've bought you a little gift Sharon as a way of saying sorry and hopefully to take your mind off the subject...............
http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/cr/crocs--yukon--khaki.jpg
Glad to see you've got a sense of humour after all. Still hate inflatable ones though!
Angusjim
18-06-2011, 11:07
I would say that they are probably turning a blind eye to the REGISTERED sole agent not having 50%+1, not many individuals not having 50%+1
I think that's an important difference. They're basically giving the ones who bothered registering in the first place a bit of grace and leeway.
Added after 1 38 minutes:
hate to sway it but Hughysb made me laugh with that crocodile pic!
Publicly flogg them and fine them the LAW is the LAW its quite clear and there is no room for interpretation as we are constantly preached to by some on here;)
OMG it's when I read threads like this that I know 200% that I made the right decision when I bought an independent house away from the tourist areas. I knew there was a reason I didn't want to live on any complex ;)
Angusjim
18-06-2011, 11:36
OMG it's when I read threads like this that I know 200% that I made the right decision when I bought an independent house away from the tourist areas. I knew there was a reason I didn't want to live on any complex ;)
Would that be a touristic or residential hillside you stay on :eyebrows:
Would that be a touristic or residential hillside you stay on :eyebrows:
Definately Residential, the Goats, chickens and ducks have been here for years:lol:
Definately Residential, the Goats, chickens and ducks have been here for years:lol:
More remote than residential i would say.:lol:
Angusjim
18-06-2011, 12:47
More remote than residential i would say.:lol:
Remote is that covered in the law ? more confusion ???:crazy:
Definately Residential, the Goats, chickens and ducks have been here for years:lol:
But were they registered with a sole farmer?
But were they registered with a sole farmer?
Probably not, I don't think they even know where they live, they seem to visit everyone in the village:lol::lol:
Probably not, I don't think they even know where they live, they seem to visit everyone in the village:lol::lol:
well its nice to have friendly neighbours
Whilst we have talked at length about illegal rentals of apartments on residential complexes,it is also illegal to rent private villas which are not on complexes or are on residential complexes although you can holiday rent "casa rurales"
Has everyone got bored, on this thread, or have "The Inspectors" rounded everyone up, holding them in an secret location & torturing them to gain confessions to illegal renting.
Has the witchunt begun !
?????????
Has everyone got bored, on this thread, or have "The Inspectors" rounded everyone up, holding them in an secret location & torturing them to gain confessions to illegal renting.
Has the witchunt begun !
?????????
Nah..............just checked the date, its" inspectors fortnight", you know its like all the towns up north used to have here in England,each town had a fortnight when the work places shutdown,and everyone went on their hols.Maybe if the inspectors look hard enough they may be a able to stay in some lovely accommodation,.......as a friend....of course:whistle::spin:
Peterrayner
26-06-2011, 06:50
The Canarians dont do fortnights......they have the whole of the summer off :)
junglejim
26-06-2011, 10:04
Has everyone got bored, on this thread, or have "The Inspectors" rounded everyone up, holding them in an secret location & torturing them to gain confessions to illegal renting.
Has the witchunt begun !
?????????
No they´re all busy watching Wimbledon !!:whistle:
it's summer all year in Tenerife, that would explain plenty !
Peterrayner
27-06-2011, 11:37
Do we have any members who are owners/residents on Parque Santiago 1??
Can they confirm a recent visit by inspectors demanding owners details from the President and knocking on doors talking to "guests" asking if they were paying rent ????
I thought it was a tourisitc site ????
Tom & Sharon
27-06-2011, 12:02
All Parque Santiago is residential as far as I know. If I was an inspector, they would be my first port of call, as they have been in the holiday brochures for years.
As far as i am aware PS1 & 2 are residential and 3/4/5 are touristic, If they stopped all 5 from letting to tourists PDLA would become a ghost town,business's would suffer massivley in that area, Also 4 of them are frontline and perfect for lettings and are in my opinion in the best location of all. Be very careful what you wish for. As i have mentioned on this thread before PS1 & 2 are very well run complexes and could put many legal sites to shame and when i posted that they would still be letting to tourists in 5 or 10 years time not one post has appeared here to disagree with me as yet.
Added after 6 minutes:
http://www.parquesantiagotenerife.co.uk/?kw=g-parque_santiago&gclid=CIzcsYCC1qkCFYpA4QodizANMg
As far as i am aware PS1 & 2 are residential and 3/4/5 are touristic, If they stopped all 5 from letting to tourists PDLA would become a ghost town,business's would suffer massivley in that area, Also 4 of them are frontline and perfect for lettings and are in my opinion in the best location of all. Be very careful what you wish for. As i have mentioned on this thread before PS1 & 2 are very well run complexes and could put many legal sites to shame and when i posted that they would still be letting to tourists in 5 or 10 years time not one post has appeared here to disagree with me as yet.
Could not agree with you more AJ,2 very well run complexes and although parque 1 & 2 are not touristic i can see no problem with them getting a touristic licence,they are slap bang in the middle of one of the best areas in Las Americas
One thing i noticed on this thread is that the main protaganists and people who have a vested interest in this old law being enforced don't seem to be getting many "Thanks" in fact at this present time it is a landslide for the ones who oppose it,mmmmmm check it out!!!
I have no vested interest and would just like to take my holidays on a complex where i want to stay and in a location that is perfect and not in the "Back of beyond"
Peterrayner
27-06-2011, 19:21
I dont have any interest in PS1 but on our own community forum it has been reported that inspectors have visited PS1 recently and taken info on owners from the President ans the inspectors are also reported has having "knocked on doors" to question guests about renting.
I was only looking to see if an owner or resident could confirm this. ???
I dont have any interest in PS1 but on our own community forum it has been reported that inspectors have visited PS1 recently and taken info on owners from the President ans the inspectors are also reported has having "knocked on doors" to question guests about renting.
I was only looking to see if an owner or resident could confirm this. ???
I was also told that they have been knocking on doors in Parque 1
Maybe they like it that much they want to rent one in PS1 (Friends and family) of course *coughs*:D
I dont have any interest in PS1 but on our own community forum it has been reported that inspectors have visited PS1 recently and taken info on owners from the President ans the inspectors are also reported has having "knocked on doors" to question guests about renting.
Could well be a few bargains coming up for grabs on PS1 if this is true.
jogger321
27-06-2011, 21:13
Gosh these inspectors are going to have to be very cunning detectives to determine whether PS1 is being used for holiday lets!
www.ownersdirect.co.uk/parque-santiago-1.htm
Peterrayner
28-06-2011, 16:15
Gosh these inspectors are going to have to be very cunning detectives to determine whether PS1 is being used for holiday lets!
www.ownersdirect.co.uk/parque-santiago-1.htm
I doubt it is as simple as some might think....:)
Its an oldish complex and therefore likley to predate the 1995 Law (a la Royal Palm) so even if it is designated "residential" it may have an existing licence and a letting agent on site.
The visit might be to regularise things... :) get non registered letting owners to register and to sort the 50% + 1 issue.
jogger321
28-06-2011, 17:23
I doubt it is as simple as some might think....:)
Its an oldish complex and therefore likley to predate the 1995 Law (a la Royal Palm) so even if it is designated "residential" it may have an existing licence and a letting agent on site.
The visit might be to regularise things... :) get non registered letting owners to register and to sort the 50% + 1 issue.
Definately Residential Peter and has never had a touristic licence. I came within a whisker of signing on the dotted line of buying an apartment there about four years ago until my British solicitor inspected the title deeds for me and pointed out to me that it was a residential apartment complex and there not legal to do the holiday lettings I needed to do in order to supplement the mortgage repayments.
Definately Residential Peter and has never had a touristic licence. I came within a whisker of signing on the dotted line of buying an apartment there about four years ago until my British solicitor inspected the title deeds for me and pointed out to me that it was a residential apartment complex and there not legal to do the holiday lettings I needed to do in order to supplement the mortgage repayments.
A good Spanish lawyer would have told you the same thing.The problem is that the advice is often ignored because "the Spanish will never do anything about it".How often have we heard this?
Peterrayner
29-06-2011, 22:33
A good Spanish lawyer would have told you the same thing.The problem is that the advice is often ignored because "the Spanish will never do anything about it".How often have we heard this?
well for the last sixteen year I think.....:whistle:
Breaking News ... and I am afraid it is not good.
It has been confirmed to me, that one individual owner of just one apartment on a Residential complex in South Tenerife, has been notified that he is to be fined 18,000 euros and has 15 days to pay or appeal. The basis for the sanction is for advertising on a website in late May and the file against him was opened in early June (the person has asked that the complex not be named, so please do not ask)
Please do reconsider any ads you may have online if you are an owner on a Residential complex :(
Are we know saying it is the advertising of apartments that is illegal,as well as renting apartments,big can of worms in my opinion???
Tom & Sharon
06-07-2011, 17:23
Breaking News ... and I am afraid it is not good.
It has been confirmed to me, that one individual owner of just one apartment on a Residential complex in South Tenerife, has been notified that he is to be fined 18,000 euros and has 15 days to pay or appeal. The basis for the sanction is for advertising on a website in late May and the file against him was opened in early June (the person has asked that the complex not be named, so please do not ask)
Please do reconsider any ads you may have online if you are an owner on a Residential complex :(
Where's Hughsyb ?
Are we know saying it is the advertising of apartments that is illegal,as well as renting apartments,big can of worms in my opinion???
That's what makes it "commercial" isn't it?
Where's Hughsyb ?
That's what makes it "commercial" isn't it?
had a tenner you,d be on here quick as you can say "denuncia"
Tom & Sharon
06-07-2011, 17:30
had a tenner you,d be on here quick as you can say "denuncia"
Any chance you know Friday's Euromillions numbers as well?:lol::lol::lol:
had a tenner you,d be on here quick as you can say "denuncia"
I had 6 minutes 17 seconds in the Sweep...gah :whistle::D
Are we know saying it is the advertising of apartments that is illegal,as well as renting apartments,big can of worms in my opinion???
It is the short term commercial letting of residential apartments, in this case it seems proved by advertising on a website .. and no, I do not know if someone knocked on the door, or made a false booking.
delderek
06-07-2011, 19:23
Breaking News ... and I am afraid it is not good.
It has been confirmed to me, that one individual owner of just one apartment on a Residential complex in South Tenerife, has been notified that he is to be fined 18,000 euros and has 15 days to pay or appeal. The basis for the sanction is for advertising on a website in late May and the file against him was opened in early June (the person has asked that the complex not be named, so please do not ask)
Please do reconsider any ads you may have online if you are an owner on a Residential complex :(
This is also posted on another forum, by a similar well respected poster.
This is also posted on another forum, by a similar well respected poster.
And it is that respected poster that I have to thank for the information :)
This is also posted on another forum, by a similar well respected poster.
Which has to do with what exactly?
delderek
06-07-2011, 22:27
Which has to do with what exactly?
Meaning that the people referred to, post factual information, not rumours.
Meaning that the people referred to, post factual information, not rumours.
You're quite correct Del.
Looking back on my post it does come across as a bit abrupt, that wasn't meant to be the case. :-)
So am I right in saying we now have reports of :
Management companies getting fined for letting properties that are unregistered.
An Owner on a holiday complex (club atlantis) that was fined 18,000 for renting his own place out without being registered with the sole agent.
And
An owner on an as yet un named residential complex for renting his own property to holiday makers.
So am I right in saying we now have reports of :
Management companies getting fined for letting properties that are unregistered.
An Owner on a holiday complex (club atlantis) that was fined 18,000 for renting his own place out without being registered with the sole agent.
And
An owner on an as yet un named residential complex for renting his own property to holiday makers.
I'm not sure, and by the lack of response, it doesn't look like anyone else is sure. Do you think you could be right? or was it more of a statement than a question and do you really need clarification?
So am I right in saying we now have reports of :
Management companies getting fined for letting properties that are unregistered.
An Owner on a holiday complex (club atlantis) that was fined 18,000 for renting his own place out without being registered with the sole agent.
And
An owner on an as yet un named residential complex for renting his own property to holiday makers.
Reading back on this and the previous thread on this subject I would say that pretty much sums up the situation, except that the most recent two incidents appear to be facts rather than speculation, especially this time.
What has also been clarified by "professionals" as opposed to "Bar Experts" is that once they have collected the necessary evidence and are certain of their position the inspectors issue the fines (not issue a sumons to appear in court as per the UK), if you get notification of a fine it is THE fine, nothing else.
Of course, under Spanish Law we all have the right of appeal against the imposition of a sanction like this, but if the inspectors have enough evidence to have issued the sanction in the first place I wouldn't fancy your chances in court, nor the costs. It would take a very brave (and wealthy) individual to challenge their fine and of course one day such a person will do so and the outcome will probably help to guide the level of future sanctions, but the reality is that those of us who knowingly acted outside of Spanish Law have to take the risks. Whether we individually or collectively feel the rules are wrong or the Government is shooting the tourist industry in the feet is of no consequence - it is their country and if we want to live here we have to abide by their laws.
Angusjim
07-07-2011, 10:10
So am I right in saying we now have reports of :
Management companies getting fined for letting properties that are unregistered.
An Owner on a holiday complex (club atlantis) that was fined 18,000 for renting his own place out without being registered with the sole agent.
And
An owner on an as yet un named residential complex for renting his own property to holiday makers.
As usual Loaded you come across as being very smug its not what you say its just the way you put it across :fryingpan:
So am I right in saying we now have reports of :
Management companies getting fined for letting properties that are unregistered.
An Owner on a holiday complex (club atlantis) that was fined 18,000 for renting his own place out without being registered with the sole agent.
And
An owner on an as yet un named residential complex for renting his own property to holiday makers.
Having read this thread and seen what is being reported elsewhere on this subject, I suggest you get your head out of the clouds and start smelling the coffee. These reports of fines being levied are for real and they are probably only the tip of the iceberg.
Shugstar63
07-07-2011, 10:40
As usual Loaded you come across as being very smug its not what you say its just the way you put it across :fryingpan:
Agreed....as Banarama once sang......its not what you do its the way that you do it......
This thread shouldn't really be about who is smug or not, rather the implications of the new push to actually enforce this law. As reported elsewhere, three more owners on the same complex are now known to have received notifications of fines.
Not smug at all, I'm jsut recapping an summarizing the thread, it's not like I put a smiley on the end of it is Jim? Maybe stop being such a prick and read words for what they are.
londoner
07-07-2011, 16:28
why the big secret mirador you can run but you cant hide
why the big secret mirador you can run but you cant hide
I actually thought it was another complex ... are we sure it is El Mirador ???
Leam_Lin
07-07-2011, 17:25
I actually thought it was another complex ... are we sure it is El Mirador ???
My thoughts were Dinastia.
yeah my mate lives in there and theey are all renting out even thoe they have signs saying resdential only mmmmmmmmmm
I think El Mirador will be a big fat easy target for the inspectors - as you say, they´re all at it on there!
Woah!!! I don't think some of you realise the consequences if this unworkable law comes into force, Can you imagine the knock on effect to business if you were not allowed to let on El Mirador or all the Parque Santiago's etc, Bars and Restaurante's closing,staff no longer required, Cleaners,exchange shops, the knock on effect would be disastrous...Be very very careful what you wish for!!!
These inspectors must be like Dumber & Dumber 3 known hits in 7 months so only another 440,000 to go, I will see you by the pool in 2035... Pint anyone? Can we have a Tumbleweed smiley please :D
Can you imagine the knock on effect to business if you were not allowed to let on El Mirador or all the Parque Santiago's etc,
You´re not allowed to let on Parque Santiago I and II or El Mirador... This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not something that "might happen." It is illegal to let to tourists on these complexes today. It seems the authorities, after pretty much turning a blind eye to this for such a long time, are now going to enforce these letting laws.
Santiago
07-07-2011, 22:08
Woah!!! I don't think some of you realise the consequences if this unworkable law comes into force, Can you imagine the knock on effect to business if you were not allowed to let on El Mirador or all the Parque Santiago's etc, Bars and Restaurante's closing,staff no longer required, Cleaners,exchange shops, the knock on effect would be disastrous...Be very very careful what you wish for!!!
These inspectors must be like Dumber & Dumber 3 known hits in 7 months so only another 440,000 to go, I will see you by the pool in 2035... Pint anyone? Can we have a Tumbleweed smiley please :D
As I mentioned before - the Cape Verde islands are only a couple of hours further south!!
As I mentioned before - the Cape Verde islands are only a couple of hours further south!!
I have been there for a nosy, it was closed, tenerife is the biggest destination at christmas in all europe, so dont give up on it, think of the rent, when there is a shortage of legal apartments, buy now while stocks last,
You´re not allowed to let on Parque Santiago I and II or El Mirador... This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not something that "might happen." It is illegal to let to tourists on these complexes today. It seems the authorities, after pretty much turning a blind eye to this for such a long time, are now going to enforce these letting laws.
OK this is the 4th time i've asked this question over maybe 6 months and i still haven't had one reply or disagreeing with me...I think i know why, So i will ask once again, Will people still be renting on these so called residencial complexes in 5/10 years time. A simple yes or no would suffice?
Santiago
07-07-2011, 22:34
OK this is the 4th time i've asked this question over maybe 6 months and i still haven't had one reply or disagreeing with me...I think i know why, So i will ask once again, Will people still be renting on these so called residencial complexes in 5/10 years time. A simple yes or no would suffice?
I don't think anyone knows the answer, Al. It would seem almost impossible to stop it completely but if the law is to be adhered to, then it has to stop. How that is going to happen - who knows? I can't see the enforcers fining everyone who lets illegally but if they fine one person then they have to fine all of them. I think it is just a "wait and see what happens" situation.
Tom & Sharon
07-07-2011, 22:49
Of course you can't fine everyone - you have to catch them first!
It's like drink/driving. You'll get away with it for so long, and then you'll get caught. Some will get caught straight away, and some will get away with it for years.
It's a gamble. How lucky will you be?
I'm pretty sure it was "dumb and dumber" not "dumber and dumber".
#justsaying
AL JAY makes a really valid point.To all you people who live over there please be aware that things are changing over here in the UK, expendable income is falling, people are contemplating either holidaying in the UK i e odd days out here or there,or if they do go abroad they will still go on those holiday letting sites that have now being used to prosecute Tenerife owners.Because let me tell you,people in Portugal,Mainland Spain,France,greece,turkey.etc will still continue to let.As was said before be careful what you wish for.
You´re not allowed to let on Parque Santiago I and II or El Mirador... This is not a hypothetical situation. This is not something that "might happen." It is illegal to let to tourists on these complexes today. It seems the authorities, after pretty much turning a blind eye to this for such a long time, are now going to enforce these letting laws.
Im presuming you give potential buyers this info before they decide to purchase from you!
I can see it now, hello mr M these apartments are very expensive, and you cant even rent them out! Have I got a sale?
Myself & Santiago will be very lucky because we don't own apartments,We just want to stay in really nice well equipped Apartments that are in a location where we want to stay. We don't want to be in the back of beyond or up cardiac hill and as holidaymakers we are not breaking the law. And im sure i will be taking many more holidays where i want to stay,end of.
The vast majority of Parque 1 & 2 ( holiday lets ) are repeat business who have been coming over for years. None of the owners I know advertise on the net, and are not particularly worried about the clampdown. I doubt very much you will have a problem continuing to stay there AL, whatever the law states.
I'm pretty sure it was "dumb and dumber" not "dumber and dumber".
#justsaying
I am talking about the 2003 TV series ...You Dumbo! Not only do your posts scream of schadenfreude you are also crap at patronising efforts!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386181/
Tom & Sharon
07-07-2011, 23:27
Im presuming you give potential buyers this info before they decide to purchase from you!
I can see it now, hello mr M these apartments are very expensive, and you cant even rent them out! Have I got a sale?
You don't know him then!
Myself & Santiago will be very lucky because we don't own apartments,We just want to stay in really nice well equipped Apartments that are in a location where we want to stay. We don't want to be in the back of beyond or up cardiac hill and as holidaymakers we are not breaking the law. And im sure i will be taking many more holidays where i want to stay,end of.
You probably will. You're not doing anything wrong.
But the owners are! And one day they'll get caught. At that time, it will be up to them to decide whether or not it is worth it.
Im presuming you give potential buyers this info before they decide to purchase from you!
I can see it now, hello mr M these apartments are very expensive, and you cant even rent them out! Have I got a sale?
This could already be working in my favour.I'm getting extra enquiries for my apartment which is for sale on a touristic complex :):)
That means some agents are doing their homework.
The vast majority of Parque 1 & 2 ( holiday lets ) are repeat business who have been coming over for years. None of the owners I know advertise on the net, and are not particularly worried about the clampdown. I doubt very much you will have a problem continuing to stay there AL, whatever the law states.
Exactly, I have been staying there since they were built in the early 80s and what made them laugh when i was over last month was that a lot of the one's who want this silly law implemented have only lived here 5 minutes! I bumped into Tommy btw but thats another story.:crazy::D
I am talking about the 2003 TV series ...You Dumbo! Not only do your posts scream of schadenfreude you are also crap at patronising efforts!
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386181/
I'm sorry I haven't perfected the art yet, I'll give you a shout for tips.
Of course you were referring to the well known 2003 tv series and not the lesser known , jim carey movie of a similar title....
I love how you posted the link too in case anyone thought you'd invented that series.
Exactly, I have been staying there since they were built in the early 80s and what made them laugh when i was over last month was that a lot of the one's who want this silly law implemented have only lived here 5 minutes! I bumped into Tommy btw but thats another story.:crazy::D
I stayed with him last week for a few days, came home Friday and was rushed to Hospital on the Saturday !! Say no more !! Ha Ha!
AL JAY makes a really valid point.To all you people who live over there please be aware that things are changing over here in the UK, expendable income is falling, people are contemplating either holidaying in the UK i e odd days out here or there,or if they do go abroad they will still go on those holiday letting sites that have now being used to prosecute Tenerife owners.Because let me tell you,people in Portugal,Mainland Spain,France,greece,turkey.etc will still continue to let.As was said before be careful what you wish for.
AJ
Whilst what you say is not new, especially about how the UK takes it holidays and so on, the point is that it has nothing to do with us people that live over here, and everything to do with the Government of the place over here where we live.
The combined (not just Brit) ex-Pat population of the island is less than 15%, even combining our forces (which will never happen) we have precious little influence over the law-makers here. Yes I would think almost all the ex-Pat population would be in agreement that the Government here is making a huge mistake in enforcing this law as they seem hell bent on doing, but you have to understand why they are now doing so. Thousands of Canarians (250,000 of them) are out of work - the best part of 30% of the population. A huge proportion of these people used to work in the hotel and tourist industry which in turn believes that it is losing business to unregistered letting of property by, in the main but not exclusively, the Ex Pats.
The huge growth of the internet since the law was drawn up has meant that in recent years, especially since the onset of the recession, it is very easy to advertise your unregistered let and because it will be inherantly cheaper, it has worked well until now.
There will always be some unregisterd property available in the coming years, and I can see pressure rising for more touristic licences being granted as time goes on, but it is not us that live over here doing this, the law has been in place for 15 plus years and the Government are now enforcing it.
Shame maybe, dangerous even, but it's not us - it's them !!
And on another note I think it's unfair to say I indulge in "schadenfreude". While I admit it makes you sound more intelligent than you are I don't think any of my posts or the information I've posted can be described as "taking pleasure in others misfortune".... In fact I have gone to great lengths to help people NOT suffer misfortune by painstakingly translating the law and writing articles about it tonmake them aware of this law which I know have been useful to both prospective buyers and current owners alike.
Throughout this thread and the original on tf.com every bit of the info given by people like myself has been baulked at and derided as rubbish that will never happen, bit by bit the info has proved to be more and more correct despite the "ever growing new advertisers on holiday lettings.com".....
Muppet
I understand it completely, Read my post about 30 pages back, Back in the heyday and still to this day "Brown envelopes rule" (see the El Barranco thread) Remember this is Tenerife and it will still be going on when we are all kicking up daisies. Why has it took 16 long years for the authorities to act. My main gripe is i don't want Tenerife to lose anymore holidaymakers because many parts are already like a ghost town,can you imagine El Mirador strip if no one stayed in any of the residencial complexes that are in the local vicinity, Can you imagine Christmas/New year with no Parque Santiago's, The Patch would be empty, In saying that its been empty on my last 2 visits but people want to scare away thousands more, Crazy!!!
Added after 12 minutes:
And on another note I think it's unfair to say I indulge in "schadenfreude". While I admit it makes you sound more intelligent than you are I don't think any of my posts or the information I've posted can be described as "taking pleasure in others misfortune".... In fact I have gone to great lengths to help people NOT suffer misfortune by painstakingly translating the law and writing articles about it tonmake them aware of this law which I know have been useful to both prospective buyers and current owners alike.
Throughout this thread and the original on tf.com every bit of the info given by people like myself has been baulked at and derided as rubbish that will never happen, bit by bit the info has proved to be more and more correct despite the "ever growing new advertisers on holiday lettings.com".....
There you go again lighting the blue touch paper,How do you know how intelligent i am, Tell you what Mr Brainbox count the thanks to the posts in this thread,You don't appear to have many, I see you have learned to google,You probably thought Schadenfreude played in the German Bundesliga.;)
*SWOOSH..... Opens Banter net*
Whilst what you say is not new, especially about how the UK takes it holidays and so on, the point is that it has nothing to do with us people that live over here, and everything to do with the Government of the place over here where we live.
The combined (not just Brit) ex-Pat population of the island is less than 15%, even combining our forces (which will never happen) we have precious little influence over the law-makers here. Yes I would think almost all the ex-Pat population would be in agreement that the Government here is making a huge mistake in enforcing this law as they seem hell bent on doing, but you have to understand why they are now doing so. Thousands of Canarians (250,000 of them) are out of work - the best part of 30% of the population. A huge proportion of these people used to work in the hotel and tourist industry which in turn believes that it is losing business to unregistered letting of property by, in the main but not exclusively, the Ex Pats.
The huge growth of the internet since the law was drawn up has meant that in recent years, especially since the onset of the recession, it is very easy to advertise your unregistered let and because it will be inherantly cheaper, it has worked well until now.
There will always be some unregisterd property available in the coming years, and I can see pressure rising for more touristic licences being granted as time goes on, but it is not us that live over here doing this, the law has been in place for 15 plus years and the Government are now enforcing it.
Shame maybe, dangerous even, but it's not us - it's them !!
If you have chosen to live in Spain, Spanish law applies, whether you agree with it or not; if you don't like living under Spanish law move back to the UK.
The authorities gave ample warning that this would be happening; if you were breaking the law when they issued their warning and are carrying on doing so, if you get caught, you have to accept the consequences, however harsh they may seem.
It is definitely short-sighted of the powers that be as the people who have been renting private apartments are highly unlikely to book into hotels - they are much more likely to book their holiday in a location where they can still chose to rent privately; it won't actually help the local hotels and businesses on Tenerife and it won't improve the spending power of the visitors , especially now that a lot of the package holiday companies are switching all their efforts to selling Fully Inclusive packages.
Surely it would make more sense to set a standard for holiday rental accommodation and start inspecting ALL holiday rentals to ensure that they meet this standard.
They also need to fix this stupid 50%+1 ruling on touristic complex's that was introduced some years ago.It's not healthy doing away with competition which just pushes prices up for the tourists and the owners of the property who are forced to use them get less and less returns because of the sheer greed.
Im presuming you give potential buyers this info before they decide to purchase from you!
I can see it now, hello mr M these apartments are very expensive, and you cant even rent them out! Have I got a sale?
Yes - I certainly do. It has cost sales, that I am sure of, but I do not mislead clients. They are all told that if they are contemplating buying on a residential complex they cannot legally rent out that property to holidaymakers.
Do you do the same? Or are you no longer an estate agent?
londoner
08-07-2011, 11:01
DINASTIA just heard that this morning several owners have been hit with fines, will keep you updated
Yes - I certainly do. It has cost sales, that I am sure of, but I do not mislead clients. They are all told that if they are contemplating buying on a residential complex they cannot legally rent out that property to holidaymakers.
Do you do the same? Or are you no longer an estate agent?
Hey Andy, stop giving my secrets away! My policy is to always tell the truth, otherwise it will only come back to you and bite you on the bum, and also your reputation will soon go down the drain, then, you business as gone. Having said that im sure there are people out there who wont turn 10-15000 commission down, and im sure you are well aware of this. This is why agents here, and many other places, dont have the best of reputations. Unfortunately this is the real world, and if someone can get their hands on that kind of commission they will.
I agree with AJP ( regarding how this law will deter tourists from visiting the island ) and I understand completely the residents point of view that this is the law and must be upheld. Its unfortunate thath tourist complexes ( IN GENERAL) are not of a sufficient standard in Tenerife to entice my family to stay. Just on another point, any private apartment we have stayed in has always cost more than the tourist complexes nearby. We feel it is worth paying for the far superior accomodation. I, for one, am now looking at Portugal, mainland Spain and Italy for next years hols.:cry:
atlantico
08-07-2011, 12:03
I bet there are 'honest' estate agents who DO inform potential buyers of the illegal letting laws . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . but then proceed to mention that everyone ignores it and nowts been done about it for 16 years
present forum member agents excluded, obviously !!
Ps. My agents for 3 properties NEVER said I couldn't rent out, but NEVER said I could either. But then I was buying residential anyway and didn't really want/need to rent out
Any further info on the Diniastia fines? is it more than one owner or just one?
I bet there are 'honest' estate agents who DO inform potential buyers of the illegal letting laws . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . but then proceed to mention that everyone ignores it and nowts been done about it for 16 years
present forum member agents excluded, obviously !!
Ps. My agents for 3 properties NEVER said I couldn't rent out, but NEVER said I could either. But then I was buying residential anyway and didn't really want/need to rent out
I told a client recently about not being able to rent out if he bought on El Mirador - shocked face as he was staying there on holiday at the time!
Another on Windsor Park told me they know its a residential complex but "everybody does it" so they wouldn´t be put off and had already spoken with a letting agent who assured them it was all kept under the radar.
I give them the info, its up to them what they do with it. I am very clear on the fact that it is illegal, there are inspectors kicking around, the law is now being enforced and fines have been issued.
But, many have done their homework and are happy to buy on some residential complexes as they think they can generate enough bookings without having to advertise - their choice what they do with the information I provide but I assure you there is no bull**** from me when I do a viewing. I dont need the hassle of someone rocking up in 6 months time and going mental because I have misled them into blowing their life saving on an apartment that they cannot make any income from.
I would hope that if people are lied to and have wasted their money that they would name and shame the agents involved but I very much doubt they ever will. It just doesnt seem to happen.
Another on Windsor Park told me they know its a residential complex but "everybody does it" so they wouldn´t be put off and had already spoken with a letting agent who assured them it was all kept under the radar.
Not herslave, I hope ;)
I know another agency, Clear Blue Skies, that are losing clients because they insist, when selling villas, on saying how things are at the moment and informing clients fully ... but other agents are saying Nonsense and some buyers seem to go with those who say what they want to hear :(
Has anyone heard what the Tourist board in Adeje has to say about illegal renting out and what about owners who pay tax on their - presumably - illegal gotten gains?
I know several people who pay their tax on their renting whilst owning and living as swallows in a residential area.
there isn't a tourist board for the councils, just one for the island
I thought there was a tourist board by the Thomsons office in Adeje/Fanabe area?
I think that's a tourist info office only ??
There is a branch of the Cabildo in Valdes Centre in Los Cris but it's just an admin office tosave people going to Santa Cruz each time.
I bet there are 'honest' estate agents who DO inform potential buyers of the illegal letting laws . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . but then proceed to mention that everyone ignores it and nowts been done about it for 16 years
present forum member agents excluded, obviously !!
Ps. My agents for 3 properties NEVER said I couldn't rent out, but NEVER said I could either. But then I was buying residential anyway and didn't really want/need to rent out
Atlantico, I have always considered you a friend and will keep you in mind should we need a place to stay next time in Tenerife;)
londoner
08-07-2011, 15:20
Has anyone heard what the Tourist board in Adeje has to say about illegal renting out and what about owners who pay tax on their - presumably - illegal gotten gains?
I know several people who pay their tax on their renting whilst owning and living as swallows in a residential area.
well at least they wont get fined for tax evasion
perhaps they'll be due a rebate?
#itneverhappened
[QUOTE=doreen;55572]Not herslave, I hope ;)
Didn't they already go through this with you before about them being a 'LONG LET LEGAL AGENCY'.
Change the record.
Being serious for a minute, if the earnings on the rentals was illegal, how could the local government charge tax on them?
they don't differenciate between long letting and short letting tax - it's just letting tax or non letting tax
atlantico
08-07-2011, 17:35
Atlantico, I have always considered you a friend and will keep you in mind should we need a place to stay next time in Tenerife;)
No, No , No you're NOT !
My real friends pay me £200 a week expenses !!!
No, No , No you're NOT !
My real friends pay me £200 a week expenses !!!
Incidentally how much are you charging for long lets?i suppose they don't have to be friends do they?:)
londoner
09-07-2011, 09:55
Any further info on the Diniastia fines? is it more than one owner or just one?
i am told 4 owners have been contacted
next week other complexes will be targeted, all in tenerife south
i am told 4 owners have been contacted
next week other complexes will be targeted, all in tenerife south
Do you have a source for that information?
And still we've heard nothing straight from the horse's mouth.
How about renting to your agent on a long let and letting him do what he wants with it?
So the investigations are happening as are the fines. All the doubters have been proved wrong and the people in the know proved right.
I wonder if it's time to move the debate on (a new thread ?) to see exactly how things can be made better for one and all.
Nobody wants to see the tourist trade hit, nobody wants to see people who have bought on residential sites upset, but at the same time, it would not be nice to see people unable to afford their mortgages because they can not raise money by renting out (whether they knew or not!).
Is there a solution or even a happy medium that could be struck, without the cries of ''they should have known better? '' ''it's their own fault'' and ''NIMBY''? (These posts really have been exhausted - and YES I know It's The Law!!)
Because, whatever some might say, if renting out on residential complexes is completely outlawed, it IS going to hurt the tourist industry (I know I am one who has used these complexes and the standard of decor, white goods and in-apartment facilities IS better than the touristic complexes).
I love Tenerife, and I love it most when it is busy, thriving and buzzing with life!
Can we not all work together to make sure it stays that way?
Do you have a source for that information?
And still we've heard nothing straight from the horse's mouth.
Okay, I have not seen the document myself, but was speaking with someone who had a copy of the proposed 18.000 euro fine and I put them in touch with my lawyer to lodge an appeal before the 15 day period is up ... not quite sure how much more you need to believe it to be real.
Okay, I have not seen the document myself, but was speaking with someone who had a copy of the proposed 18.000 euro fine and I put them in touch with my lawyer to lodge an appeal before the 15 day period is up ... not quite sure how much more you need to believe it to be real.
Thank you Doreen.
I wasn't inferring that I didn't believe it to be for real.:)
Word is that the fines are reduced to just a few thousand, with any luck this will be the case here but will a small fine deter others?
Word is that the fines are reduced to just a few thousand, with any luck this will be the case here but will a small fine deter others?
How can that be if no appeals have yet gone to court? Are the fines like speeding fines - discounts for good behaviour?
I'd say that is gossip personally
Keep appealing and it will be brought down to around 10-20% of original fine
junglejim
09-07-2011, 15:46
Keep appealing and it will be brought down to around 10-20% of original fine
And then what..? You can't rent anymore ?
atlantico
09-07-2011, 15:48
next time you're caught, no reduction ? Pay the €18k ??
londoner
09-07-2011, 16:05
Do you have a source for that information?
And still we've heard nothing straight from the horse's mouth.
we are second generation born and brought up in tenerife, educated in spain and uk
if you met us in the many bars we drink you would never know as we speak english in our parents sllght cockney accent, we have jobs in all key positions here in tenerife.
i dont discuss with family and colleagues my membership on this forum, they would be bemused. i am not giving any specific target knowledge in advance so my employers have no reason to worry.
if
And then what..? You can't rent anymore ?
That's already the case isn't it?
It seems to me the only time some posters and owners will believe it is true is when a letter drops through the letter box.
Or the Judge say's take them down.:)
Do you have a source for that information?
And still we've heard nothing straight from the horse's mouth.
Is Sleepy really Hughsyb in disguise ??
He seems to have the same blinkered attitude to this problem.
Is Sleepy really Hughsyb in disguise ??
He seems to have the same blinkered attitude to this problem.
Try reading post #642 or do you need further clues:rolleyes::wall:
Thank you Doreen.
I wasn't inferring that I didn't believe it to be for real.:)
Try reading post #642 or do you need further clues:rolleyes::wall:
I might be missing something here but I don't see anything in post 642 which is relevant to my question.
I might be missing something here but I don't see anything in post 642 which is relevant to my question.
Yes you are missing something!
Firstly I'm not Hughsyb in disguise :)
Secondly..in an earlier post, what I said was 'And still we've heard nothing straight from the horse's mouth'.Meaning that nobody had come forward on the forums and actually confirmed that they have been fined for illegal letting.I'm fully aware from a reliable source(Doreen) that people have been fined.
Yes you are missing something!
Firstly I'm not Hughsyb in disguise :)
Secondly..in an earlier post, what I said was 'And still we've heard nothing straight from the horse's mouth'.Meaning that nobody had come forward on the forums and actually confirmed that they have been fined for illegal letting.I'm fully aware from a reliable source(Doreen) that people have been fined.
Do you think anybody would actually put their hands up and admit on this forum they had received a letter. After what has been posted on here nobody body would face up to the fact of being wrong and loosing face even if they did have a fine to pay.
Red Devil
11-07-2011, 20:58
Just idly browsing illegal holiday lets in Google makes me realise how many years this problem has been going on in mainland Spain and the Balearics.
One blogger on the Alcudia Pollensa forum put it very well when he said "holiday lets are illegal because there is no mechanism to make them legal, which is just how the government seems to want it"
Just idly browsing illegal holiday lets in Google makes me realise how many years this problem has been going on in mainland Spain and the Balearics.
One blogger on the Alcudia Pollensa forum put it very well when he said "holiday lets are illegal because there is no mechanism to make them legal, which is just how the government seems to want it"
Is it not illegal only in the Canaries? I thought it was a local government initiative>:confused:
Tenerife Property
11-07-2011, 21:26
Have you ever asked yourself why a Government would choose to do something about this in such hard times? Bearing in mind most of the fines have been levvied on foreigners the Spanish Government can't go wrong with this one. The tourists will just go all inclusive in Spanish Hotels...an all win situation.
The tourists will just go all inclusive in Spanish Hotels...an all win situation.
The tourists are more likely to go to Turkey, Egypt, etc etc....
Tenerife Property
11-07-2011, 21:40
You may well be right on that one, I have always thought the holiday companies control best value to increase their own profit margins?
The tourists will just go all inclusive in Spanish Hotels...an all win situation.
They would seriously have to upgrade all inclusive hotels in Tenerife if that was the idea behind it.
Tenerife Property
11-07-2011, 21:51
I doubt that the holiday companies pay the hotels enough to upgrade their facilities!
Online travel agents charge anything from 10 to 25% commission on bookings. Here's the breakdown of the big boys :
Expedia : 25%+5% tax
TUI : 25%
Booking.com 15%
Venere 15%
travel republic 10%
So you can appreciate a little more why Some of the sole rental Agents don't pay that much. Some massive chunks of the pie are given away to OTAs and then they've got to clean and change linen and towels etc plus run and man reception, pay those pesky owners and still make some money out of it all!!
Added after 2 minutes:
And in all if that be competitive on price or be buried by the other complexes that are cheaper than you
I saw this post by a new member, miffed-owner, on the Future thread and feel it should be added here for information. Parque Santiago 1 and possibly 16 owners to be fined:
I would be very interested to join with or provide information for that. My family have owned and let a single property on PS1 since it was first opened, we currently (or rather until a few hours ago!) use two large commercial websites. PS1 was advertised when for original sale that you could rent out your purchased property and it was built with a reception area (and all phone calls through a central switchboard, monopoly on cleaning etc), the builders kept a number (?50) of properties back for letting themselves and blocks of apartments were sold to various people who were running letting companies. For whatever reason, the multi-unit, true businesses are no longer operating there but there are several people who let their own places when they are not there/until they retire, or residents who have another unit that they let out etc. Fairly low key stuff. The visitors heavily subsidise the pool through sunbed hire (and keep the cafe and supermarket going) so it will be interesting to see what will happen to the community charges.
As regards what is actually happening on PS1 as asked previously, I understand from various sources that inspectors went in asking questions and the community office provided owner details when requested (PS2 apparently refused that request). The complex was written to several weeks ago saying that about 16 owners will be fined (but not apparently including myself) but as of today those letters have not yet been received. I only know about two of the properties that are affected, they are both apartments of different sizes but I do not otherwise know why they were selected.
I have presently changed my adverts to say only accepting lets of 3 months or longer while awaiting events and hopefully a return to rationality. I am pretty annoyed as we have caused a lot of people to come to Tenerife and spend money locally (as we have all done ourselves), employ a local management company and are boosting the economy in very many ways, and I think we are responsible landlords and owners overall.
Personally, I would have no objection to an inspection and registration system - actually that would be welcome to know/prove that we meet adequate standards or could say what star rating we had etc. It would presumably be charged for but that's OK. Income should be declared and taxed either in Tenerife or the UK as most appropriate for personal circumstances. A modest letting tax is OK (excepting the EU rules on double taxation which may apply if declaring the income properly in the UK) but it should be based on net income not gross as is unreasonably the case presently.
Sorry for long post as my first effort. Don't we all live in "interesting times"?!
On the tax front I think you will find that the tax on income has to be paid in Tenerife and declared in the UK under the double taxation treaty, if you are a UK citizen.
You can take off the expenses and not pay gross if you are an EU citizen, last year was the first year this was the case if my memory serves me correctly.
Peterrayner
12-07-2011, 15:01
On the tax front I think you will find that the tax on income has to be paid in Tenerife and declared in the UK under the double taxation treaty, if you are a UK citizen.
You can take off the expenses and not pay gross if you are an EU citizen, last year was the first year this was the case if my memory serves me correctly.
but in order to access these deductions in Tenerife you must first get a confirmation letter form the HMRC stating you a fiscally resident in the UK.
jogger321
13-07-2011, 00:33
I saw this post by a new member, miffed-owner, on the Future thread and feel it should be added here for information. Parque Santiago 1 and possibly 16 owners to be fined:
I would be very interested to join with or provide information for that. My family have owned and let a single property on PS1 since it was first opened, we currently (or rather until a few hours ago!) use two large commercial websites. PS1 was advertised when for original sale that you could rent out your purchased property and it was built with a reception area (and all phone calls through a central switchboard, monopoly on cleaning etc), the builders kept a number (?50) of properties back for letting themselves and blocks of apartments were sold to various people who were running letting companies. For whatever reason, the multi-unit, true businesses are no longer operating there but there are several people who let their own places when they are not there/until they retire, or residents who have another unit that they let out etc. Fairly low key stuff. The visitors heavily subsidise the pool through sunbed hire (and keep the cafe and supermarket going) so it will be interesting to see what will happen to the community charges.
As regards what is actually happening on PS1 as asked previously, I understand from various sources that inspectors went in asking questions and the community office provided owner details when requested (PS2 apparently refused that request). The complex was written to several weeks ago saying that about 16 owners will be fined (but not apparently including myself) but as of today those letters have not yet been received. I only know about two of the properties that are affected, they are both apartments of different sizes but I do not otherwise know why they were selected.
I have presently changed my adverts to say only accepting lets of 3 months or longer while awaiting events and hopefully a return to rationality. I am pretty annoyed as we have caused a lot of people to come to Tenerife and spend money locally (as we have all done ourselves), employ a local management company and are boosting the economy in very many ways, and I think we are responsible landlords and owners overall.
Personally, I would have no objection to an inspection and registration system - actually that would be welcome to know/prove that we meet adequate standards or could say what star rating we had etc. It would presumably be charged for but that's OK. Income should be declared and taxed either in Tenerife or the UK as most appropriate for personal circumstances. A modest letting tax is OK (excepting the EU rules on double taxation which may apply if declaring the income properly in the UK) but it should be based on net income not gross as is unreasonably the case presently.
Sorry for long post as my first effort. Don't we all live in "interesting times"?!
Quote Originally Posted by Peterrayner View Post
I dont have any interest in PS1 but on our own community forum it has been reported that inspectors have visited PS1 recently and taken info on owners from the President ans the inspectors are also reported has having "knocked on doors" to question guests about renting.
Could well be a few bargains coming up for grabs on PS1 if this is true.
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27-06-2011 21:13 #562
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Gosh these inspectors are going to have to be very cunning detectives to determine whether PS1 is being used for holiday lets!
www.ownersdirect.co.uk/parque-santiago-1.htm
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28-06-2011 16:15 #563
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Quote Originally Posted by jogger321 View Post
Gosh these inspectors are going to have to be very cunning detectives to determine whether PS1 is being used for holiday lets!
www.ownersdirect.co.uk/parque-santiago-1.htm
I doubt it is as simple as some might think....
Its an oldish complex and therefore likley to predate the 1995 Law (a la Royal Palm) so even if it is designated "residential" it may have an existing licence and a letting agent on site.
The visit might be to regularise things... get non registered letting owners to register and to sort the 50% + 1 issue.
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28-06-2011 17:23 #564
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Quote Originally Posted by Peterrayner View Post
I doubt it is as simple as some might think....
Its an oldish complex and therefore likley to predate the 1995 Law (a la Royal Palm) so even if it is designated "residential" it may have an existing licence and a letting agent on site.
The visit might be to regularise things... get non registered letting owners to register and to sort the 50% + 1 issue.
Definately Residential Peter and has never had a touristic licence. I came within a whisker of signing on the dotted line of buying an apartment there about four years ago until my British solicitor inspected the title deeds for me and pointed out to me that it was a residential apartment complex and there not legal to do the holiday lettings I needed to do in order to supplement the mortgage repayments.
Peterrayner
13-07-2011, 07:36
Hi Jogger
Yes the miffed-owner states 16 owners have been selected but as of the date of his first post they havent been received.
It could still be that there are some legal technicalities to sort out regarding the designation of this complex.
Peter ... you have posted elsewhere about phone calls enquiring about ownership - can you give us some more idea about this :)
Peterrayner
13-07-2011, 08:08
Peter ... you have posted elsewhere about phone calls enquiring about ownership - can you give us some more idea about this :)
Just that really..strange persistent calls from an English speaking female asking for details of ownership but refusing to give any details about herself or why she wants this info. Calls from a 0034 922 local number
Have just had a look through "Owners Direct" and there are many properties advertised with owners details on - makes it is easy for the tourist authorities. Would it be a good idea for the President of the Dinastia complex to notify the owners of the current situation via a newsletter?
Angusjim
14-07-2011, 16:41
Have just had a look through "Owners Direct" and there are many properties advertised with owners details on - makes it is easy for the tourist authorities. Would it be a good idea for the President of the Dinastia complex to notify the owners of the current situation via a newsletter?
Think its probably too late for any warnings the information has already been gathered
It's not about upping your game it's about one type of accommodation having to follow the tourist laws and the private rental sector not even bothering to read them.
If you live on a complex where you pay community fees but most others dont, then what choice do you have, you cant sell as the complex is falling apart. ie, no water in the pool plaster falling off the walls... you end up in negative equity, long term rentals are so cheap now they dont cover the mortgage, and giving your apartment back has its own very bad set of consequenses.
At least with holiday lets you are doing something positive to cover your mortgage keep your home and keep the banks happy!!
If you live on a complex where you pay community fees but most others dont, then what choice do you have, you cant sell as the complex is falling apart. ie, no water in the pool plaster falling off the walls... you end up in negative equity, long term rentals are so cheap now they dont cover the mortgage, and giving your apartment back has its own very bad set of consequenses.
At least with holiday lets you are doing something positive to cover your mortgage keep your home and keep the banks happy!!
Your complex sounds like a lovely place to arrive on holiday! No water in the pool,complex falling apart,plaster falling off the walls.This is why the Canarian Goverment wants to stop illegal rentals.
junglejim
14-07-2011, 17:48
Your complex sounds like a lovely place to arrive on holiday! No water in the pool,complex falling apart,plaster falling off the walls.This is why the Canarian Goverment wants to stop illegal rentals.
I think you've missed the point on this if you read the other thread she has written .
Your complex sounds like a lovely place to arrive on holiday! No water in the pool,complex falling apart,plaster falling off the walls.This is why the Canarian Goverment wants to stop illegal rentals.
Zoink! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Santiago
14-07-2011, 22:03
One item which seems to have escaped notice is that the current investigation by the seventeen inspectors is to last one year. What happens at the end of the year? Does the investigation finish? Is it all systems go - and revert to previous situations? Does anyone know?
It is obvious that many owners have purchased property on residential complexes without being given the true facts about commercial letting, possibly by sales agents eager for commission and stating it`s all ok to rent but forgetting to mention that only long term (minimum 3 months under a Spanish contract) letting is legal in these circumstances. Property values are normally lower on a residential complex than on a complex with a touristic licence and unfortunately this has put people, innocently, in the situation we have today. Should owners have been more aware of the regulations they may have considered only purchasing on a complex registered for tourism should they have wished to gain income from commercial letting (weekly priced accommodation). When properties were being sold, in the last few years, the authorities were not active as they are today and owners have been put under the impression that it's ok as nothing ever happens! Now it is happening and those that were not given advice correctly are in a position that could have been avoided. President's of complexes have been aware of this law (if advised correctly by their administrators) for many years but, in most cases, have failed to notify the owners of the legallities. Any owner who has had a notice of prosecution should take, good, Spanish legal advice regarding information not given to them regarding exploitation of apartments on their complex of which the president had knowledge of the activities taking place. Basically it is the responsibility of a president to notify any owner of an activity which is illegal and request them to cease the activity with immediate effect, therefore if the president was aware of the letting on a complex he/she should have notified you in writing - if not, go and see a good abogado (lawyer). Get a copy of "The Law Of Horizontal Property" it is available in English.
Added after 6 minutes:
One item which seems to have escaped notice is that the current investigation by the seventeen inspectors is to last one year. What happens at the end of the year? Does the investigation finish? Is it all systems go - and revert to previous situations? Does anyone know?
If they get results they may continue - who knows?
I'd hazard a guess and say for sure investigations will be ongoing!Especially whilst the property market is done for!!Where else will revenue be recovered to pay the wages of 17+ extra staff plus the loss in a multitude of Spanish conveyance tax's??
17 inspectors x 1250 euros x 12 months = 255,000 euros + social security and what not let's say 360000 euros is the cost of the inspections - that means they need 20 fines at 18000 euros across the entire 7 islands to break even - so 3 per island. What's the rumored amount on dinastia????
17 inspectors x 1250 euros x 12 months = 255,000 euros + social security and what not let's say 360000 euros is the cost of the inspections - that means they need 20 fines at 18000 euros across the entire 7 islands to break even - so 3 per island. What's the rumored amount on dinastia????
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here because you added a confused smiley :)?Are you implying that your quoted figure of €360,000 is enough to cover the loss of government revenue from property sales over one year?
The confused smiley must have cone from adding several question marks.
Obviously the 360 wouldn't cover a large loss in property transactions I was trying to say that the inspection taskforces waged were easily covered by fines .
So the investigations are happening as are the fines. All the doubters have been proved wrong and the people in the know proved right.
I wonder if it's time to move the debate on (a new thread ?) to see exactly how things can be made better for one and all.
Nobody wants to see the tourist trade hit, nobody wants to see people who have bought on residential sites upset, but at the same time, it would not be nice to see people unable to afford their mortgages because they can not raise money by renting out (whether they knew or not!).
Is there a solution or even a happy medium that could be struck, without the cries of ''they should have known better? '' ''it's their own fault'' and ''NIMBY''? (These posts really have been exhausted - and YES I know It's The Law!!)
Because, whatever some might say, if renting out on residential complexes is completely outlawed, it IS going to hurt the tourist industry (I know I am one who has used these complexes and the standard of decor, white goods and in-apartment facilities IS better than the touristic complexes).
I love Tenerife, and I love it most when it is busy, thriving and buzzing with life!
Can we not all work together to make sure it stays that way?
Whoah, hang on a minute! Look what happens when I go away for a while. This needs someone to put a bit of realism back into the situation.
As is the norm on here, massive assumptions going on, especially "on the other side".
So because a handful of owners have allegedly been fined, that's it then. The authorities are out to stop all rentals in residential properties in the Canaries? The other thousands and thousands of owners will be fined too? What evidence is there that they intend to make the fining of owners widespread? None. What proof is there that anyone has actually had to pay the full fine or even part of it?
Do the authorities have a history of flag flying - fining a few people and then disappearing for a few years? Yes. Could they be doing the same again? Yes, it's highly possible. Unless you are a Tenerife forum member, and then of course the answer is no.
As the old forum has gone, I shall repeat what I posted some weeks ago.
The law is being changed to allow holiday lettings on residential properties. To do so, will require a licence. In order to obtain a licence, certain criteria will require to be met. As with all laws in Spain, it will take some time to pass the new law. IN THE MEANTIME, THERE MAY WELL BE SOME FINES ISSUED.
Fining a tiny handful of owners isn't even a pin prick on the surface of the existing tens of thousands of illegal beds. For those who believe that this is huge "breaking news" and that "this is also the most insane move by the tourism authorities in Tenerife for decades. They will kill the island", well it would appear the local and national media don't agree with you. Not a mention anywhere on any Canarian news websites since last week. They appear to think learning the art of sand carpets is more important than the collapse of the economy of the Canaries. Also with tens of thousands of holidays about to be cancelled across the islands and money lost in many cases, you would also have thought the British press would have picked up on the bombshell news last week? Very strange.
Ah, but I hear you say, as they've started fining people, this will scare other owners into stopping holiday letting. Hardly, when most owners have never even heard of any letting laws. Those that do hear of a few owners being fined will carry on in the knowledge that the chances of a fine are currently miniscule. What's the alternative for most owners - lock the door and hand the keys over to the bank with the consequent huge financial loss, far greater than a fine? Which would you choose to do? Many owners will have earned enough in the last 8 months of holiday letting to pay any fine after appeal. Stopping 8 months ago when this was announced would have been financial stupidity.
Again I repeat myself in saying that this a Canarian law. On other islands there is no alternative self catering accommodation. Anyone who thinks the authorities are going to cause a further dramatic slump in the small fragile recovery in the building industry, create ghost towns in certain areas in the islands particularly Lanzarote and Fuerteventura, close Spanish businesses, and cut off Ryanair's, Monarch's, Jet2's etc. main market at a time when they are investing heavily in the area, is just plain bonkers. In fact, latest figures show tourist number to the Canaries rising markedly. Tourism chief and first vice president of the Tenerife Cabildo, Carlos Alonso, is delighted with the increases following extensive promotions, and said "Tourism of Tenerife would continue to work to retain these extra visitors and encourage more." Whilst Government spokesman Ricardo Fernandez de la Puente says the prospects for the remainder of the summer are "very positive".
They are going to look a couple of pr*tts if they then have to explain, after saying these things, why the figures have suddenly dropped alarmingly after shutting down thousands of accommodation beds!
In the meantime, the number of properties advertised on the 3 main rental websites has risen by another 36 properties in the last few weeks, an overall increase of 524 since February of this year. Dozens of new residential properties on the rental market added to other websites too. The facts are that new properties are being added to the rental market far quicker than they are being taken off.
Wake me up when that situation is dramatically reversed.
The clampdown continues.
Whoah, hang on a minute! Look what happens when I go away for a while. This needs someone to put a bit of realism back into the situation.
As is the norm on here, massive assumptions going on, especially "on the other side".
So because a handful of owners have allegedly been fined, that's it then. The authorities are out to stop all rentals in residential properties in the Canaries? The other thousands and thousands of owners will be fined too? What evidence is there that they intend to make the fining of owners widespread? None. What proof is there that anyone has actually had to pay the full fine or even part of it?
Do the authorities have a history of flag flying - fining a few people and then disappearing for a few years? Yes. Could they be doing the same again? Yes, it's highly possible. Unless you are a Tenerife forum member, and then of course the answer is no.
As the old forum has gone, I shall repeat what I posted some weeks ago.
The law is being changed to allow holiday lettings on residential properties. To do so, will require a licence. In order to obtain a licence, certain criteria will require to be met. As with all laws in Spain, it will take some time to pass the new law. IN THE MEANTIME, THERE MAY WELL BE SOME FINES ISSUED.
Fining a tiny handful of owners isn't even a pin prick on the surface of the existing tens of thousands of illegal beds. For those who believe that this is huge "breaking news" and that "this is also the most insane move by the tourism authorities in Tenerife for decades. They will kill the island", well it would appear the local and national media don't agree with you. Not a mention anywhere on any Canarian news websites since last week. They appear to think learning the art of sand carpets is more important than the collapse of the economy of the Canaries. Also with tens of thousands of holidays about to be cancelled across the islands and money lost in many cases, you would also have thought the British press would have picked up on the bombshell news last week? Very strange.
Ah, but I hear you say, as they've started fining people, this will scare other owners into stopping holiday letting. Hardly, when most owners have never even heard of any letting laws. Those that do hear of a few owners being fined will carry on in the knowledge that the chances of a fine are currently miniscule. What's the alternative for most owners - lock the door and hand the keys over to the bank with the consequent huge financial loss, far greater than a fine? Which would you choose to do? Many owners will have earned enough in the last 8 months of holiday letting to pay any fine after appeal. Stopping 8 months ago when this was announced would have been financial stupidity.
Again I repeat myself in saying that this a Canarian law. On other islands there is no alternative self catering accommodation. Anyone who thinks the authorities are going to cause a further dramatic slump in the small fragile recovery in the building industry, create ghost towns in certain areas in the islands particularly Lanzarote and Fuerteventura, close Spanish businesses, and cut off Ryanair's, Monarch's, Jet2's etc. main market at a time when they are investing heavily in the area, is just plain bonkers. In fact, latest figures show tourist number to the Canaries rising markedly. Tourism chief and first vice president of the Tenerife Cabildo, Carlos Alonso, is delighted with the increases following extensive promotions, and said "Tourism of Tenerife would continue to work to retain these extra visitors and encourage more." Whilst Government spokesman Ricardo Fernandez de la Puente says the prospects for the remainder of the summer are "very positive".
They are going to look a couple of pr*tts if they then have to explain, after saying these things, why the figures have suddenly dropped alarmingly after shutting down thousands of accommodation beds!
In the meantime, the number of properties advertised on the 3 main rental websites has risen by another 36 properties in the last few weeks, an overall increase of 524 since February of this year. Dozens of new residential properties on the rental market added to other websites too. The facts are that new properties are being added to the rental market far quicker than they are being taken off.
Wake me up when that situation is dramatically reversed.
The clampdown continues.
Welcome back Hughsyb
To quote you, where is your evidence to back up the claims you are making about what will be happening ??
When people were stating facts that reports of fines being imposed you were questioning their reliability because they weren't supplying evidence, so I repeat my question, where is your evidence to back up your claims ??
I'd love to know where you get this "fact" about the imminent changes to the law that no one seems to know about except you. Please inform.
Added after 2 minutes:
Is this whats going to be happening;
Hughsyb: no one will get fined!
People receive fines
Hughsyb : no one on residential complexes will get fined though
People on residential complexes receive fines
Hughsyb: It's not widespread!
Becomes widespread
Hughsyb: No ones paid them yet.......
Welcome back Hughsyb
To quote you, where is your evidence to back up the claims you are making about what will be happening ??
When people were stating facts that reports of fines being imposed you were questioning their reliability because they weren't supplying evidence, so I repeat my question, where is your evidence to back up your claims ??
Heard it down the pub! :)
Heard it down the pub! :)
Not really surprised by your answer, I would actually be more surprised if you had a real source of the info.
Margaretta
15-07-2011, 18:21
Can I just try and clarify in a nutshell?
It is illegal to let residential property unless you have formal recognition and pay your letting tax?
or
Letting is not allowed under any circumstances on residential property?
Family and friends who genuinely stay rent-free in your apartment/ duplex /villa should have verification from you that this is the case?
!7 inspectors have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and will slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
The inspectors will investigate via the surgestion or President and knock on doors?
Pleeeeeeese may the whole thing finally be simplified?
Thank you.:confused::confused::confused::confused:
The second part of what you said is more or less spot on
The second part of what you said is more or less spot on
Well, apart from the bit that says..............
!7 inspectors have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and will slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
Which should read................
!7 inspectors may have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and MAY slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
You may also be knocked down crossing the road tomorrow.
Well, apart from the bit that says..............
!7 inspectors have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and will slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
Which should read................
!7 inspectors may have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and MAY slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
You may also be knocked down crossing the road tomorrow.
Think it's time you extracted your head from up your back passage and faced reality.
The 17 inspectors and trhe 18000 euros fines are real, not figments of everyone else's imagination.
If you can't get that through your head and engaged into your brain you're in a bad state, or permanently drunk from earwigging conversations in the pub.
Just to put Margaretta at ease, any genuine family and friends who are only paying a bit towards your expenses (leckie and the like) rather than a full rental, should not get you into any trouble :)
BobMac.... status.....friendly. Don't think so by this post.
Not sure you see how this works here.
Long (& short) history of fines issued, but never paid. e.g. Sunspot being fined €56,000 not so long ago. No further comment except she said.......you know how it works here? Now getting help from the 'Tourist Police' to help sort out the legalisation of the business and properties.
Various denuncias issued by holders of exploitation holders in the area acted on, fines issued or investigations made. Where fines have been issued, either ignored or reduced to miniscule levels. Where investigations made, no further action taken (even after web-site content has been in evidence. 'You have been warned, etc').
So, in my opinion too, the bad state only exists on this thread, by people like you, dictating their thoughts to people who are still awaiting evidence of fines being paid/ repossessions having to be made etc.
In the meantime, chill out, smell the coffee, wait and see what happens, and don't accuse others of having a brain in a bad state, just because they don't assume the same as you
Various denuncias issued by holders of exploitation holders in the area acted on, fines issued or investigations made. Where fines have been issued, either ignored or reduced to miniscule levels. Where investigations made, no further action taken (even after web-site content has been in evidence. 'You have been warned, etc').
So, in my opinion too, the bad state only exists on this thread, by people like you, dictating their thoughts to people who are still awaiting evidence of fines being paid/ repossessions having to be made etc.
I would think the individual owners on Dinistia who have received fines (7 notifications now known to have being issued) might differ.
Long (& short) history of fines issued, but never paid. e.g. Sunspot being fined €56,000 not so long ago. No further comment except she said.......you know how it works here? Now getting help from the 'Tourist Police' to help sort out the legalisation of the business and properties.
The fine was in fact 66.000 after the first appeal we were notified that it has been reduced to 39.000,we now appeal again,that is what my "you know how it works here" comment means
I would think the individual owners on Dinistia who have received fines (7 notifications now known to have being issued) might differ.
The appeal period for some of those fines must nearly be up. Does anyone know if any owners intend to appeal?
The appeal period for some of those fines must nearly be up. Does anyone know if any owners intend to appeal?
Yes, I understand an appeal is going in for most of them :)
I am not making any assumptions about this matter other than making a response based on the fact that the person it was aimed at seems to be totally unable to accept the reality of the situation.
Well, apart from the bit that says..............
!7 inspectors have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and will slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
Which should read................
!7 inspectors may have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and MAY slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
You may also be knocked down crossing the road tomorrow.
Which part of the inspectors being appointed and the fines being issued does he not understand - there is no argument about it, they have been appointed and fines have been issued.
BobMac.... status.....friendly. Don't think so by this post.
Not sure you see how this works here.
Long (& short) history of fines issued, but never paid. e.g. Sunspot being fined €56,000 not so long ago. No further comment except she said.......you know how it works here? Now getting help from the 'Tourist Police' to help sort out the legalisation of the business and properties.
Various denuncias issued by holders of exploitation holders in the area acted on, fines issued or investigations made. Where fines have been issued, either ignored or reduced to miniscule levels. Where investigations made, no further action taken (even after web-site content has been in evidence. 'You have been warned, etc').
So, in my opinion too, the bad state only exists on this thread, by people like you, dictating their thoughts to people who are still awaiting evidence of fines being paid/ repossessions having to be made etc.
In the meantime, chill out, smell the coffee, wait and see what happens, and don't accuse others of having a brain in a bad state, just because they don't assume the same as you
I am aware that the people who have had fines issued can appeal against them - that doesn't however detract from the fact that the fines have actually been issued which the person I was answering the comment of still doesn't seem to accept that he has got it wrong.
I would think the individual owners on Dinistia who have received fines (7 notifications now known to have being issued) might differ.
I suggest you reread my post. Nowhere have I suggested that these fines have not been issued. What I am challenging is the assumption that this is the start of tens of thousands of similar fines throughout the Canaries, which is being made by most on here and elsewhere.
As for there being 17 new inspectors, how can you be so sure there are 17. Have you counted them?
Red Devil
15-07-2011, 21:08
Think it's time you extracted your head from up your back passage and faced reality.
The 17 inspectors and trhe 18000 euros fines are real, not figments of everyone else's imagination.
If you can't get that through your head and engaged into your brain you're in a bad state, or permanently drunk from earwigging conversations in the pub.
Bit of an unnecessary response to someone who actually has a different opinion to yours?
Do you actually own any property in the Canaries (as Hughsyb does) or are your opinions based upon what you have read on this forum?
& people that have been denounced & fined, are still letting illegally on tourist complexes 2 years later, and still haven't paid the fine.
For example, it seems that the main experts on here are from Paloma Beach, i.e. Loaded & Doreen.
Despite the best efforts of the management company with the exploitation licence and the Judiciory and the Tourist police, can we have an estimation of how many other 'people' are illegally letting and cleaning apartments on this Complex? My guess, at least 3. This, under very close scrutiny.
Other complexes will have similar situations. The number of management companies on Cristian Sur is almost as many as apartments.
So, chill out, smell the coffee and wait and see what happens etc. Lots more will or, at last, not happen about illegal letting.
We are all entitled to our opinions without being abused.
junglejim
15-07-2011, 21:36
I suggest you reread my post. Nowhere have I suggested that these fines have not been issued. What I am challenging is the assumption that this is the start of tens of thousands of similar fines throughout the Canaries, which is being made by most on here and elsewhere.
As for there being 17 new inspectors, how can you be so sure there are 17. Have you counted them?
Whilst I don´t wish to get involved in your internecine war , the original press comment mentions appointment of 17 new inspectors.
El plan, recogido en el conocido como "Pacto de Fuerteventura", definirá cuántos establecimientos turísticos ilegales o no autorizados están operando en Canarias. Para ello, 17 inspectores van a trabajar durante un año en esta iniciativa.
source in link
http://www.eldia.es/2010-12-15/canarias/canarias15.htm
Well, apart from the bit that says..............
!7 inspectors have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and will slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
Which should read................
!7 inspectors may have been appointed to check each residential complex for lettings and MAY slap on a fine for 18,000 euros to the owner if someone other than the owner is in the apartment?
You may also be knocked down crossing the road tomorrow.
BobMac.... status.....friendly. Don't think so by this post.
Not sure you see how this works here.
Long (& short) history of fines issued, but never paid. e.g. Sunspot being fined €56,000 not so long ago. No further comment except she said.......you know how it works here? Now getting help from the 'Tourist Police' to help sort out the legalisation of the business and properties.
Various denuncias issued by holders of exploitation holders in the area acted on, fines issued or investigations made. Where fines have been issued, either ignored or reduced to miniscule levels. Where investigations made, no further action taken (even after web-site content has been in evidence. 'You have been warned, etc').
So, in my opinion too, the bad state only exists on this thread, by people like you, dictating their thoughts to people who are still awaiting evidence of fines being paid/ repossessions having to be made etc.
In the meantime, chill out, smell the coffee, wait and see what happens, and don't accuse others of having a brain in a bad state, just because they don't assume the same as you
I would think the individual owners on Dinistia who have received fines (7 notifications now known to have being issued) might differ.
Bit of an unnecessary response to someone who actually has a different opinion to yours?
Do you actually own any property in the Canaries (as Hughsyb does) or are your opinions based upon what you have read on this forum?
I don't own a property but I have several friends who do and my opinions are based on the information they are being given.
I don't own a property but I have several friends who do and my opinions are based on the information they are being given.
Do you want to buy a nice one on a touristic complex without any of these problems? :)
As always we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It wouldn't surprise me if the fines that have been issues "expire" after a certain amount of time and nothing happens !!!
Whilst I don´t wish to get involved in your internecine war , the original press comment mentions appointment of 17 new inspectors.
El plan, recogido en el conocido como "Pacto de Fuerteventura", definirá cuántos establecimientos turísticos ilegales o no autorizados están operando en Canarias. Para ello, 17 inspectores van a trabajar durante un año en esta iniciativa.
source in link
http://www.eldia.es/2010-12-15/canarias/canarias15.htm
Yes I'm well aware the original article says that. I asked how anyone knows there are actually 17 new inspectors? If you believe there are 17 new inspectors, please tell us exactly what 17 people, plus the existing inspectors, have been doing for 7 months.
junglejim
16-07-2011, 06:50
Yes I'm well aware the original article says that. I asked how anyone knows there are actually 17 new inspectors? If you believe there are 17 new inspectors, please tell us exactly what 17 people, plus the existing inspectors, have been doing for 7 months.
As stated on previous forum , collecting information , analysing and then deciding on a plan - which would appear to be issuing fines to residential properties for illegal advertising and renting.
This is from a Fuerteventura site
This is a translation of an article produced bt Euroopa Press on 14th December under the title.
El Gobierno de Canarias inspeccionará en 2011 la planta alojativa turística para detectar las camas ilegales.
In 2011 the Canarian Government will inspect tourist accommodation to detect illegal beds.
The Canarian Government has decided that in 2011, as a result of the PSC-PSOE (a political alliance) saying that there are 400 000 illegal beds as well as 650 000 that are clandestine, it will put in motion an inspection of all the tourist accommodation on the islands for the purpose of evaluating the beds that, though offered as tourism based, are illegal.
This was announced in a full meeting of the Chamber by the Minister for the Economy and Taxes, Jorge Rodríguez. in a presentation brought by the socialist deputy Olivia Estévez about the administrative situation with respect to the tourist accommodation in the Canary islands.
In his speech he explained that this plan of action had been planned by the inspection service of the department of tourism of the Canarian Government, to find the establishments with guest facilities as well as to find out how many are being used for tourism purposes without informing the authorities before starting to do so, or without authorisation.
This plan, included in "El Pacto de Fuerteventura" will come to define how many such establishments are operating in the Canary Islands. With this aim 17 inspectors will work in the updating of the records of the tourist accommodation on the islands.
Once this program has been carried out and the corresponding report has been drawn up to outline the size of the problem they will be able to take the measures they deem advisable to put right this problem.
In the meantime the minister explained that the number of authorized tourist beds in the Canary islands is 430 021 in 3 033 establishments, of which 645 are hotels and 2 388 are other accomodation other than hotels.
By Island, in lanzarote there are 315 establishments and 71 517 places (53 hotels and 262 others); Fuerventura has 205 establishments and 65 271 places (80 hotels and 125 others); Gran Canaria has 855 establishments with 140 340 places (151 hotels and 704 others).
Laziness and Opportunism
Meanwhile, the socialist deputy underlined the importance of tourism to the Canaries, as much for the ecomomy as for employment, and rejected any claim that she might be acting in a lazy and politically oportunistic way.
It then goes on about political posturing, so I can't be bothered to translate it.
_________________
So there are 450000 legal and 400000 illegal plus 650000 clandestine ..... You can see why they became concerned
I don't own a property but I have several friends who do and my opinions are based on the information they are being given.
Who is giving this information? What is the information? As far as I am aware, there is very little information available but it is mostly speculation & rumour on this, and another forum.
londoner
16-07-2011, 11:01
As always we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It wouldn't surprise me if the fines that have been issues "expire" after a certain amount of time and nothing happens !!!
we take many things into consideration and each situation is decided on merit
tax evasion is a strong incentive for us to procede enforcing large fines and following them threw.
but changes will have to be made, the difference between tourist and residential complexes must be upheld.
So there are 450000 legal and 400000 illegal plus 650000 clandestine ..... You can see why they became concerned
tip of the iceberg loaded, there are complexes where people think no holiday lettings go on, last week 2 flats in grasiosa receiced letters.
As stated on previous forum , collecting information , analysing and then deciding on a plan - which would appear to be issuing fines to residential properties for illegal advertising and renting.
I see. So as the approx 20 inspectors have had time to collect and analyse enough information to reach to the top of Teide and Timanfaya, I assume they are still deciding on a plan. :rolleyes:
junglejim
16-07-2011, 11:25
I see. So as the approx 20 inspectors have had time to collect and analyse enough information to reach to the top of Teide and Timanfaya, I assume they are still deciding on a plan. :rolleyes:
Yep! It is Tenerife after all !!
Incidently, I'm just back after a memorable trip sailing up the Amazon. What an experience!
The only thing was the total absence of any crocodiles. I asked my tour guide what had happened to them, and he said "oh, at this time of year all the families go to visit their grandparents in their residential homes."
Can we go and have a look I said?
"Well we can" my guide said, "but it's a long sail to Tenerife".
As far as I am aware.....
As far as you're aware or as far as you're willing to accept
Santiago
16-07-2011, 12:42
Can it be assumed that if apartments, etc., (residential or touristic), were sold with the information that they could be let for holiday accommodation, then the person, (or persons), who sold this accommodation has lied to the prospective owner. Thus, could the owner not sue for compensation from these persons should it prove that they lied.
Can it be assumed that if apartments, etc., (residential or touristic), were sold with the information that they could be let for holiday accommodation, then the person, (or persons), who sold this accommodation has lied to the prospective owner. Thus, could the owner not sue for compensation from these persons should it prove that they lied.
I cant see how!The Canaries hasn't yet got like the US.Besides,a buyer should have a lawyer that should pick up on all that.
cainaries
16-07-2011, 13:01
I posted on the old Forum about one local council here on La Palma which was 'legalising' rustic tourist rental houses. In the fortnightly German/Spanish La Palma paper called D'Ocasion, their edition of 17th June has an article on page 5 entitled 'legalizacion en rustica' which indicates that the council of Los Llanos is also working through the illegal, 'rustica' tourist rental houses and legalising these in accordance with certain standards. I just wonder if the situation and the inspectors working in Tenerife are working to a slightly different plan (or non-plan) to the other islands and this might even explain why hughsyb and some others on this thread seem to be at cross purposes occasionally.
http://www.d-ocasion.net/10_11_es.pdf
@ Loaded
As far as I am aware. Do you think I am in denial about something, If so, what and show me the facts.
@ Loaded
As far as I am aware. Do you think I am in denial about something, If so, what and show me the facts.
Just read the newspaper articles and this thread
As always we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It wouldn't surprise me if the fines that have been issues "expire" after a certain amount of time and nothing happens !!!
So, is this something I should take seriously?
I understand that you think a fine will arrive with a sell by date. Please pay this fine by **/**/20**.
If you cannot, please dispose of it in the bin and we will forget all about it?
And you suggest I read this thread and believe!!!!!! Mr Loaded, please behave.
Added after 2 minutes:
Just read the newspaper articles and this thread
I read a newspaper article once 'Freddie Starr ate my hamster'. It didn't make it real though.
The Daily Mail 5/6/2011
Thousands of Brits face huge fines over illegal renting On Sunshine Island.
Many British apartment owners who were duped into buying an apartment they were told would be OK to rent out forever, face heartbreak, huge fines and the potential loss of these apartments.
The Spanish Authorities have decided to act on an old law............etc.
Maybe I will believe when I see something like this.
junglejim
16-07-2011, 17:24
So, is this something I should take seriously?
I understand that you think a fine will arrive with a sell by date. Please pay this fine by **/**/20**.
If you cannot, please dispose of it in the bin and we will forget all about it?
And you suggest I read this thread and believe!!!!!! Mr Loaded, please behave.
Added after 2 minutes:
I read a newspaper article once 'Freddie Starr ate my hamster'. It didn't make it real though.
How do you know ?- after all it was in the Sun !!
http://sunheadlines.blogspot.com/2008/11/classics-freddie-starr-ate-my-hamster.html
So something like the el dia article from 6 months ago? Or does it need to be the sun so you can digest the info easier?
So something like the el dia article from 6 months ago? Or does it need to be the sun so you can digest the info easier?
Round and round we go.
Of course I have read this article, I have read this thread, I know the fines have been issued, I know Sunspots fine has been reduced on appeal, etc etc, but from this thread, as far as I am aware, the fines might expire, in the opinion of a well respected poster on this thread. You picked out 6 words that suited you, from 1 post, and completely ignored my request about should I take your post seriously about the fine expiry. Please Mr Loaded, behave.
A_R_Sole
16-07-2011, 17:50
POSTED BY "LONDONER" TODAY AT 11:01
Originally Posted by Loaded
As always we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It wouldn't surprise me if the fines that have been issues "expire" after a certain amount of time and nothing happens !!!
we take many things into consideration and each situation is decided on merit
tax evasion is a strong incentive for us to procede enforcing large fines and following them threw.
but changes will have to be made, the difference between tourist and residential complexes must be upheld.
Originally Posted by Loaded
So there are 450000 legal and 400000 illegal plus 650000 clandestine ..... You can see why they became concerned
tip of the iceberg loaded, there are complexes where people think no holiday lettings go on, last week 2 flats in grasiosa receiced letters.
________________________________________________
Londoner, you speak it would seem as a person holding a position of official authority in this matter, that being the case, could you enlighten forum members further as to any other previous official action not already reported on the forum (as you have in the case of Grasiosa), plus from your official position how do you see matters progressing short and long term.
Round and round we go.
Of course I have read this article, I have read this thread, I know the fines have been issued, I know Sunspots fine has been reduced on appeal, etc etc, but from this thread, as far as I am aware, the fines might expire, in the opinion of a well respected poster on this thread. You picked out 6 words that suited you, from 1 post, and completely ignored my request about should I take your post seriously about the fine expiry. Please Mr Loaded, behave.
I believe I am considered a reasonably respected poster on this thread, and have to say, expecting fines to disappear or expire is just the same as believing the problem does not exist :)
I equally am not expecting to see huge headlines about all this - of course, it is of vast importance to many here in the South, who have invested in buy-to-lets in Residential Complexes, but I do not see how editors of the Mail would think it would enthrall or shock their readers.
Could someone please try and get their numbers right according to some figures on here it would appear that there are i.5 million beds or appartments available plus I don't know how many? hotel rooms
Tenerife has what 10/14 million tourists somebodies figures don't add up
Sorry to disagree Doreen. I would expect this to be big news in the UK newspapers.
This will affect not only the owners, but also the renters who have paid deposits who may not get them back.
When this happens, it should make local papers (Both English, and more importantly, the Major Spanish Daily's).
I do not understand why you think this will not be newsworthy in the UK, but agree to disagree.
I agree that it's newsworthy I'm just surprised it hasn't already been picked up on
I agree that it's newsworthy I'm just surprised it hasn't already been picked up on
Because, as far as I am aware, nothing newsworthy has happened, YET
Because, as far as I am aware, nothing newsworthy has happened, YET
Owners receiving fines is not newsworthy?
It is obvious that many owners have purchased property on residential complexes without being given the true facts about commercial letting, possibly by sales agents eager for commission and stating it`s all ok to rent but forgetting to mention that only long term (minimum 3 months under a Spanish contract) letting is legal in these circumstances. Property values are normally lower on a residential complex than on a complex with a touristic licence and unfortunately this has put people, innocently, in the situation we have today. Should owners have been more aware of the regulations they may have considered only purchasing on a complex registered for tourism should they have wished to gain income from commercial letting (weekly priced accommodation). When properties were being sold, in the last few years, the authorities were not active as they are today and owners have been put under the impression that it's ok as nothing ever happens! Now it is happening and those that were not given advice correctly are in a position that could have been avoided. President's of complexes have been aware of this law (if advised correctly by their administrators) for many years but, in most cases, have failed to notify the owners of the legallities. Any owner who has had a notice of prosecution should take, good, Spanish legal advice regarding information not given to them regarding exploitation of apartments on their complex of which the president had knowledge of the activities taking place. Basically it is the responsibility of a president to notify any owner of an activity which is illegal and request them to cease the activity with immediate effect, therefore if the president was aware of the letting on a complex he/she should have notified you in writing - if not, go and see a good abogado (lawyer). Get a copy of "The Law Of Horizontal Property" it is available in English.
Added after 6 minutes:
If they get results they may continue - who knows?
I admit to having rented out on a residential complex for some time .... having been informed by Vallehermosa (the developers) that private holiday lets would be fine. That "residential" just referred to the fact that holiday companies such as Thomsons/Airtours etc would not be able to use the complex!!! On discovering that this was NOT the case, I ceased advertising my apartment and put it on the market. I have contacted several estate agents who are all advertising the apartment while advising prospective buyers that they will be buying an apartment with "excellent holiday rental prospects". !!!!!!!!!!!! The cycle will just continue ....
Sorry to disagree Doreen. I would expect this to be big news in the UK newspapers.
This will affect not only the owners, but also the renters who have paid deposits who may not get them back.
When this happens, it should make local papers (Both English, and more importantly, the Major Spanish Daily's).
I do not understand why you think this will not be newsworthy in the UK, but agree to disagree.
Even you think it's newsworthy 2 posts back.
I have to confess I haven't read all of this huge thread, but does this mean we may not be able to rent a holiday apartment on El Mirador in the future?
Would we be taking a huge risk booking one before we know the outcome of these "illegal lettings"?
I have to confess I haven't read all of this huge thread, but does this mean we may not be able to rent a holiday apartment on El Mirador in the future?
Would we be taking a huge risk booking one before we know the outcome of these "illegal lettings"?
It is likely that El Mirador will have some owners being fined - they were inspected, i understand, about a month later than Dinistia. But if you already have contacts there, then you should still be able to find a let without having to search the internet holiday rental sites, which seems to be what the Authorities are targeting.
It would be a good idea to ask your prospective landlord where they stand on all this - some friends, after talking to me at Easter relayed my comments to an owner on El Mirador, who said it was complete news/shock to them :(
We really do not know how things will pan out yet, and how the appeals will go ... so I would suggest not making very far ahead bookings i.e Christmas two years away :)
Can we add a poll to this thread? I would like to gauge the opinion of everyone taking part in this thread, especially those with strong beliefs either way on what they would or would not do right now given the information currently available. he questions I would like in the poll are as follows and you should be able to choose two answers, one as a hypothetical or real private owner and one as a hypothetical or real agent letting out holiday apartments on a residential complex:
A. If I owned an apartment on a residential complex and wished to let it out commercially I would do so regardless
B. If I owned an apartment on a residential complex and wished to let it out I would not do so because of the risks
C. If I was an agent, I would be prepared to take the risk and advertise holiday rentals on a residential complex
D. If I was an agent, I would not be prepared to take the risk and I would not advertise holiday rentals on a residential complex
E. If I was an agent, I would take the risk and let out apartments on a residential complex but try to "stay under the radar"
Can Doreen set his up as the OP or will a moderator need to do it?
I posted info about the law on the official el mirador Facebook page a few months back, my comments were removed and I was banned from the page!!!
haha - you were the fly in their ointment I think!
Very silly to ignore it...
Can we add a poll to this thread? I would like to gauge the opinion of everyone taking part in this thread, especially those with strong beliefs either way on what they would or would not do right now given the information currently available. he questions I would like in the poll are as follows and you should be able to choose two answers, one as a hypothetical or real private owner and one as a hypothetical or real agent letting out holiday apartments on a residential complex:
A. If I owned an apartment on a residential complex and wished to let it out commercially I would do so regardless
B. If I owned an apartment on a residential complex and wished to let it out I would not do so because of the risks
C. If I was an agent, I would be prepared to take the risk and advertise holiday rentals on a residential complex
D. If I was an agent, I would not be prepared to take the risk and I would not advertise holiday rentals on a residential complex
E. If I was an agent, I would take the risk and let out apartments on a residential complex but try to "stay under the radar"
Can Doreen set his up as the OP or will a moderator need to do it?
Can I suggest you set up a poll on a new thread, CIM - proving difficult for me (okay, tiresome) - you need a main question, then options have to be short (under 100 characters, yours are not) ya di ya di ya :)
Even you think it's newsworthy 2 posts back.
If you want to be pedantic, take note of the word WHEN this happens it will be newsworthy. IMO receiving fines is not newsworthy yet. Paying them out of the payments from holidaymakers who will not receive their holiday, or a refund, now you are talking.
Added after 4 minutes:
As always we'll just have to wait and see what happens. It wouldn't surprise me if the fines that have been issues "expire" after a certain amount of time and nothing happens !!!
Still waiting for your expansion on this controversial post. In your opinion, how long will an owner have to not pay the issued fine, before it will expire.
Is this something that is written somewhere and you, as the 'authority' on this thread, have been keeping to yourself. Please, Mr Loaded, behave.
I have booked a holiday towards the end of this year in what would now appear to be an illegal letting.
When I started reading this post I wasn't too concerned but by the end it has managed to scare the pants off me!
tmfkahs talks about holidaymakers not getting their holidays or deposits back.
I realise in the great scheme of things my little holiday may not seem too important and it must be very worrying for some owners on residential complex's.
I look forward to my 2 weeks in Tenerife every year (wish it could be more) and it is sad to think how this may affect so many people, not only owners, but islanders as well, who work in and supply these complex's.
I will now have to decide whether to contact the person I am renting from and cancel to look for somewhere else or let it ride and cross my fingers ( which is not a good idea according to previous posts!)
I have booked a holiday towards the end of this year in what would now appear to be an illegal letting.
When I started reading this post I wasn't too concerned but by the end it has managed to scare the pants off me!
tmfkahs talks about holidaymakers not getting their holidays or deposits back.
I realise in the great scheme of things my little holiday may not seem too important and it must be very worrying for some owners on residential complex's.
I look forward to my 2 weeks in Tenerife every year (wish it could be more) and it is sad to think how this may affect so many people, not only owners, but islanders as well, who work in and supply these complex's.
I will now have to decide whether to contact the person I am renting from and cancel to look for somewhere else or let it ride and cross my fingers ( which is not a good idea according to previous posts!)
On the contrary your holiday is very important and it is vital to Tenerife that visitors like yourself continue to come over.
I'm sure you would get your money back in the event of the owner being forced to stop taking bookings and not wanting to honour future bookings.
In the mean time it wouldn't hurt to create a contingency plan if things do go wrong.
Added after 10 minutes:
If you want to be pedantic, take note of the word WHEN this happens it will be newsworthy. IMO receiving fines is not newsworthy yet. Paying them out of the payments from holidaymakers who will not receive their holiday, or a refund, now you are talking.
Added after 4 minutes:
Still waiting for your expansion on this controversial post. In your opinion, how long will an owner have to not pay the issued fine, before it will expire.
Is this something that is written somewhere and you, as the 'authority' on this thread, have been keeping to yourself. Please, Mr Loaded, behave.
Yes but what's "this"? you said "when this happens" but neglected to actually specify what "this" is.
And I don't think someone can accuse another of pedantry while persisting in calling someone with a screen name "Mr"......
I will answer your question about my remark, it was intended as a throwaway remark and I do not know that that will happen and I don't know anything regarding this that isn't in the public domain.
I just said it wouldn't surprise me.
I have booked a holiday towards the end of this year in what would now appear to be an illegal letting.
When I started reading this post I wasn't too concerned but by the end it has managed to scare the pants off me!
tmfkahs talks about holidaymakers not getting their holidays or deposits back.
I realise in the great scheme of things my little holiday may not seem too important and it must be very worrying for some owners on residential complex's.
I look forward to my 2 weeks in Tenerife every year (wish it could be more) and it is sad to think how this may affect so many people, not only owners, but islanders as well, who work in and supply these complex's.
I will now have to decide whether to contact the person I am renting from and cancel to look for somewhere else or let it ride and cross my fingers ( which is not a good idea according to previous posts!)
I would get in touch with them lef, just to check what their position is - I noted from another post of yours where you would be staying and someone did report there would be some fines issued there (or had already been, I haven't read back) ... I think you are coming over in November - I doubt anyone will have actually stopped honouring bookings by then even if they have had to take down their ad ... they might even express surprise when you get in touch as many owners are still completely unaware of the inspectors - you could always send them a link to this thread :)
carolethatch
17-07-2011, 11:20
I have booked a holiday towards the end of this year in what would now appear to be an illegal letting.
When I started reading this post I wasn't too concerned but by the end it has managed to scare the pants off me!
tmfkahs talks about holidaymakers not getting their holidays or deposits back.
I realise in the great scheme of things my little holiday may not seem too important and it must be very worrying for some owners on residential complex's.
I look forward to my 2 weeks in Tenerife every year (wish it could be more) and it is sad to think how this may affect so many people, not only owners, but islanders as well, who work in and supply these complex's.
I will now have to decide whether to contact the person I am renting from and cancel to look for somewhere else or let it ride and cross my fingers ( which is not a good idea according to previous posts!)
Trouble is if you are in an apartment that you like, with all the extras you want, do not think you will find this in the legal complexes as some off them that have been mentioned have left a lot to be desired as far as I'm concerned.
Trouble is if you are in an apartment that you like, with all the extras you want, do not think you will find this in the legal complexes as some off them that have been mentioned have left a lot to be desired as far as I'm concerned.
Coundn't agree more
I would get in touch with them lef, just to check what their position is - I noted from another post of yours where you would be staying and someone did report there would be some fines issued there (or had already been, I haven't read back) ... I think you are coming over in November - I doubt anyone will have actually stopped honouring bookings by then even if they have had to take down their ad ... they might even express surprise when you get in touch as many owners are still completely unaware of the inspectors - you could always send them a link to this thread :)
This will be a major headache and is the $64k question.
The €18k fine for illegally letting an apartment is for a SERIOUS infringement. It is still illegal even if the Ad has been taken down so no logic there I fear.
Lets assume that,so far, only 20 letters with fines have gone out. (We do not know if 1 has gone to the owner of the apartment you have booked, but Doreen suggests that some have been sent to Owners on the complex you have chosen).
On average 6 months bookings already taken.
26 weeks * 20 apartments = 520 families (weeks) paid for holidays that they will not get because, I think it would be highly unlikely that the authorities would say pay the fine but you can still honour your bookings. 'OK Guv, fully booked for the next 5 years' ......No way.
I agree with Doreen that there are owners that are blissfully unaware of this impending doom. Is the owner of your apartment still advertising it on the Internet?
Word will soon spread once these fines have hit, and €18K is a lot of money to find in one go. The fine is increased for a repeat offence. Would you, as an owner, risk it?
Where would one go to claim a refund in case of a cancellation due to the inspectors operations?
I doubt that you will be able to insure your holiday against cancellation due to the implementation of a Law, and private letting will not be covered by any travel association so, as I say, your call.
However, it is not all bad. Some people still think that nothing will happen.
Trouble is if you are in an apartment that you like, with all the extras you want, do not think you will find this in the legal complexes as some off them that have been mentioned have left a lot to be desired as far as I'm concerned.
I dont completly agree with this statment there a lot of very nice well equipped privatley owned legal apartments in Cristian Sur Tenerife Sur Pamola beach Victoria Court for example. There also some very basic apartments in some of these complexes where owners refuse to spend money to bring them up to date and thats where i think the inspectors should be concentrating hopefully this is a more balanced answer than you will not find this in a legal complex because its simply not the case. David
Agree with David 100% - we've spent several years updating our accommodation and it's a pleasure taking people in to the apartments and getting a "wow" from them. There is quality legal accommodation out there with everything the illegal ones offer and more.
Added after 8 minutes:
However, it is not all bad. Some people still think that nothing will happen.
Being a guy running a management company on a residetial complex (Windsor Park isn't it?) do you think or hope nothing will happen?
We have been through this before. It is happening. It has nothing to do with what I want. Armageddon has started (Finally, Doreen).
The whole of the illegal letting market will implode as soon as the first fine is forced to be paid. (this will be the THIS that will make it newsworthy, please keep up and as you said to me, read the post.) (As I said previously, the issuing of fines is not newsworthy as it has not been reported in the Local press or the press in the UK).
Already Sal and Lef are nervous, and many more are now planning holidays away from Tenerife (Cape Verde looks nice). The knock on effects for bookings and the deposits already taken are going to make for a shaky time.
What makes you so sure that deposits would be repaid in the event etc? Do you know all the owners of these illegally let apartments and know their ability to pay a €18k fine plus repay all payments and deposits taken, many are 12 months in advance? Another throw away remark. If I had prepaid, I would be very very nervous right now.
Where is the official paperwork involved in making a booking on-line and where would a disgruntled client go to try to get their money back if an owner was unable or unwilling to make a refund. A British Court? A Spanish Court? And at what cost?
We have been through all of this before on this and the old forum. No-one knows the answer and most have agreed to wait and see what happens.
So, I ask of Doreen, at the current rate of activity, when would it be best not to book at El Mirador from? ('I doubt if people will have stopped honouring their bookings in November').
What about the people that have been fined so far? Do you think they should continue to 'honour their bookings' with the risk of an even bigger fine.
Believe me Loaded, what I want has no bearing on this, it will be like a runaway train for many owners and you will be securely sat in your office in Paloma beach as the catastrophe happens. Just my opinion of course.
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